NationStates Jolt Archive

Violence at Swiss pre-poll rally
Violence flared in the Swiss capital of Bern as left-wing protesters tried to stop a pre-election campaign event by the nationalist Swiss People's Party.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44161000/jpg/_44161198_protest_ap_203b.jpg

Violence flared in the Swiss capital of Bern as left-wing protesters tried to stop a pre-election campaign event by the nationalist Swiss People’s Party.

Police fired tear gas as demonstrators hurled rocks and bottles in front of parliament to interrupt a march and rally by about 5,000 SVP [Swiss People’s Party] supporters.

The SVP has been criticised recently for its hard-line views on immigration.

Its campaign posters—showing white sheep kicking a black sheep off a Swiss flag—have stirred controversy.

The party, which has campaigned against minarets in Swiss cities, condemned the violence as contrary to the country’s democratic tradition.

The disorder comes two weeks before the country’s 21 October parliamentary elections.

Recent polls have forecast the SVP to emerge as the largest vote-winner.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7032021.stm

And.... here is a nice youtube clip showing the rioting in the capital:
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=px97KY_j7FI

It's pretty crazy, as anyone who has ever been to Bern will recognize where exactly this is. I myself have stood exactly here and heard the stories told to us about that underneath this plaza area is where all the Swiss gold is....said...to be.
Switzerland reeling as radicals create havoc at rightwing political rally
Rioters hurl petrol bombs and torch cars in capital
Fear that riot will increase support for the far right

The Swiss capital of Berne was turned into a battle zone at the weekend when leftwing radicals seized control of the main square outside parliament, routing the main far-right political party two weeks before a general election and catching the Swiss police off guard.Dozens of protesters were arrested and around two dozen people injured, mostly police officers, as police deployed tear gas, water cannon, and rubber bullets to try to regain control from gangs of highly organised, masked people who turned the small and normally sleepy capital of Switzerland into a scene of devastation.

The clashes on Saturday and the revulsion triggered among mainstream Swiss by the unusual street violence are likely to play into the hands of Christoph Blocher, the tough-talking populist and millionaire industrialist who leads the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the far-right movement tipped to win the elections later this month following a campaign denounced as overtly racist by a United Nations watchdog.Mr Blocher called a campaign rally of his party in the capital and some 10,000 of his supporters converged on Berne to march to the capital's main square in front of parliament.

But the planned rally was hijacked by up to 1,000 masked street fighters who blocked the SVP's progress, outwitted the police by operating in small groups moving in and out of the crowds, and ransacked the SVP stage and campaign equipment.

The Federal Square, site of a charming Saturday morning flower and vegetable market, resembled a war zone by Saturday night, littered with debris, masonry, shattered glass and torched metal.

The city mayor admitted "impotence" in the face of the riots. The trouble raised questions about the readiness of the Swiss authorities to cope with potential hooliganism at next summer's Euro 2008 football championship being hosted jointly by Austria and Switzerland.

Mr Blocher's SVP is expected to emerge as the strongest party with more than a quarter of the vote in the elections in two weeks due to a blunt anti-immigrant campaign, broadsides against the European Union, and a robust affirmation of traditional Swiss isolationism. The party's main election poster bears the slogan: My Home, Our Switzerland, Keep It Secure. It shows three white sheep kicking a black sheep off the red-and-white Swiss flag. The UN's xenophobia watchdog, based in Switzerland, described the explicit anti-immigrant message as openly racist.
The foreign minister and current Swiss president, Micheline Calmy-Rey, a social democrat, has complained that the SVP campaign is giving Switzerland a bad name and partially blamed it for the weekend violence. "One should not play with fear just to win a few votes," she said. "The current provocations and attacks in politics leave their mark."

But the confrontation in a country not used to political violence could boost Mr Blocher's support and entrench his pugnacious nationalist conservatism as the leading force in Switzerland. The SVP is collecting signatures demanding a referendum on the deportation of "criminal foreigners."

"Foreigners are shamelessly abusing Swiss hospitality. This has to be stopped," the SVP manifesto argues. The success of the SVP campaign is being studied by neo-Nazi groups in Germany.

Markus Meier, a reader, commenting in the newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung, wrote: "How can pseudo-political activists organise a riot-party in a Swiss town, cause thousands of francs worth of damage and leave the taxpayer to pick up the bill."

Mr Blocher criticised the police for being unable to ensure safety for an authorised political meeting after his rally was forced to retreat. "It's obvious that the biggest party in Switzerland can no longer go to the federal square," Mr Blocher told his supporters to huge applause.

