NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

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I am thinking about buying a Nuke.

Should I buy an American or a Russian one?

I'm wondering if I would use it, when some criminal is entering my garden, Nuke in its pockets... Yes! I would Nuke the bastard! Hey, he's running on my fresh mowed garden! It's my property! Mine, mine, mine! Kill him!

Hey, it's my right, it's written in my f*cking constitution!

And hell no, my America wouldn't be safer by less Nukes. We are a different culture, we need Nukes!

The NNA (National Nuke Association) says: "Better have a Nuke and not needing one, then having no Nuke when needing one!"

Yeah, yeah, I know there are school kids that bring Nukes to school and destroy the entire state, but the only answer to stop them is...MORE NUKES! Of course!

Outlaw Nukes? Insane. Those disgusting bla... eh criminals will create Nukes by themselves. It's rather easy, on the internet is explained how to do it!

Or they import them illegally. Yes, it's hard to smuggle, but hey, one can make lots of profit...

And btw do you have proof? Do you have proof that Nukes are killing people? Nukes don't kill people, imbecile! It are the people, doh!

So that we British don't go around repressing them, which we'd otherwise do. Yes.

So that we British don't go around repressing them, which we'd otherwise do. Yes.

Is it?

It will be a shock for you, but we are in 2007. The great British Empire, those days are over since a long time.

My little country is on the globe since 180 years. We are not repressed by the British one single time. At least, if I don't count Rod Stewart.

It seems we shouldn't be that afraid of the British anymore.

for the zombies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoXgRtDysLY

no really i don't get why some of them have so many guns

Guns are only useful for shooting things. Thus one would only own a gun if one felt one would need or want to shoot something. Guns which, for whatever reason, cannot be used to shoot things, would only be owned for show, for sentimental value, because they are toys, or possibly because one is a pack rat.

This has been another edition of smart answers to stupid questions.

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.


I live in the USA, have all my life, and I've never owned a gun. I've never particularly wanted to own one.

I suppose if I were living in the woods someplace I would maybe want one for hunting or fending off bears or something, but having lived in cities my entire life I've never seen much point.

Guns are only useful for shooting things. Thus one would only own a gun if one felt one would need or want to shoot something. Guns which, for whatever reason, cannot be used to shoot things, would only be owned for show or sentimental value, or possibly because one is a pack rat.

This has been another edition of smart answers to stupid questions.


And what do you want to shoot? The occasional black guy that would break in, maybe, in...2078 ?

'Cause I don't believe that all those city people take their gun for hunting purposes in the weekend and enter the country.

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

I know if you live in the projects of East New York, there are plenty of reasons why you would want to have a gun in your apartment.

But those people who live in a safe neighborhood, a gun is more of a symbol of power rather than a practical "I am gonna shoot someone" thing.

Guns which, for whatever reason, cannot be used to shoot things, would only be owned for show or sentimental value, or possibly because one is a pack rat.

you never had toy guns?

I live in the USA, have all my life, and I've never owned a gun. I've never particularly wanted to own one.

I suppose if I were living in the woods someplace I would maybe want one for hunting or fending off bears or something, but having lived in cities my entire life I've never seen much point.

Consider yourself as wise people.

I share your points. I would do the same.

I needs my machine gun for me and my mates when a few hundred or so gatecrashers come down upon us, fooled into thinking there will be free beer and whores :p [/sheepishly bad joke]

guns are bad

It seems we shouldn't be that afraid of the British anymore.

you mean your not scared of Hugh Grant? (http://blogs.nypost.com/movies/archives/GrantBeansGOF_468x456.jpg)

he's after our moms :eek:

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.




why do we have to need something to own it?


why do you need a computer? you can survive just fine without one. clearly since a computer can be used for hacking, the only reason to own one is if your gonna hack.

I like guns, I like the noise, the kickback, the smell of powder. please leave them alone.

I know if you live in the projects of East New York, there are plenty of reasons why you would want to have a gun in your apartment.

But those people who live in a safe neighborhood, a gun is more of a symbol of power rather than a practical "I am gonna shoot someone" thing.

I was 3 times in NY. I had no gun with me and I didn't need one as well.

I never was in danger, never saw violent things.
I was in NY in 1992, 1999 and 2004

I didn't stay on the typical tourist 'lanes'.

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

Belgium is considerably different from the U.S. Example: when was the last time Belgium had a war?

And yes, the U.S. has a hell-of-a crime problem. Especially is areas like San Bernardino, Oakland, or D.C. If you live there long enough, chances are strong that you'll be robbed one way or another.

Anyway, aside from that it's quite enjoyable to take guns out to the range. I know a fellow fencer who owns tons of flintlock pistols. Do think they're for home defense? He uses them to fire at targets.

Is it?

It will be a shock for you, but we are in 2007. The great British Empire, those days are over since a long time.

My little country is on the globe since 180 years. We are not repressed by the British one single time. At least, if I don't count Rod Stewart.

It seems we shouldn't be that afraid of the British anymore.

Well, you're a Belgian, so you should be afraid of the French. They did force a union between Belgium and Holland (Netherlands). *nods*

I needs my machine gun for me and my mates when a few hundred or so gatecrashers come down upon us, fooled into thinking there will be free beer and whores :p [/sheepishly bad joke]

What was your address again? :)

you never had toy guns?

Damn, so close.

*goes to edit*

for the zombies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoXgRtDysLY

no really i don't get why some of them have so many guns

That clip is extremely well put together.

Belgium is considerably different from the U.S. Example: when was the last time Belgium had a war?

Inside the country? The last one was in 1945. And in USA? When was the last war going on INSIDE your country?



And yes, the U.S. has a hell-of-a crime problem. Especially is areas like San Bernardino, Oakland, or D.C. If you live there long enough, chances are strong that you'll be robbed one way or another.

Anyway, aside from that it's quite enjoyable to take guns out to the range. I know a fellow fencer who owns tons of flintlock pistols. Do think they're for home defense? He uses them to fire at targets.


Maybe there's a correlation between crime and guns, no?

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I was 3 times in NY. I had no gun with me and I didn't need one as well.

I never was in danger, never saw violent things.
I was in NY in 1992, 1999 and 2004

I didn't stay on the typical tourist 'lanes'.

In b4 'anecdotal evidence proves nothing'

Well, you're a Belgian, so you should be afraid of the French. They did force a union between Belgium and Holland (Netherlands). *nods*


Nah. They are already 'boss' in Europe. Together with the Germans, they do what they want in the EG. More or less.

In b4 'anecdotal evidence proves nothing'

I believe that NY is pretty safe. I was in Johannesburg as well. That's another animal.

And how many times did you met a burglar face-to-face inside your home?

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !



My gun: http://www.stortz.ca/t3/index.php?id=79

:D

Inside the country? The last one was in 1945. And in USA? When was the last war going on INSIDE your country?

That would have to be during the Civil War. I don't what "inside" has to do with it exactly. I'm merely trying to show one country is more aggressive, and tends toward violence. We're like the modern Mongolians.



Maybe there's a correlation between crime and guns, no?

I think not. If guns were banned, muggers and burglars would just use knives or...*gasp* swords! Say, that would be fun! "En Garde you sniveling buffoon! Prepare for perforation!" "Ahhh!"

Man, a fencer's dream come-true. ;)

And how many times did you met a burglar face-to-face inside your home?

And how many times did your plane crash? Ergo, throw away the parachutes!

I tend to agree with the OP. I have never been the victim of crime as far as I can remember, in any way, much less a direct physical assault. And I've also never even seen a gun in RL. Then again I know the US is a bit more of a shit hole than here, and maybe it's a big enough shit hole that everyone needs a gun. Not that more stringent gun control laws would hurt.

I think not. If guns were banned, muggers and burglars would just use knives or...*gasp* swords! Say, that would be fun! "En Garde you sniveling buffoon! Prepare for perforation!" "Ahhh!"

Man, a fencer's dream come-true. ;)

Of course not. There can be no logical connection between the availability of guns and the level of gun related crime.
:rolleyes:

I was 3 times in NY. I had no gun with me and I didn't need one as well.

I never was in danger, never saw violent things.
I was in NY in 1992, 1999 and 2004

I didn't stay on the typical tourist 'lanes'.

Not New York, EAST New York. Somehow I got a feeling you never been to that part of Brooklyn.

Of course not. There can be no logical connection between the availability of guns and the level of gun related crime.
:rolleyes:

What precisely, are you trying to say?

That would have to be during the Civil War. I don't what "inside" has to do with it exactly. I'm merely trying to show one country is more aggressive, and tends toward violence. We're like the modern Mongolians.


Mongolians? :)

Are Americans worse as the Nazi Germans in WWII?




I think not. If guns were banned, muggers and burglars would just use knives or...*gasp* swords! Say, that would be fun! "En Garde you sniveling buffoon! Prepare for perforation!" "Ahhh!"

Man, a fencer's dream come-true. ;)


** BREAKING NEWS **

Another school-slasher killed - no one - in a high school in Orlando. Before he could use his sword, people demobilised him.

According the sheriff it has all to do with the violent historical behaviour. Once we were fierce knights conquering the land from the Indians and now - we are bored.

And how many times did your plane crash? Ergo, throw away the parachutes!

Yes; there are no parachutes in a modern airline carrier. Good example!

That clip is extremely well put together.

put together :confused:

And how many times did your plane crash? Ergo, throw away the parachutes!

erm...I don't think commercial airlines have parachutes

I tend to agree with the OP. I have never been the victim of crime as far as I can remember, in any way, much less a direct physical assault. And I've also never even seen a gun in RL. Then again I know the US is a bit more of a shit hole than here, and maybe it's a big enough shit hole that everyone needs a gun. Not that more stringent gun control laws would hurt.

I was in several US cities. I even visited 'dangerous' parts of Miami and NY.

Nothing happened.

Not New York, EAST New York. Somehow I got a feeling you never been to that part of Brooklyn.

Is Times Square Brooklyn?

And is Central Park not around the corner?

Is Times Square Brooklyn?

And is Central Park not around the corner?

No, East New York is the Government Housing Projects down at E100th street, between the border of Brooklyn and Queens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_New_York

What precisely, are you trying to say?

Ooh sorry was I too cryptic for you?

Why are the levels of gun related crime per head of population in (for example) Wales not as high as in (for example) the USA?

Could it be
1: The peaceful nature of the Welsh
2: The widespread tradition of close harmony male voice choirs in Wales
3: The higher average level of Church attendance in the USA
4: The easy availability of guns in the USA
5: er
6: That's about it

I have lived all over the world my whole life. Just because your area is safe one minute doesn't mean it will be in the future. I am 22 years old and I own a hand gun and I keep it just in case someone wants to put me in danger. I live in a very nice area of northern Virginia (near Washington D.C.) and I don't plan on ever using this gun on someone unless I have to. It is my 2nd amendment right to own a gun and I don't see anything wrong with someone owning one and using it it in a safe manner.

:mp5::sniper::gundge:

I believe that NY is pretty safe. I was in Johannesburg as well. That's another animal.

And how many times did you met a burglar face-to-face inside your home?

Wouldn't happen more than once.

Mongolians? :)

Are Americans worse as the Nazi Germans in WWII?

Not in death-toll itself, but I know in WWII before America dropped the A-bomb, we bombed the heck of of Japanese civilians with incendiaries. It got so bad, pilots had to wear oxygen masks to filter-out the stench of burning flesh.

And then we dropped the A-bombs. Total Japanese civilian deaths: 235,000. Not even close to Hitler's high score. Still....



** BREAKING NEWS **

Another school-slasher killed - no one - in a high school in Orlando. Before he could use his sword, people demobilised him.

According the sheriff it has all to do with the violent historical behaviour. Once we were fierce knight conquering the land from the Indians and now - we are bored.

Knights? No, no dear fellow.



DUELLISTS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Duellists)!

http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/medias/nmedia/18/36/31/99/18472369.jpg




Anyway, yeah, It'd be fun. Some punk bothers me, and "en garde".

Well, it's possible that one might own a gun for the purposes of sport hunting or pest control, although if I owned one it would be for competitive target shooting, or perhaps it would be the heirloom rifle my parents own, simply for the sentimental value. Probably one of the nice S&W competition models, a precise device requiring gentle care and regular maintenance.

No, East New York is the Government Housing Projects down at E100th street, between the border of Brooklyn and Queens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_New_York

But Times Squares and Central Park are located in Brooklyn.

I can't remember if I was in that specific spot, I mean East NY.

But I do remember that I was in Harlem. I believe it's also famous for its crime rates.

I saw weird stuff over there, but no crimes. I didn't need a gun and I felt very safe. I'm white btw.

My gun: http://www.stortz.ca/t3/index.php?id=79

:D

OMG, I'm totally going to give my (hypothetical) girlfriend herpes (http://www.stortz.ca/t3/index.php?id=33)!

Wouldn't happen more than once.

why?

I don't plan on ever using this gun on someone unless I have to.

That must be a comfort to your neighbours :rolleyes:

Well, I suppose I don't need a gun. I happen to want one, but that's another matter.

I want to own a gun to shoot it. Target shooting. I intend to buy a bolt action rifle, so it's not exactly the sort of weapon suitable for home defence from an intruder (although if I was sitting on a hilltop I could get him from the best part of a mile away).

So I guess it's mostly that I want to own a gun for the enjoyment of shooting one.

That would have to be during the Civil War. I don't what "inside" has to do with it exactly. I'm merely trying to show one country is more aggressive, and tends toward violence. We're like the modern Mongolians.





I think not. If guns were banned, muggers and burglars would just use knives or...*gasp* swords! Say, that would be fun! "En Garde you sniveling buffoon! Prepare for perforation!" "Ahhh!"

Man, a fencer's dream come-true. ;)

Guns are easy to build, and I'm fair certain crime existed before guns.

OMG, I'm totally going to give my (hypothetical) girlfriend herpes (http://www.stortz.ca/t3/index.php?id=33)!



why?

Small town, the story of a would be thief being disemboweled might dissuade others.

I have lived all over the world my whole life. Just because your area is safe one minute doesn't mean it will be in the future. I am 22 years old and I own a hand gun and I keep it just in case someone wants to put me in danger. I live in a very nice area of northern Virginia (near Washington D.C.) and I don't plan on ever using this gun on someone unless I have to. It is my 2nd amendment right to own a gun and I don't see anything wrong with someone owning one and using it it in a safe manner.

:mp5::sniper::gundge:

Ok, how many times you already needed that gun? Let me guess: zero...

But 'cause *everybody* is acting like an afraid weasel too many guns are on the market. Guns that could be stolen or just picked up by your children.

