NationStates Jolt Archive

I've always wondered. All indo-european languages have a 2nd-person singular personal pronoun, different from the 2nd-person plural personal pronoun.

latin: tu, vos
italian: tu, voi
german: du, ihr
russian: ты, вы (ty, vy)
etc, etc...

...except modern english, where the original 2nd-person singular personal pronoun "thou" has been replaced by the 2nd-person plural personal pronoun "you", originally as a courtesy form iirc.

I think that this is somewhat strange. If I say "You are walking", one cannot determine whether:
1.I'm talking to a single person I'm familiar with: it would translate as "tu stai camminando" in italian, or "du gehest" in german.
2.I'm talking to more people: it would translate as "voi state camminando", or "ihr geht".
3.I'm talking to Her British Majesty, and I'm using the courtesy form: it would translate as "Ella sta camminando", or "Sie gehen".

So, I'm really thinking that the "thou" pronoun, with its declension (thine/thee) and its possessive pronoun* "thy" should be reintroduced in current English use. Also, "ye" should be reintroduced, so we could mark the difference between "ye" (subject) and "you" (object).

Btw, a doubt. Since it's "tu", "du", "ty" etc, it would follow philologically that the "ou" in "thou" is pronounced like the "ou" in "you", but all sources give always /au/ instead of /u/ .

This is going to be fun...

*errata corrige: possessive adjective. sorry

Do you think this should also be done in American?

Do you think this should also be done in American?
how? do you mean by dropping the 'u', since Americans love removing 'u's from their words. In which case, it'd be 'tho'

Tho be walking.

sounds kinda cool. slightly retarded but cool.

You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
You must not question the English language.
5 million times please!

English has never made sense before, why start now?

Good riddance. Let's get rid of the singular third person pronouns too.:D

You must not question the English language.


Thou meanst, thou shalt not question the English language, doesn't thou?

I like questioning. Everything, everywhere and everytime. Who, whom, what, why, when, where, whence? And... why not?

Do you think this should also be done in American?

I somewhat fail to recognise American English as a language that's entirely separated from British English. So, if the Brits change, the Colonies should change, too. ;)

Thou meanst, thou shalt not question the English language, doesn't thou?... don't thou.

... don't thou.

Oh. Silly me.

"...dostn't thou?"

Oh. Silly me.

"...dostn't thou?"is it "...dost thou" or "...doest thou" ??

is it "...dost thou" or "...doest thou" ??

I went for "dost" because I think I remember a "doth" form for the 3rd singular, but I may be wrong, thou knowest.

The OP doth protest too much, methinks.

I somewhat fail to recognise American English as a language that's entirely separated from British English. So, if the Brits change, the Colonies should change, too. ;)

...or suffer the consequences...

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
- James D. Nicoll

"English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."
- H. Beam Piper

English is, arguably, one of the most bizarre and different languages in the world, an amalgamation of everything from Latin and German to Indian and Chinese. Likely fueled by both its early isolation (the place has only been conquered once in the past millenium, in 1066 to be precise, I mean, come one, France and Germany have both been overrun how many times since then?), and later cosmopolitanism, unique changes have been wrought to the language by time and change. Like a roast in a crock-pot, it's gone from being raw, nasty and unspiced to entirely delicious.

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
- James D. Nicoll

I'm just trying to prevent the English language to knock me down to steal my pronouns. I offer them to it.

Like a roast in a crock-pot, it's gone from being raw, nasty and unspiced to entirely delicious.

I'm just adding some oregano.:D

we must have gone through a formal stage where using the familiar "thou" form was just too too friendly (or maybe a meglomaniac stage where it was just too singular)

now a days only a few religious communities use thou.

because it is associated with religion through both these communities and the king james version of the bible, we tend to think of it as the more formal form. in this far more informal age (than the stage mentioned above) it seems ridiculous to address anyone that we can talk to directly in a formal manner. (for example, my husband has addressed every president of every company he's worked for by his first name. americans are informal people)

so we informal americans dont use the informal address because it sounds too formal for us.

so we informal americans dont use the informal address because it sounds too formal for us.