Police officers admitted they had been outwitted by the guerrilla tactics of the rioters who set fires, lifted paving stones, torched vehicles, hurled stones and petrol bombs, and laid waste to the jewellers' stores and posh watch dealers of the capital. The Berne police chief, Stephan Huegli, described the events as a black day for Swiss democracy and freedom of speech.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2185760,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

A few points:

1. If there is one thing that could have helped the SVP more than anything, it was violent crime by the youth against the political process of the SVP. How dumb could those Leftists have been?

2. What doesn't kill the SVP will only make it stronger.

3. The SVP is expected to win and many Swiss LIKE it's stances on immigration, multiculturalism, crime and isolation.

31/2. Sicherheit schaffen! Himmel oder Hölle! Sagen Sie Nein zum beitritt der EU! Wählen Sie SVP!

Well, this is not really news. We know that there are also lots of leftist retards as well as rightist retards. 20th century history is the proof of that.

As for Swiss, it is their country. If they dont want immigrants in their country and are dealing with that in a peaceful and democratic manner, so be it.

PS: About the poll, what's your reference point? Right in Canada may still be left in US.

Well, this is not really news. We know that there are also lots of leftist retards as well as rightist retards. 20th century history is the proof of that.

As for Swiss, it is their country. If they dont want immigrants in their country and are dealing with that in a peaceful and democratic manner, so be it.

PS: About the poll, what's your reference point? Right in Canada may still be left in US.

I hear that...our conservatives are like the US' Democrats...

Those with Incorrect Thought should notbe able to participate in the Democratic Process. I am glad to see the Swiss with Correct Thought are ensuring that.

EDIT: Timewarp is Incorrect Thought.

Well, this is not really news. We know that there are also lots of leftist retards as well as rightist retards. 20th century history is the proof of that.
No. This IS news. These are Leftists trying to block the Democractic process of the largest party in Switzerland in the Swiss capital 2 weeks before the election!
As for Swiss, it is their country. If they dont want immigrants in their country and are dealing with that in a peaceful and democratic manner, so be it.
Agreed.
PS: About the poll, what's your reference point? Right in Canada may still be left in US.
It doesn't matter. Right means you favor atleast some degree (or some aspects) of social conservatism and economic capitalism over social liberalism and economic regulation. In some countries, it's meaning is more extreme than others.

No. This IS news. These are Leftists trying to block the Democractic process of the largest party in Switzerland in the Swiss capital 2 weeks before the election!


Yeah but it is not news in the sense that they are retards just like those anti-globalisation/anrachist protestors who burn stuff or Soviet communists.


Agreed.

It doesn't matter. Right means you favor atleast some degree (or some aspects) of social conservatism and economic capitalism over social liberalism and economic regulation. In some countries, it's meaning is more extreme than others.

What is social conservatism? In US, it seems to mostly focus on preventing equal rights to homosexual citizens. In Canada, many homosexuals vote for Tories. Also most, maybe all leftists are social conservatives, to a degree as well, if we apply the term literally. Eg: paedophilia is socially unacceptable and few people would want to change that, hence preserving that aspect of social norms.

Those with Incorrect Thought should notbe able to participate in the Democratic Process. I am glad to see the Swiss with Correct Thought are ensuring that.

EDIT: Timewarp is Incorrect Thought.
Yes, please stop trolling my thread.

Democracy is all about the right of the minority to be heardt, but its also about the majority having control.

Who the fuck cares about Switzerland anyway?

Who the fuck cares about Switzerland anyway?
Heh...funny.:rolleyes:

Democracy is all about the right of the minority to be heardt, but its also about the majority having control.


Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me, too. If they don't want immigrants (or whatever it is), I don't see the point in stirring up a frenzy in some attempt to force them to take them. If their constitution, or whatever they have, disagrees, then let a judge force their government to accept more immigrants. But that's their issue.


Who the fuck cares about Switzerland anyway?

Good question! :p

Isn't Bern a major transshipment point for heroin? That's about all I remember about Switzerland, besides their speaking some funky German in some areas.

bump

Who the fuck cares about Switzerland anyway?

Swiss cheese? :p

Who the fuck cares about Switzerland anyway?
Quite.

Nice also to note that the OP highlighted the bits about the actions of the leftists, but completely ignored the bits even in some cases in the same lines, about how the SVP wants there to be no Minarets in Switzerland, and that they have 'hardline' (a.k.a somewhat racist) policies on immigration.

Do I care if a bunch of neo-fascists get rocks thrown at them? No. Not at all.

The SVP is a disgrace in every sense, and it's only due to the fact that nobody cares about Switzerland that they haven't been widely condemned like Front National of France.

