NationStates Jolt Archive

heya all

So as the title suggests one of my mates has come out so to speak and well were all kind of worried about him. He is intensely ashamed of how he feels and has considered killing himself. We all grew up in a catholic community and no one here would ever harm him but gossip and all that kind of crap can sometimes be more 'effective'. His family are awsome but he still hasn't told them and to be honest i don't know how they will react. His Dad and Mum are really cool but devout as are his brothers and sisters.

Anyone else out there had to try and help someone through this kind of stuff? We tried just being mates for him but he is slowly pushing us away we keep inviting him out and all that but he has stopped coming along, im getting the impression that nothing much but time will help but there has to be something we can do to make it slightly easier for him?

Cheers in advance
Santhar

He ought to roll out of town and go some place sane...

Well, he could always become part of the clergy and keep celibate. There's no sin that way, obviously, and he could help others with their problems. That is, if he's determined to stay within the faith. Short of an exorcism, he's pretty much heading toward committing an unnatural act if he's going to be gay and not restrain himself. Sort of a conflict for a religious person, I could imagine.

I suggest you talk to Skaladora. He's the one who made a thread answering questions about homosexuality. He may have some good advice for you in order to help your mate. :)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=540278

He will work through it in time, just make sure that you, and the rest of his friends, continually remind him that you're there for him and don't judge him. What age is he? If he's fairly young, then his feelings will probably pass within a short few years, since he's already had the courage to come out - he simply has to build on that. If he's a bit older, then it may take a bit longer, since he's repressed it for so long (possibly out of fear).

Well, he could always become part of the clergy and keep celibate. There's no sin that way, obviously, and he could help others with their problems. That is, if he's determined to stay within the faith. Short of an exorcism, he's pretty much heading toward committing an unnatural act if he's going to be gay and not restrain himself. Sort of a conflict for a religious person, I could imagine.

Yeah, and after he's suppressed his sexuality with shame, guilt and religious asceticism, and given it sufficient time to fester and become warped in such an unhealthy environment as is the Catholic church, he can perhaps become one of their child-abusing priests and get to see the world when his acts are covered up and he is transferred to different places time and time again? Peachy.

For Santhar, your best bet is to save him from religion and not give up on letting him know he's not alone.

He will work through it in time, just make sure that you, and the rest of his friends, continually remind him that you're there for him and don't judge him. What age is he? If he's fairly young, then his feelings will probably pass within a short few years, since he's already had the courage to come out - he simply has to build on that. If he's a bit older, then it may take a bit longer, since he's repressed it for so long (possibly out of fear).

This is actually good advice.

I don't know your friend, so I don't know what will be best for him personally, but I know what a friend of mine wanted in a similar situation.

He was gay and Catholic, too, and he came out when we were in high school. A few years later, he told me that he really liked how I never treated him different after he came out, and how I never really brought up the subject.

I hadn't thought about it at the time. I just didn't care if he was gay or straight or whatever. He was my friend, and the only times I cared who he was attracted to was when we were gossiping or sharing dating stories or whatever. I didn't care if the person he was attracted to was a boy or a girl, I just cared about whether they were cute and fun and whether he stole a first kiss and all that.

My friend told me that the hardest part about coming out was how everybody treated him differently after, and how everything always had to be about the fact that he was gay. Even the people who were trying to be nice were always on edge about it. They started assuming that everything in his life revolved around being gay.

Treat your friend the same as you always have. He may need to push you away for a little bit, because he's probably got a lot to sort out. Just let him know that you still want to hang out and be friends. If he feels like talking to you then it would be great for you to listen, but he probably would rather just have somebody who will be his buddy.

Yeah, and after he's suppressed his sexuality with shame, guilt and religious asceticism, and given it sufficient time to fester and become warped in such an unhealthy environment as is the Catholic church, he can perhaps become one of their child-abusing priests and get to see the world when his acts are covered up and he is transferred to different places time and time again? Peachy.

For Santhar, your best bet is to save him from religion and not give up on letting him know he's not alone.

Yes, because of course all homosexuals are just repressed pedophiles and religion is the root of all evil. :mad:

I'm gay and Christian (though not Catholic). What works for me is remembering that God loves me. He made me this way, and He's not going to punish me for being who He made me to be.

Is he religious himself or is it just his surrounding that is?

If he is religious... Believing that God hates you can't be easy, if he continues to believe that he will either continue to hate and suppress himself or turn the tables to hate God instead and be left with a sore scar of bitterness towards everything that can be associated with his Catholic upbringing. Find a liberal church that understands gays and talk to a priest or youth leader there about how you can help your mate. He needs to get over that silly idea that he should be ashamed of himself and understand that in God's eyes he is worth just as much as anyone else. Even if that anyone happens to be self righteous enough to go around calling others sinners even though they are surely a sinner themselves.

you and your (non gay) friends might consider taking to task anyone who spreads rumors about him and stopping any anti-gay comments you might start hearing. im thinking that knowing that your friends have your back is a great feeling when you are in crisis.

Take him for a week stay at Castro Street in San Fransisco CA, and show him that it's ok to be gay, surround him with people like him, people he can relate to.

This above all, to thine own self be true. Everything else builds on that. Kudos to your friend for coming out with the truth. No shame at all there.

You were his friend before he "came out," don't let that change. Sexuality isn't anything to break up a friendship over.

Let him know it's his life, it is what it is, follow it! Stick with him.

heya all

So as the title suggests one of my mates has come out so to speak and well were all kind of worried about him. He is intensely ashamed of how he feels and has considered killing himself. We all grew up in a catholic community and no one here would ever harm him but gossip and all that kind of crap can sometimes be more 'effective'. His family are awsome but he still hasn't told them and to be honest i don't know how they will react. His Dad and Mum are really cool but devout as are his brothers and sisters.

