NationStates Jolt Archive

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "

Depends where you are. In NYC, the subway is golden. I wouldn't trust the buses though, everyone on them looks like they're ready to snap and murder someone. Also the NYC subway is the only one that makes sense. For $2 you can go from the Bronx to Brooklyn as long as you stay underground. Elsewhere you have to pay by stop (dumb). And yes, the NYC subway is safe, even at 4 in the morning!

Depends where you are. In NYC, the subway is golden. I wouldn't trust the buses though, everyone on them looks like they're ready to snap and murder someone. Also the NYC subway is the only one that makes sense. For $2 you can go from the Bronx to Brooklyn as long as you stay underground. Elsewhere you have to pay by stop (dumb). And yes, the NYC subway is safe, even at 4 in the morning!

NJTransit is better.

With inner-city travel, nothing beats a well-developed mass transit system. But I can only name a few cities with decent systems, and they are mostly in the old Northeast (New York, Philly, DC, etc.) Personally I like to drive but if I can avoid the logjam of cars and just relax on the way to work (And probably pay less anyway) I'd go for it. Just as long as people aren't stacked three to a seat and you're not sure whose pocket your hand is in.

(If you want to get on crowded mass transit, try a Chinese bus in Shanghai. That is crowded.)

I agree, the citys are where its needed, but when it comes to long distance traveling, I'll always take a car over anything else.

Public transit in my area sucks, my city is too spread out and we haven't enough buses.

I don't mind paying taxes for it though because it does serve people who need it and are willing to put up with the crap of being either 2 hours early or 3 hours late wherever you are going, even if it does take 6 bus changes and $16 to get there.

Cars are much better suited for getting around in my area. I try to carpool as much as possible.

Except that I don't have to buy, fuel, maintain, insure or drive the bus myself and the financial cost is split up among a multitude of users, so the cost I shoulder along is far reduced.

Shoot, the cost I shoulder is exactly $0 as the university transportation department made a deal with the county public transit authority.

Zero personal cost, zero personal responsibility. Public transport FTW!

I agree it works down in the cities, but out in the suburbs and country public transit is useless.

What would u rather travel across the country in, a bus or a sports car?

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "

With inner-city travel, nothing beats a well-developed mass transit system. But I can only name a few cities with decent systems, and they are mostly in the old Northeast (New York, Philly, DC, etc.) Personally I like to drive but if I can avoid the logjam of cars and just relax on the way to work (And probably pay less anyway) I'd go for it. Just as long as people aren't stacked three to a seat and you're not sure whose pocket your hand is in.

(If you want to get on crowded mass transit, try a Chinese bus in Shanghai. That is crowded.)

[Public transportation will] never ever be as good as a car

Except that I don't have to buy, fuel, maintain, insure or drive the bus myself and the financial cost is split up among a multitude of users, so the cost I shoulder alone is far reduced.

Shoot, the cost I shoulder is exactly $0 as the university transportation department made a deal with the county public transit authority.

Zero personal cost, zero personal responsibility. Public transport FTW!

A jumbo jet, which moves far more people than a bus, and far less cost per-traveler than that of a sports car.

Flying is boring imo, last year I did a road trip across the US of A from PA to LA, in my fathers Porsche Boxster S.

NOTHING beats attacking cornrers and straights. And Im doing the same next year in my Civic SI.

Im all for public transit, just its not needed out in the subs or country.

Except that I don't have to buy, fuel, maintain, insure or drive the bus myself and the financial cost is split up among a multitude of users, so the cost I shoulder alone is far reduced.

Shoot, the cost I shoulder is exactly $0 as the university transportation department made a deal with the county public transit authority.

Zero personal cost, zero personal responsibility. Public transport FTW!

Take my situation for example, though. I can drive to my university and take 15 minutes or I can take two busses (having the change lines at some point) and take two hours. The university is 10 miles away. I get 40 miles to the gallon, so I burn half a gallon each day. That is about $1.50. Plus say, 20 cents per mile wear and tear on the car. An extra $4.00. Total price, $5.50.

Now, we all know that "time is money". Let us say I work at minimum wage at a crappy job, which is about $7.25 an hour IIRC. An hour and 45 minutes lost time on the bus spent working instead is about $12, or let us call it $10 after the Man takes his piece of the action. Another 1:45 lost on the return trip so double that.

$20 - $5.50 = a net loss of $14.50 daily

So in reality you are losing money by taking the bus in my situation. Even if the bus ride is free.

What would u rather travel across the country in, a bus or a sports car?


A jumbo jet, which moves far more people than a bus, at far less cost per-traveler than that each having to buy a sports car. If luxury/comfort is the only concern, well, that's what "business class" is for (I can due without, but if one has the money to spare...)

Fuck wrong option. I meant: Ban cars and expand public transit

There is absolutely no justification for individual cars. Walk, bike, take the bus or train. Actually meet people and get exercise.

Flying is boring imo, last year I did a road trip across the US of A from PA to LA, in my fathers Porsche Boxster S.

NOTHING beats attacking cornrers and straights. And Im doing the same next year in my Civic SI.

Im all for public transit, just its not needed out in the subs or country.

The country? No. Suburbs? Yes. The suburbs, around here anyway, is the country built up into massive suburban areas. The roads can't handle all the new traffic and all the stuff that comes with a massive population influx (schools and businesses) really cause bad bottle necks.

I can drive to my university and take 15 minutes or I can take two busses (having the change lines at some point) and take two hours.


Ah, well, implicit in the description of my personal situation is the fact that there are two separate (no transfers necessary) bus routes within walking distance of my home, both of which will deliver me almost literally to the front door of the university administration building within 30 minutes.

Public transport isn't always the best solution. It just is for me. :D

Fuck wrong option. I meant: Ban cars and expand public transit

There is absolutely no justification for individual cars. Walk, bike, take the bus or train. Actually meet people and get exercise.

What if you live about 20 miles from the nearest town?

There is absolutely no justification for individual cars.

Other than personal choice or convenience, but seriously, who wants those? ;)

Fuck wrong option. I meant: Ban cars and expand public transit

There is absolutely no justification for individual cars. Walk, bike, take the bus or train. Actually meet people and get exercise.

hmm.......me thinks you haven't been everywhere.

I need my individual car.

I'd love to use public transportation. If only they'd (a) make it efficient enough that I could do so and (b) put in freaking bike lanes so I could get from the station to work and such that way.

In a city, you need a safe, cheap and efficient public transport system which it it works should keep down the number of cars on the streets.

In a rural area, it doesn't work so well so you'll end up with more cars and trucks in the more isolated areas.

The problem is stupid governments underfund public transport and let it run down to a stage, people prefer to drive instead of use it (unless they are too poor to have a car).

Fuck wrong option. I meant: Ban cars and expand public transit

There is absolutely no justification for individual cars. Walk, bike, take the bus or train. Actually meet people and get exercise.

While that might be viable in cities, how would that work in the countryside? You couldn't have buses running from house to house, or from every house to the nearest shop.