Ooh sorry was I too cryptic for you?

Why are the levels of gun related crime per head of population in (for example) Wales not as high as in (for example) the USA?

Could it be
1: The peaceful nature of the Welsh
2: The widespread tradition of close harmony male voice choirs in Wales
3: The higher average level of Church attendance in the USA
4: The easy availability of guns in the USA
5: er
6: That's about it

I think you had this argument beautifully set-out, but directed it at the wrong person. When did I ever say that banning guns wouldn't stop gun-related crime?

That must be a comfort to your neighbours :rolleyes:


My neighbors should be very comforted in the fact that I know how to handle a weapon and I wouldn't use it on anyone that wasn't trying to end my life. If someone came at me with a bat or something that I could defend myself against I wouldn't be quick to shoot them. I also have a black belt in 3 types of self defense arts and I am very capable of defending myself without shooting someone. On the other hand if someone comes in my house and I have my gun on me and they have one also well then it's a fair fight. I think it's funny how people automatically assume that because one owns a gun they don't know how to handle it in a safe manner and they are going to pew pew the first thing that comes into their domicile without any warning.

Wouldn't happen more than once.

burglars kill people now?

hint: if your in a hostile environment like someones house and you get caught the reaction is to shit your pants and panic, hence why bad things happen when people start getting silly

Ok, how many times you already needed that gun? Let me guess: zero...

But 'cause *everybody* is acting like an afraid weasel too many guns are on the market. Guns that could be stolen or just picked up by your children.

Attribution Error. Not everyone owns a gun because they're scared, in fact, likely that's only a tiny minority of the people who own guns.

But Times Squares and Central Park are located in Brooklyn.

I can't remember if I was in that specific spot, I mean East NY.

But I do remember that I was in Harlem. I believe it also famous for its crime rates.

I saw weird stuff over there, but no crimes. I didn't need a gun and I felt very safe. I'm white btw.

If you think Times Square and Central Park is where Brooklyn is, then you don't know where Brooklyn is.

It's never a good idea to argue with the locals about the directions of their home city, wouldn't you agree?

Harlem really isn't that bad anymore, I agree with that.

Is it?

It will be a shock for you, but we are in 2007. The great British Empire, those days are over since a long time.

My little country is on the globe since 180 years. We are not repressed by the British one single time. At least, if I don't count Rod Stewart.

It seems we shouldn't be that afraid of the British anymore.
I was joking ;)

"I rather have it and not need it; than need it and not have it."

Also some people collect coins, some swords, some guns.

On top of that you ask why Americans might want guns? Have you seen the downward spiral of the American govt. lately?

I have guns. Two were hand me downs/inheritance and one I use to shoot at the shooting range. So, I guess, I have them for sentimental value and to shoot things (basically what Ifreann said)

Small town, the story of a would be thief being disemboweled might dissuade others.

So you would disembowel somebody because they broke into your house?

Ok, how many times you already needed that gun? Let me guess: zero...

But 'cause *everybody* is acting like an afraid weasel too many guns are on the market. Guns that could be stolen or just picked up by your children.

Better safe than sorry I say . . . I have pulled my weapon out twice in my life in a defense manner situation. I have never fired it but I have aimed it at someone in order to deter them from bringing on damage. One time was at the scene of a car accident I was in and the guy who hit me came out with a knife. I happened to be coming back from the shooting range and I pulled out my gun. The gun was empty but the fact that I had it made him think twice before coming at me with a knife. The 2nd time I was victim of someone breaking into my apartment (in my old building) 4 months ago.

If you're so against guns then don't get one. If someone breaks into your house and you have no defense then I'm sorry for you if anything happens, but don't judge others because they want to protect themselves.

And your sentence about kids getting hands on them well thats why we keep them locked up. And someone of age 13 can go to the bad of the inner-city and get easier then they can steal mine.

So you would disembowel somebody because they broke into your house?

Perfectly within my legal right to do so. Sometimes redneck law is fun. Although it would be very messy, and I have carpeting. Decisions decisions.

OMG, I'm totally going to give my (hypothetical) girlfriend herpes (http://www.stortz.ca/t3/index.php?id=33)!



why?

http://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/files/images/productdetails/herpes.jpg

Bears a striking resemblance to a smilie. :)

Perfectly within my legal right to do so. Sometimes redneck law is fun. Although it would be very messy, and I have carpeting. Decisions decisions.

do it in the bathtub. *nod*

Attribution Error. Not everyone owns a gun because they're scared, in fact, likely that's only a tiny minority of the people who own guns.

So why do they (the majority)?

EDIT
That wasn't meant to sound condescending, I genuinely would like to know.

I think you had this argument beautifully set-out, but directed it at the wrong person. When did I ever say that banning guns wouldn't stop gun-related crime?

That's a shame, I was particularly proud of blaming gun crime on the lack of male voice choirs in the Bronx:D

http://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/files/images/productdetails/herpes.jpg

Bears a striking resemblance to a smilie. :)

further proof for the fact that STD's are fun.

Belgium is considerably different from the U.S. Example: when was the last time Belgium had a war?
The last occupation of Belgium by hostile forces lasted until 1945.

The last land occupation of the US by hostile forces was, what, 1813ish?

The Belgians have far more of a reason to own weapons than the US, what with them being neighboured by a fair few countries that have been invaders in the not-too-distant past.

But let's not have common sense ruin your argument, eh?

The last occupation of Belgium by hostile forces lasted until 1945.

The last land occupation of the US by hostile forces was, what, 1813ish?

The Belgians have far more of a reason to own weapons than the US, what with them being neighboured by a fair few countries that have been invaders in the not-too-distant past.

But let's not have common sense ruin your argument, eh?

1813ish is wrong. It would have to be 1864ish. Anyhoo, the Belgians might require a gun more defensively speaking, but U.S. is an aggressive nation. We're invading nations left and right. Ergo, we like our guns more.

Because guns are fun. At least I find them fun, so I shoot them. And whatever happens to be in front of the gun, like chickens. Or coyotes. Or a car...

So why do they (the majority)?

EDIT
That wasn't meant to sound condescending, I genuinely would like to know.

Ah, well a large portion of the gun-owning population participates in hunting (either for food or for herd size control), others participate in competitive shooting events, others merely target or trap shoot for entertainment and still others collect guns, as heirlooms or for their historic significance.

For example, because I'm a poor college student, so I rent a pistol at my university's pistol target club for $25 a quarter so I can practice target shooting, for both potential competitive purposes in the future, and just as a stress reliever. Target shooting requires a good quantity of control and discipline, and that element of it makes it more desirable for me to do. If I weren't a poor college student, I'd probably buy a gun for that same purpose, and keep it at the range.

I don't need one, I don't want one, and I don't ever plan to buy one.

However, as a liberal *gasp*, I support peoples' rights to gun ownership.

Ah, well a large portion of the gun-owning population participates in hunting (either for food or for herd size control), others participate in competitive shooting events, others merely target or trap shoot for entertainment and still others collect guns, as heirlooms or for their historic significance.

Over 50% of American homes own guns, do they really own them for these reasons? Is it really just a "tiny minority" who buys them out of fear (safety purposes)? I'd like to believe you, but can you cite anything to put my mind at ease?

Perfectly within my legal right to do so. Sometimes redneck law is fun. Although it would be very messy, and I have carpeting. Decisions decisions.

Does redneck law also allow the raping of intruders? Just curious.

1813ish is wrong. It would have to be 1864ish.
Right, and you know what would have made your civil war oh so much less bloody?

People generally not having guns in such vast quantities.
Anyhoo, defensively the Belgians might require a gun more defensively speaking
Which is basically the only legitimate reason to have one, and even then, having a professional army is much better idea than a bunch of civilians fairly armed to the teeth.
but U.S. is an aggressive nation. We're invading nations left and right. Ergo, we like our guns more.
Yes. Hence why you shouldn't have them.

I don't need one, I don't want one, and I don't ever plan to buy one.

However, as a liberal *gasp*, I support peoples' rights to gun ownership.

Then you're a proper liberal, or a "classical liberal", like myself.

Does redneck law also allow the raping of intruders? Just curious.

I doubt you could claim that as self defense. Though I must say the whole guns as home defense argument doesn't really wash these days. Get a dog and a security system.

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

No you're not. You're looking to start an argument. The way you phrase your post makes it obvious there's no way you will never change your mind.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I was 3 times in NY. I had no gun with me and I didn't need one as well.

I never was in danger, never saw violent things.
I was in NY in 1992, 1999 and 2004

I didn't stay on the typical tourist 'lanes'.

Two things here: One, anectodal evidence proves nothing. If you want to go with anectodes, I could say some friends of mine just got robbed two weeks ago. Three guys just knocked on the door, pushed their way in and started grabbing stuff. Had there been a firearm in the apartment, I guarantee it would have turned out different. But, again, anectodal evidence proves nothing.

Two, as others have pointed out, you haven't been to the worst parts of New York. I doubt you've spent a night in these parts, and I can guarantee you've never spent a week or a month there. You are no more qualified to speak about firearm ownership in the US than I am about ownership in Belgium.

Guns are only useful for shooting things. Thus one would only own a gun if one felt one would need or want to shoot something. Guns which, for whatever reason, cannot be used to shoot things, would only be owned for show, for sentimental value, because they are toys, or possibly because one is a pack rat.

This has been another edition of smart answers to stupid questions.

Once more, for emphasis.

Right, and you know what would have made your civil war oh so much less bloody?

People generally not having guns in such vast quantities.

Hey, it's not my fault. Technology had advanced that far already. You could've tried to convince Napoleon not to use guns in his wars, I doubt it'd work. Do you seriously think someone could have stopped the U.S. from making guns then? If your country is invaded, and someone says "here, swords are less bloody" you would laugh.

Which is basically the only legitimate reason to have one, and even then, having a professional army is much better idea than a bunch of civilians fairly armed to the teeth.


There are plenty of legitimate reasons to own firearms. Please review this thread.

Yes. Hence why you shouldn't have them.

Ah, but we do! And as long as Americans own guns, other Americans are going to want guns of their own to protect themselves from fellow lunatics.

I have a .22 semi-automatic rifle, a handgun and a 12 gauge shotgun. The rifle and shotgun are for protection in the home. Why not use police, because police in the USA are not like the one in the UK, they don't come right this second. So for the police to be used as protection is pretty much pointless, in the USA, they're mainly there to clean up. As for the handgun, protection outside the home, I have a CCW permit.

You need a gun to shoot other people with guns. Or shoot delicous animals. Or rob people. Or to shoot robbers.

Guns are versitile, I'm sure you can think of some reason to own a gun. They're fun.

Guns are easy to build, and I'm fair certain crime existed before guns.

Indeed. I don't think Genghis Khan had too-many guns at his disposal. Yet he managed to cause 40,000,000 deaths.

I have a .22 semi-automatic rifle, a handgun and a 12 gauge shotgun. The rifle and shotgun are for protection in the home. Why not use police, because police in the USA are not like the one in the UK, they don't come right this second. So for the police to be used as protection is pretty much pointless, in the USA, they're mainly there to clean up. As for the handgun, protection outside the home, I have a CCW permit.

I'm not trying to argue any position but this made me laugh

I'm not trying to argue any position but this made me laugh

Hey, everytime this subject comes up, someone from the other side of the pond always ask me why I just don't rely on police when someone decides to break into my home, and that's why. Police response time here is 30 minutes after a call.

Now for the burger to break in, find out that I am already armed with my shotgun (cocked and ready to be fired), and then decide to bolt before I decide to fill his ass with pellets. 1 to 5 minutes.

Hey, everytime this subject comes up, someone from the other side of the pond always ask me why I just don't rely on police when someone decides to break into my home, and that's why. Police response time here is 30 minutes after a call.

Now for the burger to break in, find out that I am already armed with my shotgun (cocked and ready to be fired), and then decide to bolt before I decide to fill his ass with pellets. 1 to 5 minutes.

Yeah, calling the police is a like having a "dial-up" connection.

Hey, everytime this subject comes up, someone from the other side of the pond always ask me why I just don't rely on police when someone decides to break into my home, and that's why. Police response time here is 30 minutes after a call.


No-one ever said no-one lies or exaggerates

No-one ever said no-one lies

That's the British for you. Using Bill Clinton, G.W. Bush, and George Costanza as role-models.

That's the British for you. Using Bill Clinton, G.W. Bush, and George Costanza as role-models.

Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say 'Everybody lies, including the British'

Hey, everytime this subject comes up, someone from the other side of the pond always ask me why I just don't rely on police when someone decides to break into my home, and that's why. Police response time here is 30 minutes after a call.

Now for the burger to break in, find out that I am already armed with my shotgun (cocked and ready to be fired), and then decide to bolt before I decide to fill his ass with pellets. 1 to 5 minutes.

And yet the thing I still find hard to believe is that with these viscious Burgers roaming the land so many people are opposed to gun ownership.
Just think about it next time you read about someone being attacked in their own home by a Double Whopper with Cheese.
:D

Seriously though, are there any figures showing how many US citizens are killed each year by accident with their own weaponry, and by comparison how many marauding fast food meals are killed or wounded in self defence?
I'm prepared to accept KFC as well if it makes the figures look better.

I have a .22 semi-automatic rifle, a handgun and a 12 gauge shotgun. The rifle and shotgun are for protection in the home. Why not use police, because police in the USA are not like the one in the UK, they don't come right this second. So for the police to be used as protection is pretty much pointless, in the USA, they're mainly there to clean up. As for the handgun, protection outside the home, I have a CCW permit.
Yeah, erm, our UK police are also pretty crap. On the other hand, you're very, very unlikely to get shot or anything, so you hardly really need them.
Hey, it's not my fault. Technology had advanced that far already. You could've tried to convince Napoleon not to use guns in his wars, I doubt it'd work.
Professional armies are sound to have weapons. Randoms not.
Do you seriously think someone could have stopped the U.S. from making guns then?
The issue was more to do with the existing massive stock of weapons and ammunition that were lying around.

Without that, perhaps it wouldn't have got off of the ground so much.
If your country is invaded, and someone says "here, swords are less bloody" you would laugh.
Well yes.

However having weapons only around in a trained army leads to less dangerous civil wars.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to own firearms. Please review this thread.
No, all I really see is "because it's fun" and "because guns have made EVERYONE ELSE into a hick, so I need to protect myself by also owning a gun".
Ah, but we do! And as long as Americans own guns, other Americans are going to want guns of their own to protect themselves from fellow lunatics.
Yes, quite.

