NationStates Jolt Archive

As an accomplished semi-professional trombone player, I'm used to (and in fact expected to) reading parts in bass, tenor, and transposing treble clefs.

But what the hell is up with writing a part in alto clef? What the fuck was this orchestrator thinking?

As an accomplished semi-professional trombone player, I'm used to (and in fact expected to) reading parts in bass, tenor, and transposing treble clefs.

But what the hell is up with writing a part in alto clef? What the fuck was this orchestrator thinking?

It's truly scandalous.

He wanted to give you Tromboner's a challenge I suppose. I play Cello, so I'm used to bass clef. Although the great thing about Cello is that you get a much greater range than other Strings. But yeah, Alto is insane.

Who writes *anything* in alto or tenor clef?

Seriously, those extra clefs need to be phased out already. They're unnecessary and as you can see make things difficult.

Maybe the part was meant for an alto trombone (http://www.pittstate.edu/music/altotrombonehomepage.html).

Who writes *anything* in alto or tenor clef?

Seriously, those extra clefs need to be phased out already. They're unnecessary and as you can see make things difficult.

Non transposers and show offs, I say!

Ehh...having bass and tenor clefs is nice, as a part can switch between them and thus largely obviate the need for confusing ledger lines.

But trombone players aren't generally expected to read alto clef. It's a self-reinforcing convention that some idiot decided he'd break, just to "stick it to the man".

Maybe the part was meant for an alto trombone (http://www.pittstate.edu/music/altotrombonehomepage.html).

Nobody seriously uses the alto trombone anymore; and besides, by looking at the rest of the score I can tell that the part clearly isn't transposed the way it would be if the orchestrator had indeed intended for an alto trombone to be used.

Anymore, the Eb trumpet has replaced the alto trombone (also an Eb instrument).

Nobody seriously uses the alto trombone anymore;

Don't say that! You might give Prof Schickele inspiration to uncover yet another P.D.Q. Bach work! :D

Nobody seriously uses the alto trombone anymore; and besides, by looking at the rest of the score I can tell that the part clearly isn't transposed the way it would be if the orchestrator had indeed intended for an alto trombone to be used.

Anymore, the Eb trumpet has replaced the alto trombone (also an Eb instrument).

This wouldn't be a problem if you had a sensible two-and-half octave range like a saxophone, but noooooooooo, brass has to only be limited by the chops of the player...[/ignoring the existence of altisimo fingering]

Who writes *anything* in alto or tenor clef?

Seriously, those extra clefs need to be phased out already. They're unnecessary and as you can see make things difficult.

I think the string section would have a problem with that. Most notably the violas, who are written almost exclusively in alto clef.

To the OP: I would love to respond to you like you would respond -- that is, say that "alto clef is the way it should be" and just keep repeating that and its variations, but I won't stoop. Instead, I'll ask:

Is it a recent work, really old?

Would there have been many ledger lines even in tenor clef?

Why is alto any harder to read than tenor? They're both C-clefs and require a shift of a third down (much like treble to bass transposition) and nothing else.

I think the string section would have a problem with that. Most notably the violas, who are written almost exclusively in alto clef.

They should suck it up and deal. Learning a real clef or two will help them should they ever later choose, one day, to play a real instrument. :p

They should suck it up and deal. Learning a real clef or two will help them should they ever later choose, one day, to play a real instrument. :p

Wich should suck it up and deal? The ONE instance I've EVER heard of a trombone written in alto clef for reasons unknown, or the INSTRUMENT that has ALWAYS appeared in alto clef and which pre-dates valves of any kind by about two centuries?

Violas know the bass and treble clef if they've spent any time in a theory classroom anyway. You're asking the many to change for the sake of the very few. I think the 'bone on that ONE piece should grow up and read outside their comfort zone for a few bars.

Wich should suck it up and deal?

Why, the violists. Seriously, why should the smallest section of strings get their own special clef? It's not like the sound doesn't come out if the player is reading a bass or treble clef.

Violas know the bass and treble clef if they've spent any time in a theory classroom anyway. You're asking the many to change for the sake of the very few.

Not at all! I'm asking for the few to change for the many.

Is it a recent work, really old?
It's an orchestration for brass quintet of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony.

Would there have been many ledger lines even in tenor clef?
No more than two.

Why is alto any harder to read than tenor?
By convention, trombone parts aren't EVER in alto clef, so trombone players simply do not bother to develop the ability to fluently read alto clef. Certainly, it's a trivial task to count lines from a known note and go from there, but that takes time; in order to be able to truly "read" a clef you need to be able to make the translation from position on the staff to pitch on the horn automatically and instantaneously.

They're both C-clefs and require a shift of a third down
Not at all. Tenor clef parts for trombone are written as they sound--NEVER transposed, and this alto clef part clearly isn't either.

(much like treble to bass transposition)
Transposed treble clef parts are written up a second, not a third.