Ah, well, implicit in the description of my personal situation is the fact that there are two separate (no transfers necessary) bus routes within walking distance of my home, both of which will deliver me almost literally to the front door of the university administration building within 30 minutes.

Public transport isn't always the best solution. It just is for me. :D

Yeah, I know. It's all cool.

I guess I keep my job as wheel man. :)

Flying is boring imo, last year I did a road trip across the US of A from PA to LA, in my fathers Porsche Boxster S.


If I had a boat load of money, I would too, but... ;)

If I had a boat load of money, I would too, but... ;)

It was my high school graduation present :)

Im my new civic SI, its pretty fast, not nearly as fast as his car however.

BUt I think I can fun with 200hp in a 2100 pound car next year.

Take my situation for example, though. I can drive to my university and take 15 minutes or I can take two busses (having the change lines at some point) and take two hours. The university is 10 miles away. I get 40 miles to the gallon, so I burn half a gallon each day. That is about $1.50. Plus say, 20 cents per mile wear and tear on the car. An extra $4.00. Total price, $5.50.

Now, we all know that "time is money". Let us say I work at minimum wage at a crappy job, which is about $7.25 an hour IIRC. An hour and 45 minutes lost time on the bus spent working instead is about $12, or let us call it $10 after the Man takes his piece of the action. Another 1:45 lost on the return trip so double that.

$20 - $5.50 = a net loss of $14.50 daily

So in reality you are losing money by taking the bus in my situation. Even if the bus ride is free.
That's true, and I didn't think of it that way before. However, there are some things which don't fit perfectly:
You didn't subtract the half an hour it takes when you drive. If the person with the minimum wage job had all other costs the same, the total would not be $5.50 but around $9. Or, because you subtracted two dollars from the potential loss, we'll be fair and say $7.

$20 [bus] - $7 [car] = a net loss of $13 daily

Still pretty bad. However, there are other variable you're leaving out. Let's say the monthly payments on the car are $250. (If you get 40 miles to the galleon, that's a pretty good deal.) Assuming a month has 24 working days (you get Sunday off), that's $10.42 per day.
And of course, there is insurance. In 2005, the average premium in the US was $829 (source (http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2007/10/08/daily8.html)). We'll assume the person lives in the state with the lowest, North Dakota, at an average of $554. Per day, that's about $23.

So, in total:
$20 [bus] - ( $7 [gas w/wear and tear] + $10.42 [loan] + $23 [insurance] ) = -$20.42

To even be as bad as this, the bus ride would have to be 2.8 hours, about 2 hours and 48 minutes.

Fuck wrong option. I meant: Ban cars and expand public transit

There is absolutely no justification for individual cars. Walk, bike, take the bus or train. Actually meet people and get exercise.

Right. Because there is actually efficient public transport everywhere.
Oh, wait....

Still pretty bad. However, there are other variable you're leaving out. Let's say the monthly payments on the car are $250. (If you get 40 miles to the galleon, that's a pretty good deal.) Assuming a month has 24 working days (you get Sunday off), that's $10.42 per day.
And of course, there is insurance. In 2005, the average premium in the US was $829 (source (http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2007/10/08/daily8.html)). We'll assume the person lives in the state with the lowest, North Dakota, at an average of $554. Per day, that's about $23.

So, in total:
$20 [bus] - ( $7 [gas w/wear and tear] + $10.42 [loan] + $23 [insurance] ) = -$20.42

To even be as bad as this, the bus ride would have to be 2.8 hours, about 2 hours and 48 minutes.

You make a good point, but my situation won't apply to everyone. I know some people get [a lot] less gas mileage, or longer drives/shorter bus routes. In my own situation I paid for my car with cash. Insurance is about $90 a month (liability). Using the 24 working days a month example and still assuming a loss of $13 daily, it means I would still lose roughly $9 a day (too lazy to bust out the calculator: I am just estimating here).

But yeah my own situation won't work with everyone. I'm on one extreme and some people will be on the other.

Depends where you are.

^^ This. Where I grew up (small city in SE Texas), public transportation was nonexistant. Where I live now (Osaka), it's pretty good.

I don't drive anyway.

You make a good point, but my situation won't apply to everyone. I know some people get [a lot] less gas mileage, or longer drives/shorter bus routes. In my own situation I paid for my car with cash. Insurance is about $90 a month (liability). Using the 24 working days a month example and still assuming a loss of $13 daily, it means I would still lose roughly $9 a day (too lazy to bust out the calculator: I am just estimating here).

But yeah my own situation won't work with everyone. I'm on one extreme and some people will be on the other.
That makes sense. The individual route is probably the most important factor, and that varies for different people.
Now, that being said, I still believe public transit is better in general. Especially if it is well-managed (imagine if your bus ride was only half an hour to the university), it can be both easy and affordable.

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

We have public transit here on NSG? :cool:
*takes commuter train to next thread*

I like public transportation here at OSU because it is significantly cheaper than owning and operating a car, especially when a parking permit costs anywhere from $300-$1100 and insurance costs are through the roof due to the sheer stupidity of most drivers in the area. Plus, by and large, you can't really get anywhere very easily by car to begin with, so it makes ownership of one a waste of time and money for as long as you live on campus. Off-campus, it's a much better deal, especially considering that parking costs are at most 10% of their on-campus level, even for garage parking.

Personally, I would greatly support expanding public transportation, at the very least as an alternative to daily commuting to and from work by car. As great as cars are, it sucks having to commute to and from work in them...that's neither fun, nor interesting, nor something I want to do. I'd rather hop on a train or bus, let someone else drive me to work while I relax and enjoy the ride, and then use my car only for the stuff I want to do.

No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car
QFT! Most don't even turn a profit so they're also a waste of money.

That makes sense. The individual route is probably the most important factor, and that varies for different people.
Now, that being said, I still believe public transit is better in general. Especially if it is well-managed (imagine if your bus ride was only half an hour to the university), it can be both easy and affordable.

Half an hour? I'd easily take it in that case. Avoid the stress of driving and just...relax (if not sleep) on the way there.

Most don't even turn a profit so they're also a waste of money.

:confused:
If they turned a profit, why would money be paid in the first place?

QFT! Most don't even turn a profit so they're also a waste of money.

Your point? When more people use public transportation traffic congestion is lowered and fewer pollutants are produced. Seems like a good thing to subsidize to me.

Your point? When more people use public transportation traffic congestion is lowered and fewer pollutants are produced. Seems like a good thing to subsidize to me.

What we need is more roads. Now in the cities that wont work, but out here. It would be useless.

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "

If an area is dense enough (population-wise), then public transportation is an excellent idea. Unfortunately for me, I live in a rural area, so there is no public transportation that I can take to get to/from work.

What we need is more roads. Now in the cities that wont work, but out here. It would be useless.

Much of road capacity is not used during much of the day. Why not make better use of what we do have?