And yet the thing I still find hard to believe is that with these viscious Burgers roaming the land so many people are opposed to gun ownership.
Just think about it next time you read about someone being attacked in their own home by a Double Whopper with Cheese.
:D

Seriously though, are there any figures showing how many US citizens are killed each year by accident with their own weaponry, and by comparison how many marauding fast food meals are killed or wounded in self defence?
I'm prepared to accept KFC as well if it makes the figures look better.

My brother shot himself in the hand with a 9mm pistol. I still haven't figured out how the hell he pulled that off.

My brother shot himself in the hand with a 9mm pistol. I still haven't figured out how the hell he pulled that off.

I shot myself in the hand with a replica 9mm BB gun does that count?

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

well said

Hey, everytime this subject comes up, someone from the other side of the pond always ask me why I just don't rely on police when someone decides to break into my home, and that's why. Police response time here is 30 minutes after a call.


The cops respond that fast? The only way I have ever heard of to get that quick of response is to tell them you already shot the guy and whenever they get the chance they can come clean up the mess.

My brother shot himself in the hand with a 9mm pistol. I still haven't figured out how the hell he pulled that off.

I shot myself in the hand with a replica 9mm BB gun does that count?

Were either of these two fast food related?

If I make a Drive Thru shooting joke will I be banned from the board?

Were either of these two fast food related?

If I make a Drive Thru shooting joke will I be banned from the board?
I'd give you a prize for doing so!

Professional armies are sound to have weapons. Randoms not.

You're referring to people like the marauders? Well, a lot of them killed soldiers and took their guns, so banning sales wouldn't work.

The issue was more to do with the existing massive stock of weapons and ammunition that were lying around.

Without that, perhaps it wouldn't have got off of the ground so much.


I don't know if a "massive stockpile" was lying around. They were made. Didn't you notice that the South had superior generals, and lost fewer men per battle? But because the North could depend on machines (as opposed to slaves) they won. Their soldiers were more often equipped with, uniforms, shoes, and yes, guns.

Well yes.

However having weapons only around in a trained army leads to less dangerous civil wars.

I don't see a "Civil War" happening over in Britain, or Belgium. If one happens in the U.S., it''ll probably be needed.

No, all I really see is "because it's fun" and "because guns have made EVERYONE ELSE into a hick, so I need to protect myself by also owning a gun".

Guns are fun, yes. Swords are also fun. that doesn't mean I go around stabbing people with mine. Weapons are just enjoyable.

Yes, quite.

*BANG*

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

I have a gun because I'm a former police officer and I've grown fond of target practice as a skill and hobby. I also used to live far out of the city limits and have had my house broken into many many times. I had no close neighbors and the cops were 40 min away minimum. My neighbor was nearly kidnapped when she was riding her bike by a well dressed man who ran her off the road.

I'm a single female. There's no way I could over power a male intruder.

Hey, everytime this subject comes up, someone from the other side of the pond always ask me why I just don't rely on police when someone decides to break into my home, and that's why. Police response time here is 30 minutes after a call.

That's a shame. What's the fire response / ambulance like?

At least here where I live it used to be fifteen minutes at the most (for a fire response).

Now for the burger to break in,


I like my burgers with goat cheese in the middle, some chili here and there, onions, tomato, mayo, other kinds of dressing, salad and two hot buns!


Sorry...

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !
While defense against household burglary is certain one possible use, it's hardly the only use. (And I would caution against using your own personal experiences to advise policy for another country when you have no experience with it.)

The 2nd Amendment gave us the right to own firearms as a check against the military and the power of the government. Obviously with the current military technology that's a little harder--if ever we had to do it we'd be reduced mostly to guerrilla warfare, much like the Iraqi resistance fighters--though we'd likely have at least some people in the military join our side.

Anyway, that's the main reason, to serve as a check against the government's power, and it's something very sensible in my mind. If all else fails, if the government turns into a dictatorship, we have the power to force it to change back to a republic. Even if that was the only possible reason for owning a firearm I would NEVER give that up, because that check, that ability, is far too precious.

Also, they can be used for hunting, and self-defense of many types--not just against burglaries. Plus, there are people who like to hone their skills by going to shooting ranges, and I'm sure there's a few other legitimate uses, like, say, Mythbuster's testing or what have you.

Are they also used for criminal purposes? Of course. Can they be used to harm others? Certainly. But we don't prevent that by trying to get rid of them, since you couldn't no matter what you try to do. For 230 years this country has allowed its citizens to own firearms and that allowance has created so many guns that you'd never get rid of them even if you tried.

All that said, I am most definitely for sensible gun control legislation intended to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally unstable and criminals. Law-abiding citizens may freely own them, however, as far as I am concerned, though anyone who purchases one should be required to take a gun safety and gun usage class, so they know what they're doing. Yes, I know that's training people, but believe you me, someone who knows what they're doing with a firearm is a hell of a lot safer than one who doesn't, because accidents with firearms kill a lot of people every year.

Oh, and I'd like to add a regulation about keeping them safely in the house, but sadly that's not enforceable unless we want to give up fundamental rights that I am not prepared to give up for any reason whatsoever.

I like my burgers with goat cheese in the middle, some chili here and there, onions, tomato, mayo, other kinds of dressing, salad and two hot buns!


Sorry...

Crime does actually exist, contrary to what you think. My Mum was robbed several times, one time she was severally injured. Her scalp had to be sown-up, and she had a bit of amnesia for a while. The robber didn't have a gun, but unfortunately, neither did she....

That's a shame. What's the fire response / ambulance like?

At least here where I live it used to be fifteen minutes at the most (for a fire response).

it depends on the area, and what's wrong with you. In my area, the fire department will show up about 20 minutes after you call, when I didn't live in the inner city, it was about 30-40 minutes, it just takes a while to get anywhere here.

the ambulance came in less than 3 minutes a few weeks ago when my daughter was unconscious....but we were probably pretty high on the list of emergencies.

Police response varies.....when someone was actively breaking into my house a few years back and I was home alone.....they showed up 40 minutes later....when it happened again in the same house and the guy didn't go away and I had to hit him in the head with a baseball bat and he was unconscious the ambulance showed up for him about 10 minutes later......the police showed up 30 minutes after that.


The police have told me many times "we aren't here to save you" they only arrest people, you are pretty much supposed to protect yourself.

You're referring to people like the marauders? Well, a lot of them killed soldiers and took their guns, so banning sales wouldn't work.
Erm, no.

I mean "it's fine to have a properly trained and equipped force, but having random people owning guns can be a huge issue.
I don't know if a "massive stockpile" was lying around. They were made.
Pretty sure people took the whole second amendment thing pretty seriously in the south and north, too.
Didn't you notice that the South had superior generals, and lost fewer men per battle? But because the North could depend on machines (as opposed to slaves) they won. Their soldiers were more often equipped with, uniforms, shoes, and yes, guns.
Sorry, what?

Where did I dispute that?
I don't see a "Civil War" happening over in Britain, or Belgium.
Yeah. Because they're not filled with overly macho men, with a culture that glorifies weapon ownage.
If one happens in the U.S., it''ll probably be needed.
... Yeah, probably, due to the above statement. *sighs*
Guns are fun, yes. Swords are also fun. that doesn't mean I go around stabbing people with mine. Weapons are just enjoyable.
...
*BANG*
...

The police have told me many times "we aren't here to save you" they only arrest people, you are pretty much supposed to protect yourself.

Just so. And ever since they came-out with that crummy movie, nobody wants Superman's help anymore.

Because most Americans today live in fear (IMO)
I'd like to have a gun with me, 'specially if some crazy decides to try and pull some stunt.
It's preventative measure.

I like my burgers with goat cheese in the middle, some chili here and there, onions, tomato, mayo, other kinds of dressing, salad and two hot buns!


Sorry...

I refer my honourable friend to the joke I made earlier:p

Why does thread starter need computer?

When did this become about needing things? I see this weird line of thinking with regards to cigarettes too. "Why do you need to smoke cigarettes?" As if nothing is legal, acceptable, or understandable unless it is *necessary* in some arbitrarily high survivalist-based rating system of human activities.

Yeah. Because they're not filled with overly macho men, with a culture that glorifies weapon ownage.


Yes, because that was clearly a huge reason for the Civil War. It can't have been the different economic points of view and the belief by the Southerners that the North wanted to take away their slaves and destroy what economy they had going. Oh, no, it was because they were all "macho men" with their big guns and just HAD to show them off. :rolleyes:

Please, Yootopia. You're a hell of a lot smarter than that, so don't insult your own intelligence by spouting such nonsense.

If you're so against guns then don't get one. If someone breaks into your house and you have no defense then I'm sorry for you if anything happens, but don't judge others because they want to protect themselves.

I agree with that entirely and I'd like to add a bit more. Don't own a gun unless you are going to learn how to use it and learn gun safety.

Erm, no.

I mean "it's fine to have a properly trained and equipped force, but having random people owning guns can be a huge issue.

Just about all the deaths in the Civil War were caused by marauders, or soldiers. I don't think there was a huge rise in gunfights between civilians back then.

Pretty sure people took the whole second amendment thing pretty seriously in the south and north, too.

Da, da.

Sorry, what?

Where did I dispute that?

I'm saying most of the guns used in the Civil War were made after it started. Ergo, this "stockpile" you're talking about, didn't exist.

Yeah. Because they're not filled with overly macho men, with a culture that glorifies weapon ownage.

Weapons are fun to collect. If any nation forced me to not own weapons, I couldn't live in it. Cars get way more people killed then guns. So we should ban cars except for ambulances?
... Yeah, probably, due to the above statement. *sighs*

No, probably due to an idiotic government.

...
Very, um...
...

...Zen.

1) For he enjoyment of learning and practicing the skill of arms.

2) For the protection of my life

3) For my duty as an able bodied man to keep and bear arms, in accordance with my fundamental rights as a free person.

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" Freud

On a philosophical level, I have absolutely no obligation to justify my possession of firearms.

On a practical level, I use them for hunting, and for defense, and for the same that you have insurance...because you never know, and it's better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

On a philosophical level, I have absolutely no obligation to justify my possession of firearms.

On a practical level, I use them for hunting, and for defense, and for the same that you have insurance...because you never know, and it's better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

I nominate him for "Winner" of this thread.

I agree with that entirely and I'd like to add a bit more. Don't own a gun unless you are going to learn how to use it and learn gun safety.

I agree with your statement as well. My father is retired Marine Corps and he was the first one to teach me how to use a gun safely. I have also taken 2 safety courses before and after buying my firearm. I feel I am will trained in how to properly use a gun and therefore am not a threat to anyone because I own one. I don't feel I have a quick trigger finger and will shoot anything that comes into my home. I also don't feel for any reason someone will get a hold of my gun without me handing it to them (I.E. no kids will get my gun). This is the way every responsible gun owner should be in my opinion.

Let me put it this way. Should you ever encounter a thief, be it in your home or on the street, you can call the police and they'll get there and they'll take a picture of your corpse and start looking for your killer. Or you can wait for your chance and pull the trigger.

The Swiss government actually arms every man with an assault rifle. Why do they do that? Because they are expected to fight should the need arise.

Maybe there's a correlation between crime and guns, no?

Well, sort of. Washington DC has the toughest gun laws in the nation, but it also has one of the highest crime rates, too. On the other side of the Potomac River, Virginia is one of the easiest jurisdictions in the country to legally obtain a firearm, yet crime rates are significantly lower. Thankfully, DC's gun laws have been challenged in the courts, and DC has already lost in the lower courts.

The ability for law-abiding citizens to legally purchase firearms has been shown to lead to a decrease in the crime rate.

It's my understanding that in the UK, for example, where it is practically impossible to legally buy a gun, home invasions are a fairly common occurence. They're quite rare in the US, especially in places like Texas or Montana, where a significant percentage of people have a gun in the home. Pulling a home invasion in Texas is an incredibly risky proposition.

So, self-defense is a common reason to own a gun. But there are millions of Americans, especially in rural areas, who hunt and/or target shoot.

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

Why should I need anything that I want to own? A house, nice clothing, a fuel efficient car?

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

That is very nice for you, I hope you are never forcefully robbed or assualted.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.
So? Why should this prevent people from owning a firearm?
It hasn't prevented me from learning a martial art.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.
Not everyone is the 'average' 'USian', not everyone will never meet a burglar. Plus, this has nothing to do with owning a firearm.

Still, why do they need such guns?
Because they want to own one, it is legal to own one, so they get one. How is that hard to understand?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !
Owning a gun =/= fear of anything. I learned a martial art out of pure interest and to further my physical health. Owning a gun is most likely purely out of interest of owning a gun. I don't know anyone who thinks one day: "OMG OMG what if like someone like might ya know! rob me!? OMG I better get a gun! Holy crap!".

Right, and you know what would have made your civil war oh so much less bloody?

People generally not having guns in such vast quantities.

Which is basically the only legitimate reason to have one, and even then, having a professional army is much better idea than a bunch of civilians fairly armed to the teeth.

Yes. Hence why you shouldn't have them.

Really? Well then somebody better tell that to the millions of Africans that are currently being slaughtered due to genocide and civil war by machette and clubs and the millions of people that have been displaced from thier homes and villages all by people carrying predominantly woodaxes, machettes and clubs.

It's my understanding that in the UK, for example, where it is practically impossible to legally buy a gun, home invasions are a fairly common occurence.

Then your understanding is very very wrong

Yes, because that was clearly a huge reason for the Civil War. It can't have been the different economic points of view and the belief by the Southerners that the North wanted to take away their slaves and destroy what economy they had going. Oh, no, it was because they were all "macho men" with their big guns and just HAD to show them off. :rolleyes:
You need men with excess testosterone and the means to start a war to actually have a civil war, though, as well as the above factors, which were, obviously, the catalyst for the whole thing.
Please, Yootopia. You're a hell of a lot smarter than that, so don't insult your own intelligence by spouting such nonsense.
Yeah, I should probably knock posting off for a couple of days. Being ill and mildly hallucinagenic isn't helping my posting skills at all.

I need a gun, because swords are obsolete.;)

I need a gun, because swords are obsolete.;)

Blaspheming Infidel!

Cur.

Blaspheming Infidel!

Cur.

I am NOT a dog!

I am NOT a dog!

You'd be even more if I could think of anything else to flingeth towards ye!

Lily-livered, silly-spleened, yeller-bellied, spawn-sucking, barbecuing....barber!

I need my gun so the king of England can't come to my house and kick my cat.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face

Gee I guess we should all take your word on that, hahahhahahahha.

