NationStates Jolt Archive

So, everybody, what's up? My first post in a long, long time.

At my school (high school, ages 14-18) there was a pro-life demonstration, where a lot of kids put the tape over there mouths saying "LIFE." (If you live in the US, you probably have seen this.) They went the whole day without saying anything because of the aforementioned tape. It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

So, the only really bad thing was that a couple of kids really are rabid about it. They asked me if I want one, and I said no thanks. They proceeded to ask me if I was pro-life. I said no. They launched into a tirade about how I'm a baby-killer, and that I was going to hell. Continued this for five minutes, until I said, fuck this, I'm out, and just left. There's no point arguing with some people.

So, my question is this: what are your views on abortion? Personally, I believe in the fundamental right of a woman (or man, but that would be wierd) to choose. What do you think/feel? And isn't it annoying when people are so rabidly committed to a belief that they refuse to reason?

I think there are both morally wrong and morally viable reasons to have an abortion, I think abortions should be legal without restriction up to the 12th-14th week and after that they should be legal for medical reasons approved by a doctor.

I personally wouldn't ever have an abortion, but it's not right for me to make that choice for anyone else.

I think there are both morally wrong and morally viable reasons to have an abortion, I think abortions should be legal without restriction up to the 12th-14th week and after that they should be legal for medical reasons approved by a doctor.

I personally wouldn't ever have an abortion, but it's not right for me to make that choice for anyone else.

Nor would I...

But that's only 'cause it'd be biologically impossible, what with the fact that I've male bits instead of female ones. :D

I think there are both morally wrong and morally viable reasons to have an abortion, I think abortions should be legal without restriction up to the 12th-14th week and after that they should be legal for medical reasons approved by a doctor.

I personally wouldn't ever have an abortion, but it's not right for me to make that choice for anyone else.

^^ Ditto. My beliefs aren't your beliefs aren't his beliefs, etc. So long as you don't try to stop me from living my life the way I want to, I won't stop you.

Baby killers unite.

Today was also Dead Baby Joke at my school, thanks to yours truly. Thought it'd fit quite nicely with the pro-lifers as rabid as they are around here.

Also, I think Arnold should be able to have an abortion if he so chooses.

Baby killers unite.

*froths at the mouth*

*Tapes your mouth*

I really didn't know rabid pro-lifers taped their mouths shut. Best thing they've done in a while. :p

I think there are both morally wrong and morally viable reasons to have an abortion, I think abortions should be legal without restriction up to the 12th-14th week and after that they should be legal for medical reasons approved by a doctor.

I personally wouldn't ever have an abortion, but it's not right for me to make that choice for anyone else.

While I don't see abortion as morally wrong, nor believe that the limitation stated above is fine, I agree with the rest of what Smunk has to say. Abortion is a difficult choice and should remain the choice of the woman; one between her and her doctor.

It is definitely important to have one's doctor involved so that possible complications are minimised by having a professional aid the woman in the process. :)

Additionally, pro-choicers are just as pro-life as pro-lifers claim to be. The only difference is that pro-choicers put the life of the actual living person ahead of the clump of cells that is yet to be sentient and is not considered living (note that life is different than living; as parasites are a life form but one cannot consider them living because they feed off of a host in order to subsist. And no, this is not equating foetuses to parasites; it's demonstrating the difference between life and living).

I think there are both morally wrong and morally viable reasons to have an abortion, I think abortions should be legal without restriction up to the 12th-14th week and after that they should be legal for medical reasons approved by a doctor.

I personally wouldn't ever have an abortion, but it's not right for me to make that choice for anyone else.

My wife and I hold this position. We consider abortion a personal moral wrong... And personally would never use such unless there was a medical danger to her. But do not feel this is not a choice which should be forced upon another.

At my school (high school, ages 14-18) there was a pro-life demonstration, where a lot of kids put the tape over there mouths saying "LIFE." (If you live in the US, you probably have seen this.)

Actually, I've never heard of such a thing. There are a couple of old people who stand outside Planned Parenthood in my town, but that's the extent of anti-abortion activism I've seen. The tape thing is kinda disturbing,

So, the only really bad thing was that a couple of kids really are rabid about it. They asked me if I want one, and I said no thanks. They proceeded to ask me if I was pro-life. I said no. They launched into a tirade about how I'm a baby-killer, and that I was going to hell. Continued this for five minutes, until I said, fuck this, I'm out, and just left. There's no point arguing with some people.

You'll find that "pro-lifers" are such for emotive or religious reasons, and as such arguing with them is generally going to get you nowhere. There are a lot of issues where people are comfortable believing something and absolutely, utterly refuse to seriously consider any alternative.

So, my question is this: what are your views on abortion? Personally, I believe in the fundamental right of a woman (or man, but that would be wierd) to choose. What do you think/feel? And isn't it annoying when people are so rabidly committed to a belief that they refuse to reason?

To quote the Uncyclopedia

Like other things, abortion both has a very large positive and negative side. The positive side is that you get to murder not-yet-alive babies. The negative side is women get to choose.

But seriously, if a woman wants to have an abortion it's nobody's business but her own and her doctor's. I understand people have religious objections to it, but they have no right interjecting themselves into the situation on their God's behalf, especially not by using the state.

So, everybody, what's up? My first post in a long, long time.

At my school (high school, ages 14-18) there was a pro-life demonstration, where a lot of kids put the tape over there mouths saying "LIFE." (If you live in the US, you probably have seen this.) They went the whole day without saying anything because of the aforementioned tape. It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

So, the only really bad thing was that a couple of kids really are rabid about it. They asked me if I want one, and I said no thanks. They proceeded to ask me if I was pro-life. I said no. They launched into a tirade about how I'm a baby-killer, and that I was going to hell. Continued this for five minutes, until I said, fuck this, I'm out, and just left. There's no point arguing with some people.

So, my question is this: what are your views on abortion? Personally, I believe in the fundamental right of a woman (or man, but that would be wierd) to choose. What do you think/feel? And isn't it annoying when people are so rabidly committed to a belief that they refuse to reason?

Start punching their taped mouths. That should really shut them up.

EDIT:Telegram concerning yer sig, there.

Baby killers unite.

Ahh. The pithy wit of the anti-choice movement. :p

It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

Only by proxy; religious, ideological indoctrination. Don't blame them.

Also, I think Arnold should be able to have an abortion if he so chooses.

its not a tumor!

its not a tumor!

ahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhaahahahhaha
That was completely necessary.

I think abortions are morally wrong and consider them to be murder of an innocent life. However, I know that not everyone shares my views, and I don't think it's the Government place to choose side, every person should choose for him/herself.

Nor would I...

But that's only 'cause it'd be biologically impossible, what with the fact that I've male bits instead of female ones. :D

We are both impeded by the same biological attributes, then. However, I would still try to have an abortion, just to show how much I support it.

I think abortions are morally wrong and consider them to be murder of an innocent life. However, I know that not everyone shares my views, and I don't think it's the Government place to choose side, every person should choose for him/herself.

do you extend this 'live and let kill' idea to other sorts of murders?

ok personally i had to put up with these idiots today the only thing is that im pregnant. so today i get into my class at the end of the day AFTER PUTTING UP WITH THESE STUPID SILENT PEOPLE ALL DAY. she looks at me and starts threatening me that if i have an abortion she's gonna kick my ass etc etc. well i tell her that people who want to push their stupid beliefs on others suck (i dont believe in abortion and im not having one but i think the mother should have a choice seperation of religion and state etc etc.) she starts crying(actual tears)!!!!!!!!!! tells the teacher i insulted her and cussed her out the teacher calls the principal and in the meantime i hear her saying that if i wasn't pregnant she'd kick my ass. is it just me or does she sound just a bit crazy?? she voiced her opinion i voiced mine......
what could the principal possibly do....damn this pisses me off. if you dont believe in abortion fine dont have one but you cant make the choice for other people. plus if a lady really wanted to get rid of the baby all she'd have to do was do crack or fall down some steps or something.:headbang:

It's becoming a slight issue in the UK again, where 83% of the population support the woman's right to choose - link (http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2197882,00.html) - the interested parties' opinions are in the link.

I'd like a real reason against a woman's right to choose beyond 'right to life', with which I have issues - where does this 'right to life' come from?

Too many abortions - Lord Steele (http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2197924,00.html) - I can't see any reason proposed in there aside from the general attitude that abortion is inherently wrong, but why?

Further thoughts by Lord Steele (http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,,2197439,00.html)

While I don't see abortion as morally wrong, nor believe that the limitation stated above is fine, I agree with the rest of what Smunk has to say. Abortion is a difficult choice and should remain the choice of the woman; one between her and her doctor.

what's wrong with the limitation?

Next year, bring a marker and write "RAPE" over the tape, as they clearly feel that rape victims should be forced to carry the babies to birth. :headbang:

abortion


should be mandatory.
except during the years of 28-32, during which time all fertile women
must be pregnant at all times. except for one month after giving birth of course.


:upyours::fluffle:

I think that women should have the ability to have an abortion or not. At least up to a point I don't think embryos abd fetuses possess true personhood and thus don't possess rights. However, since abortion is the worse way one can control one's fertility I think comprehensive sex eductaion and state-subsidized birth control should be enacted. It seems to keep the abortion rate relatively low in Western Europe.

ok personally i had to put up with these idiots today the only thing is that im pregnant. so today i get into my class at the end of the day AFTER PUTTING UP WITH THESE STUPID SILENT PEOPLE ALL DAY. she looks at me and starts threatening me that if i have an abortion she's gonna kick my ass etc etc. well i tell her that people who want to push their stupid beliefs on others suck (i dont believe in abortion and im not having one but i think the mother should have a choice seperation of religion and state etc etc.) she starts crying(actual tears)!!!!!!!!!! tells the teacher i insulted her and cussed her out the teacher calls the principal and in the meantime i hear her saying that if i wasn't pregnant she'd kick my ass. is it just me or does she sound just a bit crazy?? she voiced her opinion i voiced mine......
what could the principal possibly do....damn this pisses me off. if you dont believe in abortion fine dont have one but you cant make the choice for other people. plus if a lady really wanted to get rid of the baby all she'd have to do was do crack or fall down some steps or something.:headbang:

Your preggers? Do tell.

what's wrong with the limitation?

What's right with it other than the idea that 'the baby is alive' - without getting into a debate about what alive is, because I really don't think it matters, why should the decision change - if a mother feels for some reason that she cannot bear the child, what's the difference?

It's alive it's alive they all cry - but what does that mean?

Is it not morally wrong to force a mother, and let's face it she's the one with the ultimate responsibility for the child, to give birth to a child she doesn't want, or can't see herself supporting, or feels that it's life quality will be too poor?

Is it not morally wrong to the child as well?

No one wants to be in an abortion clinic.

What's needed is increased education and increased availability of contraceptives to help people be more responsible, in terms of STDs as well as pregnancy - not making decisions on a mother and her potential child for her.

abortion


should be mandatory.
except during the years of 28-32, during which time all fertile women
must be pregnant at all times. except for one month after giving birth of course.


:upyours::fluffle:

I'm suprised you don't think abortion isn't some government conspiracy to invade iran. ;) (JOKING) But really not cool, my mom didn't have me until she was 33.

I think that women should have the ability to have an abortion or not. At least up to a point I don't think embryos abd fetuses possess true personhood and thus don't possess rights. However, since abortion is the worse way one can control one's fertility I think comprehensive sex eductaion and state-subsidized birth control should be enacted. It seems to keep the abortion rate relatively low in Western Europe.

But then teh wiminz will become total sluts and have sex with any guy that passes! :eek:






You know, now that I think about it, that's not a bad idea....

So, my question is this: what are your views on abortion? Personally, I believe in the fundamental right of a woman (or man, but that would be wierd) to choose. What do you think/feel? And isn't it annoying when people are so rabidly committed to a belief that they refuse to reason?

Prt 1. I have no problem with murder so im good with abortion. Prt 2. Yes

You know, this entire debate is kind of pointless. I mean, honestly what is the point in debating whether pro-life or pro-choice is better?

If you believe that babies are alive as soon as the sperm hits the egg then you are going to say that abortion is murder and unless you have very little concience you won't do it.

By contrast, if you don't believe that life starts until the baby pops of oh his or her mother then you would say that pro-choice is right cause, I mean, how can you kill something that isn't alive?

In general these beliefs are formed by the religious affiliation of a person so unless you want to get into a religious debate you aren't every going to change someones mind.

Me? I am not going to tell you what I am for because at this time I have no desire to inflict my beliefs on other people about this topic.

Those people that made that protest are you school and reacted so crazily to your being pregnant are just wackos. They have no right to get that up in your face about it. Unfortunately many Christians (I say that cause Christianity is the primary pro-life religion) are way to zealous in their attempts to save what they call "life"

So, just remember those people out front aren't going to help those who really need their counseling, they are just going to irritate those who have already made up their mind.

Oh, and also, it's useless to argue with anyone unless you bring up religion (or possibly science but I don't know what the mass consensus has declared so, wouldn't use that as an argument).

P.S. yes there are people who are Christians who are pro-choice and yes there are atheists who are pro-life. It's not totally religious based but for the mass majority, it is.

What's right with it other than the idea that 'the baby is alive' - without getting into a debate about what alive is, because I really don't think it matters, why should the decision change - if a mother feels for some reason that she cannot bear the child, what's the difference?
so, you support unrestricted abortions up to.....what? the due date?



Is it not morally wrong to force a mother, and let's face it she's the one with the ultimate responsibility for the child, to give birth to a child she doesn't want, or can't see herself supporting, or feels that it's life quality will be too poor?

Is it not morally wrong to the child as well?

No one wants to be in an abortion clinic.

What's needed is increased education and increased availability of contraceptives to help people be more responsible, in terms of STDs as well as pregnancy - not making decisions on a mother and her potential child for her.
I am not forcing anyone to do anything, surely you can figure out by 14 weeks if you want the kid or not, after that maybe you should just put it up for adoption unless you know there is a medical reason to abort.

You know, this entire debate is kind of pointless. I mean, honestly what is the point in debating whether pro-life or pro-choice is better?

well, considering that we can objectively demonstrate the badness of the anti-choice peoples' arguments, and can also demonstrate that they for the most part don't even believe their bullshit themselves, i'd say it actually has the possibility of being one of the more productive social and ethical arguments we can have.

I'm suprised you don't think abortion isn't some government conspiracy to invade iran. ;) (JOKING) But really not cool, my mom didn't have me until she was 33.

oop. sorry. looks like we'll have to send out the morality police and have one of those post-birth abortions.
it really is sad, but hey kid, it really wasn't your mother's choice to choose.
you have no one but her to blame for putting you in this situation.
it can be ugly.
but try not to be too bitter towards her.
at least you know it is for the best.
you have 36 hours to say your goodbyes.
:mp5:

last time i checked, it's a free country - yeah?

pro-lifers have as much right to protest as pro-choice advocates

I have no qualms about putting my views forward because it's not about trying to convince someone else - it's what I believe

I'm Christian and I do believe that an embryo is life - it may not be in the form of a human body but it is a package of human life - so abortion has never been an option for me and it also effects how I feel about other issues to do with genetics, etc

Do my convictions always rest easy with me? No. I'm human after all and can't claim to have the definitive answer on anything. And I constantly seek to analyse and critique my own views as well as that of others.

