NationStates Jolt Archive

Imagine the shock of growing up in a loving family with people you call "Mum" and "Dad" and then, suddenly, learning that you are actually adopted!

This same sense of shock came as scientists announced that the Sun, the Moon, our planet and its siblings, were not born into the familiar band of stars known as the Milky Way galaxy, but we actually belong to a strange formation with the unfamiliar name of the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy!

How can this be?

Using volumes of data from the Two-Micron All Sky Survey (2MASS), a major project to survey the sky in infrared light led by the University of Massachusetts, the astronomers are answering questions that have baffled scientists for decades and proving that our own Milky Way is consuming one of its neighbors in a dramatic display of ongoing galactic cannibalism. The study published in the Astrophysical Journal, is the first to map the full extent of the Sagittarius galaxy and show in visually vivid detail how its debris wraps around and passes through our Milky Way. Sagittarius is 10,000 times smaller in mass than the Milky Way, so it is getting stretched out, torn apart and gobbled up by the bigger Milky Way.

A new infra red digital survey of the entire sky was made in 2003. Teams from the universities of Virginia and Massachusetts used a supercomputer to sort through half a billion stars to create a -- NEW STAR MAP showing our Solar System (yellow circle) to be at the exact nexus crossroads where two galaxies are actually joining.
http://www.viewzone.com/milkyway.html


Pretty interesting stuff. Granted, the news has spawned some crackpot theories in the time it's been out, but still, interesting stuff.

Thoughts?

Forcibly adopted it seems. :p
Kidnapped even.

The Milky Way will always be my home though.

Forcibly adopted it seems. :p
Kidnapped even.

The Milky Way will always be my home though.

Apparently it always has been:

A website called Viewzone recently posted an article claiming that scientists have determined the Sun is not native to the Milky Way Galaxy, but instead was absorbed by the Milky Way while eating a smaller dwarf galaxy.

There’s just one eensy weensy problem with this: it’s totally wrong.

Here’s how the writer from Viewzone sets this up; I have synopsized but kept his argument intact:

1) The Milky Way is eating a smaller galaxy, called the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy.

2) Because this galaxy has far less mass than our own, the Milky Way has far stronger gravity. This has destroyed the other galaxy, turning it into a long stream of stars.

3) This stream is at an angle to the plane of the Milky Way’s disk, and intersects that disk.

4) The Sun is very near the position of this intersection. The odds of this happening are very low.

5) Therefore, the Sun originally came from the dwarf galaxy, and is not originally from the Milky Way.

I’m not exaggerating their claim at all. They make it very clear, saying:

We actually belong to the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy.

As with most pseudoscientific claims, this one has some truth to it. The Milky Way is indeed cannibalizing another, smaller galaxy. The MW is bigger, and so its gravity did rip the smaller galaxy up, turning into a long ribbon or stream of stars. It does intersect the MW, and the Sun is in fact near this intersection point.

But their conclusion — that we come from the Sagittarius Dwarf — is complete nonsense. Here’s why.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/06/27/is-the-sun-from-another-galaxy

Apologies guys. :(

Apparently it always has been:


http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/06/27/is-the-sun-from-another-galaxy

Apologies guys. :(

:eek:

AUGH! First I think I am part of a loving family, then they go and say I'm adopted!? Then it turns out it was all a cruel lie! How can I live with this!? :confused:

*flies off to live with distant relative galaxy*

well OK fine but if we're right there we must have some adopted brothers and sisters.

(since im not going to look at the link) what stars in the night sky do come from this sagitarius galaxy?

well OK fine but if we're right there we must have some adopted brothers and sisters.

(since im not going to look at the link) what stars in the night sky do come from this sagitarius galaxy?

The original article is incorrect, we have always been in the Milky Way Galaxy, this other galaxy is just getting sucked into the MW one, near where we are.

The original article is incorrect, we have always been in the Milky Way Galaxy, this other galaxy is just getting sucked into the MW one, near where we are.

yeah i got that. but if we are right there where this other galaxy is being sucked into the milky way there must be some stars in the night sky that are now in the milky way but originated in the other galaxy.

yeah i got that. but if we are right there where this other galaxy is being sucked into the milky way there must be some stars in the night sky that are now in the milky way but originated in the other galaxy.

Ah.. gotcha.

No idea. Now I have the vague worry that some planet the size of Jupiter is going to get sucked into the milky way and collide with Earth. But this is obviously a really slow process or over a really large span of space.

Ah.. gotcha.

No idea. Now I have the vague worry that some planet the size of Jupiter is going to get sucked into the milky way and collide with Earth. But this is obviously a really slow process or over a really large span of space.

theres gotta be some kind of bad ramifications of sucking in another galaxy, doesnt there? maybe the jupiter like disaster will happen in another solar system.

theres gotta be some kind of bad ramifications of sucking in another galaxy, doesnt there? maybe the jupiter like disaster will happen in another solar system.