Anyone else out there had to try and help someone through this kind of stuff? We tried just being mates for him but he is slowly pushing us away we keep inviting him out and all that but he has stopped coming along, im getting the impression that nothing much but time will help but there has to be something we can do to make it slightly easier for him?

Cheers in advance
Santhar
Ask him what his favorite Madonna album is.

Base your next actions on his reply.

People have already said it, but I'll just agree. The best thing you can do for your friend is remain his friend. Don't let the fact that he is gay change anything about that and make sure that he knows you're there for him if he needs you and that you still want to spend time with him.

Yeah, and after he's suppressed his sexuality with shame, guilt and religious asceticism, and given it sufficient time to fester and become warped in such an unhealthy environment as is the Catholic church, he can perhaps become one of their child-abusing priests and get to see the world when his acts are covered up and he is transferred to different places time and time again? Peachy.
…

I'm surprised to find out that you think homosexual desires can be turned into pedophilia. I was under the impression that most of the homosexual adults in this forum said one has nothing to do with the other.

If a heterosexual person can become celibate (the vast majority of nuns and priests) I don't see why a homosexual person would turn into a pervert because of celibacy. I think you came to a bigoted/sweeping conclusion there.

Here's the deal:

Nothing changed. He hasn't changed one bit. He's exactly the same person he was before he admitted his preferential attraction to the same sex. He was your friend then, and he's your friend now. I commend you for remembering that. I think your friend might be having trouble realizing that about himself...

...or... He thinks you pity him...

...or... perhaps he is attracted to one of you and is afraid of the reaction.

The last two of these can be awkward. The only real cure is time. He has to know you're not willing to abandon your friendship so easily.

Also; don't be afraid to joke about it. We rib our friends about everything. We know we don't do so in a malicious manner. If you can't do so about homosexuality, then maybe it is more bothersome than it seems.

All desires can be turned into paedophilia with sufficient help from the Catholic church and its shame and repression techniques. It just focuses a lot more on its gay clergy to be, and does so at a very, very young age from the pulpit already.



You really think they're celibate? How naïve.



They won't become perverts because of celibacy, silly. They'll become perverts because of Catholicism and religion in general.


You really didn't learn anything from last time did you?

You really didn't learn anything from last time did you?

Story of your life.

I'm surprised to find out that you think homosexual desires can be turned into pedophilia. I was under the impression that most of the homosexual adults in this forum said one has nothing to do with the other.

If a heterosexual person can become celibate (the vast majority of nuns and priests) I don't see why a homosexual person would turn into a pervert because of celibacy. I think you came to a bigoted/sweeping conclusion there.

As a general rule, a heterosexula person who enters the priesthood is not effectively entering a profession that tells him that his desires are wrong. In the eyes of catholicism, heterosexal celibacy is shown as an honorable choice, a reverence to god, and one to be expected and admired.

Homosexual celibacy is on the other hand shown to be the only thing keeping you from hell. Working in a profession that promulgates the belief that you are a horrible and evil person can warp someone in enough time.

Catholicism doesn't lay on the guilt to heterosexuals as it does to homosexuals, and living with that can cause someone to twist up pretty easily.

All desires can be turned into paedophilia with sufficient help from the Catholic church and its shame and repression techniques. It just focuses a lot more on its gay clergy to be, and does so at a very, very young age from the pulpit already.

All desires can be turned into paedophilia? Really? So sexual urges are all about conditioning and choices then is it?

Kind of like blaming homosexual males on the relationship with their mother's is it?

You really think they're celibate? How naïve.

How tin foil hat of you.

They won't become perverts because of celibacy, silly. They'll become perverts because of Catholicism and religion in general.

Again, more with the 'turning' them into something they don't already want to be. If your theory is correct, that sexual lusts and desires can be manipulated, then you must agree that anti-homosexual teen camps could work then if they could figure out the right 'triggers.' If we can manipulate some desires we should be able to manipulate them the way we want them to go.

I'm surprised to find out that you think homosexual desires can be turned into pedophilia. I was under the impression that most of the homosexual adults in this forum said one has nothing to do with the other.

If a heterosexual person can become celibate (the vast majority of nuns and priests) I don't see why a homosexual person would turn into a pervert because of celibacy. I think you came to a bigoted/sweeping conclusion there.

You know, at first I had the same thought you did.

But most homosexuals who join the clergy do so not primarily out of their desire to serve God, but to hide from the 'shameful' sexual desires they have. That form of repression is a recipe for disaster. Heterosexuals can repress too, and often join the clergy to do so if they have sexual fantasies that generate guilt and shame.

I think it's the 'hiding from shame' aspect Fass is referring to. That, and his rabid animosity toward all things religious. :p

As a general rule, a heterosexula person who enters the priesthood is not effectively entering a profession that tells him that his desires are wrong. In the eyes of catholicism, heterosexal celibacy is shown as an honorable choice, a reverence to god, and one to be expected and admired.

Homosexual celibacy is on the other hand shown to be the only thing keeping you from hell. Working in a profession that promulgates the belief that you are a horrible and evil person can warp someone in enough time.

Catholicism doesn't lay on the guilt to heterosexuals as it does to homosexuals, and living with that can cause someone to twist up pretty easily.


The desire to stay celibate is the same. It is taught that, committing heterosexual adultery/fornication will send you to hell too.

All desires can be turned into paedophilia? Really? So sexual urges are all about conditioning and choices then is it?

Paraphilias are all about pathology, and one such aetiology - one actually quite known seeing as paedophilia has an overrepresentation among those who have suffered abuse - is environment.

Kind of like blaming homosexual males on the relationship with their mother's is it?

You're confusing paraphilias with sexual orientations. Get educated, and then get back to me.

How tin foil hat of you.

Nope, how ungullible of me.