EDIT: strictly speaking, they're written up a ninth (an octave + a second), but you know what I mean

Why, the violists. Seriously, why should the smallest section of strings get their own special clef? It's not like the sound doesn't come out if the player is reading a bass or treble clef.



Not at all! I'm asking for the few to change for the many.

Swing and a miss. The OP is talking about ONE piece. One. the 99.99% majority of trombone parts are bass and some tenor clefs. Clearly, then a trombone alto part is the VERY few.

Whereas, violas have been looking at alto clef since early viols were so classified. Also, that clef wasn't always just theirs. The C-clef was the first clef to exist (look at the little C on the incipits of old neumes and chants if you don't believe me). Everyone used to read C-clefs. Violas kept them because it kept their parts on the staff. That's the whole point of trombones occasionally needing tenor in the first place, right?

So, no. Speaking as someone who teaches first year music theory, the alto clef isn't going anywhere. The poor trombonist who drew the short straw and has to play the ONE piece with alto clef in it for his instrument (and perhaps the two to four others in his section) will just have to use their brains and transpose.

Wich should suck it up and deal? The ONE instance I've EVER heard of a trombone written in alto clef for reasons unknown, or the INSTRUMENT that has ALWAYS appeared in alto clef and which pre-dates valves of any kind by about two centuries?

Violas know the bass and treble clef if they've spent any time in a theory classroom anyway. You're asking the many to change for the sake of the very few. I think the 'bone on that ONE piece should grow up and read outside their comfort zone for a few bars.

Ehh...it's an entire piece.

Don't you think I know I'm going to have to suck it up and do it?

That doesn't mean the orchestrator in this case was any less of an idiot for writing it this way. It's ridiculous.

It's an orchestration for brass quintet of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony.


No more than two.

Only two? I'd find out where the orchestrator lives and mail him a pimp slap. Alto clef is uncalled for in that case, as it is in every case for the trombone.

However, that's what you've got. Think of it as an exercise -- something to stretch your reading chops.

By convention, trombone parts aren't EVER in alto clef, so trombone players simply do not bother to develop the ability to fluently read alto clef. Certainly, it's a trivial task to count lines from a known note and go from there, but that takes time; in order to be able to truly "read" a clef you need to be able to make the translation from position on the staff to pitch on the horn automatically and instantaneously.

A) You're preaching to the choir. B) You didn't answer my question.

Not at all. Tenor clef parts for trombone are written as they sound--NEVER transposed, and this alto clef part clearly isn't either.

Why is it that I'm being consistently misconstrued here? TENOR CLEF identifies middle C (fourth line up) at a third higher on the staff than ALTO CLEF (middle line), thus, the shift (not transposition) of a third.

Transposed treble clef parts are written up a second, not a third.

Not when they're transposed to the bass clef, as was my example. Third space C in treble becomes second space C in bass and vice versa.

Swing and a miss. The OP is talking about ONE piece. One. the 99.99% majority of trombone parts are bass and some tenor clefs.

No, I was talking about violas and their alto clefs, not the OP.

Whereas, violas have been looking at alto clef since early viols were so classified. Also, that clef wasn't always just theirs. The C-clef was the first clef to exist (look at the little C on the incipits of old neumes and chants if you don't believe me). Everyone used to read C-clefs. Violas kept them because it kept their parts on the staff.

OK, so it's a tradition, but that doesn't justify it! As you say there were other clefs too, but like evolutionary biology sometimes the needless appendages don't fall off. That's why you need to get rid of them sometimes, like with an appendectomy, or divorcing your wife.

I just think the alto celf's time has come. The rest of us have to deal with above and below staff notes for years. Why shouldn't they suffer, too? Why for piano players there is no known clef that will encompass the range of the instrument. Two clefs aren't even enough. So I think the violas should just suck it up! Plus then I'll be more inclined to write parts for them if they didn't insist on silly archaic clefs.

Ehh...it's an entire piece.

Don't you think I know I'm going to have to suck it up and do it?

That doesn't mean the orchestrator in this case was any less of an idiot for writing it this way. It's ridiculous.

I agree with you. My riposte on "sucking it up" was directed at Greater Trostia, as I'm sure the quote in my post pointed out. I realize you're a pro and will do what needs to be done. GT was insisting that violas give up their clef for some inane reason.

Whining about alto? Seriously? Whining? My friend, you are playing on the most logical, easy to understand clef in the world, and you have the gall to whine? Middle-C is in the middle. There, you know how to read it.

It makes more sense than Treble or Bass makes. Besides which, we were first, and there's miore of us in any given orchestra than there are trombones. If the four of you-per-orchestra want to complain about the 12 violists per-orchestras parts (by the way, the difference between a "Fake" viola and a "real" trombone is that a "Not real instrument" viola sounds like an instrument, and a trombone sounds like flatulence in a microphone), perhaps you should note first that tenor clef and alto clef are the same clef centered on a different line, and that reading them is not so different at all.

