NationStates Jolt Archive

Record poll win for Swiss right
The right-wing Swiss People's Party has won the most votes recorded in a Swiss general election, despite a campaign marred by accusations of racism.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44099000/jpg/_44099666_swissposter2_afp203b.jpgThe SVP, already the country's largest party, won 29% of the vote and gained seven seats on the National Council.

"We have reached the highest score ever since this electoral system began," said party leader Ueli Maurer.

The left-of-centre Social Democrats were the biggest losers of Sunday's polls, losing nine seats.

A 4% drop on its showing in 2003 elections, Switzerland's second largest party now has 43 seats on the 200-strong National Council compared to the SVP's 62.

"We have reached the highest score since this electoral system began."
Ueli Maurer
President, Swiss People's Party

The Greens gained six seats, boosting their representation in the House to 20, while also winning their first position in the 46-member senate, reflecting growing concerns for the environment among Switzerland's electorate.

The Christian Democratic People's Party also made gains of three seats, while the Radicals lost five.

Despite its success, the SVP - led by Chistoph Blocher - lacks an overall majority and will have to govern in a coalition with other parties.

The leaders of the four main parties said they were committed to retaining the system of consensus politics, with cabinet positions shared between the SVP, the Social Democrats, the Radicals and the Christian Democrats.

The four parties have held more than 75% of parliamentary seats for decades.

'Racist' campaign

The SVP's campaign caused deep unease among the large immigrant community, reports the BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Bern.

One single issue dominated the campaign - foreigners.

Twenty percent of Switzerland's population is foreign and the now notorious poster from the SVP, in which three white sheep kick a black sheep out of Switzerland, was widely regarded as racist.


Four political parties have shared power in Switzerland since 1959
But the party insisted the poster was simply an illustration of its campaign to have foreigners who commit crimes deported.

That campaign does seem to have struck a chord with voters.

The SVP will see its big share of the vote as a mandate to push forward policies like the deportation of foreign criminals, and a ban on building minarets, our correspondent says.

It also wants to keep Switzerland out of the European Union.

Opponents fear growing divisions in Swiss society and damage to Switzerland's reputation for consensus and tolerance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7054932.stm
....I told you so.

It's obviously clear, by this record breaking win for the SVP, that the SVP does represent the interests of a large enough Swiss to make it the (by far) dominant party and even though tools in the U.N. and in the Left wing parties in Switzerland tried to silence the SVP by branding it with the all to familiar "racist" label, the SVP still dominated, capturing the hearts and minds of many Swiss, young and old.

As to the other parties, it makes me happy to see the Social Democrats failing and shows that the Swiss desire to remain free-market, anti-immigrant, critical of the new multiculturalism from hostile people and out of the EU trumps the Left's goals once again. Remember, the SVP won last election to.

My only other comment is that I'm also happy to see the Green Party rise up as the Social Democrats fall. Switzerland is a very enviornmentally friendly nation and since the SVP lacks a stance on enviornmental issues (indeed my only problem with the SVP), I am more than happy to see the Green party grow.

All in all, an election exactly how I predicated and just the way I wanted it to go.

I'd like to see those anti-SVP people post here now..explaining how if the SVP is such a terrible party, how it broke the record for the most votes even gathered by a political party in Switzerland?;)

29%? So 71% voted against them? DAMN YOU REACTIONARY SWISS BASTARDS!


And since when do you ever hate to say "I told you so"?

The reason that the SVP, which is a terrible party, managed to do better than it has previously is because they ran on a campaign that preyed on a feeling of xenophobia and racism. A feeling that the SVP has attempted to instill in the Swiss populace since their inception.

Popularity for a cause does not mean the cause is valid.

29%? So 71% voted against them? DAMN YOU REACTIONARY SWISS BASTARDS!


And since when do you ever hate to say "I told you so"?
:rolleyes: Obviously you don't understand Swiss politics but it's a very mulit-party system with 'around' the same votes for each of the top four parties for most of Ch's political history. To get such a huge lead is a big deal in the Swiss political system, even more so when it's over such a 'hot topic' like this multiculturalism one..... Also, the SVP now have 62/200 seats where as the next biggest party, the Social Democrats only have 43/600...that's a big deal too.

Don't just make remarks because you think you're smart....but rather make informed statements to show you're smart.

Also, dude, it's an expression. Get out more.:p

Hahahahaha 29 per cent. Such a weak thread.

:rolleyes: Obviously you don't understand Swiss politics but it's a very mulit-party system with 'around' the same votes for each of the top four parties for most of Ch's political history. To get such a huge lead is a big deal in the Swiss political system, even more so when it's over such a 'hot topic' like this multiculturalism one..... Also, the SVP now have 62/200 seats where as the next biggest party, the Social Democrats only have 43/600...that's a big deal too.

Don't just make remarks because you think you're smart....but rather make informed statements to show you're smart.

Also, dude, it's an expression. Get out more.:p

I have a question for you, why the fuck would anyone who is not Swiss give a rat's fuzzy ass about Swiss politics? Seriously, they don't even have 10 million peons total, and if you're trying to imply this is some horrifying march towards Fascist Europe 2.0 I think you're way off the mark.

In short:

1) It's a pissant country no one really cares about.
2) 71% of the population did not vote this "alarming" way.
3) I'd also like to mention roughly 50% of the population is really fucking stupid on any given measurement, and even amongst that gaggle of morons there are some more moronic than others. Could be approaching 29% even.

The reason that the SVP, which is a terrible party, managed to do better than it has previously is because they ran on a campaign that preyed on a feeling of xenophobia and racism. A feeling that the SVP has attempted to instill in the Swiss populace since their inception.

Popularity for a cause does not mean the cause is valid.
Yes, well, thank you for your opinion.

Anyway, I'll get away from your 'feel-good' opinions (and that's all they are) about how the SVP fooled the Swiss into voting for them and on to the facts. Fact is, many Swiss feel the problems with immigrants and multiculturalism enough to vote for the SVP, which led a crusade during this campaign against the problems with immigration and multiculturalism.

"Racism" and "xenophobia", or atleast what you call "racism" and "Xenophobia" just translates, in reality, to Nationalism, isolationism and limiting and regulating immigration. I, along with enough Swiss to break the voting record for any political parties, see these as good things...so thank you for complimenting the SVP.:)

Record poll win for Swiss right
The right-wing Swiss People's Party has won the most votes recorded in a Swiss general election, despite a campaign marred by accusations of racism.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44099000/jpg/_44099666_swissposter2_afp203b.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7054932.stm
....I told you so.

It's obviously clear, by this record breaking win for the SVP, that the SVP does represent the interests of a large enough Swiss to make it the (by far) dominant party and even though tools in the U.N. and in the Left wing parties in Switzerland tried to silence the SVP by branding it with the all to familiar "racist" label, the SVP still dominated, capturing the hearts and minds of many Swiss, young and old.

As to the other parties, it makes me happy to see the Social Democrats failing and shows that the Swiss desire to remain free-market, anti-immigrant, critical of the new multiculturalism from hostile people and out of the EU trumps the Left's goals once again. Remember, the SVP won last election to.

My only other comment is that I'm also happy to see the Green Party rise up as the Social Democrats fall. Switzerland is a very enviornmentally friendly nation and since the SVP lacks a stance on enviornmental issues (indeed my only problem with the SVP), I am more than happy to see the Green party grow.

All in all, an election exactly how I predicated and just the way I wanted it to go.

I'd like to see those anti-SVP people post here now..explaining how if the SVP is such a terrible party, how it broke the record for the most votes even gathered by a political party in Switzerland?;)

...So, what are we doing, celebrating the fact that a bunch of bigots and racist got a few more votes then everyone else?

...And why should we care? Switzerland isn't even that important of a country...

Next time a left wing party wins TWENTY NINE PER CENT of the vote, I assume Atlatian Islands will view it as an example of the populour vote makng the left being righteous as this in no way comes across as someone having a view and looking for evidence to back it up rather than the more rational approach of having evidence and looking for a view to contextualise it.

It's obviously clear, by this record breaking win for the SVP, that the SVP does represent the interests of a large enough Swiss to make it the (by far) dominant party and even though tools in the U.N. and in the Left wing parties in Switzerland tried to silence the SVP by branding it with the all to familiar "racist" label, the SVP still dominated, capturing the hearts and minds of many Swiss, young and old.

Dominating with the 29%... yeah right. I guess that Italy was a communist country from 1948 to 1990, since the PCI gathered about 30% of the polls almost all the time.
Btw, also the Liberal/Radicals criticised the SVP for hate-campaigning. I guess that now that party is a left-winged tool, at least iyo.
Of course, there's nothing racist in a white sheep kicking out a black sheep... is there? :eek:

As to the other parties, it makes me happy to see the Social Democrats failing and shows that the
(insert) 29% of the (/insert)
Swiss desire to remain free-market, anti-immigrant, critical of the new multiculturalism from hostile people and out of the EU trumps the Left's goals once again.
Yadda yadda yadda, EU iz teh kommiez, the m00zlims are coming, they lived swiss and happy ever after, am ende steht der sieg. *nod*

I have a question for you, why the fuck would anyone who is not Swiss give a rat's fuzzy ass about Swiss politics? Seriously, they don't even have 10 million peons total, and if you're trying to imply this is some horrifying march towards Fascist Europe 2.0 I think you're way off the mark.

In short:

1) It's a pissant country no one really cares about.
Oh, sort of like NSG, and 99.9% of its participants. Angry, bitter, moronic to the core, that describes the majority of you. If Schweiz is too 'beneath' your insignificant, paltry little existences, DO NOT COMMENT!

For the rest of the world, it'll remain an important financial centre.

Risottia, I know you suffer from a intolerably low IQ, but try paying attention to what TAI said for once, rather than spouting predictable Eurocommie tripe.

That is all.

Oh, sort of like NSG, and 99.9% of its participants. Angry, bitter, moronic to the core, that describes the majority of you. If Schweiz is too 'beneath' your insignificant, paltry little existences, DO NOT COMMENT!

For the rest of the world, it'll remain an important financial centre.

Risottia, I know you suffer from a intolerably low IQ, but try paying attention to what TAI said for once, rather than spouting predictable Eurocommie tripe.

That is all.

What is that 29% going to shut down the banking industry? No? Then why bring it up?

What is that 29% going to shut down the banking industry? No? Then why bring it up?
It seems you are incredibly stupid, so I will lay it out for you: the country matters to financial interests. You averred it is inconsequential and pissant. In reality, it isn't. Now go sit in the corner where dunces like you belong.

...And why should we care? Switzerland isn't even that important of a country...

Why should I care about Zimbabwe, Burma, Ethiopia, or any other "unimportant" country?

Yes, well, thank you for your opinion.

Anyway, I'll get away from your 'feel-good' opinions (and that's all they are) about how the SVP fooled the Swiss into voting for them and on to the facts. Fact is, many Swiss feel the problems with immigrants and multiculturalism enough to vote for the SVP, which led a crusade during this campaign against the problems with immigration and multiculturalism.

"Racism" and "xenophobia", or atleast what you call "racism" and "Xenophobia" just translates, in reality, to Nationalism, isolationism and limiting and regulating immigration. I, along with enough Swiss to break the voting record for any political parties, see these as good things...so thank you for complimenting the SVP.:)

If the SVP and Blocher are not attempting to create a climate of racism and xenophobia, then the rate of hate crimes should be the same now as it did before Blocher and the SVP came to power. There. Find a reputable source that shows that and I will believe you.

Meanwhile, these are my sources for my claim that Blocher and his people are attempting to promote racism:

Displaying racist propaganda in party headquarters:

In his party's headquarters in a pretty residential suburb of Bern, journalists are now greeted with a mixture of suspicion and a gauche unawareness that what is pinned up on the walls may not best help it dissociate itself from accusations of xenophobia. One party worker smilingly comments on flyers showing a minaret and an old Islamic woman in a burqa with the caption: 'Baaden oder Baghdad?'

'One of our party members came up with that,' says the young man enthusiastically. There is a photocopied sheet pinned next to it that he does not comment on, depicting cartoons of a dozen or so racial stereotypes, including the 'Juden', depicted by a big-nosed Jew.

Or having problems with people solely due to their religious background:

'We have a strong foreign infiltration,' he insists. 'We have a lot of immigrants with an Islamic background and we feel that is going to change our society dramatically. And yes... we have problems with immigrants with an Islamic background. We have them at school. We have them in the streets. We have them also, unfortunately, when it comes to crime.'

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2190734,00.html

Or his campaign to legalise hate speech:

"Article 216 bis [of the Swiss penal code] gives me a real headache," the justice minister told the media, referring to Swiss anti-racism legislation adopted in 1994 to prevent revisionist views about the Holocaust....Blocher added that the justice ministry would be "examining what it could do to prevent this situation from re-occurring", and that it was up to parliament and the government to decide on any possible changes to the law.

Link. (http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/Blocher_s_remarks_cause_a_storm_in_Switzerland.html?siteSect=105&sid=7131256&cKey=1160060771000&ty=st)

But don't take my word for it, why don't we ask Doudou Diène, the United Nations special rapporteur on racism:

In his speech to the council on Tuesday, Diène deplored what he called the weak political and legal aspects of Switzerland's anti-racism policies.

"This is particularly noticeable regarding the tendency to criminalise foreigners, immigrants and asylum-seekers, and the treatment of immigration and asylum purely from a security point of view," he noted.

He criticised "the high number of acts of racist and xenophobic violence by the police against certain groups", as well as the impunity that the police enjoy, according to their victims.

link (http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/UN_racism_envoy_points_finger_at_Switzerland.html?siteSect=105&sid=7079485&cKey=1189772922000&ty=st)

I think I will continue to consider the SVP's attempts to create a xenophobic climate as factual, rather than merely my opinion.

By the way, if you wish to claim that the 29% of the Swiss population voted for the SVP because of their anti-immigrant platform, please provide a source that shows that a similar percentage supports that particular policy. For example, I do not support the gun control policy of the party I susally vote for, so it would be ignorant to claim that everyone who supports this party supports their stance on gun control.

"Five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock"

Anytime lefties anywhere get their asses handed to them, it's a good thing and a cause for celebration. I'm glad to see Switzerland resist the EU and the wave of appeasement that seems to be sweeping most of Europe.