Fuck wrong option. I meant: Ban cars and expand public transit

There is absolutely no justification for individual cars. Walk, bike, take the bus or train. Actually meet people and get exercise.

What if my job is too far to walk or bike to in a reasonable time, and there's no buses or trains that go between my apartment and job.

I need an individual vehicle to get to/from work. I also use it to get food and other essentials from the store (some of which are up to 25 minutes away by vehicle), visit my parents (over 45 minutes away by vehicle), have used it to help friends and myself move (one of which moved from CT to NH), and transport large items from my relatives house (in southwest CT) to my mom's house (in eastern CT), and vise-versa.

I agree it works down in the cities, but out in the suburbs and country public transit is useless.

What would u rather travel across the country in, a bus or a sports car?


Suburb dweller and I love Transit.
And definatly a bus over a sports car.

Suburb dweller and I love Transit.
And definatly a bus over a sports car.

A smelly boring bus over a high performance sports car? O_o

Nothing like driving a porsche, civic SI, or even a BMW at full tilt on awesome amazing driving roads.

A smelly boring bus over a high performance sports car? O_o

High performance sports bus > car.

A smelly boring bus over a high performance sports car? O_o

Nothing like driving a porsche, civic SI, or even a BMW at full tilt on awesome amazing driving roads.

So you actually have one of these cars? And what of the people that can't afford them? Public transit is a great idea, but it's really limited except inside metropolitan areas. I live in a rural area and except for the Heartland Express (the bus company, not the shipping company) we've got NOTHING in terms of public transportation. Even then, people don't like to use it because it gets expensive fast.

So you actually have one of these cars? And what of the people that can't afford them? Public transit is a great idea, but it's really limited except inside metropolitan areas. I live in a rural area and except for the Heartland Express (the bus company, not the shipping company) we've got NOTHING in terms of public transportation. Even then, people don't like to use it because it gets expensive fast.

Yeah, I have a 07 civic SI, it wasnt expensive, it was only about 23k when its all said and done. ( I just took the boxster S which is my fathers on the trip because he let me use it ).

I agree its a great idea, but I really would never use it myself. Unless it was in a urban area.

For a roadtrip, I'd MUCH rather have a car.

A smelly boring bus over a high performance sports car? O_o

Nothing like driving a porsche, civic SI, or even a BMW at full tilt on awesome amazing driving roads.

If only most of us had amazing driving roads...

I live out in the country, and I drive into the city, Hell I live outside of city limits (unincorporated.) and there's no way a bus is going to come down my street every morning to take me to the school. So I have to drive, which is fine by me. The job I want (which is Occupational Therapist with Home Health) also requires me to have a car, so for me Public Transit is worthless. \

I don't mind paying for bus, I mean with a bus you can pretty much go everywhere, but trains, eh, they only really carry about 2% of commuters in mid-size cities like Charlotte, NC and really have no real impact on congestion, so really a light rail system isn't viable.

Now for big cities like Washington DC, New York City, I can see the need for a rail system, but not for cities like Charlotte, NC.

A smelly boring bus over a high performance sports car? O_o

Nothing like driving a porsche, civic SI, or even a BMW at full tilt on awesome amazing driving roads.

Cars are just as boring as buses except buses have more people and there is always at least one interesting person.

Plus I don't need a penis extention, being female as I am.

Yeah, I have a 07 civic SI, it wasnt expensive, it was only about 23k when its all said and done. ( I just took the boxster S which is my fathers on the trip because he let me use it ).

I agree its a great idea, but I really would never use it myself. Unless it was in a urban area.

For a roadtrip, I'd MUCH rather have a car.

I suppose that isn't so bad for the people that can afford it. But for people that can't, public transit is still the way to go.
As far as roadtrips go, it'd pretty much suck to be on a greyhound the whole way, I agree there. Now if only Minnesota could actually afford to fix the roads OUTSIDE the Metro area so we could have those nice driving roads you claim exist. Trust me, you take highway 71 from Wilmar to Redwood Falls and you'll see that we have no nice driving roads. Scenic, yes (especially right about now with the leaves changing color); good driving, no.
That's actually our problem, no funding. We take in all this money for MNDOT, and it's SUPPOSED to go equally all over the state, but it doesn't. Some goes to projects like the Light Rail, which is failing despite what they say, some more goes to PATCHING roads, and the money that's supposed to go to fixing the roads all over Minnesota goes to new projects in the Twin Cites.

Cars are just as boring as buses except buses have more people and there is always at least one interesting person.

Plus I don't need a penis extention, being female as I am.

I'd hardly call a 200 horsepower civic a penis extenstion, the porsche could be considered one.

I strongly beleive that people who think cars are boring have never driven a truely good car.

I definitely prefer public transit, when it exists. I don't think I actually drove my car more than a dozen times during the year I lived in New Jersey, for example.

Sadly, I currently live in an area with no public transit whatsoever. Until I move somewhere else, I'm pretty well stuck with my car, seeing as the nearest grocery store is about thirty minutes' drive away.

A smelly boring bus over a high performance sports car? O_o
I'll take the Shinkansen (Bullet train) over a sports car. They are far more comfortable, they will get you where you need to go on the MINUTE (Japan's obsessive about that), no traffic jams, and (For Japan, this is VERY important), you don't have to worry about parking.

I do own and drive a car reguarly in Japan due to living out in the countryside, but of a lot of my journeys around and about are done via public transportation due to cost, ease, comfort, and good train snacks.

Besides, Japan doesn't have roads, it has small, narrow goat tracks that the Ministry of Transportation has laughingly desginated as a major highway with two way traffic.

...and good train snacks.


ekiben! :D

ekiben! :D
I've fallen in love with the apple ice cream JR serves on its Nagano trains. It's worth using Shinano just for that. ;)

the salvation of humanity if done right, which in most places it has yet to be.

public transportation created civilization, the automobile destroyed it.

yes i know cities, which is what the romans meant when they invented the word, existed before mechanical transportation of any kind, but that's not what cameroi, carlemnaria, lananara, or my mundane self means by it.

nothing has always been nor will always be, and that certainly goes for the deifycation of personal mechanical transportation.

parks not parking lots, parking lots into parks and gardens, paths to walk with places to stop and sit down instead of streets to get run over crossing, reading a good book instead of crawling under a car to keep it running or indenturing oneself to pay someone else to do so. sure, driving COULD be fun. IF it wasn't something almost everyone HAD to do!

difference between riding in someone's car and riding a train or trolly? seeing out the front. a problem readily solved with closed circuit tv out the front and 'inflight' screens at the seats, which could double as information look up and even destiniation request entry for intelligent automated dispatching.

cost? yes it exists certainly. combined cost of right of way and vehicules about comperable, just distributed differently. energy consumption and land use many times more efficient when talking public transit (on guideway) vs private (rubber tyre on pavement) vehicules. (and that may become essential for human survival, or even for mechanical transportation to exist in a fossel fuel depleted future. something, though in all likelyhood well beyond my life time, i look forward to with a certain degree of enthusiasm).

doing it right? forms that have seldom been considered. and i don't mean remaining to be invented. they have and been demonstrated and proven. more a mater of culture and politics then advancement of tecnology at this point. other then a few aspects of that automated dispatching.

all the peices exist, it's a matter of putting them togather the most useful and affordable way.

little people sized 'trains', the/an answer to demand penitration sufficient to replace the utility and even gratification of personal transportation in all but the absolutely lowest population density of contexts. also to cost of energy and materials, looking to a future when both might be once again at a premium, as will be likely as resources become depleted by existing population overloads.

if that sounds cryptic its my attempt to synopsize.

guideway based people scale transit, my first and ultimate love. along with noncombustion means of generating the energy to propell it and do everything else we need of find that useful for.