While I've lived all over the US and have indeed been faced with drunk rednecks out in the middle of nowhere pointing a gun at me (as I ran away) as well as a gang in LA. who claimed to have a gun (as I ran), I have not come face to face with a burglar with a gun. In any case I haven't needed a gun to get through those times.

You'd be even more if I could think of anything else to flingeth towards ye!

Lily-livered, silly-spleened, yeller-bellied, spawn-sucking, barbecuing....barber!

*To shoot, or stab, That is the question.*

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

Okay, first off.
You're wrong.
I live in Ohio, in a county called Lorain County.
I live in a city called Elyria, and use to live in Lorain.
This is a peaceful neighborhood, yet last year TWENTY ONE HOUSES got broken into and robbed.
A little girl in cleveland, a large city not too far from hear, got killed in a shootout.
Elyria's crime rate has grown outrageously, and the cops have essentially NO control of Lorain.
So before you start comparing your little peaceful town to America, check yourself.
It -is- dangerous, and legally owning a gun isn't a bad idea. Suggesting that we don't need to legally own guns is outrageous. What we don't need to protect ourself from the British, we ned to protect from criminals.

Then your understanding is very very wrong

Care to actually back that up with some facts?

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun. We don't, but I don't suppose we really need running water or cars either.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.

Aside from German invasions, a gun isn't really needed now is it?

Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.

Neither have I.

Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I bet your father did though.

I understand what you're getting at, and guns should be outlawed, but that's never going to happen since they're so intergrated into our society.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

It's all relative once you get right down to it.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

As I said, we don't need them, but we like to have them. So did our fathers, and their fathers, and their fathers, etc.

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK!

Commies, A-rabs, Mexi-cans. You know, all the people that want nothing more than to enslave us, convert us to Islam, and steal our jobs.

That would have to be during the Civil War. I don't what "inside" has to do with it exactly. I'm merely trying to show one country is more aggressive, and tends toward violence. We're like the modern Mongolians.





I think not. If guns were banned, muggers and burglars would just use knives or...*gasp* swords! Say, that would be fun! "En Garde you sniveling buffoon! Prepare for perforation!" "Ahhh!"

Man, a fencer's dream come-true. ;)

Well, something being against the law wouldn't stop some people; that's why you're being burgled in the first place.

Seems like it might go something like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dJOXLryzs8g

At which point I cou- I mean... he... could... make off with your DVR!

Why do I need a gun? Why don't I need a gun?

I use my guns to:

Shoot things
Protect my Property
Protect myself
Protect my country
Impress girls that I bring to my apartment
Exercise my natural human right


I think the main difference between America and Europe is that in Europe, people believe that the government gives them rights. In America, we believe that we are born with rights, and that the government only has the ability to take our rights away.

Although, my opinion is a little bias because I own an AK-47 and I am the president of the gun club at my university.

I'm agreed that it would be impossible to ban guns where they are already owned by over half of the population. It's a waste of time to even try.

I'd rather we make a concerted effort in schools to teach kids that only idiots use violence first to solve problems and get what they want so a little critical thinking and non-violent counter-moves is what is needed to overcome them.

Also, it would be good to offer public service announcements and classes maybe that teach adults ways to disarm people or use non-lethal weapons.

Owns a gun because other people in the world aren't allowed to... xD

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

I need a firearm because it's rather hard to target shoot at 100+ yards without one.

ETA: Why the hell do we need YET ANOTHER thread on this? This exact topic has been discussed so many times here on NSG, it's not even remotely funny anymore.

That would have to be during the Civil War. I don't what "inside" has to do with it exactly. I'm merely trying to show one country is more aggressive, and tends toward violence. We're like the modern Mongolians.

Actually, the Japanese invaded Alaska during WW II. I'll bet some of our patriots up there put up a resistance. :sniper:

I've noticed as I read a few comments throughout the thread that the people who are against guns have never seen or used a gun in real life. As in target shooting, or hunting. In my mind these people do not have any creditable opinion to decide that guns are unlawfull in anyway because you dont know people who own one and you've never experienced shooting one, so you dont understand. I own guns because I like to shoot targets. I own Springfield 1911 .45 and an M1 garand. I love taking them to the range and honing my shooting skills. I'm an american and I believe that this right is essential to being an American. And if you disagree you are either not an American or have never shot a gun before. We live in a society where our children are over protected like babies. "Dont go out at night. Dont go too far. Dont climb that tree. Dont touch that bug." Our grandparents handled guns when they were small children like it was nothing. Guns are not bad. I also dont appreciate people making fun of my country and saying that the people are afraid of something. We arnt afraid of anything. We're just anxious to kick some butt.

I've noticed as I read a few comments throughout the thread that the people who are against guns have never seen or used a gun in real life. As in target shooting, or hunting. In my mind these people do not have any creditable opinion to decide that guns are unlawfull in anyway because you dont know people who own one and you've never experienced shooting one, so you dont understand. I own guns because I like to shoot targets. I own Springfield 1911 .45 and an M1 garand. I love taking them to the range and honing my shooting skills. I'm an american and I believe that this right is essential to being an American. And if you disagree you are either not an American or have never shot a gun before. We live in a society where our children are over protected like babies. "Dont go out at night. Dont go too far. Dont climb that tree. Dont touch that bug." Our grandparents handled guns when they were small children like it was nothing. Guns are not bad. I also dont appreciate people making fun of my country and saying that the people are afraid of something. We arnt afraid of anything. We're just anxious to kick some butt.

I'm agreed that it would be impossible to ban guns where they are already owned by over half of the population. It's a waste of time to even try.

I'd rather we make a concerted effort in schools to teach kids that only idiots use violence first to solve problems and get what they want so a little critical thinking and non-violent counter-moves is what is needed to overcome them.

Also, it would be good to offer public service announcements and classes maybe that teach adults ways to disarm people or use non-lethal weapons.

People who feel threatened by their environment are the people who need guns the most. People who Teach other people dumb pussy asinine ways to use Jackie Chan bullshit on criminals with guns deserve to get shot.

Reasons to own a gun:

1. To Shoot Things (in essence, what a gun is designed to do.)
A. Shoot Animals (For food, or if you're the jerk who shoots something and doesn't eat it, targets)
B. Shoot Targets (For sport, not animals; see above; for fun, maintenance of skill, etc.)
C. Threaten to/ Actually Shoot People (Defend yourself, defend your rights, defend your property).

A gun is simply a tool, nothing more. Politicizing the term 'Gun' (or a more accurate term, 'Firearm') accomplishes nothing. What is really the issue is that there are people using these tools to kill people/ injure people. How is using a knife or a sword to kill someone different from killing someone with a firearm? Using a firearm for normal uses (that is, not killing people) is no different from using a blade for normal uses. Both could indeed kill someone, yet most people who own either a firearm or a blade ever use it to harm or kill someone.

For the record:
I own two rifles, a shotgun, and two handguns. I also have a tactical tomahawk (THAT THING IS SO KICKASS) and other bladed weapons (I collect them, see). I have several other tools which could be used in a very lethal way, and yet, strangely enough, I never have used them in a lethal way. I clean all my weapons at least once every few days and shoot/train with them regularly, and also fence with my swords. My martial art is Krav Maga.

To shoot those damn Canadians that try to invade us again.

GEET OFF MAH PROPERTAH!

Now for the burger to break in, find out that I am already armed with my shotgun (cocked and ready to be fired), and then decide to bolt before I decide to fill his ass with pellets. 1 to 5 minutes.

You're forgetting something, though. You forgot to figure the amount of time it'll take you to mop up the trail of piss the intruder leaves while he's running away.

People who feel threatened by their environment are the people who need guns the most. People who Teach other people dumb pussy asinine ways to use Jackie Chan bullshit on criminals with guns deserve to get shot.

People who feel threatened by their environment in the USA need to work towards addressing why their town is so unsafe rather than first making it more violent.

Why are you pissed at what I said? Are you one of those idiots who opts for violence first to solve problems? If so, please seek psychiatric help for your issues. You may not be an idiot but just have emotional problems.

I shot myself in the hand with a replica 9mm BB gun does that count?

I shot myself in the hand with a .68 caliber paintball marker once. :(

People who feel threatened by their environment in the USA need to work towards addressing why their town is so unsafe rather than first making it more violent.



Owning a firearm is not making an environment more violent.

Owning a firearm is not making an environment more violent.

I say it does since it increases the chances of lives being lost during a confrontation. I'd say a killing is decidedly more violent than a fist fight. A knife fight is more violent than a fist fight. Therefore in my eyes - more weapons = more violence.

I say it does since it increases the chances of lives being lost during a confrontation. I'd say a killing is decidedly more violent than a fist fight. A knife fight is more violent than a fist fight. Therefore in my eyes - more weapons = more violence.

Ah, now you're moving the goalposts to "confrontation" and making assumptions/generalizations about situations. Ever seen someone beaten to death? It's not "less violent".

I also don't consider all lives to be equal. Someone threatening my family does not have the same moral or ethical aptitude that I do protecting my family.

Owning a firearm does not make an environment more violent.

Actually, the Japanese invaded Alaska during WW II. I'll bet some of our patriots up there put up a resistance. :sniper:

Sure did. An irregular unit of local scouts was put together by the US Army to investigate Japanese strength in the Aleutians. They used civilian firearms, not military issue, for familiarity, accuracy, and ammo conservation. Admiral Yamamoto advised against a Japanese attempt to seize part of the west coast because he had been to America and warned there would be "A rifleman behind every blade of grass".

Protecting yourself, your country, and your family are all valid reasons to own firearms. Practice with arms is the pastime of free people, much more so than games played with a ball. Why do we need guns? We want to remain free.

I'm not out to put down anyone's country, but think historically for a moment. The beginner of this thread was a Belgian, I'd ask him why he thinks Switzerland managed to maintain its sovereignty and neutrality during two world wars while Belgium was trashed twice by the Germans. I know some would argue that the past is past, but to them I would warn, don't fall into the same ideological trap of the Marxists and the American Neocons. History doesn't have an "end", the world never becomes perfect, and once you give away a right, you're not likely to ever get it back. We Americans generally aren't willing to take the risk of giving up our arms and putting ourselves at the mercy of history.

Austrailia has high crime rates and banned guns. We need guns so the military doesn't take over. We also need guns to help us hunt and defend ouselves.:mp5::sniper:So you call people who own guns idiots?:upyours:Seems to me you are dumber than us:headbang::p

Ah, now you're moving the goalposts to "confrontation" and making assumptions/generalizations about situations. Ever seen someone beaten to death? It's not "less violent".

I also don't consider all lives to be equal. Someone threatening my family does not have the same moral or ethical aptitude that I do protecting my family.

Owning a firearm does not make an environment more violent.

Not really - if you are in a dangerous environment where you feel that you need a gun to protect yourself and indeed do get one, then you will more than likely have a deadly confrontation when it happens (which sounds likely in a rough neighborhood).

Getting beaten to death is more violent than getting shot to death, that is sure, BUT beating someone to death isn't as easy as shooting someone to death. Most people have enough compassion to stop beating someone when they seem them disabled from pain/broken limbs anyway, but people with guns shoot to kill normally. If you have a gun you are more likely full of fear than someone who would rather not take a life over a stolen tv set, and therefore more likely to eliminate the threat permanently. So, those so full of fear should get psychiatric help IMHO.

Police response varies.....when someone was actively breaking into my house a few years back and I was home alone.....they showed up 40 minutes later....when it happened again in the same house and the guy didn't go away and I had to hit him in the head with a baseball bat and he was unconscious the ambulance showed up for him about 10 minutes later......the police showed up 30 minutes after that.

One of my neighbours had her house broken into once… the burglar fled after realizing she was home. The police showed up in about five minutes, with their Canine Unit.
Of course, that's here in (Reasonably) Small Town Canada.

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !
We used to have some local wolves trying to take out cattle ... they also went after some of the neighborhood children when they were out taking a walk

We also have had to put down rabid dogs and a lame bull as well when it managed to push through a fence and work its way over a rather large rock into a crevice

Thats why I need a gun

We don't need guns. I'm danish. And I think that legalisation of guns is stupid. Guns aren't something you should be able to have. It's stupid.

Shooting others is stupid.
Killing others is stupid.
I could continue, it's just stupid.

We don't need guns. I'm danish. And I think that legalisation of guns is stupid. Guns aren't something you should be able to have. It's stupid.

Shooting others is stupid.
Killing others is stupid.
I could continue, it's just stupid.

There are plenty of reasons to have a gun rather than using on other people ... rather narrow view of gun ownership I would say

Austrailia has high crime rates and banned guns. We need guns so the military doesn't take over. We also need guns to help us hunt and defend ouselves.:mp5::sniper:So you call people who own guns idiots?:upyours:Seems to me you are dumber than us:headbang::p

LMAO. n00bs never get old.:p

We don't need guns. I'm danish. And I think that legalisation of guns is stupid. Guns aren't something you should be able to have. It's stupid.

Shooting others is stupid.
Killing others is stupid.
I could continue, it's just stupid.

One Post Wonder?

Getting beaten to death is more violent than getting shot to death, that is sure, BUT beating someone to death isn't as easy as shooting someone to death. Most people have enough compassion to stop beating someone when they seem them disabled from pain/broken limbs anyway, but people with guns shoot to kill normally. If you have a gun you are more likely full of fear than someone who would rather not take a life over a stolen tv set, and therefore more likely to eliminate the threat permanently. So, those so full of fear should get psychiatric help IMHO.

That's not always the case. If an intruder is a male and wants to hurt me, he's going to be successful. I can't beat someone into submission. It's also not fear at all. I enjoy having a variety of means to protect myself, just like my time as a cop.

But beyond the home protection realm. I just like owning guns. Target shooting is a fun hobby. I like collecting them. I just like them.

We don't need guns. I'm danish. And I think that legalisation of guns is stupid. Guns aren't something you should be able to have. It's stupid.

Shooting others is stupid.
Killing others is stupid.
I could continue, it's just stupid.

People who leagally own fire arms dont' just go out and kill people on the weekends for fun. Many are collectors, some are hunters, some shoot targets.

There's nothing wrong with hunting if you eat what you kill. Nothing at all. There's nothing wrong with collecting guns because you like them. There's nothing wrong with shooting targets.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

That's great for you, but anecdotal evidence is...well, anecdotal, isn't it? I know plenty of people who have met burglers face-to-face. Two days ago my boyfriend had to chase one away with a hockey stick.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I'd put Oakland and Richmond against many of those countries when comparing homicides rates. A town in Belgium is not a ghetto in America. Just about everyone I know has been robbed or mugged.

I'm anti-gun, actually, but your argument was too obnoxious to agree with.