Again, more with the 'turning' them into something they don't already want to be. If your theory is correct, that sexual lusts and desires be manipulated, then you must agree that anti-homosexual teen camps could work then if they could figure out the right 'triggers.' If we can manipulate some desires we should be able to manipulate them the way we want them to go.

There you are again confusing sexual orientations with paraphilias, and thus making no point or sense whatsoever.

The desire to stay celibate is the same. It is taught that, committing heterosexual adultery/fornication will send you to hell too.

As much fun as discussing the finer points of why Catholic priesthood rules sucks is, this is kind of a derail. That said no one says you're going to hell for getting married as a Catholic.

Santhar, you and your mates are to be commended for treating your friend no differently than before. I'll echo the good advice already given, the best thing you can do for him is demonstrate that his sexuality is not an issue to you. He's the same person as always. I imagine it must be rough having him withdraw, but keep doing what you are doing!

You know, at first I had the same thought you did.

But most homosexuals who join the clergy do so not primarily out of their desire to serve God, but to hide from the 'shameful' sexual desires they have. That form of repression is a recipe for disaster. Heterosexuals can repress too, and often join the clergy to do so if they have sexual fantasies that generate guilt and shame.

I think it's the 'hiding from shame' aspect Fass is referring to. That, and his rabid animosity toward all things religious. :p

I don't know if it is 'most' or not. I don't know how we could know such a thing.

I suggest that it's the pedophilian that joins the church to hide his shame and guilt, OR just joins to gain trust and to get in close contact with children, not the non-pedophilia homosexuals or heterosexual, that becomes pedophiles while they are in the church.

...
You're confusing paraphilias with sexual orientations. Get educated, and then get back to me.

...

There you are again confusing sexual orientations with paraphilias, and thus making no point or sense whatsoever.


YOU are the one that said homosexuals would be turned into perverts/pedophiles, not I. I'm arguing against it and your arugment. Please read your own position please, then get back to me.

YOU are the one that said homosexuals would be turned into perverts/pedophiles, not I. I'm arguing against it and your arugment. Please read your own position please, then get back to me.

You're not arguing against my argument. You're arguing against some ignorant misrepresentation of my argument that you concocted in your head, where you don't know much about paraphilias and how those are indeed influenced by environment, and then just think you're arguing against my argument when in fact all you're doing is showing me how little you know.

take him out for pizza, just you and him. Or grab a movie.

Basically, treat him no different than any other friend who is having a hard time. Make sure he knows that he has a good friend who still loves him.

Personally, when I was in a situation where my friend came out, the conversation went something like this
"Hey...um...I got something I want to tell you, but I'm not really sure what you're going to say about it"
"Ah...one of 'those' talks. What's up?"
"I haven't really told anyone else this but...well"
"...uh huh..."
"I'm gay"
"K. So...pizza?"
"...that's it?"
"Sorry...this was kinda short notice and I didn't have time to book the fireworks"
"I hate you"
"You love me and you know it. Now, as I said. Pizza?"

When I talked to him about it later, I told him I didn't care who he slept with or dated. He was still one of my best friends, and that wasn't changing. We grabbed pizza, and the only time it ever came up again was when he asked if I would be there when he told some other people.

Actually, I talked to him about it recently, and he said the one thing that helped him was that, when we were in a big group and I noticed him looking down, I would give him a punch on the arm or put him in a choke hold. What he said was that, while everyone else saw two guys being mildly retarded, he knew I was keeping an eye on him...the chokehold was me giving him a "hug" of sorts, which made him feel all the more special because no one else knew that was what I was doing.

Basically, find something that makes the guy feel special and loved. It's usually the smallest things and dumbest things, but that is exactly what he needs.

If a heterosexual person can become celibate (the vast majority of nuns and priests) I don't see why a homosexual person would turn into a pervert because of celibacy. I think you came to a bigoted/sweeping conclusion there.

Actually Catholic church currently is okay with priests who are homosexual, as long as they "never act on it", kinda like the USA army currently... >_>

That said, I think your friend needs to realize a couple of things:

1. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that homosexualism is bad. And I mean NOWHERE. If you bring up Sodoma and Gomorra, I suggest you read closer. It's about not showing travelers hospitability that those cities are punished for. And "not spilling your seed in vain" means everything from wet dreams to masturbation to using a condom, so that's not applicabble in modern world either.

2. Just because people say being gay is bad, doesn't mean god thought the same way. God wouldn't have made your friend gay if He didn't think it was okay to be gay.

3. Any bullshit about "curing homosexuality" is exactly that: bullshit.

4. Tell him to get online and explore the Internet. There's tons of stuff, even from/for religious folks about being gay and how to deal with the related issues, etc. Your friend seriously needs to devote some time to finding out about who he is. It's not bad to be gay. :)

EDIT: I myself don't believe in the Christian God or church (it's sometimes hard to tell which the priests want you to believe in), but my replies are based on solid facts and some harassment from my part on "truly religious" folks, who usually have had to agree with my logic. :D

NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that homosexualism is bad
Actually, it kind of does. From Leviticus; "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (18:22) and again, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."(20:13)

Those two look pretty unequivocal to me.

o realize a couple of things:

1. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that homosexualism is bad. And I mean NOWHERE. If you bring up Sodoma and Gomorra, I suggest you read closer. It's about not showing travelers hospitability that those cities are punished for. And "not spilling your seed in vain" means everything from wet dreams to masturbation to using a condom, so that's not applicabble in modern world either.


I don't think you've read the same bible the rest of us read.

Levititcus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Levititcus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:31&32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

You really didn't learn anything from last time did you?

Khadgar, give it up. It's only Fass getting in trouble again. It's safe to ignore their comments as utter and deranged nonsense. :D

Ask him what his favorite Madonna album is.

Base your next actions on his reply.Which one should he say to get the best action?