=^^=
.../\...

(it is also my feeling that if you're not supporting public transit, you are, whether you realize it or not, and to be kind i'll presume not doing so intentionally, supporting environmental devistation and indifference to it, AND tyrannical international economic colonization! (unless you just absolutely go everywhere that you do, entirely and exclusively by walking))

=^^=
.../\...

Meh, in Milan it is practically impossible to use cars to commute, due to massive everyday influx of commuters' cars from the hinterland.
Most of Milanese (above 70%) commute inside Milan by public transportation - the underground is overcrowded and the surface lines are often slowed by private traffic, but overall it gets the job done.
Most of the people (above 60%) living in the hinterland must reach Milan by car, because their towns are served by buses only. However, there are some areas of the hinterland reached by regional railway or the underground. Most people (above 50%) in such areas choose public transportation.

So, hell yes, more public transportation all the way, more funding, get rid of the gas-guzzling smelly noisy things - at least for everyday commuting!

Public transport=good. I don't have much cause to use it these days, though last year I used it 4 times a week.

I'm out in the suburbs. We don't have any public transportation out here. The buses don't come out this far away from the city. But it's only a 10 minute drive to my school (5 without the traffic). There are school buses but they told us that we live too close to the school to be allowed to use them. But I'm not going to walk, since that would require crossing the intersection of two different six-lane highways where I've seen people running red lights several times before. I wouldn't feel safe. Besides, it's hard enough to get my brothers ready in time for school as it is, since it's my responsibility to drive them there. We'd never get there on time if we had to walk, and there isn't any public transportation that we can use.

Public transport where I live is very good. I have the choice of the train, 2 trams, or a bus.

That's true, and I didn't think of it that way before. However, there are some things which don't fit perfectly:
You didn't subtract the half an hour it takes when you drive. If the person with the minimum wage job had all other costs the same, the total would not be $5.50 but around $9. Or, because you subtracted two dollars from the potential loss, we'll be fair and say $7.

$20 [bus] - $7 [car] = a net loss of $13 daily

Still pretty bad. However, there are other variable you're leaving out. Let's say the monthly payments on the car are $250. (If you get 40 miles to the galleon, that's a pretty good deal.) Assuming a month has 24 working days (you get Sunday off), that's $10.42 per day.
And of course, there is insurance. In 2005, the average premium in the US was $829 (source (http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2007/10/08/daily8.html)). We'll assume the person lives in the state with the lowest, North Dakota, at an average of $554. Per day, that's about $23.

So, in total:
$20 [bus] - ( $7 [gas w/wear and tear] + $10.42 [loan] + $23 [insurance] ) = -$20.42

To even be as bad as this, the bus ride would have to be 2.8 hours, about 2 hours and 48 minutes.

You make a good point, but my situation won't apply to everyone. I know some people get [a lot] less gas mileage, or longer drives/shorter bus routes. In my own situation I paid for my car with cash. Insurance is about $90 a month (liability). Using the 24 working days a month example and still assuming a loss of $13 daily, it means I would still lose roughly $9 a day (too lazy to bust out the calculator: I am just estimating here).

But yeah my own situation won't work with everyone. I'm on one extreme and some people will be on the other.

Also, I could point out that it is impossible to simply apply an hourly wage cost lost to time spent on the bus. Unlike driving, where this becomes the activity performed during your commute, when I was a student I used my time on the bus to complete any required textbook readings, to write rough drafts of assignments, etc. So that most days by the time I got home I had almost zero homework to complete.

Also, public transit is great for teens in that they no longer have to rely upon parents to taxi them around (and great for the parents for that reason as well). Especially in northern climes where four months of the year make for almost impossible alternatives like biking.

That being said, everyone's situation is diffferent. To be useful in most cases, transit has to come fairly close to matching a commute time by car and significantly cheaper before people will use it. The ability to get other errands done along the way is just too darned convenient in a car otherwise.

And given that most transit systems are primarily geared for getting people too (and from) the suburbs to the city center during standard working hours - there are a lot of people to whom this doesn't apply.

Aragh, don't get me started on British public transport. Especially the fucking mental bus system we have.

public transit is already quite good were I live, but it could use some more funding. Parts of the closest city are made car-free (except for public transit and ambulances etc) with good effects.

That's true, and I didn't think of it that way before. However, there are some things which don't fit perfectly:
You didn't subtract the half an hour it takes when you drive. If the person with the minimum wage job had all other costs the same, the total would not be $5.50 but around $9. Or, because you subtracted two dollars from the potential loss, we'll be fair and say $7.

$20 [bus] - $7 [car] = a net loss of $13 daily

Still pretty bad. However, there are other variable you're leaving out. Let's say the monthly payments on the car are $250. (If you get 40 miles to the galleon, that's a pretty good deal.) Assuming a month has 24 working days (you get Sunday off), that's $10.42 per day.
And of course, there is insurance. In 2005, the average premium in the US was $829 (source (http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2007/10/08/daily8.html)). We'll assume the person lives in the state with the lowest, North Dakota, at an average of $554. Per day, that's about $23.

So, in total:
$20 [bus] - ( $7 [gas w/wear and tear] + $10.42 [loan] + $23 [insurance] ) = -$20.42

To even be as bad as this, the bus ride would have to be 2.8 hours, about 2 hours and 48 minutes.

the bus isnt cutting into your work hours; its cutting into your leisure hours. its actual cost is no more than the price of the bus. it might even save you money if the extra time spent keeps you from idle shopping or stopping for a drink after work. (or cost you more if the commute time means that you dont really have time to cook and must eat out more)

public transit isnt a substitute for a car. there are many times when you need to get somewhere efficiently or where the bus doesnt go. i live in the middle of nowhere and cant get along without a car. (but we do have only 1 car for myself and my husband) however i would love it if they would extend the commuter train down here so i could take it to albuquerque or santa fe on occasion.

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "
I love public transit, and will never willingly live in a city without it. It is absolutely wonderful to never have to worry about car payments, car insurance, car repairs, car parking, and on and on and on. Maybe someday I'll have a car around for emergencies or special situations (like needing to move furniture or something), but I hope to never have to use one on a regular basis.