A) You're preaching to the choir. B) You didn't answer my question.
Yeah, I did. There's nothing inherently harder about reading alto clef, no, but it's harder for trombone players to read in practical situations because it's something they don't ever expect to actually have to do, so they never work on it.

Why is it that I'm being consistently misconstrued here? TENOR CLEF identifies middle C (fourth line up) at a third higher on the staff than ALTO CLEF (middle line), thus, the shift (not transposition) of a third.
Fair enough.


Not when they're transposed to the bass clef, as was my example. Third space C in treble becomes second space C in bass and vice versa.

No, no...trombone (and euphonium) parts written in treble clef are written a ninth above what they sound, so a written third-space C on the treble clef sounds as a Bb above the fifth line on the bass clef. This is something we encounter frequently, so we are indeed quite adept at doing this, just as much as we are at reading bass and tenor clef parts--both of which are written as they sound.

No, I was talking about violas and their alto clefs, not the OP.

Okay, I don't know why you're not reading me right, but my point was that the OP's situation is ONE PIECE, whereas EVERY PIECE EVER WRITTEN for the viola exists almost exclusively on alto clef. I say that because you seem to think that ALL violas should change instead of one trombone section reading alto for one piece -- probably the only time in their LIVES they'll ever have to do it...especially if I ever get a hold of that orchestrator for being a wanker.

OK, so it's a tradition, but that doesn't justify it! As you say there were other clefs too, but like evolutionary biology sometimes the needless appendages don't fall off. That's why you need to get rid of them sometimes, like with an appendectomy, or divorcing your wife.

I just think the alto celf's time has come. The rest of us have to deal with above and below staff notes for years. Why shouldn't they suffer, too? Why for piano players there is no known clef that will encompass the range of the instrument. Two clefs aren't even enough. So I think the violas should just suck it up! Plus then I'll be more inclined to write parts for them if they didn't insist on silly archaic clefs.

Are you high? Tradition justifies just about everthing about music theory. Why? Becuase it works.

The alto clef keeps the violas ON THE STAFF, see? Why should they be forced to give that up because you think that clef's an appendix when it clearly is not? Your justification is that "we suffer, so should they"? Really? That's the best you've got? Come on.

There's no clef for pianists to deal with because pianists spend the majority of THEIR lives in and near the grand staff. The really ridiculous stuff is usually written with an "8va" or "8vb" or even a "15va" designation to avoid a flood of ledger lines.

Besides, you can't write for viola, anyway. ;)

You play the rusty trombone?
JK i had to go there.

Whining about alto? Seriously? Whining? My friend, you are playing on the most logical, easy to understand clef in the world, and you have the gall to whine? Middle-C is in the middle. There, you know how to read it.
I've always been aware of that. There's a big difference between knowing which position on the staff represents which note on the one hand, and being able to instantaneously and automatically make the translation from position on the staff to pitch on the horn on the other.

It makes more sense than Treble or Bass makes.
What makes sense is what's suited to the range expected from the player.

Alto clef is well-suited to the range of a viola.

Tenor and bass clefs are well-suited to the range of a tenor trombone--so much so, in fact, that no trombone player EVER expects to have to read a part in alto clef, and so never bothers to learn how (see above for an explanation of what it means to truly know how to read a clef).

perhaps you should note first that tenor clef and alto clef are the same clef centered on a different line, and that reading them is not so different at all.

It's quite different, when you're talking about actually being able to read parts from it practical situations. Again, see above.

Yeah, I did. There's nothing inherently harder about reading alto clef, no, but it's harder for trombone players to read in practical situations because it's something they don't ever expect to actually have to do, so they never work on it.

[bolded] Thank you, and good night!

I understand that, but for one piece it hardly qualifies as a hardship.

No, no...trombone (and euphonium) parts written in treble clef are written a ninth above what they sound, so a written third-space C on the treble clef sounds as a Bb above the fifth line on the bass clef. This is something we encounter frequently, so we are indeed quite adept at doing this, just as much as we are at reading bass and tenor clef parts--both of which are written as they sound.

Because trombone is a non-transposing B-flat instrument. I know that. I was going from a non-transposing point of view, being a vocalist. For any C or non-transposing instrument, my example is fine.

Okay, I don't know why you're not reading me right, but my point was that the OP's situation is ONE PIECE, whereas EVERY PIECE EVER WRITTEN for the viola exists almost exclusively on alto clef.

OK, but comparison with this alto clef trombone part in the OP is really not that relevant to my point, which is simply that the alto clef is an evil appendage that must be circumcised.

Are you high? Tradition justifies just about everthing about music theory. Why? Becuase it works.

Treble and bass clefs would also "work."

And sadly I'm not high.

The alto clef keeps the violas ON THE STAFF, see? Why should they be forced to give that up because you think that clef's an appendix when it clearly is not? Your justification is that "we suffer, so should they"? Really? That's the best you've got?