Actually, it kind of does. From Leviticus; "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (18:22) and again, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."(20:13)

Those two look pretty unequivocal to me.Why would a man who is lying a man also lie with a woman? In other words, a man who lies with men doesn't lie with women, and therefore he isn't lying with men as he would a woman, as he wouldn't lie with a woman at all.

So the bible hates bisexuals the most? i knew it! bastards!

Actually, it kind of does. From Leviticus; "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (18:22) and again, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."(20:13)

Mankind means humans. :P Plus it's an impossibility to be with a man as one would with a woman, since men don't have vaginas. If you instead mean that anal sex with women is okay while anal sex with men isn't, be clearer about it. Furthermore, says nothing there about non-penetrative sex. ;)

I don't think you've read the same bible the rest of us read.

True, that. The one I've read is in my own language and it's the "modern language version", so if it was in English, all the "thous and thys" would be in modern English. Though methinks you've forgotten the bits about Jesus and god's 'modern forgiveness'... ;)

Romans 1:31&32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

Umm, sorry... what does this got to do with homosexuals? :confused:

Why would a man who is lying a man also lie with a woman? In other words, a man who lies with men doesn't lie with women, and therefore he isn't lying with men as he would a woman, as he wouldn't lie with a woman at all.
An interesting interpretation of the passage, I'll give you that.

My interpretation, in as much as I pay enough attention to the old book to bother interpreting it, is that it is a prohibition on men having sexual relations with men in the same way as other men have sexual relations with women. Maybe I've had it it wrong all these years.

Mankind means humans.
Are you seriously suggesting that women are not human?

Mankind means humans. :P Plus it's an impossibility to be with a man as one would with a woman, since men don't have vaginas. If you instead mean that anal sex with women is okay while anal sex with men isn't, be clearer about it. Furthermore, says nothing there about non-penetrative sex. ;)



True, that. The one I've read is in my own language and it's the "modern language version", so if it was in English, all the "thous and thys" would be in modern English. Though methinks you've forgotten the bits about Jesus and god's 'modern forgiveness'... ;)



Umm, sorry... what does this got to do with homosexuals? :confused:

"Those without natural affection".

Why would a man who is lying a man also lie with a woman? In other words, a man who lies with men doesn't lie with women, and therefore he isn't lying with men as he would a woman, as he wouldn't lie with a woman at all.

I knew I forgot something. Thanks for pointing that one out. ^_^

So the bible hates bisexuals the most? i knew it! bastards!

LOL, didn't you know that bisexual erasure is all the craze these days? :P

Some reading for all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_erasure

"Those without natural affection".

But if someone is naturally attracted to someone of their own gender, that's natural affection right there. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Wouldn't that passage also mean that all rapists should be put to death?

Are you seriously suggesting that women are not human?

No, I'm seriously suggesting that the Bible quoted there needs to be rewritten in modern English. :P

it is a prohibition on men having sexual relations with men in the same way as other men have sexual relations with women.

But in the eyes of the Bible, men have sexual relations with women to make babies and that's impossible between two men, so that again nullifies your interpretation...

BTW, this is all about male homosexuals. Anyone good enough with Bible to find anything about female homosexuals?

One of my friends in college is gay. He knows that I know. He also knows that I don't give a (censored). He and I were part of the same club, but he left for a while. Earlier this year, he stopped by and I gave him a big hug.

As for the Bible-there's something in Corintians but I can't remember the exact quote. However, if someone brings it up in an argument with me about homosexuality, I usually respond with, "And where did Jesus say that?" That usually baffles them.

No, I'm seriously suggesting that the Bible quoted there needs to be rewritten in modern English. :P
Ahh, fair enough.

Frankly, I think it's been translated and retranslated often enough, and that any 'message' that it originally carried has long since been lost. Truthfully, I do not accept that there was ever any revelatory message there to begin with, but that's just my opinion and any further discussion of it here will only result in this thread being dragged even further off topic. ;)

You're not arguing against my argument. You're arguing against some ignorant misrepresentation of my argument that you concocted in your head, where you don't know much about paraphilias and how those are indeed influenced by environment, and then just think you're arguing against my argument when in fact all you're doing is showing me how little you know.

Ah, very nice ad hominem, nicely done. Not convincing, but whatever.

But if someone is naturally attracted to someone of their own gender, that's natural affection right there. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Wouldn't that passage also mean that all rapists should be put to death?

Biblical law already has rapists put to death, and their victims if they didn't cry out.

I figured out one of my friends-who I met in a student club at the university we're attending-is gay 3 years ago. He knows I know and he also knows I don't care because when he came to visit earlier this year, I gave him a big hug.

As for the Bible quote-there's one in Corintians. However, those who try and quote that during an argument with me usually get this response: "Where does Jesus say that?"

Biblical law already has rapists put to death, and their victims if they didn't cry out.

Can you quote me the verses? I keep a record of these for fun... :D

I don't think you've read the same bible the rest of us read.

Levititcus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Levititcus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:31&32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

Those Leviticus quotes, as I've heard them explained, refer to MARRIED men sleeping with other men. Basically, don't have affairs.

Plus, the word "abomination" gets used in all sorts of other places, including the wearing of "cloth made from more than one kind of fibre" (ie polyester).

If you are an strict Orthodox Jew, who follows ALL of the laws in Leviticus, THEN you can talk to me about those rules.

However, those who try and quote that during an argument with me usually get this response: "Where does Jesus say that?"

Or God for that matter. It's always some guy giving their view, instead of direct message from god, and even if there was some "and God spaketh thus" in there, it would still be man-made - how do I know that the folks that originally wrote the Bible stuff didn't lie? (And that's in addition to whether God ever spoke to them in the first place.)