I love public transit, and will never willingly live in a city without it. It is absolutely wonderful to never have to worry about car payments, car insurance, car repairs, car parking, and on and on and on. Maybe someday I'll have a car around for emergencies or special situations (like needing to move furniture or something), but I hope to never have to use one on a regular basis.

Maybe its just different people then, for me I couldnt live without a car, I'd literally want to kill myself. As soon as this Sports Incjected ( dont ask, werid name I know ) SI Civic, I plan on getting more cars.

I love public transit, and will never willingly live in a city without it. It is absolutely wonderful to never have to worry about car payments, car insurance, car repairs, car parking, and on and on and on. Maybe someday I'll have a car around for emergencies or special situations (like needing to move furniture or something), but I hope to never have to use one on a regular basis.

I'd love to be in a situation where it made more sense not to have a car than to have one. My first year of university was good without one. I got more exercise, saved money and could drink more but at home I live way too far from anything to do without it and I now need a car at university to drive to the nearest dropzone.

I'd love to be in a situation where it made more sense not to have a car than to have one. My first year of university was good without one. I got more exercise, saved money and could drink more but at home I live way too far from anything to do without it and I now need a car at university to drive to the nearest dropzone.

Matter teleportation man. It's only a matter of time.

Matter teleportation man. It's only a matter of time.

Pffft it already exists. Every time i'm drunk I suddenly go from one place to another in a second.......at least it seems like a second

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "

I live in in Londn, UK and since we have got Red ken as Mayor, the buses are much better as are the tubes, the trains are still a pain though.

NJTransit is better.

He speaks the troof!

The two years I lived in Philly I used to come home every few weeks on the SEPTA line to Trenton, and then the NJT line to where I live. Smooth, I only ever had an issue with the train on two occasions, one from a back-up of trains that meant no platforms were available, and one when the train was delayed half an hour.

That's twice in two years.

I like public transportation, though I don't use it much at the moment.

Pffft it already exists. Every time i'm drunk I suddenly go from one place to another in a second.......at least it seems like a second

Someone needs to get Stephen Hawking reasearching this.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "
Where I live, to get from the ferry pier to work by bus would take me well over an hour, costing ~$1US.
By taxi, it would take just under 1 hour and cost me over $20US.
By car, it would also take just under 1 hour and would cost me $4US for harbour tunnel tolls alone.

By subway train, it takes me 25 minutes and costs me $1.50US.

yeah. never ever as good as a car.

Where I live, to get from the ferry pier to work by bus would take me well over an hour, costing ~$1US.
By taxi, it would take just under 1 hour and cost me over $20US.
By car, it would also take just under 1 hour and would cost me $4US for harbour tunnel tolls alone.

By subway train, it takes me 25 minutes and costs me $1.50US.

yeah. never ever as good as a car.

I agree, public transport is good in cities, but useless elsewhere imo. Even I use it down in the city ( althrough in pittsburgh its horrid )

The day I see america in a greyhound bus is the day I kill myself.


If you liked that qoute, you'll love these.

" The best public transit systen in the world coupled to a plane that arrvied early, was beaten by a car " - Jeremy Clarkson

PT is definitely a good idea in big cities, but it would never work, let alone replace the necessity for cars, in the suburbs, more rural areas and especially the country.

Cars are one of the ultimate means of individual personal freedom. So even if it could somehow work everywhere, I would still never go 100% PT.


RE POLL: The neo/eco-fascist, enviro-evangelists (or eco-evangelist nuts) are out in full force I see. Calling an ideological movement such as this, merely quasi- authoritarian or totalitarian, (if not socialistic too) would be a massive understatement.


Other than personal choice or convenience, but seriously, who wants those? ;)
Don't forget personal freedom.


---

the salvation of humanity if done right, which in most places it has yet to be.

public transportation created civilization, the automobile destroyed it.

yes i know cities, which is what the romans meant when they invented the word, existed before mechanical transportation of any kind, but that's not what cameroi, carlemnaria, lananara, or my mundane self means by it.

nothing has always been nor will always be, and that certainly goes for the deifycation of personal mechanical transportation.

parks not parking lots, parking lots into parks and gardens, paths to walk with places to stop and sit down instead of streets to get run over crossing, reading a good book instead of crawling under a car to keep it running or indenturing oneself to pay someone else to do so. sure, driving COULD be fun. IF it wasn't something almost everyone HAD to do!

difference between riding in someone's car and riding a train or trolly? seeing out the front. a problem readily solved with closed circuit tv out the front and 'inflight' screens at the seats, which could double as information look up and even destiniation request entry for intelligent automated dispatching.

cost? yes it exists certainly. combined cost of right of way and vehicules about comperable, just distributed differently. energy consumption and land use many times more efficient when talking public transit (on guideway) vs private (rubber tyre on pavement) vehicules. (and that may become essential for human survival, or even for mechanical transportation to exist in a fossel fuel depleted future. something, though in all likelyhood well beyond my life time, i look forward to with a certain degree of enthusiasm).

doing it right? forms that have seldom been considered. and i don't mean remaining to be invented. they have and been demonstrated and proven. more a mater of culture and politics then advancement of tecnology at this point. other then a few aspects of that automated dispatching.

all the peices exist, it's a matter of putting them togather the most useful and affordable way.

little people sized 'trains', the/an answer to demand penitration sufficient to replace the utility and even gratification of personal transportation in all but the absolutely lowest population density of contexts. also to cost of energy and materials, looking to a future when both might be once again at a premium, as will be likely as resources become depleted by existing population overloads.

if that sounds cryptic its my attempt to synopsize.

guideway based people scale transit, my first and ultimate love. along with noncombustion means of generating the energy to propell it and do everything else we need of find that useful for.

=^^=
.../\...

(it is also my feeling that if you're not supporting public transit, you are, whether you realize it or not, and to be kind i'll presume not doing so intentionally, supporting environmental devistation and indifference to it, AND tyrannical international economic colonization! (unless you just absolutely go everywhere that you do, entirely and exclusively by walking))

=^^=
.../\...
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Guys, I swear that I didn't read this post till after writing up my reply! No joke.

Cars are one of the ultimate means of individual personal freedom.

Except when you're in a traffic jam. Then it's apparently a means to cooperative imprisonment.

Don't forget that you can't make your own gas. Apparently all these free individuals still have to line up and pay at the pump. Most people can't fix their own car, either. Tell me, did you feel like a rugged individual when you were waiting to get your tires fixed? Face it, without a garage every few hundred kilometers, cars would be useless.

A vehicle that truly provides personal individual freedom is one that you can repair yourself and power yourself. It goes everywhere, when you need it to. A horse provides more freedom than a car.

Public transport is a joyous thing and one of the worst aspects about living in LA. Whenever I'm back in London I jump on and off buses with gay abandon and ask myself why I live in such a terribly evolved city.

Public transit in my area sucks, my city is too spread out and we haven't enough buses.