I don't see the reason to give any more reason than that. Why should violas be ON THE STAFF? Is there something about viola playing that unless it is ON THE STAFF something violent and terrible will happen? No, the only thing that would happen is a few viola players throw a hissy fit not unlike the one in the OP.


There's no clef for pianists to deal with because pianists spend the majority of THEIR lives in and near the grand staff. The really ridiculous stuff is usually written with an "8va" or "8vb" or even a "15va" designation to avoid a flood of ledger lines.

Right, and if I can read "8va" I think a violist can as well.

Besides, you can't write for viola, anyway. ;)

How would you know? I can and do. But I'd do it more often if I didn't have to use some nonsensical clef just because violists are too lazy to get with the times.

You play the rusty trombone?
JK i had to go there.

No you didn't. Plenty of threads for you elsewhere.

OK, but comparison with this alto clef trombone part in the OP is really not that relevant to my point, which is simply that the alto clef is an evil appendage that must be circumcised.



Treble and bass clefs would also "work."

And sadly I'm not high.



I don't see the reason to give any more reason than that. Why should violas be ON THE STAFF? Is there something about viola playing that unless it is ON THE STAFF something violent and terrible will happen? No, the only thing that would happen is a few viola players throw a hissy fit not unlike the one in the OP.




Right, and if I can read "8va" I think a violist can as well.



How would you know? I can and do. But I'd do it more often if I didn't have to use some nonsensical clef just because violists are too lazy to get with the times.

I'll try once more.

Violas have been reading that clef since they were invented, some 400 years ago. It isn't nonsensical. Once again, should the instrument, for which alto clef is effectively all there IS, be forced to change, or should intellectually lazy composers and arrangers who want to write for it have to learn the language? I'm betting there are more violists than composers or orchestrators. Face it, you're being whiny and petulant about having to learn how to shift ONE INSTRUMENT'S notes a few lines/spaces.

Not only THAT, but when you realize that modern computer programs like Finale or Sibelius can make something you write in treble or bass switch to alto with one or two clicks of a mouse, your argument fails utterly. Talk about getting with the times!

I don't see the reason to give any more reason than that. Why should violas be ON THE STAFF? Is there something about viola playing that unless it is ON THE STAFF something violent and terrible will happen? No, the only thing that would happen is a few viola players throw a hissy fit not unlike the one in the OP.

It's easier to read a part that more or less stays on the staff than a piece that constantly requires several ledger lines.

This is why viola parts are typically written in alto clef, tenor trombone parts are typically written in tenor or bass clef, bass trombone parts are typically written in bass clef, Bb and Eb trumpet parts are typically written in treble clef, etc.

For each instrument, its parts are typically written in a clef that is most suited to the range of pitches expected of its player. That's the whole point of having different clefs. It's not like every single part is written in the same clef...can you imagine trying to read a tuba part in treble clef?

And players don't expect to ever encounter parts written in clefs that aren't suited for their instrument. That's why we gripe, bitch, and moan when we do--because it happens, if at all, maybe once in an entire career--and we have to spend time simply learning to read a clef just for one song, just because the orchestrator didn't know what he or she was doing, when we could instead be spending that time working on actually making the part sound better.

It's easier to read a part that more or less stays on the staff than a piece that constantly requires several ledger lines.

This is why viola parts are typically written in alto clef, tenor trombone parts are typically written in tenor or bass clef, bass trombone parts are typically written in bass clef, Bb and Eb trumpet parts are typically written in treble clef, etc.

For each instrument, its parts are typically written in a clef that is most suited to the range of pitches expected of its player. That's the whole point of having different clefs. It's not like every single part is written in the same clef...can you imagine trying to read a tuba part in treble clef?

And players don't expect to ever encounter parts written in clefs that aren't suited for their instrument. That's why we gripe, bitch, and moan when we do--because it happens, if at all, maybe once in an entire career--and we have to spend time simply learning to read a clef just for one song, just because the orchestrator didn't know what he or she was doing, when we could instead be spending that time working on actually making the part sound better.

Well said, and a sensible argument.

I don't see the reason to give any more reason than that. Why should violas be ON THE STAFF? Is there something about viola playing that unless it is ON THE STAFF something violent and terrible will happen? No, the only thing that would happen is a few viola players throw a hissy fit not unlike the one in the OP.

Child, when you have actually played viola, you may come back and talk shit about alto clef, but let's have a little conversation about how the viola works. On treble clef, to hit our lowest note, we would have to be (off the top of my head) 6 leger lines below the staff. At that point, telling one note from the next is, at best, quixotic. On bass clef, we would be playing 8va notes as many as 5 leger lines ABOVE the staff, not even counting high position work. Our current clef keeps us (for the most part) on the staff, where we never go beyond 2 leger lines down, and 3 up, before we do parts that switch into treble clef (for the psuedo-rare very high parts).