So I'm pro-life but I'm also pro-choice - God gave each individual free will and it is not for me to try and take that from another person. And basically I see it like this - wrong or right, it's legal. All the postulating in the world isn't going to change that.

so, you support unrestricted abortions up to.....what? the due date?

To be honest, to some extent I do - I'd even go so far to say that, once a child is born, it's still allowed given court involvement to ascertain whether better options are available, such as care, adoption or other.

I say this because I don't believe a mother makes the decision to kill her child lightly, and if they do, well they'll do it anyway. I do think it's a damn hard decision to make after 2-3 months given it's been noticed.

I am not forcing anyone to do anything, surely you can figure out by 14 weeks if you want the kid or not, after that maybe you should just put it up for adoption unless you know there is a medical reason to abort.

I'd never suggest that you personally would force anyone to do anything - I think in various cases, aspects do not become apparent until after 14, 18 or 30 weeks at which point, a decision should still be an option.

My underlying point is that I do not think anyone just 'has an abortion' after 2-3 months, I think there are very real reasons for doing so, reasons that involve providing a decent quality of life.

I would want anyone with those decisions in mind to be able to safely see a doctor and discuss those concerns and for the doctor to ascertain and provide honest advice as to the legitimacy of those concerns, and provide alternatives as well - but if there's adamancy, and I doubt that comes from a careless attitude, the decision should remain as an option.

I'm sure my points can be taken apart bit by bit but my fundamental reasoning is that a decision should be based on the best interests of both the mother and child, not on a vague 'right to life', which I feel leads to tragedy in more cases than those abortions that are perceived to be taken lightly.

So, everybody, what's up? My first post in a long, long time.

At my school (high school, ages 14-18) there was a pro-life demonstration, where a lot of kids put the tape over there mouths saying "LIFE." (If you live in the US, you probably have seen this.) They went the whole day without saying anything because of the aforementioned tape. It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

So, the only really bad thing was that a couple of kids really are rabid about it. They asked me if I want one, and I said no thanks. They proceeded to ask me if I was pro-life. I said no. They launched into a tirade about how I'm a baby-killer, and that I was going to hell. Continued this for five minutes, until I said, fuck this, I'm out, and just left. There's no point arguing with some people.

So, my question is this: what are your views on abortion? Personally, I believe in the fundamental right of a woman (or man, but that would be wierd) to choose. What do you think/feel? And isn't it annoying when people are so rabidly committed to a belief that they refuse to reason?

Me thinks the gov't shouldn't have the power to say that women can't have a procedure if they so desire. I also fail to see how us men can have a view since we do not carry a child. If the gov't feels they need to pass legislation, I say that only women should have a say in such an event.

My issue with abortion is that it leads to less responsibility in terms of using contraceptives in sex - this leads to STDs as well as pregnancy. Less responsibility leading to pregnancy is also a social cost, especially in a free health service, as well as a personal cost in that the forms of abortion generally used can lead to less chance of later pregnancy.

Both males and females should be made strongly aware of the issues as a personal, physical danger and not because it's disgusting or immoral or however advertising tends to approach these things.

And it should not be an issue of 'right to life' because that's simply saying birth should happen at any cost because, well because of what?

EDIT: Please note Cat-Tribes response below and my contrite retraction on this.

Me thinks the gov't shouldn't have the power to say that women can't have a procedure if they so desire. I also fail to see how us men can have a view since we do not carry a child. If the gov't feels they need to pass legislation, I say that only women should have a say in such an event.

I'm a woman and I do think that men can and should have a view. Yes, we women do physically hold the responsibility during a pregnancy but a man has an equal and valid connection with the unborn child. It may be very different in how it's felt and expressed [can't say what it's like as I'm not a guy:p] but men are part of the process and should be part of the outcome, whatever that may be. I'm not saying that men have the right to impose their will on a woman but I don't think it's right for a woman to impose her will on a man, either. Unless a potential father doesn't want to be any part of the decision making process or he poses some form of threat or danger to the potential mother, I think he should be able to contribute and have his desires heard.

so, you support unrestricted abortions up to.....what? the due date?




I am not forcing anyone to do anything, surely you can figure out by 14 weeks if you want the kid or not, after that maybe you should just put it up for adoption unless you know there is a medical reason to abort.

This isn't aimed at you, Smunkee. It is just relevant to the point.

Very few abortions occur after 14 weeks and those are almost all for medical reasons.

From the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm) (emphasis added, table references removed):

In 2003, for women from areas where weeks of gestation at the time of abortion were adequately reported, 59% of reported legal induced abortions were known to have been obtained at <8 weeks' gestation and 87% at <13 weeks. Overall, 26% of abortions were known to have been obtained at <6 weeks' gestation, 18% at 7 weeks, and 15% at 8 weeks. Few reported abortions occurred after 15 weeks' gestation: 4.1% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks.

My issue with abortion is that it leads to less responsibility in terms of using contraceptives in sex - this leads to STDs as well as pregnancy. Less responsibility leading to pregnancy is also a social cost, especially in a free health service, as well as a personal cost in that the forms of abortion generally used can lead to less chance of later pregnancy.

WTF are you talking about? Do you have any evidence that availability of safe abortion leads to less responsibility in terms of using contraceptives?

My thread on worldwide abortion rates deals with evidence that abortion rates are actually lower where abortion is legal, because those countries are also where contraception is more available.

Both males and females should be made strongly aware of the issues as a personal, physical danger and not because it's disgusting or immoral or however advertising tends to approach these things.

Again, WTF are you talking about? Abortion is an extremely safe procedure, safer than pregnancy or child birth. Rates of serious side-effects are extremely low.

Everyone should use contraceptives if they do not wish to be pregnant. Abortion shouldn't be used merely as an alternative to contraceptives.

Me thinks the gov't shouldn't have the power to say that women can't have a procedure if they so desire. I also fail to see how us men can have a view since we do not carry a child. If the gov't feels they need to pass legislation, I say that only women should have a say in such an event.

I think men have an interest in the liberty of everyone and in everyone's rights to control over their own body, individual sovereignty, privacy, etc.

We all have an interest in freedom.

You know, this entire debate is kind of pointless. I mean, honestly what is the point in debating whether pro-life or pro-choice is better?

If you believe that babies are alive as soon as the sperm hits the egg then you are going to say that abortion is murder and unless you have very little concience you won't do it.

By contrast, if you don't believe that life starts until the baby pops of oh his or her mother then you would say that pro-choice is right cause, I mean, how can you kill something that isn't alive?

In general these beliefs are formed by the religious affiliation of a person so unless you want to get into a religious debate you aren't every going to change someones mind.

Me? I am not going to tell you what I am for because at this time I have no desire to inflict my beliefs on other people about this topic.

Those people that made that protest are you school and reacted so crazily to your being pregnant are just wackos. They have no right to get that up in your face about it. Unfortunately many Christians (I say that cause Christianity is the primary pro-life religion) are way to zealous in their attempts to save what they call "life"

So, just remember those people out front aren't going to help those who really need their counseling, they are just going to irritate those who have already made up their mind.

Oh, and also, it's useless to argue with anyone unless you bring up religion (or possibly science but I don't know what the mass consensus has declared so, wouldn't use that as an argument).

P.S. yes there are people who are Christians who are pro-choice and yes there are atheists who are pro-life. It's not totally religious based but for the mass majority, it is.

Abortion isn't merely a matter of debate. It is a matter of Constitutionally-protected liberty.

Even if you believe that an embryo has personhood (which is the relevant question, not life), a woman still has a right to control over her own body. No other rights trump that one.

WTF are you talking about? Do you have any evidence that availability of safe abortion leads to less responsibility in terms of using contraceptives?

My thread on worldwide abortion rates deals with evidence that abortion rates are actually lower where abortion is legal, because those countries are also where contraception is more available.


Again, WTF are you talking about? Abortion is an extremely safe procedure, safer than pregnancy or child birth. Rates of serious side-effects are extremely low.

Everyone should use contraceptives if they do not wish to be pregnant. Abortion shouldn't be used merely as an alternative to contraceptives.

To both I'll admit it's off the top of my head and I'm more than happy to revise my thoughts on that regard.

I'm sure I've heard that the scraping of the womb involved in abortion decreases the chances of later pregnancy but that is indeed just hearsay I guess and I never really looked into it.

In terms of increased lack of responsibility, I utterly retract that abortion is at fault but my point is that instead of limiting abortion, we need to stress greater responsibility, not just in terms of pregnancy but also STDs.

That responsibility is not aimed at stopping people having sex, but more about having safer sex where possible.

Let the moralists practice their morals by (GASP) NOT GETTING AN ABORTION.
Let everyone else do with their own bodies as they see fit. If my girlfriend got pregnant right now, we would abort, because it would ruin our goals for the next few years.

Seriously: If it's so wrong, then why not just use it as a lever to lift yourself up even higher above the sinful masses? An embryo, or hell, even a first trimester fetus, is a parasitic life-form incapable of survival outside of the mother's womb. Even the most state of the art medical equipment cannot allow a first trimester fetus to grow into an adult.

To both I'll admit it's off the top of my head and I'm more than happy to revise my thoughts on that regard.

I'm sure I've heard that the scraping of the womb involved in abortion decreases the chances of later pregnancy but that is indeed just hearsay I guess and I never really looked into it.

Not to rub it in, but rather to show I'm not talking out my ass. Here are some figures and sources:

Abortion is one of the safest surgical procedures for women in the U.S. The risk of death associated with abortion is approximately 0.6 per 100,000 abortions, and the risk of major complications is less than 1%. (Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); The Guttmacher Institute (http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/safety.html)).

Abortion is safer than childbirth in the U.S. The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion. Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion, compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth. (Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); The Guttmacher Institute (http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/safety.html).)


In terms of increased lack of responsibility, I utterly retract that abortion is at fault but my point is that instead of limiting abortion, we need to stress greater responsibility, not just in terms of pregnancy but also STDs.

That responsibility is not aimed at stopping people having sex, but more about having safer sex where possible.

Agreed. We need to encourage safer sex -- including the use of contraceptives. Among other benefits, this will reduce unwanted pregnancies.

I think men have an interest in the liberty of everyone and in everyone's rights to control over their own body, individual sovereignty, privacy, etc.

We all have an interest in freedom.

Quoted for absolute and undeniable truth. Saying men shouldn't have a say in abortion rights because they don't affect us is like saying white people shouldn't have an opinion on segregation, because it doesn't affect us. But, to quote a favorite speech of mine:

If there is a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there is a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for their prescription drugs, and having to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandparent. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties.

It is that fundamental belief -- It is that fundamental belief: I am my brother's keeper. I am my sister's keeper-- that makes this country work. It's what allows us to pursue our individual dreams and yet still come together as one American family.E pluribus unum: "Out of many, one."

Essentially, anybody can believe in justice, in liberty and freedom-- even if the freedom in question isn't one that has a direct impact on them. Indeed, I'd be willing to say that your true commitment to liberty is tested not by the cases where it benefits you, but the cases that where it may have no direct benefit for you. Anybody can support liberty in cases where it's their own being threatened.

Not to rub it in, but rather to show I'm not talking out my ass. Here are some figures and sources:

Abortion is one of the safest surgical procedures for women in the U.S. The risk of death associated with abortion is approximately 0.6 per 100,000 abortions, and the risk of major complications is less than 1%. (Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); The Guttmacher Institute (http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/safety.html)).

Abortion is safer than childbirth in the U.S. The risk of death when a pregnancy is continued to birth is about 11 times as great as the risk of death from induced abortion. Each year, about 10 women, on average, die from induced abortion, compared with about 260 who die from pregnancy and childbirth. (Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm); The Guttmacher Institute (http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/safety.html).)

Well, this only strengthens my thoughts on abortion :)

I'd not thought it led to serious medical concerns, more to decreased chance of later pregnancy, mostly in terms of scraping but, even on that, I confess I had not looked up actual facts and I appear to be wrong.

Does a past abortion (or more than one) affect my chances of getting pregnant?


Expert Answers

Probably not. However, in rare cases, multiple dilations and curettages (the cleaning out of the uterus, also known as a D&C) can cause some scarring at the top of the cervix or inside the uterus. A procedure called hysteroscopy (when a small camera is placed through your cervix into your uterine cavity) can be used to check for this problem and can usually repair the scar tissue at the same time. But even if that's not the case for you, you should know that any procedure that dilates the cervix (a necessary step during most abortions) can weaken it. So if you've had more than one abortion and you get pregnant again later on, you may find that you have what's known as an incompetent cervix — a cervix that starts dilating prematurely. This can sometimes be treated with a stitch to keep the cervix closed, called a cerclage. On the bright side, having conceived before proves that you ovulate and that your fallopian tubes are open.

With the help of Robert Jansen, a clinical professor of reproductive medicine at the University of Sydney in Australia. Dr. Jansen is also head of the Department of Reproductive Endocrinology & Infertility at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Sydney, the medical director of Sydney IVF, one of Australia's leading fertility clinics, and the author of Overcoming Infertility: A Compassionate Resource for Getting Pregnant. You can learn more about the book or search Dr. Jansen's extensive glossary of infertility terms at http://www.jansen.com.au

Link (http://www.babycenter.com/400_does-a-past-abortion-affect-my-chances-of-getting-pregnant_505279_1000.bc?Ad=com.bc.common.AdInfo%4062f3e06a)

This isn't aimed at you, Smunkee. It is just relevant to the point.

Very few abortions occur after 14 weeks and those are almost all for medical reasons.

From the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm) (emphasis added, table references removed):

In 2003, for women from areas where weeks of gestation at the time of abortion were adequately reported, 59% of reported legal induced abortions were known to have been obtained at <8 weeks' gestation and 87% at <13 weeks. Overall, 26% of abortions were known to have been obtained at <6 weeks' gestation, 18% at 7 weeks, and 15% at 8 weeks. Few reported abortions occurred after 15 weeks' gestation: 4.1% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks.

thank you for posting that! It confirms that there is likely nothing wrong with my stance of unrestricted abortions up to about 14 weeks and a doctor's approval after that (you know in case there is a medical reason)

thank you for posting that! It confirms that there is likely nothing wrong with my stance of unrestricted abortions up to about 14 weeks and a doctor's approval after that (you know in case there is a medical reason)

Lol - not at your point but that I suspect we're drawing different opinions from the same evidence - are you saying that a person cannot have an abortion after 14 weeks without a doctor's permission?

And what is that permission based on? Whether it's necessary or whether it's safe?

Anyway, opinions are all valuable :)

My 'girl' got pregnant, and had an abortion (at just under 3 months no less). I dont wish one upon anyone, but I feel it can be necessary.

It should ALWAYS be an option, but there should be gentle (especially financial) encouragement to keep it.


Oh yeah, I would have just laughed at the person and walked off, anyone ever call me a baby killer, I'll knock them out, no doubt.

Whether or not you agree with abortion, making it illegal will not help anything other than send a clear message to women that you think they don't know how to make responsible choices for their own bodies and life.

If you think abortion rates are too high, then more needs to be done in sex education to encourage contraceptive use and responsible choice if pregnancy does happen.

what's wrong with the limitation?

