NationStates Jolt Archive

After a series of ownership decisions that entirely bypassed the indigenous population, Tokelau has appealed to the UN for independence from New Zealand. When that succeeds, it'll be asking the US for an island back too.

In the White House's War Room a looming assault on American borders lingers unnoticed . . . but in the tiny Pacific nation of Tokelau, there's a pretty determined group of people who want their island back - just as soon as New Zealand gives them their independence.

Tokelau, three atolls which between them have no harbours, no airports, no capital and perhaps about four cars among 1466 people, will this week conduct another United Nations-supervised referendum on self-government from New Zealand.

[...] And they are quietly making it clear they also want a piece of their property back from Washington.

New Zealand gave it away against the people's will; an atoll the Americans call Swains Island but which Tokelauans call Olohega.

With a population of around 14, it's now part of American Samoa, and was a token in a grand piece of US imperialism in the 19th century.

[...] A "Captain Turnbull" showed up in Apia though, claiming to have discovered the atoll. An American, Eli Hutchinson Jennings Sr, purchased the sovereignty of the island from Turnbull and moved there with his Samoan wife in 1856 and raised the American flag. Tokelauans living there were not consulted. When he died in 1878, his widow took over ownership and it then passed on to her son, Eli Hutchinson Jennings Jr.

He ran it as a copra station.

[...] The US annexed Olohega in 1925, although the people of Tokelau were, again, never asked despite their tradition being that it was a close part of their culture. Their feelings were quietly ignored and even the UN took no notice.

[...] Tokelauans have not let the issue go and, despite New Zealand trying to stop them, their new constitution - which will come into force after independence - reasserts ownership of Olohega.

"At the dawn of time the historic islands of Atafu, Nukunonu, Fakaofo and Olohega were created as our home," the preamble states. "Since the days of Maui and Tui Tokelau, the land, sea and air have nurtured our people, and God has watched over us."

Briefing papers issued by the "government of Tokelau" for this week's vote reassert it all, saying "a cultural claim to Swains Island is a sensitive and longstanding issue for Tokelauans".

Before the Pentagon starts worrying, it should be noted that Tokelau has no armed forces or even a port or runway.


Any bets on what the US will say?

(link (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4245733a11.html))

I'd say no just to piss them off.

Think of the guano!

I'd say no just to piss them off.

Why am I not surprised?

"US threatens to bring democracy to Tuvalu, Tokkaido, Tokelau, whatever" is the next headline, guaranteed.

Ooooh! Oooooh! I know what the US will say!

"Tokelau? Where the hell is that? Europe or something?"

this is curious...
In fact, if an independent Tokelau ever finds itself at war with anybody, New Zealand is legally obliged to defend it.

if they are given their independance and made into their own solvern nation, why would New Zealand be legally obliged to defend them? I can see if a treaty was made after independance was granted to them...

and if it's part of America Samoa (thus being a US Territory) won't it be up to Samoa to give Olohega?

I doubt the US will be bothered by it...

if they are given their independance and made into their own solvern nation, why would New Zealand be legally obliged to defend them? I can see if a treaty was made after independance was granted to them...


That's because the article isn't detailed enough. In fact, Tokelau is voting on whether or not to cease being a colony, and become a "self-governing territory in free association with New Zealand" instead. That's the status the Cook Islands and Niue, both former NZ colonies, have. The referendum wouldn't give them sovereignty or complete independence, which the Tokelauans have said adamantly they do not want.

With self-government and free association, Tokelauans will continue to benefit from NZ citizenship. They'll have their own government, but no sovereignty of their own, so foreign affairs and defence will continue to be handled by New Zealand.

The reason they don't want complete independence is because they don't want to lose the advantages of being dependent on NZ.

That's because the article isn't detailed enough. In fact, Tokelau is voting on whether or not to cease being a colony, and become a "self-governing territory in free association with New Zealand" instead. That's the status the Cook Islands and Niue, both former NZ colonies, have. The referendum wouldn't give them sovereignty or complete independence, which the Tokelauans have said adamantly they do not want.

With self-government and free association, Tokelauans will continue to benefit from NZ citizenship. They'll have their own government, but no sovereignty of their own, so foreign affairs and defence will continue to be handled by New Zealand.