Alto clef was not only first, and more sensible than the illogical clefs that followed, it also fits our instruments. Now, if some dumbass composer can't be bothered to learn to read a clef (golly-gee, 2 hours of flashcards is more work than I can do, batman!), that's his problem, and he should consider taking up a different job.

There has to be a reason to sell Blazevich and Lafosse clef studies.

I'll try once more.

Violas have been reading that clef since they were invented, some 400 years ago.

Yeah. Tradition. Same old same old.

Come on, you've already pointed out former clefs that faded from existence. They too were used for long time. Part of tradition. But change happened anyway. Fuck tradition! "That's how it's always been done" has never been a good argument.

Once again, should the instrument, for which alto clef is effectively all there IS, be forced to change, or should intellectually lazy composers and arrangers who want to write for it have to learn the language? I'm betting there are more violists than composers or orchestrators.

Perhaps, but let's see them play music without us. I can deal without violas just fine. You want war? War?!

Face it, you're being whiny and petulant about having to learn how to shift ONE INSTRUMENT'S notes a few lines/spaces.

As are you...

Not only THAT, but when you realize that modern computer programs like Finale or Sibelius can make something you write in treble or bass switch to alto with one or two clicks of a mouse, your argument fails utterly.

Quite the opposite. Modern computer programs can easily solve the violists problems getting used to treble clef. I mean it's not as if violists can't use such programs either is it? You've just made a great argument for implementation of universal treble and bass clef.

Child,

I'm sorry, but unless you're significantly older than 27 you really have no place making this kind of condescending comment.

when you have actually played viola, you may come back and talk shit about alto clef

Actually, I can come back and talk shit about alto clef as long as I want. I don't need to be a violist to criticize the alto clef any more than you need to be a politician to criticize policy.

but let's have a little conversation about how the viola works. On treble clef, to hit our lowest note, we would have to be (off the top of my head) 6 leger lines below the staff. At that point, telling one note from the next is, at best, quixotic. On bass clef, we would be playing 8va notes as many as 5 leger lines ABOVE the staff, not even counting high position work. Our current clef keeps us (for the most part) on the staff, where we never go beyond 2 leger lines down, and 3 up, before we do parts that switch into treble clef (for the psuedo-rare very high parts).

Yes, so it seems a default bass clef with occasional treble clef would be just fine for viola.

Alto clef was not only first, and more sensible than the illogical clefs that followed, it also fits our instruments. Now, if some dumbass composer can't be bothered to learn to read a clef (golly-gee, 2 hours of flashcards is more work than I can do, batman!), that's his problem, and he should consider taking up a different job.

Who cares if it was first? Slavery was first. Let's bring back the triangle trade!

Now if you violists can't stand the thought of losing your alto clef so much that you're willing to resort to childish insults, I posit that there is more to this than being "traditional" or "keep it on the staff." In fact I reiterate my initial hypothesis that violists enjoy the feeling of being special in this regard - as well as their usually low comparable numbers, the two factors contribute to a violist sense of elitism, of "viola pride" if you will, a kind of nationalistic us-versus-them attitude which would be wounded, if not insulted, at the idea of giving up something that now constitutes a part of their psychological sense of self-worth.

:)

I'm sorry, but unless you're significantly older than 27 you really have no place making this kind of condescending comment.

You are acting like a whiny 15 year-old complaining about how the "establishment" is wrong.

Actually, I can come back and talk shit about alto clef as long as I want. I don't need to be a violist to criticize the alto clef any more than you need to be a politician to criticize policy.

Yay, false comparisons! To have any credibility at all in talking about playing an instrument, you have to understand how it works. Similarly, a dumbass who doesn't understand policy doesn't have any credibility either. You have no credibility at all in talking about the viola or alto clef.

Yes, so it seems a default bass clef with occasional treble clef would be just fine for viola.

An octave too low, and STILL too many ledger lines up. Why change what works perfectly?

-snip irrelevant whiny-15-year-old-assertion-

Now if you violists can't stand the thought of losing your alto clef so much that you're willing to resort to childish insults, I posit that there is more to this than being "traditional" or "keep it on the staff." In fact I reiterate my initial hypothesis that violists enjoy the feeling of being special in this regard - as well as their usually low comparable numbers, the two factors contribute to a violist sense of elitism, of "viola pride" if you will, a kind of nationalistic us-versus-them attitude which would be wounded, if not insulted, at the idea of giving up something that now constitutes a part of their psychological sense of self-worth.
:)

Yeah, go back to your cave, troll. The clef works better than any other does for us, and there's no reason at all to change it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You are acting like a whiny 15 year-old complaining about how the "establishment" is wrong.


OK. And you're acting like a whiny 15 year old complaining about liberals and their evil desire to change How Things Are Done.

Yay, false comparisons! To have any credibility at all in talking about playing an instrument, you have to understand how it works. Similarly, a dumbass who doesn't understand policy doesn't have any credibility either. You have no credibility at all in talking about the viola or alto clef.

