NationStates Jolt Archive

LONDON (Reuters) - Playwright Oscar Wilde, who even managed to mutter on his death bed "Either those curtains go or I do," was named in a poll on Monday as Britain's greatest wit.

He captured 20 percent of the vote, just two points ahead of comedian Spike Milligan, who had engraved on his tombstone the epitaph "I told you I was ill."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/14/AR2007101401653.html?hpid=sec-world

Ironic, because both were Irish. Anyhoo - comments?

Ireland's part of the British Isles. Even if it weren't, that wouldn't be ironic, merely erroneous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/14/AR2007101401653.html?hpid=sec-world

Ironic, because both were Irish. Anyhoo - comments?

If I remember correctly it was Britain at the time (for Wilde at least). And Ireland is still part of the British isles as the other poster said.

Ireland's part of the British Isles. Even if it weren't, that wouldn't be ironic, merely erroneous.
Erm, no, Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Neither NI nor the ROI are part of the British Isles.

Anyway - good picks, really.

Erm, no, Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Neither NI nor the ROI are part of the British Isles.

Anyway - good picks, really.

They are

They are
Thought they were part of the UKoGB... hmm... fair enough.

Thought they were part of the UKoGB... hmm... fair enough.

They aren't part of Great Britain but are part of the British Isles.

(and only NI is part of the UKoGBaNI but i'm sure thats something you knew)

Ireland's part of the British Isles. Even if it weren't, that wouldn't be ironic, merely erroneous.

Its a political term which came into usage in the 17th/18th Century.
A spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London said: “The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its useage.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article658099.ece

They aren't part of Great Britain but are part of the British Isles.

(and only NI is part of the UKoGBaNI but i'm sure thats something you knew)
Ach. Too many terms, I feel.

And yes, I know that only NI is part of UKoGBaNI, what with the ROI not exactly being our chums for the last... erm... forever.

I know I shall regret giving up my lurking and getting into this, but the British Isles is the name given to an archipelago of around 6000 islands, of which Great Britain happens to be the largest. It contains two political entities - the Republic of Ireland, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Eire were bigger than Great Britain, I'd be all in favour of renaming it to Eiran (spelling?) Isles.

I can appreciate why the Irish might not like being part of the British Isles, but it doesn't really change the fact they are. But hey, if enough people kick up a fuss, maybe they'll change the name.

Personally, I think we should rename it the Irish Isles, and tow Britain off and glue it to France. That would be nice. We'd have good food, and get things done.

A spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London said: “The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its useage.”


I don't know how the Irish should be influenced by how Ireland and Britain are called in English, since English isn't the official language of the Republic of Ireland anymore.
It would be like the French getting to determine whether "La Manche" should change its english name ("English Channel").

Anyway, geographically, Britain and Ireland are part of the continental shelf of Europe and very close - so, geographically, they're part of the same archipelago.

I don't know how the Irish should be influenced by how Ireland and Britain are called in English, since English isn't the official language of the Republic of Ireland anymore.
It would be like the French getting to determine whether "La Manche" should change its english name ("English Channel").

Anyway, geographically, Britain and Ireland are part of the continental shelf of Europe and very close - so, geographically, they're part of the same archipelago.

It still is, along with Gaelic

There are two official languages

It still is, along with Gaelic

There are two official languages

Oh gosh, silly me.

Are they going to set an official "Irish English" standard - so, just after the American English, the Aussie English etc? Or maybe they will call it "the Irish we-don't-want-to-name-them language"?
:rolleyes:
Meh. Leave English to Englishmen.

Meh. Leave English to Englishmen.

Well we would, except evidently we're better with it than they are.....

Oh gosh, silly me.

Are they going to set an official "Irish English" standard - so, just after the American English, the Aussie English etc? Or maybe they will call it "the Irish we-don't-want-to-name-them language"?
:rolleyes:
Meh. Leave English to Englishmen.

Not that I know of.

It might be a bit of a disaster to leave English to the English since only 40.8% of the Irish population say they can speak Irish and only 3.2% speak it outside of the education system

T'is on page 29 (http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/Final%20Principal%20Demographic%20Results%202006.pdf)

George Bernard Shaw, one of the other supposed great wits, was also Irish.

All the best things in the British Isles are Irish. We're awesome like that.