I don't mind paying taxes for it though because it does serve people who need it and are willing to put up with the crap of being either 2 hours early or 3 hours late wherever you are going, even if it does take 6 bus changes and $16 to get there.

Cars are much better suited for getting around in my area. I try to carpool as much as possible.
Public transit is far better suited to dense urban areas. I've used MARTA regularly, but it's always a pain to find the right bus from the train station and the bus schedules just don't seem to be in sync with the trains.

Consequently, I quit working downtown.

Except when you're in a traffic jam. Then it's apparently a means to cooperative imprisonment.

Don't forget that you can't make your own gas. Apparently all these free individuals still have to line up and pay at the pump. Most people can't fix their own car, either. Tell me, did you feel like a rugged individual when you were waiting to get your tires fixed? Face it, without a garage every few hundred kilometers, cars would be useless.

A vehicle that truly provides personal individual freedom is one that you can repair yourself and power yourself. It goes everywhere, when you need it to. A horse provides more freedom than a car.

In the world we live in now, its possible to make a car by yourself, power it with bio desial ( just vegatble oil ) and make your own parts in a machine shop.

And I think when he means freedom, he means its kinda like " I can go pretty much wherever I want, when I want and no one is saying I cant PT cant do that "

Also, PT is hopelessly useless outside of cities.

I can repair my car myself, all you need are basic tools and a repair guide.

In my opinion, the only people who dont like cars are boring, or have never driven a truely good car.

Like people who like hyrbrids, EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

The quality of public transit (Translink) depends where you are, and where you are going. If you are near the outer edges of Greater Vancouver, you should expect to be late. The buses run much less frequently (every half hour to hour instead of every ten to fifteen minutes); are much more frequently late, early, or absent; and are more likely to miss people do to being full.

Also, if you are going to a university, you can expect similar problems. Here the universities cut a deal with Translink. We get a greatly discounted rate (about 50% off) provided every student buys. Translink has no reason to send more buses here as it would not increase profits, but the schools could not back out of the deal as a significant portion of the uni population is reliant on the deal to get to campus and would otherwise have to drop out (estimates are in the area of 4,000 drop outs if the deal were to end).

Otherwise, transit is fairly decent. If you can take the train, it is a great way to go, as is the SkyTrain.

Except that I don't have to buy, fuel, maintain, insure or drive the bus myself and the financial cost is split up among a multitude of users, so the cost I shoulder alone is far reduced.

Shoot, the cost I shoulder is exactly $0 as the university transportation department made a deal with the county public transit authority.

Zero personal cost, zero personal responsibility. Public transport FTW!

Oooh, my school does that. It's really convenient to just have to scan my Student ID and not pay. Even though the city's public transit doesn't run on Sundays... :headbang:

Except that I don't have to buy, fuel, maintain, insure or drive the bus myself and the financial cost is split up among a multitude of users, so the cost I shoulder alone is far reduced.

Shoot, the cost I shoulder is exactly $0 as the university transportation department made a deal with the county public transit authority.

Zero personal cost, zero personal responsibility. Public transport FTW!My school did that, but in spite not having to pay for bus use, I still drive to school.

Oooh, my school does that. It's really convenient to just have to scan my Student ID and not pay. Even though the city's public transit doesn't run on Sundays... :headbang:

Theres my point, if PT isnt running or is late, its bad.

In a car you just put the keys in and go.

Since I needed a ride somewhere tomorrow I looked up the bus schedule here......

apparently I have to walk 8 miles to the nearest bus stop arrive there 3 hours before I am supposed to be where I am going, ride for 40 minutes, then walk another 3 miles to my destination, to get back I have to walk for 7 miles (no bus going in the right direction is at the stop at the right time 3 miles away, unless we want to sit on the bench for 4 hours) and then ride for 1 hour, and walk the 8 miles to get back home.

I think I would be better off calling a cab.Your bus situation sucks infinitely more than mine.

Since I needed a ride somewhere tomorrow I looked up the bus schedule here......

apparently I have to walk 8 miles to the nearest bus stop arrive there 3 hours before I am supposed to be where I am going, ride for 40 minutes, then walk another 3 miles to my destination, to get back I have to walk for 7 miles (no bus going in the right direction is at the stop at the right time 3 miles away, unless we want to sit on the bench for 4 hours) and then ride for 1 hour, and walk the 8 miles to get back home.

I think I would be better off calling a cab.

Your bus situation sucks infinitely more than mine.

which is what I keep saying to the "people who don't take public transportation are evil" crowd.

public transpo here sucks ass.....

Theres my point, if PT isnt running or is late, its bad.

In a car you just put the keys in and go.

And then get stuck in traffic for hours.

which is what I keep saying to the "people who don't take public transportation are evil" crowd.

public transpo here sucks ass.....While transit can be a PITA, it does redeem itself by being able to get you into and out of downtown like nobodies business. To drive downtown midday or during a sports event can take up to three hours, while transit can get you there in twenty minutes.

While transit can be a PITA, it does redeem itself by being able to get you into and out of downtown like nobodies business. To drive downtown midday or during a sports event can take up to three hours, while transit can get you there in twenty minutes.

in my area it's just faster to drive, I have only been stuck in traffic once in the past 5 years and it was because of a wreck on the highway while it was being repaired so there wasn't a shoulder.

As gas gets more and more expensive and people make less and less disposible income pt will become a more viable source of transportation. Until then I will drive and love it. Besides it's hard to get around on the bus when you have kids.

in my area it's just faster to drive, I have only been stuck in traffic once in the past 5 years and it was because of a wreck on the highway while it was being repaired so there wasn't a shoulder.The geography here does not support allot of roadway. Vancouver has also grown so much that most room allocated for road expansion has been used up. There is about as much road as there is ever gonna be in Vancouver.

The geography here does not support allot of roadway. Vancouver has also grown so much that most room allocated for road expansion has been used up. There is about as much road as there is ever gonna be in Vancouver.

Vancouver is tiny

Vancouver has an area of 114 square kilometres (44 sq mi)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver

my city is huge and spread out......and I have to drive from one end to the other nearly daily.

According to the United States Census Bureau, the city has a total area of 1,608.8 km² (621.2 mi²).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_city

Vancouver is tiny

Vancouver has an area of 114 square kilometres (44 sq mi)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver

my city is huge and spread out......and I have to drive from one end to the other nearly daily.

According to the United States Census Bureau, the city has a total area of 1,608.8 km² (621.2 mi²).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_cityConsidering they have the same population, yeah, you got yourself a hell of a point.

Most of our suburbs are denser than your actual city. Sad.

Theres my point, if PT isnt running or is late, its bad.

In a car you just put the keys in and go.
And in Tokyo you'll grind to a hault and spend hours sitting in traffic going nowhere.

I've never had that problem with the trains in Japan and when I say they always run on time, I mean it. If the bloody Shinkansen is 2 minutes late it makes the national news.

