NationStates Jolt Archive

The Palestinians have to forgive the settlements, the economic marginalization, the bulldozings, the blood shed. That will be very hard.

The Israelis have to forgive the suicide murderers, the rocket attacks, the masscred Kibbutzes, four wars, the blood shed. That will also be very hard.

But if they don't, the only option is genocide of one side. And the Palestinians are onthe wrong side of the power equation.

Finally, someone talking some sense.


Long before 1948, Jabotinsky wrote one of the well known articles in Israel's pre-independence history, called The Iron Wall. This is from the last two paragraphs of the article, tranlsted from Hebrew:

As long as there is a spark of hope that they can get rid of us, they will not sell these hopes, not for any kind of sweet words or tasty morsels, because they are not a rabble but a nation, perhaps somewhat tattered, but still living. A living people makes such enormous concessions on such fateful questions only when there is no hope left. Only when not a single breach is visible in the iron wall, only then do extreme groups lose their sway, and influence transfers to moderate groups. Only then would these moderate groups come to us with proposals for mutual concessions. And only then will moderates offer suggestions for compromise on practical questions like a guarantee against expulsion, or equality and national autonomy.

I am optimistic that they will indeed be granted satisfactory assurances and that both peoples, like good neighbors, can then live in peace. But the only path to such an agreement is the iron wall, that is to say the strengthening of a government in Palestine without any kind of Arab influence, the one against which the Arabs are fighting. In other words, for us the only path to an agreement in the future is an absolute refusal of any attempts at an agreement now.

The way I see it, the Israeli-Arab relations in the past half a century is simply an attempt to implement Jabotinsky's Iron Wall in each side. Both us and the Palestinians try to make it clear to the other side that there is no hope for them to win this completely, and we're both here to stay.

The moment one of the sides (Hamas, Israeli far-right) forgets the aforementioned fact, the conflict returns to its original postion.

I am motivated by the principle of absolute justice that does not depend on laws or fashions. The creation of Israel was wrong. Time will not change that. Israel's actions are wrong. Time will not change that. Ever. Wrong remains wrong, no matter how much time passes. And everything that develops out of such wrong is equally wrong. I don't carer how nice some Israelis may be as long as they continue living on land where they just shouldn't be and as long as they keep the families who had their livelihood in this land from returning. How can you possibly justify the expulsion of a single Palestinian Arab to make room for a Jewish immigrant, let alone the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arabs? Does it matter that this was 60 years ago? No, it doesn't, because those who have suffered from this expulsion are still alive or have had children who are alive and wait to return. You are unable to see the magnitude of the inhumanity of what Jewish desire for land has caused. Although you criticize Israelis for some of their actions, you clearly are not willing to solve the root of this conflict. The root of this conflict is that Jews came to a land that had no space and no welcome for them. They came not in peace but with demand for land. That was evil and no passage of time will ever change that. Send them somewhere else and finally leave the Arabs alone. E.g. the US has plenty of space and the folks there are fond of Jews and their weird ideologies.
One question: would a state like Israel be created today if a group of Jews asked for it? Would the UN reach a decision to slice up somebody else's land to artificially create room for a bunch of people?

Justice is not your main concern. You can only hold people responsible for their own actions, not for the actions of others whether they be parents, or a foreign government.

I think that the creation of Israel was messy and a bad call at the time. However, people born on the land have rights. Not the right to suppress others, but a legitimate right to live in peace. Can we now remove all non-native Americans from the US, because the conquest of the land by their forefathers was unjust? Should the Turks return to central Asia? What about the Kelts?

If you had your way you would simply have the other group suffer. How can this be justice? Yes Israel has a responsibility towards the Arabs and Palestinians, but you offer no solutions, but only spread hate. You damage the cause of those you say to support… Please stop “helping” those who are down already. Who needs enemies with friends like you?

Victimhood has a time limit. Sixty years after events, if you're still paying the victim card, don't expect anyone to cash it.

You would be right if these people where no longer victims, however they are sadly still considered refugees with little or no rights.