Well keep in mind that, despite these things happening at incredible speeds, we're still talking about HUGE astronomical distances. The odds of this sort of collision are very small. However, a direct collision isn't necessary to really mess things up. Get another solar system close enough, and the gravitational field of the other solar system could COULD have some negative effect.

Well keep in mind that, despite these things happening at incredible speeds, we're still talking about HUGE astronomical distances. The odds of this sort of collision are very small. However, a direct collision isn't necessary to really mess things up. Get another solar system close enough, and the gravitational field of the other solar system could COULD have some negative effect.

True, especially if a black hole or red-giant is involved.

On a somewhat related note.. Does every galaxy have a black hole?

If so, there may be some sort of renewal cycle with galaxies. Exploding dust-stars and planets- gets sucked into black hole- expands again.

theres gotta be some kind of bad ramifications of sucking in another galaxy, doesnt there? maybe the jupiter like disaster will happen in another solar system.

Well even the guy refuting what the original article says there is a very slim chance that we are from the Sagittarius Galaxy however very slim according to his calculations. He also mentioned that we do have stars in the night sky from the Sagittarius Galaxy but he didn't mention which.

So we just sorta wandered into the Milky Way? Funny. :p

I don't understand why people would care so much about what galaxy we're from, it'll have nothing to do with people's normal lives, so why do people care so much? Scientifically it has meaning, sure, but to the average person on the street, I don't think this should be a big deal either way.

True, especially if a black hole or red-giant is involved.

On a somewhat related note.. Does every galaxy have a black hole?

If so, there may be some sort of renewal cycle with galaxies. Exploding dust-stars and planets- gets sucked into black hole- expands again.

You'd have to ask an astrophysicist, like Dakini, but it's my understanding that the present theory is that all spiral and similarly ordered galaxies have a supermassive black hole (SMBH) at their center, and its activity/dormancy determines generally the energy output of the galaxy (matter accreting into the black hole releases tremendous amounts of energy). This is also presently what is believed quasars are, SMBHs that are actively consuming matter.

However, smaller black holes can probably be found in every galaxy that ever had massive stars (I believe the threshold is something like 10-15 solar masses, above which they are likely to collapse into black holes as they reach the end of their lifespans. But don't quote me on that number.)

So we just sorta wandered into the Milky Way? Funny. :p

Its Milk Shake brought us all to the Yard.

ARE WE EVEN PART OF ANY GALAXY?!?!?! I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE ANYMORE! *flings self into black hole*

Very interesting. I love space because it's so fascinating. There's so much out there that even our imaginations conjure.

I don't understand why people would care so much about what galaxy we're from, it'll have nothing to do with people's normal lives, so why do people care so much? Scientifically it has meaning, sure, but to the average person on the street, I don't think this should be a big deal either way.

Its an interesting fact. I am an average person...though I am not currently 'on the street', and I think it is an *intrieiaeuiging concept.

*epic spelling phail

You'd have to ask an astrophysicist, like Dakini, but it's my understanding that the present theory is that all spiral and similarly ordered galaxies have a supermassive black hole (SMBH) at their center, and its activity/dormancy determines generally the energy output of the galaxy (matter accreting into the black hole releases tremendous amounts of energy). This is also presently what is believed quasars are, SMBHs that are actively consuming matter.

However, smaller black holes can probably be found in every galaxy that ever had massive stars (I believe the threshold is something like 10-15 solar masses, above which they are likely to collapse into black holes as they reach the end of their lifespans. But don't quote me on that number.)

Makes sense, some force has to act on materiel to form any sort of consistent pattern. It is all mind boggling and enticing at the same time.

I sort of overlooked it at first, but(from the article):

Imagine the shock of growing up in a loving family with people you call "Mum" and "Dad" and then, suddenly, learning that you are actually adopted!

This same sense of shock came as scientists announced that the Sun, the Moon, our planet and its siblings,

I don't recall being at all surprised or concerned when I learned I'd been adopted. Maybe it's unthinkable to people who weren't, but I wasn't at all affected by that fact. :p But maybe I'm an odd case.

I sort of overlooked it at first, but(from the article):

I don't recall being at all surprised or concerned when I learned I'd been adopted. Maybe it's unthinkable to people who weren't, but I wasn't at all affected by that fact. :p But maybe I'm an odd case.

I don't think I would freak out if I was told. It hardly matters, unless you really really have problems with your current parents and think that being adopted is the reason. It would concern me about as much as if my parents said "I'm sorry Bob....your real name is...Robert."

Edit: Though you always were an odd case. :p

Makes sense, some force has to act on materiel to form any sort of consistent pattern. It is all mind boggling and enticing at the same time.

From what I understand, that's actually a little cart-before-the-horse.