I can take the expressway (There are no freeways in Japan) to Nagano City from where I live. The trip takes about 70 minutes and would cost me, round trip, about $20. But I can't leave the expressway unless I want to pay for it, and the truckers on the road seem to be determined to prove themselves to be worthy of their Kamikaze pilot grandfather.

I could take the surface roads and not pay anything beyond the gas cost (And parking), but it would take me about 2 to 3 hours, and I'd be sure to get caught in a traffic jam.

By local train, it takes me 80 minutes, they run every hour. Said trains are nice and warm in the winter and A/C'ed in the summer. I can read a book and relax. The cost is, round trip, about $8.

If I'm REALLY in a hurry, I can take an express train and get there in 50 minutes and costs, round trip, about $40.

PT is much better here in Japan than cars.

things are different in different places :eek:
Very true, which is why a blanket statement about how cars are ALWAYS better than PT is very wrong.

And in Tokyo you'll grind to a hault and spend hours sitting in traffic going nowhere.

I've never had that problem with the trains in Japan and when I say they always run on time, I mean it. If the bloody Shinkansen is 2 minutes late it makes the national news.

I can take the expressway (There are no freeways in Japan) to Nagano City from where I live. The trip takes about 70 minutes and would cost me, round trip, about $20. But I can't leave the expressway unless I want to pay for it, and the truckers on the road seem to be determined to prove themselves to be worthy of their Kamikaze pilot grandfather.

I could take the surface roads and not pay anything beyond the gas cost (And parking), but it would take me about 2 to 3 hours, and I'd be sure to get caught in a traffic jam.

By local train, it takes me 80 minutes, they run every hour. Said trains are nice and warm in the winter and A/C'ed in the summer. I can read a book and relax. The cost is, round trip, about $8.

If I'm REALLY in a hurry, I can take an express train and get there in 50 minutes and costs, round trip, about $40.

PT is much better here in Japan than cars.

things are different in different places :eek:

Shame on you Smunkee, you got me caught up on Wikipedia for the last 40 minutes when I should be doing my homework.

Very true, which is why a blanket statement about how cars are ALWAYS better than PT is very wrong.

also the other way around;)

We could have a good train system in NZ (The government has more than enough money but it stupidly doesn't spend it!). I go on a crappy electric train. It breaks down periodically, it is always late, it charges 50 cents less than Australia's train system, and the trains here are terrible! - I lived in Melbourne for a year and a bit so I can compare, it was much nicer train wise. :) But I go on the trains in NZ because it is cheaper (and more environmentally friendly) than taking a car, and it escapes the traffic!;)

HK has prob the best public transport system in the world.
The subway (MTR or KCR) runs from 5am to 1am, average wait time between trains on ALL lines is just over 2 minutes. Subway stations are, on average, 2 minutes traveling-time from each other.
It takes ~20 minutes to travel to the airport 40km away on the train (better yet, you can check your luggage in the middle of town before hopping on the train). Try traveling 40km out of the middle of any big city during rush hour and see how long it takes.
Dearest fare is $1.50US, cheapest is $0.50US, making HK the third cheapest subway line in the world after Shanghai and another city whose name escapes me (I only know this cause it was in the WSJ last week).
coupled with the subway are the bus lines. doubledecker buses that can take you pretty much anywhere. The dearest fare is <$2US.
And then there's the minibuses - basically oversized vans than seat 16 - that link bus routes to the subway station and to every street in that area. They go constantly day and night. Fares <$1US.
Thus, it would prob take 90 minutes to get from one end of HK (HK as in the whole area, not just the island) to the other end, and cost you ~$3-4US.

To add to all this we also have what's called an Octopus card. Every station, bus and minibus has them. You don;t pay money, just swipe your card over the reader and it automatically deducts it. I have mine set up so when it reaches $0, it automatically charges my visa $250HK (~$30US) to top it up. Best thing is that supermarkets, 7/11s and other stores accept it, so I don't need to worry about running low on cash.

It's one of the things that really puts me off moving back to NZ - their public transport system is a total joke. 40+ minute wait between buses, trains always late...ughh.

I'd love to be in a situation where it made more sense not to have a car than to have one. My first year of university was good without one. I got more exercise, saved money and could drink more but at home I live way too far from anything to do without it and I now need a car at university to drive to the nearest dropzone.
Yeah, it helps that I live literally two blocks from where I work.

The one major reason I could see for wanting a car would be if you had a kid. I remember trying to get around with my baby brother when he was small, and trying to manage using only mass transit would be a real pain. Babies aren't patient, and babies have lots of minor emergencies throughout the day, so you can't really schedule their needs around the mass transit schedule. Plus, if that baby has a serious emergency I would not be okay with waiting for the bus or a cab or something...I'd want to be moving NOW NOW NOW NOW to get help for the baby.

Theres my point, if PT isnt running or is late, its bad.

In a car you just learn how to drive it, buy it, get a license, pay for insurance, pay for fuel, pay for regular maintainence, pay for any repairs put the keys in and go, unless you're out of fuel or the car isn't working for some other reason.
Fixed.

In the world we live in now, its possible to make a car by yourself, power it with bio desial ( just vegatble oil ) and make your own parts in a machine shop.

The amount of people with the requisite knowledge and experience to build their own engines and make their own fuel is so small as to insignificant.

And I think when he means freedom, he means its kinda like " I can go pretty much wherever I want, when I want and no one is saying I cant PT cant do that "

And I think the person is deluding themselves with a mythology based mostly around US car ads.

Also, PT is hopelessly useless outside of cities.

In many cases, you are correct. However, European and Japanese train systems show that you are incorrect in other cases.

I can repair my car myself, all you need are basic tools and a repair guide.

And parts. Unless you have a machine shop and can build them yourself. And this is assuming you have a car that doesn't need specialised tools, either. I would be impressed if you could describe to me how to rewire your ignition system. I doubt very much that the majority of car drivers know how to do that.

I can't vote in the poll, it needs another option for me:

*Good Idea, but it needs to pay for itself.

If a 200 passenger train (for example) can't run for the same or less cost than 200 individual cars so the customer can save money or hassle without paying more then the train design is flawed and should not have been built/purchased/maintained at all.

Additionally, if an old and out of date mass transit stops paying for itself, it should be dropped, not subsidized indefinitely.

I take the bus, granted it doesn't have the convience of a personal car, but it does save me money.

$25 = Monthly bus pass (which my job pays for half of that, the other half is taken out of my paycheck automatically.)

car = you have insurance which runs (here anyway) into the thousands (annually), auto tax which is about $50 - $60 annually, Safety inspection fees, Gas which can run $60 monthly (and that's only going to and from work.), parking is also a problem. monthly parking in the city can run from $100 a month and up.

add to that the excercise I get from public transportation...

public transportation works for me.

I can't vote in the poll, it needs another option for me:

*Good Idea, but it needs to pay for itself.

If a 200 passenger train (for example) can't run for the same or less cost than 200 individual cars so the customer can save money or hassle without paying more then the train design is flawed and should not have been built/purchased/maintained at all.

