NationStates Jolt Archive

Fiji coup leader Frank Bainimarama has given a firm commitment to the Pacific Islands Forum to not only hold elections by March 2009 but for himself and the Fiji military to accept the result.

That goes further than he has gone before, when his agreement to hold elections by that date was "in principle" only.

Sanctions against Fiji by Australia and New Zealand will begin to be lifted as plans for elections unfold.

[...] In his speech to the leaders, Mr Bainimarma acknowledged that relations with the Governments of Australia and New Zealand "and in particular with their leaders and foreign ministers have not been the best."

"However today I appear before this forum and in particular Prime Minister Helen Clark and Minister Downer in the true Pacific Way.

"Given what I have said, I offer dialogue and ask them to engage with me and my Government. Let's work together and with each other as partners, as neighbours, as friends to address the challenges faced by my country."


(link (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10470465&pnum=0))

When the time for the election comes, I'll be very interested to see what results it produces, and what happens if Qarase's SVT party is elected.

The other question is: will Bainimarama be able to change the electoral system and replace ethnic electoral rolls with a common one? And if so, how will Australia and New Zealand react? They seem to be saying they don't want the interim government to make any changes to the Constitution.

Democracy in Fiji by 2009?

I am reminded of this graphic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Hurd-logo.png

(link (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10470465&pnum=0))

When the time for the election comes, I'll be very interested to see what results it produces, and what happens if Qarase's SVT party is elected.

The other question is: will Bainimarama be able to change the electoral system and replace ethnic electoral rolls with a common one? And if so, how will Australia and New Zealand react? They seem to be saying they don't want the interim government to make any changes to the Constitution.

Good for them. When will USA be a democracy again?

'Cause Fiji, due their size and impact, isn't messing up my life. US of A is.

Now taking bets on how long before Fiji's next coup. I've got $20 on 2011.

Oh thank god, Fiji will be a democracy. I was really hoping that they would become one. I mean, being a young male in Oklahoma gives me nothing (and I mean nothing) else to worry about!

Now taking bets on how long before Fiji's next coup. I've got $20 on 2011.

$30 on the day of the results!

Democracy in Fiji by 2009?

I am reminded of this graphic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Hurd-logo.png

Do you even know what the situation in Fiji is, what the previous government was, why there was a coup, and what the preparations for the next election entail? I do.


Now taking bets on how long before Fiji's next coup. I've got $20 on 2011.

Depends on who's elected... Until 2006, all coups were by indigenous right-wing racist nationalists. If the Fiji Labour Party is elected, they're going to be pissed off. The FLP has only come to power twice in Fiji, and was overthrown both times in a coup within a few months. On the other hand, if Bainimarama is still head of the army, he's not going to allow such a coup to happen. If the FLP is elected in 2009, things will be tense, but I think they'll have protection from the top ranks of the military (if not from the rank & file).

If the SVT (Qarase's right-wing indigenous nationalists) is elected... Bainimarama has pledged to respect the result of the election, of course, but I can't imagine him sitting by idly if the SVT campaigns on an indigenous supremacist platform during the preparations for the election. My guess is Bainimarama will put pressure on the SVT to campaign on policies he finds acceptable, and not to field Qarase as their candidate. Assuming Bainimarama remains head of the military, the SVT is going to have to find some way not to provoke him too much. I've no idea what the SVT's approach to this is going to be, though.

There's also the issue of whether or not Bainimarama is able to replace the ethnic rolls by a common roll before the election. Australia and New Zealand will probably pressure him not to. He says it would be a way to lessen ethnic tensions and to held end Fiji's "coup culture". He may be right to a certain extent, but that's another complex issue.

There's also the issue of whether or not Bainimarama is able to replace the ethnic rolls by a common roll before the election. Australia and New Zealand will probably pressure him not to. He says it would be a way to lessen ethnic tensions and to held end Fiji's "coup culture". He may be right to a certain extent, but that's another complex issue.

Why wouldn't Australia and NZ support this? In case it pisses off nationalists who think it gives Indians too much power or something?

Why wouldn't Australia and NZ support this? In case it pisses off nationalists who think it gives Indians too much power or something?

Australia and NZ's position is that the interim government, since it wasn't elected, has no mandate to modify the constitution. The electoral roll system is part of the constitution, so changing it would require constitutional amendment.

Oh thank god, Fiji will be a democracy. I was really hoping that they would become one. I mean, being a young male in Oklahoma gives me nothing (and I mean nothing) else to worry about!
Yes, your petty and stupid problems are so much more important than the lives of more than 800,000 people who live in Fiji.