For me, in theory it's a viable idea, but in practice it limits the amount of time to make the choice because not all women are able to make the choice so quickly and may not realise they're pregnant for a while. Ideally there should be no limitation, but we don't live in an ideal world. But, if we did live in an ideal world, everyone would have equal access to contraceptives and sexual education, where abortion rates would be next to none but we don't. :)

Lol - not at your point but that I suspect we're drawing different opinions from the same evidence - are you saying that a person cannot have an abortion after 14 weeks without a doctor's permission?
where I live now? I don't think they can.

And what is that permission based on? Whether it's necessary or whether it's safe?
I would assume that a doctor would consider if it were safe or not, and if there was a compelling medical reason, and also would consider the patients needs. It really should be something that is between a woman and her doctor.

I think there are both morally wrong and morally viable reasons to have an abortion, I think abortions should be legal without restriction up to the 12th-14th week and after that they should be legal for medical reasons approved by a doctor.

I personally wouldn't ever have an abortion, but it's not right for me to make that choice for anyone else.

Second post says it all.

My own opinion on whether abortion is right or wrong is irrelevant. The question is whether a woman has a right to control her own body and whether that right trumps another's right to survive. Well, until we start strapping people down and forcibly taking their kidneys to give to the needy, I think we know the answer to that. *nod*

Pro-choice, anti-abortion, pro-legal, safe, and rare.

That probably about says it all.

Personally, I think everyone should be chemically sterilised... something in the water maybe.

Let them apply specifically for their sterilisation to be revoked for a set period, when they want a baby.

Boom. Abortion argument over.

It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

So, the only really bad thing was that a couple of kids really are rabid about it. They asked me if I want one, and I said no thanks. They proceeded to ask me if I was pro-life. I said no. They launched into a tirade about how I'm a baby-killer, and that I was going to hell. Continued this for five minutes, until I said, fuck this, I'm out, and just left.

How many wearing the tape were coerced do you think?

This isn't aimed at you, Smunkee. It is just relevant to the point.

Very few abortions occur after 14 weeks and those are almost all for medical reasons.

From the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm) (emphasis added, table references removed):

In 2003, for women from areas where weeks of gestation at the time of abortion were adequately reported, 59% of reported legal induced abortions were known to have been obtained at <8 weeks' gestation and 87% at <13 weeks. Overall, 26% of abortions were known to have been obtained at <6 weeks' gestation, 18% at 7 weeks, and 15% at 8 weeks. Few reported abortions occurred after 15 weeks' gestation: 4.1% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks.
Thanks again, CT, for a welcome injection of reality. Such facts immediately show the fallacy of most anti-choice propaganda about what abortion is and how it is done, and are strong evidence that women and doctors are perfectly capable of making this decision between them, without governmental interference.

Abortion isn't merely a matter of debate. It is a matter of Constitutionally-protected liberty.

Even if you believe that an embryo has personhood (which is the relevant question, not life), a woman still has a right to control over her own body. No other rights trump that one.
My position in a nutshell.

This statement should be printed on refrigerator magnets, so people can remind themselves of it several times a day.

So, my question is this: what are your views on abortion? Hopefully in the future, it will become possible to transplant unwanted fetuses into unsuspecting rabid pro-lifers (preferably male ones, because they have the least right to speak on the subject).

Second post says it all.

My own opinion on whether abortion is right or wrong is irrelevant. The question is whether a woman has a right to control her own body and whether that right trumps another's right to survive. Well, until we start strapping people down and forcibly taking their kidneys to give to the needy, I think we know the answer to that. *nod*

*thinks* Umm....

*think harder* Hrm....

*flash of brilliance* ...Umm...When in doubt, throw a pie?

Hopefully in the future, it will become possible to transplant unwanted fetuses into unsuspecting rabid pro-lifers (preferably male ones, because they have the least right to speak on the subject).

*wonders what Ahnold's stance on abortion is, given he's already been pregnant once.*

Does anyone happen to have the article of stories and statistics about pro-lifers getting abortions?

*thinks* Umm....

*think harder* Hrm....

*flash of brilliance* ...Umm...When in doubt, throw a pie?

Precisely. :cool:

Precisely. :cool:

Damn, that was fast :D

Boom. Abortion argument over.

And genocide suddenly becomes a hell of a lot easier ;)

And genocide suddenly becomes a hell of a lot easier ;)

How is genocide relevent?

You're not one of those 'abortion is genocide' people, are you?

Damn, that was fast :D

My Pie-der sense was tingling. :)

How is genocide relevent?

You're not one of those 'abortion is genocide' people, are you?

Nope you're misunderstanding me

Say for example your plan was put into action and then someone decided that they wanted rid of the Scots. All they have to do is withhold the remedy to the sterilisation to those groups they want to remove

My Pie-der sense was tingling. :)

Ah, so that's what that's what that was.

*wonders what Ahnold's stance on abortion is, given he's already been pregnant once.*

Does anyone happen to have the article of stories and statistics about pro-lifers getting abortions?

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

From that article:

"Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who'd had abortions disagreed with the statement, "Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally." A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. (4)"

At my school (high school, ages 14-18) there was a pro-life demonstration, where a lot of kids put the tape over there mouths saying "LIFE." (If you live in the US, you probably have seen this.) They went the whole day without saying anything because of the aforementioned tape. It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

If only they'd put tape over their nostrils as well.

Incidentally, today marks the fortieth anniversary of the legalisation of abortion in England, Scotland and Wales. :)

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

From that article:

"Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who'd had abortions disagreed with the statement, "Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally." A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. (4)"

Thanks :fluffle:

I've always thought that drive-through abortion clinics/fast food restaurants were a good idea.

It could be called the Flush N Rush

Being male, I'll never have the problem, but here are my thoughts on it:
It should be legal in the very early stages, and legal thereafter when/if serious complications are declared.

Also I hate it when people try to push their beliefs and shit on you.
Like rabid Christians. (I'm Christian, but not crazy about it.)

A Pamphlet I was handed was titled : KLAN PARENTHOOD, WE ARE THE HOOD IN PARENTHOOD, Lynching is for Amateurs, said the following 'facts.'

In America today, almost as many African-American children
are aborted as are born. A black baby is three times more likely to be
murdered in the womb than a white baby.

Since 1973, abortion has reduced the black population by over 25 percent.

Twice as many African-Americans have died from abortion than have died from AIDS, accidents, violent crimes, cancer, and heart disease combined.

Every three days, more African-Americans are killed by abortion than
have been killed by the Ku Klux Klan in its entire history.

Planned Parenthood operates the nation's largest chain of abortion clinics and
almost 80 percent of its facilities are located in minority neighborhoods.

About 13 percent of American women are black, but they
submit to over 35 percent of the abortions.

If it's all lies, seems like it would be easy enough to disprove. But otherwise, if it looks like a duck and has webbed feet like a duck …

This is just one big non sequitur.

In America today, almost as many African-American children
are aborted as are born. A black baby is three times more likely to be
murdered in the womb than a white baby.

You know, if Caucasian doctors were kidnapping black women and performing abortions on them against their will then it might be racism, but as it's black women who are making the choice screaming racism is utterly ridiculous.

Since 1973, abortion has reduced the black population by over 25 percent.

Eh? Are they saying that a quarter of blacks who were alive in 1973 have been been aborted post partem, or that the black population would be 33% higher if every pregnancy was carried to term? If the anti-choicers were capable of using language accurately then it'd be much clearer.

Twice as many African-Americans have died from abortion than have died from AIDS, accidents, violent crimes, cancer, and heart disease combined.

Again, the anti-choice inability to write clearly confuses matters: are they referring to black women who've died while having an abortion or pregnancies which have been terminated? Why are these idiots incapable of using language properly?

Every three days, more African-Americans are killed by abortion than
have been killed by the Ku Klux Klan in its entire history.

See above.

Planned Parenthood operates the nation's largest chain of abortion clinics and
almost 80 percent of its facilities are located in minority neighborhoods.

If it's true, so what? For a start most abortion clinics are in cities IIRC where ethnic minorities are far more common: white heartlands like Texas often only have a handful of clinics in the entire state. Even if we were to disregard all these nasty clinics, why does it matter? You've already claimed that black women are three times more likely to abort than white women; if there's more demand in 'ethnic minority' neighbourhoods then that's a good place to build clinics, no?

About 13 percent of American women are black, but they
submit to over 35 percent of the abortions.

More silly use of language: by using 'submit' they seem to be implying that it's forced upon them by teh ebil white overlords.

If it's all lies, seems like it would be easy enough to disprove. But otherwise, if it looks like a duck and has webbed feet like a duck …

They don't even attempt to link their conclusion to the premises, they just start with an evocative title and then quote some statistics which include black people and abortion in the hope that the readers are dim enough to lap it up without thinking. The sad thing is it probably works.

This is just one big non sequitur.

You know, if Caucasian doctors were kidnapping black women and performing abortions on them against their will then it might be racism, but as it's black women who are making the choice screaming racism is utterly ridiculous.

Would you say that if the topic was education and employment opportunities? Let's change the abortion topic to education and employment and see what it would look like...

In America today, almost as many African-American children
are under-educated as receive college educations. A black baby is three times more likely to be undereducated than a white baby when they turn 18.

Since 1973, Low Education Opportunity has reduced growth of the black population’s education level 25 percent compared to white population educated percentage growth during the same time period.

Every three days, more African-Americans are unemployed by Low Education Opportunity causes than have been fired for straight racial discrimination reasons in the entire history of affirmative action.

The Nation's worst performing schools and Low producers of graduates that go on to higher Education participation regions are almost 80 percent located in minority neighborhoods.

About 13 percent of American women are black, but they represent 35 percent of the people that are born in low education and low employment regions.

A person may not feel free to choose for themselves the path they take, sometimes they feel forced into a postion for reasons beyond their control.

If a young lady finds herself pregnant, and she happens to be black and lives in a low income, low quality education school district, low employment opportunity region, and she has the choice getting public assistance OR asking her boyfriend (who is ALSO living in the low income, low quality education district and is in a low employment opportunity region) to help her support the child, she is forced to commit herself to a life on public assistance.

Is this because she lives in a poor neighborhood or are poor regions built around black communities in ways that are beyond their control?

Eh? Are they saying that a quarter of blacks who were alive in 1973 have been been aborted post partem, or that the black population would be 33% higher if every pregnancy was carried to term? If the anti-choicers were capable of using language accurately then it'd be much clearer.

Which do you think it means? Obviously it means they think abortion has stopped them from having a 33% larger group base today (if it weren’t for abortion stopping the births).

Again, the anti-choice inability to write clearly confuses matters: are they referring to black women who've died while having an abortion or pregnancies which have been terminated? Why are these idiots incapable of using language properly?

You’re calling them idiots because you intentionally obfuscate the language to make it ridiculous? How can you even pretend that you honestly think they might mean thousands of black women die every day from abortion complications? Clearly they are referencing the aborted fetuses, not the mothers.

If it's true, so what? For a start most abortion clinics are in cities IIRC where ethnic minorities are far more common: white heartlands like Texas often only have a handful of clinics in the entire state. Even if we were to disregard all these nasty clinics, why does it matter? You've already claimed that black women are three times more likely to abort than white women; if there's more demand in 'ethnic minority' neighbourhoods then that's a good place to build clinics, no?

How many people who live next to a McDonalds eat there more often then people that don’t live within twenty miles of one?

Or are you saying that: IF 3x more illiterate high school graduates come from region “A” then, the people in region “A” have more demand for bad schools? Nonsense.

More silly use of language: by using 'submit' they seem to be implying that it's forced upon them by teh ebil white overlords.

Yes, that’s what they meant to say. The statement is clearly meant to say that the overall social effects of institutional racism in the US forces black to ‘choose’ the path of least harm instead of getting to choose what is the most good, like the higher percentage of white women get to choose because of white privilege.

They don't even attempt to link their conclusion to the premises, they just start with an evocative title and then quote some statistics which include black people and abortion in the hope that the readers are dim enough to lap it up without thinking. The sad thing is it probably works.

They made enough links, if they made a winning argument I’m not sure, but your rebuttals were not effective rebuttals against them.

A Pamphlet I was handed was titled : KLAN PARENTHOOD, WE ARE THE HOOD IN PARENTHOOD, Lynching is for Amateurs, said the following 'facts.'

*snip*

If it's all lies, seems like it would be easy enough to disprove. But otherwise, if it looks like a duck and has webbed feet like a duck …

I "love" your "if these are lies, prove it" attitude. Sorry but the one making the assertions has the burden of proof. Saying "I read some pamphlet" doesn't equal proof.

But what exactly do you think is the duck?

That black women have abortions at a higher rate than white women is a fact, but one that derives from multiple causes. That Planned Parenthood is racist or preys on black women are not among the causes.

This is just one big non sequitur.

*snip*

They don't even attempt to link their conclusion to the premises, they just start with an evocative title and then quote some statistics which include black people and abortion in the hope that the readers are dim enough to lap it up without thinking. The sad thing is it probably works.

QFT

Would you say that if the topic was education and employment opportunities? Let's change the abortion topic to education and employment and see what it would look like...

In America today, almost as many African-American children
are under-educated as receive college educations. A black baby is three times more likely to be undereducated than a white baby when they turn 18.

Since 1973, Low Education Opportunity has reduced growth of the black population’s education level 25 percent compared to white population educated percentage growth during the same time period.

Every three days, more African-Americans are unemployed by Low Education Opportunity causes than have been fired for straight racial discrimination reasons in the entire history of affirmative action.

The Nation's worst performing schools and Low producers of graduates that go on to higher Education participation regions are almost 80 percent located in minority neighborhoods.

About 13 percent of American women are black, but they represent 35 percent of the people that are born in low education and low employment regions.

A person may not feel free to choose for themselves the path they take, sometimes they feel forced into a postion for reasons beyond their control.

If a young lady finds herself pregnant, and she happens to be black and lives in a low income, low quality education school district, low employment opportunity region, and she has the choice getting public assistance OR asking her boyfriend (who is ALSO living in the low income, low quality education district and is in a low employment opportunity region) to help her support the child, she is forced to commit herself to a life on public assistance.

Is this because she lives in a poor neighborhood or are poor regions built around black communities in ways that are beyond their control?



Which do you think it means? Obviously it means they think abortion has stopped them from having a 33% larger group base today (if it weren’t for abortion stopping the births).



You’re calling them idiots because you intentionally obfuscate the language to make it ridiculous? How can you even pretend that you honestly think they might mean thousands of black women die every day from abortion complications? Clearly they are referencing the aborted fetuses, not the mothers.



How many people who live next to a McDonalds eat there more often then people that don’t live within twenty miles of one?

Or are you saying that: IF 3x more illiterate high school graduates come from region “A” then, the people in region “A” have more demand for bad schools? Nonsense.



Yes, that’s what they meant to say. The statement is clearly meant to say that the overall social effects of institutional racism in the US forces black to ‘choose’ the path of least harm instead of getting to choose what is the most good, like the higher percentage of white women get to choose because of white privilege.



They made enough links, if they made a winning argument I’m not sure, but your rebuttals were not effective rebuttals against them.

1. I love to see you are such a crusader against white privilege and black disadvantage. Funny I've never seen you make such an argument in any threads on that subject.

2. Your attempt to equate the choice to have an abortion with being poorly educated fails. There is no such thing as a demand for poor education. There is such a thing as a demand for abortion. More to the point, one does not choose to get a poor education, be chronically unemployed, or (generally) be poor. One does choose whether or not to have an abortion.