George Bernard Shaw, one of the other supposed great wits, was also Irish.

He was British longer than he was Irish.

He was British longer than he was Irish.

George Bernard Shaw (26 July 1856–2 November 1950) was a world-renowned Irish author.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw

At the age of ninety, George Bernard Shaw was asked by an Irish newspaper reporter to what extent he thought his mentality had been tempered by the fact that he had been born in Ireland. He responded: 'To the extent of making me a foreigner in every other country. But the position of a foreigner with complete command of the same language has great advantages. I can take an objective view of England, which no Englishman can. I could not take an objective view of Ireland.'
http://cco.cambridge.org/extract?id=ccol0521804000_CCOL0521804000A010

So wikipedia defines him as Irish, means they take one view of it. Also the fact that people living in Northern Ireland could define themselves as both Irish and British.

Also England=/=Britain

The OP was about the newspaper being wrong about Wilde being British, for both Wilde and Shaw there are strong arguments to say that such a definition is not wrong, and if it is is as much right as wrong.

isn't everyone Irish?

isn't everyone Irish?

On Paddies day? Sure!

isn't everyone Irish?

Only in the US.

isn't everyone Irish?

That would depend. Certainly many American presidential candiates spend at least some time being entirely Irish (in between being black, Jewish, Hispanic, Italian, Greek, German and any number of religons).

I have just seen that this poll has Jeremy Clarkson as the fourth wittiest - so I think we can pretty much say it is rubbish.

I know I shall regret giving up my lurking and getting into this, but the British Isles is the name given to an archipelago of around 6000 islands, of which Great Britain happens to be the largest. It contains two political entities - the Republic of Ireland, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Eire were bigger than Great Britain, I'd be all in favour of renaming it to Eiran (spelling?) Isles.

I can appreciate why the Irish might not like being part of the British Isles, but it doesn't really change the fact they are. But hey, if enough people kick up a fuss, maybe they'll change the name.

Personally, I think we should rename it the Irish Isles, and tow Britain off and glue it to France. That would be nice. We'd have good food, and get things done.

They already did the second part with the Chunnel. They should just rename the English Channel, "the Naturally Occurring Aquarium over the Anglo-Franco Turnpike."

how did this thread go from wits to geography? We are not amused, we need more quotes.

Ireland is one of the coolest places in the world. Beautiful country, beautiful people, friendly, intelligent people... and they invented Guinness. Gaelic is one of the coolest languages ever, too

Oh, and the funniest man alive (Dylan Moran) is Irish, too. So there

Ireland is one of the coolest places in the world. Beautiful country, beautiful people, friendly, intelligent people... and they invented Guinness. Gaelic is one of the coolest languages ever, too

Oh, and the funniest man alive (Dylan Moran) is Irish, too. So there

Isn't it believed that porter is from London?

At best the Irish trademarked Guiness ;)

Isn't it believed that porter is from London?

At best the Irish trademarked Guiness ;)

I don't believe the words 'The Irish invented Porter' were used :p It's still fair to say since Guinness is a form of stout but not all stouts are Guinness

So wikipedia defines him as Irish, means they take one view of it. Also the fact that people living in Northern Ireland could define themselves as both Irish and British.

Also England=/=Britain

The OP was about the newspaper being wrong about Wilde being British, for both Wilde and Shaw there are strong arguments to say that such a definition is not wrong, and if it is is as much right as wrong.

Of course they wrote their plays in England, which were set in England, for English audiences. The same way that Stan Lee is not considered a Jewish comicbook writer and Art Spiegelman is, despite both of them being Jewish and writers of comicbooks.

Of course, there is also the matter of how they considered themselves. If they wanted to think of themselves and English, and the English accepted them as members, then they were English.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/14/AR2007101401653.html?hpid=sec-world

Ironic, because both were Irish. Anyhoo - comments?

Rowan Atkinson wasn't nominated....

Hmm, anyway, Oscar Wilde is certainly an excellent choice.

Ireland is one of the coolest places in the world. Beautiful country, beautiful people, friendly, intelligent people... and they invented Guinness. Gaelic is one of the coolest languages ever, too

Oh, and the funniest man alive (Dylan Moran) is Irish, too. So there

Dylan Moran isn't the funniest man alive because he's not John Cleese.

