NationStates Jolt Archive

First off, for those who don't know TFRs are Temporary Flight Restrictions. They are basically airspace that have been block off of any traffic for a pre-determined amount of time. They cover public events like Football games, racing, etc. They also cover Presidential visits, Vice Presidential visits, basically anyone who runs this country, as well as leaders of other countries. The idea behind a TFR is if they block off a certain amount of airspace, then no one will dare to go into the TFR to attack a target. Well, that's the reasoning that the FAA gives anyways.

I'm here to tell you that TFR is a practice in futility, because all they do is make law-abiding pilots like myself jump through hoops in the system when all we want to do is fly to the state next door to visit some relatives, but because there's a TFR in the way, we have to burn more fuel by taking a longer route to fly around it. Hell the only people who know TFRs even exist is the FAA, pilots, and some of the people that the TFR protect. The general public don't know about TFRs and they sure as hell don't care about them.

Do people honestly think that a terrorist who is bent on attacking a target will care if there's a TFR surrounding the target? Hell no, Hell they laugh at TFRs, and then they yell Allah Ackhabar and push the yoke forward causing the aircraft to go into a steep dive. Now I know that some people will say "Well the F-18 will shoot them down LOL!!!111!!" yea, if the terrorist are flying single propeller piston engine driven aircraft, but they're not. They're flying airliners and if possible, Business Jets. Aircrafts like a Cessna 172, or a Piper Cherokee 180, or any other single prop piston aircraft are not going to be a terrorist weapon of choice. Why, because they don't cause that much damage. Hell they can't even knock down a building. If a terrorist hijack a jet, let's say a business jet. By the time that the F-18s reach the area, and get their shot line up, the terrorist would've already struck his target.

Also, God forbid a TFR pop up while you're en route, you may have the most up to date informations about TFRs, NOTAMs, etc. but those little suckers can still pop up at anytime, and if they pop up in your area, well you can count on being visited by F-18s who are going to force you to land, and then you get to explain to law enforcement (who knows next to nothing about aviation!) why you were flying in a TFR, never mind the fact that the TFR wasn't there when you took off.

If Gov. Co. wants to keep senseitive areas, people, and events safe and free from terrorist attacks, then guess what, don't advertise it on the freakin internet! When you put up a TFR, you might as well paint a big target on the area that the TFR is supposed to be protecting, because that's basically what's going on.

TFRs are worthless as a terrorist prevention tool, and all they do is give pilots like me headaches.

Finally I found this humerous and ties into my rant for today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/PAY5353/fear_me.gif

For those who don't know, C-150s are just 2 seater single prop aircraft that only go about 100 mph, and can't really carry that much. Hell it struggles when the two seats are filled with two adults.

Best part is I'm sure the fact that you violated restricted airspace will be put helpfully on your FBI files. And good luck flying commercial ever again.

Best part is I'm sure the fact that you violated restricted airspace will be put helpfully on your FBI files. And good luck flying commercial ever again.

and you get your license suspended or revoked. Fun times.

I think there might be more to it than you're letting on. I go to a lot of races and there is a lot traffic in the air. At Laguna Seca and Sears Point (Infenion Raceway) there is a helicopter that takes off and lands from the track, and for covered events a helicopter and/or blimp that helps cover the event. Large races and particularly NASCAR events are accompanied by Air Force or Navy fly overs.

Other major sporting events are also accompanied by helicopter or other craft involved in the coverage, or if it's a large crowd law enforcement craft overhead.

Couldn't it just be that the airspace is busy with pilots who are essentially circling the event looking down that it's too dangerous to have cross traffic going on as well? That makes perfect sense to me.

I think there might be more to it than you're letting on. I go to a lot of races and there is a lot traffic in the air. At Laguna Seca and Sears Point (Infenion Raceway) there is a helicopter that takes off and lands from the track, and for covered events a helicopter and/or blimp that helps cover the event. Large races and particularly NASCAR events are accompanied by Air Force or Navy fly overs.

Other major sporting events are also accompanied by helicopter or other craft involved in the coverage, or if it's a large crowd law enforcement craft overhead.

Couldn't it just be that the airspace is busy with pilots who are essentially circling the event looking down that it's too dangerous to have cross traffic going on as well? That makes perfect sense to me.

