NationStates Jolt Archive

...and no one cares.

Except the Poles, of course. So many people wanted to vote that in some places they simply didn't have enough ballot papers, so there were delays as more had to be delivered.

Still, things worked out fine. In fact, one of the Ducks has been kicked out of office, and the new Prime Minister is a liberal conservative, Donald Tusk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Tusk) from the Civic Platform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Platform) (wait...15% flat tax? Why there and not here?). It's likely that he'll be more reasonable in EU-related matters (so no more "we want voting rights for all the Poles that got killed in WWII and their potential kids"), and if he can forge a government without having to take recourse to nutcases, like Kaczynski did, there might not be as much talk about creationism and the like either, so Poland might yet be spared the fate of becoming Europe's Kansas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7054912.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7055670.stm

Oh, and Switzerland had its elections too, but nothing much happened. The right-wing populist, anti-immigrant SVP won a few votes, the Social Democrats lost a lot. But the balance as a whole is not significantly changed.

Wow, so the 2 main parties are a) a fascist party, or b) a free-market liberal party.... wow, Poland is truly the example of 'shock therapy' capitalism in practical realization...

Wow, so the 2 main parties are a) a fascist party, or b) a free-market liberal party.... wow, Poland is truly the example of 'shock therapy' capitalism in practical realization...
Well, the whole "end of 50 years of communist party dictatorship" thing left the leftist scene in Poland in disarray. They do have a few social democratic parties, it's just that right now they're in the process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_and_Democrats) of finally banding together properly.

Well, the whole "end of 50 years of communist party dictatorship" thing left the leftist scene in Poland in disarray. They do have a few social democratic parties, it's just that right now they're in the process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_and_Democrats) of finally banding together properly.

The Revolutions of 1989 were betrayed by the Western capitalists to open up the eastern bloc to be raped for new markets of exploitation. It's sad that the Polish youth under Solidarity fought Soviet dictatorship in the name of a more grassroots, workers rights, cooperatives and true socialism, but when it was all done the Polish people were betrayed by Milton Friedman style 'shock therapy' whose effects in poverty, lack of basic rights, unemployment and the ultraconcentration of wealth are worst than ever today in Poland. Poland went from one master to an even worst one: transnational capitalism.

I won't bother much answering AP's posts, they are just as well researched and unbiased as usually. I will only say that weren't it for the free market reforms of 1989 we wouldn't have the economy to speak of, post-communist countries that had their economies in way better shape but delayed the changes paid the price later. Yes, we had to suffer. But it is paying off.
As to the elections, the liberals will now be able to form the majority government with either the Polish Agrarian Party or the socialist democrats, the former beig preferable to the latter. So I expect the politics in Poland will return to its boring as usual self.
The big question is now whether the one Kaczynski brother remaining in power (Lech, the president) will sabotage the work of the parliament. He can veto legislation passed by the parliament, however it can be defeated by the 2/3 majority, and it seems that such majority can be forged in case of necessity. And presidential veto is the next-to-last recourse, if president uses it to paralyze the work of the parliament there are constitutional means to impeach him.

A sane government in Poland? I certainly hope so.

A sane government in Poland? I certainly hope so.

This is pretty much guaranteed :). While the conservatives who formed the backbone of the Kaczynski government actually received MORE votes than in the previous elections, the populists and the nationalists that gave this government radical flavouring were voted out of the house - they received about 1.5% and did not pass the 5% threshold needed to enter the parliament.
Actually, the biggest achievement of Kaczynski administration (besides the fight with bribery and corruption which besides being used as a political weapon yielded some real results) was pissing off the Polish voters and giving them the motive to participate in the elections - the turnout hit a record 55%. (Yes, it's a shame that half of the the Poles don't vote, it's the highest attendance since the 1989 elections which were the first real elections in 60 years).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliamentary_election%2C_2007

Well, I disagree with the Civic Platform on a lot of things, but they're a pill far easier to swallow than a)Law and Justice and b)Aciclovir. Damn shingles. In fact, I'm quite interested to see exactly how their policies pan out, if they get to finish their 4 year term.