Furthermore, if you don't care, don't read the thread.

Do you even know what the situation in Fiji is, what the previous government was, why there was a coup, and what the preparations for the next election entail? I do.



Did you understand what that graphic means?

Did you understand what that graphic means?

Perhaps you can tell me what this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd) has to do with Fiji?

Good for them. When will USA be a democracy again?

:rolleyes:

For the thread...Good for Fiji. Hopefully they'll ignore NZ and Australia and do what needs to be done to fix their country.

:rolleyes:

For the thread...Good for Fiji. Hopefully they'll ignore NZ and Australia and do what needs to be done to fix their country.

Still, messing with the constitution shouldn't be taken lightly.

Still, messing with the constitution shouldn't be taken lightly.

I agree that it should not be taken lightly.

Perhaps you can tell me what this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd) has to do with Fiji?

Very simple. GNU_Hurd is frequently associated in the Open-Source with something that's permanently in developement, constantly promised to be delivered within "half a year" and never delivered in fact.

Quite like democracy in Fiji. :)

i happy for them. i'm still looking forward to the day america does.

=^^=
.../\...

i happy for them. i'm still looking forward to the day america does.

=^^=
.../\...

:headbang:

Why do people bother to post things that are 100% untrue? America is a democracy Cameroi.

:headbang:

Why do people bother to post things that are 100% untrue? America is a democracy Cameroi.

in what way?

=^^=
.../\...

in what way?

=^^=
.../\...

Um lets see....for starters we have free elections with multiple political parties. We have peaceful transitions of power from one person to the next, regardless of political parties.

:headbang:

Why do people bother to post things that are 100% untrue? America is a democracy Cameroi.

Actually, you're not. You're a republic.

You see, in a democracy, you actually get to vote for your head of state directly. None of that voting for people who will vote for the head of state.

Actually, you're not. You're a republic.

You see, in a democracy, you actually get to vote for your head of state directly. None of that voting for people who will vote for the head of state.

Atually...we're a federal republic. But we are a democarcy.

1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Straight from dictionary.com.

Who cares? It'll all be ocean in a few decades at this rate.

i happy for them. i'm still looking forward to the day america does.

=^^=
.../\...

America is not supposed to be a democracy.

I love Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century,
free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny.
The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on
information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but
the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse
has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would
deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself
your master.

Fascist America, in 10 Easy Steps (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html)

Plus:

Democracy means government of the people.

So is U.S. only inhabited by the CEOs of the military-industrial complex among others? Because otherwise U.S. is definitively not a true democracy. I won't take in consideration the way representative democracies tend to become corporate interests lobbies fest. Like an UN Category of the game says:

Citizens enjoy frequent elections, which are uniformly corrupted by big-spending corporations buying politicians who best suit their interests.

Now about Fiji, promises of Democracy are like nothing. If they wanted to do it instead of lessening international pressure with diplomatic bluffs, they would really do it now

Um lets see....for starters we have free elections with multiple political parties. We have peaceful transitions of power from one person to the next, regardless of political parties.

Free elections held hostage by a two-candidate system where money talks, and where the media doesn't give all viable candidates the same amount of air time. It's a bi-party system. You have only two parties; hardly what I'd call multiple parties.

Free elections held hostage by a two-candidate system where money talks, and where the media doesn't give all viable candidates the same amount of air time. It's a bi-party system. You have only two parties; hardly what I'd call multiple parties.

Um actually...we do have more than two parties its just that the two parties have just encompassed many issues that the other parties stand for.

Who cares?

The people of Fiji. People in neighbouring countries. Every normal, decent human being.

Any other stupid questions?

Um actually...we do have more than two parties its just that the two parties have just encompassed many issues that the other parties stand for.

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot about Republican Lite. :p So there's three parties... well then stop the presses!

[New Zealand] to Fiji: keep it constitutional

Fiji coup leader Commodore Frank Bainimarama cannot make "shonky" changes to Fiji's constitution under the agreement he signed to move his country forward to elections, [New Zealand] Prime Minister Helen Clark says.

Within 24 hours of that agreement being signed, Cmdr Bainimarama was already telling journalists he might change Fiji's constitution before holding elections in 2009.

Under the agreement he signed during a retreat by Pacific Island Forum leaders in Tonga, Cdre Bainimarama committed to holding elections by the first quarter of 2009 and promised his military regime would abide by the result.

Bainimarama is saying he wants to change the Constitution, via referendum, to introduce the principle of "one man, one vote".

(link (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4243515a12.html))

Bainimarama is saying he wants to change the Constitution, via referendum, to introduce the principle of "one man, one vote".