It is true that sporting events does have a high volume of air traffic, so I can see why there would be TFRs for them, for traffic separation, and those TFR are pretty predictable (1 hour before event starts and 1 hour after is how long those are usually up) I'm just protesting the idea that TFR = Target is safe, when it's not. TFRs is just circles drawn on a map, that's pretty much it.

that was an...interesting little rant. I fear it misses the point though and is somehow meandering off course about how these things don't actually "make you safe" while completely missing the point in the first place. If you have a no fly zone, it's real easy to pick out the people who are a danger, they're the only ones flying in it.

that was an...interesting little rant. I fear it misses the point though and is somehow meandering off course about how these things don't actually "make you safe" while completely missing the point in the first place. If you have a no fly zone, it's real easy to pick out the people who are a danger, they're the only ones flying in it.

Remember the story last spring (2006) where a Cessna 150 accidently flew into the ADIZ (Restricted) airspace around Washington DC? What threat does a Cessna 150 pose? Keep in mind, this is a Cessna 150.

http://www.eaachapter486.com/images/carpntk1.jpg

Not exactly the world's biggest aircraft, it's pretty small, so what threat does single engine piston pose to the general population?

Not exactly the world's biggest aircraft, it's pretty small, so what threat does single engine piston pose to the general population?

a 1 megaton nuclear warhead would fit nicely in the passenger's seat. They're not that big, the size of a large suitcase. I container of weaponized anthrax attached to a pressure hose on the outside of the plane would be about the same size.

A creative person can make such a tiny little plane a very handy delivery system for a great many things.

Remember the story last spring (2006) where a Cessna 150 accidently flew into the ADIZ (Restricted) airspace around Washington DC? What threat does a Cessna 150 pose? Keep in mind, this is a Cessna 150.

http://www.eaachapter486.com/images/carpntk1.jpg

Not exactly the world's biggest aircraft, it's pretty small, so what threat does single engine piston pose to the general population?

What threat does a gun have to the general population? Doesn't matter how small it is. If it can kill, it can kill.

In fact, I just finished reading a story how a garbageman almost got crushed to death between the garbage truck backing up to let someone out of their driveway, and a parked car behind the truck. Quick thinking on the garbageman's part had him jumping over the car's hood to save himself.

So, once again, how dangerous can a plane be, even as small as that one is? What if a person who wanted to deliberately cause destruction in it loaded it up with high explosives and flew to their target?

I'd say pretty dangerous. *nods*

a 1 megaton nuclear warhead would fit nicely in the passenger's seat. They're not that big, the size of a large suitcase. I container of weaponized anthrax attached to a pressure hose on the outside of the plane would be about the same size.

A creative person can make such a tiny little plane a very handy delivery system for a great many things.

Bah, you beat me to stating the obvious.

Guess you're Captain Obvious. And I'm...the sidekick?... dunno if I like the title, but I will say this.

I AIN'T WEARING TIGHTS!

For those who don't know, C-150s are just 2 seater single prop aircraft that only go about 100 mph, and can't really carry that much. Hell it struggles when the two seats are filled with two adults.

The answer. Long distance remote control. Chase car. Onboard video camera, two adults weight in explosives. Low flight altitude where possible.

a 1 megaton nuclear warhead would fit nicely in the passenger's seat. They're not that big, the size of a large suitcase. I container of weaponized anthrax attached to a pressure hose on the outside of the plane would be about the same size.

A creative person can make such a tiny little plane a very handy delivery system for a great many things.

Now let's look at the plausibility of actually transporting the 1 megaton nuclear warhead from the home to the airport and into the aircraft, keeping in mind that almost every airport out there has a security team as well as surveillance camera on the property. They also do ramp checks, that's where people actually go out to an aircraft that's departing and check it to make sure that it's safe to fly, I'm thinking having a suitcase with a hose on it will seem suspicious and the ramp person would deem the aircraft unsafe to fly.

The answer. Long distance remote control. Chase car. Onboard video camera, two adults weight in explosives. Low flight altitude where possible.

Let's keep in mind that this thing with two adults or adult weight can barely putter along in the sky (they're like the economic cars of the 80s) shooting this thing down will literally be like shooting a fish in a barrel.

Now let's look at the plausibility of actually transporting the 1 megaton nuclear warhead from the home to the airport and into the aircraft, keeping in mind that almost every airport out there has a security team as well as surveillance camera on the property. They also do ramp checks, that's where people actually go out to an aircraft that's departing and check it to make sure that it's safe to fly, I'm thinking having a suitcase with a hose on it will seem suspicious and the ramp person would deem the aircraft unsafe to fly.