Actually, the biggest achievement of Kaczynski administration (besides the fight with bribery and corruption which besides being used as a political weapon yielded some real results) was pissing off the Polish voters and giving them the motive to participate in the elections - the turnout hit a record 55%. (Yes, it's a shame that half of the the Poles don't vote, it's the highest attendance since the 1989 elections which were the first real elections in 60 years).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_parliamentary_election%2C_2007

They gave the rest of Europe something to laugh at now and then too.

The election was basically between an ultra conservative party run by twin idiots who try to look more important than they are by bitching in the EU and a market oriented liberal-conservative party which wants a flat tax of 15%, privatization of state owned economical sectors and health care. They also want to reduce the power of the unions. At least it's the less of two evils.

This information comes from wikipedia so there could be some errors.

A sane government in Poland? I certainly hope so.

More like (in)sane instead of insane.

It's essentially an election between an authoritarian capitalist party and a liberal capitalist party, talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't, that's capitalist oppression ingrained into the political system for you.... Solidarity did not fight Soviet statist capitalism to see Poland be taken over by fascism and 'free'-marketeers.

More like (in)sane instead of insane.

Really, even less insane would be good. Those Ducky brothers are teh crazeh.

Really, even less insane would be good. Those Ducky brothers are teh crazeh.

But all the dead poles from WW2 will be dissapointed now because they'll lose their votes in the EU. :(

The big question is now whether the one Kaczynski brother remaining in power (Lech, the president) will sabotage the work of the parliament. He can veto legislation passed by the parliament, however it can be defeated by the 2/3 majority, and it seems that such majority can be forged in case of necessity. And presidential veto is the next-to-last recourse, if president uses it to paralyze the work of the parliament there are constitutional means to impeach him.

Any hopes for a constitutional reform?

But all the dead poles from WW2 will be dissapointed now because they'll lose their votes in the EU. :(

Millions of Poles are turning in their graves.




And bumping into each other.

It's essentially an election between an authoritarian capitalist party and a liberal capitalist party, talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't,

Wonder which country Poland gets it's inspiration from?

The apparent heavy defeat of Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski's Law and Justice Party in the Polish general election will be largely welcomed inside the European Union.

That's an understatement.

At the very least, the new government should indeed be a little saner.

It's essentially an election between an authoritarian capitalist party and a liberal capitalist party, talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't, that's capitalist oppression ingrained into the political system for you.... Solidarity did not fight Soviet statist capitalism to see Poland be taken over by fascism and 'free'-marketeers.

I'd say the Polish people are well within their rights to make the decisions on their own governance far better than you are.

I'd say the Polish people are well within their rights to make the decisions on their own governance far better than you are.

We had the choice to vote for democratic socialists. They received about 13%. My brother voted for them with his whole family. Yet the majority still can't forgive them neither their distant nor recent past.

Any hopes for a constitutional reform?

I don't think we need it much, maybe the prosecutor general should be firmly placed outside of the reach of minister of justice – the duck twins tried to abuse the current layout with a measure of success, to put it mildly.

I'd say the Polish people are well within their rights to make the decisions on their own governance far better than you are.
Oh but they never did, their decisions were made by the Global Capitalists and the capitalist West, led by a minority economic clique in Poland, now followed by a fascist who's sole objective is to purge Poland of all communists (his words, not mine), it's the people like this who betrayed the true cause. It happened with Tianamin Square in which protesters wanted an end to the rule of the corrupter capitalist roaders, yet was hijacked by the West to look like a want for capitalist 'democracy', the Soviet Union was betrayed after the 'Communists for Democracy' and other groups worked for a more socialists and grassroots SU, yet what they got was capitalist shock therapy and a million russians dead and tens of millions more in poverty.

