NationStates Jolt Archive

AP: Sexual misconduct plagues US schools

By MARTHA IRVINE and ROBERT TANNER, AP National Writers 41 minutes ago

The young teacher hung his head, avoiding eye contact. Yes, he had touched a fifth-grader's breast during recess. "I guess it was just lust of the flesh," he told his boss.

That got Gary C. Lindsey fired from his first teaching job in Oelwein, Iowa. But it didn't end his career. He taught for decades in Illinois and Iowa, fending off at least a half-dozen more abuse accusations.

When he finally surrendered his teaching license in 2004 — 40 years after that first little girl came forward — it wasn't a principal or a state agency that ended his career. It was one persistent victim and her parents.

Lindsey's case is just a small example of a widespread problem in American schools: sexual misconduct by the very teachers who are supposed to be nurturing the nation's children.

Students in America's schools are groped. They're raped. They're pursued, seduced and think they're in love.

An Associated Press investigation found more than 2,500 cases over five years in which educators were punished for actions from bizarre to sadistic.

There are 3 million public school teachers nationwide, most devoted to their work. Yet the number of abusive educators — nearly three for every school day — speaks to a much larger problem in a system that is stacked against victims.
More, sadly much more, here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_us/teacher_sex_abuse

As a teacher, I agree that one case of sexual abuse by a teacher to a student is one case too many. As a teacher, I do not want to see a repeat of the priest sexual abuse scandals hit, we cannot look the other way and we cannot keep driving out predators on the idea of out of sight, out of mind, let it be someone else's problem. As a teacher, all I can really say is that anyone who would prey on their students, who would violate the trust given to them by their community, and by their students themselves, is not teacher at all, and I'm not even sure about them being human.

It's sickening, just... sickening.

SickENing, your grammar is just sickening.

Like Lindsey, the perpetrators that the AP found are everyday educators — teachers, school psychologists, principals and superintendents among them. They're often popular and recognized for excellence and, in nearly nine out of 10 cases, they're male. While some abused students in school, others were cited for sexual misconduct after hours that didn't necessarily involve a kid from their classes, such as viewing or distributing child pornography.

The figure referred to is the one the OP had in a quote: 2500 over 5 years.

Just so we know ...

SickENing, your grammar is just sickening.

Geography teacher perhaps :p

Geography teacher perhaps :p

Yeah, FUCK MATH!

Since when does the AP write stuff like this?

That's sicking, pure sickning.

It's hardly surprising that the occupation of teaching attracts pedos. The question is how to filter them out before they can become teachers. When that fails, as it must in some cases, they've got to be removed from any association with schools when they first offend, and charged as though they'd committed outside a school, whatever offence they're charged with committing inside.

Being in a position of authority over the victim makes the charge more serious. It's nothing special about schools.

Schools have to avoid the thinking of the churches who moved pedos from one parish to another: whatever disciplinary action the school or church takes it's no substitute for prosecution. Even when prosecution isn't possible, the school can and should apply a lower standard of proof and get probable offenders away from children.

Are schools in the US doing so badly, though? The rate doesn't strike me as that terrible in the context of what a huge school body we're talking about.

Of course it's terrible. But we would say it was terrible at any level of frequency ...

That is sick, I have a theory about how the teachers keep getting away with this, and it's not because that they get shuffled around from school to school like the Catholic Priest do, it's because they are tenured after three years (at least in NC they are) so their jobs are protected a bit more.

They can't do that! The freedom to touch kids is clearly stated somewhere in the Constitution!

What? It is!

That is sick, I have a theory about how the teachers keep getting away with this, and it's not because that they get shuffled around from school to school like the Catholic Priest do, it's because they are tenured after three years (at least in NC they are) so their jobs are protected a bit more.
Tenure doesn't cover this. Tenure means that a teacher cannot be fired without just cause, and breaking the law like this would indeed BE just cause.

while it is despicable, one needs to look at the numbers and make better analysis before jumping to any conclusions.
2500 reported cases over 5 years - that's 500 a year. Are those separate cases as in separate teachers, or investigated reports? It's important distinction which the article doesn't bother saying. A teacher may have several complaints reported and investigated against them - making it far fewer than 500 teachers a year.
And, as mentioned, some of those cases (how many? not mentioned) are from actions taken outside of the school. Again, this lowers the number of teachers being investigated for actions ('groped...raped...pursued...seduced' - very impartial reporting there) within school grounds.