But there you go.

snip

Why is one riot amount to SWISS INTOLERANCE OF DEMOCRACY?

I mean if there's a politically oriented riot in the US, I don't hear you say, AMERICAN INTOLERANCE OF DEMOCRACY!


A few points:

1. If there is one thing that could have helped the SVP more than anything, it was violent crime by the youth against the political process of the SVP. How dumb could those Leftists have been?

Yes, the SVP, and other nationalist bilge-groups, have always seemed to love the "we're attacked by the dissident evil communist jew liberal multiculturalist muslim immigrant socialist leftist insurgent terrorists" angle. From that standpoint it's best to just ignore them, unless they're growing too much anyway in which case the best solution is, historically, fire-bombing.

For that matter, it's best to ignore people like you too, because you feed similarly on your delusional persecution complex.


2. What doesn't kill the SVP will only make it stronger.

Next time they should aim to kill.

3. The SVP is expected to win and many Swiss LIKE it's stances on immigration, multiculturalism, crime and isolation.

Yes, and I can think of another party which another European nation really liked. It was anti-immigration, monoculturalist, tough-on-crime. An amount of popularity is definitely a justification for that party too, yes?

31/2. Sicherheit schaffen! Himmel oder Hölle! Sagen Sie Nein zum beitritt der EU! Wählen Sie SVP!

Sieg Heil, ja?

Quite.

Nice also to note that the OP highlighted the bits about the actions of the leftists, but completely ignored the bits even in some cases in the same lines, about how the SVP wants there to be no Minarets in Switzerland, and that they have 'hardline' (a.k.a somewhat racist) policies on immigration.

Do I care if a bunch of neo-fascists get rocks thrown at them? No. Not at all.

The SVP is a disgrace in every sense, and it's only due to the fact that nobody cares about Switzerland that they haven't been widely condemned like Front National of France.

But there you go.

Well, it's no secret that the OP has a frothing hatred of anyone and anything he considered "leftist." That and the fact that he has openly cheerlead and defended Augusto Pinochet's dictatorship in Chile- especially when it was imprisoning, torturing, raping and killing "leftists" in the name of capitalism does make his rants here about "leftists" having no respect for democracy a very disingenous pisstake. Just like George W. Bush opposing the execution of a criminal in Texas.

Quite.

Nice also to note that the OP highlighted the bits about the actions of the leftists, but completely ignored the bits even in some cases in the same lines, about how the SVP wants there to be no Minarets in Switzerland, and that they have 'hardline' (a.k.a somewhat racist) policies on immigration.

Do I care if a bunch of neo-fascists get rocks thrown at them? No. Not at all.

The SVP is a disgrace in every sense, and it's only due to the fact that nobody cares about Switzerland that they haven't been widely condemned like Front National of France.

But there you go.
Well, no I was highlighting the bits that are important to the situation and the election. Their immigration/Muslim stances are no secret....I don't know why you think I'd be hiding that.:confused:

Also, they arn't fascists.

It's hardly a disgrace since they are the most people party in Switzerland and are expected to grow this election. I myself have already convinced two of my Swiss friends to vote for the SVP. Nobody cares about Switzerland? Is that so? Yet the U.N. has taken time out of it's oh so busy schedule to tell the world that Switzerland is racist?

Why is one riot amount to SWISS INTOLERANCE OF DEMOCRACY?
Because this was in the capital square and was preventing the SVP of a political rally in the capital square. Obviously if that's not a big deal to you, you should try-reading that with your eye open this time.


Next time they should aim to kill.


Yes, and I can think of another party which another European nation really liked. It was anti-immigration, monoculturalist, tough-on-crime. An amount of popularity is definitely a justification for that party too, yes?
Oh fun...let's making nazi comparisons! Yay! In fact..let's throw out anyone's ideas if they happen to be nationalistic! Becuase their opinions obviously are wrong!:rolleyes:

Sieg Heil, ja?
Bin ich automatisch ein nazi wenn ich sage daß sie SVP wählen sollen?

31/2. Sicherheit schaffen! Himmel oder Hölle! Sagen Sie Nein zum beitritt der EU! Wählen Sie SVP!
Wer bei Schwarzen kauft ist ein Volksverräter! usw. usw.

Well, no I was highlighting the bits that are important to the situation and the election. Their immigration/Muslim stances are no secret....I don't know why you think I'd be hiding that.:confused:
That bit is as important to the situation and the election, as it gives a cause...
Also, they arn't fascists.
Oh, terribly sorry, they're a bunch of waste-of-space nationalists, with strong authoritarian leanings.
It's hardly a disgrace since they are the most people party in Switzerland and are expected to grow this election.
60% of French 18 year olds smoke. Does that make it sensible? Not really.