Ye americans are quite strange people, ye know that, don't ye?

Ye americans are quite strange people, ye know that, don't ye?

its our forté.

I've always wondered. All indo-european languages have a 2nd-person singular personal pronoun, different from the 2nd-person plural personal pronoun.

Yes but that's not thou. In those languages there is also two different types of the 2nd-person singluar, the 2nd-person singluar familiaral and the 2nd-peson singluar formal. (For example in Spanish the 2nd-person singluar familiaral is "tú" or "vos" while the 2nd-peson singluar formal is "usted.") "Thou" was the 2nd-person singluar familiaral and "you" was the 2nd-peson singluar formal.

The reason it's used a lot in Scripture, especially in reference to God is because of the intimate familiaial relationship between the writer and God. Since it was used for both friends and peple of lower status, it also at one time became the equality pronoun in some groups.

Of course for the 2nd-person plural nothing beats the anchient Southern US pronoun y'all.

Y'all should use "y'all."

I like to think that its one of those wierd little quirks that gives English its "flavour". Besides, thou and ye and thine are far too... Shakespearan

It's Yea, not Yay.

Typos usually don't bother me, but when you make a typo three times in a row, I get annoyed.

English is, arguably, one of the most bizarre and different languages in the world, an amalgamation of everything from Latin and German to Indian and Chinese. Likely fueled by both its early isolation (the place has only been conquered once in the past millenium, in 1066 to be precise, I mean, come one, France and Germany have both been overrun how many times since then?), and later cosmopolitanism, unique changes have been wrought to the language by time and change. Like a roast in a crock-pot, it's gone from being raw, nasty and unspiced to entirely delicious.
The various books written about the creation of the Oxford English Dictionary are incredibly informative on this point.

The OED editor in charge of the letter W (a guy by the name of J.R.R. Tolkien) insisted that the most interesting word in the English language, etymologically speaking, was "walrus".

Isn't the you/thou distinction mostly due to the misinterpretation of the thorn character (Y) in written English? Traditionally pronounced like a modern "TH", this confusion is also the source of the mythical "Ye Olde Shoppe". In that instance the thorn is being use correctly, and the sign reads "The Olde Shoppe", but modern readers are unfamiliar with the thorn and thus treat it like a "y".

It's Yea, not Yay.

Typos usually don't bother me, but when you make a typo three times in a row, I get annoyed.

Unless what was meant was not "I concur" but rather "Yahoo!"

:D

And yes, I know, if that were true, nay should have been bah. I could then do a whole riff on neigh and baa, but I won't.

Of course for the 2nd-person plural nothing beats the anchient Southern US pronoun y'all.

Y'all should use "y'all."

agreed.

I personally love the english language, and anyone who knows me irl will have heard me use ye and thou, namely in the phrases: "Oh, ye of little faith" and "Thou hast lived a sheltered life." Usually in a joking manner, depending on the situation. I'm sure i've used them in a few other ways, but those two are the ones that instantly come to mind. Though none of the times i've used them have anything to do with religion.

As for the confusion of singular/plural "you", I'm quite partial to the slang in this neck of the woods:

"Yous".

Sure, it's terrible English, but it does fill in a necessary gap. "When are yous going?" It avoids awkward social situations.

how? do you mean by dropping the 'u', since Americans love removing 'u's from their words. In which case, it'd be 'tho'

Tho be walking.

sounds kinda cool. slightly retarded but cool.

The 'u' was put in to make it seem more French and therefore better. The original words did not have the 'u' in them.

Aye! I want thou, thy, thee, thine, you, ye, and everything!

Thou meanst, thou shalt not question the English language, doesn't thou?

I like questioning. Everything, everywhere and everytime. Who, whom, what, why, when, where, whence? And... why not?

Then thou shouldst not have used "why", when the proper query in the language thou art using should be "wherefor".