By the way, if you wish to claim that the 29% of the Swiss population voted for the SVP because of their anti-immigrant platform, please provide a source that shows that a similar percentage supports that particular policy. For example, I do not support the gun control policy of the party I susally vote for, so it would be ignorant to claim that everyone who supports this party supports their stance on gun control.

While I agree with the rest of your points, it's my understanding (from what my friends in Genève tell me) that the SVP is a lot like M. Le Pen's FN in France.

While I agree with the rest of your points, it's my understanding (from what my friends in Genève tell me) that the SVP is a lot like M. Le Pen's FN in France.
Really? Here I thought it was more like the good ole NSDAP.

:rolleyes:

It seems you are incredibly stupid, so I will lay it out for you: the country matters to financial interests. You averred it is inconsequential and pissant. In reality, it isn't. Now go sit in the corner where dunces like you belong.

Oh my, you are feisty! So I'll ask again, is this 29% and their political movement going to change the banking industry, yes or no please. Now, extrapolate if you would, does this 29% "victory" mean anything to anyone who is not Swiss?

Oh my, you are feisty! So I'll ask again, is this 29% and their political movement going to change the banking industry, yes or no please. Now, extrapolate if you would, does this 29% "victory" mean anything to anyone who is not Swiss?
Let's see what was claimed:

1. You claimed Switzerland is a pissant country no one cares about.
2. I claimed nothing, but questioned your claim.
3. You bring in some irrelevant point about 29% changing the banking industry, which I NEVER asserted (incidentally, political environments do tend to influence how capital and finance moves, so the elections will be of interest to these industries.)
4. My point was still that your claim is incorrect.

Easier now?

I'd like to see those anti-SVP people post here now..explaining how if the SVP is such a terrible party, how it broke the record for the most votes even gathered by a political party in Switzerland?;)

What's sad is that you actually think this is a convincing argument in favor of their views.

Let's see what was claimed:

1. You claimed Switzerland is a pissant country no one cares about.
2. I claimed nothing, but questioned your claim.
3. You bring in some irrelevant point about 29% changing the banking industry, which I NEVER asserted.
4. My point was still that your claim is incorrect.

Easier now?

1) That's true, even you don't care about it, you "care" about their business, not the country. :p
2) You never answered me.
3) You implied it.
4) No it's not.

1) That's true, even you don't care about it, you "care" about their business, not the country. :p
The EU also cares about Switzerland. Immensely. For a variety of reasons (one of which being it is drawing investment away from the EU to itself.) As the political environment of the country is important to both finance and capital, the elections will be of interest to both, and the EU. TAI had entirely separate reasons for posting the thread though, but as I have (now) demonstrated Switzerland is neither insignificant nor are the elections inconsequential to the world-at-large. Now I have claimed that the elections matter to these industries, before I had made no such explicit claim, nor even implicit.

2) You never answered me.
Because I had no obligation to. I never made a claim.

3) You implied it.
I did? How?

4) No it's not.
It wasn't? Then prove otherwise.

Risottia, I know you suffer from a intolerably low IQ, but try paying attention to what TAI said for once, rather than spouting predictable Eurocommie tripe.

That is all.

Oh. It's you. I had half an idea of replying to that insulting post, but I doubt that you have the wit to understand.

Btw, if you think that 99.9% of the people on NSG here are morons, why don't you go somewhere else? Somehow, I can't see you on the mission of bettering our IQ with your example.

Really? Here I thought it was more like the good ole NSDAP.

:rolleyes:

What I was referring to was the fact that the SVP (or UDC as I know it better, Union Démocratique du Centre, but I'll continue to use it's name in allemand), like the FN, have one real issue, thus the likelihood of people voting for them for anything other than their stance on immigration is pretty slim.

The EU also cares about Switzerland. Immensely. For a variety of reasons (one of which being it is drawing investment away from the EU to itself.) As the political environment of the country is important to both finance and capital, the elections will be of interest to both, and the EU. TAI had entirely separate reasons for posting the thread though, but as I have (now) demonstrated Switzerland is neither insignificant nor are the elections inconsequential to the world-at-large. Now I have claimed that the elections matter to these industries, before I had made no such explicit claim, nor even implicit.


Because I had no obligation to. I never made a claim.


I did? How?


It wasn't? Then prove otherwise.

You know that brings up the interesting point of who really gives a damn about the EU. A pseudo-super state without the balls to do anything. It's like the UN only weaker and more pathetic. Brilliant job of policing banana curvature though!

The EU also cares about Switzerland. Immensely. For a variety of reasons (one of which being it is drawing investment away from the EU to itself.) As the political environment of the country is important to both finance and capital, the elections will be of interest to both, and the EU. TAI had entirely separate reasons for posting the thread though, but as I have (now) demonstrated Switzerland is neither insignificant nor are the elections inconsequential to the world-at-large. Now I have claimed that the elections matter to these industries, before I had made no such explicit claim, nor even implicit.

I don't think the election of the SVP would greatly affect the nature of the Swiss economy and its reliance on international trade. The SVP can use the spectre of darkies to scare people into voting for them, but they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by applying the same isolationist policies to their economy.

EDIT: What I was referring to was the fact that the SVP (or UDC as I know it better, Union Démocratique du Centre, but I'll continue to use it's name in allemand), like the FN, have one real issue, thus the likelihood of people voting for them for anything other than their stance on immigration is pretty slim.

Oh, that's what you meant. You are probably correct, but I would still like to look at the numbers.

Brilliant job of policing banana curvature though!

That is a myth by the way.

That is a myth by the way.

Oh I know, it was just funny. :D

Oh. It's you. I had half an idea of replying to that insulting post, but I doubt that you have the wit to understand.
Rants tend to pass me by.

Btw, if you think that 99.9% of the people on NSG here are morons, why don't you go somewhere else? Somehow, I can't see you on the mission of bettering our IQ with your example.
Salvation. I'd be a bad Christian if I did not offer a chance of salvation to that 0.1%.

I don't think the election of the SVP would greatly affect the nature of the Swiss economy and its reliance on international trade.
It won't bring about any major changes, much to the (dis)satisfaction of some.

You know that brings up the interesting point of who really gives a damn about the EU. A pseudo-super state without the balls to do anything. It's like the UN only weaker and more pathetic. Brilliant job of policing banana curvature though!
It is all those things, but it is important, unfortunately.

Rants tend to pass me by.


Salvation. I'd be a bad Christian if I did not offer a chance of salvation to that 0.1%.

One could begin to suspect that a great many things pass you by.


It is all those things, but it is important, unfortunately.

Oh I rather doubt that. Having read the history and goals of the EU and it's respective powers I've come to think of it as a rather expensive joke that the UK is playing on the French. Adding more and more states and not really giving the EU itself more "federal" power. I'd hate to think of the amount of money wasted on what is in essence a non-binding alliance.

I don't think the election of the SVP would greatly affect the nature of the Swiss economy and its reliance on international trade. The SVP can use the spectre of darkies to scare people into voting for them, but they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by applying the same isolationist policies to their economy.

Right. And starting with Blocher, who is a billionaire, iirc. Economy is all that matters after all: it's no good sitting on the Aletschgletscher, happy of having no darkiez around, when you have no francs to pay the heating bill!

And, btw, swiss economy cannot live without the EU. What countries do all their exports travel through? France, Italy, Germany, Austria. How many francs do Switzerland get from the road tolls on EU lorries passing through Switzerland?

...money...

Is it just me or does AI and IB's wankfests at any perceived victory over The Left™ share that same overexcited tone that used from come Kimchi and his 3b1l /\/\05l3/\/\s™ posts?

Seriously.

It's like these two are hoping the SVP victory will set off a Domino Theory of European victories over The Left™ that will also include a few Pinochet Chile-style culling of The Left™.

Anytime lefties anywhere get their asses handed to them, it's a good thing and a cause for celebration. I'm glad to see Switzerland resist the EU and the wave of appeasement that seems to be sweeping most of Europe.

Bwahahaha! I'd be worried mind you if Switzerland was a massive country with a massive standing army. As it is though *shrug* perhaps the next time the Swiss will realise how they have been played for fools, and make amends.

Brilliant job of policing banana curvature though!

Which is actually not true at all. There is no EU directive on the curvature of bananas.

29%? So 71% voted against them? DAMN YOU REACTIONARY SWISS BASTARDS!


And since when do you ever hate to say "I told you so"?
It would be interesting to find out what percentage of that 29% that actually voted for the SVP because of its' anti-immigrant slant?

The very fact that 71% of the people voted against the SVP is extremely significant.

Which is actually not true at all. There is no EU directive on the curvature of bananas.

Oh I know, it was just funny. I considered the Barmaid's directive (which is also fiction). It is absolutely hilarious that people can think them serious though.

Oh I know, it was just funny. I considered the Barmaid's directive (which is also fiction). It is absolutely hilarious that people can think them serious though.

The barmaids directive, ohhh please do enlighten me?

Anytime lefties anywhere get their asses handed to them, it's a good thing and a cause for celebration. I'm glad to see Switzerland resist the EU and the wave of appeasement that seems to be sweeping most of Europe.

Where the hell did you get the idea that a capitalist free trade racket was in anyway "left-wing?"

What amuses me is that somehow this is seen as a "victory over the left" because they got the most seats, when frankly, as pointed out, the idea is ludicrus without additional facts.

with 29% of the vote, they don't have anywhere near an effective majority to actually push through their policies. While they may be bigger than any one party, concept of "liberal" and "conservative" are not restricted to a single party per concept, as much as our american political system would like us to think.

Sure, they have a right wing anti immigration policy, but they are in absolutly no position to enforce it. The important question is, what's the policy of the other 71%? Regardless of what THIS party wants, they are in the minority, and if the majority disagrees, they don't have the ability to enforce their position.

I fail to see how this is a victory at all, sure they may outnumber any one party, but, it would seem, that they are still in the minority, with the majority of the swiss parliament in opposition to their views.

Sure, ok, they got more votes than any one party, but THEIR numbers are rather irrelevant in a parliamentary system, we have to look at the total seats held by them AND those that agree with them. And their views are pretty much still in the minority.

So they lack the power to get their positions pushed through to the legislature, and the liberal side of things still seems to have a grip on the majority, allowing them, for the most part, to simply ignore this party.

So how the hell is this a victory again?

So how the hell is this a victory again?
It isn't. Only in the imagination of the people who see what they want to see and disregard the rest.

Which is actually not true at all. There is no EU directive on the curvature of bananas.

Not yet. :p

Props to the SVP. Maybe there's hope for Europe after all.

Whenever someone writes a sloppy, self-indulgent article like this about the imminent demise of The Left and their multiculturalism and cooties and whatnot, I begin to wonder: What exactly do they mean by "The Left"? Is it an organised conspiracy or what? Could any charming right-winger explain to me what they mean by The Left, because my definition seems to be different

One could begin to suspect that a great many things pass you by.
Ignorant rants only.

It's like these two are hoping the SVP victory will set off a Domino Theory of European victories over The Left™ that will also include a few Pinochet Chile-style culling of The Left™.
Better them dead than Red. So yeah.

Hahahahaha 29 per cent. Such a weak thread.
Ignored due to your lack of understanding of Swiss politics.
I have a question for you, why the fuck would anyone who is not Swiss give a rat's fuzzy ass about Swiss politics?
I think it's terrible that you (and most Americans) show this kind of apathy. It's fucking pathetic. Oh, so Switzerland isn't a superpower so why should anyone care about their politics? Meh, who cares about Germany or England as they're allllll the way over there across the Atlantic...and you know what, fuck the Middle East or Africa, pfeh...they don't affect us. As a matter of fact, who cares what goes on outside our borders!? Yay for ignorance and apathy, down with global/political awareness in our ever more globalized world! That's fucking pathetic, man. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Any, aside from being an international politics major, I happen to have my own personal connections in Switzerland, travel there, have relationships with alot of people there and might end up studying there a bit, depending on how things go. If you must know, I'll also be back over there this Christmas break.

Though in all honesty, your apathy is disgusting and I shouldn't have had to explain myself.

Better them dead than Red. So yeah.

So you believe that the SVP should start herding leftists into concentration camps. Wow. You're really moving the discussion forward.:rolleyes:

Anyways, the SVP's implicitly racist stance has some disquieting implications for religious minorities:

GENEVA (EJP)---The populist and xenophobic right-wing Swiss People’s Party (SVP), which was the biggest winner of general elections on Sunday, is bordering on what can be considered as anti-Semitism, Alfred Donath, president of the Swiss Federation of Jewish communities (FSCI), told European Jewish Press on Monday.

...

Commenting on the results of the vote, Donath told EJP: "They are not anti-Semitic because they care to avoid any outburst but their victory is certainly a kind of encouragement for anti-Semites to express themselves."

http://www.ejpress.org/article/21110

Well, I generally retain my position that through my heritage I have a birthright to return to my Swiss ancestral homeland, should I ever need to, but I think this is not only goofy, but comic.

Dominating with the 29%... yeah right. I guess that Italy was a communist country from 1948 to 1990, since the PCI gathered about 30% of the polls almost all the time.
Btw, also the Liberal/Radicals criticised the SVP for hate-campaigning. I guess that now that party is a left-winged tool, at least iyo.
Of course, there's nothing racist in a white sheep kicking out a black sheep... is there? :eek:
First of all...I have no idea why you're bringing Italy into this. The point is that the Swiss political parties have NEVER been like this, it's a big win for the SVP, every Swiss knows this and it's big big news in Switzerland...I don't see why you don't see this....Yes, dominating with the 29% as no matter has ever gotten this much of a lead over it's other parties. It's all relative...
To the sheep thing. In your "anti-racist" crusade you overlook the problem itself. The anti-immigrant sheep poster is not racist, but a HUGE portion of the immigrant problem in Switzerland, deals with European immigrants from Eastern and South Eastern Europe. WHITE PEOPLE! Ugh, please try to understand the issue a little more next time...Balkan people are White.

