NationStates Jolt Archive

LINK: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21221278/


Is it just me, or is this another way the Dem's are trying to stop the Iraq war? Honestly, that's the first thing I thought while reading through this article.

What also strikes me is that it is incredibly obvious that this will hurt US-Turkey relations, yet the Foreign Relations Committee seems intent on going forward. Turkey is trying to gain entry into the EU by showing it is modernizing, (somewhat) working on being stable politically, and can be seem as a good example of a Muslim/Islamic nation that is moderate (more or less). Didn't the Dem's boast about how they'd improve foreign relations better than Bush (or was that just Kerry)? Seems like they aren't going about it the right way.


Note: I didn't write this as a "bash the Dem's" thread. Just curious if other people thought this when they read it.

i first learned of the Armenian genocide from that guy from that one noun.

i've also heard of the denial of the Armenian genocide.

Turkey is not going to go binladin on anyone.
Indonesia is the most populous country whose citizens practice Islam,
and they ain't going binladin either.
The problem in Indonesia is that the military still has waaaay to much control.
This is a lay-over from the days of fascist dictator Suharto when the people and the 1998 asian economic meltdown made him leave power.
The military in Indonesia is what causes most of the problems there.
Whether it was illegally occupying East Timor for 24 years and razing it when
they left, or sending those in charge from there to do the same things in West Papua, or fomenting violence between Muslims & Christians in Malukus islands.
(not to mention Aceh. but the tsunami brought everyone down to reality and they just all made peace there. we hope...)
etc...secular place with military violence revolving around resources.

What is the purpose of this bill? It seems pretty pointless. And why choose now to pass it? It all seems a bit weird to me.

What is the purpose of this bill? It seems pretty pointless. And why choose now to pass it? It all seems a bit weird to me.

Exactly, why pass this? I would love to hear the real answer but we just won't get the truth.

Exactly, why pass this? I would love to hear the real answer but we just won't get the truth.

Here is the bill.

http://www.anca.org/action_alerts/action_docs.php?docsid=15

This will make the Turks happy...

Christ, why pass a domestically meaningless bill that will have a huge negative effect on our relations with a very close NATO ally?

What is the purpose of this bill? It seems pretty pointless. And why choose now to pass it? It all seems a bit weird to me.

Exactly, why pass this? I would love to hear the real answer but we just won't get the truth.

Shouldn't someone like historians decide something like this, not legislative body?

The Armenian Genocide was a genocide, and those who propgate its denial are akin to those who propogate the denial of the holocaust (Godwin... sigh). It is irrelevant that Turkey will throw a shitfit at being called out for its past actions. Its past actions were despicable and it deserves to be called out for them. I applaud the Dems.

My best friend, growing up, knew of family members who were killed in the Armenian genocide. To deny it is purest evil and irresponsibility. To deny it for diplomatic convenience is sickening.

Turkey will have to grow up, look at its history and admit its wrongs before they can really be admitted into the EU anyway. Until they do admit the Armenian genocide, then they are far from modernized and/or civilized. They need to understand that this kind of denial is politically unacceptable and they can throw as much of a hissy fit they want, but that doesn't make them right.

1. What business is it of Congress in the first place?

2. Shouldn't we deal with our own attempted genocide on Native Americans before we go pointing out the mote in other nations' eyes?

Shouldn't someone like historians decide something like this, not legislative body?

Historians have decided. They have decided it was a genocide.

Also, is it really a bill? I've heard it referred to as a resolution, which makes a little more sense, because (as people have said) it doesn't do anything except make the House's stance clear.

Shouldn't someone like historians decide something like this, not legislative body?

try telling that to Turkey. It's a crime there to mention the fact the Armenian genocide happened.

This will make the Turks happy...

Christ, why pass a domestically meaningless bill that will have a huge negative effect on our relations with a very close NATO ally?

Because the dems in power (not all dems, just those that hold positions of power) want to show that they are tough regardless of what countries get hurt in the process.

Shouldn't someone like historians decide something like this, not legislative body?

As a historian, this is pretty meaningless coming from the United States Congress.

Because the dems in power (not all dems, just those that hold positions of power) want to show that they are tough regardless of what countries get hurt in the process.