Just because something's popular doesn't make it any better.
I myself have already convinced two of my Swiss friends to vote for the SVP.
*sighs*
Nobody cares about Switzerland? Is that so?
Pretty much, yeah.
Yet the U.N. has taken time out of it's oh so busy schedule to tell the world that Switzerland is racist?
The UN does some fabulously pointless things. This is just one of them.

Bin ich automatisch ein Nazi, wenn ich sage, dass sie SVP wählen sollen?
Nein, aber mit deine Stellung an viele Themen, die 'ne Bisschen... ,,nationalistisch'' sind, es ist doch nicht schwierig, um diese Zusammenfassung zu kommen. (yes, that was probably crap and make no sense, sorry :(, however you have to note that that which I quoted wasn't perfect before I korrigiert it and all that)

Nein, aber mit deine Stellung an viele Themen, die 'ne Bisschen... ,,nationalistisch'' sind, es ist doch nicht schwierig, um diese Zusammenfassung zu kommen. (yes, that was probably crap and make no sense, sorry :(, however you have to note that that which I quoted wasn't perfect before I korrigiert it and all that)
I'm like that because these issues are important and I don't care how that makes me look to people who don't agree with it. What matters to me is bringing this to open debate which gets people to realize what's going on....something that is happening in Switzerland since this is the most popular party and gainging.

Oh, and what I said wasn't incorrect. I just left out the commas cuz I was lazy, true...but I learned to type "daß" with a "ß"

I'll be going out to the gym and then swimming, then I'll be back to this thread.

Considering Switzerland is a place where a form of direct democracy (since 1848) operates this title made me laugh

Hehe, well, Switzerland has a Bill of Rights, the only reason for its existence being the possibility of parties like the SVP appearing. Its planned policies violate that Bill in multiple places (Art 2(2), Art 7, Art 8(2), Art 9, Art 10(2), Art 12, Art 15(2 and 3), Art 18, Art 25(2 and 3), Art 35(2 and 3), Art 37(2)). Any properly critical court would easily agree with any number of these examples.

Sadly, police, courts or some other form of protection for the Bill of Rights doesn't seem to care. What else are thinking citizens supposed to do? Just sit there and watch their state be trampled into the dust?

Democracy is antithetical to individual freedom - naturally some people will feel oppressed by the majority.

As it happens, I'm a fan of the SVP, so I applaud the Swiss for supporting them. Similarly, I applaud their Swiss opponents for complaining about the democractic process that disenfranchised them.

Maybe I should move to Switzerland.

Yes, and I can think of another party which another European nation really liked. It was anti-immigration, monoculturalist, tough-on-crime. An amount of popularity is definitely a justification for that party too, yes?
You mean the one led by Jorg Haider which, when democractically elected by the people of Austria, was basically forced out of he office by the condemnation from the EU.

If you support democracy, then you have to support democracy. The people get to make decisions as a unit, and sometimes the people will make decisions you don't like.

Considering Switzerland is a place where a form of direct democracy (since 1848) operates this title made me laugh
You know what made me laugh? You trying to explain to me how rioting in the capital and preventing the freedom to hold sancionted political rallies has fuck to do with the concept of Direct-Democracy.;)
Hehe, well, Switzerland has a Bill of Rights, the only reason for its existence being the possibility of parties like the SVP appearing. Its planned policies violate that Bill in multiple places (Art 2(2), Art 7, Art 8(2), Art 9, Art 10(2), Art 12, Art 15(2 and 3), Art 18, Art 25(2 and 3), Art 35(2 and 3), Art 37(2)). Any properly critical court would easily agree with any number of these examples.
What does all this malarky have to do with preventing the SVP from existing?
What else are thinking citizens supposed to do? Just sit there and watch their state be trampled into the dust?
LOL...thanks for the laugh. Thinking citizens? You mean left wing thugs??? This was a sanctioned political rally by the biggest political party in Switzerland. Even Bern's police are admitting their failure in preventing what happend.

What does all this malarky have to do with preventing the SVP from existing?
It simply means that the goals of the SVP are anti-thetical to the Swiss Bill of Rights. You can make of that what you will.

LOL...thanks for the laugh. Thinking citizens? You mean left wing thugs???
No, I mean thinking citizens. I don't care what wing they're on or what name you choose to give them.