That's not always the case. If an intruder is a male and wants to hurt me, he's going to be successful. I can't beat someone into submission. It's also not fear at all. I enjoy having a variety of means to protect myself, just like my time as a cop.

But beyond the home protection realm. I just like owning guns. Target shooting is a fun hobby. I like collecting them. I just like them.

I love target shooting too.

Would your first instinct be to get your gun to shoot to kill or get a taser to disable?

I love target shooting too.

Would your first instinct be to get your gun to shoot to kill or get a taser to disable?
I don't own a taser. I wish I did. I have bear spray, my monadnock from my cop days and a 9mm.

Back when I lived way outside city limits and my psycho ex was sitting outside my house all night watching me? My gun was my first, last, and only thought. There would be one person coming into my house at night and he'd be coming in to hurt or kill me. Now that it's been over a year since my ex last tried to contact me and I live back in the city? My first thought would be the bear spray. I have both in my night stand. Why have someone's death on your head for the rest of your life if you don't have to?

Edit: I also want to add, I've owned a gun long before the ex situation. I just like them.

Not really - if you are in a dangerous environment where you feel that you need a gun to protect yourself and indeed do get one, then you will more than likely have a deadly confrontation when it happens (which sounds likely in a rough neighborhood).

No, you're just as likely to be in a deadly confrontation w/ or w/o a firearm if you're in a dangerous environment. W/o one makes it more deadly for the other side.

Getting beaten to death is more violent than getting shot to death, that is sure, BUT beating someone to death isn't as easy as shooting someone to death. Most people have enough compassion to stop beating someone when they seem them disabled from pain/broken limbs anyway, but people with guns shoot to kill normally.

Why did they get the violent person get the gun in the first place if not to increase their chances of killing someone. Not much compassion there.


If you have a gun you are more likely full of fear than someone who would rather not take a life over a stolen tv set, and therefore more likely to eliminate the threat permanently. So, those so full of fear should get psychiatric help IMHO.

Some nice armchair psychoanalyzing their. It's complete nonsense however. I go under the assumption that anyone in my house is there to do violence to my family. I'm not going to rely on the compassion and stability of the criminal mindset or that they're "only after my TV".

I love target shooting too.

Would your first instinct be to get your gun to shoot to kill or get a taser to disable?

Being that Tasers are not reliable and only have one shot, I would get my firearm.

I need a gun just in case O.J. decides to cut off my head.

Being that Tasers are not reliable and only have one shot, I would get my firearm.

Tazers are great for police officers, but aren't so good for home use. Tazers are not designed to disable someone. It's more of a pain compliance device. Once the shock is over, the pain is gone. It's great for getting a non-complient subject to comply with orders.

Pepperspray, on the other hand, can disable someone or a decent amount of time. Especially bear spray.

I would need a gun if I had a firm intention of murdering someone or committing suicide. Particularly the latter, since poison tastes nasty and I'm nervous around heights. I guess sneaking up on someone with a big iron bar would do OK for the murder bit, and wouldn't make that stupid big noise.

In short, I don't need a gun. The idea that everyone's life is safer if everyone has a gun is stupid on the face of it and thoroughly disproven in practice.

Tazers are great for police officers, but aren't so good for home use. Tazers are not designed to disable someone. It's more of a pain compliance device. Once the shock is over, the pain is gone. It's great for getting a non-complient subject to comply with orders.

Pepperspray, on the other hand, can disable someone for a decent amount of time. Especially bear spray.

heh ...

Visitors to the Park are advised to wear bells to warn bears of their presence, and to carry pepper spray. Look out for signs of bear activity: Black bear scats contain berries and possibly squirrel fur, Grizzly bear scats contain bells and smell of pepper.

The idea that everyone's life is safer if everyone has a gun is stupid on the face of it and thoroughly disproven in practice.

Thats funny. Im 16. On friday i was driving me and my sister to school, and i stopped at a circle k. A couple of guys came out from behind the store with a knife and took some money from me and were going to take my car with my sister in it but the clerk ran out with aavi gun. I think him having a gun did in fact make my life safer. And dont say since im 16 this dosent count.

One of my neighbours had her house broken into once… the burglar fled after realizing she was home. The police showed up in about five minutes, with their Canine Unit.
Of course, that's here in (Reasonably) Small Town Canada.

ah, this wasn't a random person trying to break in, it was abusive ex-boyfriend who wanted to kill me, me being home made him try harder.

I called 911, it got labeled as a "domestic" which means the dispatch didn't know if we were drunk and arguing or whatever.

My girlfriends dad has been robbed twice, Her uncle has been several times...the last time almost killed him. My house has been broken into and over $800.00 worth of tools stolen. I protect my pets from foxes, possums, and raccoons. My girlfriends brother goes deer hunting and I enjoy target practicing to alleviate stress.

That dear friend from Belgium who started this thread, is the exact reason why I own guns, and will continue to do so. Even the second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution allows me to do so.

:sniper::mp5::gundge:


(On a side note....it isn't USAians. The word you were looking for is Americans).

Thats funny.
It wasn't meant to be.

Im 16. On friday i was driving me and my sister to school, and i stopped at a circle k. A couple of guys came out from behind the store with a knife and took some money from me and were going to take my car with my sister in it but the clerk ran out with aavi gun. I think him having a gun did in fact make my life safer. And dont say since im 16 this dosent count.

Well I won't. But since you raise the subject of age and you're around about the cusp of adulthood, perhaps you can say which of these is a more desirable situation:


Only adults can own guns. Therefore children cannot defend themselves, but must rely on storekeepers etc.
Children can own guns if they know gun safety and can shoot straight. They aren't legally competent to sign contracts or negotiate sex, but they can kill others at the twitch of a finger.


Am I going to argue a well-documented social fact (that gun ownership correlates strongly with gun crime) against your anecdote? No, I am not. I'll just say that it's a good thing those bandits had a knife not a gun, or you and your sister could both be dead.

My girlfriends dad has been robbed twice, Her uncle has been several times...the last time almost killed him. My house has been broken into and over $800.00 worth of tools stolen. I protect my pets from foxes, possums, and raccoons. My girlfriends brother goes deer hunting and I enjoy target practicing to alleviate stress.

That dear friend from Belgium who started this thread, is the exact reason why I own guns, and will continue to do so. Even the second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution allows me to do so.

:sniper::mp5::gundge:


(On a side note....it isn't USAians. The word you were looking for is Americans).

USians seems like a perfectly descriptive word to me, I know what people are talking about when they say it and I see no reason why it should not be used (and I am speaking as one)

But either way I have never wanted to own a hand gun nor had any need ... rifles for the most part are way more useful to me either way. Or a good old shotgun

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

Wow, look at that flamebait go!

1) I am an American.
2) I have never owned a gun.
3) I have never felt the need to own a gun.
4) Your premise is phail.

I was 3 times in NY. I had no gun with me and I didn't need one as well.

I never was in danger, never saw violent things.
I was in NY in 1992, 1999 and 2004

I didn't stay on the typical tourist 'lanes'.

What neighborhoods did you visit?

But Times Squares and Central Park are located in Brooklyn.

No, they're not.

I can't remember if I was in that specific spot, I mean East NY.

But I do remember that I was in Harlem. I believe it's also famous for its crime rates.

I saw weird stuff over there, but no crimes. I didn't need a gun and I felt very safe. I'm white btw.

Day or night?

Okay, first off.
You're wrong.
I live in Ohio, in a county called Lorain County.
Woah, seriously?! My grandparents live in Lorain county!

They don't own guns and don't seem to have any problems with this fact. They hardly even lock their doors.

(On a side note....it isn't USAians. The word you were looking for is Americans).
Funny, I live on a continent known as North America and I'm not a USian. Well, technically I have citizenship, but I've never lived in the country... but generally, most of my countrymen and women don't have US citizenship yet could be called "American" if one is going by continents. And that's not even touching South America...

Over 50% of American homes own guns, do they really own them for these reasons? Is it really just a "tiny minority" who buys them out of fear (safety purposes)? I'd like to believe you, but can you cite anything to put my mind at ease?

Are you sure of that?

http://www.vpc.org/press/0704norc.htm
http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html

10% is a BIG margin of error in your statement there.

im Portuguese and so far i haven't needed a firearm (haven't had my life threatened by punks with knifes or fireams)

i suppose i could eventually someday try to legally obtain a gun and safety gun course as well, for interest/curiosity, but i don't think i will need that for real practices (not unless crime rates skyrocket here where i live)

also, paintball doesn't (usually) kills. i think some people could try this instead of shooting targets (ie animals) with real guns for fun...

one thing im certain is that gun control laws are essential

im Portuguese and so far i haven't needed a firearm (haven't had my life threatened by punks with knifes or fireams)

i suppose i could eventually someday try to legally obtain a gun and safety gun course as well, for interest/curiosity, but i don't think i will need that for real practices (not unless crime rates skyrocket here where i live)

also, paintball doesn't (usually) kills. i think some people could try this instead of shooting targets (ie animals) with real guns for fun...

one thing im certain is that gun control laws are essential

I've played paintball, and shot firearms. They're nothing alike, as far as ballistics. A paintball is an inaccurate, imperfect fluid filled sphere with a seam and bad aerodynamic flight characteristics, whereas a bullet is an accurate, tapered solid projectile with very good aerodynamic flight characteristics.

Don't get me wrong though, I did enjoy paintball when I played (knee injuries and lack of someone to go with have forced me to stop playing, at least for now).

And I agree, some firearms control is needed. In the US, you can't buy/possess/use a firearm if you're a convicted felon, or adjudicated mentally incompetent and a danger to yourself/others. In the US, you have to submit to a NICS background check before you can purchase a firearm from an FFL holder. In CT, if you don't have a pistol permit or hunting license, the state requires you to wait 14 days (from the time you submit your paperwork) to purchase a firearm. Also in CT, there's safe storage laws in effect, to help prevent firearms accidents. That's gun control I can believe in, but for some in the anti-gun crowd, that's not even close to enough.

Are you sure of that?

http://www.vpc.org/press/0704norc.htm
http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html

10% is a BIG margin of error in your statement there.

Hmm... Fair enough. I read 50% in a Google search result once, probably should have checked again. My bad. I did find this stat though: "40% of American households with children have guns", and that "[o]n average, 3 children died every day in non-homicide firearm incidents from 1999-2004".

Source (http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/fact_file.asp)

Probably getting away from the issue here... What was it again? :p

I would need a gun if I had a firm intention of murdering someone or committing suicide. Particularly the latter, since poison tastes nasty and I'm nervous around heights. I guess sneaking up on someone with a big iron bar would do OK for the murder bit, and wouldn't make that stupid big noise.

In short, I don't need a gun. The idea that everyone's life is safer if everyone has a gun is stupid on the face of it and thoroughly disproven in practice.

There is a real life news article about this here (http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/everyone_should_own_a_gun_for). Not really.

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

I'll tell you why we need guns; because we CAN'T TRUST OUR GOVERNMENT! It is standard operating procedure for any would-be dictatorship to enact "gun control" laws before they take over in earnest. That way the populace, having been disarmed, will be MUCH easier to control. And any government that wants to disarm its populace CANNOT be trusted any further than it can be thrown with both arms broken and in slings.

I know if you live in the projects of East New York, there are plenty of reasons why you would want to have a gun in your apartment.

But those people who live in a safe neighborhood, a gun is more of a symbol of power rather than a practical "I am gonna shoot someone" thing.

That's the other reason to own a gun; to defend yourself from criminals. If I were a criminal, I would rather break into a house that did NOT have guns than break into one that DID.

There is a real life news article about this here (http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/everyone_should_own_a_gun_for).
<3 the onion.

You don't. It's mostly crazy rednecks like the NRA running around screaming about their second amendment rights.

Here are the reasons I know of for owning guns:


To protect your own life by threatening someone else's, or by actually killing them.
To kill or threaten others for personal reasons (eg to empty the till.)
To protect your property by threatening another's life, or by killing them.
To protect property (usually stock or crops) from wild animals or ferals.
To protect the environment by killing ferals or unsustainable populations.
To hunt for food (necessity or simply a preference for freshly killed meat.)
To hunt for sport.
To shoot for sport (target shooting, clay pigeons.)
To collect (like clocks or cards.)



This is the most common, bottom-line reason private citizens own guns. It makes perfect sense individually, no-one wants to be the one to bring a knife to a gunfight.
Unfortunately, when everyone does it there are far more murders and completed suicides. The social effect of gun ownership is ... more people get shot and more die.
Yes, criminals can buy a gun even if they are banned. But USians note, it's a fuck sight harder when you have to show cause for wanting a gun, than when the government has to show cause why you shouldn't have one. And when the first house you break into has a 4% chance of having a gun inside, instead of over 50%.
This is also a commonly-cited reason for owning guns. Again socially, we have a situation where property is valued above life ... or at least, my property above your life.
Yes. If you have significant amounts of stock or crops or live in a very isolated place. Almost no-one does.
That's for rangers. In Australia, private citizens can claim a bounty for killing, eg feral pigs. They need a licence to do that, also one for their gun.
Yeah, sort of. If you have to take a whole day, drive out into the country and possibly bag nothing, not really. Looks more like a lifestyle choice .... If you live way out there, sure. But if everyone did it, there'd be nothing bigger than a rat in the wild.
Well, that's just disgusting. Destroying the habitat of our fellow creatures with our farms and mines is justifiable by collective self-interest, we want cheap food and manufactured goods. But if you find it gratifying to drive out to where there are still wild animals, and kill them for the sense of power it gives you to be man-the-tool-user ... all I can say is, you have that thing pointed the wrong way.
OK, it goes bang and makes a hole in something. You should try model trains, they're fun too and not so dangerous.
Fine. So long as it is disabled or -- perhaps -- uses obsolete ammunition you have to pack yourself.


4,5 and 6 are good reasons ... for some people in some situations. If you make your living from raising sheep or trying to regulate the environment by culling feral animals, it could be called a "need." If you are a sociopath who can't face using the supermarket, I guess we're all better off if you choose to play Daniel Boone.

8 and 9 and pretty silly reasons, no way a "need."

1,2 and 3 are the real guts of the "right to bear arms." And they are also the deal-breaker. Guns are a tool for killing at a distance, they allow you to kill someone who isn't even necessarily invading your personal space. Guns are not the leveller, which allows a bucktoothed weakling to face down a muscular thug -- they are a tool which gives the power to one immoral enough to kill another for their personal gain, or indeed simply from fear. They give equal or superior power to the morally weaker party in a conflict, the one who "shoots first, asks questions later."