3. We live in a racist society. Planned Parenthood isn't to blame for that, nor do they exploit it. The fact that disproportionate numbers of blacks are poor, under-educated, etc, makes abortion more common among blacks, not the other way around.

4. All of your "statistics" assume that having had an abortion is a bad thing. That just isn't so.

5. As explained earlier in this thread, Planned Parenthood does more to reduce the rate of abortions (through family planning and contraceptives) than any pro-life group. Thus, assuming it is true, your stats about Planned Parenthood being in minority communities only shows that PP is pro-active in helping minority communities with reproductive choices.

EDIT: In fact, only about 3% of Planned Parenthood's services in the United States are abortion services. linky (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/news-articles-press/politics-policy-issues/birth-control-access-prevention/pp-services-17317.htm) 37% are contraceptive services, 29% is STI/STD testing and treatment, 20% is cancer screening and prevention, etc. Would you deny these services to minority communities?

I support abortion in most cases, and even in some instances infanticide.

However, I do not feel that being pro life makes you sexist or ignorant.

However, I do not feel that being pro life makes you sexist or ignorant.

There is nonetheless a high correlation. :p

There is nonetheless a high correlation. :p

:D but we know what they say about correlation and causation

1. I love to see you are such a crusader against white privilege and black disadvantage. Funny I've never seen you make such an argument in any threads on that subject.

I haven’t participated in every thread, that is correct. Funny that you would mention it, as if I’m expected to participate in every thread…

2. Your attempt to equate the choice to have an abortion with being poorly educated fails. There is no such thing as a demand for poor education. There is such a thing as a demand for abortion. More to the point, one does not choose to get a poor education, be chronically unemployed, or (generally) be poor. One does choose whether or not to have an abortion.

One would think that people who are chronically unemployed, poorly educated and (generally) poor, would choose to have an abortion BECAUSE they cannot afford to choose otherwise. The ‘choice’ is thrust upon them by extenuating circumstances beyond their control. Institutional racist policies create the demand for abortions.

3. We live in a racist society. Planned Parenthood isn't to blame for that, nor do they exploit it. The fact that disproportionate numbers of blacks are poor, under-educated, etc, makes abortion more common among blacks, not the other way around.

Let’s use your argument for gun stores in poor neighborhoods…

. We live in a racist society. Gun Store owners aren’t to blame for that, nor do they exploit it. The fact that disproportionate numbers of blacks are poor, under-educated, etc, makes gun ownership more common among blacks, not the other way around

Or liquor stores…

. We live in a racist society. Liquor Store owner (or Drug Dealers) aren’t to blame for that, nor do they exploit it. The fact that disproportionate numbers of blacks are poor, under-educated, etc, makes alcohol use (and drug use) more common among blacks, not the other way around

Or porn stores/nude dancing bars etc., and prostitution problems etc… you get the idea, I hope.

In clear words, I find your argument less then convincing. Perhaps it would be better if neighborhoods were allowed to regulate themselves, gun stores, liquor stores and whatnot should be determined by the local communities through zoning regulations, rather than forcing them to ‘prove’ every gun store, liquor store owner etc., is a bigot or racist first, as you would about them proving abortion is racially discriminating against them. Proving individual guilt is not the point, reducing the problem is.

4. All of your "statistics" assume that having had an abortion is a bad thing. That just isn't so.

According to Bottle’s post, having the planned parenthood clinics in these neighborhoods should decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies shouldn’t it? However, according to the actual results though, the neighborhoods with clinics have more abortions, not less. Trying to pretend like abortions are a ‘desired’ result, like you just did, is disingenuous on your part I think.

5. As explained earlier in this thread, Planned Parenthood does more to reduce the rate of abortions (through family planning and contraceptives) than any pro-life group. Thus, assuming it is true, your stats about Planned Parenthood being in minority communities only shows that PP is pro-active in helping minority communities with reproductive choices.

Your assumption is what? That Planned Parenthood clinics only opened up in these neighborhoods recently? Then your assumption is wrong. These neighborhoods are going on three generations with clinics, with no improvement in sight. Either the clinics aren’t doing anything good OR the result of the clinics presence does NOT decrease unwanted pregnancies in the neighborhoods they exist in.

EDIT: In fact, only about 3% of Planned Parenthood's services in the United States are abortion services. linky (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/news-articles-press/politics-policy-issues/birth-control-access-prevention/pp-services-17317.htm) 37% are contraceptive services, 29% is STI/STD testing and treatment, 20% is cancer screening and prevention, etc. Would you deny these services to minority communities?

Would you deny gun stores, liquor stores and abortion clinics in your child’s neighborhood? Most people say yes, they would regulate them.

If the clinics are such a benefit to the neighborhoods they are in, why don’t white privileged neighborhoods have them then?

The answer is because people with the ability to control what does and does not get to exist in their neighborhoods do not want them. You trying to pretend like the black community should be ‘honored’ to have them is, frankly, insulting and demeaning to those communities.

If I start quoting the gross misrepresentative percentage of blacks in prison, does it indicate an individual judge or court? No, but it might be indicative of institutionalized racism and racist policies that create that situation. If I start quoting the gross misrepresentative percentage of blacks that don't get proper health care, does this damn the hospitals in their neighborhoods? No, but it points out a potential institutionalized racism in the policies and methodologies of the medical industry in regards to how it treats blacks. IF you agree with those statements, how then can you attack the statistics gross misrepresentation of the percentage of blacks who are effected by abortion in black communities in America? Why do you find these stats any less indicative of institutionalized racism? OR is it a pick and choose according to which is your pet cause?

There is nonetheless a high correlation.
If correlations could be interpreted as mathematically proven to be absolute, it would make statistics a whole lot easier. *nods*

If a woman wants an abortion, nobody should tell her she can't. If you don't want an abortion, then don't have one. Its not your duty to 'save' society from perceived infanticides, or to force your set of morals on society. Considering the fact that 'separation of church and state' is considered to be a fundamentally good idea by the majority. I personally would not ask my significant other to have an abortion (its not really an issue, since we use contraception ;), but if the need arises...) but the option is always open to her.

Babykiller - a derogatory term used by those who identify with prohibition of abortion to those who favor legal abortion; false in nature due to the lack of knowledge as to the actual experience/significant other's experience (or lack thereof) of abortion.

Ok that is sounds Liberal now it is wrong for abortion!

Ok I am a Christian and we think that is horible to abortion!When God gives you a child and you kill it you have not just sinned but have put a wall between you and God.
Mt. Saint HelensOk an example would be Mt. Saint Helens if the volcano chooses to erupt that would be haveing the baby if it chooses to wait a little longer the eruption will die like abortion!

By the way all people who like abortion and are not a Christian will die I am sorry to say in hell and your child will not go with you for God takes all up who have not been taught usually the age of 9 and under and if you think your safe because you are nine and you already know about Jesus you have to choose!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/m00nbeast/warning-sign-generator.gif



:p

I haven’t participated in every thread, that is correct. Funny that you would mention it, as if I’m expected to participate in every thread…

Funny that you have never (to my knowledge) participated in any thread related to racism. Perhaps I'm wrong and your outrage about white privilege is genuine and you just haven't had a chance to express it before. If so, welcome aboard a train I've engineered many times.

BTW, nice job throughout your post on avoiding the point I made and rambling on about the same stuff over and over.



One would think that people who are chronically unemployed, poorly educated and (generally) poor, would choose to have an abortion BECAUSE they cannot afford to choose otherwise. The ‘choice’ is thrust upon them by extenuating circumstances beyond their control. Institutional racist policies create the demand for abortions.

1. Whoa, whoa, whoa. African-Americans represent about a third of all abortions. This is disproportionate, but is hardly the major reason for abortions. The vast majority of abortions are by white women.

2. You are correct that institutional racist policies make blacks more likely to be chronically unemployed, poorly educated, and/or poor. Rather than whine about abortion, why don't we do something about those institutional racist policies?

3. Planned Parenthood is not to blame for those institutional racist policies that make blacks more likely to be unemployed, poorly educated, and/or poor. To the contrary, by providing family planning services, Planned Parenthood helps minorities (among others).

4. Are you actually suggesting that a solution for institutionalized racism and its effects is to deprive black women of their reproductive freedoms?

5. Again, you miss my point which was that your comparing abortion to poor education was flawed. One doesn't make a conscious choice to get an inferior education, be unemployed, etc. Abortion is a conscious choice.


Let’s use your argument for gun stores in poor neighborhoods…

. We live in a racist society. Gun Store owners aren’t to blame for that, nor do they exploit it. The fact that disproportionate numbers of blacks are poor, under-educated, etc, makes gun ownership more common among blacks, not the other way around

Or liquor stores…

. We live in a racist society. Liquor Store owner (or Drug Dealers) aren’t to blame for that, nor do they exploit it. The fact that disproportionate numbers of blacks are poor, under-educated, etc, makes alcohol use (and drug use) more common among blacks, not the other way around

Or porn stores/nude dancing bars etc., and prostitution problems etc… you get the idea, I hope.

In clear words, I find your argument less then convincing. Perhaps it would be better if neighborhoods were allowed to regulate themselves, gun stores, liquor stores and whatnot should be determined by the local communities through zoning regulations, rather than forcing them to ‘prove’ every gun store, liquor store owner etc., is a bigot or racist first, as you would about them proving abortion is racially discriminating against them. Proving individual guilt is not the point, reducing the problem is.

Are you actually claiming that gun ownership and liquor stores are symptoms of institutional racism?

Are you actually claiming that providing family planning and contraceptives is equitable to selling drugs?

Regardless, you have no proof that minority neighborhoods don't want Planned Parenthood clinics.


According to Bottle’s post, having the planned parenthood clinics in these neighborhoods should decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies shouldn’t it? However, according to the actual results though, the neighborhoods with clinics have more abortions, not less. Trying to pretend like abortions are a ‘desired’ result, like you just did, is disingenuous on your part I think.

According to what actual results? Have you forgotten that you haven't actual provided any proof?

Moreover, the "facts" you did provide didn't prove that neighborhoos with clinics have more abortions. My thread on Worldwide Abortion Rates and Trends shows that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortion, it only makes it less safe. Granted if there is no place to get an abortion, then one won't have one, but the alternative to legal clinics isn't necessarily a lack of abortions.

Finally, abortions are a more desirable result than some alternatives. Of course, family planning and contraceptive use should reduce the number of abortions. (And they do.) But when an abortion is needed, it is a desirable result. Nothing disingenuous about it.


Your assumption is what? That Planned Parenthood clinics only opened up in these neighborhoods recently? Then your assumption is wrong. These neighborhoods are going on three generations with clinics, with not improvement in sight. Either the clinics aren’t doing anything good OR the result of the clinics presence does NOT decrease unwanted pregnancies in the neighborhoods they exist in.

My only assumption was that your "fact" about Planned Parenthood clinics was true. Nothing else.

You have no evidence that Planned Parenthood clinics fail to decrease unwanted pregnancies. None of your "facts" alleged any such thing. Nor have you proved any of those "facts."


Would you deny gun stores, liquor stores and abortion clinics in your child’s neighborhood? Most people say yes, they would regulate them.

If the clinics are such a benefit to the neighborhoods they are in, why don’t white privileged neighborhoods have them then?

The answer is because people with the ability to control what does and does belong in their neighborhoods do not want them. You trying to pretend like the black community should be ‘honored’ to have them is, frankly, insulting and demeaning to those communities.

Really. Do you have any evidence of these things or are you just assuming them?

Why do you assume that minority neighborhoods have Planned Parenthood clinics (which are not just abortion clinics, BTW) against the will of that community?

A Planned Parenthood clinic is a boon to a community and none of your huffing and puffing changes that. You ignore my point that Planned Parenthood provides primarily other services than abortion (only 3% of their services are abortion services). Why would you deny these services to minority communities?

It is your attitude that blacks are somehow helpless victims of Planned Parenthood that is insulting and demeaning.

If I start quoting the gross misrepresentative percentage of blacks in prison, does it indicate an individual judge or court? No, but it might be indicative of institutionalized racism and racist policies that create that situation. If I start quoting the gross misrepresentative percentage of blacks that don't get proper health care, does this damn the hospitals in their neighborhoods? No, but it points out a potential institutionalized racism in the policies and methodologies of the medical industry in regards to how it treats blacks. IF you agree with those statements, how then can you attack the statistics gross misrepresentation of the percentage of blacks who are effected by abortion in black communities in America? Why do you find these stats any less indicative of institutionalized racism? OR is it a pick and choose according to which is your pet cause?

1. You don't have to convince me that there is institutional racism in America. I've done threads on it (with conservatives objecting). You have yet to convince me that Planned Parenthood is somehow to blame for this racism.

2. You are comparing things that are inherently bad -- like being in prison or getting poor healthcare -- with having an abortion. As I have explained, abortion is sometimes a desirable choice.

3. Again, I fail to see how depriving black women of reproductive freedoms will help fight institutional racism.

A Pamphlet I was handed was titled : KLAN PARENTHOOD, WE ARE THE HOOD IN PARENTHOOD, Lynching is for Amateurs, said the following 'facts.'

In America today, almost as many African-American children
are aborted as are born. A black baby is three times more likely to be
murdered in the womb than a white baby.

Since 1973, abortion has reduced the black population by over 25 percent.

Twice as many African-Americans have died from abortion than have died from AIDS, accidents, violent crimes, cancer, and heart disease combined.

Every three days, more African-Americans are killed by abortion than
have been killed by the Ku Klux Klan in its entire history.

Planned Parenthood operates the nation's largest chain of abortion clinics and
almost 80 percent of its facilities are located in minority neighborhoods.

About 13 percent of American women are black, but they
submit to over 35 percent of the abortions.

If it's all lies, seems like it would be easy enough to disprove. But otherwise, if it looks like a duck and has webbed feet like a duck …

so you read this pamphlet and actually thought "wow abortion IS genocide"?

really?

really?

the obvious flaws in reasoning didnt jump out at you? you dont expect them to jump out at every person who reads your post?

really?

Nope you're misunderstanding me

Say for example your plan was put into action and then someone decided that they wanted rid of the Scots. All they have to do is withhold the remedy to the sterilisation to those groups they want to remove

And that would be easier than just bombing Scotland flat? All you have to do to kill Socts is withhold medical attention from anyone Scottish, by the same token, I guess. I'm not buying the 'genocide' argument.. how would the doctor know that the foetus was 'ethnically Scottish'?

Genocide isn't hard.

1. Whoa, whoa, whoa. African-Americans represent about a third of all abortions. This is disproportionate, but is hardly the major reason for abortions. The vast majority of abortions are by white women.

I was talking about the black community in America and abortion. Not all abortion.

2. You are correct that institutional racist policies make blacks more likely to be chronically unemployed, poorly educated, and/or poor. Rather than whine about abortion, why don't we do something about those institutional racist policies?

We can attack many fronts, one is bad education, one is bad neighborhoods from crime, one is bad products that are disproportionately provided to black neighborhoods like liquor, guns, low quality food sources (lack of grocery stores but too many poor nutrition food options etc.,) low property ownership, and disproportionate abortion clinic advocacy.

3. Planned Parenthood is not to blame for those institutional racist policies that make blacks more likely to be unemployed, poorly educated, and/or poor. To the contrary, by providing family planning services, Planned Parenthood helps minorities (among others).