(link (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4243515a12.html))

One man One vote? Sounds good to me.

Yes, your petty and stupid problems are so much more important than the lives of more than 800,000 people who live in Fiji.


Furthermore, if you don't care, don't read the thread.YEAH, who cares about the Bananaramas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eYLhP9u8eU)..

What happened to the Football game?

:D :D :p :D

YEAH, who cares about the Bananaramas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eYLhP9u8eU)..

What happened to the Football game?

:D :D :p :D

New Zealand: 2
Fiji: 0

New Zealand: 2
Fiji: 0haha..

I wonder if they played in NZ without their star Goalie..

anyways, DISCLAIMER : I do care a bout those 800000 human beings.. and to prove it I am going to change my sig..

old sig:

## GO Fiji !!! (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=540447)
new sig:

haha..

Did they play in NZ without their star Goalie?

1 Simione Tamanisau (GK)

If that is their star goalie then yes.

1 Simione Tamanisau (GK)

If that is their star goalie then yes.thanks Corneliu, twice

The Sydney Morning Herald has quite an interesting article:


Fiji has never had a coup like this one. As it turns into a revolution against the country's chiefly and church establishment, Hamish McDonald talks to its leader.

[...] Inside his ramshackle house, Iona [an ordinary indigenous Fijian citizen] grabs clothes from trunks around the furniture-free matting floors, thrusts them into a sports bag, and we set off. Iona introduces himself as a farmer and Methodist lay preacher: "The Holy Spirit has sent you here today," he declares. "Amen. Hallelujah."

[...] Iona talks about how Fiji's big events have affected people like him.

[...] To him and his family, Qarase was a good prime minister. "He helped the poor. When there was flooding, Qarase gave money to replace the houses, and gave a small pension to my father," Iona says. "I don't think he ever steals, but maybe the money he gave out to the poor was not properly put down in the books."

[...] Iona and his family don't like what Bainimarama is doing and don't like the support he is getting from many Indo-Fijians such as Chaudhry, who joined the interim government as finance minister. "Indians are idol worshippers," he says.

They especially don't like the commodore's abrupt dismissal five months ago of the Great Council of Chiefs, the pinnacle of a traditional authority structure nurtured by the British that has some important constitutional powers, notably appointing the head of state, the president.

"He wants to demolish all that system," says cousin Tevita, studying at a Methodist theological college. "He himself does not know what to do," Tevita adds. "He's relying on secret outsiders. They keep texting him on mobile phones and all."

So far, this view from the bottom, with its mix of patronage and conspiracies, hasn't counted much. Bainimarama's obstacles have mostly come from Fiji's institutions - the chiefs' council, the political parties, the legal system, some churches, the mostly Australian-owned newspapers, the human rights groups.

But the day that the grassroots voice will decide has suddenly grown closer, since Bainimarama agreed at a meeting with South Pacific leaders in Tonga on October 17 to hold elections for a new civilian government by the end of March 2009 and to abide by the result.

All settings unaltered, Qarase would probably sweep back in. He remains popular with ethnic Fijians whose vote is given extra weight in Fiji's electoral system. The ousted chiefs and Methodist leaders support him. Despite trawling through the files, Bainimarama's men have not found any corruption to pin on him.

But if Bainimarama has his way the settings will be altered. Pacific leaders pressed him to commit to holding the elections under Fiji's existing constitution and laws, but he didn't. Instead, as Bainimarama spelled out in an interview with the Herald this week, he hopes to sweep away the entire structure of racial-based voting that has ruled Fiji since independence in 1970.

"The countries that are urging us to return to democracy - I don't know if they understand how unfair the system has been over the last 20 or 30 years," Bainimarama says.

"Fijians live in a democracy with a mentality that belongs to the Fijian chiefly system. They decide for us who to vote for, our church talatalas [ministers] decide for us who to vote for. These are the Fijians living in the villages and rural areas. The provincial [chiefly] councils dictate for us who to vote for and we go along with that."

Instead of voters having two votes, one for a general all-races constituency and one for a closed communal constituency, Bainimarama wants a single vote for all in multiracial constituencies.

"The common roll is the way to go," he says. "It takes away the race card."

He hopes the panel he co-chairs with the Catholic Archbishop, Petero Mataca, to draw up a "people's charter" will back this. Communal seats? "I am hoping they will do away with them altogether," he says.

Since most of the commodore's opponents, including the Methodist Church (sometimes called 'the taukei movement at prayer'), are boycotting the charter, there is a fair chance that it will do just that.