Fact is that, as I outlined, the SVP/the SVP's voting base is in fact hostile to the Bill of Rights agreed upon by the Swiss people in the expectation of it lasting a while as a valid, inviolable piece of law. Neither the police, nor the courts nor the rest of the state seem willing to offend people by stating as much and drawing the conclusions.

Where does that leave people who care about the Bill of Rights? Outvoted? In the minority and therefore irrelevant?

I'm not talking about their methods, as you know. I'm talking about their cause and the fundamental problem of an angry mob not being right by virtue of being numerous, no matter whether you call it a political party or a black bloc.

That bit is as important to the situation and the election, as it gives a cause...
I don't disagree, I just figured everyone knew that stuff already. My mistake.

Oh, terribly sorry, they're a bunch of waste-of-space nationalists, with strong authoritarian leanings.
Yes, what a waste of space, trying to keep Switzerland a unique paradise.

Just because something's popular doesn't make it any better.
No, see...in a Direct-Democracy, if something is popular with the people it matters alot. Who cares what outsiders think...this election effects Switzerland only...so why should they care if they are looked upon as racist by the U.N.
*sighs*
What? I just convinced them to showing them why they should. Besides, their families are already voting SVP, it's just instead of their family showing them why, their friend (me) is also showing them why on a peer-to-peer level.
The UN does some fabulously pointless things. This is just one of them.
Agreed, but that doesn't mean that Switzerland is not one of the most important countries in the world. It is a HUGE center for international business and multinational corporations. Do you even know how much money is generated there and flows through this little apline country?

Also, your poll sucks. What am I supposed to vote?

I agree with their cause, though not necessarily with their methods.

I am on the "right" economically, but on the "left" socially. Or not, depending on who I'm talking to.

It simply means that the goals of the SVP are anti-thetical to the Swiss Bill of Rights. You can make of that what you will.
Well, it's your argument...tell us what these clauses are and why it [should] void the SVP's charter and goals.

Also, your poll sucks. What am I supposed to vote?

I agree with their cause, though not necessarily with their methods.

I am on the "right" economically, but on the "left" socially. Or not, depending on who I'm talking to.
Then don't vote. i said "if you had to" which means if pushed...which way do you lean...towards voting for the conservative ideas or the Left ideas.

Anyway, not that important....BTW, go on MSN I have a question for you that is totally off topic.

You know what made me laugh? You trying to explain to me how rioting in the capital and preventing the freedom to hold sancionted political rallies has fuck to do with the concept of Direct-Democracy.;)


Your title - Swiss Intolerance of Democracy

Actual story - group trying to gain support for their cause in a rather idiotic manner

and in that title your labelling all Swiss as intollerent of democracy, when as stated they probably have a more "democratic" system than most countries. I think this is sensationalism at best and an attempt to ridicule the left for a few mindless idiots at worst.

Is it wrong of me to hope that every swiss man and woman comes down with a potentially fatal disease that only fucking a muslim can cure? :p

Actual story - group trying to gain support for their cause in a rather idiotic manner.
Wrong again. This was the prevention of the democratic process by blocking a sancionted political party's access to the capital.

These people were Swiss and were/are intolerant of Democracy.

Is it wrong of me to hope that every swiss man and woman comes down with a potentially fatal disease that only fucking a muslim can cure? :p
Not as long as it isn't wrong of me to hope that Swiss authorities never grant you entrance to the beautiful country, and if you have been there before, never let you go back. :)

All that in the capitol of Sweden? Wow....

just jokin' 'ere...

You know what made me laugh? You trying to explain to me how rioting in the capital and preventing the freedom to hold sancionted political rallies has fuck to do with the concept of Direct-Democracy.;)

What does all this malarky have to do with preventing the SVP from existing?

LOL...thanks for the laugh. Thinking citizens? You mean left wing thugs??? This was a sanctioned political rally by the biggest political party in Switzerland. Even Bern's police are admitting their failure in preventing what happend.

I stopped reading the thread right here. If Neu L's reference to the Bill of Rights is "malarky" then there isn't anything stopping me calling your posts pig-headed rubbish. All of them, including the OP. Have a nice day.

Is it wrong of me to hope that every swiss man and woman comes down with a potentially fatal disease that only fucking a muslim can cure? :p

Yes, because you're not funny at all this time. Hint: Not all Swiss like the SVP (think riotists), why should everybody be given a disease?


Also, muslims are screwed enough as it is ;)

I stopped reading the thread right here. If Neu L's reference to the Bill of Rights is "malarky" then there isn't anything stopping me calling your posts pig-headed rubbish. All of them, including the OP. Have a nice day.
1. You didn't reply to my reply of your post.