Yadda yadda yadda, EU iz teh kommiez, the m00zlims are coming, they lived swiss and happy ever after, am ende steht der sieg. *nod*
Yes...how grown up of you. Disregard the fact that the majority of the Swiss don't want to be in the EU. That's not just an SVP stance at all..... As for the Muslims...well we'll see what happens since the SVP is campaigning against the building of minarets.
What is that 29% going to shut down the banking industry? No? Then why bring it up?
Ignorant much? The SVP is a capitalist party. It's FOR the banks and has a very strong member base in Zürich, the banking city.... I don't see how this post makes any sense?
Why should I care about Zimbabwe, Burma, Ethiopia, or any other "unimportant" country?
Exactly....:rolleyes:

So you believe that the SVP should start herding leftists into concentration camps. Wow. You're really moving the discussion forward.:rolleyes.
Only if you're willing to draw such implications out of what I said facetiously.

Only if you're willing to draw such implications out of what I said facetiously.

Those who talk about being better dead than Red are often the most willing to start herding anyone who is a shade of Red to the gas chambers.

Those who talk about being better dead than Red are often the most willing to start herding anyone who is a shade of Red to the gas chambers.
My, my, so paranoid. :)

"Five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock"
Yes. That's all.:rolleyes:
While I agree with the rest of your points, it's my understanding (from what my friends in Genève tell me) that the SVP is a lot like M. Le Pen's FN in France.
Not really. They are both Nationalist parties, but Switzerland and France have different national needs, wants and traditions, so they have different views. Probably what makes you friend compare them is their strong anti-immigrant stance and their criticism of the new style of importing the worlds problems to France, Switzerland, ect....
I don't think the election of the SVP would greatly affect the nature of the Swiss economy and its reliance on international trade. The SVP can use the spectre of darkies to scare people into voting for them, but they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by applying the same isolationist policies to their economy.
The SVP is a capitalist party. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Like I said before, free-market does not mean free-border....the SVP favors the free exchange of capital, not of labor.
Read up:
"Over the 1990s, the SVP changed its course radically towards a combination of nationalist populism and neo-liberalism, and has greatly increased its voter support, at the expense of both the far-right fringe and the major parties of the centre, gaining of the order of 5% on each. Popular vote more than doubled from 12% in 1991 to 29% in 2007, at the same time resulting in a polarisation on the left, strengthening the Swiss Green Party in particular."

Right. And starting with Blocher, who is a billionaire, iirc. Economy is all that matters after all: it's no good sitting on the Aletschgletscher, happy of having no darkiez around, when you have no francs to pay the heating bill!

And, btw, swiss economy cannot live without the EU. What countries do all their exports travel through? France, Italy, Germany, Austria. How many francs do Switzerland get from the road tolls on EU lorries passing through Switzerland?

...money...
I think I agree with you here if you're saying that the SVP is a very capitalist party and is in favor of international free-trade and making money....because they are. They are in no way isolationist when it comes to international banking or the exchange of capital across borders, it's just that they are against the exchange of labor (people) across borders.

If that was what you were saying, sorry if I'm wrong.
Bwahahaha! I'd be worried mind you if Switzerland was a massive country with a massive standing army. As it is though *shrug* perhaps the next time the Swiss will realise how they have been played for fools, and make amends.
Ah, yes..like last time when the SVP won the election and then the Swiss "realized how they were played for fools" and then voted this time to give the SVP a record breaking vote count....oh, wait....
The very fact that 71% of the people voted against the SVP is extremely significant.
I'd look at it this way. It's not that they were voting AGAINST the SVP. It wasn't like, "quick, vote anybody but SVP", but rather they voted for other things they felt was crucial. Like, many people voted for the social democrats because they want a better welfare state, or the reforming of the Swiss 'elitist' school system. Or, many people voted for the Greens because enviornmentalism is very important in Switzerland, and the SVP doesn't really have a stance on that. It's not like the Republican Democrat party system where you vote for one to vote against the other, or something...but it's a multiparty system. It's not that, I hate the SVP so I'm gonna vote for someone else, but rather, I LIKE the Federal Democrats stance on free-market, so I'll vote for them.....it just works differently.
It isn't. Only in the imagination of the people who see what they want to see and disregard the rest.
No. Every Swiss admits that it is a victory for the SVP and even the Media states so. It's the biggest political victory since 1919 in CH.
Props to the SVP. Maybe there's hope for Europe after all.
Switzerland is not part of the EU, it's got a much different political climate.

The SVP is a capitalist party. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Like I said before, free-market does not mean free-border....the SVP favors the free exchange of capital, not of labor.
Read up:
"Over the 1990s, the SVP changed its course radically towards a combination of nationalist populism and neo-liberalism, and has greatly increased its voter support, at the expense of both the far-right fringe and the major parties of the centre, gaining of the order of 5% on each. Popular vote more than doubled from 12% in 1991 to 29% in 2007, at the same time resulting in a polarisation on the left, strengthening the Swiss Green Party in particular."

I never said that the SVP was anything other than capitalist. And it will do what is required to maintain or strengthen the Swiss economy, including opening the borders to the required labour forces.

For Mr Lutz of the University of Berne, that is the important fact behind all the rhetoric about immigration to Switzerland.

"One thing we all agree on is that Switzerland needs foreigners," he explains.

"If we were to throw all the foreigners out our economy would collapse from one day to the next. Everyone knows that, even the People's Party knows that."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7050498.stm

Now, you didn't address my previous points (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13155597&postcount=15)concerning the climate of racism that the SVP is trying to inspire, or the percentage of SVP supporters that actually support the immigration policy.

I have some RL that I have to get back to. I'll check back on me being correct about the Swiss Elections later.

Bwahahaha! I'd be worried mind you if Switzerland was a massive country with a massive standing army. As it is though *shrug* perhaps the next time the Swiss will realise how they have been played for fools, and make amends.


Hey, every little bit helps. Besides how can you not love a nation devoted to banking secrecy, hot blonde girls and amazing landscapes? Not to mention cuckoo clocks, which never fail to amuse me.

Better them dead than Red. So yeah.

So, we're advocating mass murder now, are we?


How very Christian of you.

It seems you are incredibly stupid... Now go sit in the corner where dunces like you belong.

Oh, sort of like NSG, and 99.9% of its participants. Angry, bitter, moronic to the core, that describes the majority of you. ...Risottia, I know you suffer from a intolerably low IQ, but try paying attention to what TAI said for once, rather than spouting predictable Eurocommie tripe.

That is all.


Let me put this into small, easily understandable words for you. If you flame or flamebait again, you're getting an enforced vacation.

Knock it off.

I'd like to see those anti-SVP people post here now..explaining how if the SVP is such a terrible party, how it broke the record for the most votes even gathered by a political party in Switzerland?;)
Huh? You actually think you can measure a party's quality or the quality of its policies by how many votes it gets at an election?

What does that tell us about George Bush? Or Hugo Chavez? Or, if you want, the NSDAP?

Blocher ran a populist campaign, people fell for it. Score minus 1 for democracy.

Also, I like the way how you try and represent this as a landslide for the SVP...http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,512733,00.html

I have some RL that I have to get back to. I'll check back on me being correct about the Swiss Elections later.

Why exactly are you celebrating 29% of the Swiss people being morons as if you were "right" because of it? Did you ever claim that 29% of the Swiss people are morons?

But you ARE aware that green is more or less red with more emphasis on ecology, aren't you, TAI? That's were the lost seats of the SP went to, we just voted for another left party.

Now, as for why the SVP is voted, all people I know who gave a few votes to the SVP just wanted to stay out of the EU, as well as some more spine when dealing with it (Swiss politics has an awful tendency to do what the EU wants even when we're not in it... thus adopting disadvantages without even having a say about it).

Or, as Ueli Maurer himself (the guy who leads the SVP) asserted "Swiss people want to decrease taxes". Which didn't seem a very big issue this time, but it is SVP policy to demand tax reductions.


"Five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock"

Worst thing is, the cuckoo clock isn't even Swiss...

Huh? You actually think you can measure a party's quality or the quality of its policies by how many votes it gets at an election?
In certain cases, like this one, yeah.

Blocher ran a populist campaign, people fell for it. Score minus 1 for democracy.
People didn't 'fall for it' anymore than they agreed with it.
Also, I like the way how you try and represent this as a landslide for the SVP...http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,512733,00.html
It IS....but that doesn't mean it overrides the system Switzerland has. I never claimed it did that. But it does show the growing support for the SVP, even when uninformed posters like 'Gift-of-God" claimed that the SVP was not growing nor increasing.
But you ARE aware that green is more or less red with more emphasis on ecology, aren't you, TAI? That's were the lost seats of the SP went to, we just voted for another left party.
The deal is this. The SVP is almost perfect, in my opinion. It just lacks a good enviornmental stance (and we both know how important ecology is in Switzerland)...so, the next best thing is that the Green party advances, for the sake of it's enviornmental politics, and I'll just have to deal with it's position on other issues. But ecology is still it's primary position. This is a major difference from other leftist parties, which is why I favor the greens rising and the Social Democrats falling. It's not just 'another left party', the Green party growing brings more enviornmental politics to the table, which is a good thing.
Now, as for why the SVP is voted, all people I know who gave a few votes to the SVP just wanted to stay out of the EU, as well as some more spine when dealing with it (Swiss politics has an awful tendency to do what the EU wants even when we're not in it... thus adopting disadvantages without even having a say about it).
Well people I know of course agreed with the SVP on these issues but also really approved of the SVP's stance on the farmers and agriculture and also immigration. Though many people did admit that it was a bit extreme, they still support those policies over what the Left wing says about the issues about multiculturalism, immigration and crime...and such.
Or, as Ueli Maurer himself (the guy who leads the SVP) asserted "Swiss people want to decrease taxes". Which didn't seem a very big issue this time, but it is SVP policy to demand tax reductions.
Yes of course many people love this about the SVP.


Worst thing is, the cuckoo clock isn't even Swiss...
From Bavaria, I thought?

In certain cases, like this one, yeah.
And I take it you're the one to decide when a big election win was due to good policies, and when it was due to bad voters, right?

People didn't 'fall for it' anymore than they agreed with it.
People don't agree with populism, because there is nothing to agree with. It's soundbites and ineffectual policies that strike a nerve with an irrational side of voters' emotions.

If the SVP kicked all the criminal foreigners out, would it change a thing? Of course not - there's plenty of Swiss criminals out there, and the more organised ones will just take over whatever racket was controlled by immigrants previously.

It's a policy that costs money and is bound to have collateral damage, and which won't have a measurable effect on the average Swiss' life. But people still vote for it, because it just sounds like something they want to support.

You are supposed to be studying politics, you're supposed to know these things. The less concrete policies you propose, the less concrete promises you make, the more freedom you have once you're in charge.

And I take it you're the one to decide when a big election win was due to good policies, and when it was due to bad voters, right?

"But Neu Leonstein" - asked Heikoku with mock-innocence in his voice - "Isn't that hypocritical of TAI?"

Record poll win for Swiss right
The right-wing Swiss People's Party has won the most votes recorded in a Swiss general election, despite a campaign marred by accusations of racism.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44099000/jpg/_44099666_swissposter2_afp203b.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7054932.stm
....I told you so.

It's obviously clear, by this record breaking win for the SVP, that the SVP does represent the interests of a large enough Swiss to make it the (by far) dominant party and even though tools in the U.N. and in the Left wing parties in Switzerland tried to silence the SVP by branding it with the all to familiar "racist" label, the SVP still dominated, capturing the hearts and minds of many Swiss, young and old.

As to the other parties, it makes me happy to see the Social Democrats failing and shows that the Swiss desire to remain free-market, anti-immigrant, critical of the new multiculturalism from hostile people and out of the EU trumps the Left's goals once again. Remember, the SVP won last election to.

My only other comment is that I'm also happy to see the Green Party rise up as the Social Democrats fall. Switzerland is a very enviornmentally friendly nation and since the SVP lacks a stance on enviornmental issues (indeed my only problem with the SVP), I am more than happy to see the Green party grow.

All in all, an election exactly how I predicated and just the way I wanted it to go.

I'd like to see those anti-SVP people post here now..explaining how if the SVP is such a terrible party, how it broke the record for the most votes even gathered by a political party in Switzerland?;)

How can people not see that this election result is almost as good and great a thing for mankind as the 1932 elections in Germany?

:headbang:

BTW, I love how you say the campaign was marred, not by racism (which it was), but by accusations of racism. Those dirty leftists dare to point out racism when it rears its head!!

I love a good debate. I couldn't bring myself to read past page 3 of this one.

Please, people, for the love of whatever absentee divinity you hold favour with, learn English and learn to not add "-you poopie-head" to the end of every 'argument' you bring to bear against anyone who DARES to disagree with you.

Also please learn to recognize context. If someone says something fallacious, like the SVP is Liberal anti-business nazi scum and yada yada, and then someone else who has no knowledge of the SVP denies the inconsistencies of the first post with contextual logic, then there just isn't any reason for someone else to come in and tell the second poster "you obviously don't know what you're talking about." Because whether it's the SVP or Leonard Cohen's left buttock is irrelevant - that poster was pointing out inconsistencies in someone else's post, and in that regard, they knew exactly what they were talking about. YOU didn't.

I really hate to say it, but shit like this is making me prejudiced. I'm growing to hate anything that is Conservative or Religious, which seem to be mutually inclusive. Hmm.

Reply back more later when I'm not busy.

Reply back more later when I'm not busy.

Well, you could address the two points I brought up earlier:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13155597&postcount=15

Unless, of course, you concede that the SVP is trying to instill a climate of racism and xenophobia, and that you don't know how many of the SVP supporters actually support the SVP immigration policy.

Not really. They are both Nationalist parties, but Switzerland and France have different national needs, wants and traditions, so they have different views. Probably what makes you friend compare them is their strong anti-immigrant stance and their criticism of the new style of importing the worlds problems to France, Switzerland, ect....

Yes, that's basically what they were saying. Of course parts of the platform will be different, but both parties are centered around anti-immigration and Euroskepticism. I'm not all that familiar with the UDC (or SVP if you insist) but I lived for 5 months with an old lady who was a FN supporter, and we discussed politics almost daily (as it's France's second favorite passtime, after complaining) so I'm rather familiar with the FN.

Someone has probably pointed this out before, but I'm not surprised that they've faced accusations of racism and xenophobia. Look at the image in the OP!

The images of burning barricades in Bern and the SVP’s infamous “sheep” election poster ensured that this year, for the first time, there was interest outside the country in the Swiss elections. The reporting sometimes gave the impression that a right-wing populist mass movement was about to take power in Switzerland. But that just shows how little the world knows about this country.