So, we've left with a number less (possibly a lot less) than but no more 500 teachers a year being investigated - out of 3 million.
That's 0.16% of teachers at the most.

What are the comparative figures for any other industry or group of people? Salespeople, Police, Fire, Doctors: Are the number of sexual predators less or more than 0.16% for those vocations?
Hell, what's the % of the general public who have sexual deviancies? Most likely more than 0.16% I'd wager.

One more thing is the type of action being reported. A teacher having a dalliance with a 18yr-old student is (quite appropriately) grounds for dismissal but not for any non-teacher. Having sexual relations with an 18yr-old is hardly pedo-territory, as this report attempts to imply all cases are.
This report makes no distinction in quantifying the numbers involved, the complaints reported or any comparison. It reeks of sensationalistic rabble-rousing and poorly-written pap.

That is sick, I have a theory about how the teachers keep getting away with this, and it's not because that they get shuffled around from school to school like the Catholic Priest do, it's because they are tenured after three years (at least in NC they are) so their jobs are protected a bit more.

Oh, baloney. As soon as these allegations are proved, they are fired. As soon as these allegations are made, they are removed from the classroom until the investigation is over. Or haven't you seen the news stories on teachers who go to trial about this very thing?

I had a paedophile teacher once. He was a very good teacher. Everyone was upset when he got fired because no one knew the reason for it(he didn't have sex with any of his students). Students even demonstrated because he got sacked. Now when I think about it I always laugh. Don't ask me why.

And yeah, he got three years in prison and was forbid to teach anymore.

More, sadly much more, here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_us/teacher_sex_abuse

As a teacher, I agree that one case of sexual abuse by a teacher to a student is one case too many. As a teacher, I do not want to see a repeat of the priest sexual abuse scandals hit, we cannot look the other way and we cannot keep driving out predators on the idea of out of sight, out of mind, let it be someone else's problem. As a teacher, all I can really say is that anyone who would prey on their students, who would violate the trust given to them by their community, and by their students themselves, is not teacher at all, and I'm not even sure about them being human.

It's sickening, just... sickening.

Jeez. Come on, teachers, do your job.

And for today's priority reversal: Do fifth graders even have breasts?

as nervun said, one is one too many but its not like its a huge problem.

children are still far safer at school than they are at a family reunion.

That got Gary C. Lindsey fired from his first teaching job in Oelwein, Iowa. But it didn't end his career. He taught for decades in Illinois and Iowa, fending off at least a half-dozen more abuse accusations.

When he finally surrendered his teaching license in 2004 — 40 years after that first little girl came forward — it wasn't a principal or a state agency that ended his career. It was one persistent victim and her parents.


40 years ago schools didnt want to face the problem. today they dont take chances with a childs life. as the link indicates, today you are removed from the profession. although i wonder if he faced criminal charges as he should have.

More, sadly much more, here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_us/teacher_sex_abuse

As a teacher, I agree that one case of sexual abuse by a teacher to a student is one case too many. As a teacher, I do not want to see a repeat of the priest sexual abuse scandals hit, we cannot look the other way and we cannot keep driving out predators on the idea of out of sight, out of mind, let it be someone else's problem. As a teacher, all I can really say is that anyone who would prey on their students, who would violate the trust given to them by their community, and by their students themselves, is not teacher at all, and I'm not even sure about them being human.

It's sickening, just... sickening.

It goes to show, that since people can't be responsible with teachers, teachers should be banned.




:p

And for today's priority reversal: Do fifth graders even have breasts?


Some sure do. I remember a girl in my class in fifth grade who's breasts were bigger than our teachers. She also had some back problems.

Some sure do. I remember a girl in my class in fifth grade who's breasts were bigger than our teachers. She also had some back problems.

Implants?

Jeez. Come on, teachers, do your job.