2. Neu Leonstein didn't explain those things at all, neither what they are nor how they should be preventing the SVP from existing.

Well, it's your argument...tell us what these clauses are and why it [should] void the SVP's charter and goals.
http://www.ddleague-usa.net/sbor.htm
Art 2
2. It shall promote the common welfare, the sustainable development, the inner cohesion, and the cultural diversity of the country.
That one's pretty obvious.

Art 7
Human dignity shall be respected and protected.
I don't expect you've ever been witness to the deportation process, rest assured it doesn't exactly leave the victim swimming in dignity. Add the way the SVP portrays immigrants in its campaign, and it's a pretty fat "fail" on Article 7.

Art 8
2. Nobody shall suffer discrimination, particularly on grounds of origin, race, sex, age, language, social position, lifestyle, religious, philosophical or political convictions, or because of a corporal or mental disability.
Note how it doesn't say "no citizen". It's a commitment to human rights in general.

Art 9
Every person has the right to be treated by the state organs without arbitrariness and in good faith.
That one's obvious too. In fact, by the logic of the xenophobe (and your own admission) they are opposed to immigration from Ghana or Syria but not as much from Germany or Austria. If that isn't arbitrariness, I don't know what is.

Art 10
2. Every person has the right to personal liberty, particularly to corporal and mental integrity, and to freedom of movement.
Ooh, I like that last point, don't you? Again, no mention of "Swiss citizens only".

Art 12
Persons in distress and incapable of looking after themselves have the right to be helped and assisted, and to receive the means that are indispensable for leading a life in human dignity.
Who does this apply to more than asylum seekers and refugees?

Art 15
2. All persons have the right to choose their religion or philosophical convictions freely, and to profess them alone or in community with others.
3. All persons have the right to join or to belong to a religious community, and to follow religious teachings.
Wait a minute, the Swiss Bill of Rights encourages "parallel communities"?

Art 18
The freedom of language is guaranteed.
German, French and Italian, yes? Arabic, no?

Art 25
2. Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted.
3. No person shall be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture, or another means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment.
Well, that's just too easy.

Art 35
2. Whoever exercises a function of the state must respect the fundamental rights and contribute to their realization.
3. The authorities shall ensure that the fundamental rights also be respected in relations among private parties whenever the analogy is applicable.
That's pretty obvious legalese. Beauty of that is that it extends into the immigration department as it is a function of the state.

37
2. No person shall enjoy a privilege or suffer prejudice because of his or her citizenship. Exceptions are possible to regulate political rights in bourgeoisies and corporations, and provide for participation in their assets, unless cantonal legislation excludes this.
What? No prejudice because you're not a Swiss citizen? Oh, my!

Anyway, not that important....BTW, go on MSN I have a question for you that is totally off topic.
We managed to go over our download limit, meaning we're now on ISDN speed...and my MSN is not updated. I'll get it sorted over the next few days, but we're moving house tomorrow, so I've got bigger and better things to worry about.

Like posting on NSG, apparently...;)

Switzerland has been an incredibly insular country since its inception, when it strove to drive out the Austrians, the HRE and the French, and in doing so shattering the backbone of the feudal European knighthood. That they're likely going to elect a government that will embrace insular policies isn't shocking in the slightest. Poorly advised, yes, but not surprising.

Violence flared in the Swiss capital of Bern as left-wing protesters tried to stop a pre-election campaign event by the nationalist Swiss People’s Party.

Battle of Cable Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street)

Pretty standard anti-nationalist/anti-fascist rally. Europe is Europe.

The SVP is performing God's work. To Hell with any dissenters. They deserve crucifiction for violating the Lord's supreme Will.

I guess He's just taking sub-contracting to a new low.
Why, is He subcontracting to liberal scum?

Because this was in the capital square and was preventing the SVP of a political rally in the capital square. Obviously if that's not a big deal to you, you should try-reading that with your eye open this time.

I like how you lay this nonsense on and act as if you've made an actual argument. So are you saying that if a political rally lead to a riot in Washington DC, you would then be blabbering about "AMERICAN INTOLERANCE OF DEMOCRACY?"

Come off it. We both know you wouldn't.


Oh fun...let's making nazi comparisons! Yay! In fact..let's throw out anyone's ideas if they happen to be nationalistic! Becuase their opinions obviously are wrong!:rolleyes:

Yes, I know nationalists hate being compared with nationalists. Poor little buggers.


Bin ich automatisch ein nazi wenn ich sage daß sie SVP wählen sollen?

Nein, du bist ein Nazi aus anderen Gründen.

The SVP is performing God's work.