Essentially, it's much like the formation of our sun here in the solar system. The gas that formed out solar system collected into a rotating clump, spread in a plane about an axis of rotation. As it collected, the center necessarily became more massive and dense than the outlying areas of the disk. Over time, the intense pressures acting on this central, growing clump of gas caused it to kick into a serious of fusion reactions that grew until it became our sun. Over time the dust remnants rotating the newly formed sun then condensed under their own local, significantly smaller pressures, into planets, moons, asteroids, etc.

Similarly, I'd guess that the SMBH at the center of our own galaxy was created from the combining of multiple smaller black holes (yes, this happens. They are attracted to one another by the force of gravity, and combine into a larger black hole) formed from massive stars that were created in the much more densely packed galactic center.

So what keeps us rotating around the center is the SMBH now, but it wasn't always this way.

I sort of overlooked it at first, but(from the article):



I don't recall being at all surprised or concerned when I learned I'd been adopted. Maybe it's unthinkable to people who weren't, but I wasn't at all affected by that fact. :p But maybe I'm an odd case.

Hee. I sorta overlooked that part as frills, but I guess it is a little silly. I'd probably be just as unconcerned.

I don't think I would freak out if I was told. It hardly matters, unless you really really have problems with your current parents and think that being adopted is the reason. It would concern me about as much as if my parents said "I'm sorry Bob....your real name is...Robert."

Edit: Though you always were an odd case. :p

Out of curiosity, what was your previous account name?

From what I understand, that's actually a little cart-before-the-horse.

Essentially, it's much like the formation of our sun here in the solar system. The gas that formed out solar system collected into a rotating clump, spread in a plane about an axis of rotation. As it collected, the center necessarily became more massive and dense than the outlying areas of the disk. Over time, the intense pressures acting on this central, growing clump of gas caused it to kick into a serious of fusion reactions that grew until it became our sun. Over time the dust remnants rotating the newly formed sun then condensed under their own local, significantly smaller pressures, into planets, moons, asteroids, etc.

Similarly, I'd guess that the SMBH at the center of our own galaxy was created from the combining of multiple smaller black holes (yes, this happens. They are attracted to one another by the force of gravity, and combine into a larger black hole) formed from massive stars that were created in the much more densely packed galactic center.

So what keeps us rotating around the center is the SMBH now, but it wasn't always this way.

Ah.. The Galaxy gave rise to the system that now controls it.. Like we created Capitalism. Coincidence?

This is all so vast in scope, my mind feels like it has expanded. Yay.

Out of curiosity, what was your previous account name?

*squints, motions with finger*
Come closer...
*sighs*
Closer damnit!

Alright..*speaks relatively loudly* Going backwards from this point in time, I was Walker_Texas_Ranger, Widferand, Widfarend, and Phaelemium(sp?).

:)

Ah.. The Galaxy gave rise to the system that now controls it.. Like we created Capitalism. Coincidence?

This is all so vast in scope, my mind feels like it has expanded. Yay.

The universe at large can be pretty awe-inspiring. If the professor I presently work for (and who taught two of my physics core classes so far) wasn't also the astro advisor here, and if I hadn't intended to go for the more application-oriented optics stuff, I'd have considered specializing in it.

*squints, motions with finger*
Come closer...
*sighs*
Closer damnit!

Alright..*speaks relatively loudly* Going backwards from this point in time, I was Walker_Texas_Ranger, Widferand, Widfarend, and Phaelemium(sp?).

:)

Cool. I recognize Widfarend. I just like to be able to go "Oh hey, that guy." when I encounter someone who's an old poster with a new face.

The universe at large can be pretty awe-inspiring. If the professor I presently work for (and who taught two of my physics core classes so far) wasn't also the astro advisor here, and if I hadn't intended to go for the more application-oriented optics stuff, I'd have considered specializing in it.


Cool. I recognize Widfarend. I just like to be able to go "Oh hey, that guy." when I encounter someone who's an old poster with a new face.
Heh.

I plan on majoring in Environmental Studies, but I have always found the universe and how it may or may not work, to be quite interesting.

Aye, I like to be recognized as well as recognize. Luckily all you older more stable posters have made the latter relatively simple. I recognize you for one.

Heh.

I plan on majoring in Environmental Studies, but I have always found the universe and how it may or may not work, to be quite interesting.

Aye, I like to be recognized as well as recognize. Luckily all you older more stable posters have made the latter relatively simple. I recognize you for one.

I'm glad to hear it. On both counts :)

Its an interesting fact. I am an average person...though I am not currently 'on the street', and I think it is an *intrieiaeuiging concept.

*epic spelling phail

I didn't mean that it wasn't a very interesting fact, but that it seems that too many people seem to be shocked that when new ideas are introduced that don't change anything in their lives. The scales are so vastly different, that even if the sun is part of a different galaxy, it doesn't have an effect on the earth going around the sun and the people going around on the earth.

Bah. The smarter question is asking what relevance does this even have, not if it happened.



Space is something we should focus on after solving our problems on earth.