A lot more damaging than invading a one-time ally and Balkanizing it into a sectarian civil war eh Corny?

Israel just doesn't want people caring about the Armenians more than them.

Its obvious that Turkey is trying to smooth over its past, which is saddening, and I'm not saying that they should never admit to it. They should. I just think its a little stupid of the Dem's to push it through at this time, when it doesn't seem like there is a purpose. Besides, with all the other domestic issues out there that need to be covered (immigration, healthcare, social security) why are they arguing about this?!?


Like I asked in the OP though, does anyone get the sense that this has to do with cutting off the Iraq war?

Like I asked in the OP though, does anyone get the sense that this has to do with cutting off the Iraq war?

No. All I am seeing is a freaking feel good measure.

All I'm seeing is the correction of a grave error; that being the United States' failure to recognize what happened. Apparently, the dems are willing to stand up for the truth, even if it is, dare I say, inconvenient.

Because the dems in power (not all dems, just those that hold positions of power) want to show that they are tough regardless of what countries get hurt in the process.

Because telling a lie about a genocide is okay. Definitely. No one gets angry when Amedinijad lies about the holocaust. No sir.

If Turkey doesn't want to face up to their guilt, fuck them. We don't need to ally ourselves to unappologetic mass murderers anyway.

Because telling a lie about a genocide is okay. Definitely. No one gets angry when Amedinijad lies about the holocaust. No sir.

If Turkey doesn't want to face up to their guilt, fuck them. We don't need to ally ourselves to unappologetic mass murderers anyway.

Umm...yeah, we kinda do. They're the only nonautocratic majority muslim nation that has been friendly to us. It's need their support. Throwing it away like this is a seriously terrible idea.

Turkey recalls ambassador to US (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7040366.stm)

:eek: Sounds like Turkey is very pissed off indeed.

Turkey recalls ambassador to US (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7040366.stm)

:eek: Sounds like Turkey is very pissed off indeed.

Figures. That did not take long.

As a historian...

hahaha, man, that never gets old

What is the purpose of this bill? It seems pretty pointless. And why choose now to pass it? It all seems a bit weird to me.

It is not a bill, it is a resolution.

Claiming that it's not genocide is like claiming that humans are not descended from apes. Sure, there are a few nuts who insist on it, but the rest of us have more sense than them.

hahaha, man, that never gets old

:rolleyes:

Claiming that it's not genocide is like claiming that humans are not descended from apes. Sure, there are a few nuts who insist on it, but the rest of us have more sense than them.

What the turks did to the Armenians is indeed genocide. However, the American Congress should not be passing this resolution but Turkey needs to apologize to the Armenians. That will never happen however and that is sad :(

hahaha, man, that never gets old

I have to quote for truth.

:rolleyes:

what, you don't find anything amusing about any sort of appeal to your authority?

what, you don't find anything amusing about any sort of appeal to your authority?

As I do have the degree on my wall and now I am going to go back to grad school for my masters in said subject, I can legally say "as a historian" for I am a historian.

hahaha, man, that never gets old

its the 'gift that keeps on giving'

Is it just me, or is this another way the Dem's are trying to stop the Iraq war?

<SNIP>

Note: I didn't write this as a "bash the Dem's" thread. Just curious if other people thought this when they read it.

The first sentance makes me doubt the last two. More on topic it shames me that what's conveniant for the country is more important to some people than what's right.

I don't see the point of this - we have committed a "genocide" in our youth. Massive native American massacres, eh?
..

What the turks did to the Armenians is indeed genocide.yes.
.
Turkey needs to apologize to the Armenians.yes.
.
That will never happen.Why not?

The Germans have apologized for the other holocaust..
Have they not?

LINK: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21221278/


Is it just me, or is this another way the Dem's are trying to stop the Iraq war? Honestly, that's the first thing I thought while reading through this article.

What also strikes me is that it is incredibly obvious that this will hurt US-Turkey relations, yet the Foreign Relations Committee seems intent on going forward. Turkey is trying to gain entry into the EU by showing it is modernizing, (somewhat) working on being stable politically, and can be seem as a good example of a Muslim/Islamic nation that is moderate (more or less). Didn't the Dem's boast about how they'd improve foreign relations better than Bush (or was that just Kerry)? Seems like they aren't going about it the right way.