The reason they don't want complete independence is because they don't want to lose the advantages of being dependent on NZ.
So basically they want to Govern themselves with their own set of inner laws and judicial system, yet be supported by NZ...

I can't see the US giving an island (which might not be theirs to give, if it's apart of America Samoa) with nothing in return...

I can't see the US giving an island (which might not be theirs to give, if it's apart of America Samoa) with nothing in return...

Well, they annexed it without asking the Tokelauans' permission, and without giving anything in return.

Looks like Tokelauans prefer to be aligned to the NZ than USA.
I don't blame them.

Well, they annexed it without asking the Tokelauans' permission, and without giving anything in return.

But the article said it was purchased and is now part of America Samoa. Legally, the island is American soil as American Samoa is a territory. God I hate property disputes. They can be so messy. This will be interesting to watch though.

Well, they annexed it without asking the Tokelauans' permission, and without giving anything in return.

Actually one man "claimed" it for the USA and no one else on the island disputed it (if the article is accurate.)

Looks like Tokelauans prefer to be aligned to the NZ than USA.
I don't blame them.

They are already a colony of NZ Jeru :rolleyes:

Any bets on what the US will say?

something along the lines of "what are you guys talking about? we are not now and never have been an empire."

But the article said it was purchased and is now part of America Samoa. Legally, the island is American soil as American Samoa is a territory. God I hate property disputes. They can be so messy. This will be interesting to watch though.

Indeed. I'll be interested to see whether there's even an official response from Washington and/or Pago-Pago.

Nothing is going to happen about this. If it does and they try and occupy part of American Samoa the response from the Samoans will be to take it back. I don't think an official US response will be needed.

something along the lines of "what are you guys talking about? we are not now and never have been an empire."

I'd be curious to hear how many Americans actually know that the US was a colonial power in the good ole' basic imperialist sense in the Pacific, mainly in the 1880s and 1890s, then after the World Wars. The partitioning of Samoa -in a decision between the US, the UK and Germany, in which the Samoans themselves had no say- was reminiscent of a miniature "scramble for Africa".

The US took over Hawai'i, eastern Samoa (+ Olohega), Guam, the northern Marianas, what is now the FSM, the Marshall Islands and Palau.

I'd be curious to hear how many Americans actually know that the US was a colonial power in the good ole' basic imperialist sense in the Pacific, mainly in the 1880s and 1890s, then after the World Wars. The partitioning of Samoa -in a decision between the US, the UK and Germany, in which the Samoans themselves had no say- was reminiscent of a miniature "scramble for Africa".

The US took over Hawai'i, eastern Samoa (+ Olohega), Guam, the northern Marianas, what is now the FSM, the Marshall Islands and Palau.

Anyone that paid attention to their history classes would have some basic knowledge of this. I was taught this in public schools. WWII was thoroughly gone over at least it was when I was in school in the 70's and early 80's.

I'd be curious to hear how many Americans actually know that the US was a colonial power in the good ole' basic imperialist sense in the Pacific, mainly in the 1880s and 1890s, then after the World Wars. The partitioning of Samoa -in a decision between the US, the UK and Germany, in which the Samoans themselves had no say- was reminiscent of a miniature "scramble for Africa".

Pretty much.

The US took over Hawai'i, eastern Samoa (+ Olohega), Guam, the northern Marianas, what is now the FSM, the Marshall Islands and Palau.

Just a point here but the Marshall Islands and the Federated States of Micronesia are independent but under US protection. As for Palau, I believe the same for them as well. I will have to check on that.

Anyone that paid attention to their history classes would have some basic knowledge of this. I was taught this in public schools. WWII was thoroughly gone over at least it was when I was in school in the 70's and early 80's.

It was still talked about but not as detailed. Alot of it is glossed over due to "political correctness" these days.

It was still talked about but not as detailed. Alot of it is glossed over due to "political correctness" these days.

Gotta love political correctness.

Just a point here but the Marshall Islands and the Federated States of Micronesia are independent but under US protection. As for Palau, I believe the same for them as well. I will have to check on that.

I believe Palau is independent now with an agreement for defense from the US. However to lazy to look it up.

Gotta love political correctness.

... awww do I HAVE to?

... awww do I HAVE to?

Lol, you should know all about PC living in Hawaii. I could go on about my time over their and discussing politics but the day is not long enough.