Dylan Moran isn't the funniest man alive because he's not John Cleese.

John Cleese has been resting on his laurels a bit too much for my liking.

Dylan Moran isn’t the funniest man alive because he’s not John Cleese.
And he lives in Edinburgh.

If that has anything to do with it....

Anyhoo, Armando Iannucci tickles me pink, and thus wins.

My vote would have gone with Winston Churchill. By god, that man had a way with english.

Of course they wrote their plays in England, which were set in England, for English audiences. The same way that Stan Lee is not considered a Jewish comicbook writer and Art Spiegelman is, despite both of them being Jewish and writers of comicbooks.

Of course, there is also the matter of how they considered themselves. If they wanted to think of themselves and English, and the English accepted them as members, then they were English.
Point? They may not have considered themselves English, but it's hardly inaccurate to say they were British.

Rowan Atkinson wasn't nominated....

But how much of his Blackadder dialogue did he actually come up with? Or were you thinking of something else?

But how much of his Blackadder dialogue did he actually come up with? Or were you thinking of something else?
He's a fantastic stand-up, never mind Blackadder, Bean, et al.

Anyhoo, Armando Iannucci tickles me pink, and thus wins.

And now i'm hooked on YouTube watching him. I hope you're happy

And now i'm hooked on YouTube watching him. I hope you're happy
I am indeed.

Spread the word! Buy/steal/beg/borrow the DVD.

He's a fantastic stand-up, never mind Blackadder, Bean, et al.

Ah, I've been deprived then. I did try a wikiquote search for him before posting, but he didn't have a page.

Ah, I've been deprived then. I did try a wikiquote search for him before posting, but he didn't have a page.
His 1986 live show is hilarious. Here's (http://youtube.com/watch?v=eJA9RPX9mRY) the intro, the rest is somewheres on Youtube, or in its entirety elsewhere on the web.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/14/AR2007101401653.html?hpid=sec-world

Ironic, because both were Irish. Anyhoo - comments?

While that may be technically true, I don't think of Wilde as Irish the way I think of Joyce, Yeats, or Roddy Doyle. And because he lived much of his life in Britain, I suspect the people choosing thought the same way.
It's like thinking of T.S. Eliot as an English poet.

I have just seen that this poll has Jeremy Clarkson as the fourth wittiest - so I think we can pretty much say it is rubbish.
Also, William Shakespeare is eighth. Have you seen/read A Midsummer Night's Dream? Even if you had the combined forces of Monty Python, Peter Cook and the cast of Blackadder performing it it wouldn't be funny.

And Margaret Thatcher is 12th! Now I know who voted in this poll...The Blessed Chris. :p

Point? They may not have considered themselves English, but it's hardly inaccurate to say they were British.

Despite the fact they were Irish?

I can understand the Saxon claiming them as part of the empire, but britian is an island, which they werent from.

Brits always claim the best of Irish. Barry McGuigan, Irish born Irish citizen living in Ireland in the words of the BBC went into the ring as the great hope of British boxing and left it the defeated Irish man.

Nothing new or interesting going on here.

I don't know much about Barry Mcguigan, but googling his name says that he took up British Citizenship, so I don't really see the problem. If he'd taken American citizenship I can't imagine people complaining about his being referred to as an American.

Likewise with Spike Milligan and Oscar Wilde. Both India and Ireland were British when they were born, Ireland both politically and geographically and both spent most of their lives in Great Britain itself. And Great Britain =/= Britain anyway.

Not that i really care whether they are included as British for the purpose of this survey because i feel they both fall some way behind Churchill in the wit stakes.

I have just seen that this poll has Jeremy Clarkson as the fourth wittiest - so I think we can pretty much say it is rubbish.

Much as I like him, I have to admit that result did surprise me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPWDglTboI

Despite the fact they were Irish?

I can understand the Saxon claiming them as part of the empire, but britian is an island, which they werent from.

Brits always claim the best of Irish. Barry McGuigan, Irish born Irish citizen living in Ireland in the words of the BBC went into the ring as the great hope of British boxing and left it the defeated Irish man.

Nothing new or interesting going on here.

British is the general term for someone from the UK. Irish can mean anyone from Ireland as a whole. They're not mutually exclusive, someone from Northern Ireland can be both for example.