Yeah, color me convinced. I'm not a violist, therefore (to you) I don't know how a viola works, therefore (to you) I have no "credibility," therefore I'm wrong.

Nice ad hom, irrelevant to argument.

An octave too low, and STILL too many ledger lines up. Why change what works perfectly?

At this point I think it will be good if for no other reason than to loosen up the obviously neurotic mind of violists.

Yeah, go back to your cave, troll.

Uh oh. This is sort of wounding me in the same way that my having no "credibility" with you is. Are you going to insult my mother next? Perhaps that will work.

OK. And you're acting like a whiny 15 year old complaining about liberals and their evil desire to change How Things Are Done.

Change purely for the sake of change is nonsense. The current set up works perfectly fine for everyone. No other set up as-of-yet presented would work as well. Your irrational assertions are childish and insulting, but entirely baseless.

Yeah, color me convinced. I'm not a violist, therefore (to you) I don't know how a viola works, therefore (to you) I have no "credibility," therefore I'm wrong.

You don't know how to read alto, you don't know how to play a viola, and you want to tell me what is best for a violist? You have no credibility, because you don't even understand the musical basis for using alto clef.

Uh oh. This is sort of wounding me in the same way that my having no "credibility" with you is. Are you going to insult my mother next? Perhaps that will work.

See, thing is you have no interest in actually debating the issue. You're just doing this to pick a fight. Go back to your cave.

It's an orchestration for brass quintet of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony.

That's quite a reduction. Which movement(s)?

And regarding clefs, I agree, alto clef is really silly for tenor trombone. Clefs were/are used to make it easiest to read i.e. least number of leger lines and octave shifts. Alto clef is perfectly suitable for violas, and it's a shame no other instrument really uses it, I think clef reading is quite a good skill really, especially when reading older/authentic editions of older pieces. Heck, (J.S.)Bach could read at least 4 different clefs at once.

EDIT: Love the sig by the way, Kinda.

As an accomplished semi-professional trombone player, I'm used to (and in fact expected to) reading parts in bass, tenor, and transposing treble clefs.

But what the hell is up with writing a part in alto clef? What the fuck was this orchestrator thinking?

you mean that pretty little cleft all my viola music was written on? ha! I hated that thing.

I went in knowing Treble and Bass and was used to counting lines, but to learn a whole new cleft? too much. *refuses*


Eventually I got used to it and by the time I moved on to choral music it was useful.......since I sing alto/tenor.

Now I am going to hurt the person who writes the tenor parts for some of the music we sing (same guy the whole time) who somehow thinks tenors are supposed to be in the middle of the treble cleft. The bass part is on the alto cleft........wth?

Change purely for the sake of change is nonsense. The current set up works perfectly fine for everyone.

Obviously it doesn't or I would have agreed with it, no?

Tradition for sake of tradition is also nonsense, regardless of how many centuries that tradition is aged.

No other set up as-of-yet presented would work as well. Your irrational assertions are childish and insulting, but entirely baseless.

While you may be right about being insulting - certainly you seem insulted - you haven't shown them irrational.

You don't know how to read alto

I said that where? Oh right, I didn't.

, you don't know how to play a viola, and you want to tell me what is best for a violist?

Who said anything about what is best for the violists? As I've pointed out many times, they need to suck it up and deal. This is not an attitude of "let's think of the poor violists" here; that would be your view.

You have no credibility, because you don't even understand the musical basis for using alto clef.

Another ad hom.

See, thing is you have no interest in actually debating the issue. You're just doing this to pick a fight. Go back to your cave.

To pick a fight with you? Really? So like, when I posted about it I had precognition that you would come out of nowhere and start calling me "child" and "troll" and other silly names, and that I pre-planned it all specifically to "fight" with you? I know I have lots of power, but that is going too far.

Obviously it doesn't or I would have agreed with it, no?

Tradition for sake of tradition is also nonsense, regardless of how many centuries that tradition is aged.

You haven't provided any proof at all other than, "WAAAAAH! I have to learn something!!! WAAAAAH! I hate working!" You're the affirmative argument here, bucko, the negative doesn't have to proove a point, it just has to respond to the affirmative's points. As you've made no points at all as-of-yet, I am hardpressed to grant any credence to your position.

Who said anything about what is best for the violists? As I've pointed out many times, they need to suck it up and deal. This is not an attitude of "let's think of the poor violists" here; that would be your view.

We put instruments on the clef that best fits them. Changing that set up is stupid. Show me one benefit in taking the violas off of the alto clef, except to your silly little crusade against it.

To pick a fight with you? Really? So like, when I posted about it I had precognition that you would come out of nowhere and start calling me "child" and "troll" and other silly names, and that I pre-planned it all specifically to "fight" with you? I know I have lots of power, but that is going too far.