You would think so, but it doesn't seem to be shown in the statistics. High clinic presence has NOT resulted in higher contraception use nor reduced abortions. As a matter of fact, the inner city black community statistics looks more like Russian abortion statistics than it does American statistics (multiple abortions, low contraceptive use, poverty and abuse etc.,).

Are you actually claiming that gun ownership and liquor stores are symptoms of institutional racism?

I am claiming that gun stores and liquor stores in close proximity to housing and families with children IS racially disproportionate in American cities and suburban areas. The end result is, IF a neighborhood is black it is disproportionately going to have easy access to both liquor stores and cheap guns.

Are you actually claiming that providing family planning and contraceptives is equitable to selling drugs?

Recreational drug use goes hand in hand with irresponsible sexual encounters, do you deny it?

Regardless, you have no proof that minority neighborhoods don't want Planned Parenthood clinics.

I'm not the one handing out the fliers. I didn't assemble the statistics myself, but the feminizing of poverty is three fold more prevalent in the black community then in the white community and the abortion statistics are known in the black community.

According to what actual results? Have you forgotten that you haven't actual provided any proof?

Moreover, the "facts" you did provide didn't prove that neighborhoods with clinics have more abortions. My thread on Worldwide Abortion Rates and Trends shows that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortion, it only makes it less safe. Granted if there is no place to get an abortion, then one won't have one, but the alternative to legal clinics isn't necessarily a lack of abortions.

I didn't need to provide that proof because we've been talking about the black community in America, you've said yourself that the black community has a disproportionate representation in abortion statistics. Why did I have to prove what we both already acknowledged?

The poor black community has clinics AND abortions (as shown by their percentages) and the poor white community does not have clinics and does not have a misrepresentation of themselves in abortion statistics (see rural communities like the Dakotas for poor areas with low abortion demand) so poverty is not the only reason black women are over represented in abortion statistics.

What are you trying to say here? Should I be looking up proof that poor white women don't have access to clinics and poor black women do? Or do you acknowledge this as well?

Finally, abortions are a more desirable result than some alternatives. Of course, family planning and contraceptive use should reduce the number of abortions. (And they do.) But when an abortion is needed, it is a desirable result. Nothing disingenuous about it.

I think you cannot prove that close proximity of clinics increases birth control use in the black communities, I know you want to assume it, and so would I if I didn't know better. But the black community does NOT seem to have increase their safe sex practices since the clinics opened in their neighborhoods long ago, even before Roe vs. Wade in 1973

My only assumption was that your "fact" about Planned Parenthood clinics was true. Nothing else.

You have no evidence that Planned Parenthood clinics fail to decrease unwanted pregnancies. None of your "facts" alleged any such thing. Nor have you proved any of those "facts."

IF they decreased unplanned pregnancies, then the communities they service wouldn't have increased demand for abortions compared to other women in America that do not have the clinics. IF the clinics decreased demand, then the communities with the clinics should have the lowest abortion demand, but the black community has a disproportionate demand for it. The two positions you present, that clinics reduce demand by providing contraceptives etc., and thus need, do not stand up under scrutiny.

Really. Do you have any evidence of these things or are you just assuming them?

Why do you assume that minority neighborhoods have Planned Parenthood clinics (which are not just abortion clinics, BTW) against the will of that community?

IF clinics were high demand facilities, then other communities would demand that they have some too, now wouldn't they? Is the white community denied their fair share? What an injustice.

A Planned Parenthood clinic is a boon to a community and none of your huffing and puffing changes that.

It is your attitude that blacks are somehow helpless victims of Planned Parenthood that is insulting and demeaning.

The same could be said that: Your attitude that blacks are somehow helpless victims of poverty, poor education and institutionalized racism in the American society that is insulting and demeaning (implying that they brought it on themselves I guess is your point?). You can't have one without the other. Either an individual and their family is born oppressed, or not, but not just some policies like crime and punishment, poverty and low education, abortion, drug use and liquor harms these communities as well.

1. You don't have to convince me that there is institutional racism in America. I've done threads on it (with conservatives objecting). You have yet to convince me that Planned Parenthood is somehow to blame for this racism.

I didn't blame them for racism, they, like other things are the result of institutionalized racist policies of the past, they are a by product of that racism. Clinics in black communities go hand in hand with other things that keep the black community oppressed. Such as cheap liquor and poverty.


2. You are comparing things that are inherently bad -- like being in prison or getting poor healthcare -- with having an abortion. As I have explained, abortion is sometimes a desirable choice.

And sometimes having children is a desirable outcome, but in the black community, having and raising children is the disproportionately LOW outcome. Three quarters of poor white women are in positions where they can choose to keep or at least give birth to their offspring. Only fifty percent of poor black American women can do that.

You would think so, but it doesn't seem to be shown in the statistics. High clinic presence has NOT resulted in higher contraception use nor reduced abortions. As a matter of fact, the inner city black community statistics looks more like Russian abortion statistics than it does American statistics (multiple abortions, low contraceptive use, poverty and abuse etc.,).

I'm not the one handing out the fliers. I didn't assemble the statistics myself, but the feminizing of poverty is three fold more prevalent in the black community then in the white community and the abortion statistics are known in the black community.



The poor black community has clinics AND abortions (as shown by their percentages) and the poor white community does not have clinics and does not have a misrepresentation of themselves in abortion statistics (see rural communities like the Dakotas for poor areas with low abortion demand) so poverty is not the only reason black women are over represented in abortion statistics.

And sometimes having children is a desirable outcome, but in the black community, having and raising children is the disproportionately LOW outcome. Three quarters of poor white women are in positions where they can choose to keep or at least give birth to their offspring. Only fifty percent of poor black American women can do that.

I'll respond to your post when I get a chance, but in the meantime, care to provide some evidence for the many factual assertions you make above?

The mere fact that black women are disproportionately represented in abortion statistics does not prove all the points you are trying to make.

so you read this pamphlet and actually thought "wow abortion IS genocide"?

really?

really?

the obvious flaws in reasoning didnt jump out at you? you dont expect them to jump out at every person who reads your post?

really?

You know,

There is a reason(s) that the Black American community is not the largest minority community in America anymore.

And perhaps you think it's because the Black community is really good at using contraceptives?

Or maybe you think it is because Texas doesn't have a big enough Wall to protect the border from uninvited neighbors?

Really?

What reason do you think is behind it if not the reduction in growth rate in the black community?

A Pamphlet I was handed was titled : KLAN PARENTHOOD, WE ARE THE HOOD IN PARENTHOOD, Lynching is for Amateurs, said the following 'facts.'

<snip>
You invalidate your own argument in your introduction to it. I've read all the nonsense you've posted since then, and I snip it, along with what I snipped from this post. I refuse to lower this debate by pretending there is or ever could be any validity to claims made by a "pamphlet" you were "handed" that has such an idiotically jingoistic title.

The only honest thing you've done here so far is put that word 'facts' into quote marks.

Please, please, please stop derailing this debate with this nonsense. You insult us by presenting it.

You know,

There is a reason(s) that the Black American community is not the largest minority community in America anymore.

And perhaps you think it's because the Black community is really good at using contraceptives?

Or maybe you think it is because Texas doesn't have a big enough Wall to protect the border from uninvited neighbors?

Really?

What reason do you think is behind it if not the reduction in growth rate in the black community?
This is more insulting bull. Stop. Just stop with your offensive comments, veiled ethnic and cultural slurs, and supported (but obvious) horseshit. Just stop.

You know,

There is a reason(s) that the Black American community is not the largest minority community in America anymore.

And perhaps you think it's because the Black community is really good at using contraceptives?

Or maybe you think it is because Texas doesn't have a big enough Wall to protect the border from uninvited neighbors?

Really?

What reason do you think is behind it if not the reduction in growth rate in the black community?

there are 2 problems with your reasoning...

it assumes that there is some decrease in african american population when the african american population is growing and growing at a rate higher than the general population. all while not having a huge influx of african immigrants.

so yes i would suggest that the influx of hispanic immigrants plus its growth rate within the native population is to "blame" for hispanics edging out african americans as #1 minority.

and

that you think that a woman has a certain number of pregnancies in her so that if she aborts one, she will have fewer children than she was "fated" to have.

the truth is that women have an idea of how many children then want. if they abort one before they have children, they go on to have that many children. the number of children stays the same, the number of pregnancies is greater. on ocassion they will have an "extra" pregnancy after they already have the number of children they want. some abort that pregnancy, some carry it to term. this is no less true of black women than it is of the rest of womanhood.

if abortion is genocide, its a piss poor method.

what i DONT think is that planned parenthood is targeting black women for abortions and tricking them into terminating pregnancies that they would prefer to carry to term.

Abortion protests? At a high school?

That's absolutely inappropriate.

I'll respond to your post when I get a chance, but in the meantime, care to provide some evidence for the many factual assertions you make above?

The mere fact that black women are disproportionately represented in abortion statistics does not prove all the points you are trying to make.

In the 41 areas for which race was adequately reported, approximately 55% of women who obtained legal induced abortions were known to be white, 35% were black, and 7% were of other races; for 3% of the women, race was unknown. (Table 9). The abortion ratio for black women (503 per 1,000 live births) was 3.0 times the ratio for white women (167 per 1,000 live births). Additionally, the abortion ratio for women of other races (329 per 1,000 live births) was 2.0 times the ratio for white women. The abortion rate for black women (30 per 1,000 women) was 3.1 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000 women), whereas the abortion rate for women of other races (22 per 1,000 women) was 2.2 times the rate for white women.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

According to that, it is even worse then I projected...
White women, abortions vs. births: 167-1000 (16.7%)
Black women, abortions vs. births: 503-1000 (50.3%)

AS to the lack of abortion providers in non-black areas...
The lack of abortion providers is underscored by the fact that 86% of counties in the United States have no abortion services.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic5.htm


It’s a well publicized occurrence that the number of abortion providers in the US is on the decline. With only 600+ hospitals out of 5800+ hospitals in the nation providing them, something like 94% of all abortions are done in clinics apparently. Additionally, we know that clinics are few and far between in rural counties and central and western states. The vast majority of states without a black community do not have abortion providers in those states. IF I’m wrong, it should be verifiable, but I don’t know of an abundance of clinics in states like Wyoming, the Dakotas, Idaho, Montana, Iowa etc., where the white poverty level is high but there is almost no access to abortion providers.

Abortion is bad, and anyone who thinks it should be illegal is a moron. The end.

Abortion protests? At a high school?

That's absolutely inappropriate.

If it was my school I'd have rallied about 10 of my friends and staged a choice counter-demonstration.

If there's no counter-protest, no one was pissed off enough.

You invalidate your own argument in your introduction to it. I've read all the nonsense you've posted since then, and I snip it, along with what I snipped from this post. I refuse to lower this debate by pretending there is or ever could be any validity to claims made by a "pamphlet" you were "handed" that has such an idiotically jingoistic title.

The only honest thing you've done here so far is put that word 'facts' into quote marks.

Please, please, please stop derailing this debate with this nonsense. You insult us by presenting it.

Honest thing about it? as if I'm lying? :rolleyes:

Oh for crying out loud...

I look up the source myself: *google search*
http://www.klanparenthood.com/

I look up the source myself: *google search*


Funny site.

abortion really hurts guys chances of having more kids than Genghis Khan...


Personally I would never want my partner to have an abortion, but if other people want to have one, that's cool.

there are 2 problems with your reasoning...

it assumes that there is some decrease in african american population when the african american population is growing and growing at a rate higher than the general population. all while not having a huge influx of african immigrants.

I didn't say decrease, I said "reduction in growth rate"

And according to the percentages shown, the birth rate of blacks in America is literally halved by abortions rates in the black community.


that you think that a woman has a certain number of pregnancies in her so that if she aborts one, she will have fewer children than she was "fated" to have.

the truth is that women have an idea of how many children then want. if they abort one before they have children, they go on to have that many children. the number of children stays the same, the number of pregnancies is greater. on ocassion they will have an "extra" pregnancy after they already have the number of children they want. some abort that pregnancy, some carry it to term. this is no less true of black women than it is of the rest of womanhood.

I've never said any such thing, not once. You project those ideas and pretend that I've made those claims.

if abortion is genocide, its a piss poor method.

I don't recall that I used the word genocide, I think it was you that brought it to the table (although I have seen it used, I didn't)

what i DONT think is that planned parenthood is targeting black women for abortions and tricking them into terminating pregnancies that they would prefer to carry to term.

I didn't use the word 'trick' either. You seem to be making a lot of wrong claims about what I've said.

Abortion is bad, and anyone who thinks it should be illegal is a moron. The end.

:confused: or is it just me?

:confused: or is it just me?

I understand what he's saying, unless he just made a typo: no one likes abortion; young girls don't have dreams where they meet the man of their dreams, get pregnant, lose the the man of their dreams, and get an abortion. However, that doesn't mean it should be illegal, because it provides a necessary if unpleasant service to society.
I think that's what he means.

I took it as .... since it is a bad thing .. it should be legal. Because he thinks there are too many freakin people. But you are probably right.

Just wondering....

In America if you murder a pregnant woman and are convicted, in most cases you will receive a harsher punishment. How then does this factor into how we look at abortion in American? I tend to believe that either

A. We should make abortion illegal

or

B. Remove the extra penalty for murdering a pregnant woman.

Just seems a tad incongruent to me

In America if you murder a pregnant woman and are convicted, in most cases you will receive a harsher punishment. How then does this factor into how we look at abortion in American? I tend to believe that either

Actually, that is untrue. It is actually a rare case in which a harsher punishment is applied or a person is tried for a double murder for murdering a pregnant woman. The only times it has been applied have been times when the fetus was viable - when abortion would be illegal except for medical reasons anyways.

I didn't say a double homicide. I simply said a harsher sentence, however if I am still incorrect on this than I will rescind my statement

specifically I can make note of the Scott Peterson case.........but in most states there is a further penalty for murdering both the mother and the unborn child according to what I have learned in regards to US law

specifically I can make note of the Scott Peterson case.........but in most states there is a further penalty for murdering both the mother and the unborn child according to what I have learned in regards to US law

The Peterson case is one in which the fetus was at 8 months. It would have been illegal for Laci Peterson to have an abortion without a medical necessity for it.

Even so what do you make of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

That seems to be at odds with Roe v Wade....however it has been argued not to be. I'm just trying to figure out how we can take both stances

Those laws were passed solely so they could be used as an argument against abortion, so they're really not a good example.

And that would be easier than just bombing Scotland flat? All you have to do to kill Socts is withhold medical attention from anyone Scottish, by the same token, I guess. I'm not buying the 'genocide' argument.. how would the doctor know that the foetus was 'ethnically Scottish'?

Genocide isn't hard.

Perhaps I should have used an easier example and substituted Blacks within the UK for Scots. You can't bomb your own country flat to remove that group but you can target the removal of treatment to black parents.

It would certainly be cheaper and more straightforward than bombing a group either way. Cost of employing a military force for the task vs. doing nothing?

Withholding medical attention is a way to try and destroy a group of people but it doesn't target the entire group. It will, without a doubt, reduce the number within that group but sterilisation of the entire population seems pretty comprehensive

where I live now? I don't think they can.

This answer does make me think a little - not something I want to get into a habit of - but, really, we make our laws based on the society we live in and what's acceptable to a majority, so we're not starting riots.