And for today's priority reversal: Do fifth graders even have breasts?

it is not uncommon for a girl to get her first period at 9 years old. lots of girls have at least the start of breasts (which are particularly attractive to child molestors) at that age.

while it is despicable, one needs to look at the numbers and make better analysis before jumping to any conclusions.
2500 reported cases over 5 years - that's 500 a year. Are those separate cases as in separate teachers, or investigated reports? It's important distinction which the article doesn't bother saying. A teacher may have several complaints reported and investigated against them - making it far fewer than 500 teachers a year.
And, as mentioned, some of those cases (how many? not mentioned) are from actions taken outside of the school. Again, this lowers the number of teachers being investigated for actions ('groped...raped...pursued...seduced' - very impartial reporting there) within school grounds.

So, we've left with a number less (possibly a lot less) than but no more 500 teachers a year being investigated - out of 3 million.
That's 0.16% of teachers at the most.

What are the comparative figures for any other industry or group of people? Salespeople, Police, Fire, Doctors: Are the number of sexual predators less or more than 0.16% for those vocations?
Hell, what's the % of the general public who have sexual deviancies? Most likely more than 0.16% I'd wager.

One more thing is the type of action being reported. A teacher having a dalliance with a 18yr-old student is (quite appropriately) grounds for dismissal but not for any non-teacher. Having sexual relations with an 18yr-old is hardly pedo-territory, as this report attempts to imply all cases are.
This report makes no distinction in quantifying the numbers involved, the complaints reported or any comparison. It reeks of sensationalistic rabble-rousing and poorly-written pap.

*deep breath*

THREADWINNER.

Most incidents are ethical lapses (falling under state Administrative Codes). These involve certification actions within the office of the State Superintendant of Public Instruction. These include teachers with "boundary issues" whose infractions are against the professional code of conduct rather than the law. These can be as simple as "teacher takes student home in her personal vehicle when parents cannot be reached" and rise in complexity from there. These, once discovered or reported, are investigated and relate to the teacher's certification. If nothing is found, the investigation remains part of the teacher's record, but no action is taken beyond the suspension issued when the incident came to light. However, restoration of the teacher's reputation is often impossible. A small price to pay to keep children safe, but an easy outcome to activate for any student wishing to sunder a teacher's career (the only defense against false accusations a teacher has is a civil suit alleging "tortious interference with contract" (between teacher and district), and those suits are rarely successful.

If something is found, the teacher can be anything from "marked" on their record and effectively on probation to dismissal and/or wihdrawal of certification with either no possibility of reinstatement, or a substantial round of psychiatric evaluation and other retraining to cover the district's ass if a teacher is ever let back into the profession.

Some abuses are indeed criminal (falling under both the Administrative Code and the Criminal Justice Code). These involve both the State SPI and police. These are the cases that get the scandal-sheets' attention.

Regardless, those with "boundary issues" aren't hard to spot. It takes an administrator or colleague with some courage to talk to the person they see flirting with disaster before it becomes a disaster.

I thought a bit about how people likely to offend against students could be kept out of the school system in the first place.

I came up with a method, but now I'm worried about the implications. The method is quite simply this: lie detectors. Studies with lie-detectors have shown that even people who seem quite sincere in their certainty of being straight may in fact be sexually attracted to members of their own sex.

The same thing would work for detecting pedophiles. Show pictures of children to them, describe scenarios to them, and measure their involuntary response. That could be done during their training as teachers and before they are put into contact with any children at all.

Given that this would work (probably not 100%) ... why don't I like it? Well, we should judge people by their actions primarily. If their actions are irreproachable, there is no need to look into their motives. If a teacher teaches well, is a good role-model for students, and never does anything to even make a student feel awkward sexually ... why should we care that they jerk off when they get home, thinking about one of their students?

On the other hand, if sexual response can be tested by electrodes it is at least possible that it can be detected by students no matter how much the teacher keeps a stiff upper lip. It could be argued that desire amounts to abuse in the case of pedophilia.

And we're not talking about compulsory testing for everyone, or enforced therapy. No-one has a right to teach other people's children, it's a privelege which we (through our proxy of government) can grant or deny as we choose. Like drug-testing as a condition of employment, it's within a contract and the applicant can just walk away if they want.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Should we test prospective teachers for their involuntary responses, not just require that they not molest children?