The fence is around Israel, not Palestine. And even Israel has acknowledged the wrongness of the settlements and is trying to do something about it.
The fence is inside Israel cutting and cutting the Westbank in two enclosed spaces... You cannot travel freely within the westbank let alone travel abroad; the fence is an abomination.



Outright lie. Israel started ONE of the wars - in order to prevent the Arab nations completing their preparations to attack. Every other has been in response to attack upon Israel.
Suez, six-day, lebanon on miltiple occasions...

Both sides have demonstrated a decidedly schizophrenic attitude towards peace talks.
extremists on both sides that is
A decision the British had, as government of the region, the right to make. And one which cannot be undone.One cannot deny that the British government had the power to do so, however it can hardly be accepted as a right or legitimate action. This does not mean that Israel has not a legitimate right to exist. Israel has as much a right to existance as has Palestine

...they are sadly still considered refugees with little or no rights.

Most of them live all over the middle east, in Arab countries. The fact that they don't have rights there is not something Israel can do anything about. Instead of taking care of them, Arab leaders preferred leaving them to rot.

Most of them live all over the middle east, in Arab countries. The fact that they don't have rights there is not something Israel can do anything about. Instead of taking care of them, Arab leaders preferred leaving them to rot.

irrespective of Arab countries, Israel does have a responsibility towards these people even though it cannot grant them the right to return.

What is possible, is to step past the past. Israel and Palestine claim the same land. So the conflict can only end in one of two ways: negotiation, or genocide.

The Palestinians have to forgive the settlements, the economic marginalization, the bulldozings, the blood shed. That will be very hard.

The Israelis have to forgive the suicide murderers, the rocket attacks, the masscred Kibbutzes, four wars, the blood shed. That will also be very hard.

But if they don't, the only option is genocide of one side. And the Palestinians are onthe wrong side of the power equation.
Well, the Israeli jews are on the wrong side if you look at the demographic equation... Time is not on their side, really.

Well, the Israeli jews are on the wrong side if you look at the demographic equation... Time is not on their side, really.

Technology - and especially weapons technology - has rendered raw numbers more or less irrelevant. I'm not at all certain it will STAY that way, but it's the world we currently have.

Technology - and especially weapons technology - has rendered raw numbers more or less irrelevant. I'm not at all certain it will STAY that way, but it's the world we currently have.

Nono. I meant without conflict.

If no war breaks out, and the status quo continues, the jewish state will cease to exist as the jewish majority turns into a minority due to the "demographic bomb" - and that without the need to fire a single shot.

If no war breaks out, and the status quo continues, the jewish state will cease to exist as the jewish majority turns into a minority due to the "demographic bomb" - and that without the need to fire a single shot.

That's one of Hamas' goals, and some say it was even Arafat's - To prevent and foil any attempt to break the current status quo (whether by war or by peace), and to defeat Israel by doing so.

That's one of Hamas' goals, and some say it was even Arafat's - To prevent and foil any attempt to break the current status quo (whether by war or by peace), and to defeat Israel by doing so.

Yeah, the way the Palestinian leadership has used the Palestinian people (see the refugees, for example) for political ends are shameful and downright disgusting.

Justice is not your main concern. You can only hold people responsible for their own actions, not for the actions of others whether they be parents, or a foreign government. Their own actions are the living on land that their parents and grandparents forced from someone else. Continuing the sins of the parents means making them their own sin. And after all they elect the governments that cause suffering to Palestinians and they pay the taxes to keep up the oppression.

I think that the creation of Israel was messy and a bad call at the time. However, people born on the land have rights. Not the right to suppress others, but a legitimate right to live in peace. Can we now remove all non-native Americans from the US, because the conquest of the land by their forefathers was unjust? Should the Turks return to central Asia? What about the Kelts?The difference between e.g. the US and Israel is that the US has included the conquered into their state while Israelis keep Palestinian Arabs in a subhuman condition. I have always said that the best solution would be to make all Palestinian Arabs Israeli citizens.