I rather think you were seeking a fight with anyone you could get. You certainly seem more interested in tossing about ad hominem attacks and empty, nonsensical waffling than actually making a single rational point. All you have done thusfar is come across as petulant and agressive.

As an accomplished semi-professional trombone player, I'm used to (and in fact expected to) reading parts in bass, tenor, and transposing treble clefs.

But what the hell is up with writing a part in alto clef? What the fuck was this orchestrator thinking?

Being a Trombonist myself, you can be expected to know Alto Clef; as it is more common in Orchestral works, there is also an instrument called an Alto Trombone, though it is not as common as the Tenor and Bass Trombones in use now.

He wanted to give you Tromboner's a challenge I suppose. I play Cello, so I'm used to bass clef. Although the great thing about Cello is that you get a much greater range than other Strings. But yeah, Alto is insane.
He wanted to give you Tromboner's a challenge I suppose.
He wanted to give you Tromboner's
give you Tromboner's
Tromboner

I have nothing more to add to this thread.

Yeah. Tradition. Same old same old.

Come on, you've already pointed out former clefs that faded from existence. They too were used for long time. Part of tradition. But change happened anyway. Fuck tradition! "That's how it's always been done" has never been a good argument.
*snip the dreck*

It seems that you've learned that tradition is always bad. It is when it it exists for its own sake. When tradition means nothing else works better, then tradition is fine. Would you have us abandon other parts of notation for the sake of change? Why not switch rhythm notation for actual time in decimals of a second? It's NEW, right? Also bloody inconvenient and stupid. Clefs fell out of favor because the instruments that used them were replaced. Nobody's replacing the viola.

And before you come back with the same old shit, just forget it. I'm done trying to convince you. You are wrong, period, and you're bitching about having to know one simple fact -- the notes are shifted one way or the other. Seeing as how you're a composer or something and not even PLAYING on the damned clef, you're out of your depth.

you mean that pretty little cleft all my viola music was written on? ha! I hated that thing.

I went in knowing Treble and Bass and was used to counting lines, but to learn a whole new cleft? too much. *refuses*


Eventually I got used to it and by the time I moved on to choral music it was useful.......since I sing alto/tenor.

Now I am going to hurt the person who writes the tenor parts for some of the music we sing (same guy the whole time) who somehow thinks tenors are supposed to be in the middle of the treble cleft. The bass part is on the alto cleft........wth?

Clef. No T (otherwise, you're talking about a dent in a rock or someone's chin). Tenors ARE supposed to be in the middle of the treble clef. They read treble an octave down. They usually only read bass if the bass and tenor are sharing a staff (choir reduction).

Old choral music editions will have the occasional alto or tenor clef. They're a cinch to read 'cause you always know where C4 is.

The bass part was probably on a C-clef (which is what the alto is, too), but shifted or something. I've never seen a bass vocal part written in alto clef, and like Linus and Lucy, if I ever did, I'd find the guy and give him paper cuts on his eyeballs with the manuscript of his error.

Being a Trombonist myself, you can be expected to know Alto Clef; as it is more common in Orchestral works, there is also an instrument called an Alto Trombone, though it is not as common as the Tenor and Bass Trombones in use now.

As a professional trombonist, wouldn't you think I'm aware of the existence of the alto trombone?

The part is explicitly a tenor trombone part, and NO ONE writes tenor trombone parts in alto clef.

As an accomplished semi-professional trombone player, I'm used to (and in fact expected to) reading parts in bass, tenor, and transposing treble clefs.

But what the hell is up with writing a part in alto clef? What the fuck was this orchestrator thinking?

You got it because you deserve to have such hardship placed upon you.

I've never encountered a trombone part in alto clef. Must be karma.

Who writes *anything* in alto or tenor clef?

Seriously, those extra clefs need to be phased out already. They're unnecessary and as you can see make things difficult.

I thought there were only two clefs. (I checked the list after I saw this thread, and I was wrong)

I thought there were only two clefs. (I checked the list after I saw this thread, and I was wrong)

Indeed. I actually see no reason for there to be more clefs in between bass (the best clef) and treble. I mean, they have a total of three notes between them. There's nothing you can use alto or tenor clef for that you can't use treble or bass clef for or just use an 8va.

Because then the choice is either a shitload of ledger lines, or a shitload of clef changes.

Indeed. I actually see no reason for there to be more clefs in between bass (the best clef) and treble. I mean, they have a total of three notes between them. There's nothing you can use alto or tenor clef for that you can't use treble or bass clef for or just use an 8va.

Hmph.

As an accomplished semi-professional trombone player, I'm used to (and in fact expected to) reading parts in bass, tenor, and transposing treble clefs.

But what the hell is up with writing a part in alto clef? What the fuck was this orchestrator thinking?

Beethoven wrote some in alto clef. Learn it and stop whining. I'm a horn player and I have to learn how to transpose in every friggin' key, and I also have to learn two different types of writing in bass clef. I have it much worse.