Some child molesters are teachers.
Not
Most teachers are child molesters.

Well, one of the reasons teachers are fingerprinted when they apply to become teachers is so that they can check to see if you've ever been arrested....

nice spelling mr. teacher.

Well, one of the reasons teachers are fingerprinted when they apply to become teachers is so that they can check to see if you've ever been arrested....

Most of us would agree that people with a previous conviction for molesting children shouldn't be allowed to become teachers. One, it's a proof of inclination, and two, it shows that at some time in the past they couldn't control that inclination. That's enough for me, anyway.

Now a trickier case: some other proof of inclination without the person acting-out. For instance, a person who admits voluntarily to a sexual attraction to children but does not behave inappropriately. How about them?

The lie detector thing I suggested in my last post is even more out-there. The person might not even be aware of their pedophilia. Being a measurement open to interpretation and with a degree of guesswork, there will be some arbitrary line of how much sexual attraction is acceptable in a prospective teacher.

nice spelling mr. teacher.
When I am teaching, creating tests, or making worksheets I make sure to double and tripple check my eratic spelling as I damn well know I have problems with it. In other words, when it's important I make sure it's right.

Guess what, NSG just ain't that important.

Most of us would agree that people with a previous conviction for molesting children shouldn't be allowed to become teachers. One, it's a proof of inclination, and two, it shows that at some time in the past they couldn't control that inclination. That's enough for me, anyway.

Now a trickier case: some other proof of inclination without the person acting-out. For instance, a person who admits voluntarily to a sexual attraction to children but does not behave inappropriately. How about them?

The lie detector thing I suggested in my last post is even more out-there. The person might not even be aware of their pedophilia. Being a measurement open to interpretation and with a degree of guesswork, there will be some arbitrary line of how much sexual attraction is acceptable in a prospective teacher.

I believe the admissibility of polygraph tests in courts is contested because of the fear they are not accurate enough....

nice spelling mr. teacher.

Nice absence of capitalization, Mr. Perfect.

I think it's disgusting when freaks like this touch their children....

On the other hand...when it was a case (like here in Florida) with Debra LeFave (or whatever) and she had sex with that 14 year old...I didn't think it was disgusting...I cheered for the kid....so...I dunno..call me biased?

In fact, being a teen myself....I know me and my friends would always talk about fucking hot teachers...and yeah...it's illegal....but for whatever reason it's not morally disgusting like when freaks like this do this kind of stuff.

(Granted, we were not 5th graders when we were talking about how much we wanted to fuck our teachers)

while it is despicable, one needs to look at the numbers and make better analysis before jumping to any conclusions.
2500 reported cases over 5 years - that's 500 a year. Are those separate cases as in separate teachers, or investigated reports? It's important distinction which the article doesn't bother saying. A teacher may have several complaints reported and investigated against them - making it far fewer than 500 teachers a year.
And, as mentioned, some of those cases (how many? not mentioned) are from actions taken outside of the school. Again, this lowers the number of teachers being investigated for actions ('groped...raped...pursued...seduced' - very impartial reporting there) within school grounds.

So, we've left with a number less (possibly a lot less) than but no more 500 teachers a year being investigated - out of 3 million.
That's 0.16% of teachers at the most.

What are the comparative figures for any other industry or group of people? Salespeople, Police, Fire, Doctors: Are the number of sexual predators less or more than 0.16% for those vocations?
Hell, what's the % of the general public who have sexual deviancies? Most likely more than 0.16% I'd wager.

One more thing is the type of action being reported. A teacher having a dalliance with a 18yr-old student is (quite appropriately) grounds for dismissal but not for any non-teacher. Having sexual relations with an 18yr-old is hardly pedo-territory, as this report attempts to imply all cases are.
This report makes no distinction in quantifying the numbers involved, the complaints reported or any comparison. It reeks of sensationalistic rabble-rousing and poorly-written pap.