Source (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,512733,00.html)

Oh, TAL.

You try and try, but to no avail.

Someone has probably pointed this out before, but I'm not surprised that they've faced accusations of racism and xenophobia. Look at the image in the OP!

Yes. Let's look at it.

3 white sheep kicking a black sheep off a flag of Switzerland.

The SVP claims that the black sheep was meant to symbolise the criminal element, and only the criminal element. Yet the SVP has consistently focused on crime by non-citizens, a ban on minarets, and other issues that seem to deal more with race and religion. That seems paradoxical. Are they concerned with crime or citizenship?

If they wanted to focus on crime, as their interpretation of their poster indicates, they wouldn't care about the citizenship status of the criminal. Merely the person's guilt or innocence.

Or they could have meant that they want to kick out the black people and the arabs too. If that were true, they wouldn't care about the guilt or innocence of those being deported. They would just kick people out even if they were innocent of a crime.

Well, according to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/08/world/europe/08swiss.html?hp), the SVP has apparently gone with the second option:

As part of its platform, the SVP party has begun a campaign seeking the 100,000 signatures necessary to force a referendum to let judges deport foreigners after they serve prison sentences for serious crimes. The measure also calls for the deportation of the entire family if the convicted criminal is a minor.

I guess it's about kicking black people out of Switzerland.

Yes. Let's look at it.

3 white sheep kicking a black sheep off a flag of Switzerland.

The SVP claims that the black sheep was meant to symbolise the criminal element, and only the criminal element. Yet the SVP has consistently focused on crime by non-citizens, a ban on minarets, and other issues that seem to deal more with race and religion. That seems paradoxical. Are they concerned with crime or citizenship?

If they wanted to focus on crime, as their interpretation of their poster indicates, they wouldn't care about the citizenship status of the criminal. Merely the person's guilt or innocence.

Or they could have meant that they want to kick out the black people and the arabs too. If that were true, they wouldn't care about the guilt or innocence of those being deported. They would just kick people out even if they were innocent of a crime.

Well, according to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/08/world/europe/08swiss.html?hp), the SVP has apparently gone with the second option:



I guess it's about kicking black people out of Switzerland.
I still don't have the time...but this is just too easy so I'll just do it and do the rest later when I'm done with my work.

The "Sicherheit Schaffen" (sheep poster) is not racist for a very, very simple reason everyone keeps overlooking. A HUGE portion of the focus of this anti-immigrant anti-crime agenda of the SVP falls onto Eastern and South Eastern Europeans....WHITE PEOPLE!

The sheep is black because black has always been the color of bad and white the color of good and pure in artistic representation of something for ever....but since a huge problem is with Balkan immigrants, it's not possible for it to be racist since those are White people. You lose.

Also, the New York Times is correct in stating the SVP's policy, you're just wrong in your own personal interpretation.
Notice how it says 'minor'. The SVP beleives that if there are minors comitting crime, the family isn't doing a good job and isn't raising the kid, thus punishes the family for what their minor is doing. This works because it helps to stop broken homes and works to scare would-be bad parents into watching their kids.

Learning is your friend.

This is a dark day for us all. :(

The sheep is black because black has always been the color of bad and white the color of good and pure in artistic representation of something for ever....but since a huge problem is with Balkan immigrants, it's not possible for it to be racist since those are White people. You lose.
Let's see now:

As part of its platform, the SVP party has begun a campaign seeking the 100,000 signatures necessary to force a referendum to let judges deport foreigners after they serve prison sentences for serious crimes. The measure also calls for the deportation of the entire family if the convicted criminal is a minor.

Human rights advocates warn that the initiative is reminiscent of the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft, or kin liability, under which relatives of criminals were held responsible and punished for their crimes.
What punishment will native families receive if their minor is convicted of a crime?

"Reminiscent of the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft)?" Hmmmm.

Let's see now:


What punishment will native families receive if their minor is convicted of a crime?

"Reminiscent of the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft)?" Hmmmm.

This is one of the few cases where Godwin's law doesn't apply. The SVP are quasi-Nazis, and should be dealt with accordingly.

The "Sicherheit Schaffen" (sheep poster) is not racist for a very, very simple reason everyone keeps overlooking. A HUGE portion of the focus of this anti-immigrant anti-crime agenda of the SVP falls onto Eastern and South Eastern Europeans....WHITE PEOPLE!

"They're not racist, just xenophobic" is just about THE lamest excuse in a debate. I don't think many defense lawyers go "he's not a murderer, just a rapist".

You're ten years too early to beat me, TAI.

Notice how it says ‘minor’. The SVP beleives that if there are minors comitting crime, the family isn’t doing a good job and isn’t raising the kid, thus punishes the family for what their minor is doing.
So teenage rebellion is out of the question in the SVP’s Switzerland?

As is, presumably, independent though of parent(s) and child. The idea of punishing one individual for the crimes of another individual went out of fashion when they banned witchcraft.

Maybe the SVP would like to explain how a parent can have 100% behavioural control over a child at all times?
This works because it helps to stop broken homes
By deporting families, as opposed to actually solving the problem(s).

and works to scare would-be bad parents into watching their kids.
An impossible situation (see above) that will result in even more stress on single-parent or low income families.

And all this ignores your “it’s not racist if it’s white people” spiel.

Let's see now:


What punishment will native families receive if their minor is convicted of a crime?

"Reminiscent of the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft)?" Hmmmm.
Yes...way to totally dodge everything I said about them being Europeans. I know, I know..it's much harder to criticize them being saying "The SVP don't care about Black people" or something equally stupid sounds much better to the left...

Anyway, I'll take this too.

It's not exactly possible to just go and deport citizen families of a minor that commit a crime, in fact it's against the law. That's why the SVP focuses on non-citizen families as 1. They are not Swiss, thus their law-breaking is more extreme because it shows that they are not worthy of the host-country that took them in and 2. because they are not citizens, it's MUCH easier to kick them out than citizen criminals.

This is one of the few cases where Godwin's law doesn't apply. The SVP are quasi-Nazis, and should be dealt with accordingly.
Oh yes, well since your opinion seems to be the final say on everything, I guess that ends the debate there on the SVP because YOU said so.:rolleyes:

"They're not racist, just xenophobic"
You keep trying to paint the SVP using these bad words...but the idea of "xenophobic" used by someone like you honestly does not exactly make the SVP feel guilty. Yes, there is a HUGE difference between wanting limited controlled immigration and deporting the bad elements in your soceity and saying...."Let's kick out the niggers". If you don't see it, not my problem.
So teenage rebellion is out of the question in the SVP’s Switzerland?
Huh? They have freedom of speech. We are talking about gang problems, drug problems, violence problems, rapings...ect.

Maybe the SVP would like to explain how a parent can have 100% behavioural control over a child at all times?
If the parents raised the kids right, he wouldn't turn into a rapist or a drug dealer or a gang member or another one of those bad elements of the immigrant criminal soceity.
By deporting families, as opposed to actually solving the problem(s).
Why waste time and money on problems of people who are not your citizens. That's what INTERNATIONAL AID is for, and Switzerland works quite hard at it.
An impossible situation (see above) that will result in even more stress on single-parent or low income families.
So? What's worse? "Stress" on some families or class of thugs, rapists, drug dealers and murderers?
And all this ignores your “it’s not racist if it’s white people” spiel.
You only ignored it because I am right. You can't keep claiming "it's racist against black people" if one of the main problems that SVP has with immigrants is against the White ones from the Balkans and such....white people.

So, can anyone here please tell me what the composition of Switzerland's immigrant population is? I know the answer, but I want to see how many people here actually know.

This is one of the few cases where Godwin's law doesn't apply. The SVP are quasi-Nazis, and should be dealt with accordingly.
Replace 'Nazi's with 'Communists' and then respond as to how you would feel about such a phrase.

If the parents raised the kids right, he wouldn't turn into a rapist or a drug dealer or a gang member or another one of those bad elements of the immigrant criminal soceity.

So how one was raised is the sole deciding factor in whether one becomes a criminal or not? Is there any evidence to support this notion?

Huh? They have freedom of speech. We are talking about gang problems, drug problems, violence problems, rapings...ect.
AFAIK, the SP seem to be pushing for deportation not just for serious crimes. Many kids who have been brought up in stable households, who are taught well, etc., go on to rebel against their well-meaning parents and commit small crimes.

Is this somehow a failing of their parents?

If the parents raised the kids right, he wouldn’t turn into a rapist or a drug dealer or a gang member or another one of those bad elements of the immigrant criminal soceity.
You seem to be suggesting that parents dictate behaviour; which is nothing short of ludicrous. Do you really think that if parents tell their kids firmly enough not to deal drugs, they will suddenly be unable to deal drugs? I’m thinking right now of all the well-mannered, polite, kind people I’ve bought pot off. Furthermore, we come back to the implication the SVP seem to be giving off, that people will be deported for small crimes, as well as the very small amount of murders, rapes, etc.

As you should know, it’s not just a ‘bad upbringing’ that makes people commit crime. That’s a simplistic, and foolish, attitude to take towards criminality; one that can only lead to idiotic social policies.

Why waste time and money on problems of people who are not your citizens.
As much as you complain TAL, they are citizens of Switzerland.

So? What’s worse? “Stress” on some families or class of thugs, rapists, drug dealers and murderers?
Hyperbolic paranoia, that’s what’s worse.

Firstly, there isn’t a ‘class’ of thugs, rapists, et al, as has been decisively shown on other threads. Pure nonsense. Secondly, the SVP’s policies would create impossible situations for single-parent and low-income families; no matter how much you scoff from your comfy surroundings. If parents were forced to constantly keep an eye on their kids, then those families that couldn’t afford nannies or home-help (presumably most families) would have to sacrifice working hours to ‘look after’ their children. Less hours worked equals less money coming into the family, and less money coming into poorer families can only increase social problems.

You only ignored it because I am right.
I ignored it because other posters seemed to be dealing with your statements adequately. However, if you’d like a fourth person to reiterate why your points are flawed, then by all means...

You can’t keep claiming “it’s racist against black people” if one of the main problems that SVP has with immigrants is against the White ones from the Balkans and such....white people.
I haven’t claimed nothing, young man.

One doesn’t have to take skin pigment into account to be racist. A policy that favours Swiss-born Swiss citizens and discriminates against non-Swiss-born Swiss citizens is still racist.

So how one was raised is the sole deciding factor in whether one becomes a criminal or not? Is there any evidence to support this notion?

No, because "raising them wrong" could be arbitrarily defined to cover anyone who has ever comitted a crime. It's a nebulous and useless phrase.

No, because "raising them wrong" could be arbitrarily defined to cover anyone who has ever comitted a crime. It's a nebulous and useless phrase.

I thought as much.

One doesn’t have to take skin pigment into account to be racist. A policy that favours Swiss-born Swiss citizens and discriminates against non-Swiss-born Swiss citizens is still racist.
Nationalist, not racist, unless there is some Swiss race I am unaware of.

Nationalist, not racist, unless there is some Swiss race I am unaware of.
Tricksy semantics.

One can be said to be racist towards Americans, South Africans, Australians, etc., without there being an American, South African or Australian ‘race’. As I have said before, racism doesn’t just mean skin pigmentation.

One can be said to be racist towards Americans, South Africans, Australians, etc., without there being an American, South African or Australian ‘race’. As I have said before, racism doesn’t just mean skin pigmentation.
What does it mean then?

Nationalist, not racist, unless there is some Swiss race I am unaware of.

It's still discriminatory.

Nationalist, not racist, unless there is some Swiss race I am unaware of.

I think you'll find that in European politics, the terms are interchangable.

The "Sicherheit Schaffen" (sheep poster) is not racist for a very, very simple reason everyone keeps overlooking. A HUGE portion of the focus of this anti-immigrant anti-crime agenda of the SVP falls onto Eastern and South Eastern Europeans....WHITE PEOPLE!

Just because the SVP targets white Muslims too does not mean they don't target blacks. The SVP is capable of being religious bigots to one group and racist bigots to another group, at the same time. This is what's occurring here.

Also, the New York Times is correct in stating the SVP's policy, you're just wrong in your own personal interpretation.

What are you talking about?

Notice how it says 'minor'. The SVP beleives that if there are minors comitting crime, the family isn't doing a good job and isn't raising the kid, thus punishes the family for what their minor is doing. This works because it helps to stop broken homes and works to scare would-be bad parents into watching their kids.

Would families of Swiss citizens be punished as well for the crimes of the minor? If not, my point still stands: The SVP is pushing a bill that would punish people for their citizenship status rather than guilt.

And since you have not responded to the same two points that I have repeatedly brought up, I'm just going to go ahead and assume you agree with me that:

the SVP is deliberately trying to instill a climate of racism and xenophobia into Swiss culture,
and that you have no clue what percentage of the Swiss population supports SVP immigration policy.

What does it mean then?
I would say that ‘racism’ in the way it is now widely used refers to discrimination based solely on someone’s ethnicity, skin colour or nationality.

Nationalist, not racist, unless there is some Swiss race I am unaware of.

Actually, the SVP is both. It is nationalist in terms of the Swiss nation, and racist in that they hate people from different races. Nationalism does not need to equal racism for the SVP to be both.

I think you'll find that in European politics, the terms are interchangable.
In all contexts?

I would say that ‘racism’ in the way it is now widely used refers to discrimination based solely on someone’s ethnicity, skin colour or nationality.
Ethnos, as a term, is roughly the equivalent of nation. The appropriate label would thus seem to be ethnicism, or nationalism.

Ethnos, as a term, is roughly the equivalent of nation. The appropriate label would thus seem to be ethnicism, or nationalism.
Ethnicity is certainly not the equivalent of nationality. Every British citizen shares the same nationality, but there are many different ethnicities in the UK.

The SVP are undoubtedly nationalist, but they also display racist attitudes and policies. I don’t think it’s a misuse of the term to label a policy discriminatory against persons of a certain nationality as ‘racist’. In any case, it is still highly discriminatory.

In all contexts?


Pretty much... nationalism and xenophobia are directed at immigrants that are visibly different. Racism in Europe will always justify itself with reference to the nation in question. The only difference between the two words in the European context seems to be that on a political level, the word "Nationalism" is generally used to describe racism, and where individuals are concerned "Racism" is used to describe them.