I say this because this is a far more highly charged issue in the US than the UK, for example, and so tolerance levels and emotive engagement are different.

So, given what is right or wrong is very much a product of our respective societies, it's hard for me to say I'm in disagreement except from my own cultural standpoint.

I do continue to feel that quality of life is important and that should really be the criteria over simple right to life. We can assess quality of life to some extent, both for mother and for potential child and the debate should focus around what that is, as opposed to an outright statement of right.

Is it inherently wrong to abort - I just can't say that it is given the multitude of circumstances that make it the right decision - unpleasant sure, but as an experience and a choice, not as a moral fact.

According to that, it is even worse then I projected...
White women, abortions vs. births: 167-1000 (16.7%)
Black women, abortions vs. births: 503-1000 (50.3%)

And according to the percentages shown, the birth rate of blacks in America is literally halved by abortions rates in the black community.

TCT is doing an excellent job as usual, so I'll limit myself to pointing out that you've severely distorted those statistics.

503 abortions per 1,000 live births translates to 33.47% of black pregnancies ending in termination, NOT 50.3% and NOT "literally halving" the black birth rate, even before considering Ashmoria's point that abortion is unlikely to change the number of children a woman has in her lifetime.

100*[503/(503+1000)]=33.47

This compares to 14.31% of white pregnancies ending in termination.

100*[167/(167+1000)]=14.31

This is very basic mathematics.

In the 41 areas for which race was adequately reported, approximately 55% of women who obtained legal induced abortions were known to be white, 35% were black, and 7% were of other races; for 3% of the women, race was unknown. (Table 9). The abortion ratio for black women (503 per 1,000 live births) was 3.0 times the ratio for white women (167 per 1,000 live births). Additionally, the abortion ratio for women of other races (329 per 1,000 live births) was 2.0 times the ratio for white women. The abortion rate for black women (30 per 1,000 women) was 3.1 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000 women), whereas the abortion rate for women of other races (22 per 1,000 women) was 2.2 times the rate for white women.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

According to that, it is even worse then I projected...
White women, abortions vs. births: 167-1000 (16.7%)
Black women, abortions vs. births: 503-1000 (50.3%)
Ermmm... No, that isn't 50.3%
That would be 503 out of 1,000. This means that for every 1,000 live births, there will be 503 abortions. Thus it is 503 out of 1503, thus 33%
*Rolls eyes*

Edit: Whoops, RLI's already said that... o.O
So I guess I'll have to add more.
Let's start with... http://www.klanparenthood.com/
Now, firstly, pictures of unborn fetuses prove shit. We know they're 'alive'. That's not the point.
Oh, and by the way, by your logic, that's child porn. You sickos.
Ah yes, the Klu Klux Klan are hated because they helped blacks not have to have children that they didn't want. No. People have abortions if they want them. That's like saying that contraception is bad, because if minorities use it it stops them from increasing their rate.
To tell the truth, isn't it racial discrimination to say that minorities MUST KEEP GROWING EVEN IF THEY DON'T WANT TO?
I love how people against abortion being legal (I won't say 'pro-life' or 'pro-choice', since both are unspeak, though pro-choice is certainly the more valid of the two) show pictures of abortions and say that they're disgusting, but don't really seem to feel like showing pictures of childbirth. If you've seen a childbirth, it's not an incredibly beautiful sight either. How something looks isn't a valid argument.
It doesn't surprise me that dash seems to have problems with either a) Reading or b) Grade 7 maths.

And no, this is not equating foetuses to parasites; it's demonstrating the difference between life and living).
Um...... :|

Um...... :|

Instead of humming, contradict me. Prove I'm wrong. But remember, I never called the foetus a parasite. I said that while it could be considered life, it isn't a living being until it doesn't rely on a host to subsist.

I understand people have religious objections to it, but they have no right interjecting themselves into the situation on their God's behalf, especially not by using the state.
That may be true and all when talking about people with only religious objections, but it doesn't work too well with everyone else.

Just wondering....

In America if you murder a pregnant woman and are convicted, in most cases you will receive a harsher punishment. How then does this factor into how we look at abortion in American?
Pretty easily. You see, those laws that you're talking about exist because of the efforts of anti-choice groups, who were attempting to back-door in a sort of legal status for fetuses. In other words, the anti-choicers intentionally created this "contradiction" in order to undermine abortion rights.

Of course, as Demi has pointed out, it's not really working on the whole because the laws typically only apply when the pregnancy is already so far along that elective abortion would be illegal anyhow.


It is your [Balderdash71964's] attitude that blacks are somehow helpless victims of Planned Parenthood that is insulting and demeaning.
He's simply displaying the typical projection of the anti-choice movement.

Anti-choice efforts, if they succeed, will accomplish only one thing: they will make women less able to access safe medical care. This will disproportionately impact poor women. Wealthy women will not have any problem getting safe medical abortions, just like they had no problem getting them back before Roe. It is poor women who will be denied the right to choose.

Because of the ethnic and economic demographics of the USA, this means anti-choice laws will disproportionately impact women of color.

The natural anti-choice reaction to being busted on something is to immediately turn around and try to blame pro-choicers for that very flaw.

For instance, anti-choice policies decrease the health of women and children, so anti-choicers turn around and try to claim that abortions are harmful to women (they're actually less medically dangerous and harmful than childbirth), or that organizations like Planned Parenthood are "baby-killers" (when they actually do more to provide prenatal and postnatal care than any "pro-life" organization in the country).

Thus, when anti-choicers are busted on how their propositions will disproportionately impact women of color, and will be particularly devastating to poor women and their families, the anti-choice response is to try to spin the situation to accuse pro-choicers of being racist and classist.

Yawn.

After a few years of dealing with anti-choicers, it actually gets rather boring. Always the same recycled crap, always the same psychological hang-ups, over and over and over. Just imagine if they put as much energy into helping protect health and life as they put into CONVINCING people that they're protecting health and life.

Hmmmm... To anyone who objects to abortion on a religious basis, where do fetuses go when they're aborted? :D

Hmmmm... To anyone who objects to abortion on a religious basis, where do fetuses go when they're aborted? :D

They make them into dumplings.

I didn't say decrease, I said "reduction in growth rate"

And according to the percentages shown, the birth rate of blacks in America is literally halved by abortions rates in the black community.




I've never said any such thing, not once. You project those ideas and pretend that I've made those claims.



I don't recall that I used the word genocide, I think it was you that brought it to the table (although I have seen it used, I didn't)



I didn't use the word 'trick' either. You seem to be making a lot of wrong claims about what I've said.

my but youre coy. you post a pamphlet that suggests that planned parenthood is a genocide organization against black women, put up no critical analysis of its claims, then say "oh i didnt say that" when called on the points.

if you dont agree with the pamphlet and its background assumptions, say so. otherwise you are being dishonest when you post it then back off on its claims.

my original post was about the pamphlet and its obvious flaws in logic. you supported their conclusions, i attacked the obvious assumptions. if the assumptions arent correct, the conclusions arent either.

there is NO 50% reduction in the number of black births. this stance assumes a fated number of children or a fated number of pregnancies that if a woman aborts one, it affects the ultimate number of children she will have.

if a woman aborts a pregnancy when she is young, it does not affect how many children she will choose to have later. she will still have 1-3 children. she will just have them at an older more stable age. if she DOES have a child when she is young, she WONT have 1-3 MORE children at an older more stable age. she will have 1 or 2.

the PAMPHLET that you are so enamored of implies genocide, it implies strongly that PP locates in poor black neighborhoods in order to take advantage of poor black women and trick them into getting abortions. if you dont agree with that implication, why arent you saying so?

Hmmmm... To anyone who objects to abortion on a religious basis, where do fetuses go when they're aborted? :D

A biohazard bag? The incinerator?

A biohazard bag? The incinerator?

Nah. It's dumplings, like I said.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472458/

See?

After a few years of dealing with anti-choicers, it actually gets rather boring. Always the same recycled crap, always the same psychological hang-ups, over and over and over. Just imagine if they put as much energy into helping protect health and life as they put into CONVINCING people that they're protecting health and life.
I feel the same way.. sort of. That almost perfectly sums up just about every pro-abortion zealot I've ever met. Hateful, indoctrinated and most notably, clueless.

I feel the same way.. That almost perfectly sums up just about every deathmon... pro-abortion zealot I've ever met. Hateful, indoctrinated and most notably, clueless.
I knew an anti-choicer would step up to prove my point about projection sooner or later, but I have to admit...this is sooner than I expected!

I hope you're not really just somebody's puppet nation trolling around. :D

Hmmmm... To anyone who objects to abortion on a religious basis, where do fetuses go when they're aborted? :DThe hotdogs factory.

Oh wait, do you mean in the spiritual sense? Hell of course, since they're not baptized. There they get roasted and handed out as snacks..

I feel the same way.. sort of. That almost perfectly sums up just about every pro-abortion zealot I've ever met. Hateful, indoctrinated and most notably, clueless.

Where do you find these "pro-abortion zealots"?

Where do you find these "pro-abortion zealots"?

Haven't you seen us hanging outside hospital clinics waving signs and screaming insults at pregnant women who want to give birth?

*goes off to make bomb*

Haven't you seen us hanging outside hospital clinics waving signs and screaming insults at pregnant women who want to give birth?

*goes off to make bomb*

No, totally missed you. Guess you need to yell louder. *nodnod*

So, everybody, what's up? My first post in a long, long time.

At my school (high school, ages 14-18) there was a pro-life demonstration, where a lot of kids put the tape over there mouths saying "LIFE." (If you live in the US, you probably have seen this.) They went the whole day without saying anything because of the aforementioned tape. It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

So, the only really bad thing was that a couple of kids really are rabid about it. They asked me if I want one, and I said no thanks. They proceeded to ask me if I was pro-life. I said no. They launched into a tirade about how I'm a baby-killer, and that I was going to hell. Continued this for five minutes, until I said, fuck this, I'm out, and just left. There's no point arguing with some people.

So, my question is this: what are your views on abortion? Personally, I believe in the fundamental right of a woman (or man, but that would be wierd) to choose. What do you think/feel? And isn't it annoying when people are so rabidly committed to a belief that they refuse to reason?

I don't agree with abortions BUT at the same time legislation isn't the answer.

The answer to reducing rates of abortion is through comprehensive sex education so that people have the tools to allow them to protect themselves when having sex, thus, enable them to make informed choices and reduce the likelihood of an unwanted pregnancy.

Many people on this forum are voicing moderate views, i.e. abortion is bad, or not good, or a sensitive issue BUT it should not be regulated by the government. Most polls in the US seem to find that most people seem to fit into these opinions with significant variation on the fringes.

The question then becomes "why?" Why does abortion seem to be such a significant issue in the media and in political races in America while most Americans are happy with the current legal structure? :confused:

I would propose that the simple answer is that the issue of abortion is a very easy tool for both parties in the republicratic system. The republicans use this issue to draw in Christian voters who sided with democrats for the bulk of the 20th century for other moral reasons (welfare, social aid, education, and general assistance for the poor is a central Christian belief). With the abortion issue they can gain Christian voters while gouging social welfare of all types. The Democrats have even begun to move in to the prolife/antichoice field to win back these voters in the South and West, but cannot move to far because of their ties to the literati who generally tow the libertarian (keep the government off my body) line.

I knew an anti-choicer would step up to prove my point about projection sooner or later, but I have to admit...this is sooner than I expected!

I hope you're not really just somebody's puppet nation trolling around. :D
Prove your point? Your intolerance maybe, but no such point was even asserted. As mudslinging isn't really any type of valid point.


EDIT: And yes I know that I did the same thing, but I was fully aware of and only did it to make a point of my own. And well... I guess I kind of get a kick out of watching ideologues throw tantrums and or look stupid. :P

So that's sort of a yes and a no on your second question. ;)

Many people on this forum are voicing moderate views, i.e. abortion is bad, or not good, or a sensitive issue BUT it should not be regulated by the government. Most polls in the US seem to find that most people seem to fit into these opinions with significant variation on the fringes.

The question then becomes "why?" Why does abortion seem to be such a significant issue in the media and in political races in America while most Americans are happy with the current legal structure? :confused:

I would propose that the simple answer is that the issue of abortion is a very easy tool for both parties in the republicratic system. The republicans use this issue to draw in Christian voters who sided with democrats for the bulk of the 20th century for other moral reasons (welfare, social aid, education, and general assistance for the poor is a central Christian belief). With the abortion issue they can gain Christian voters while gouging social welfare of all types. The Democrats have even begun to move in to the prolife/antichoice field to win back these voters in the South and West, but cannot move to far because of their ties to the literati who generally tow the libertarian (keep the government off my body) line.

BINGO!

and it works.

Many people on this forum are voicing moderate views, i.e. abortion is bad, or not good, or a sensitive issue BUT it should not be regulated by the government. Most polls in the US seem to find that most people seem to fit into these opinions with significant variation on the fringes.

The question then becomes "why?" Why does abortion seem to be such a significant issue in the media and in political races in America while most Americans are happy with the current legal structure? :confused:

I would propose that the simple answer is that the issue of abortion is a very easy tool for both parties in the republicratic system. The republicans use this issue to draw in Christian voters who sided with democrats for the bulk of the 20th century for other moral reasons (welfare, social aid, education, and general assistance for the poor is a central Christian belief). With the abortion issue they can gain Christian voters while gouging social welfare of all types. The Democrats have even begun to move in to the prolife/antichoice field to win back these voters in the South and West, but cannot move to far because of their ties to the literati who generally tow the libertarian (keep the government off my body) line.

The problem I see is that Democrats are crap at articulating their position. I've watched several debates, and seen several of the high profile Democrats speech - quite frankly, they're crap. Someone needs to coach them on how to appeal to the Christian vote because right now everything they're saying isolates them further from them.

TCT is doing an excellent job as usual, so I'll limit myself to pointing out that you've severely distorted those statistics.

503 abortions per 1,000 live births translates to 33.47% of black pregnancies ending in termination, NOT 50.3% and NOT "literally halving" the black birth rate, even before considering Ashmoria's point that abortion is unlikely to change the number of children a woman has in her lifetime.

100*[503/(503+1000)]=33.47

This compares to 14.31% of white pregnancies ending in termination.

100*[167/(167+1000)]=14.31

This is very basic mathematics.


Very good, my bad.

Anyone read Freakanomics? It turns out legalizing abortion was the #1 crime prevention measure taken by the United States. I won't go through the whole argument (backed up by facts) but it turns out the children who would have been born are the ones who had more chance of growing up to be crimminals (ie lower income, unwanted, low education) Kinda funny in a grim sorta way.

But really, NO ONE has an abortion instead of using birth control. What kind of sense would that make? Instead of paying $20 a month for the pill or picking up some free condoms from the numerous sources (clinics, school, dad's medicine cabinet, etc) , you pay $200-300 to get major surgery? If anyone thinks that way, I don't think their kids have much of a shot anyways.

I believe (I don't have the statistics) that most people that get abortions do so because their birth control failed somehow or they stupidly got drunk and slept with a guy without realizing it. If and when I have daughters, they are going on the pill once they hit 16!

A pill a day keeps the baby away. :P

Oh, p.s. just in case you didn't realize it, if you're taking antibiotics, THE PILL DOESN'T WORK!!!! Friend of mine didn't realize it and bad things happened.