Note: I didn't write this as a "bash the Dem's" thread. Just curious if other people thought this when they read it.

This is how they are solving things. Rather than actually answer the current issues that are important, such as our continuing debt, the illegal immigration problem, etc. they want to whine about something that happened almost a hundred years ago. Come on you should realize that the motto is "Why Solve Today's Issues When We Can Whine About Yesterday."

This is how they are solving things. Rather than actually answer the current issues that are important, such as our continuing debt, the illegal immigration problem, etc. they want to whine about something that happened almost a hundred years ago. Come on you should realize that the motto is "Why Solve Today's Issues When We Can Whine About Yesterday."


Sad that this is the state of American politics. Better to score political points rather than actually do something productive.

the problem I have with this is what the hell does it matter NOW, a hundred years later what it was called.

I am proud of my country and joined the USN because of that, BUT if England, Russia, China or another country called what the USA and the original colonists did to the Native Americans or what Australia did to the aboriginies(sp) that it was genocide, how would WE feel???

Personally I would say ok, your right. IT was borderline genocide along with colonization. But what the f is that going to change?

By passing the resolution the it is not going to bring anyone back who was killed then. It is not going to give any survivors or their family money. It is not going to help in prosecution of anyone. WHat it will do is piss alot of people off who are the Wests strongest ally in the middle east AND a member of NATO. WTF is the democratic congress thinking? Are they really that selfish for political gain and that ignorant of foreign relations?

God help us all if one of them take office.

yes.
.
yes.
.
Why not?

The Germans have apologized for the other holocaust..
Have they not?

Because Turkey is very serious about not allowing people to mock "Turkishness" and they've made it illegal to talk about the Armenian genocide.

Because Turkey is very serious about not allowing people to mock "Turkishness" and they've made it illegal to talk about the Armenian genocide. countries that repress freedom of speech.. they are pathetic.

countries that repress freedom of speech.. they are pathetic.

You can say what you want anywhere, it's just that you don't always know what happens to you afterwards, even in the U.S.

If you want to be idealistic, the purpose of the resolution was to emphasize that no decent nation ought to be covering up any instance of genocide no matter how inconvenient it may be.

If you want to be cynical, the purpose of the resolution was to piss off Turkey to the point of cutting off its support to the United States, thus undermining Beloved Dear Leader's "War on Terruh" and thus forcing the recall of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan sooner.

Sad that this is the state of American politics. Better to score political points rather than actually do something productive.

Yes that hits the nail right on the head.

As I do have the degree on my wall and now I am going to go back to grad school for my masters in said subject, I can legally say "as a historian" for I am a historian.

That doesn't make you a historian, I could call myself a historian with that reasoning (except I don't keep my degree on my wall).

At best you can say you are a historian-in-training.


On a more pleasant note, what is (or will be) your speciality?

As a historian, this is pretty meaningless coming from the United States Congress.
As a different 'historian' (erm not that being a historian is of any real importance, and being soemone with common sense is about enough), I'd have to agree.

It doesn't really affect the US one iota other than as a way to piss off Turkey, which is a pretty foolhardy move, seeing as they've put up with those bastard Kurds that the US is always trying to protect for some reason, and have held off from basically going into Northern Iraq with tanks and finishing off what Saddam Hussein began in 1991.

Because the dems in power (not all dems, just those that hold positions of power) want to show that they are tough regardless of what countries get hurt in the process.
in other words, Corny's ideals are as follows:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_10122007_520.gif
glad we could clear that up.

As a different 'historian' (erm not that being a historian is of any real importance, and being soemone with common sense is about enough), I'd have to agree.

It doesn't really affect the US one iota other than as a way to piss off Turkey, which is a pretty foolhardy move, seeing as they've put up with those bastard Kurds that the US is always trying to protect for some reason, and have held off from basically going into Northern Iraq with tanks and finishing off what Saddam Hussein began in 1991.

I'm glad we agree on something :)

those bastard Kurds that the US is always trying to protect for some reason, .

...except for that time they handed them to Saddam on a plate in the 70's, and the way they didn't seem too pushed about them during the 'Anfal' thing either.....