As Qarase observed this week, while waiting at his Suva house for a reply to his request for a meeting with the commodore: "I have a feeling that this guy, when he wants something, he must get it right or wrong."

[...] The commodore is equally scornful of the Methodist leadership, whose flock includes 80 per cent of ethnic Fijians and who have rejected the charter, calling for an immediate return to elections.

They had been "sowing the seeds of [racial] hatred" since they backed Rabuka's coup, and were part of a traditional conspiracy of power against ordinary Fijians. "The chiefs, the politicians and the talatalas keep them suppressed so that they can take advantage of them every now and then," Bainimarama says.

He will fight them on Christian principles. "You know it's very easy to tell the people in the villages, who go to church every Sunday, and the first thing you are taught there is love," he says. "And if you don't love your neighbour, what's the use? But they will understand that."

[...] The Methodist Church is not not lying down. Its head of "Christian citizenship", Mamasa Lasaro, says none of Bainimarama's charges against Qarase or the chiefs have been proven. Fiji was no more or less corrupt than any other comparable country.

The church had set up branches for its minority of non-Fijian believers and was trying to engage with a multicultural reality. "We are struggling,' he admits. "But to say we are very racial, we are very communal - it's quite unfair."

Levelling the playing field could take generations, he says. "I think that is a very superficial view by a few army officers," Lasaro says, "because on the ground there is a feeling of insecurity. On one side the Fijians are very insecure about their identity and their destiny in their own country."

The constitution can also fight back, with Qarase's case for reinstatement coming before Fiji's highest court in March. And once it gets to open politics, Qarase's SDL will not hesitate to play the accusation that December was an "Indian coup", with Chaudhry the Machiavelli behind Bainimarama. "He was very much part of the planning process," Qarase says.

[...] Bainimarama throws up his hands at the idea Fijians need "generations" of protection. "They want us to remain in that shell, because they can take advantage of that," he says. "We should come out of this shell and think for ourselves, and do things that are right. And one of them is to recognise that another race is in Fiji. That's the only way forward.

"It's a revolution, but it needs to be done in Fiji … we were heading back into our cannibalistic days. We were going to get rid of the Indians and we would be just left on our own. And that would be worse for everyone."


(link (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rumblings-of-a-revolution/2007/10/26/1192941338637.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1))

What took them so long?

What took them so long?

What took whom so long?

What took whom so long?

I thought the question was simple! Ok...what took the supporters of the ousted racist pm so long to come out of the woodwork and make these statements?

I thought the question was simple! Ok...what took the supporters of the ousted racist pm so long to come out of the woodwork and make these statements?

Oh. It didn't. They've always been saying things like that.

That is all well and good for the people of Fiji, I hope it happens for them as promised, that said. I can top that one.

The Cuban government promises to remain a democracy for life and in order to prove it just held democratic one political party state municipal elections in which according to the Cuban government over 95.44 % of all voters voted and all municipal seats were won by the government.

Also according to the Cuban government a few years ago over 98 % of all voters approved a constitutional amendment petition to declare Cuba's democratic economic, political and social system irrevocable.

Fiji, the people of Fiji and the entire world should have such a democratic system for life.

That is all well and good for the people of Fiji, I hope it happens for them as promised, that said. I can top that one.

The Cuban government promises to remain a democracy for life and in order to prove it just held democratic one political party state municipal elections in which according to the Cuban government over 95.44 % of all voters voted and all municipal seats were won by the government.

Also according to the Cuban government a few years ago over 98 % of all voters approved a constitutional amendment petition to declare Cuba's democratic economic, political and social system irrevocable.

Fiji, the people of Fiji and the entire world should have such a democratic system for life.

I wouldn't be holding up Cuba as a pillar of democracy.

Qarase has made a U-turn on the voting system: he now supports Bainimarama's idea of "one man, one vote". Not because he thinks equality is a jolly nice idea, but because indigenous Fijians have become such a majority that nationalists can now safely support the principle.


DEPOSED Prime Minister, Laisenia Qarase, has come out in favour of the interim government's proposal for a one-man, one-vote electoral system.

Mr Qarase said serious consideration should be given to the proposal.

His comments come after provisional census' figures show that indigenous Fijians now comprise over 57 per cent of the population while ethnic Indians have fallen to 37 per cent.

Under a one-man, one vote electoral system this would ensure that indigenous Fijians will always dominate parliament and the political life of the country.


(link (http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=73503))

The current system of communal voting was designed, under nationalist pressure, to give the indigenous population a numerical advantage in Parliament no matter what. Apparently Qarase thinks that's no longer needed, and they'll be a majority anyway.