The problem I see is that Democrats are crap at articulating their position. I've watched several debates, and seen several of the high profile Democrats speech - quite frankly, they're crap. Someone needs to coach them on how to appeal to the Christian vote because right now everything they're saying isolates them further from them.
It's funny, because I have the opposite reaction. I feel that Democrats spend waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time and energy appealing to Christians and "faith voters," and that they would be far better off if they stopped altogether.

It's funny, because I have the opposite reaction. I feel that Democrats spend waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time and energy appealing to Christians and "faith voters," and that they would be far better off if they stopped altogether.

They might as well. It's not as if it's been working anyway.

They might as well. It's not as if it's been working anyway.
Precisely.

There are some people who will never vote for a pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-secular government party. That's fine, and I'm comfortable with those people having a party that they feel represents their values. But I'm not comfortable with all the parties feeling the need to pander to them even if it means making every party anti-choice, anti-gay, and pro-theocracy.

The Democrats need to realize that some people simply will never vote Democrat. That's okay. The Dems should worry more about representing Democrats, and less about trying to convince die-hard 25%-ers to switch camps.

Precisely.

There are some people who will never vote for a pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-secular government party. That's fine, and I'm comfortable with those people having a party that they feel represents their values. But I'm not comfortable with all the parties feeling the need to pander to them even if it means making every party anti-choice, anti-gay, and pro-theocracy.

The Democrats need to realize that some people simply will never vote Democrat. That's okay. The Dems should worry more about representing Democrats, and less about trying to convince die-hard 25%-ers to switch camps.

I'd certainly respect them more if they were to do as you advise. I still wouldn't vote for them any more than I would vote for the Republican Party, but at least I could respect them as a party. I'd like to be able to do that.

Anyone read Freakanomics? It turns out legalizing abortion was the #1 crime prevention measure taken by the United States. I won't go through the whole argument (backed up by facts) but it turns out the children who would have been born are the ones who had more chance of growing up to be crimminals (ie lower income, unwanted, low education) Kinda funny in a grim sorta way.

But really, NO ONE has an abortion instead of using birth control. What kind of sense would that make? Instead of paying $20 a month for the pill or picking up some free condoms from the numerous sources (clinics, school, dad's medicine cabinet, etc) , you pay $200-300 to get major surgery? If anyone thinks that way, I don't think their kids have much of a shot anyways.

I believe (I don't have the statistics) that most people that get abortions do so because their birth control failed somehow or they stupidly got drunk and slept with a guy without realizing it. If and when I have daughters, they are going on the pill once they hit 16!

A pill a day keeps the baby away. :P

Oh, p.s. just in case you didn't realize it, if you're taking antibiotics, THE PILL DOESN'T WORK!!!! Friend of mine didn't realize it and bad things happened.


16? Couple years too late, think 13-14.

my but youre coy. you post a pamphlet that suggests that planned parenthood is a genocide organization against black women, put up no critical analysis of its claims, then say "oh i didnt say that" when called on the points.

if you dont agree with the pamphlet and its background assumptions, say so. otherwise you are being dishonest when you post it then back off on its claims.

my original post was about the pamphlet and its obvious flaws in logic. you supported their conclusions, i attacked the obvious assumptions. if the assumptions arent correct, the conclusions arent either.

there is NO 50% reduction in the number of black births. this stance assumes a fated number of children or a fated number of pregnancies that if a woman aborts one, it affects the ultimate number of children she will have.

if a woman aborts a pregnancy when she is young, it does not affect how many children she will choose to have later. she will still have 1-3 children. she will just have them at an older more stable age. if she DOES have a child when she is young, she WONT have 1-3 MORE children at an older more stable age. she will have 1 or 2.

the PAMPHLET that you are so enamored of implies genocide, it implies strongly that PP locates in poor black neighborhoods in order to take advantage of poor black women and trick them into getting abortions. if you dont agree with that implication, why arent you saying so?

You are making as many assumptions as you accuse them of making. The black abortion statistics show that the reasons and methodology for white women do NOT correlate to the black community.

Approximately half of the women who will have an abortion this week will be having their second (or higher) abortion. And of those women that are having their 2nd or 3rd abortion, most of these women will be black women. Clearly the statistics of how and when white women use abortion does NOT apply to the black community.

If the black community represents less than 15% of the population, how can you sit there and pretend that institutionalized racist policies and socially engineered racial conditions doesn't play a role in producing the fact that black women are the highest percentage of women who have multiple abortion procedures?

Clearly, the white women statistics that you are presenting have no bearing on the actual results in the black community.

Race/ethnicity % Population/% of 1 / % of 2
White non-Hispanic 65.7 / 45.5 / 35.9
Black non-Hispanic 13.9 / 26.2 / 37.7

Percentage of women in the population who have had an abortion 3 or more times.
White 13.7%
Black 25.7%
So if you are a black women, it is twice as likely for you to have had 3 or more abortions than if you are a white woman.

LINK (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/11/21/or29.pdf) (.pdf warning)

I'd certainly respect them more if they were to do as you advise. I still wouldn't vote for them any more than I would vote for the Republican Party, but at least I could respect them as a party. I'd like to be able to do that.
Yeah. Right now I feel like we have the Republican Party and the Party Of Republicans Who Don't Want To Risk Making Anybody Angry (aka Democrats). Bletch.

I don't know about abortion, but I feel very strongly that everybody should go through life with tape over their mouth.

Percentage of women in the population who have 3 or more abortions
White 13.7%
Black 25.7%
So if you are a black women, it is twice as likely for you to have had 3 or more abortions than if you are a white woman.Those numbers don't strike you as patently ridiculous?
Surely that can't be a percentage of the whole female population. That's over one abortion per three women.

And as suspected, in the pdf-article, it's a percentage not of the population, but only of the group of women that had abortions (that year)

Those numbers don't strike you as patently ridiculous?
Surely that can't be a percentage of the whole female population. That's over one abortion per three women.

And as suspected, in the pdf-article, it's a percentage not of the population, but only of the group of women that had abortions (that year)

You are correct, I misrepresented what the number means, of all the women that have had abortions, those are percentages of who has had 3 or more.

However, your objection was incorrect in assuming less women have had abortions. 35% of all women in America will have an abortion.

About half of American women have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates more than one-third (35%) will have had an abortion by age 45.So it seems that the statistics show that there is just over 1 out of every 3 women will have an abortion.
link (http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html)


To correct and clarify the numbers I posted before, I’ll post them again with the title of the chart they are from:
TABLE 4.3 Percentage distribution of women who have had abortions, by social and demographic characteristics, according to number of abortions, 2000–2001 APS

3 or more:
White 13.7
Black 25.7 (page 28 of the report)
link (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/11/21/or29.pdf)
(.pdf warning)

At my school (high school, ages 14-18) there was a pro-life demonstration, where a lot of kids put the tape over there mouths saying "LIFE." (If you live in the US, you probably have seen this.) They went the whole day without saying anything because of the aforementioned tape. It was really interesting to see people I never would have pegged as rabidly pro-life wearing the tape.

Really, you don't say. No I've never heard of such a thing. I did hear once of a local pro-gay group staging a silence day but without the tape. A lot of people weren't really happy about that because kids should spend their days listening and speaking (both to ask and answer questions) and spend other time in whatever protest they want. The people who complained about it were oddly pro-life people but I'm sure they would have complained about the pro-life silence thing as well had they known.

And as you pointed out they tried both peer pressure and guilt tactics to get you to join. That's a big no no, and perhaps one day they might learn that, or perhaps not, some people are thick in the head for life.

Abortion is one of those odd topics. Both parties in the US take it to opposite extreemes. Most people in a party are not aware of the extreeme position of their own party, which is designed for only a minority within their party. Most people are somewhere in the middle. People who argue for the people in the middle tend to get shot at by the extreemist on both sides.

Since I don't want to get shot at by anyone, I not going to give my own personal opinion. :p

I'm on a borrowed computer and can't respond fully at this time, but I wanted to make a few observations.

I'll respond to your post when I get a chance, but in the meantime, care to provide some evidence for the many factual assertions you make above?

The mere fact that black women are disproportionately represented in abortion statistics does not prove all the points you are trying to make.

Quoted because Balderdash failed to answer this challenge.

You know,

There is a reason(s) that the Black American community is not the largest minority community in America anymore.

And perhaps you think it's because the Black community is really good at using contraceptives?

Or maybe you think it is because Texas doesn't have a big enough Wall to protect the border from uninvited neighbors?

Really?

What reason do you think is behind it if not the reduction in growth rate in the black community?

Um. WTF are you babbling about? The black population in this country is growing. The birth rate for black women is essentially the same as that for white women (58.5 vs 60) and black women have more children per 1,000 than white women (1,361 vs 1.159). link (http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p20-555.pdf) (pdf, page 2)

The only evidence you have of this "reduction in growth rate" is the rate of abortions, but white women have more abortions overall than black women have (even if black women have abortions at a higher rate).

Finally, are you really going to contend the world would be a better place if black women did not have reproductive freedom and family planning services?

*snip*
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

According to that, it is even worse then I projected...
White women, abortions vs. births: 167-1000 (16.7%)
Black women, abortions vs. births: 503-1000 (50.3%)

Yawn. Your statistical error has already been pointed out. Regardless, these are the CDC figures of which I was already aware of (I linked them earlier in this thread). I granted that black women have a disproportionate rate of abortions, but challenged you to provide proof for your many other dubious claims. You respond with evidence we've already discussed. :rolleyes:

AS to the lack of abortion providers in non-black areas...
The lack of abortion providers is underscored by the fact that 86% of counties in the United States have no abortion services.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic5.htm

how does the shortage of abortion providers overall prove that there is a lack of abortion providers for white women and a glut of providers for black women?

Remember, white women do have more abortions, so they must have access to providers.

BTW, regarding what type of neighborhoods Planned Parenthood clinics are based in you have to realize (1) not all PP clinics provide abortions services, (2) only 3% of services provided by PP are abortion-related, and (3) PP are intended to provide cheap or free services (such as contraceptives, STD testing, and cancer screening) to lower-income women. Higher income women have access to those services from other providers.


It’s a well publicized occurrence that the number of abortion providers in the US is on the decline. With only 600+ hospitals out of 5800+ hospitals in the nation providing them, something like 94% of all abortions are done in clinics apparently. Additionally, we know that clinics are few and far between in rural counties and central and western states. The vast majority of states without a black community do not have abortion providers in those states. IF I’m wrong, it should be verifiable, but I don’t know of an abundance of clinics in states like Wyoming, the Dakotas, Idaho, Montana, Iowa etc., where the white poverty level is high but there is almost no access to abortion providers.

The above are all undocumented assertions so they hardly answer the call for proof. Moreover, even if taken as true, they don't prove the points you were asked to prove.

BTW, there are both black people and abortion providers in states like Idaho.

I didn't say decrease, I said "reduction in growth rate"

And according to the percentages shown, the birth rate of blacks in America is literally halved by abortions rates in the black community.

I've never said any such thing, not once. You project those ideas and pretend that I've made those claims.

I don't recall that I used the word genocide, I think it was you that brought it to the table (although I have seen it used, I didn't)

I didn't use the word 'trick' either. You seem to be making a lot of wrong claims about what I've said.

Again, your statistical error has already been pointed out -- as has the fact that you quoted and defended the klanparenthood nonsense but now act like you didn't make those assertions.

You are making as many assumptions as you accuse them of making. The black abortion statistics show that the reasons and methodology for white women do NOT correlate to the black community.

Complete non sequitur. Simply because black women have a disproportionate and higher rate of abortion does not mean that other statistics regarding abortion don't apply to black women. Black women are not two-headed aliens. They are simply women with a certain ethnic heritage and/or skin color.

Approximately half of the women who will have an abortion this week will be having their second (or higher) abortion. And of those women that are having their 2nd or 3rd abortion, most of these women will be black women. Clearly the statistics of how and when white women use abortion does NOT apply to the black community.

Again, this doesn't follow. You actually have to link the statistic you are citing with your argument.

If the black community represents less than 15% of the population, how can you sit there and pretend that institutionalized racist policies and socially engineered racial conditions doesn't play a role in producing the fact that black women are the highest percentage of women who have multiple abortion procedures?

You just keep repeating yourself. I've already responded to this line of argument. You have yet to explain how abortion rates are a cause of institutional racism instead of a by-product. You have yet to explain how denying black women reproductive freedom would be a step against institutional racism.

Clearly, the white women statistics that you are presenting have no bearing on the actual results in the black community.

You keep saying that, but haven't actually proven it.

Race/ethnicity % Population/% of 1 / % of 2
White non-Hispanic 65.7 / 45.5 / 35.9
Black non-Hispanic 13.9 / 26.2 / 37.7

Percentage of women in the population who have had an abortion 3 or more times.
White 13.7%
Black 25.7%
So if you are a black women, it is twice as likely for you to have had 3 or more abortions than if you are a white woman.

LINK (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/11/21/or29.pdf) (.pdf warning)

As you admit below, you misrepresent these statistics.

Moreover, you misrepresent the overall study about repeat abortions and draw unfounded conclusions. For example, the study says "several studies have found that women who obtained repeat abortions were more likely to have been using contraceptive methods when they became pregnant than women who were having their first abortion." (page 9, emphasis added). The study continues to explain that women who have repeat abortions are
likely to be selectively different for some a variety of reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with race, but rather with factors like fertility, age, number of children born, etc.

You are correct, I misrepresented what the number means, of all the women that have had abortions, those are percentages of who has had 3 or more.

However, your objection was incorrect in assuming less women have had abortions. 35% of all women in America will have an abortion.

About half of American women have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates more than one-third (35%) will have had an abortion by age 45.So it seems that the statistics show that there is just over 1 out of every 3 women will have an abortion.
link (http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/2005/06/28/abortionoverview.html)

Um. This statistic doesn't help your argument. If abortion is some sort of racist conspiracy, why do so many white women have abortions?

Quoted because Balderdash failed to answer this challenge.

If you actually read the links I’ve provided, by both the CDC AND the Guttmacher.pdf report about repeat abortions, you will find that I have been referring to their findings quite a bit.

Um. WTF are you babbling about? The black population in this country is growing. The birth rate for black women is essentially the same as that for white women (58.5 vs 60) and black women have more children per 1,000 than white women (1,361 vs 1.159). link (http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p20-555.pdf) (pdf, page 2)
Of course it’s growing, I said it was growing slower than it would be otherwise. In fact, the ratio of black women having a baby in the last 12 months IS slightly higher than it is for white women, however, the percentage of black abortions is three times higher than it is for white women. Obviously the number of unwanted pregnancies in the black community must be vastly higher than in the white community if they can have 3x more abortions by percentage of population and still maintain the birth rate of whites by percentage of population.

The only evidence you have of this "reduction in growth rate" is the rate of abortions, but white women have more abortions overall than black women have (even if black women have abortions at a higher rate).

Black women have a higher repeat abortion rate then white women, that’s NOT percentage, straight up numbers. Of repeat abortion totals, more women are black than white, period. Read the report, look for black statistics, do NOT assume that what is said about ‘averages’ applies to blacks, averages were made by including the white women statistics (obviously).

Finally, are you really going to contend the world would be a better place if black women did not have reproductive freedom and family planning services?