Indeed. I actually see no reason for there to be more clefs in between bass (the best clef) and treble. I mean, they have a total of three notes between them. There's nothing you can use alto or tenor clef for that you can't use treble or bass clef for or just use an 8va.

Violists would be really pissed having to constantly switch clefs. Alto clef exists to avoid excessive leger lines and clef changes.

As a professional trombonist, wouldn't you think I'm aware of the existence of the alto trombone?

The part is explicitly a tenor trombone part, and NO ONE writes tenor trombone parts in alto clef.

Are you referring to Scheherzade?

Violists would be really pissed having to constantly switch clefs. Alto clef exists to avoid excessive leger lines and clef changes.

They should just suck it up. Bassists have to switch between clefs all the time, believe it or not.

Though the problem could easily be solved with the use of the 8va.

And of course, this has already been argued to death on this thread and it appears no one is changing their mind. Plus, I don't care what violists think, there are other instruments in about the same range that don't seem to need alto clef.

They should just suck it up. Bassists have to switch between clefs all the time, believe it or not.

Though the problem could easily be solved with the use of the 8va.

And of course, this has already been argued to death on this thread and it appears no one is changing their mind. Plus, I don't care what violists think, there are other instruments in about the same range that don't seem to need alto clef.

Well, personally, I wouldn't mind torturing a couple of violists, but I guess older composers loved them enough to create a whole new clef.

They should just suck it up. Bassists have to switch between clefs all the time, believe it or not.

Blah blah blah. It isn't hurting you, so shut up and deal. If you're too lazy to spend 2 hours learning the clef, that isn't our problem. If it makes you feel better, advanced viola parts often spend more time in treble than in alto, but for low notes that doesn't work. To play on a bass clef, we'd have to be constantly 8va, or we'd be way out in ledger-line hell most of the time, and our clef is basically bass up a half step and an octave, so we basically already do that.

Whiny non-violists are the ones who need to suck it up. It doesn't hurt you that our instrument actually has a clef made for it.

It doesn't hurt you that our instrument actually has a clef made for it.

After reading through this thread, I've come to the conclusion that it actually does hurt them... In a dick-waving, "my-instrument-is-better-than-yours" kind of way.

Blah blah blah. It isn't hurting you, so shut up and deal. If you're too lazy to spend 2 hours learning the clef, that isn't our problem. If it makes you feel better, advanced viola parts often spend more time in treble than in alto, but for low notes that doesn't work. To play on a bass clef, we'd have to be constantly 8va, or we'd be way out in ledger-line hell most of the time, and our clef is basically bass up a half step and an octave, so we basically already do that.

Whiny non-violists are the ones who need to suck it up. It doesn't hurt you that our instrument actually has a clef made for it.

It's not "made for it," it's a holdover from the vast assortment of C-clefs of the late middle ages. Other instruments handle the range just fine without having to feel special.

Clefs between bass and treble are pointless when there is only one line between the two.

Clefs between bass and treble are pointless when there is only one line between the two.

No, it's more convenient than switching clefs and using 8va markers.

After reading through this thread, I've come to the conclusion that it actually does hurt them... In a dick-waving, "my-instrument-is-better-than-yours" kind of way.

Never been in an orchestra before, have you, Pot? We hear bullshit from other sections all the time about how Alto Clef is just sooo unnecessary. They're wrong, because the clef and the instrument actually fit (the implication I was attempting to make, by the by, was that the bass did not have a clef that fit it, not that it was important that the alto clef was specific to violas in this day and age, and that just because his clef didn't work didn't mean that we had to lose one that did work for us) and it gets exceptionally annoying. It really isn't any of their business what clef the Viola uses, and it's as annoying as evangelists who wont fucking leave you alone.

Indeed. I actually see no reason for there to be more clefs in between bass (the best clef) and treble. I mean, they have a total of three notes between them. There's nothing you can use alto or tenor clef for that you can't use treble or bass clef for or just use an 8va.

Except for the blazing reality of the fact that the viola was born in the alto clef. Other instruments outside the string family had their clefs thrust upn them.

Well, personally, I wouldn't mind torturing a couple of violists, but I guess older composers loved them enough to create a whole new clef.

Uh...no. The C-clef is the earliest known clef, as it appears on the heightened neume system right around 900AD or so. The viol family of string instruments, having surpassed such forebears as the rebec and the tromba marina, merely used what was already in existence thanks to vocalists...well really, thanks to those in the Catholic chruch who wrote it all down.

As an accomplished semi-professional trombone player, I'm used to (and in fact expected to) reading parts in bass, tenor, and transposing treble clefs.

But what the hell is up with writing a part in alto clef? What the fuck was this orchestrator thinking?

i wouldn't know but i wouldn't mind playing it on a french horn, or hearing what it sounded like played on french horn/mellophone and/or bass clarinet.

yes i'm wierd but i'm not evil.

sounds like something frank zappa might do.

=^^=
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