-----

For the record, yes I have fired guns. I practiced with a friend's rifle out in the forest, and once a different friend took me to the range to fire off a clip from each of three different pistols. It was fun, but no way do I "need" a gun to have some fun.

In fact, the experience of firing guns showed me how ridiculously easy it would be to shoot a person within fifty metres of me. With no training and very little practice, I found the quality of the gun the limiting factor. Use the sights, squeeze with your whole hand. Easier than taking a photograph.

I say why not have guns. The vast majority do not go around killing each other. Sharp objects and cars kill more people then guns do on any given year anyway.

I keep a 9mm and a shotgun at home for protection. Only reason I do that is because I had some kid on drugs break into my house with a gun. I came home while the idiot was still in the house. Called the cops and they took care of it however I did have a 9mm on me at the time and probably could have confronted him. However the situation was not a direct threat and I could safely call the police. That was when I was younger and lived in a lower middle class neighborhood.

I also do have a collection of military weapons that I take out a couple times a year and have a day with friends and the boy for some fun. Those are locked up when not in use on a range or a gravel pit in the country.

Followers of the Lord have many enemies nowadays. A bullet is the Lord's way of saying "keep away, heathen, ye shall not harm my faithful."

I have a large number of guns. I let my nephew take care of them. He's what ya might call a goth or emo. He's depressed and angry all the time but seems to perk up and smile whenever I let him clean my guns or just borrow them for a while.

I'll tell you why we need guns; because we CAN'T TRUST OUR GOVERNMENT! It is standard operating procedure for any would-be dictatorship to enact "gun control" laws before they take over in earnest. That way the populace, having been disarmed, will be MUCH easier to control. And any government that wants to disarm its populace CANNOT be trusted any further than it can be thrown with both arms broken and in slings.

But...but...you elect the govenrment you don't trust! :eek:


IMO the only valid reason to own a private gun is recreational use, including hunting and target practice - Using guns beyond and above that is unethical...well, unless the operator is a defence or police force of a democratic country.

I own 5 guns and each serves a purpose:

Remington model 700 (.270 caliber)
Mossberg model 453T (.22 caliber)
These are used for hunting large and small game respectively ...

Springfield 1911 (.45 caliber)
This is used for home/personal property/family protection ...

Glock 19 (9mm)
This is used for personal protection at all other times VIA an unconstitutional Conceled Carry Permit ...

Springfield F.A.L. (.308 caliber)
This is used for anything else that would require a higher degree of firepower: Zombies, SHTF situations, Government abuse of power, etc ...

Gotta give you credit, this is an excellent list:
Here are the reasons I know of for owning guns:


To protect your own life by threatening someone else's, or by actually killing them.
To kill or threaten others for personal reasons (eg to empty the till.)
To protect your property by threatening another's life, or by killing them.
To protect property (usually stock or crops) from wild animals or ferals.
To protect the environment by killing ferals or unsustainable populations.
To hunt for food (necessity or simply a preference for freshly killed meat.)
To hunt for sport.
To shoot for sport (target shooting, clay pigeons.)
To collect (like clocks or cards.)



This is the most common, bottom-line reason private citizens own guns. It makes perfect sense individually, no-one wants to be the one to bring a knife to a gunfight.
Unfortunately, when everyone does it there are far more murders and completed suicides. The social effect of gun ownership is ... more people get shot and more die.
Yes, criminals can buy a gun even if they are banned. But USians note, it's a fuck sight harder when you have to show cause for wanting a gun, than when the government has to show cause why you shouldn't have one. And when the first house you break into has a 4% chance of having a gun inside, instead of over 50%.
This is also a commonly-cited reason for owning guns. Again socially, we have a situation where property is valued above life ... or at least, my property above your life.
Yes. If you have significant amounts of stock or crops or live in a very isolated place. Almost no-one does.
That's for rangers. In Australia, private citizens can claim a bounty for killing, eg feral pigs. They need a licence to do that, also one for their gun.
Yeah, sort of. If you have to take a whole day, drive out into the country and possibly bag nothing, not really. Looks more like a lifestyle choice .... If you live way out there, sure. But if everyone did it, there'd be nothing bigger than a rat in the wild.
Well, that's just disgusting. Destroying the habitat of our fellow creatures with our farms and mines is justifiable by collective self-interest, we want cheap food and manufactured goods. But if you find it gratifying to drive out to where there are still wild animals, and kill them for the sense of power it gives you to be man-the-tool-user ... all I can say is, you have that thing pointed the wrong way.
OK, it goes bang and makes a hole in something. You should try model trains, they're fun too and not so dangerous.
Fine. So long as it is disabled or -- perhaps -- uses obsolete ammunition you have to pack yourself.




Taking someone's life is morally neutral. It depends on too much to make a blanket statement. Murder and self-defence are completely different. As far as suicide, however, it's been shown that when guns are not available, suicide by methods such as inhalation or hanging close the gap, leaving no overall reduction in suicides.
It's harder to get a gun when you need to prove need, but criminals don't have legal guns. Less than 5% of guns used in a crime in the US were ever registered, so it seems like the proliferation of legal guns isn't the biggest issue. There is also a negative correlation between high rates of gun ownership and burglaries (in the US).
As I said above, simply having guns around deters crime. However, your point about the value of a life over personal property is still valid. In the US, we (speaking loosely) value a person's sovereignty over their property over the value of a criminal's life. Whether or not this is moral is subjective.
I agree, largely a moot point.
Again I agree, but unsustainable populations will be addressed.
In the US, hunting permits are (AFAIK) issued for only enough animals to control population; they aren't just handed out left and right. Thus hunting is a valid reason to own firearms, both for enjoyment and population control (it's also cheaper than paying government workers to do the same).
Totally agreed, though a law against this is not (in my opinion) appropriate, as hunting is largely used as population control anyways. If the government had to kill them they'd still go to waste. Maybe offering the first choice of permits to those who plan on eating what they shoot would work. Enforcement would be difficult, though.
Target shooting is a perfectly safe hobby, and there's no reason target shooting or sport shooting in and of itself should be banned. There is the remote chance of an accident, just like there is while skiing, racing cars, or many other hobbies. We're not all fans of trains, y'know.
If my premises above hold out, then a gun worthy of being collected should be no less permissible than any other.


And again, kudos on actually going out and shooting a gun. Most people will sit and criticize without knowing much about what they're criticizing. It's a refreshing change of pace to have some civil discussion :D

If you think Times Square and Central Park is where Brooklyn is, then you don't know where Brooklyn is.

It's never a good idea to argue with the locals about the directions of their home city, wouldn't you agree?

Harlem really isn't that bad anymore, I agree with that.

No, I asked if it was 'cause I was not sure.

According wiki Times Square is in Brooklyn.

And I remember pretty well that Central Park isn't that far away from TS. All what was needed was a little walk.

Wiki says:

"Times Square is a major intersection in Manhattan, New York City at the junction of Broadway and Seventh Avenue and stretching from West 42nd to West 47th Streets."

But please, start your own thread about the location of Brooklyn.

1813ish is wrong. It would have to be 1864ish. Anyhoo, the Belgians might require a gun more defensively speaking, but U.S. is an aggressive nation. We're invading nations left and right. Ergo, we like our guns more.

I believe that the Germans liked to invade countries as well.

They kill each other 5 times less as Americans.

Sorry, I don't eat, the barbarian history motive.

No you're not. You're looking to start an argument. The way you phrase your post makes it obvious there's no way you will never change your mind.





Two things here: One, anectodal evidence proves nothing. If you want to go with anectodes, I could say some friends of mine just got robbed two weeks ago. Three guys just knocked on the door, pushed their way in and started grabbing stuff. Had there been a firearm in the apartment, I guarantee it would have turned out different. But, again, anectodal evidence proves nothing.
Two, as others have pointed out, you haven't been to the worst parts of New York. I doubt you've spent a night in these parts, and I can guarantee you've never spent a week or a month there. You are no more qualified to speak about firearm ownership in the US than I am about ownership in Belgium.

I should mind my own business?

Anectodal evidence proves nothing, only if you use it, no?

I'm still wondering why you need a gun?

So 50% or whatever share of ALL Americans have a gun because some parts of NY are unsafe? :)

Why I am not qualified to have an opinion about gun ownership?





Once more, for emphasis.[/QUOTE]

I have a .22 semi-automatic rifle, a handgun and a 12 gauge shotgun. The rifle and shotgun are for protection in the home. Why not use police, because police in the USA are not like the one in the UK, they don't come right this second. So for the police to be used as protection is pretty much pointless, in the USA, they're mainly there to clean up. As for the handgun, protection outside the home, I have a CCW permit.

So you are afraid? You live in a warzone? Snipers on the roof?

Why do you need protection?

i dont think we realy need a gun but if your going against a gun your kinda outa luck but otherwise anyone can go hand to hand.:sniper::mp5:

I have a gun because I'm a former police officer and I've grown fond of target practice as a skill and hobby. I also used to live far out of the city limits and have had my house broken into many many times. I had no close neighbors and the cops were 40 min away minimum. My neighbor was nearly kidnapped when she was riding her bike by a well dressed man who ran her off the road.

I'm a single female. There's no way I could over power a male intruder.

I believe you Snafturi. But not all Americans are having the same profile as you do, isn't?

I am rather sure that most Americans never will face kidnapping. USA is not another Colombia, isn't?

While defense against household burglary is certain one possible use, it's hardly the only use. (And I would caution against using your own personal experiences to advise policy for another country when you have no experience with it.)

The 2nd Amendment gave us the right to own firearms as a check against the military and the power of the government. Obviously with the current military technology that's a little harder--if ever we had to do it we'd be reduced mostly to guerrilla warfare, much like the Iraqi resistance fighters--though we'd likely have at least some people in the military join our side.

Anyway, that's the main reason, to serve as a check against the government's power, and it's something very sensible in my mind. If all else fails, if the government turns into a dictatorship, we have the power to force it to change back to a republic. Even if that was the only possible reason for owning a firearm I would NEVER give that up, because that check, that ability, is far too precious.

Also, they can be used for hunting, and self-defense of many types--not just against burglaries. Plus, there are people who like to hone their skills by going to shooting ranges, and I'm sure there's a few other legitimate uses, like, say, Mythbuster's testing or what have you.

Are they also used for criminal purposes? Of course. Can they be used to harm others? Certainly. But we don't prevent that by trying to get rid of them, since you couldn't no matter what you try to do. For 230 years this country has allowed its citizens to own firearms and that allowance has created so many guns that you'd never get rid of them even if you tried.

All that said, I am most definitely for sensible gun control legislation intended to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally unstable and criminals. Law-abiding citizens may freely own them, however, as far as I am concerned, though anyone who purchases one should be required to take a gun safety and gun usage class, so they know what they're doing. Yes, I know that's training people, but believe you me, someone who knows what they're doing with a firearm is a hell of a lot safer than one who doesn't, because accidents with firearms kill a lot of people every year.

Oh, and I'd like to add a regulation about keeping them safely in the house, but sadly that's not enforceable unless we want to give up fundamental rights that I am not prepared to give up for any reason whatsoever.

Society evolves. I believe in your country it once was used to have slaves.

Not that long ago, there was an apartheid system.

In my country, in the sixties you drive as fast as you wished on the highways. Today it's over.

To protect yourself against your own government?

1) Is it that evil?
2) I visited USA several times. I was in shock about the countless very very very but very fat people. I'm wondering how they would fight with trained and skilled green berets.
3) Will you stop a tank or an airplane with a gun?

Because most Americans today live in fear (IMO)
I'd like to have a gun with me, 'specially if some crazy decides to try and pull some stunt.
It's preventative measure.

IMHO, fear is the key.

Crazy people are everywhere.
And it seems that those crazy ones are not stopped 'cause you have a gun. Odds are high that those crazy ones will have a gun as well. Look at your homicide rates, they are 6 times higher as in my country? Is USA containing 6 times more backward people as Belgium?

1) For he enjoyment of learning and practicing the skill of arms.

2) For the protection of my life

3) For my duty as an able bodied man to keep and bear arms, in accordance with my fundamental rights as a free person.


How many times was your life in danger?

Why should I need anything that I want to own? A house, nice clothing, a fuel efficient car?

*** BREAKING NEWS *** A student armed with a house entered a high school and killed - no one...



That is very nice for you, I hope you are never forcefully robbed or assualted.

Well odds are low. Very low. And so is the situation in USA.


So? Why should this prevent people from owning a firearm?
It hasn't prevented me from learning a martial art.

'Cause people use it as an argument: "I'm in fear for criminals" But even in USA criminality isn't that hard. It exists sure. With or without guns.


Not everyone is the 'average' 'USian', not everyone will never meet a burglar. Plus, this has nothing to do with owning a firearm.

Sure, but most will not see one.


Because they want to own one, it is legal to own one, so they get one. How is that hard to understand?

You have 5 times more homicides than most civilized European countries. Maybe there's a connection with guns. Guns are dangerous, no?


Owning a gun =/= fear of anything. I learned a martial art out of pure interest and to further my physical health. Owning a gun is most likely purely out of interest of owning a gun. I don't know anyone who thinks one day: "OMG OMG what if like someone like might ya know! rob me!? OMG I better get a gun! Holy crap!".

So, 50% of the Americans have a pure interest in owning a gun?

One can buy a gun legally in Belgium. But few are interested in guns.

Most people here consider guns as dangerous and they have more disadvantages as advantages.

No fear? When I watch American news, I'm amazed how many items are broadcasted about (black) burglars, car jacking etc...

One is thinking they are *just* everywhere. But then you hit the American street and you don’t see those criminals. They are not everywhere. But the atmosphere is created.

Fear is certainly a factor, if not thé factor. Look at this thread, many people say: “to protect myself”

From what? Criminals that aren’t there? An evil government?

1. Taking someone's life is morally neutral. It depends on too much to make a blanket statement. Murder and self-defence are completely different. As far as suicide, however, it's been shown that when guns are not available, suicide by methods such as inhalation or hanging close the gap, leaving no overall reduction in suicides.

I cannot agree that taking life is morally neutral. For me, taking the life of an ant is a bad thing, but not so bad that I would bother looking closely at the ground as I walk. Taking the life of fish is bad, and I'd take some trouble not to do it for no reason. "I'm hungry" is easily enough reason.
Cut to the chase ... taking a human life is a very very bad thing. I could only justify it to prevent the taking of another human life, and perhaps if I got to think it over not even then. Who am I to judge two human lives and then choose which is to end? With the decision completely in my hands, I would feel like a murderer either way.
I see that as one of the "bad lessons" of the death penalty. If it's OK for ultimate authority to terminate a person's life, after the equivocation of trial, surely it's OK for me, the (hypothetical) armed witness to a foul crime, to do the same? They don't need no stinking lawyer, I just saw what they did! If justice is served, I am certain they will be executed, so why not cut the bullshit and do it right here and now? I can claim self-defence, and after a chat to the victim I'll have a witness and all. Dead men tell no tales.