The US annexed Olohega in 1925, although the people of Tokelau were, again, never asked despite their tradition being that it was a close part of their culture. Their feelings were quietly ignored and even the UN took no notice.
Wow - surprising that the UN didnt raise an objection to the annexation in 1925.
Statements like this just make the author look foolish and call everything else they have written into question.

Wow - surprising that the UN didnt raise an objection to the annexation in 1925.
Statements like this just make the author look foolish and call everything else they have written into question.

Lol, didn't even notice that one. Good eye!

I believe Palau is independent now with an agreement for defense from the US. However to lazy to look it up.

Palau (IPA: [pɑˈlaʊ], [pəˈlaʊ]), officially the Republic of Palau (Palauan: Beluu er a Belau), is an island nation in the Pacific Ocean, some 500 miles (800 km) east of the Philippines and 2000 miles (3200 km) south of Tokyo. Having emerged from United Nations trusteeship (administered by the United States) in 1994, it is one of the world's youngest and smallest nations. It is sometimes referred to in English under its native name Belau.

and under history:

Eventually, in 1979, Palauans voted against joining the Federated States of Micronesia based on language and cultural differences. After a long period of transition, including the violent deaths of two presidents (Haruo Remeliik in 1985 and Lazarus Salii in 1988), Palau voted to freely associate with the United States in 1994 while opting to retain independence under the Compact of Free Association.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau

Lol, you should know all about PC living in Hawaii. I could go on about my time over their and discussing politics but the day is not long enough.

LOL... remember, it may not look it, but each Island is different. how you discuss politics in say... Oahu is alot different than discussing politics in the Big Island. ;)

LOL... remember, it may not look it, but each Island is different. how you discuss politics in say... Oahu is alot different than discussing politics in the Big Island. ;)

I absolutely agree. Thought I was going to get killed on Oahu once for maybe overstepping my bounds in a political discussion. I was right but that didn't matter.

As far as the big Island I am right in the middle of building a home there at the moment. I love that place and the mix of people there is better.

and under history:

Eventually, in 1979, Palauans voted against joining the Federated States of Micronesia based on language and cultural differences. After a long period of transition, including the violent deaths of two presidents (Haruo Remeliik in 1985 and Lazarus Salii in 1988), Palau voted to freely associate with the United States in 1994 while opting to retain independence under the Compact of Free Association.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau


Ahh yes my memory hasn't gone to hell just yet. Funny how one can remember obscure facts but not things one should know.

Ahh yes my memory hasn't gone to hell just yet. Funny how one can remember obscure facts but not things one should know.

I agree entirely. LOL!!

But the article said it was purchased and is now part of America Samoa. Legally, the island is American soil as American Samoa is a territory. God I hate property disputes. They can be so messy. This will be interesting to watch though.

If you knowingly paid money for a stolen car, does that mean it's yours legally? I don't think so.

If you knowingly paid money for a stolen car, does that mean it's yours legally? I don't think so.

If you pay money to the legal owner then it isn't stolen now is it?

I absolutely agree. Thought I was going to get killed on Oahu once for maybe overstepping my bounds in a political discussion. I was right but that didn't matter.

As far as the big Island I am right in the middle of building a home there at the moment. I love that place and the mix of people there is better.

... actually the Big Island is more politically motivated than Oahu. When my brother got married to his Fiancee, they had to hold 'two' wedding parties. one on the Big Island that was attended by family and political friends...

and one on Oahu (much smaller) with all their friends that they couldn't invite due to political reasons. :p

If you pay money to the legal owner then it isn't stolen now is it?

The legal owner was never paid.

Let me put it in an analogy you can understand. I waltz into your house. Declare that I've "discovered" it. Either you don't know I've made that claim, or I shut you up with superior firepower. Then I sell it to someone else.

That's what happened.

Just a point here but the Marshall Islands and the Federated States of Micronesia are independent but under US protection. As for Palau, I believe the same for them as well. I will have to check on that.

They are now, yes. I was talking about history. The FSM, the Marshall Islands and Palau have all officially become sovereign nations (and full members of the UN).

The legal owner was never paid.

Let me put it in an analogy you can understand. I waltz into your house. Declare that I've "discovered" it. Either you don't know I've made that claim, or I shut you up with superior firepower. Then I sell it to someone else.

That's what happened.

I didn't read the article completely because it was more then I cared to read. I assumed those people that legally owned it were paid. I emphasize legal owners.