I have a question. If one has a private pilot's license and either rents or flies their own plane, is there still an airport security team to inspect all baggage going onto the plane like one would find at a commercial airport? You've stated that there's people who go out to aircraft and inspect them, but not if they go into the cargo itself. Obviously a suitcase with a hose on it just from a glance would look suspicious, but what about bags that don't look like that?

And who's to say that the pilot doesn't drop the plane somewhere quickly, pick up a load of explosives and get back into the air and onward to the destination?

Now let's look at the plausibility of actually transporting the 1 megaton nuclear warhead from the home to the airport and into the aircraft, keeping in mind that almost every airport out there has a security team as well as surveillance camera on the property. They also do ramp checks, that's where people actually go out to an aircraft that's departing and check it to make sure that it's safe to fly, I'm thinking having a suitcase with a hose on it will seem suspicious and the ramp person would deem the aircraft unsafe to fly.

exactly. And now you just made my point. That's exactly the point of why they can be dangerous. There's no airport required. No security checks. No survellance cameras.

Looking at the size of that thing I imagine it would not be terribly difficult to disassemble it, carry it in a truck or two, and reassemble it in a field somewhere in virginia and take off.

Let's keep in mind that this thing with two adults or adult weight can barely putter along in the sky (they're like the economic cars of the 80s) shooting this thing down will literally be like shooting a fish in a barrel.

and once again you make the point for me. If there wasn't a no fly zone in place, and that plane had every right to be there...how would you know it was dangerous and needed to be shot down unless it was too late?

Honestly, your whole argument is that these planes pose no danger and their flight should not be restricted. We respond by showing you that they CAN be a danger, and you say well, they can be shot down. But how would you know that this plane was a danger if there was no no fly zone and it had the right to be there?

The way you can tell if it's a possible threat is if it's somewhere it's not supposed to be. Like, say, in the middle of a TFR for example

and once again you make the point for me. If there wasn't a no fly zone in place, and that plane had every right to be there...how would you know it was dangerous and needed to be shot down unless it was too late?

Honestly, your whole argument is that these planes pose no danger and their flight should not be restricted. We respond by showing you that they CAN be a danger, and you say well, they can be shot down. But how would you know that this plane was a danger if there was no no fly zone and it had the right to be there?

The way you can tell if it's a possible threat is if it's somewhere it's not supposed to be. Like, say, in the middle of a TFR for example

Unless the TFR popped up at the last minute because some VIP feels like being a dick.

How exactly does a TFR protect anyone?

In the unlikely event of any kind of 'attack', do you seriously believe that in under 2 minutes can evaluate if it is an 'attack' or just some inexperienced pilot going off course and then shoot it down? Or should we just have a policy of anyone flying into a TFR should be shot on sight?

A few years ago I was at a small airport when a bunch of SWAT guys burst in the door and shoved everyone in this sleepy little airport cafe onto the floor because apparently someone flying an old Cessna clipped the corner of a TFR on their way in. Talk about overreaction.

Unless the TFR popped up at the last minute because some VIP feels like being a dick.
The answer to that is not to abolish the system all together, but to require that at least 60 minutes of advance warning be given.

Another solution would be to require everyone to have a Mode S Transponder and file a flight plan. No more transponder code 1200. :) I would think you would find that more of pain in the butt than dealing with the occasional temporary TFR.

The answer to that is not to abolish the system all together, but to require that at least 60 minutes of advance warning be given.

Make it a day's warning and I think the pilot community will be able to live with that.

How exactly does a TFR protect anyone?

In the unlikely event of any kind of 'attack', do you seriously believe that in under 2 minutes can evaluate if it is an 'attack' or just some inexperienced pilot going off course and then shoot it down? Or should we just have a policy of anyone flying into a TFR should be shot on sight?

A few years ago I was at a small airport when a bunch of SWAT guys burst in the door and shoved everyone in this sleepy little airport cafe onto the floor because apparently someone flying an old Cessna clipped the corner of a TFR on their way in. Talk about overreaction.

Agreed.