Kassin, good point on the married men thing... is it still fashionable to stone to death all adulterers? :D

EDIT: Aww, shoot, I gotta run. I put a subscription to this thread, though, so eventually I'll be back. ;)

Leviticus is divided into two sections- Holiness Code and Priestly Code. All of the restrictions in Leviticus apply only to the Israelite tribes of the Hebrew peoples; and to no one else. If you were a Philistine, you didn't have to follow those rules because you didn't worship Yahweh, the native god of the Hebrew people.

As for the later Christianization; anyone who takes the writings of Paul at face value is a fool.

Biblical prohibitions on "homosexuality" (which didn't exist, per se, back then) are nonexistent. The only prohibition was on Israelite men from having specialized relations with other men- I've read an interpretation which suggests that passage is a reference to the fertility rites of the Canaanites, something the Jews were not supposed to do.

But back to the topic- the best thing to do with a friend is offer support. Love and friendship is the best thing; and it helps if you sometimes ask how he's doing, or is he's in a relationship, or some such thing. It's nice to know your friends are concerned about your personal life, and if you're doing well.

Don't let some pseudo-biblical obsolete rules get in the way of happiness.

Can you quote me the verses? I keep a record of these for fun... :D

Actually I was wrong it depends on the circumstances of the rape:

Deuteronomy 22:23,24,25 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

Deuteronomy 22:28,29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Hehe... I'd forgotten all about that site. Thank you :)

Ah, very nice ad hominem, nicely done. Not convincing, but whatever.

Exposing your straw man for what it is is not an ad hominem. Nor is pointing out that you keep confusing paraphilia and sexual orientation, probably because you don't know the difference. If you were to deal with paraphilias and their environmental components then we might be getting somewhere, but as long as you pull up the to my argument irrelevant red herring that is sexual orientation and hope that I not notice it, well we'll be here, stuck at the impasse of your bale of hay.

For me it wasn't a big deal, but I was very worried my friends might think differently of me for it.
So when I told my best friend over the phone and her reaction was "Well who do you like?" it just made me smile, because she really didn't care about it.
The fact that she didn't change a thing in the way we relate made it so much more comfortable. (My friend and I are both very touchy-feely types when it comes to friendship, and will often hold each others hands whilst having a conversation... we are so unaware of the boundaries between each other that people often give us weird looks as we walk around arm-in-arm) The exact opposite reaction when I was outed at school was what made me feel so isolated there even though none of my so-called-friends said anything about it in regards to disassociating with me. But they stopped hugging me in greeting, and would walk circles around me rather then brush past me in the hall. They also stopped initiating conversations with me... and trust me, you can tell when you're not wanted. Actions speak volumes more than words,
My best friend also later took to calling me "Lilo" on the reasoning that it sounds a little like "lesbo" to her, and we now frequently call each other by weird nicknames. And most classic of all was the one time when she asked a really dour waitress if we should get married... even the waitress smiled. I on the other hand had to clean coffee off my lap. But it was familiar, and that's what friends are.
Being able to joke about it shows you're comfortable enough with it to treat it as just another characteristic.

So my advice would be: don't treat him any differently, make jokes about his personality quirks (even about being gay if in safe company), hug him if that's something you do, play fight if it's not, chat about guys he likes just like you would about girls, let him know nothing has changed your feelings towards him.

heya all

So as the title suggests one of my mates has come out so to speak and well were all kind of worried about him. He is intensely ashamed of how he feels and has considered killing himself. We all grew up in a catholic community and no one here would ever harm him but gossip and all that kind of crap can sometimes be more 'effective'. His family are awsome but he still hasn't told them and to be honest i don't know how they will react. His Dad and Mum are really cool but devout as are his brothers and sisters.

Anyone else out there had to try and help someone through this kind of stuff? We tried just being mates for him but he is slowly pushing us away we keep inviting him out and all that but he has stopped coming along, im getting the impression that nothing much but time will help but there has to be something we can do to make it slightly easier for him?

Cheers in advance
Santhar

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but if your friend is still a practicing catholic (or wishs to be), you could direct him to a group called "Dignity." It is specificaly for gay and lesbian catholics. It could help him come to terms with being both gay and catholic by knowing that there are many many gay catholics out there. They can provide a great deal of information, advice and support to your friend.

You can find the web site here. http://www.dignityusa.org/

Best of luck!

Well, he could always become part of the clergy and keep celibate. There's no sin that way, obviously, and he could help others with their problems. That is, if he's determined to stay within the faith. Short of an exorcism, he's pretty much heading toward committing an unnatural act if he's going to be gay and not restrain himself. Sort of a conflict for a religious person, I could imagine.

you think homosexuals need exorcisms? :eek:

*converts to atheism*

Support your friend -- and remind the local catholics that they should follow christ's example of tolerance instead of putting on white hoods and ranting about sexual preferences.

*converts to atheism*

I am so keeping you to that.

Ah, very nice ad hominem, nicely done. Not convincing, but whatever.

That's not an ad hominem.

you think homosexuals need exorcisms? :eek:

*converts to atheism*

Wuh? :p

I was thinking of ways he could keep kosher with the Catholics while being gay, not endorsing exorcism. ;) I don't really endorse Roman Catholicism, to be honest.

Which one should he say to get the best action?

"I've never listend to Madonna." Anything else is unacceptable homoeroticism.


















Just kidding, I actually like Madonna and 80's music in general alot.

done and done. ;)

*is atheist*

Good, now you can finally tag along to our wanton, satanic orgies/bake-offs.

I am so keeping you to that.

done and done. ;)

*is atheist*

Good, now you can finally tag along to our wanton, satanic orgies/bake-offs.

yay!

"I've never listend to Madonna." Anything else is unacceptable homoeroticism.

Just kidding, I actually like Madonna and 80's music in general alot.I'm not surprised you'd say that. ;)

Good, now you can finally tag along to our wanton, satanic orgies/bake-offs.