As far as the "analogy I can understand." You just described the discovery by the Europeans of most of the new world. Might makes right in this world for the most part on international levels. Sad fact of life but that's just how it is. We can jaw back and forth all day about who should legally own whatever but in the end it will be decided with muscle.

They are now, yes. I was talking about history. The FSM, the Marshall Islands and Palau have all officially become sovereign nations (and full members of the UN).

I figured. I was just pointing things out is all :)

We can jaw back and forth all day about who should legally own whatever but in the end it will be decided with muscle.

but why should we allow it to be?

but why should we allow it to be?

We can discuss it all day but that won't change anything. It is upon the ones making the claim to legally/politically resolve it or resolve it through force. Neither one seems to be an option that they can win. So their claim will never be resolved unless the US finds it in their interest to give it to them. Right now the US is the legal owner through it American Samoa territory. It is interesting to debate here but reality is that they won't go anywhere with it.

Any bets on what the US will say?

(link (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4245733a11.html))

Give it to them.

I didn't read the article completely because it was more then I cared to read. I assumed those people that legally owned it were paid. I emphasize legal owners.

If by legal owners, you mean the original inhabitants. No. Some mook just set up shop there and said it was his.


As far as the "analogy I can understand." You just described the discovery by the Europeans of most of the new world.


You think I don't know that sad fact of colonialism?


Might makes right in this world for the most part on international levels. Sad fact of life but that's just how it is. We can jaw back and forth all day about who should legally own whatever but in the end it will be decided with muscle.

You're talking to a cynic here. I know the difference between law and reality. Doesn't make things legal, but it's still reality. Just makes it another hypocritical aspect of humanity.

May I paraphrase the US response?

Dear Tokelau,

Lulz, no.

Love, USA

Any bets on what the US will say?

(link (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4245733a11.html))

They can always declare war on the USA, lol.

May I paraphrase the US response?

Dear Tokelau,

Lulz, no.

Love, USA

We will put that message in a bottle and hopefully it will was up on Tokelau's shores.

We can discuss it all day but that won't change anything. It is upon the ones making the claim to legally/politically resolve it or resolve it through force. Neither one seems to be an option that they can win. So their claim will never be resolved unless the US finds it in their interest to give it to them. Right now the US is the legal owner through it American Samoa territory. It is interesting to debate here but reality is that they won't go anywhere with it.

well, i can think of at least one way to make it in the imperialist power's interests to right its wrongs...

well, i can think of at least one way to make it in the imperialist power's interests to right its wrongs...

Please tell.....

Please tell.....

popular opinion and appeal to allegedly deeply held principles. its just crazy enough to work.

Eh. We have as much claim to it as Tokelau does, seeing as it has no historic natives. Not that we need it, but it might be of some value down the road. I say we keep it. Could even be helpful for research or missile defense purposes, like Kwajalein.

Awww, no fun:


Tokelau leader denies designs on Swain’s

Tokelau’s Ulu, or leader, does not want to pursue any claim to Swain’s Island, or Olohega, for the time being, if the referendum currently underway makes his nation self-governing.

Tokelau’s traditional claim to the island, which is under the control of American Samoa, is mentioned in the preamble to Tokelau’s draft constitution.

But Ulu Kurea Nasau says there are other more pressing needs:

“I would like to concentrate on developing Tokelau more as a country. I have always believed there are more priorities than focusing on Olohega.”

(link (http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=35945))

If I were a New Zealander(or whatever), I'd ask the U.S to send a 5 megaton hydrogen bomb to one of the islands.

If I were a New Zealander(or whatever), I'd ask the U.S to send a 5 megaton hydrogen bomb to one of the islands.

Fortunately, policy is still made by relatively sane people, so you can just go and mumble quietly to yourself in a corner.

I'd be curious to hear how many Americans actually know that the US was a colonial power in the good ole' basic imperialist sense in the Pacific, mainly in the 1880s and 1890s, then after the World Wars. The partitioning of Samoa -in a decision between the US, the UK and Germany, in which the Samoans themselves had no say- was reminiscent of a miniature "scramble for Africa".

The US took over Hawai'i, eastern Samoa (+ Olohega), Guam, the northern Marianas, what is now the FSM, the Marshall Islands and Palau.

Good for us.