I guess He's just taking sub-contracting to a new low.

http://www.ddleague-usa.net/sbor.htm
Art 2
2. It shall promote the common welfare, the sustainable development, the inner cohesion, and the cultural diversity of the country.
That one's pretty obvious.


I'll just answer to this due to time constraints to show you how this can be interpreted.

The article mentions cultural diversity but does not specify the magnitude of diversity. By preserving differences between French, German and Italian speaking Swiss, the government may still promote the cultural diversity of the country, despite recent proposals.

Others, similarly, may have different interpretations. If anyone is concerned, they should notify the courts, instead of being retarded street protestors.

Not as long as it isn't wrong of me to hope that Swiss authorities never grant you entrance to the beautiful country, and if you have been there before, never let you go back. :)

No need for concern. I can't imagine a more dull and uninteresting place to spend time. :p

TAI, what are you smoking? A protest by some Swiss people doesn't mean they or all Swiss people are intolerant of democracy. You should know this. In fact, I suspect you do know this, but you are ignoring it for the sake of sensationalism.

TAI, what are you smoking? A protest by some Swiss people doesn't mean they or all Swiss people are intolerant of democracy. You should know this. In fact, I suspect you do know this, but you are ignoring it for the sake of sensationalism.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. It's hard to take a bitchfest about Swiss democratic intolerance from NSG's biggest Augusto Pinochet Fanboy seriously.

Eh. It would've been better if they'd just gotten a large bullhorn and made lots of noise, disrupting the speech(es).

Why, is He subcontracting to liberal scum?

Why no. As you yourself said, He is subcontracting the SVP. But then you're just a troll and I don't expect you to acknowledge that the sky might be blue unless that will get a negative reaction.

The SVP is performing God's work. To Hell with any dissenters. They deserve crucifiction for violating the Lord's supreme Will.

They deserve to have fictionalized crosses?

Also, who exactly are you to make claims on what God's will is? Are you Him? No? Hubris sends you to Hell too.

American Intolerance of Democracy! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Washington,_D.C._riots)

Meh, this new constitution was only made in 1999 and doesn't really reflect that is now happening in Switzerland with the growing concern over mass multiculturalism and immigration. The Swiss' views have changed alot since 1999, as can be showed by the anual increases of votes per SVP...where now it is the biggest party, expected to win the election and grow even more. So....personally I don't agree that everything in this constitution works, but that's not important. What is important is that the majority of Swiss voters feel that their needs to be protected, decrease immigration and get a grip on the multiculturalism of the country are important enough to vote for the SVP. That triumphs everything.

http://www.ddleague-usa.net/sbor.htm
Art 2
2. It shall promote the common welfare, the sustainable development, the inner cohesion, and the cultural diversity of the country.
That one's pretty obvious.
This one is most important simply because it was really was the national governemnt was made to do in Switzerland. Promote the cultural diversity of the country, aka...the German, Romansch, Italian and French areas, make sure they got along, didn't kill each other and prospered together. It has nothing to do with Albanian gangsters or Russian criminals or such.
Art 7
Human dignity shall be respected and protected.
I don't expect you've ever been witness to the deportation process, rest assured it doesn't exactly leave the victim swimming in dignity. Add the way the SVP portrays immigrants in its campaign, and it's a pretty fat "fail" on Article 7.
Deportation happens to criminals, according to the Swiss authorities. They are still humans but the fact that they are criminals gives us alot less of a reason to care that they pampered.
Art 8
2. Nobody shall suffer discrimination, particularly on grounds of origin, race, sex, age, language, social position, lifestyle, religious, philosophical or political convictions, or because of a corporal or mental disability.
Note how it doesn't say "no citizen". It's a commitment to human rights in general.
Yes..but this is in part due to Switzerland's international AIDS program and it's helping of the people of the world. This does not translate into..."open the floodgates" let our soceity become a multiethnic blob and lose our culture. This translates to...we should go help people in their countries who need it, regardless of them being Europeans, Africans, Muslims, Women....ect