Oh but they never did, their decisions were made by the Global Capitalists and the capitalist West, led by a minority economic clique in Poland, now followed by a fascist who's sole objective is to purge Poland of all communists (his words, not mine), it's the people like this who betrayed the true cause.

You and G-dub ought to get together and work out the kinks in your "It's only a true democracy if they agree with me" theory of democracy ;p

It happened with Tianamin Square in which protesters wanted an end to the rule of the corrupter capitalist roaders, yet was hijacked by the West to look like a want for capitalist 'democracy', the Soviet Union was betrayed after the 'Communists for Democracy' and other groups worked for a more socialists and grassroots SU, yet what they got was capitalist shock therapy and a million russians dead and tens of millions more in poverty.
As a starter, the number of a million Russians dead is radically inflated to include both natural deaths, as well as a substantial influence derived derictly from pre-Revolution policies (environmental not the least of them). If you want to look at lethal shock therapy in Russia, you need look no further than the 1920's.

Furthermore, 'Communists for Democracy' did indeed allow for democracy: The Russian people didn't want the Communists anymore.

If you want to look at lethal shock therapy in Russia, you need look no further than the 1920's.

Like in 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922, when the following countries financed the Whites or directly sent soldiers to fight against the Reds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

Japan
Czechoslovakia
Greece
United States
Canada
Serbia
Romania
UK
France
Poland
Italy

Although Russia eventually recovered and even experienced extremely rapid economic growth in the 1930s, the combined effect of World War I and the Civil War left a lasting scar in Russian society, and had permanent effects on the later history of the Soviet Union.






Meh, wrong example, my dear.

Like in 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922, when the following countries financed the Whites or directly sent soldiers to fight against the Reds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

Japan
Czechoslovakia
Greece
United States
Canada
Serbia
Romania
UK
France
Poland
Italy

Oh, come on, you seriously expect me to believe that the absolutely destructive economic policies of Lenin were the fault of foreign governments? Ya, right. You do realize why the Western Allies intervened in Russia, right? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War) The Czechoslovak Legion, for example,had been fighting the Germans on the Eastern front, were only there fighting because they were promised safe passage out of Soviet territory by Stalin himself after the Soviet treason to the allied cause, until they Renigged, trapping them in the middle of Siberia.

Furthermore, the collectivization of farming crippled Russian agriculture and the Russian economy in a far more devastating manner than any of the puny Allied interventions had. Before that there was massive starvation and death, rather independent of the civil war, but because of feeble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Communism) economic policies. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Five-Year_Plan)

Is it any wonder that Soviet Agriculture suffered the least under the NEP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy), which was the most liberal economic policy embraced by the Soviet government until Gorbachev, even though that too was disastrous in the end.

Furthermore, the Soviet government launched active wars of aggression in Eastern Europe during this time frame, specifically the Polish-Soviet War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War), where, in reality, a large portion of the foreign powers who intervened actually carried out their intervention on the behalf of a newly independent Poland fighting the aggression of the USSR.

Although Russia eventually recovered and even experienced extremely rapid economic growth in the 1930s, the combined effect of World War I and the Civil War left a lasting scar in Russian society, and had permanent effects on the later history of the Soviet Union.



In the form of such wonderful experiences as the Kulak deportation, the Five Year Plans, War communism and the purges, yeah. It had an impact, unfortunately, you cannot allow the Soviet government to

I think it is good news for Poland. It will be good for EU-Polish relationships, and their economy. J.Kaczynski was seeking confrontation with Germany too often. Also, 2 brothers in charge isnt the best democratic way of ruling a country.

We all know the real reason the Poles are choosing a new government: no one could tell who was President and who was Prime Minister. It didn't help when they switched every other day, just to confuse the Sejm.

They go from a national conservative party to a liberal conservative one? Fun!

I do like how proud they are that they're about to get an integration and immigration policy. Not a new one, but actually get one! :p