Most European nationalist are happy enough to have white people immigrating to their country, they only start making a fuss when the immigrants are visibly different from them.

The thing about most European nations (as opposed to traditional immigrant societies) is that very few of them have a minority of a different race but with the same nationality and national background. So there is generally little to no difference between racism, xenophobia and nationalism.

Ethnicity is certainly not the equivalent of nationality. Every British citizen shares the same nationality, but there are many different ethnicities in the UK.
If you conflate the nation with the State, then yes, certainly. However, a nation is also a form of social and cultural community, which coincides exactly with the notion of ethnos. Wikipedia has an unusually good article on the matter.

The SVP are undoubtedly nationalist, but they also display racist attitudes and policies. I don’t think it’s a misuse of the term to label a policy discriminatory against persons of a certain nationality as ‘racist’. In any case, it is still highly discriminatory.
It absolutely is if race is not involved.

Pretty much... nationalism and xenophobia are directed at immigrants that are visibly different. Racism in Europe will always justify itself with reference to the nation in question. The only difference between the two words in the European context seems to be that on a political level, the word "Nationalism" is generally used to describe racism, and where individuals are concerned "Racism" is used to describe them.

Most European nationalist are happy enough to have white people immigrating to their country, they only start making a fuss when the immigrants are visibly different from them.
Fine, but in the context of Switzerland we are speaking of Eastern Europeans, not Africans, say, or Arabs, predominantly. Unless one holds to a view that there are racial differences within Europeans (and in this case these will not be mainly by national lines - especially not in Switzerland's case), the differences are not substantial. If the xenophobia in this case is driven by, say, religious differences, it isn't racist.

Yes...way to totally dodge everything I said about them being Europeans. I know, I know..it's much harder to criticize them being saying "The SVP don't care about Black people" or something equally stupid sounds much better to the left...
Whoa!! Hold the fort!! I didn't dodge anything. I asked a simple question and it was based on the citizens in question to be non-native, and furthermore, don't go putting words in my mouth, as I didn't even mention the colour of anyones skin. Perhaps when I typed non-native, you automatically assumed I meant "black"? Hmmmm.

Okay, let's try again:

As part of its platform, the SVP party has begun a campaign seeking the 100,000 signatures necessary to force a referendum to let judges deport foreigners after they serve prison sentences for serious crimes. The measure also calls for the deportation of the entire family if the convicted criminal is a minor.

Human rights advocates warn that the initiative is reminiscent of the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft, or kin liability, under which relatives of criminals were held responsible and punished for their crimes.
What punishment will native families receive if their minor is convicted of a crime?

Your reply:

It's not exactly possible to just go and deport citizen families of a minor that commit a crime, in fact it's against the law. That's why the SVP focuses on non-citizen families as 1. They are not Swiss, thus their law-breaking is more extreme because it shows that they are not worthy of the host-country that took them in and 2. because they are not citizens, it's MUCH easier to kick them out than citizen criminals.
So if a native Swiss minor commits a crime, their law breaking is less extreme? So their families will not need to be punishished, because they are worthy?

So the SVP just wants to discriminate against immigrant "citizen" families?

BTW, where did you get that "non-citizen" tag?

Now here's the thing about this party "winning". Yes, they gained more seats than they had before, yes they gained more seats than any other single party. However that doesn't matter at all.

In a multiparty parliamentary system, unless your party has a majority, it doesn't matter how many seats you have. What matters is the size of the consensus on your beliefs. You need a majority to get your platform through to law, and if youri party doesn't have a majority, there must be, at least, a majority consensus on those platform issues.

From my understanding, the party lacks the ability to form a consensus on their platform issues. So this means they are totally unable to bring their platform into law. Likewise they are also totally unable to block or prevent the majority's oppositional views from coming through.

In other words, this party, after the election, is incapable of actually pushing through their issues. They are incapable of forming law in accordance with their platform.

And when after an election a party does not have the power to put forward legislature that they want, we don't call this winning.

Indeed, we have a whole different word for it. We call it losing.

Replace 'Nazi's with 'Communists' and then respond as to how you would feel about such a phrase.

I don't have any problem with it. Power mongering authoritarian Marxist-Leninists should be dealt with the same way as Nazis: ignore them and frustrate their efforts to make anything happen.

If you conflate the nation with the State, then yes, certainly. However, a nation is also a form of social and cultural community, which coincides exactly with the notion of ethnos.
Which ever way you put it, you can’t say that a nation/state/country/nation-state consists of only one ethnicity.

It absolutely is if race is not involved.
Not if, as I’ve already pointed out above, racism is understood to be more than just discriminatory against a particular race. We can quite rationally say that someone is being racist if they are discriminatory against the Irish for being Irish, for example, even though there is no Irish ‘race’.

Labelling the above discrimination as ‘nationalism’ seems slightly off, especially if we can see how someone could be nationalistic without being racist. I agree that many of those who are nationalistic are also racist, but that’s a moot point here.

Not if, as I’ve already pointed out above, racism is understood to be more than just discriminatory against a particular race. We can quite rationally say that someone is being racist if they are discriminatory against the Irish for being Irish, for example, even though there is no Irish ‘race’.
Then the term is imprecise and meaningless.

Labelling the above discrimination as ‘nationalism’ seems slightly off, especially if we can see how someone could be nationalistic without being racist. I agree that many of those who are nationalistic are also racist, but that’s a moot point here.
I agree for one reason only; that the context in which 'nationalism' in used nowadays would render the term confusing. Ethnicism is better.

Then the term is imprecise and meaningless.

I agree for one reason only; that the context in which 'nationalism' in used nowadays would render the term confusing. Ethnicism is better.

Meh. You are quibbling over semantics.

The point is discrimination based on basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, etc, is wrong -- regardless of what you call it.

And, despite your attempt to pull the discussion elsewhere, the views of the SVP do contain flat out racism in the ordinary sense of the term. That they may additionally be xenophobic and have other biases only furthers the point.

Then the term is imprecise and meaningless.
How is it any more meaningless and imprecise then your term ‘ethnicism’?

I agree for one reason only; that the context in which ‘nationalism’ in used nowadays would render the term confusing. Ethnicism is better.
I really don’t see why we’re arguing, or as Cat Tribe says, quibbling over semantics.

We both agree that ‘nationalism’ isn’t a strong enough, nor accurate enough, term to cover discrimination against someone from a certain geographical area. I suggest using a word, ‘racism’, that is already in used to describe discrimination by race, ethnicity and nationality. You suggest using a new word to which all the same objections yourself have raised could be applied.

And let’s call the whole thing off. :p

Whatever term we use to describe the SVP’s irrational discrimination, it’s plainly obvious that they are discriminatory to non Swiss-born Swiss citizens, and can acurately be described as racist, nationalistic and xenophobic.

Yay, a racist* (And I'm using the wide legal definition (http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/cerd.htm) here) campaign paid off and the party got a lot of votes. Luckily, it won't bring them into power. I don't like parties who knowingly and willfully - aye, malignantly - propose legislation which would breach human rights and the rights of the individual, so I hope they crash and burn soon enough.

*And if not directly racist, as I'm still convinced that it was, the at least catering to the racist feelings of the electorate and deliberately playing on racist strings. The sheep is an illustration of foreigners, of "them" as opposed to "us", of how the "different ones" should be kicked out.

Truly, it's sad that they got a single vote.

I hate to burst anyones bubble but a change of government in Switzerland is not going to produce a wave of new reform and legislation.

Firstly about this victory over the left. The SVP did indeed get 29% of the vote, a massive swing of 2.3 % from the last election.

Secondly Direct democracy rules so any law that needs challenging only needs 50,000 signitures then a simple majority in a referendum to overturn the law.

29% is a start but they are going to have to convince more people to actually do much

29% is a start but they are going to have to convince more people to actually do much
They will..the SVP's ideas are getting more and more mainstream.

They will..the SVP's ideas are getting more and more mainstream.

In your dreams and normal people's nightmares.

In your dreams and normal people's nightmares.
Hardly in my dreams.....as they broke the record for most votes recieved....

If that doesn't show anything else it should atleast show how the SVP is becoming more popular and mainstream....Mark my words, the SVP will keep growing and next election it will win even more votes.

I said the same thing before this election and I was correct.

Hardly in my dreams.....as they broke the record for most votes recieved....

If that doesn't show anything else it should atleast show how the SVP is becoming more popular and mainstream....Mark my words, the SVP will keep growing and next election it will win even more votes.

I said the same thing before this election and I was correct.

So?

Even assuming you're right about the next one, in 4 to 8 years listening to these neonazis the Swiss people that voted for them will realize their mistake and they'll go back to the nothingness to which they belong. Campaign based on fear only works for so long, as can be attested by the current political scenery in the US, and this and "cut taxes" are the only two things these non-people from SVP are capable of articulating.

Good will win in the end.

So?

Even assuming you're right about the next one, in 4 to 8 years listening to these neonazis the Swiss people that voted for them will realize their mistake and they'll go back to the nothingness to which they belong. Campaign based on fear only works for so long, as can be attested by the current political scenery in the US, and this and "cut taxes" are the only two things these non-people from SVP are capable of articulating.

Good will win in the end.
Except for that small little fact that that's what they said LAST time the SVP won....(cuz they were already the biggest party BEFORE this election) :rolleyes:

Instaed of "realizing their mistake and going back to nothingness" MORE people voted SVP and it increased it and strengthend it's lead even more.

Actually, the SVP is capable of articulating the problems Switzerland has with EU membership, uncontrolled immigration, uncontrolled multiculturalism, crime...ect ect ect

Actually, the SVP is capable of articulating the problems Switzerland has with EU membership, uncontrolled immigration, uncontrolled multiculturalism, crime...ect ect ect

Actually, the SVP is perfectly willing to punish people for the misdeeds of others and wants to instill fear in the Swiss populace to stay in power.

And quite frankly, you're not one to talk about democracy, as you cheered Pinochet after he couped out a DEMOCRATICALLY elected government. So why would you show any more respect for Switzerland's democracy than you showed for Chile's?

Actually, the SVP is perfectly willing to punish people for the misdeeds of others and wants to instill fear in the Swiss populace to stay in power.

And quite frankly, you're not one to talk about democracy, as you cheered Pinochet after he couped out a DEMOCRATICALLY elected government. So why would you show any more respect for Switzerland's democracy than you showed for Chile's?
That's neither here nor there but I will gladly discuss it in other threads that have something to do with Chile. But I'll leave it at this...the political/socio/economic climate in Chile was MUCH different than Switzerlands.


And...why are you ignoring my response with this:
Except for that small little fact that that's what they said LAST time the SVP won....(cuz they were already the biggest party BEFORE this election)

Instaed of "realizing their mistake and going back to nothingness" MORE people voted SVP and it increased it and strengthend it's lead even more.

That's neither here nor there but I will gladly discuss it in other threads that have something to do with Chile. But I'll leave it at this...the political/socio/economic climate in Chile was MUCH different than Switzerlands.

Instaed of "realizing their mistake and going back to nothingness" MORE people voted SVP and it increased it and strengthend it's lead even more.

1- AKA: "Pinochet couped out someone from the Left". Admit it, you couldn't care less about the system as long as someone from the Right is in power. You don't get to discuss democracy with me until you admit that Pinochet was an evil mass murderer that couped out a rightly elected leader.

2- Same thing happened in the US. Bush got reelected, also on fear. People now realized the blunder they made. And they will vote the Democrats in.

Switzerland will either turn to the right or they'll be a Muslim nation within 50 years.

Anyone who supports Arab/African colonization of Europe is truly a left wing nut. Then where will they get their aid from? Middle Eastern oil wont last forever.

Switzerland will either turn to the right or they'll be a Muslim nation within 50 years.

Switzerland will either turn to the left or they'll be a Nazi nation within 50 years.

There, I can also build strawmen, only mine is closer to the truth.

2- Same thing happened in the US. Bush got reelected, also on fear. People now realized the blunder they made. And they will vote the Democrats in.
And what makes you think this is the case of Schweiz, oh prescient one?

Switzerland will either turn to the left or they'll be a Nazi nation within 50 years.

There, I can also build strawmen, only mine is closer to the truth.

The NSDAP rebuilt Germany from the ashes after WW1. Im glad you agree Switzerland will be destroyed on the current demographic path the Socialists in Switzerland want to send it down and that the Swiss people won't tolerate it much longer.

And what makes you think this is the case of Schweiz, oh prescient one?

Probability, experience and history.

And if it isn't, too bad for them.

Probability, experience and history.

And if it isn't, too bad for them.
You forgot to add 'common sense'. Now what history and experience of Switzerland leads you to believe this?

If that doesn't show anything else it should atleast show how the SVP is becoming more popular and mainstream....Mark my words, the SVP will keep growing and next election it will win even more votes.
Hopefully people will wake up and smell the coffee. The xenophobia and fear - the racism - they play on will hopefully not pay off in the long run.

Actually, the SVP is capable of articulating the problems Switzerland has with EU membership, uncontrolled immigration, uncontrolled multiculturalism, crime...ect ect ect
Yet the solutions they offer to some of these problems are poor, if not downright nasty. And are you honestly saying that Switzerland has a problem with uncontrolled immigration?

Heh... "Uncontrolled multiculturalism". I lol'ed a little :D

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,513776,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,999585,00.jpg

Latest NPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany) election poster. Perhaps they misunderstood their comrades from the SVP.

So much talk over a 2.9% swing?

7,554,661 = swiss population

turnout = 49.2 % - Not even half the swiss people care !

accounting for people who are too young to vote

the SVP convinced less than 100,000 people to change their mind. This is a stunning victory I must say :rolleyes:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,513776,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,999585,00.jpg

Latest NPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany) election poster. Perhaps they misunderstood their comrades from the SVP.

No, unfortunately not...

I'd like to say the reasons WHY the NDP has chosen to copy the SVP....from the NDP.

Those fools.:rolleyes:

I don't want to hear peoples "feel good reactions" before I see why they've chosen that....I can't find a place where they talk about it...

I don't want to hear peoples "feel good reactions" before I see why they've chosen that....I can't find a place where they talk about it...