I was under the impression she did that already :p

hey dude i dont know wut ever happened with that cuz i just joined. but the best thing to do if theyre pushing u away is to jsut try and get them to talk. whether it's about the situation or not, just try to get them to talk. one of my best friends is bi... and she's awsome i luv her to death. but people think she's weird and creepy and there's nothing weird or creepy about her. sure she's crazy, but aren't we all? but anyway, she was cutting and i got her to kinda talk about how stuff was going and just talking about life and school and stuff. she felt a lot better. and if u can get them to talk about the actual situation then that's even better. (btw wut my friend was going through had nothing to do with her being bi. ppl were jsut strangely mean to her all the time even if they didnt know her). Anyway i hope this might've helped u. ttyl :)

I was under the impression she did that already :p

No, the dark lord issued a ban when she gave up her drug-addled ways.

No, the dark lord issued a ban when she gave up her drug-addled ways.

sadly tis true.

That's not an ad hominem.

Of course it was, you have to pay closer attention, he snuck that one right past you huh?

you think homosexuals need exorcisms? :eek:

*converts to atheism*

done and done. ;)

*is atheist*

What game are you playing? How close to blasphemy of the Holy Ghost can I get without doing it? Or, Can I deny Christ in public and cover it with a winky smile, lets find out?

Just curious.

Did you break off all contact with him? It is your moral duty.

As a general rule, a heterosexula
Heterosexula? Some kind of vampire?

No, I'm seriously suggesting that the Bible quoted there needs to be rewritten in modern English. :P
Art thou illiterate?

Of course it was, you have to pay closer attention, he snuck that one right past you huh?

I have a feeling you don't know what an ad hominem is.

I have a feeling you don't know what an ad hominem is.

An ad hominem is: "argument against the man" consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

Now let's see what he said after I confronted him with the fact that he said homosexuals would be turned into pedophiles if they joined the Catholic Church, I had just pointed out that I was arguing that homosexuals could not be 'turned' any easier than heterosexuals could and he was the one that implied they could...

You're not arguing against my argument. You're arguing against some ignorant misrepresentation of my argument that you concocted in your head, where you don't know much about paraphilias and how those are indeed influenced by environment, and then just think you're arguing against my argument when in fact all you're doing is showing me how little you know.

These are attacks on the person, trying to deny his opponent the ability to be able to posit any opinion, not arguments of how he did not say homosexuals would be turned into pedophiles, nothing to do with the actual discussion, just trying to attack the credibility of his opponent (me) and trying to discredit his opponent from being a credible source for an argument against him. Thus, an ad hominem attack instead of a defense of his position.

An ad hominem is: "argument against the man" consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

Now let's see what he said after I confronted him with the fact that he said homosexuals would be turned into pedophiles if they joined the Catholic Church, I had just pointed out that I was arguing that homosexuals could not be 'turned' any easier than heterosexuals could and he was the one that implied they could...

You're not arguing against my argument. You're arguing against some ignorant misrepresentation of my argument that you concocted in your head, where you don't know much about paraphilias and how those are indeed influenced by environment, and then just think you're arguing against my argument when in fact all you're doing is showing me how little you know.

These are attacks on the person, trying to deny his opponent the ability to be able to posit any opinion, not arguments of how he did not say homosexuals would be turned into pedophiles, nothing to do with the actual discussion, just trying to attack the credibility of his opponent (me) and trying to discredit his opponent from being a credible source for an argument against him. Thus, an ad hominem attack instead of a defense of his position.

You're actually wrong.

If it was an ad hominem attack, he would have said That's not true, because you're an adulterer and no one can believe what adulterers say.. And ad hominem attack is unrelated to the topic at hand- it calls question to the debaters ability in an unrelated way. Questioning your expertise on the subject is not ad hominem, because knowledgeability is germane to the discussion.

You're actually wrong.

Incorrect, I'll show you why.

If it was an ad hominem attack, he would have said That's not true, because you're an adulterer and no one can believe what adulterers say..

He did do that, more subtley though, what he said in essence was: That's not true, because you're ignorant and you make stuff up and no one can believe what ignorant story tellers say..

And ad hominem attack is unrelated to the topic at hand- it calls question to the debaters ability in an unrelated way. Questioning your expertise on the subject is not ad hominem, because knowledgeability is germane to the discussion.

He didn't 'question' my expertise on the subject, he 'asserted' something that cannot be known to him nor did he present evidence of my knowledgeability on the subject. He posited that I am ignorant and said I can't be trusted to know what I am saying because of that ignorance and making things up because I disagree with him... in so many words.

Watch, I'll do it to you, you say: You're actually wrong.

Then I say:

You're not arguing against my argument. You're arguing against some ignorant misrepresentation of my argument that you concocted in your head, where you don't know much about ad hominem attacks in public forums and how they are used to influence the online environment, and then just think you're arguing against my argument when in fact all you're doing is showing me how little you know.

See, anyone can do it, about any topic, and they don't have to do anything except attack their opponent witha single line about the topic on hand to keep it from being obvious flaming.

Heya guys

I just wanted too say thanks to everyone for replying and thanks to New texoma land for the website, i will tie him up in front of the computer and make him read it :p. So far none of our group have turned on him, everyone seems to be trying to support him, not that i suspected any would. He is pretty torn up and were just trying to be some kind of safety net for him. It was kind of bad when he told us, we were all having a few drinks and he just came out with it, we all laughed because we thought he was joking :( if we relized he was being serious we would have responded alot differently. We all still love him but i think he needs to relize were all still his mates and we all still love him. Im thinking we might need to break into his house and kidnap him and force him to come out im not sure him sitting alone and hating himself is going to do any good.