^Epic Win

Come on people, don't let the media fool you into thinking this is a real problem. We should really be talking about the 1.2 MILLION kids who is homeless in the US right now rather than 2500 cases of sexual charges over 5 years. It's amazing how real problems are completely underground while statistically insignificant incident is exaggerated to an everyday phenomenon. Truth is there's a higher chance of your kids killing themselves successfully than being one of the 500 cases a year.

^Epic Win

Come on people, don't let the media fool you into thinking this is a real problem. We should really be talking about the 1.2 MILLION kids who is homeless in the US right now rather than 2500 cases of sexual charges over 5 years. It's amazing how real problems are completely underground while statistically insignificant incident is exaggerated to an everyday phenomenon. Truth is there's a higher chance of your kids killing themselves successfully than being one of the 500 cases a year.
The issue is though, with 2,500 charges of sexual abuse, even if that was made up of two instances per child, that's still 1,250 children. Would you be ok with that if it was YOUR child? Even worse, would you be ok with a teacher who did something like that teaching your child along with 29 or so others?

The problem as I see it is that teachers who are charged with something like this often times move out of the district before their TL is revoked, or never bother reporting that they were stripped of their TL and teach in a new district in another state.

It wouldn't be acceptable for a doctor to do something to lose his licence and then move to another state and continue to practice medicine. It should not be acceptable or easy for teachers who have done something like this to do so either.

^Epic Win

Come on people, don't let the media fool you into thinking this is a real problem. We should really be talking about the 1.2 MILLION kids who is homeless in the US right now rather than 2500 cases of sexual charges over 5 years.

Hmm. That is compelling. Perhaps because this board is primarily political, and homeless kids are seen as a social issue, not a political one?

Because schools are regulated by the state, we go looking for political solutions. To reduce homelessness at its cause we'd have to engineer families or come up with a radical children's rights agenda. Heavy politics, if not outright impossible.

I'd be with you in a harm-reduction strategy though, accepting that children will leave or be thrown out of home and providing safe accomodation, necessities of life and continued education to them from the public purse.

It could make a good thread, if properly started.

*aims thinkofthechildren cannon at small-government camp*

It's amazing how real problems are completely underground while statistically insignificant incident is exaggerated to an everyday phenomenon. Truth is there's a higher chance of your kids killing themselves successfully than being one of the 500 cases a year.

Child sexual abuse is not an insignificant problem. What the media doesn't like to say is that most of it occurs within families ... and it's prosecuted far less than that within schools.

Also, sexual abuse will be an issue in any discussion of child homelessness.

Hmm. That is compelling. Perhaps because this board is primarily political, and homeless kids are seen as a social issue, not a political one?

Because schools are regulated by the state, we go looking for political solutions. To reduce homelessness at its cause we'd have to engineer families or come up with a radical children's rights agenda. Heavy politics, if not outright impossible.

I'd be with you in a harm-reduction strategy though, accepting that children will leave or be thrown out of home and providing safe accomodation, necessities of life and continued education to them from the public purse.

It could make a good thread, if properly started.

*aims thinkofthechildren cannon at small-government camp*



Child sexual abuse is not an insignificant problem. What the media doesn't like to say is that most of it occurs within families ... and it's prosecuted far less than that within schools.

Also, sexual abuse will be an issue in any discussion of child homelessness.

I know that, Now if we want to talk about child sexual abuse that occurs within families, yes that's a big issue. Child sexual abuse by teachers however isn't nearly close to that.

For those who wish to do something about this "problem".

Now I agree that teachers who are cought and convicted doing this needs to be out of teaching for life rather than transfered. But is the system we have today such a flawed one? Do we really want to spend more money to tighten the system? How exactly are we so certain that kids doesn't lie just to get a teacher fired? False sexual abuse happens, and someone who's 16 knows how to lie.

If you want to ask what if one of the 2500 cases is my children, I will want to ask what if the teacher is your friend/relative/children who got falsely accused?

I guess I should go back into saying, is 2500 over 5 years really a huge problem in our society? Do we want to tighten the system risking the possibilities that innocent teachers getting fired for false sexual abuse charges? And is there a real practical way that we can protect the children without being awfully unfair to the teachers at the same time?

Just wanted to link to a blog post that I think hits it right on the nose:

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/so-called-public-school-plague.html