If I were a New Zealander(or whatever), I'd ask the U.S to send a 5 megaton hydrogen bomb to one of the islands.

Dear President Bush,

Could you please send a five megaton hydrogen bomb to one of the islands,

Yours sincerely,

A New Zealander

Wow - surprising that the UN didnt raise an objection to the annexation in 1925.

Errr, the UN did not exist in 1925, and the League of Nations were a bunch of incompetents who did not give a hoot about some random Pacific Island, and with the United States not even being a member, I can see why.

Anyways, my personal opinion on the matter is the Americans should give back Tokelau its island, and it is time for me to lobby Wellington to convince Tokelau that voting for self governance is going to result in nationhood. I would like us to keep our colonies. At least we are one up on the Brits, we still have halfway decent colonies.

May I paraphrase the US response?

Dear Tokelau,

Lulz, no.

Love, USA

LMFAO. I almost fell out my chair!

Awww, no fun:



(link (http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=35945))

See this is where their leader has no visions or creativity. He should declare war on the US once they gain independence. Launch some sort of attack on American Somoa. The US responds with dropping maybe 4 bombs because that should cover their territory. The US then "rebuilds" their shitty little islands. Installs a "democracy" and then pats them on the head. Simple..... right?

I would like us to keep our colonies.

Fortunately for you, your self-governing territories (the Cook Islands and Niue) strenuously oppose any NZ suggestion that they might want to become fully independent.

They get NZ funds and material aid, and NZ citizenship. They prefer that to sovereignty. And everyone's happy.


At least we are one up on the Brits, we still have halfway decent colonies.

The UK still has Pitcairn. :p

A little off topic, but nevertheless relevant. I heard on the news this evening that Tokelau rejected self government by 16 votes

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1318241/1415741

If I were a New Zealander(or whatever), I'd ask the U.S to send a 5 megaton hydrogen bomb to one of the islands.
Yes, that's because you're stupid.

As to this - meh, if they've rejected it, then extra meh.

A little off topic, but nevertheless relevant. I heard on the news this evening that Tokelau rejected self government by 16 votes

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1318241/1415741

Actually it really is not off topic and thank you. I love this line:

"Tokelau is not ready yet for self government. There are a lot of things to prepare for," says Teaku Petaia, a New Zealand Tokelauan.


The United Nations felt otherwise and has been pushing the New Zealand colony to go it alone.

The UN pushing NZ to let it go when Tokelauan themseves do not want to be independent at this time.

The UN pushing NZ to let it go when Tokelauan themseves do not want to be independent at this time.

That isn't new, unfortunately. The UN's view is simply that there should be no colonies.

The media were almost unanimously predicting that Tokelau would vote in favour. They were treating it as a foregone conclusion, apparently neglecting the fact that it was up to the Tokelauan voters... Anyway, New Zealand has officially accepted the outcome (http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=36014).

That isn't new, unfortunately. The UN's view is simply that there should be no colonies.

The media were almost unanimously predicting that Tokelau would vote in favour. They were treating it as a foregone conclusion, apparently neglecting the fact that it was up to the Tokelauan voters... Anyway, New Zealand has officially accepted the outcome (http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=36014).

I hate the press. Never assume something is going to pass. Hell...never assume someone is going to win either.

Tokelau leader seeks third self-determination vote

The leader of the largest single overseas Tokelauan community has called for a third referendum to be held on self-determination.

[...] The president of the Tokelauan community in the Hutt Valley in New Zealand, Henry Joseph, has told Radio Australia there should be another vote within two years.

He says next time the rules should be changed so a simple majority can win.

"I'm not happy because after the first one when the leaders came to visit our community here at Hutt Valley we supported their move to make another step forward. And from the feedback they gave us, there seems to be more people supporting the new referendum."


If you can't win, change the rules, eh?

If you can't win, change the rules, eh?

Apparently. Seems to be the way most politics are done. :D

If you can't win, change the rules, eh?

well, since there seems to consistently be more than 60% in favor of decolonization, and the difference between winning and losing this time was just 16 votes, a slight rule change wouldn't seem to be completely off the wall. personally, i'd wonder just how strongly the objectors objected - that's an awfully narrow margin to hold back an overwhelmingly approved idea without some damn good reasoning.

though i bet they could convince enough people to top 66% anyway before the next chance to take up the issue anyway.