I went to his house last night and he had locked himself in his room, took me near 20minutes to convince him to open the door and then another 20minutes for him to bloody start taking. I ve told him we all still love him and we all still want to be his mate and none of us give a flying fuck he is gay but we do care that he is sitting in his room thinking about how "evil" he is. I tried to give him our groups handshake (childish i know but intensly amusing :p) but he freaked out ( it does involve an embrace but its very unsexual in anyway) it seems like he doesnt understand his own homosexuality like he is scared of it? It would seem he has the impression he will turn into the Hulk only the gay version :( :confused:

Just don't let anything change because he'd already come out. Being a Catholic and being gay can coexist. I have friends who are both... heck, they're even more religious than me! ;)

Of course there'll be people who just won't understand. Just tell him not to heed them; what they think doesn't matter anyway... the important thing is that you're still with him no matter what.

What is this really about? This almost sounds as if Santhar's "mate" had a grave disease or something.
He's gay and catholic? He could end up a bishop then...

Did you break off all contact with him? It is your moral duty.

Please tell me this is an online persona and not how you behave in real life.

If he's gay then he's gay. Blondeness is the only cause for su su suicide:sniper:

Actually, it kind of does. From Leviticus; "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (18:22)

This seems to condemn bisexuality more than anything. ('as' being interpreted as 'in the same manner as')

and again, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."(20:13)

Again, suggesting that lying with women AND men in the same manner is bad. Or that threesomes are ('as' could be 'at the same time as' OR 'in the same manner as')


Still not cool of the Bible, but not necessarily a homosexual condemnation.

NOTE: This is to poke holes in the other side's argument and do not necessarily reflect the poster's actual views. Furthermore, this assumes the veracity and moral authority of the Bible as a given; this may or may not be the actual case. The style and content of the post do not bear any reflection on the poster.

Actually, it kind of does. From Leviticus; "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (18:22) and again, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."(20:13)

Those two look pretty unequivocal to me.Yeah, good Leviticus isn't any actual law or rule to live by.

What game are you playing? How close to blasphemy of the Holy Ghost can I get without doing it? Or, Can I deny Christ in public and cover it with a winky smile, lets find out?

Just curious.

no game. I am tired of being associated with homophobes, so I am an atheist now.

no game. I am tired of being associated with homophobes, so I am an atheist now.

:eek:
Nooooo, you were the bestest Christian ever. Now they pretty much all suck.

:eek:
Nooooo, you were the bestest Christian ever. Now they pretty much all suck.

you still have LG.

you still have LG.

True.

On the plus side, now us evil atheists have the bestest mom evar on our side. Now if we can just turn you into a liberal commie islamofascist we'll be able to rule the world!

The best thing you can do, is to keep things the way they are.

Don't treat him any different. Just keep an open mind, I know this doesn't help, but I'm catholic too, and it is NOT a very open faith, so if he feels that the church doesn't support him in his change of lifestyle, than suggest to him that if he wishes to leave the church, that is okay too.

Not everyone needs to conform to the same religions. Thats the point of other ones.

:eek:
Nooooo, you were the bestest Christian ever. Now they pretty much all suck.No change then.

The best thing you can do, is to keep things the way they are.

Don't treat him any different. Just keep an open mind, I know this doesn't help, but I'm catholic too, and it is NOT a very open faith, so if he feels that the church doesn't support him in his change of lifestyle, than suggest to him that if he wishes to leave the church, that is okay too.

Not everyone needs to conform to the same religions. Thats the point of other ones.What? Where do you folks live and what kind of Catholicism do you folks know?

no game. I am tired of being associated with homophobes, so I am an atheist now.
That seems like a huge leap to make all in one go. Maybe try a step-down plan. Become an animist for a while first. It's easy! You can even still believe in Jesus. :)

Did you break off all contact with him? It is your moral duty.

Actually your moral duty is making Imperial Brazil realize how offensive he is and how much bad karma he's building up.

Did you break off all contact with him? It is your moral duty.Why? Isn't the love of as Christian for his neighbor supposed to be unconditional?

Actually your moral duty is making Imperial Brazil realize how offensive he is and how much bad karma he's building up.

Actually, I think all of us have the moral duty to NOT FEED THE TROLL.

What? Where do you folks live and what kind of Catholicism do you folks know?
Hmmmm... I think it's a bit of a misconception that you need to follow everything the Church says. Hell no. Catholicism, like any other religion, is constantly evolving, and is not something etched in stone. It is the diversity within the church that drives this change, and it is not something unwelcome for the Church. Belonging to a Church does not necessarily mean conforming to it... well at least that's what I think...

Meh. Whatever. Don't really want to debate this thing... I'll just watch. *brings out popcorn*

Why? Isn't the love of as Christian for his neighbor supposed to be unconditional?

That's certainly what Jesus seemed to be saying.

Unfortunately, seems like Paul, the current Pope, and a few others disagree. Go figure.

I'm surprised to find out that you think homosexual desires can be turned into pedophilia. I was under the impression that most of the homosexual adults in this forum said one has nothing to do with the other.

If a heterosexual person can become celibate (the vast majority of nuns and priests) I don't see why a homosexual person would turn into a pervert because of celibacy. I think you came to a bigoted/sweeping conclusion there.

A family friend who is a priest - who calls a spade, a spade told me his experience in the priest hood. What he has seen in the priest hood are basically those who do want to dedicate themselves to god and those who have issues and use the priesthood to hide from them. As he said, you'd be surprised the number who do have issues and enter the priesthood.

I have met Priests who are pot smokers, drinkers, drug takers. Major personal/psychological issues and so forth.

What I think needs to be done is a review of each person who enters. It might shrink the numbers who enter but atleats there will be far less nuts.

That's certainly what Jesus seemed to be saying.

Unfortunately, seems like Paul, the current Pope, and a few others disagree. Go figure.The current Pope? No.

The current Pope? No.

I see UB that you did not understand the post! He was saying that the Pope does not believe in love thy neighbor as thy self.