I think the only people for whom why they chose racist, bigoted, xenophobic trash propaganda is a secret, is you.

Their politics are racist, bigoted, and xenophobic.

So the propaganda appeals to racism, bigotry and xenophobia.

--------
"I don't want to hear peoples "feel good reactions" before I see why they've chosen that....I can't find a place where they talk about it..."

Good for the SVP, I say. As a Nationalist I agree with their views, and I definitely wouldn't mind seeing more victories like this against socialism and the multicults.

"I don't want to hear

There is an "ignore" feature you can use. Otherwise I am not going to shut up simply because you don't want to hear conflicting opinions. Sorry.

....I can't find a place where they talk about it..."

Yeah I can't find a place where they talk about why their racist trash isn't really racist either. I can't find a place where any civilized human would really defend such bigotry. Except right here!

Their politics are racist, bigoted, and xenophobic.
You think it's wrong for a nation to want to preserve their people and their culture from foreigners who come in and destroy all of those things? Who perpetuate crime? I don't think that's wrong at all. Is that racist? No, it's sensible. Bigoted? I call it responsible. Xenophobic? I'd hardly call it an invalid fear when multiculturalism spreads like a disease through your country, undermining countless generations of history and culture. It's happening in America and many other places. I want an American "SVP"!

You think it's wrong for a nation to want to preserve their people and their culture from foreigners who come in and destroy all of those things?

Do you think repeating the same tired, half-assed propaganda is an argument?

Who perpetuate crime?

Do they smell bad? The foreigners? I mean let's see, they're criminals who want to destroy people and culture. What else are they? Sub-human perhaps? Inferior? Barbarian?


I don't think that's wrong at all.

Most racists don't think it's wrong to be racist. No surprise.

Is that racist? No, it's sensible.

See above.

Bigoted? I call it responsible.

See above.

Xenophobic? I'd hardly call it an invalid fear

Yeah most paranoid schizophrenics assure me their fears are totally valid.

when multiculturalism spreads like a disease through your country, undermining countless generations of history and culture. It's happening in America and many other places. I want an American "SVP"!

Fear not, it's already here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party)!

You think it's wrong for a nation to want to preserve their people and their culture from foreigners who come in and destroy all of those things? Who perpetuate crime? I don't think that's wrong at all. Is that racist? No, it's sensible. Bigoted? I call it responsible. Xenophobic? I'd hardly call it an invalid fear when multiculturalism spreads like a disease through your country, undermining countless generations of history and culture. It's happening in America and many other places. I want an American "SVP"!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party

Do you think repeating the same tired, half-assed propaganda is an argument?
Do you think ad hominem is an argument? You're doing nothing but discrediting yourself.

Do they smell bad? The foreigners? I mean let's see, they're criminals who want to destroy people and culture. What else are they? Sub-human perhaps? Inferior? Barbarian?
See above.

Most racists don't think it's wrong to be racist. No surprise.
See above.

See above.

See above.

Yeah most paranoid schizophrenics assure me their fears are totally valid.

Fear not, it's already here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party)!
All of that, see above. The ANP is socialist, for your information. The SVP is not.

Oakondra, I agree with you 100%. Don't back down because they jump to extreme, unfair, trolling, flaming conclusions like Nationalist tendancies = Nazism.:rolleyes:

wow thanks for opening my eyes op ... i always thought switzerland was a mordern decent country i wouldnt mind visiting for a holiday ... but sod that now.... sounds like nazi germany

and lololol at that not being bigotted ..... did the black sheep in the poster have anything to indicate it was a criminal .. no the poster dipicted it being booted out for colour (if you think differently you are lying to your self which is as sad as believing that it depicted it was about criminals)


and as for the minorettes bit ..... well unless the Swiss invented 'Roman Catholism', 'Judism', 'Christianity' etc etc ... id say just banning one type of religious building is pretty biggoted ... though if you can reply saying yes Switzerland invented all the other religions i will retract me saying your a rasict


about the only thing in your op i thought was sensible/maybe a good idea ... was deporting criminals once there sentence is served ... its meant to be a privilage being in another country wether living there or on holiday


and gah its a sad day when someone posts something like this so proudly .... Shame On You and Shame On Switzerland



*edit - gah as op points out below ... im a tad drunk ... edited to change the swede bits to swiss

wow thanks for opening my eyes op ... i always thought switzerland was a mordern decent country i wouldnt mind visiting for a holiday ... but sod that now.... sounds like nazi germany

and lololol at that not being bigotted ..... did the black sheep in the poster have anything to indicate it was a criminal .. no the poster dipicted it being booted out for colour


and as for the minorettes bit ..... well unless the Swed's invented 'Roman Catholism', 'Judism', 'Christianity' etc etc ... id say just banning one type of religious building is pretty biggoted ... though if you can reply saying yes sweden invented all the other religions i will retract me saying your a rasict


about the only thing in your op i thought was sensible/maybe a good idea ... was deporting criminals once there sentence is served ... its meant to be a privilage being in another country wether living there or on holiday


and gah its a sad day when someone posts something like this so proudly .... Shame On You and Shame On Sweden

You've lost all posting rights in my thread and any other thread on this in the future for not knowing the difference between Switzerland and Sweden and even using BOTH nation's names in the same post to refer to the same country:rolleyes:

http://www.eurail.com/images/eurail/content/map_global_pass_countries.jpg

and as for the minorettes bit ..... well unless the Swed's invented 'Roman Catholism', 'Judism', 'Christianity' etc etc ... id say just banning one type of religious building is pretty biggoted ... though if you can reply saying yes sweden invented all the other religions i will retract me saying your a rasict
Minarets are negative for Europe. I don't understand what you're trying to say about Christianity and the like however - to my knowledge Switzerland doesn't have Christian/Judaic states within it. If you mean like the Vatican in Italy or something, then what does that have to do with Switzerland? But I do think that no religion (with myself even being Christian) should have communities like that.

Oakondra, I agree with you 100%. Don't back down because they jump to extreme, unfair, trolling, flaming conclusions like Nationalist tendancies = Nazism.:rolleyes:
Thank you, it's good to know I have some friends here!

Do you think ad hominem is an argument?

Do you think calling your argument propaganda qualifies as an ad hominem?

I didn't realize you WERE your argument.

How interesting.

You're doing nothing but discrediting yourself.

I'm so sure. Help help, my credit is diminishing. How will I maintain my starlet reputation.

See above.


See above.

All of that, see above.

I did; didn't really seem relevant to what I wrote.

The ANP is socialist, for your information. The SVP is not.

Oh please. Everyone's a socialist. I know you far-right nazi types like to sometimes claim to be capitalistic, but that's just lip service. Your policies are always anti-free-market, nationalistic drivel. Maybe you can fool the hard-left simply because you're not "as socialist" as they, but you don't fool me or anyone else with a real education. Kthxbai~!

You've lost all posting rights in my thread and any other thread on this in the future for not knowing the difference between Switzerland and Sweden and even using BOTH nation's names in the same post to refer to the same country:rolleyes:

http://www.eurail.com/images/eurail/content/map_global_pass_countries.jpg

Lol if thats your only reply to a drunk persons points that you coul have ripped apart had they been wrong its got to say alot about the argument lol


(and yay for the weekend and jack daniels :D)

Do you think calling your argument propaganda qualifies as an ad hominem?

I didn't realize you WERE your argument.

How interesting.
I don't know what you're talking about, you're sounding nonsensical. I was calling your biased attacks on me as being simply ad hominem and not real argument. I didn't mention anything of propaganda or my own argument.

I'm so sure. Help help, my credit is diminishing. How will I maintain my starlet reputation.
Sarcasm is unnecessary.

I did; didn't really seem relevant to what I wrote.
You were continuing to simply attack me ad hominem.

Oh please. Everyone's a socialist. I know you far-right nazi types like to sometimes claim to be capitalistic, but that's just lip service. Your policies are always anti-free-market, nationalistic drivel. Maybe you can fool the hard-left simply because you're not "as socialist" as they, but you don't fool me or anyone else with a real education. Kthxbai~!
You judge me without even talking to me or actually listening to anything I have said. You speak of a "real education"... if it makes me as ignorant and arrogant as you or your "hard-left" buddies, I don't want it.

I am a capitalist, believing in a free market and private enterprise. The only restrictions I would put would be regulations for industry to work in the national interest, such as hiring domestic workers over that of foreign, and preventing them from forming monopolies to keep the competition in the market. I am generally opposed to unions and things like socializing health care or pretty much anything that'd give more power to the federal government and/or increase taxes.

Minarets are negative for Europe. I don't understand what you're trying to say about Christianity and the like however - to my knowledge Switzerland doesn't have Christian/Judaic states within it. If you mean like the Vatican in Italy or something, then what does that have to do with Switzerland? But I do think that no religion (with myself even being Christian) should have communities like that.


what i mean is Christianity like Islam wasnt invented in Switzerland .... yet why are you happy to allow one and yet not the other?? Thats being a Bigot
Does Switzerland have any Islamic states with in it?? if not why the ban on just minorettes?

what i mean is Christianity like Islam wasnt invented in Switzerland .... yet why are you happy to allow one and yet not the other?? Thats being a Bigot
Does Switzerland have any Islamic states with in it?? if not why the ban on just minorettes?
Because the SVP views it as a imposition of Islamic law and values which they find not only non-cooperative with Swiss laws and values but opposed to as well...

and yep id happily get rid of all minorettes!!! but id knock down all the other religions stuff to Churchs and temples etc etc (guess that stupid swiss party wouldnt have got so many votes had it not targets minorettes but churches instead :eek::D )..... religions causes more problems than it solves

what i mean is Christianity like Islam wasnt invented in Switzerland .... yet why are you happy to allow one and yet not the other?? Thats being a Bigot
Does Switzerland have any Islamic states with in it?? if not why the ban on just minorettes?
They banned minarets since they're the only people, to my knowledge, that wants to make communities like that. I'm sure, if they're true to their "non-secular" stance, they'd be against Christian and Judaic ones if they tried to pop up as well.

I still don't really understand your point about the religions not being invented in Switzerland, forgive me.

Because the SVP views it as a imposition of Islamic law and values which they find not only non-cooperative with Swiss laws and values but opposed to as well...

funny that ... im sure the romans would have said the same about christians and white people ... hey guess that makes the swiss sort of modern ... they just beat them up and boot them out instead of beating them up and sticking them on crosses and feeding them to the lions

I live in Switzerland as a foreigner, and the large majority of SVP voters are darned xenophobic farmers.

funny that ... im sure the romans would have said the same about christians and white people
The Romans (were white) DID until they themselves adopted Christianity....

I don't see where your comparison is going?

and yep id happily get rid of all minorettes!!! but id knock down all the other religions stuff to Churchs and temples etc etc (guess that stupid swiss party wouldnt have got so many votes had it not targets minorettes but churches instead :eek::D )..... religions causes more problems than it solves
As a Christian myself, I disagree. I'd like to see things like minarets gone, for sure, but I wouldn't start knocking down churches/temples/mosques, etc.

I live in Switzerland as a foreigner, and the large majority of SVP voters are darned xenophobic farmers.
What do you think of the SVP and it's policies that have the nation in debate... Where do you live in Switzerland? Which Kanton?
And where are you an immigrant from?

I don't know what you're talking about, you're sounding nonsensical. I was calling your biased attacks on me as being simply ad hominem and not real argument. I didn't mention anything of propaganda or my own argument.

So you mean I actually have to link to the post you yourself wrote, in which you referred to a simple question as an ad hominem fallacy, simply because you apparently forgot something less than ten posts and a few minutes earlier? Or perhaps you can find it yourself.

Sarcasm is unnecessary.

And?

You were continuing to simply attack me ad hominem.

Calling your argument "half-assed propaganda" is not an ad hominem fallacy. I know you seem to WANT it to be, but that really doesn't make it so.

You judge me without even talking to me or actually listening to anything I have said.

Yes, but it's not like I'm kicking you out of the country, is it?

You speak of a "real education"... if it makes me as ignorant and arrogant as you or your "hard-left" buddies, I don't want it.

Oh there's a surprise, a nazi against education.

I am a capitalist, believing in a free market and private enterprise. The only restrictions I would put would be regulations for industry to work in the national interest, such as hiring domestic workers over that of foreign, and preventing them from forming monopolies to keep the competition in the market.

I am a Christian, believing in Jesus Christ and God. The only exceptions are that I think Jesus was a fraud, I believe God's real name is Allah and I use the Bible to wipe my ass with.

That's about the same thing you said, only slightly more amusing.

I am generally opposed to unions and things like socializing health care or pretty much anything that'd give more power to the federal government and/or increase taxes.

You want to give the federal government the power to kick out immigrants for being Muslim. Oops.

funny that ... im sure the romans would have said the same about christians and white people ... hey guess that makes the swiss sort of modern ... they just beat them up and boot them out instead of beating them up and sticking them on crosses and feeding them to the lions
The Roman Empire was white at its core, and for a long time Christian. It wasn't until they became more liberal and multicultural that they broke apart from internal struggles. I believe they even used slaves and foreigners as their military near the end of their age, which is a bad idea in every way possible.

They banned minarets since they're the only people, to my knowledge, that wants to make communities like that. I'm sure, if they're true to their "non-secular" stance, they'd be against Christian and Judaic ones if they tried to pop up as well.

I still don't really understand your point about the religions not being invented in Switzerland, forgive me.


See youve been suckered in to the bigotness... they are like that .. roman catholics try to enforce no contriceptions and no abortions ... so would you vote for the SVP now if they allowed minorretts but no more churchs??

and you honestly think Islam is the only religion that wants everyone following it?? no they were singled out as they are as established over here as the others all religions would like the world following theres and if they could they would make you/us follow them

(I dont mind any religion but im damned if i will be forced to follow one or single one out to be attacked)

The Roman Empire was white at its core, and for a long time Christian. It wasn't until they became more liberal and multicultural that they broke apart from internal struggles. I believe they even used slaves and foreigners as their military near the end of their age, which is a bad idea in every way possible.

Rome/Italy is that place down in the medeterain right?? that place where people have tans all year round?? or am i thinking of another place where the streotypical itallian isnt a darkish skinned darked haired country?

I love how it's racism for any white society to become concerned about third world immigration and yet all we hear about is how whites in Africa deserve to persecuted and hear non-stop excuses for it.