If one of the lives was mine (self-defence) sure the decision would be easy on the spur of the moment. But in fact people do trade their lives for those of their loved ones or for a cause, so it's obviously not "my life above all else." The more I knew about the person I was proposing to kill, the harder it would be.

2.It's harder to get a gun when you need to prove need, but criminals don't have legal guns. Less than 5% of guns used in a crime in the US were ever registered, so it seems like the proliferation of legal guns isn't the biggest issue. There is also a negative correlation between high rates of gun ownership and burglaries (in the US).

Gun smuggling is a huge problem, as are all kinds of smuggling in these days of thriving international trade. Ideally I'd like to see gun manufacture heavily regulated worldwide ... which is obviously a dream ... yet each country which tries to make guns unobtainable to its own populace brings it a little closer. If they regulate ownership of guns within their borders but permit their export -- that's a hostile act towards other countries and can be punished.

The US, Russia and China all arm poor and desperate people who should not be armed, including terrorists. Wave the holy dollar bill over it and it's OK.

Mmm, I'm making wild assertions because you just won that point. :)

3. As I said above, simply having guns around deters crime.
I presume this is based on state-by-state US figures. The high rate of crime in the US (how else to interpret the high rates of imprisonment?) may indeed have some other cause than gun ownership. I'll read any links you have.
However, your point about the value of a life over personal property is still valid. In the US, we (speaking loosely) value a person's sovereignty over their property over the value of a criminal's life. Whether or not this is moral is subjective.
Very! I think there are better solutions than the Wild West method, but then I am a freaky take-from-the-rich-give-to-the-poor frontier socialist. I find justice very subjective.

For instance, if I became aware of a stranger creeping around in my house, I'd try to hit them very hard with something very hard. I'd knock them cold, and probably err on the side of killing them instead of just making them dizzy. If I had a gun (very unlikely of course) I'd aim right at their chest and turn the lights on them and start shouting.
Objectively, the iron bar is rather random: I might kill them by accident, they might be entirely innocent (an incompetent agent of our secret police, for instance.) At gunpoint, they would have the option to explain ... or their mate I didn't see might just blow my brains out, since it's not him I have in the sights. Very very subjective, not something there's a universal rule for.

But home defense is a rather special case. I've been burgled a few times, but I've never owned anything I'd risk my life for ... rather I experienced it as a violation of my personal space. Home is a place where you know everyone, where you choose who comes and goes. When a stranger challenges that, it's easy to assume they mean YOU harm, personally, and to react as if in self-defense (defense of life).

5. In the US, hunting permits are (AFAIK) issued for only enough animals to control population; they aren't just handed out left and right. Thus hunting is a valid reason to own firearms, both for enjoyment and population control (it's also cheaper than paying government workers to do the same).
Well fair enough. I guess it is in no-one's interest to extinct species. I was probably thinking of the bad old days when species were hunted to extinction for their fur.
Totally agreed, though a law against this is not (in my opinion) appropriate, as hunting is largely used as population control anyways. If the government had to kill them they'd still go to waste. Maybe offering the first choice of permits to those who plan on eating what they shoot would work. Enforcement would be difficult, though.
Yeah, just a personal note. I find such people the interspecies equivalent of psychopaths, but I can't see legal bans doing any good. They'd probably deliberately target endangered species or even people if the law tried to stop them taking out their frustrations on "game." Let them know I despise them for their brutal cowardice, and leave it at that.

Target shooting is a perfectly safe hobby, and there's no reason target shooting or sport shooting in and of itself should be banned. There is the remote chance of an accident, just like there is while skiing, racing cars, or many other hobbies.
Racing cars??
*bristles*
Some target shooting guns are fairly harmless due to small calibre. But they could still be used to threaten people who didn't know that, so to hell with their sport. There's a million sports out there, individual, competitive or team ... they can just change their tastes.

Look, if I secretly plan to kill a particular individual, can I cover my preparations by practicing my skiing or my scuba-diving until the day I get upslope from them and break their neck with a ski? Until the day they swim past me and I can drag them down into the reef and drown them? A mad plan, surely. But I can practice my target shooting as a "sport" ... then pick my target.

One thing I'll say: not even Tiger Woods could murder a chosen individual with a golf-ball at more than ten metres range. I, however, have damn nearly killed myself with one.

If my premises above hold out, then a gun worthy of being collected should be no less permissible than any other.

Now that's an odd thing to say. Only working guns are collectible?
I would define "collectible" as: (1)In limited supply, either because antique, or deliberately released in limited numbers, eg commemorative coins, and (2) Of some design or historical merit.
People who buy expensive goods which then lose value over time are not collectors, they are simply showing off their spending power. To hell with them, they can disable their weapons or else demonstrate a legitimate reason to own the weapon for what it is intended for.

And again, kudos on actually going out and shooting a gun. Most people will sit and criticize without knowing much about what they're criticizing. It's a refreshing change of pace to have some civil discussion

Well, kudos really goes to the friends who persuaded me to do the shooting. They kind of took it personally that I hated guns, and talked me into trying them. As I said, I was horrified at how easy it was to shoot things, and the fun of it sure didn't win me over to "I want one."

Gee I guess we should all take your word on that, hahahhahahahha.

So you have 280.000.000 active burglars in USA?

Okay, first off.
You're wrong.
I live in Ohio, in a county called Lorain County.
I live in a city called Elyria, and use to live in Lorain.
This is a peaceful neighborhood, yet last year TWENTY ONE HOUSES got broken into and robbed.
A little girl in cleveland, a large city not too far from hear, got killed in a shootout.
Elyria's crime rate has grown outrageously, and the cops have essentially NO control of Lorain.
So before you start comparing your little peaceful town to America, check yourself.
It -is- dangerous, and legally owning a gun isn't a bad idea. Suggesting that we don't need to legally own guns is outrageous. What we don't need to protect ourself from the British, we ned to protect from criminals.



We have criminals as well. Sometimes, while it's rare, people kill each other.
So it's not full of milk and honey.

How many accidents occurred in Ohio? School shootings, little children that killed each other, some husband that killed his wife 'cause she f*cked the neighbour, that kind of things?

School-shooting don't happen here. Little children don't kill each other here, 'cause there are almost no guns (sure, it happens here, but it's so rare).
And lovers of busted women their *ss is kicked, but no one dies.

USA is counting 5 times more homicides as most European countries. Including some East European ones.

But still, guns have nothing to do with it... :)

How many times was your life in danger?

What is your operational definition of the minimum number of times one's life must be in danger before it justifies having a gun?

I own a few guns myself, and as many have said before, a lot of it is for the fun of it: Target practice, hunting, and wild animal control.

At one point on my land we had a pack of wild dogs attacking livestock on and around our land. Animal control doesn't really concern themselves with problems outside of the city limits here, so it was either kill the wild dogs or lose livestock.

And although my life has never been in direct danger from another human or animal, I'd rather be prepared to defend myself than ask whoever is threatening my life if they honestly believe that guns are necessary ;)

You might want to consider the general development of the region in which gun owners are located. I would imagine you would find a larger number of *legal* gun owners in more rural areas in which law enforcement is not as comprehensive as suburban and urban areas. In addition, I would imagine in the United States there is a larger gun ownership in the south and southwest once again due to the larger expanses of sparsely populated land. Also, a large amount of gun owners are simply recreational gun owners who like to target practice and hunt. This is of course not accounting of the illegal possession of weapons, which I am sure would skew my assertion about the geography of gun owners.

Lastly, the sound of a 12-gauge pump loading a shell into it's chamber is a pretty universal sound :)

Why do I need a gun? Why don't I need a gun?

I use my guns to:

Shoot things
Protect my Property
Protect myself
Protect my country
Impress girls that I bring to my apartment
Exercise my natural human right


I think the main difference between America and Europe is that in Europe, people believe that the government gives them rights. In America, we believe that we are born with rights, and that the government only has the ability to take our rights away.

Although, my opinion is a little bias because I own an AK-47 and I am the president of the gun club at my university.


Protect against what or who? Why didn't you stop 911 then?

I impress girls with other things. By showing interest in them, by listening, by being a good friend and lover.

I don't think I could impress one girl here by showing her...a gun :) She would think I'm a weird sick wacko.

And I don't think you impress a girl either by showing your gun. Let me guess, you're chronic single?

No the difference is, that USA is in fear and afraid of everything. They are pussies.

IMHO, fear is the key.

Crazy people are everywhere.
And it seems that those crazy ones are not stopped 'cause you have a gun. Odds are high that those crazy ones will have a gun as well. Look at your homicide rates, they are 6 times higher as in my country? Is USA containing 6 times more backward people as Belgium?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Belgium

"According to the same source, Brussels had a rate of 10 murders or violent deaths per 100.000 citizens, which is five times higher than Paris (2 per 100.000)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City

Homicide: 6.6/100,000


Wow, isn't that amazing, the crime rate in your capitol is higher than New York City also.

Maybe they should ban sports events to reduce that figure. A lot of violence happens at those.

If you can provide a EUian link on Brussles' homicide rate I will be happy to listen.

No the difference is, that USA is in fear and afraid of everything. They are pussies.

Why must people act like embarrasments to Europe :rolleyes:

Care to actually back that up with some facts?

OK, according to the UK home office Burglary rates dropped by 22% from 2002/03 to 2003/04 this equates to total numbers of 940,000 to 750,000 out of a total of 24million households

I'm wondering why someone needs a gun.

I'm living in Belgium for almost 40 years.
Not one time, I met a burglar face-to-face.
Not one time I was in need for a gun.

I know that criminality is some higher in US, but it's still not that hard. Compare their rates with the ones of South Africa, Columbia and others and US is rather a land at peace.

I am rather sure that the average USAian never will meet a burglar face-to-face.

Still, why do they need such guns?

It seems they are very afraid from something. They act like chickens. TOK TOK TOOOOK !

Who gives a flying fuck whether or not anyone NEEDS a gun? Why do some people "NEED" drugs? Because it makes them feel AWESOME. So does a gun, I assume. It's a "spare cock" thing.

I'm pro-gun, pro-drugs (yes, I recommend drugs), and ultimately pro-choice on things you haven't even HEARD of.

You seem frightened of people being able to own guns.....are you sure you aren't projecting the "chickenness" on others because you yourself are the chicken? Think about it. Seriously. You won't have to think about anything else today, I promise.

:sniper:

What is your operational definition of the minimum number of times one's life must be in danger before it justifies having a gun?

I own a few guns myself, and as many have said before, a lot of it is for the fun of it: Target practice, hunting, and wild animal control.

At one point on my land we had a pack of wild dogs attacking livestock on and around our land. Animal control doesn't really concern themselves with problems outside of the city limits here, so it was either kill the wild dogs or lose livestock.

And although my life has never been in direct danger from another human or animal, I'd rather be prepared to defend myself than ask whoever is threatening my life if they honestly believe that guns are necessary ;)

You might want to consider the general development of the region in which gun owners are located. I would imagine you would find a larger number of *legal* gun owners in more rural areas in which law enforcement is not as comprehensive as suburban and urban areas. In addition, I would imagine in the United States there is a larger gun ownership in the south and southwest once again due to the larger expanses of sparsely populated land. Also, a large amount of gun owners are simply recreational gun owners who like to target practice and hunt. This is of course not accounting of the illegal possession of weapons, which I am sure would skew my assertion about the geography of gun owners.

Lastly, the sound of a 12-gauge pump loading a shell into it's chamber is a pretty universal sound :)


So all those US gun addicted users have to protect their livestock from wild dogs?

I believe you Snafturi. But not all Americans are having the same profile as you do, isn't?

I am rather sure that most Americans never will face kidnapping. USA is not another Colombia, isn't?

Your reasoning is sickeningly utilitarian.

Protect against what or who? Why didn't you stop 911 then?

I impress girls with other things. By showing interest in them, by listening, by being a good friend and lover.

I don't think I could impress one girl here by showing her...a gun :) She would think I'm a weird sick wacko.

And I don't think you impress a girl either by showing your gun. Let me guess, you're chronic single?

No the difference is, that USA is in fear and afraid of everything. They are pussies.


I can see how it would act out:

Intruder: *breaking into my house to take my possession or cause me physical harm.

Me: Excuse me fine sir, allow me to dial 9-1-1 as I am completely unable to defend myself at the moment.

Intruder: Why of course, because I can wait right here until the police arrive!

Me: Oh good! Well, I see you have already helped yourself to most that I own, could I interest you in a Diet Coke?

Anyone in their right mind would dial 911 in order to get law enforcement involved. However when faced with an immediate threat 911 is useless, especially if you live far from town. An alarm would be a good alternative, but alarms are much more expensive than a cheap rifle/handgun and a box of bullets

In order to understand America's obsession with guns you simply need to look as far as how the USA developed as we know it today. Old and new world immigrants were faced with uncertainty of seeing tomorrow as they moved westward toward the Pacific Ocean. The result of this is a still prevalent highly individualistic culture in America. Now oppose that to Europe which has been settled and modernized and had been cultured and groomed over centuries upon centuries. Though still individualistic, the times in which Europe was still wild and unsettled is an exponentially longer time ago than America (excluding Native Americans who as we all know were here much longer before Europe sailed over) . The USA as it is known today has only been around a fraction of the time as Europe has been! The recency of such events for America as opposed to the "Old World" can shed light on the fundamental differences between yourself and Americans who still believe they have a right to defend themselves with arms as opposed to Europeans who haven't had the need to face the wild or frontier for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

I could imagine a man from the Orient (who was much more advanced socially, economically, and culturally than the brutish Europeans of his time) asking why all Europeans felt it was their right to carry around swords :p

So all those US gun addicted users have to protect their livestock from wild dogs?

No, if you read my entire post you would have learned that many have guns because they enjoy target practice, hunting, self defense, AND animal control.

You are simply reducing each post down to one fact and then making an absurd generalization about all gun owners. One would figure after 14 pages of posting you would at least acknowledge the validity of those who think different than you even if you did not personally endorse their beliefs.

Who gives a flying fuck whether or not anyone NEEDS a gun? Why do some people "NEED" drugs? Because it makes them feel AWESOME. So does a gun, I assume. It's a "spare cock" thing.