That seems like a huge leap to make all in one go. Maybe try a step-down plan. Become an animist for a while first. It's easy! You can even still believe in Jesus. :)

I am considering mysticism with a hint of superstition.

I realized just now I hadn't answered the thread.

Your friend being gay only really affects you if you want to have sex with him, otherwise, it's just your friend and nothing changed.

Your friend being gay only really affects you if you want to have sex with him, otherwise, it's just your friend and nothing changed.

Well, it may also effect the OP if his friend wants to have sex with HIM as well, but essentially yes.

I see UB that you did not understand the post! He was saying that the Pope does not believe in love thy neighbor as thy self.And I disagreed. I understood the post quite well.

Well, it may also effect the OP if his friend wants to have sex with HIM as well, but essentially yes.

someone wanting to have sex with me, has hardly ever affected me before, mostly it's their problem.

someone wanting to have sex with me, has hardly ever affected me before, mostly it's their problem.

But it can change the relationship thus effecting both parties.

If he's gay then he's gay. Blondeness is the only cause for su su suicide:sniper:
I am blonde, but do not see it as cause for suicide - an action reserved for the mentally and spiritually deprived.

Please tell me this is an online persona and not how you behave in real life.
Does my faith offend you? Why?

I am blonde, but do not see it as cause for suicide - an action reserved for the mentally and spiritually deprived.

What about the mentally and spiritually depraved?

Actually your moral duty is making Imperial Brazil realize how offensive he is and how much bad karma he's building up.
Yes, the Truth may hurt. Karma is heathen moonshine.

Why? Isn't the love of as Christian for his neighbor supposed to be unconditional?
Sin is infectious.

What about the mentally and spiritually depraved?
Why, they go to Hell. :)

I am blonde, but do not see it as cause for suicide - an action reserved for the mentally and spiritually deprived.But you'll get to see god that much sooner!

Does my faith offend you? Why?

Why dodge the question I pose to you? Oh ye of little faith in my response to your answer.

As to your faith offending me. No it does not. Now answer my fricking question. Why should I trust anything you are saying?

Why, they go to Hell. :)

hm...interesting. And the mentally and spiritually disturbed?

Why, they go to Hell. :)

And it is our solemn duty to reach out to them so that they do not commit suicide.

And it is our solemn duty to reach out to them so that they do not commit suicide.

No no no...the deprived commit suicide. The depraved go to hell. And let's face it, if you're both depraved and deprived, you should die and go to hell. Or something like that.

I am considering mysticism with a hint of superstition.
Excellent! That opens up a whole world of fun and amusing belief systems. Including animism. ;) (hint: I was hoping for someone to ask how to become an animist, so I could tell them there's no way to become an animist unless you already are one. Sigh. Oh, well. *moves on*)

I realized just now I hadn't answered the thread.

Your friend being gay only really affects you if you want to have sex with him, otherwise, it's just your friend and nothing changed.

I haven't answered it yet, either.

I agree with the above. It changes nothing about the person, but if the person is severely upset by coming out, then his friends should make every effort to offer him emotional support (which apparently they are) and encourage him to get support and/or therapy from other gays who are living happy lives.

No no no...the deprived commit suicide. The depraved go to hell. And let's face it, if you're both depraved and deprived, you should die and go to hell. Or something like that.

hehe!! I surrender.

Look, it's really really hard to come out to friends especially in high school and college, the fact that he did that means he trusts you and hopes you wont see him any differently. The best thing you can do is to treat him the same as you always have and if he has a sense of humor make some jokes with him, but if hes really depressed about it keep in mind youre walking on eggshells and dont want to offend him. keep in mind that he is the same guy hes always been, just now hes completely honest. There are stupid people in every religion, race, and sexual affiliation and he needs to know that not everyone will accept him but he would be surprised how many people will. they dont call it gay for nothing...they are happy people when they're free of society and judgement. youre a good friend to worry about it

wow, i read the first page and im crying.

there is no hate, no insults, everyone here is really supportive.

wish i had you guys around when i came out!

hugs to you all! :fluffle:

BTW - if you can find a local PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians And Gays) chapter close to you, it might help.

or if nessessary, go out of city, just to keep it hidden from people who might make the situation get out of control.

first time i went to a gay bar, i cried; i never thought there were so many like me...LOCALLY

i havent cried in, Gods, 5-6 years...ever since that night at the bar, but this thread brought it welling up again.

Rafe,
OOC
heya all
[snipped for length]
Santhar

Years ago now, I had a school friend who came out. I can't imagine how hard it must have been for him to tell everyone or how long it had taken to get up the courage to do it. The funny thing was, once he told us, he was the one who was surprised. Most of us who'd been close to him had always thought he was gay and had just been waiting for him to tell us! I'm sure it wasn't that easy with everyone but it just seemed the most natural thing for him to tell us.

I know that a lot has changed in society but there is still so much abuse and discrimination against gays. It's good to see how supportive people are in this thread, there's nothing to be gained by hurting others.

Years ago now, I had a school friend who came out. I can't imagine how hard it must have been for him to tell everyone or how long it had taken to get up the courage to do it. The funny thing was, once he told us, he was the one who was surprised. Most of us who'd been close to him had always thought he was gay and had just been waiting for him to tell us! I'm sure it wasn't that easy with everyone but it just seemed the most natural thing for him to tell us.

I know that a lot has changed in society but there is still so much abuse and discrimination against gays. It's good to see how supportive people are in this thread, there's nothing to be gained by hurting others.But why? Homosexuality is not such an issue at all.

But why? Homosexuality is not such an issue at all.To quite a lot of people it is.

Just remember that he's still the same person. He hasn't become a totally new character just because he revealed to select others the way he probably had already felt for quite some time. No matter who he's attracted to, he's still your friend and you should treat him the same as you always have.

Rafe,
OOC

You don't need to tell us you're OOC on General. It's assumed.