See also the American Indians and the Aboriginals.

I'd love to see the world reaction to a group of Texas who murdered and scalped any Mexicans who crossed the border, like say the Apaches and other tribes did to all the settlers they could.

So you mean I actually have to link to the post you yourself wrote, in which you referred to a simple question as an ad hominem fallacy, simply because you apparently forgot something less than ten posts and a few minutes earlier? Or perhaps you can find it yourself.

You said, and I quote:
Do you think repeating the same tired, half-assed propaganda is an argument?
You called my stance "tired, half-assed propaganda". If that's not an ad hominem attack, I don't know what is.

And?
And what? I meant what I said, it requires no further deliberation.

Calling your argument "half-assed propaganda" is not an ad hominem fallacy. I know you seem to WANT it to be, but that really doesn't make it so.
Perhaps you could of given a legitimate argument as to why my argument could be considered as such, rather than just saying things from your high horse.

Yes, but it's not like I'm kicking you out of the country, is it?

Oh there's a surprise, a nazi against education.
I never said I was against education, just against your apparently liberal indoctrination. I attribute leftist stances often to ignorance, so I'd love to see people enlightened and am personally all for learning and growing.

I am a Christian, believing in Jesus Christ and God. The only exceptions are that I think Jesus was a fraud, I believe God's real name is Allah and I use the Bible to wipe my ass with.

That's about the same thing you said, only slightly more amusing.
I don't even know where that came from or its relevance to anything I said. Avoid attacking my religious beliefs (which you apparently have no comprehension of, nor are they important to the issue discussed at hand) and try to keep on topic, thank you.

You want to give the federal government the power to kick out immigrants for being Muslim. Oops.
You're making assumptions based on things I've not even said.

Rome/Italy is that place down in the medeterain right?? that place where people have tans all year round?? or am i thinking of another place where the streotypical itallian isnt a darkish skinned darked haired country?
OMG. Just leave. Troll.

Rome/Italy is that place down in the medeterain right?? that place where people have tans all year round?? or am i thinking of another place where the streotypical itallian isnt a darkish skinned darked haired country?
If you seriously believe having a tan makes you not white, you have a lot to learn. Also, just because a country/area is a certain way today doesn't mean it wasn't different in more ancient times.

I love how it's racism for any white society to become concerned about third world immigration

I love how it's gravity when objects fall toward the Earth.

and yet all we hear about is how whites in Africa deserve to persecuted and hear non-stop excuses for it.

Who is "we?" Because obviously "we" doesn't include me. What kind of life do you live where the only thing you hear about, and apparently non-stop, is that "whites" in Africa "deserve" anything?

See also the American Indians and the Aboriginals.

What about the American Indians?

I'd love to see the world reaction to a group of Texas who murdered and scalped any Mexicans who crossed the border, like say the Apaches and other tribes did to all the settlers they could.

Are Mexicans invading the US? No. Are Mexicans an overwhelmingly powerful, religiously-motivated colonization effort? No. Are Texans a technologically inferior, vastly-outnumbered indigenous population? No. Is murdering Mexicans relevant to the topic? Or indeed, anything other than your own barely-restrained homidical urge? No.

Therefore your analogy is stupid. Thanks for playing.

I don't even know where that came from or its relevance to anything I said. Avoid attacking my religious beliefs (which you apparently have no comprehension of, nor are they important to the issue discussed at hand) and try to keep on topic, thank you.


This topic is about religion .. the SVP got im on anti Islam votes and booting people out that look like they arent old christians (ie as you put it supposedly 'white at there core' (thats what it boils down to no?))

See youve been suckered in to the bigotness... they are like that .. roman catholics try to enforce no contriceptions and no abortions ... so would you vote for the SVP now if they allowed minorretts but no more churchs??
I don't know where you're getting your information, but I like the SVP because they oppose minarets.

and you honestly think Islam is the only religion that wants everyone following it?? no they were singled out as they are as established over here as the others all religions would like the world following theres and if they could they would make you/us follow them
Do you see Christians all over Europe demanding minaret-like communities, and performing violent acts of rioting if they don't immediately get their way? I definitely haven't heard of it. However, I did also state in another post that I would even be against Christian and Judaic "minarets".

(I dont mind any religion but im damned if i will be forced to follow one or single one out to be attacked)
How is my not wanting to destroy churches/temples/mosques make me want to control the world religiously with an iron fist?

This topic is about religion .. the SVP got im on anti Islam votes and booting people out that look like they arent old christians (ie as you put it supposedly 'white at there core' (thats what it boils down to no?))
It's booting out (or wants to, anyway) any foreigners (or foreign criminals), not people just because they're Islamic. It opposes minarets because it wants to keep it's government secular, which I agree with. I don't know where you're coming up with some of the stuff you're trying to attack me with.

I love how it's racism for any white society to become concerned about third world immigration and yet all we hear about is how whites in Africa deserve to persecuted and hear non-stop excuses for it.
I agree with that point. It seems to me like only whites can be deemed racist these days, when we're the ones being exploited the most.

You said, and I quote:

You called my stance "tired, half-assed propaganda". If that's not an ad hominem attack, I don't know what is.

You're right, it's NOT an ad hominem and you clearly DON'T know what it is.

"Ad hominem" means "against the person." I called your STANCE propaganda. That is not an "attack." If you really feel like I personally attacked you just because I called your stupid position stupid, then you need to grow some skin.

And what? I meant what I said, it requires no further deliberation.

Very well I accept your statement as true: sarcasm isn't always necessary. Nor are a lot of things that I'm going to use anyway. ;)


Perhaps you could of given a legitimate argument as to why my argument could be considered as such, rather than just saying things from your high horse.

I could, but I'm pretty sure I already have in this thread. Sorry, don't feel like repeating myself even if my opponents repeat each other's bad arguments.

I never said I was against education, just against your apparently liberal indoctrination.

So you support education, you just don't want one yourself.

I attribute leftist stances often to ignorance,

Troll.

I don't even know where that came from or its relevance to anything I said. Avoid attacking my religious beliefs

I guess the point missed your head completely. Oh well. If you think I was attacking your religious beliefs then there's really no point in discussion at all, is there? I mean it's like trying to get someone to answer about whether they want a ham or beef sandwich, and they keep insisting that "blue is stinky."

You're making assumptions based on things I've not even said.

Nah. Although I do fault myself for temporarily bothering to figure out what you're on about at all.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but I like the SVP because they oppose minarets. Would you think they were joke of a party if they wanted churches opposed?? ... if yes that makes you a bigot for wanting the minarets gone?? and if you only want chuchers there ... isnt that creating a church state?? would you not have to follow the Church Values more stricity if the church was the ruling party??


Do you see Christians all over Europe demanding minaret-like communities, and performing violent acts of rioting if they don't immediately get their way? I definitely haven't heard of it. However, I did also state in another post that I would even be against Christian and Judaic "minarets".
Cool if i start a party to oppose new churches and temples (which are the equvilent of a minaret) would you vote and post like this for it??
(If you want i will only boot out dark haired white people to as the sterotypical 3 white sheep in my posters would have blonde wool)
and no you dont see riots now ... they happened 100's of years ago in the west when the other religions got over here


How is my not wanting to destroy churches/temples/mosques make me want to control the world religiously with an iron fist?
hmmm lost me ... your arguing for not wanting to destroy Mosques now?? i thought a minaret was part of a mosque (the equivelnt of a bell tower/steeple/tower in a church)

I agree with that point. It seems to me like only whites can be deemed racist these days, when we're the ones being exploited the most.

http://i1.photoblog.com/photos/16929-1175115395-18-l.jpg

The fact that you and the other SVD supporters in this thread always hearken back to some sort of racial paranoia pretty much proves my point.

I get it Greater, it's ok to butcher immigrants if they are technologically more advanced than you.

Muslims and other immigrants to Europe have never faced anything close to the level of violence, racism and xenophobia that white settlers have in every place that they have immigrated. No one ever calls the natives of these places Nazi's though.

And don't say there is a difference. Except of course that white settlers had to fight and die for what they wanted, they didn't have it given to them. They couldn't just settle peacefully. And they are called the bigots for doing it. You ever hear an African called a racist imperialist for moving to Europe?

http://i1.photoblog.com/photos/16929-1175115395-18-l.jpg

The fact that you and the other SVD supporters in this thread always hearken back to some sort of racial paranoia pretty much proves my point.
Are you calling all Christians white? You racist!

I get it Greater, it's ok to butcher immigrants if they are technologically more advanced than you.


No, you clearly don't get it. The colonization of the Americas by European powers was not "immigration." If it was immigration, those "settlers" you talked about were trying to become a part of Native civilization! Obviously they weren't. They didn't want to become members of any tribe. They were not immigrants; they were invaders.

I know it's hard to understand, but these are two different things.

Muslims and other immigrants to Europe have never faced anything close to the level violence and racism that white settlers have in every place that they have immigrated.

Imagine that - invade places and you'll encounter violence. Who would have thought?

No one ever calls the natives of these places Nazi's though.

Usually because they're not socialized, nationalized political groups that spread cartoony, racial-bigoted propaganda posters in an attempt to use racial- and ethnic-fearmongering to gain political power.

Perhaps that's why.

And don't say there is a difference. Except of course that white settlers had to fight and die for what they wanted, they didn't have it given to them.

Don't you have a Bund meeting or something? I don't think this whole, reading and writing thing will work for you.

You're right, it's NOT an ad hominem and you clearly DON'T know what it is.

"Ad hominem" means "against the person." I called your STANCE propaganda. That is not an "attack." If you really feel like I personally attacked you just because I called your stupid position stupid, then you need to grow some skin.
You mocked my beliefs, thus mocking me - I'm far more responsive to legitimate argument. If I called your stance a liberal, half-assed crock of shit, you wouldn't consider that an attack against your person?

So you support education, you just don't want one yourself.
I don't see how you could of derived that I don't want an education when I clearly said

Troll.
I don't see how my observation that, for example, people don't understand nationalism because they don't know what it's really about, as being a "troll" move. It's legitimate ignorance. They're not necessarily bad people, but just uninformed.

I guess the point missed your head completely. Oh well. If you think I was attacking your religious beliefs then there's really no point in discussion at all, is there? I mean it's like trying to get someone to answer about whether they want a ham or beef sandwich, and they keep insisting that "blue is stinky."
I am getting the feeling you're just trying to make me angry, hoping I'll explode into some "evil, epithet-spewing Nazi".

Ok, so white settlers going to countries with much, much smaller populations in vast areas of land around the world was invasion and not immigration? Interesting.

Yeah, they deserved the violence for moving there. Oh yeah and I'm a Nazi for pointing this out. When you have no idea my ethnic background is in the first place. Sounds a bit racist.

I get it Greater, it's ok to butcher immigrants if they are technologically more advanced than you.

Muslims and other immigrants to Europe have never faced anything close to the level of violence, racism and xenophobia that white settlers have in every place that they have immigrated. No one ever calls the natives of these places Nazi's though.
Pretty sure white people in non white majority countries face the same problems that non white people do in white countries .... lets see hmmmm swiss are booting out black and muslims ... hmmm in africa there booting out the white and the christians .. Austrailia well the whites over took that so the natives are the smaller minority same goes for the US etc etc

And don't say there is a difference. Except of course that white settlers had to fight and die for what they wanted, they didn't have it given to them. They couldn't just settle peacefully. And they are called the bigots for doing it. You ever hear an African called a racist imperialist for moving to Europe?
The black and muslims are being beaten up in places like switzerland so nope no difference ... only people silly enough to think its acceptable and voting for it to be legal (and shit me .... they have the rasicts and bigots in power in the countries where whites are treated the worst .. bodes well for switzerland eh!?!?)
and no an african when they moved here were give derogitry names as the white people who went to africa gave them the terms imperialists (imerialist to most is as not as offencive as the names they are called imo by some people still these days)

Ok, so white settlers going to countries with much, much smaller populations in vast areas of land around the world was invasion and not immigration?

"Settlers" coming with the force of arms to oust people from their territories are not immigrants, no. Or perhaps you think that Poland 1941 was nothing more than a couple German folks immigrating?


Yeah, they deserved the violence for moving there.

"Deserve"'s got nothing to do with it.

Oh yeah and I'm a Nazi for pointing this out. When you have no idea my ethnic background is in the first place. Sounds a bit racist.

I don't know your ethnic background, though I can certainly guess. Not that it's relevant to anything I've said.

So your argument is basically that all the mostly poor people who migrated from Europe to the Americas and Australia and Africa were racist invaders who deserved to be killed by the natives? Who aren't racist bigots for wanting them out. It's completely different from the huge communities of immigrants that have come to Europe.

Very progressive.

Are you calling all Christians white? You racist!

i dont think he i/was (i think you were trying to twist what he was saysing but .... im pretty sure hes aware the chiristians did what the muslims are doing now and went to new countries and converted non ''how'd you put... white'' people to christianity ..... we worshipped pagan gods etc over here they worshipped islam spirits etc over there

and no you dont see riots now ... they happened 100's of years ago in the west when the other religions got over here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzQFyhFNUtE

100's of years ago, you say? Despite some of its extremes and drama, it does show the point that these riots and the like are going on. I personally wouldn't attack people just because they're Islam, unless they're radical jihadists as portrayed.

You mocked my beliefs, thus mocking me

The only thing I mocked was your argument. Of course you believe your argument but since you aren't the same as your argument, it is not an ad hominem fallacy. Period.

- I'm far more responsive to legitimate argument. If I called your stance a liberal, half-assed crock of shit, you wouldn't consider that an attack against your person?

Nah.

I don't see how my observation that, for example, people don't understand nationalism because they don't know what it's really about, as being a "troll" move.

You and others here like to shift the goal posts a lot. Case in point - if someone points out racism in the propaganda used, the counter is "so it's wrong to be legitimately concerned about immigration???" This is a deliberate misrepresentation of both their own argument (kicking out racial minorities is not simply "being legitimately concerned") and other people's; it's disingenuous.

Now you are doing it again. Saying that all liberals are ignorant (which you basically did) is not the same as "observing" that "people don't understand nationalism."

If you want to just argue with constructs of your own imagination you don't need me here, do you?

I am getting the feeling you're just trying to make me angry, hoping I'll explode into some "evil, epithet-spewing Nazi".