America would be a more fair place for the black community IF clinics that make money from abortions where not intentionally targeted to their communities. IF clinics are really supposed to produce a higher percentage of birth control use in the communities they are in then why is birth control use in the black community the lowest percentage of birth control use of any race and ethnic group in America? It is either because the clinics don't relly have that as a primary goal OR they don’t effectively expand the use of birth control in the community they are in (i'll concede I think it is the second, not the prior, I don't believe it is 'intentional' racism now, even if it did begin that way many decades ago. But either way, we still have now what the racist started then).

Yawn. Your statistical error has already been pointed out. Regardless, these are the CDC figures of which I was already aware of (I linked them earlier in this thread). I granted that black women have a disproportionate rate of abortions, but challenged you to provide proof for your many other dubious claims. You respond with evidence we've already discussed. :rolleyes:

You’ve already agreed that the black community is over represented in abortions, now I’ve shown that they are even more over represented in repeat abortions (and repeat abortions are nearly half of all abortions daily). All of this is evidence that the black community is overly targeted by the industry because they managed to make 14% of the population able to be the majority of all groups in having repeat abortions. That shouldn't be possible unless there are extra forces influencing the trends, and I’m saying that these extra forces influencing the poverty, health and education of the black community (institutionalize racism) is ALSO shown through the abortion statistics of black women.

how does the shortage of abortion providers overall prove that there is a lack of abortion providers for white women and a glut of providers for black women?

The clinics are located in Black communities, whereas clinics are not present in exclusively white poor communitys (like the states I already pointed out and will address further below)

Remember, white women do have more abortions, so they must have access to providers.

It’s not like white women can’t use the clinics located in black communities. Additionally, white women don’t have as many multiple abortions, so access is less frequent and/or it must be harder to get frequent access…

BTW, regarding what type of neighborhoods Planned Parenthood clinics are based in you have to realize (1) not all PP clinics provide abortions services, (2) only 3% of services provided by PP are abortion-related, and (3) PP are intended to provide cheap or free services (such as contraceptives, STD testing, and cancer screening) to lower-income women. Higher income women have access to those services from other providers.

I’ve already shown that most hospitals don’t provide abortions, but hospitals do provide all the other services you’ve mentioned. Black women have access to those resources the same as white women, black communities don’t need the ‘additional’ help of the clinics in their own communities (short of claiming black women are less capable of the effort, which would need to be scrutinized for racial bigotry to assume black women are less capable than women of other races). If other women are expected to travel for the service, black women can too, why focus clinics in black communities unless one thinks that black birth rates represent a specific threat above and beyond other community birth rates?

The above are all undocumented assertions so they hardly answer the call for proof. Moreover, even if taken as true, they don't prove the points you were asked to prove.

BTW, there are both black people and abortion providers in states like Idaho.

Documented or not, I’m making the claim and sticking to it. The vast majority of the black communities are located in a limited number of states.
While Blacks resided in every state in 2004, about 1 of every 4 Blacks lived in three states (New York, Florida, and Georgia). Blacks represented about one-third or more of the population in the District of Columbia, Mississippi, and Louisiana. Blacks represented less than 5 percent of the population in 20 states.
In 2004, nearly 60 percent of all Blacks in the United States lived in ten states (New York, Florida, Georgia, Texas, California, Illinois, North Carolina, Maryland, Louisiana, and Virginia).
http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/acs-04.pdf

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee218/Balderdash71964/percentblackbystate2004.gif

Again, your statistical error has already been pointed out -- as has the fact that you quoted and defended the klanparenthood nonsense but now act like you didn't make those assertions.

I pointed out what they said, and some of their stats do raise eyebrows. Whether or not a “Greenpeace” brochure is outrageously over the top in scare tactic language, they can raise interesting points that are worthy of discussion. The same with the chicken little KLANPARENTHOOD group. Their language is over the top but their statistics seem to hold some truths that are worth discussing. To pretend that these statistics are false (when that has not been shown yet) is simply choosing to close one’s own eyes to the systematic racism prevalent in the black communities that we already recognize (by you and I) elsewhere.


Complete non sequitur. Simply because black women have a disproportionate and higher rate of abortion does not mean that other statistics regarding abortion don't apply to black women. Black women are not two-headed aliens. They are simply women with a certain ethnic heritage and/or skin color.

Riiight, and there is no racism in America.

Again, this doesn't follow. You actually have to link the statistic you are citing with your argument.

In this post (above) I’ve gone into further detail about black multiple abortions… But here’s some more:
Population Percentage
White non-Hispanic 65%.
Black non-Hispanic 13.9%

1st abortion percentage by race
White non-Hispanic 45.6%
Black non-Hispanic 26.2%

2nd abortion
White non-Hispanic 35.9%
Black non-Hispanic 37.7%

3rd abortion
White non-Hispanic 30.7%
Black non-Hispanic 40.0%

4rth abortion
White non-Hispanic 27. 1%
Black non-Hispanic 46.4%

Page 62 of: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/11/21/or29.pdf

More black women period, not percentage wise. More multiple abortions by black women than ALL of the 65% of whit women in America. It's rather telling that there is something more than just poverty going on here, or else poor white women would still out number black women and whites would be the majority of multiple abortion recipients. But they are not.

You just keep repeating yourself. I've already responded to this line of argument. You have yet to explain how abortion rates are a cause of institutional racism instead of a by-product. You have yet to explain how denying black women reproductive freedom would be a step against institutional racism.

I didn’t say black women should be denied admittance to clinics, did I? Why pretend that I did?

You keep saying that, but haven't actually proven it.

The fact that white women don’t have multiple abortions like black women do simply proves that the statistics why white women STOP at one or two are things that don’t apply to the black women because the black community does not share those traits. That is one of what is likely to be a very many different reasons black women traits and white women traits are not shared traits.

As you admit below, you misrepresent these statistics.

Moreover, you misrepresent the overall study about repeat abortions and draw unfounded conclusions. For example, the study says "several studies have found that women who obtained repeat abortions were more likely to have been using contraceptive methods when they became pregnant than women who were having their first abortion." (page 9, emphasis added). The study continues to explain that women who have repeat abortions are likely to be selectively different for some a variety of reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with race, but rather with factors like fertility, age, number of children born, etc.

You see what you said right there? Now look up at my last response, then look at the multiple abortions statistics and how black women don’t stop having them like white women, and then read your quote just here. I did NOT misrepresent the overall study, I already said what applies to overall statistics, like your quote there, clearly does NOT apply to the study when black community results are looked at exclusively. Black statistics are different than white statistics, it shown in the report all over the palce (in nearly every aspect), race does not give an easy cop-out 'excuse' for the results though, as they are saying there, and I agree with that as well. We can't just 'excuse' the results and say, well that 'bad thing' only applies to a minority group etc., etc., and I agree it doesn not give people an easy cop-out to 'blame the blacks.'

Um. This statistic doesn't help your argument. If abortion is some sort of racist conspiracy, why do so many white women have abortions?

Are you serious? Two things, first, that quote was to show the 1 ou of 3 women do have abortions, and second, do you want me to use your argument for prison and crime ratios? If prison sentences are some sort of racist conspiracy, why do so many white men end up in prison? See, it doesn’t really work, does it? Your not really going to take that stand are you?

*snip*

Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument seems to be that abortion clinics are deliberately placed around black communities in some kind of effort to decrease their numbers.

Is it not possible that the demand comes first and the supply second?

As has been pointed out, black communities, for a variety of reasons, tend to be poorer communities, with more broken homes and social disharmony as a result, which therefore trends to more abortions as people question their ability to raise a child effectively and provide quality of life.

So the solution, again, is for better education all around in order to raise the overall quality of life for everyone rather than imply that it's some sort of drive to wipe out black people.

I simply question 'intentionally targeted at' over simple meeting of demand.

Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument seems to be that abortion clinics are deliberately placed around black communities in some kind of effort to decrease their numbers.

Many of the black communities have had these clinics placed in them even before roe vs. wade in 1973 made the abortion question paramount. The placement of the clinics in the early and middle twentieth century came at a time when it would have been done on purpose. It might just be a part of the institutionalized racism that is left over from many decades ago still in effect by default, not continued intentional purpose.

Is it not possible that the demand comes first and the supply second? Black women have more demand for abortion then white women? Why is that?

If there is a McDonald in my community, the odds are we will eat there more often than the people in a community that doesn't have a McDonalds within 70 miles of their community... Supply creates demand in that case, why would clinics not be the same?

As has been pointed out, black communities, for a variety of reasons, tend to be poorer communities, with more broken homes and social disharmony as a result, which therefore trends to more abortions as people question their ability to raise a child effectively and provide quality of life.

Yes they do suffer these things. And much of these conditions are reinforced through institutionalized racist policies/conditions that keep these communities like that. They have to be allowed to recreate their own communities to create better futures for their children...

So the solution, again, is for better education all around in order to raise the overall quality of life for everyone rather than imply that it's some sort of drive to wipe out black people.

Agreed (whether it is a simple solution I don't know, but with the idea, yes).

I simply question 'intentionally targeted at' over simple meeting of demand.

I don't claim that it is currently 'intentionally targeted' anymore. My claim is that it might have been originally targeted for racist reasons decades ago when racism was not just accepted but practiced openly by the institutions in America, but we are now left with policies and methodologies that they created and we perpetuate that original racism by our lack of questioning the reasons for what we do when we continue to do it. Like questioning ourselves with this, why do we put clinics in poor black communities more often than in poor white communities?

Like other things that perpetuate the current bad conditions in the black communities, like poor education, poor job opportunities, poor healthcare use (I say use not care for this reason, even when blacks have health care insurance they receive a lower level of health care coverage, for unspecified and maybe unclear reasons, but statistically verifiable results all the same), and those things go hand in hand with clinic location choices.

Black women have more demand for abortion then white women? Why is that?

If there is a McDonald in my community, the odds are we will eat there more often than the people in a community that doesn't have a McDonalds within 70 miles of their community... Supply creates demand in that case, why would clinics not be the same?

...because there's a difference between popping out to get a burger and deciding whether to go through a pregnancy or not? It seems you make it sound as though these decisions are similar in emotional weight, as though someone fancies popping out for an abortion of a boring Tuesday night.

McDonalds is a choice, abortion is a decision - the difference may seem slight but it's the difference between attracting people to a product and providing a safe, necessary service.

Even disregarding this, surely McDonalds will conduct a feasibility study on whether a branch will be profitable, closing down those that prove not to be. If there's no demand, bye bye supply.

There may be a moral issue concerning someone who makes business out of exploiting poor communities but I'm not sure that's the case here and that's certainly not intentionally coaxing people into abortion with say, membership cards, discounts and promotions.

Finally, there's been discussion on the meaning of numbers but is there any evidence, a news report, for example, or anything similar that outlines this intentional targeting - either long ago or right now?

...because there's a difference between popping out to get a burger and deciding whether to go through a pregnancy or not? It seems you make it sound as though these decisions are similar in emotional weight, as though someone fancies popping out for an abortion of a boring Tuesday night.

McDonalds is a choice, abortion is a decision - the difference may seem slight but it's the difference between attracting people to a product and providing a safe, necessary service.

Even disregarding this, surely McDonalds will conduct a feasibility study on whether a branch will be profitable, closing down those that prove not to be. If there's no demand, bye bye supply.

As has been pointed out several times in this thread, clinics provide MORE than just abortions. People go there for many reason, thus, the closer it is, the more you will use it. The analogy stands because I wasn’t comparing abortions to food, I was comparing convenience to frequency of use.


There may be a moral issue concerning someone who makes business out of exploiting poor communities but I'm not sure that's the case here and that's certainly not intentionally coaxing people into abortion with say, membership cards, discounts and promotions.

They do offer discounts. That's the draw, cheaper health care (which I agree isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but I'm pointing out that the coaxing is in the discount and ease of location).

Finally, there's been discussion on the meaning of numbers but is there any evidence, a news report, for example, or anything similar that outlines this intentional targeting - either long ago or right now?

Instead of re-writing what others have already done, But I admit I haven't tried to confirm the accusations in this link myself (as in, if the source is wrong I won't stand behind it...) but I'll link directly to the accusations from the Black Americans For Life, click on the Black Genocide button to the left there, they have a 'huge' essay on answering that very question you posted.

http://www.nrlc.org/bal/

http://www.nrlc.org/bal/

Maybe it's just me but that site is useless, none of the navigation works, aside from 2 links - Black Genocide, which is actually a discussion of someone called Sanger, who died in '66 and, honestly I'll need to read further on her - and Contact Us.

That site screams a front to me but, benefit of the doubt, I'll need to spend the time to look at it further. I'm also not sure if the links simply don't work for me.

Honest thing about it? as if I'm lying? :rolleyes:

Oh for crying out loud...

I look up the source myself: *google search*
http://www.klanparenthood.com/
Everything you have said in this thread so far has been a lie. Just because you are repeating the lies of the authors of that idiotic pamphlet, rather than making up original lies of your own, doen't mean the remarks are not lies.

Maybe it's just me but that site is useless, none of the navigation works, aside from 2 links - Black Genocide, which is actually a discussion of someone called Sanger, who died in '66 and, honestly I'll need to read further on her - and Contact Us.

That site screams a front to me but, benefit of the doubt, I'll need to spend the time to look at it further. I'm also not sure if the links simply don't work for me.

I haven't even looked at the site, but it's no doubt Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood.

http://www.notablebiographies.com/Ro-Sc/Sanger-Margaret.html

Apparently, she was quoted as making some racial remarks that are today considered insensitive at best and racist at worst, and anti-choicers love to jump on that as PROOF! (tm) that Planned Parenthood is a racist organization set up for the sole purpose of making black people extinct via abortion -- which is total bullshit, of course.

You are making as many assumptions as you accuse them of making. The black abortion statistics show that the reasons and methodology for white women do NOT correlate to the black community.

Approximately half of the women who will have an abortion this week will be having their second (or higher) abortion. And of those women that are having their 2nd or 3rd abortion, most of these women will be black women. Clearly the statistics of how and when white women use abortion does NOT apply to the black community.

If the black community represents less than 15% of the population, how can you sit there and pretend that institutionalized racist policies and socially engineered racial conditions doesn't play a role in producing the fact that black women are the highest percentage of women who have multiple abortion procedures?

Clearly, the white women statistics that you are presenting have no bearing on the actual results in the black community.

Race/ethnicity % Population/% of 1 / % of 2
White non-Hispanic 65.7 / 45.5 / 35.9
Black non-Hispanic 13.9 / 26.2 / 37.7

Percentage of women in the population who have had an abortion 3 or more times.
White 13.7%
Black 25.7%
So if you are a black women, it is twice as likely for you to have had 3 or more abortions than if you are a white woman.

LINK (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/11/21/or29.pdf) (.pdf warning)

you have confused my argument with someone else's.

of course racism is a factor in black women feeling that they need to abort a pregnancy. im not disputing that.

im disputing the PAMPHLET that you posted and seem to be very convinced by. this pamphlet suggests that planned parenthood is a tool of the white oppressors to keep the black population down.

the argument is patently absurd.

and the assumption that i am making, that the pamphlet and by association YOU are denying (unless you want to step back from your support of its assertions) is that black women are moral agents.

a black woman makes the decision to abort with the same moral authority as a white woman. she knows just as well as a white woman does where her own best interest and the best interest of her family lies.

the factors that contribute to that moral judgement do not change that she has made her own decision and has not been duped by planned parenthood.