Wilde, Shaw, were both born in Ireland when it was part of the UK, and spent the majority of their lives within the UK. In Wilde's case he spent all his life living in the UK as it was then. It's hardly a stretch to claim them as British. Even less for McGuigan if he took up UK citizenship.

Much as I like him, I have to admit that result did surprise me.

:eek::eek:

You like him too! I thought I was the only one in the world who also found him quite entertaining!

Shakespeare only made it to number 8? I am shocked and appalled. People need to read more Shakespeare.

Also, William Shakespeare is eighth. Have you seen/read A Midsummer Night's Dream? Even if you had the combined forces of Monty Python, Peter Cook and the cast of Blackadder performing it it wouldn't be funny.*shuns*

Much as I like him, I have to admit that result did surprise me.
just shows what a popularity contest these things are. People just say whoever they can remember, which means whoever's got the most TV exposure currently.
Similarly, when the vox pop were asked for the most Britons of all time, Princess Diana came in 3rd(:eek:) ahead of Darwin, Shakespeare and Newton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Britons

I don't know much about Barry Mcguigan, but googling his name says that he took up British Citizenship, so I don't really see the problem. If he'd taken American citizenship I can't imagine people complaining about his being referred to as an American.

Likewise with Spike Milligan and Oscar Wilde. Both India and Ireland were British when they were born, Ireland both politically and geographically and both spent most of their lives in Great Britain itself. And Great Britain =/= Britain anyway.

Not that i really care whether they are included as British for the purpose of this survey because i feel they both fall some way behind Churchill in the wit stakes.

Barry McGuigan took up UK citizenship after his boxing carreer ended and he moved to England. The infamous Carpenter quote was when he was living in Monaghan.

The Brits always try and claim our best and brightest. Its flattering, but tedious.

This classic happened on the BBC also:

KATE THORNTON: Now lets talk about Colin because in the UK he’s become the man of the moment.

SAMUEL L.JACKSON: Really? Only in the UK?

KT: Well everywhere but we kind of claim him as our own because he’s from Ireland.

SLJ: You can’t claim him because he’s from Ireland.

KT: Well we do because it’s close by. (laughter)

SLJ: Ok. That’s the source of all the conflict over there. You people always claiming the Irish as yours. We got a little problem just like that here called slavery but that’s ok we don’t need to talk about that so lets go. (more laughter)

KT: Well Colin is a very well paid slave.

SLJ: Ok good.

KT: As are you.

SLJ: Yeah all right.
But this nonsense And Great Britain =/= Britain anyway cant go unchallenged.

Barry McGuigan took up UK citizenship after his boxing carreer ended and he moved to England. The infamous Carpenter quote was when he was living in Monaghan.

The Brits always try and claim our best and brightest. Its flattering, but tedious.

This classic happened on the BBC also:

KATE THORNTON: Now lets talk about Colin because in the UK he’s become the man of the moment.

SAMUEL L.JACKSON: Really? Only in the UK?

KT: Well everywhere but we kind of claim him as our own because he’s from Ireland.

SLJ: You can’t claim him because he’s from Ireland.

KT: Well we do because it’s close by. (laughter)

SLJ: Ok. That’s the source of all the conflict over there. You people always claiming the Irish as yours. We got a little problem just like that here called slavery but that’s ok we don’t need to talk about that so lets go. (more laughter)

KT: Well Colin is a very well paid slave.

SLJ: Ok good.

KT: As are you.

SLJ: Yeah all right.
But this nonsense And Great Britain =/= Britain anyway cant go unchallenged.
Fair enough. If the comment was made before his British citizenship then referring to him as British was wrong. Ditto the Kate Thornton one. In fact I've no idea why you really brought that up, although that particular clip does seem to get far more air time than it merits. It's like you're trying to make a generalisation from the comments of one presenter from an entertainment show, chosen for her looks rather than brains. Just to clarify, I don't feel in any way represented by the comments of Kate Thornton in that instance.

But I don't see how either of the two examples are relevant to the case of Oscar Wilde. Colin Farrell and McGuigan, born in the ROI, had spent their lives in Ireland and were Irish citizens. Wilde was born in the UK, spent almost all his life in the UK and had British citizenship. It doesn't mean he wasn't Irish, it's just he was also British.