No, I don't need you to spew epithets. You've already spewed your opinion and that is enough.

i dont think he i/was (i think you were trying to twist what he was saysing but .... im pretty sure hes aware the chiristians did what the muslims are doing now and went to new countries and converted non ''how'd you put... white'' people to christianity ..... we worshipped pagan gods etc over here they worshipped islam spirits etc over there
I was making the point that his little pie chart had nothing to do with white people, so it had no relevance to what I even said or the argument he was trying to make. Maybe if he wanted to throw out some graphs showing the amounts of black-on-white crime compared to white-on-black, we'd be seeing a much different majority.

So your argument is basically that all the mostly poor people who migrated from Europe to the Americas and Australia and Africa were racist invaders who deserved to be killed by the natives? Who aren't racist bigots for wanting them out. It's completely different from the huge communities of immigrants that have come to Europe.

Very progressive.

no your right!! they were rasict invaders ... slavery etc came .... damn maybe youve just proved that the islamists are nice as im sure they arent killing as many or sending people back to there home land enmass ..... its a very good point you made

I guess Europe got off lucky when we went over there being able to dominate them and the muslims coming over here being more peacful are paying the price

Are you calling all Christians white? You racist!

I'm saying the idea of a majority - be it an ethnic group or religion - claiming to be "repressed" or "oppressed" or "exploited" by some evil minority is laughably absurd.

Particularly when it's that same majority who is arguing for exploitation and oppression, not the minority.

Let me know if you can advance beyond "I'm rubber and you're glue" as a debating tactic.

Slavery was already in use in all of those places. American Indians practiced slavery for centuries before and decades after the practice was ended in the United States.

You won't hear too many college lectures about that though. You never hear American Indians referred to as racist slavers who butchered any immigrants they could. Doesn't go over well.

So your argument is basically that all the mostly poor people who migrated from Europe to the Americas and Australia and Africa were racist invaders

Well, most people at the time were racist.

But yes, they were invaders. They came armed, and they came to take what wasn't theirs. Resources that weren't theirs, lands that weren't theirs, and to do it by getting rid of those who already had it.

If that's not invasion nothing is.

who deserved to be killed by the natives?

"Deserve" has, again, nothing to do with it.

Who aren't racist bigots for wanting them out

There is a difference between self-defense and persecution.

. It's completely different from the huge communities of immigrants that have come to Europe.

Indeed it is.

The only thing I mocked was your argument. Of course you believe your argument but since you aren't the same as your argument, it is not an ad hominem fallacy. Period.
I am what I believe. I'm not sorry for having faith in myself.

Nah.
Then your argument is a liberal, half-assed crock of shit.

You and others here like to shift the goal posts a lot. Case in point - if someone points out racism in the propaganda used, the counter is "so it's wrong to be legitimately concerned about immigration???" This is a deliberate misrepresentation of both their own argument (kicking out racial minorities is not simply "being legitimately concerned") and other people's; it's disingenuous.
I don't like illegal immigration, even if they are white. But I do like legal immigration into my country from fellow whites, since we're all from common ground and best associated with each other. I want other races and the like to be in their homelands, happy and independent among their own people as much as I want that for myself and my people.

Now you are doing it again. Saying that all liberals are ignorant (which you basically did) is not the same as "observing" that "people don't understand nationalism."
I never said all liberals are ignorant, I said most liberals (for my example) don't understand nationalism, and if they don't understand it, it's the same as being ignorant. I'm not calling them stupid, but uninformed or misinformed.

If you want to just argue with constructs of your own imagination you don't need me here, do you?

No, I don't need you to spew epithets. You've already spewed your opinion and that is enough.
Your attacks against me aren't helping you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzQFyhFNUtE

100's of years ago, you say? Despite some of its extremes and drama, it does show the point that these riots and the like are going on. I personally wouldn't attack people just because they're Islam, unless they're radical jihadists as portrayed.


i think i must have mis typed or you mis read (will click the link in a mo) but i was saying that when the Christians came over here they caused loads of trouble riots etc (everyone was pagan etc at the time) ... if the video is of mordern muslims/some other religion its just proving the point i was making .... islam is just going through all the things Christians did (except back then the christians got away with more stuff becuase there werent laws etc and no youtube)

I personally wouldn't attack people just because they're Islam, unless they're radical jihadists as portrayed.

and for that post i do think better of you! ....unfortunalty with the SVP in power idiots will think its open season on anyone thats not white ... Jihadists should die ..... but you cant claim every mosque is full of Jihadists so not allow them or that means that every church has a pedo for a priest just because there have been a few extrimist priest etc

yeah you mis read .... the first few mins of them saying islam is about vilonce is an extremist view no doubt ... but i bet i could go through the bible and pull all the extremist views out of it and make christians look as bad (look at that USA group that are protesting at soldiers funeral ... they are supposedly following the bible .. would you say they are extremists or the norm?)

Slavery was already in use in all of those places. American Indians practiced slavery for centuries before and decades after the practice was ended in the United States.

You won't hear too many college lectures about that though. You never hear American Indians referred to as racist slavers who butchered any immigrants they could. Doesn't go over well.

ahhhh so that makes it okay?? fair enough the Europeons were okay to do it enmass then i guess (its a well known fact that native american indians took slaves and prisoners)

I am what I believe. I'm not sorry for having faith in myself.

In that case, anyone who disagrees with your "belief" is automatically attacking you yourself and making an ad hominem fallacy?

No.

No, nothing you say can turn a non-fallacious, non-argument into a fallacious argument.


Then your argument is a liberal, half-assed crock of shit.


That's nice that you think so.

I don't like illegal immigration, even if they are white. But I do like legal immigration into my country from fellow whites, since we're all from common ground and best associated with each other.

Yeah? I'm white, how much common ground do you think we share?

Again your fascination with race just proves my point. You can't even see in any colors except "White" and "Non-White."

I want other races and the like to be in their homelands, happy and independent among their own people as much as I want that for myself and my people.

Yes, many racists agree.


I never said all liberals are ignorant, I said most liberals (for my example) don't understand nationalism, and if they don't understand it, it's the same as being ignorant. I'm not calling them stupid, but uninformed or misinformed.

Before your example was when you said "I attribute any liberal viewpoint to ignorance." I hate having to repeat stuff that's already been written in this thread just cuz you keep conveniently forgetting.


Your attacks against me aren't helping you.

Life is paranoia for you. Criticism of your beliefs is an "attack against you." Immigrants are an invasion. Foreigners are criminals. Everyone's out to get you and everything is a threat. Where do you find peace in your life?

Life is paranoia for you....Where do you find peace in your life?

In a big group of white guys?

In that case, anyone who disagrees with your "belief" is automatically attacking you yourself and making an ad hominem fallacy?
There is a difference in disagreeing with me and telling me I believe in "tired, half-assed propaganda" with no actual intelligible argument as to why.

No, nothing you say can turn a non-fallacious, non-argument into a fallacious argument.
So you pretty much just said that nothing I say can make my argument as fallacious one. I'll take that as a compliment.

Yeah? I'm white, how much common ground do you think we share?
Common bloodlines, culture, etc.

Again your fascination with race just proves my point. You can't even see in any colors except "White" and "Non-White."
My fascination entails the preservation of a people and a culture. Your fascination is of its destruction.

Yes, many racists agree.
And many anti-white racists like to think that my views are racist. Even if you are white, there are unfortunately many aptly dubbed "self-hating" whites. Open your eyes!

Before your example was when you said "I attribute any liberal viewpoint to ignorance." I hate having to repeat stuff that's already been written in this thread just cuz you keep conveniently forgetting.
I forgot that? I was reaffirming it in my last post.

Immigrants are an invasion. Foreigners are criminals. Everyone's out to get you and everything is a threat. Where do you find peace in your life?
Immigrants who come perpetuating violence and racism are an invasion. Foreigners who come and commit crime are criminals. Biases that give minority groups special privileges over me just because they are a minority are a threat. There is no peace because I know I have to live in a world where just because I'm white I can't be treated fairly. This world needs a change for the better, and too often it changes for the worse.

In a big group of white guys?

Yes, but then you still have to worry about whether or not some of the "white" people are actually Irish or Jewish!

Also, what if they're liberals? Black sheep hiding in good white wool. You never know!

No no, there is no peace. Except trolling on NSG.

No no, there is no peace. Except trolling on NSG.
But of course it's not trolling for socialists and communists to attack me for having a different opinion than them. Oh, the hypocrisy!

Ok this is crazy look below I mean look this is what could happen.

:mp5: :sniper:
:sniper: :mp5::mp5:
:mp5::sniper::mp5:
:sniper: :mp5:

^^^The smart people will stand in the back? that's bad?



But of course it's not trolling for socialists and communists to attack me for having a different opinion than them. Oh, the hypocrisy!

You should be used to attacking those different than you. That's the whole point, innit?

There is a difference in disagreeing with me and telling me I believe in "tired, half-assed propaganda" with no actual intelligible argument as to why.


So you pretty much just said that nothing I say can make my argument as fallacious one. I'll take that as a compliment.

will leave geen sort that out lol


Common bloodlines, culture, etc.
Points out that unless you are as strict with beliefs as the muslims you have a problem with science has all proved were all from africa ... if your strict with your beliefs me as another white man can get away with arguing for my beliefes that i share no common bloodline with you and i certainly hope we dont have any culture that is the same


My fascination entails the preservation of a people and a culture. Your fascination is of its destruction.
Gah i love this line that the racists use .... ive yet to find one that can say what culture are you losing if you live in a democratic country ... please please tell me what the culture is that you think we will lose by having minarets (and dont say the skyline because church steeple could be as annoying to some)
and lol at the destruction bit mr i vote do get rid of minarets


And many anti-white racists like to think that my views are racist. Even if you are white, there are unfortunately many aptly dubbed "self-hating" whites. Open your eyes! ... hey im white and i think your views (not all but most) are bigotted and racist .... i have opened my eyes .. i think all rasicts and bogots (from any country and religion) are scum ... and yep that means i think your views are as extreme as the jihadists who want to do what you are doing to them


Immigrants who come perpetuating violence and racism are an invasion. Foreigners who come and commit crime are criminals. Biases that give minority groups special privileges over me just because they are a minority are a threat. There is no peace because I know I have to live in a world where just because I'm white I can't be treated fairly. This world needs a change for the better, and too often it changes for the worse.
Tell that to the christians that have gone over to Islamic countries (forgetting the fact we all originate from africa lol)
agreees forgieners and non forgeniers that comit a crime are criminals and should be treated as sucg
If only minority groups werent given speacial privilages considering the SVP would have one point been a minority group the swiss wouldnt have appeared so stupid in my British eyes
Awe the poor little white boy isnt treated fairly ... get a friggin life mate .. life is not fair .... gah if this is you now imagen how bad you would feel if you had something serious like cancer or something
and agrees ... if you re read your posts from a person who doesnt care about religion or skin colour you would see bad changes do happen .....with your posts it makes me think the romans messed up and should have wiped christians 'and the supposed white person' off the face of the world at the start

(and all the above replies i would give but switch to some idiot of another race or colour who posted thet im so hard done by crap you are... noes the nasty muslims are gah doing what we did .. its just not fair mummy its cheating)


Dinaverg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greater Trostia View Post
Life is paranoia for you....Where do you find peace in your life?
In a big group of white guys?

and lol thats the funniest comment here ... unfortunalty some idiots have decided to change the 'White Guys' and put Swiss there (im sure it used to be Nazis KKK BNP etc before but i forget they keep getting set to rights by the world and having to recruit new idiots to build back up)


Im out of here for a bit

There is a difference in disagreeing with me and telling me I believe in "tired, half-assed propaganda" with no actual intelligible argument as to why.

Surely there is a difference, but none that makes what I said an ad hominem.

So you pretty much just said that nothing I say can make my argument as fallacious one.

No, I said nothing you can say - i.e, "I am what I believe" - is going to turn my comments into an ad hominem fallacy. It just doesn't work.

Common bloodlines, culture, etc.

Common bloodlines? I'm a mix of Jewish-Russian and French/Native American/Danish. Are you as well!?

My fascination entails the preservation of a people and a culture. Your fascination is of its destruction.

Persecution isn't preservation. Freedom is not destruction. War is not peace. Anything else I can tell you?

And many anti-white racists like to think that my views are racist.


Even if you are white, there are unfortunately many aptly dubbed "self-hating" whites. Open your eyes!

Yes, I was wondering when I'd be termed "self-hating" or "anti-white." Talk about projection. Again, you prove my point.

Immigrants who come perpetuating violence and racism are an invasion.

Nope. But I guess it's to be expected that you have no idea what an invasion is. Where are you from? US or Britain?

Foreigners who come and commit crime are criminals.

Yes, criminals are criminals.

Foreigners are not automatically criminals though.

Biases that give minority groups special privileges over me just because they are a minority are a threat.

Ah, the myth of the disadvantaged white person.

Combined with yet more paranoia about what is a "threat." See, you have a siege mentality, you're being "invaded" by "criminals" and they "threaten" you.

There is no peace

That's unfortunate. I would say it has nothing to do with the world or being white. I think you are indicating a potential mental health problem. Clearly you have a lot of fear and anger in your life and you're not terribly well at comprehending reality either. I'd get it looked at if I were you.

But of course it's not trolling for socialists and communists to attack me for having a different opinion than them. Oh, the hypocrisy!

...when did I become a socialist or communist, I wonder?

It's funny how when I oppose fucking disgusting, barbaric racism I become a "black panther," a "communist," a "commie," a socialist...

I had no idea that "not being a racist" was the same thing as communism. Must be a fault of my "liberal" "indoctrination." Silly me, I thought communism had something to do with economics and politics.

funny that ... im sure the romans would have said the same about christians and white people ...
Out of curiosity, what do you think the Romans were? Purple?

Rome/Italy is that place down in the medeterain right?? that place where people have tans all year round?? or am i thinking of another place where the streotypical itallian isnt a darkish skinned darked haired country?
When they're tan... put them in the sunless north long enough, and that changes. Sicilians do have an unusually dark complexion though.

But of course it's not trolling for socialists and communists to attack me for having a different opinion than them. Oh, the hypocrisy!
It's called the double standard. :) Particularly prevalent on NSG.