If you had your way you would simply have the other group suffer. How can this be justice? Yes Israel has a responsibility towards the Arabs and Palestinians, but you offer no solutions, but only spread hate. You damage the cause of those you say to support… Please stop “helping” those who are down already. Who needs enemies with friends like you?Israel has no responsibility towards the Arabs. What kind of dismissive rhetoric is this? Israel is not a parent who looks after a child. Israel is a intruder, thief, and murderer. And Israel is worsening the conditions for Palestinian Arabs day by day. How can you possibly ignore that? They steadily expand the Jewish settlements in the West Bank. The only peace Israel is interested in is the peace of a former Palestine completely under Israeli rule. You let yourself be fooled by talks that draw the media, but you fail to see what actions are going on. What value have Israeli peace "offers" while they are still putting 20000 new settlers into the West Bank per year? How would you trust folks who do exactly the opposite of what their smooth words say?

Victimhood has a time limit. Sixty years after events, if you're still paying the victim card, don't expect anyone to cash it.
sixty weeks for the Rwandan genocide.
.
Unless of course it's the Holocaust Card, which has no expiration date whatsoever.yeah, but its a catchy name and.. Hollywood has been making films about it for the last sixty years.

Since someone mentioned the settlements:

West Bank settlements 'expanding'

Construction is continuing in dozens of Jewish settlements in the West Bank despite Israel's pledge to freeze their expansion, an campaign group has said.

Peace Now says Jewish population growth is three times higher in the area occupied in 1967 than in Israel itself.
Peace Now says there is continuing construction in 88 out of about 150 of the authorised settlements, in addition to the building of permanent structures in 34 unauthorised settlement outposts.

Settler leaders expressed pleasure about Peace Now's report, thanking it for "documenting their endeavour".
It said natural increase and the relocation of ultra-Orthodox families to settlements had led to the three-times higher population growth compared with in Israel.

A source in the Yesha council which represents the Jewish settlement movement said Peace Now's findings proved it had achieved an unstoppable momentum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7082629.stm

:(

Since someone mentioned the settlements:
(snip)

And again, I say that anybody who would renounce violence in the face of that is out of their mind. And anybody who would ask somebody to do so, other than a strict pacifist, does so for the sole purpose of furthering the agenda of those doing the building.

And again, I say that anybody who would renounce violence in the face of that is out of their mind. And anybody who would ask somebody to do so, other than a strict pacifist, does so for the sole purpose of furthering the agenda of those doing the building.

Well, I believe both sides must relent. The Palestinians must renounce violence. The Israelis must stop the building.

Well, I believe both sides must relent. The Palestinians must renounce violence. The Israelis must stop the building.

Except both sides also have asshole extremists who would turn on their own if it looked like "appeasement" or "capitulation" was about to happen. The most visible example is "Israeli National Hero" (sarcasm here folks) Yigal Amir.

Well, I believe both sides must relent. The Palestinians must renounce violence. The Israelis must stop the building.

The Israelis ought not to stop the building, but they ought to get the bloody hell away from land that isn't theirs, and stop disregarding international law.

It's like if I kept moving the fence between my house and my neighbor's, time and again, appropriating for myself his property, and then he came to kick me in the nuts. Sure, I could call the police about him kicking me in the nuts, and they'd come and give him trouble about it, but if the next day I moved the fence again and he kicked me in the gonads again, and the day afterwards I did it again and got another groin kick, complaining at the police constantly and whining for him to stop kicking me while at the same time not stopping from my own illegal actions, how long till the police lost patience with me?

That's exactly how we ought to be feeling about Israel right now. Sure, Palestinians fire rockets at them and that's blatant violence, but Israel just keeps piling on their damn settlements and they keep making sure to get what they know is coming as a direct consequence for their own reprehensible actions.

Since someone mentioned the settlements...

Believe me, this is frustrating to me more than it is to you.:mad:

Well, I believe both sides must relent. The Palestinians must renounce violence. The Israelis must stop the building.Israelis won't stop the building, regardless what Palestinians may do. Btw the building is the greater and more lasting form of violence. And what about the wall/fence and what about the water usage?

Believe me, this is frustrating to me more than it is to you.How so and in what way?