First off, for those who don't know TFRs are Temporary Flight Restrictions. They are basically airspace that have been block off of any traffic for a pre-determined amount of time. They cover public events like Football games, racing, etc. They also cover Presidential visits, Vice Presidential visits, basically anyone who runs this country, as well as leaders of other countries. The idea behind a TFR is if they block off a certain amount of airspace, then no one will dare to go into the TFR to attack a target. Well, that's the reasoning that the FAA gives anyways.

I'm here to tell you that TFR is a practice in futility, because all they do is make law-abiding pilots like myself jump through hoops in the system when all we want to do is fly to the state next door to visit some relatives, but because there's a TFR in the way, we have to burn more fuel by taking a longer route to fly around it. Hell the only people who know TFRs even exist is the FAA, pilots, and some of the people that the TFR protect. The general public don't know about TFRs and they sure as hell don't care about them.

Do people honestly think that a terrorist who is bent on attacking a target will care if there's a TFR surrounding the target? Hell no, Hell they laugh at TFRs, and then they yell Allah Ackhabar and push the yoke forward causing the aircraft to go into a steep dive. Now I know that some people will say "Well the F-18 will shoot them down LOL!!!111!!" yea, if the terrorist are flying single propeller piston engine driven aircraft, but they're not. They're flying airliners and if possible, Business Jets. Aircrafts like a Cessna 172, or a Piper Cherokee 180, or any other single prop piston aircraft are not going to be a terrorist weapon of choice. Why, because they don't cause that much damage. Hell they can't even knock down a building. If a terrorist hijack a jet, let's say a business jet. By the time that the F-18s reach the area, and get their shot line up, the terrorist would've already struck his target.

Also, God forbid a TFR pop up while you're en route, you may have the most up to date informations about TFRs, NOTAMs, etc. but those little suckers can still pop up at anytime, and if they pop up in your area, well you can count on being visited by F-18s who are going to force you to land, and then you get to explain to law enforcement (who knows next to nothing about aviation!) why you were flying in a TFR, never mind the fact that the TFR wasn't there when you took off.

If Gov. Co. wants to keep senseitive areas, people, and events safe and free from terrorist attacks, then guess what, don't advertise it on the freakin internet! When you put up a TFR, you might as well paint a big target on the area that the TFR is supposed to be protecting, because that's basically what's going on.

TFRs are worthless as a terrorist prevention tool, and all they do is give pilots like me headaches.

Finally I found this humerous and ties into my rant for today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/PAY5353/fear_me.gif

For those who don't know, C-150s are just 2 seater single prop aircraft that only go about 100 mph, and can't really carry that much. Hell it struggles when the two seats are filled with two adults.

I agree with you there Will. I didn't realize they popped up in flight at all but I see reports all the time of Cessnas violating them like over Camp David or something unknowingly. I mean a Cessna's about as much of a terrorist weapon as a fountain pen is. It's just more beaurcratic nonsense that makes no sense.

Unless the TFR popped up at the last minute because some VIP feels like being a dick.

Do you actually think some VIP is sitting around and says, "Hey, let's fuck Wilgrove over -- throw up a TFR in front of the area his flight plan says he'll be?"

Or is it more likely that they haven't any idea that anyone is in that airspace, but want it clear for a reason they really don't have to discuss with the general public?

Do you actually think some VIP is sitting around and says, "Hey, let's fuck Wilgrove over -- throw up a TFR in front of the area his flight plan says he'll be?"

Or is it more likely that they haven't any idea that anyone is in that airspace, but want it clear for a reason they really don't have to discuss with the general public?

Most likely the VIP knows that their public engagement, or event, or whatever they're doing will result in a TFR being put in the airspace. All I'm asking is that they at least put out a NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) at least a day before the event. All I'm asking for is consideration for those of us who will be dealing with the FBI, Secret Service, local police and sometimes SWAT if we violate a TFR, even if there was no NOTAM of the TFR.

Let's keep in mind that this thing with two adults or adult weight can barely putter along in the sky (they're like the economic cars of the 80s) shooting this thing down will literally be like shooting a fish in a barrel.

That's why I specified low flight altitude. Civil aviation radar generally doesn't really do well picking objects under 100 feet at long distance.

Also, I seem to remember the Tamil Tigers turning light Cessna's into viable bomber craft.

Come to think of it, the best craft to avoid radar and do bomb runs would probably be a Sopwith Camel. Mostly fabric, very little metal, slow enough to fly very low.