I'm pro-gun, pro-drugs (yes, I recommend drugs), and ultimately pro-choice on things you haven't even HEARD of.

You seem frightened of people being able to own guns.....are you sure you aren't projecting the "chickenness" on others because you yourself are the chicken? Think about it. Seriously. You won't have to think about anything else today, I promise.

:sniper:

Nice combination drugs and guns.

I don't need a spare cock, but if you need one...

I'm a chicken 'cause I'm not afraid at night from invisible criminals and don't have a gun?

I'm not afraid of armed Americans. Should I?

We need guns so we can protect our lives, rights and property. In America we need to conserve the right to bear arms, you never know when your government or society turns tyrannical. Our forefathers knew this, that no government should be trusted with your civil rights but yourself.

We need guns so we can protect our lives, rights and property. In America we need to conserve the right to bear arms, you never know when your government or society turns tyrannical. Our forefathers knew this, that no government should be trusted with your civil rights but yourself.


Indeed.

i think the point most often missed in the gun as self defense argument is that it is a far from optimal means of doing so. and possess a 'damd if you do and damd if you don't' delima for the gun owner in any situation where it might otherwise be useful.

so no, i don't own one. anyone wanting to shoot me will just have to bring their own.

(they will also have to climb five miles up the side of a mountain covered with poison oak and wild blackberries among other things. and the trails aren't all that obvious. also my pet mountain lion ... did i mention we don't get many visitors up here, in one piece, but they sure do go good in the stew pot!)

=^^=
.../\...

i think the point most often missed in the gun as self defense argument is that it is a far from optimal means of doing so. and possess a 'damd if you do and damd if you don't' delima for the gun owner in any situation where it might otherwise be useful.

so no, i don't own one. anyone wanting to shoot me will just have to bring their own.

(they will also have to climb five miles up the side of a mountain covered with poison oak and wild blackberries among other things. and the trails aren't all that obvious. also my pet mountain lion ... did i mention we don't get many visitors up here, in one piece, but they sure do go good in the stew pot!)

=^^=
.../\...

New topic question "Why do American's feel they have the right to bear pet mountain lions?"

:D

No, if you read my entire post you would have learned that many have guns because they enjoy target practice, hunting, self defense, AND animal control.

You are simply reducing each post down to one fact and then making an absurd generalization about all gun owners. One would figure after 14 pages of posting you would at least acknowledge the validity of those who think different than you even if you did not personally endorse their beliefs.

Self defense against what? Those damn dogs? Never tried out sound? Or having other dogs?

Sure I believe you enjoy target practice and hunting. So is doing half America?

Look, I can imagine that you really need a gun. But the average american is not in your situation.

Americans are having fear for something that doesn't exist.

Sure there are criminals and yes someday one could visit your house. But
even in USA most citizen will not have that privilege.

Some in this thread said: 'protection against the government'

How many times did you need to point a gun to your governement the last 200 years? And if your government is that evil why not change the shape?

Imagine what would happen if every American has the right to have nukes...

We need guns so we can protect our lives, rights and property.

Again. You life in a warzone?

Where was you when those 2 planes crashed into WTC? And would if help?

In America we need to conserve the right to bear arms, you never know when your government or society turns tyrannical.

Did it ever happen?

Our forefathers knew this, that no government should be trusted with your civil rights but yourself.

200 years ago you had slavery has as well.

Maybe they didn't forsee, those 'holy' forefathers, that children would kill each other now. That lunatic students enter high schools and fire at wish...

Self defense against what? Those damn dogs? Never tried out sound? Or having other dogs?

Sure I believe you enjoy target practice and hunting. So is doing half America?

Look, I can imagine that you really need a gun. But the average american is not in your situation.

Americans are having fear for something that doesn't exist.

Sure there are criminals and yes someday one could visit your house. But
even in USA most citizen will not have that privilege.

Some in this thread said: 'protection against the government'

How many times did you need to point a gun to your governement the last 200 years? And if your government is that evil why not change the shape?

You would rather I "shoo" them away? Have you ever stepped outside the confines of the city limits?

Face it, at times there are no other rational options except to to kill an animal, and in the extreme situation of being threatened with imminent bodily harm or death, a human being.

I have a theory. Americans (I will generalize this so it makes you comfortable) put their undying faith in a weapon to protect them when their life is in danger while you put your undying faith in law enforcement to keep you safe from harm. I'd rather have a solution within arm's reach instead of sitting at the police station.

I would turn your fear idea around to say that American gun owners (those who have guns for protection only) are proactive in preserving their own lives while you are reactive and dependent on law enforcement to protect you.

Also, the first half of the 20th century featured two World Wars in which the gun-toting Americans saved the day. That easily could have made the idea of American gun ownership much more appealing to recent generations. Also, how else would we shoot Russian nukes out of the sky! :P

200 years ago you had slavery has as well.



You should take a history lesson about your own country. You may also want to read Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4332605.stm

I like how even non-Americans are quick to point out the horrible deeds (and indeed they were) of those who came before us. Owning another human being and protecting your own life is very different from each other.

Hunting? Sport?

(basically what Ifreann said)

Once more, for emphasis.
Woot, agreement!
....I'm a former police officer....
:eek:
*hides evidence*
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" Freud
Freud also thinks almost every mental problem is related to wanting to have sex with one of your parents. He was also a coke fiend, or so I hear.
One Post Wonder?

There are a lot of them in this thread. I suspect puppetry.

<snip>

Then how do you explain Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians etc not being gun nuts also?

Guns exist to kill. They are a weapon. Shooting targets is like racing in that it is a means to hone the skill, or show your skill, for the tools intended use.

Killing.

Killing can be good.

The bullet, in the end, is the worlds most absolute currency.

I do not advocate violence, or bloodshed, or death.

But I do live in a world of such things.


Above and beyond personal defense the gun is needed, and I do very much say NEEDED in order to defend the citizenry from tyranny.

People carry on about the inability of skirmishers to deal with a well trained well armed professional army. The iraqis are doing a bang up job of it against the worlds most formidable fighting machine.


If Russia started pounding on Europes door, to whom would the Europeans turn for aid?

They would turn to the gun toting war mongering Americans, that's who.

If the Chinese thought to invade America, from whom would they gain the greatest resistance?

From the American Armyman?

Or from the American Civilian?

Do people die from guns?

Are there accidents?

Is there crime?

Yes, it is the penalty, and a harsh one, for living in a free society. A society that very much recognizes that the cost of freedom is blood.... because again, the bullet is the absolute currency.

And sometimes the only currency that can be paid to those who would deprive you of property, liberty, and life.

Is my property more important than the intruders life?

No.

I would burn down my home, happily, if it meant saving the life of a stranger.

My SECURITY on the other hand... and the security of my family, far outweighs the life of any intruder.

They have placed themselves, and myself, in a terrible predicament.

I would shoot to kill in such an engagement, as shooting to wound may provide the assailent with time to recover and possibly shoot back.

They should not be given 'second chances'. They should not be afforded the "benefit of the doubt".

They have made the choice create an insecure environment for my family and I. They have made the choice to threaten the lives and well being of those I care for.

If the first shot merely incapacitates I would not murder in cold blood. I would notify the authorities and have them come that the intruder could be seen to.

However, should the violator die by my hand I would carry no hint of guilt, instead I would bear a mark of pride that no other would be forced to suffer the perpetrators intrusion.

If Russia started pounding on Europes door, to whom would the Europeans turn for aid?

Their own armies. that is what they exist for.



Duh.

How am I not your average American? Not every american is rich, white and has the police at his/her disposal.

I look like I am a person of violence and destruction, but I have nothing but kindness in my heart. I look like I am a stupid metal head who smokes pot(which I used t0), but I have studied American history for over 7 years and have read many auto-biographies of our great Americans.

I am very well qualified in speaking in terms of the ideals of America.

America founded by insane radicals who held their ideals of liberty above their own lives and the lives of every last man. They believed that life isn't worth living under despotism, so they stirred up a revolution and causing chaos in the streets and on ships :P George Washington would rather die a most torturous and embaressing death than live a life under british rule. The one thing our founding fathers believed in most of is the best government is the government that governs least. Which if government governs the most, our government needs to be eliminated. Destroy governmnet departments and laws justified an infringement of our rights as individuals, citizens and consumers.

Guns are easy to build, and I'm fair certain crime existed before guns.
LIES!!!





............<_< ....... >_>.....*cough* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-19_shooting_incident#Questions_from_Pan-Blue_and_counterclaims)
The second part of the first item of the list.

Their own armies. that is what they exist for.



Duh.

*snicker*

America is building a missle defense net in eastern europe... WHY?

To keep the commies out of vermont?

Fuck no.

It's to keep the commies out of Europe.

And yeah, I say Commies intentionally.

Then how do you explain Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians etc not being gun nuts also?

Because they already accepted the fact that they want to be ruled over.

We need guns so we can protect our lives, rights and property. In America we need to conserve the right to bear arms, you never know when your government or society turns tyrannical. Our forefathers knew this, that no government should be trusted with your civil rights but yourself.

Considering the Patriot Act etc. it doesn't seem to be working.

You should take a history lesson about your own country. You may also want to read Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4332605.stm

I like how even non-Americans are quick to point out the horrible deeds (and indeed they were) of those who came before us. Owning another human being and protecting your own life is very different from each other.


No, I know that those old Belgians performed those actions. So?

That's not the point. Some cover themselves by arguing : "it's in our constitution, we have the right".

I think that gun possession worked in those times. But the times changed.
Slavery was accepted at those time, now it isn't. Apartheid was ok in the sixties, now it isn't (at least not clear visible)

My point is that you don’t need a gun at all. Sure, some people still need it, but most Americans don’t.

And I just don't believe that all of them are having a gun for hunting purposes. In my country you don't hunt with AK-47 or M-16's...

Are you aware that you are paying a high price just ‘cause you want to defend an obsolete law?

Countless children are killed by the macho behaviour of some…

*snicker*

America is building a missle defense net in eastern europe... WHY?

Because America is afraid of getting attacked by the Russians. Europe, however, doesn't consider Russia a threat.

Countless children are killed by the macho behaviour of some…

I'd trade a thousand children in bodybags for a million who don't have to live in chains.

Because America is afraid of getting attacked by the Russians. Europe, however, doesn't consider Russia a threat.


You do realize it's in Europe that America is building these missile silos, right?

They kinda gave us permission...

And uh, if Europe doesn't consider Russia a threat... Europe is dumb.

My point is that you don’t need a gun at all. Sure, some people still need it, but most Americans don’t.
At last we get to your point. And how have you come to the conclusion that most Americans don't and never will need guns?

Countless children are killed by the macho behaviour of some…

What does this have to do with anything?

*snicker*

America is building a missle defense net in eastern europe... WHY?

The colour of money is red. It's just business. Do you really think such a creature as a Bush really cares about..uhm...Europeans? Come on, he doesn't care about his own people. But he likes money. Like almost everybody is doing.




To keep the commies out of vermont?

Fuck no.

It's to keep the commies out of Europe.

And yeah, I say Commies intentionally.

And even when we were armed, what would we do against trained soldiers ?

And if it happened, believe me, the guns would arrive soon.

And shooting a gun isn't that hard. It took me 5 years of university to learn something about usability in computer software. Add 3 years of private courses. (and I still know nothing)

I don't think I need 8 years of practise to pull a trigger and kill some one.

You do realize it's in Europe that America is building these missile silos, right?

They kinda gave us permission...
Poland and the Czech Republic I believe. They're not all of Europe. That's 2 countries out of 45.

And uh, if Europe doesn't consider Russia a threat... Europe is dumb.

If Russia wanted to fuck with Europe they'd disrupt the oil and gas pipelines. They wouldn't start lobbing missiles or invading. In case you haven't heard, the Cold War is over.

Because they already accepted the fact that they want to be ruled over.

And you are not? You are really free?

I'm thinking about some more than obscure Patriot Act

I'm thinking about the times when Bush went to Iraq, countless journalist lost their job just by having some critique on miss Bush his foreign politics.

I'm thinking about Guantánamo Bay.

Yes, you are really free :)

I'm thinking about the times when Bush went to Iraq, countless journalist lost their job just by having some critique on miss Bush his foreign politics.

Has this ever actaully happened?

I'd trade a thousand children in bodybags for a million who don't have to live in chains.

Seems like Borat is back at the rodeo stadium in Salem, Virginia...

Seems like Borat is back at the rodeo stadium in Salem, Virginia...

Non sequitur. At least try to make sense.

Non sequitur. At least try to make sense.

It makes perfect sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Care to explain it? I don't see what 'I'd trade a thousand children in bodybags for a million who don't have to live in chains.' has to do with Borat.

Because they already accepted the fact that they want to be ruled over.

As an Aussie, I will say that our continent is almost as large as mainland USA, with 20 million people to occupy it as opposed to their 300. Per capita, we are just as rich, but we are plain small.

We are very isolated from immediate threats, but the globe grows smaller by the year. Frankly, we have no choice but to be ruled over by bigger, stronger nations.

I'd rather be ruled over by the Chinese than the USA. Democracy, pfshaw. The Chinese have an ancient culture which makes the US look like a little kid who hasn't learnt to pee in the pot yet. Also, they are polite and do better food.

Bring a better offer or save your trash-talk for the Canadians. We honestly don't need you.

At last we get to your point. And how have you come to the conclusion that most Americans don't and never will need guns?


At least not now. I didn't say never.

'Cause your country is pretty safe. You're not faced with criminality everywhere, all the time. To me, it seems it's a reasonable rate. It is little higher as in Europe, but it is containing much more big cities as well.

I don't think that the criminality rate is very high in the US country, isn't?

It looks very similar to Europe. Only, we don't have that much guns. So are accidental shootings, school shootings, less homicides, etc...

USA is not a Columbia, Iraq or South Africa. Or is it?


What does this have to do with anything?

A lot. Did I tell you that not one single school in Belgium is having metal detectors?

Can you imagine this?

The last occupation of Belgium by hostile forces lasted until 1945.

The last land occupation of the US by hostile forces was, what, 1813ish?

The Belgians have far more of a reason to own weapons than the US, what with them being neighboured by a fair few countries that have been invaders in the not-too-distant past.

But let's not have common sense ruin your argument, eh?
Not true. You forget about WWII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Aleutian_Islands).

Japanese forces occupied American soil for nearly a year, starting in June 1942.

Non sequitur. At least try to make sense.

Watch the movie, especial the episode at the rodeo.

It makes sense.

"I hope you kill every man, woman and child in Iraq, down to the lizards,"


"And may George W. Bush drink the blood of every man, woman and child in Iraq,"