Additionally, if an old and out of date mass transit stops paying for itself, it should be dropped, not subsidized indefinitely.
And how, pray tell, do you work out that it's paying for itself?
Can't just go on 'cost of running 200 cars' <> 'cost of running 200 passenger train'.
What of the savings to the city of having 200 less cars on the road?
The savings from not needing to maintain roads as often?
The savings of not needing to build new roads?
The savings of not needing to build more carparking?
The savings from being able to develop further out because of said public transport?
The savings from being able to develop pedestrian and cycle friendly inner-city areas?
The savings to the environment from having 200 less cars on the road?
The savings to overall workhours from 200 less people being stuck in rush-hour traffic 2+ hours a day?
There's more, nut that's all I can think off the top of my head right now.

for cities it is clearly better than a car unless you need to transport stuff (having said that i've moved house by bus/bicycle). in rural areas a standard public transit network does not work (at least not profitably). schemes that have and do work include on demand minibuses that also run to a loose scheduled route. however, for those that can driving is much better in rural areas.

Subways are useful, but buses tend to be crap. There's a reason the northern Toronto subways have enormous parking lots. On the other hand, when I'm downtown and drunk after the subways have stopped, the traffic has cleared up enough that a bus can get you where you're going fairly quickly.

What if you live about 20 miles from the nearest town?Even if you live 20 miles out of town public transit works remember most people who live 20 miles out of town dont work in the city.but remember this also opens door for people who cant afford a car and want to work in the city for better pay options also if you ban cars it makes transit even better you can then afford a top notch system that runs on time with bus train and air options remember helicoptors can get to the city or anywhere alot faster and we all can afford it if your not paying for cars

It needs more funding. It also needs to run sporadically (at least) all hours of the night, or at least until ~2-3am when the bars are closing. And as always, cheaper fares is better.

Wondering what everyone thinks about public transit here on NSG.

My opinion is summed up by this qoute " No Matter how good public transit is, no matter how much it runs like clockwork, It'll never ever be as good as a car "

I think it's brilliant. I never had a car, and never missed it in all my years.

What if you live about 20 miles from the nearest town?

I live in a small town, 40 miles from my work place. To get to work, I've got 2 bus companies and the train to choose from. I honestly can't complain.

I think having a car is selfish and anti-social, unless it's absolutely necessary, like in rural situations. Suburbia is evil. I know I lived there. Ecologically, a mixture of dense urban areas, where everything is close together and accessible through public transportation, and rural areas is the best. Who the hell really wants to live in a Suburban hellhole anyway. There's nothing there and 99% of families there are really messed up in some way. Suburbia is the reason we have so many damn cars.

It works wherever the population density allows it to work (CHI, NYC, Tokyo, LDN, etc.). If the US had trains like Japan has trains, I'd sell my car tomorrow. Unfortunately, where populations are not as dense as metropolae, it cannot work very well, and the less dense the population, the less effective it is. I've lived in Bismarck, North Dakota for goin' on 3 years, and I can't imagine transit working here...and there IS transit here. The majority of the nation is too big to be well covered by transit. Cities in the West were never laid out for it.

Henry Ford and the early oil barons made sure it never happened. A car is indeed selfish, but only where reliable, efficient and convenient rtansit exists. I can't imagine driving in Manhattan, for example.

Public transit rocks in highly urban areas, no doubt. Cars are excellent too. I think it really matters on how important you place global warming.

*braces for arguments over global warming*

I coincidentally found this great article. Please read. http://www.newstatesman.com/200701250004

You wanna get to work at 8 in the morning and home again at 5?

Public transit.

You need your car to drive around and do your work?

Car.

Going on a holiday?

Car. Possibly use of trains, airplanes, etc...

Point is, public transit is supposed to ease up on rush hour. A lot of people are taking their cars to a place that could easily be reached by public transit. Even if it takes them five-ten minutes more to reach it, it'll be cheaper for them, for society and for the world.

If I ever ran a business, I would encourage people to be those five-ten minutes late IF they used public transit, but if they use cars, then force them to be on time.

I can't vote in the poll, it needs another option for me:

*Good Idea, but it needs to pay for itself.

If a 200 passenger train (for example) can't run for the same or less cost than 200 individual cars so the customer can save money or hassle without paying more then the train design is flawed and should not have been built/purchased/maintained at all.

Additionally, if an old and out of date mass transit stops paying for itself, it should be dropped, not subsidized indefinitely.

If it needs to pay for itself, then so should the roads that you drive your car on.

I suppose we would hear some cry-outs if that happened.

Point is, public transit is supposed to ease up on rush hour. A lot of people are taking their cars to a place that could easily be reached by public transit. Even if it takes them five-ten minutes more to reach it, it'll be cheaper for them, for society and for the world.

If I ever ran a business, I would encourage people to be those five-ten minutes late IF they used public transit, but if they use cars, then force them to be on time.

Too bad there isn't any public transportation out here... :(

I only drive maybe a little more than 20 miles total in a week though... but there wouldn't be any other safer way to get to school with my brothers who always delay and try to sleep in until the last minute and slow me down. I wouldn't feel safe walking across the intersection of two six-lane roads with speed limits of 45 and 50 mph anyway, and I can't ride a bike.

I've always really liked trains. Not buses, but trains. I think trains and light rail are great.

Too bad there isn't any public transportation out here... :(

I only drive maybe a little more than 20 miles total in a week though... but there wouldn't be any other safer way to get to school with my brothers who always delay and try to sleep in until the last minute and slow me down. I wouldn't feel safe walking across the intersection of two six-lane roads with speed limits of 45 and 50 mph anyway, and I can't ride a bike.

Obviously my decision will have to be based on whether or not public transit is even available.

In fact, I might even consider making a business regarding public transit if it weren't :p

I do understand the whole crossing a street thing though - I didn't have to do that with a bus to my old school until my last two years, after which there was no way not to relocate the stop to the other side of the road.

Having a pedestrian crossing really helps in those situations.

Obviously my decision will have to be based on whether or not public transit is even available.

In fact, I might even consider making a business regarding public transit if it weren't :p

I do understand the whole crossing a street thing though - I didn't have to do that with a bus to my old school until my last two years, after which there was no way not to relocate the stop to the other side of the road.

Having a pedestrian crossing really helps in those situations.

They won't even let my ride the bus to school. They say I live too close. But the only way for me to walk to school would be to cross the intersection of those two streets I mentioned earlier. So driving is best in my case.

I don't really like driving that much either. I just like that it means that I don't have to inconvenience my mom so that she has to drive me and that I can get home around three o'clock instead of around 5:30 PM which is what used to happen when I walked over to the YMCA and waited there until my parents got off work and could pick me up.

I'd be screwed without it. I could only barely afford to run a car with what i'm earning at the moment, and if i'm studying and have to cut down my hours, it's impossible.

The roads in America are genuinely mental. I'd heard the stories but I've yet to come to terms with not being able to cross the street without a car or having to move between individual shops in a car.