And, obviously...every normal country has this so you can't just say.."sorry, don't want women working for me".
Art 9
Every person has the right to be treated by the state organs without arbitrariness and in good faith.
That one's obvious too. In fact, by the logic of the xenophobe (and your own admission) they are opposed to immigration from Ghana or Syria but not as much from Germany or Austria. If that isn't arbitrariness, I don't know what is.
"State organs"? As we've already shown the willingness to accept or decline an immigrant is at the village level.....so what does that have to do with state organs? Anyway, immigrants from Germany or Austria already speak (some form: Hochdeutsch) the language, are of a similar culture and have similar ethics and social norms. They integrate much better. Plus, they are usually not the ones who become criminals.
Art 10
2. Every person has the right to personal liberty, particularly to corporal and mental integrity, and to freedom of movement.
Ooh, I like that last point, don't you? Again, no mention of "Swiss citizens only".
What the government says about freedom of movement hardly applies if the immigration system is at a local/village level, does it? It's out of their hand. It's not theirs to talk about. It's like the U.N. complaining about things...it can do so, but it's not it's to complain about, and it has no real authority on it's own.
Art 12
Persons in distress and incapable of looking after themselves have the right to be helped and assisted, and to receive the means that are indispensable for leading a life in human dignity.
Who does this apply to more than asylum seekers and refugees?
Obviously it applies to the international AIDS programs that the Swiss have to go out and help the world. Again, does not translate into open the floodgates and let 'em all in...it means...send out doctors and help them.

Art 15
2. All persons have the right to choose their religion or philosophical convictions freely, and to profess them alone or in community with others.
3. All persons have the right to join or to belong to a religious community, and to follow religious teachings.
Wait a minute, the Swiss Bill of Rights encourages "parallel communities"?
This has to do with Swiss citizens.....and it's freedom of religion, so what? It doesn't have anything to do with it if the people are not citizens or not admitted to the country in the first place.
Art 18
The freedom of language is guaranteed.
German, French and Italian, yes? Arabic, no?
No, by all means...learn Arabic. Learn Chinese, learn Russian....Someone (might have been Ben Franklin) said, "It is a blessing for a person to be multi-lingual and multicultural, but it is a curse for a state to be."
Art 25
2. Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted.
3. No person shall be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture, or another means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment.
Well, that's just too easy.
Turkey: Stable.
Albania: Stable.
Former Yugloslavia: Now, generally stable. (So they can go back now)
Russia: Stable.
Poland: Stable
ect ect ect
Art 35
2. Whoever exercises a function of the state must respect the fundamental rights and contribute to their realization.
3. The authorities shall ensure that the fundamental rights also be respected in relations among private parties whenever the analogy is applicable.
That's pretty obvious legalese. Beauty of that is that it extends into the immigration department as it is a function of the state.
Immigration is not an issue of the national government though, but at the local level....and anyway, again...this means "be nice" not "let them in". It's more of guidlines than rules, really.
37
2. No person shall enjoy a privilege or suffer prejudice because of his or her citizenship. Exceptions are possible to regulate political rights in bourgeoisies and corporations, and provide for participation in their assets, unless cantonal legislation excludes this.
What? No prejudice because you're not a Swiss citizen? Oh, my!
Unless you are a criminal, which many non-citizens seem to be, which is the whole point of the SVP campaign.

We managed to go over our download limit, meaning we're now on ISDN speed...and my MSN is not updated. I'll get it sorted over the next few days, but we're moving house tomorrow, so I've got bigger and better things to worry about.
Ah, excellent...moving to Switzerland?;)
Like posting on NSG, apparently...;)
Well, we must keep our priorities!

No need for concern. I can't imagine a more dull and uninteresting place to spend time. :p
Thankfully, your opinion is wrong.:)
Tourists are drawn to Switzerland's Alpine climate and landscapes, as well as its neutral status in world affairs. Tourism is the most important U.S. export to Switzerland, contributing about CHF 1.5 billion to the Swiss economy every year.

Thankfully, your opinion is wrong.:)
Tourists are drawn to Switzerland's Alpine climate and landscapes, as well as its neutral status in world affairs. Tourism is the most important U.S. export to Switzerland, contributing about CHF 1.5 billion to the Swiss economy every year.

They don't have mud there, and I acn't see there being an awful lot of tacos, what interest would LG have?

I like how you lay this nonsense on and act as if you've made an actual argument. So are you saying that if a political rally lead to a riot in Washington DC, you would then be blabbering about "AMERICAN INTOLERANCE OF DEMOCRACY?"
If one of our parties was rallying in D.C. and a riot started to prevent them, yeah I would. Doesn't mean all American are intolerant of democracy, just showing AN American intolerance of Democracy.
Come off it. We both know you wouldn't.
One of us doesn't know me.



Yes, I know nationalists hate being compared with nationalists. Poor little buggers.
So...Sweden equals Karl Marx and Adam Smith because it has capitalism and socialism? And Russia is a nazi state? and North Korea is a nazi state or a communist state? And Japan is a nazi state? How about France? Venezuela?.... and so on and so worth.

Or is that you have something against German speakers...so when you see nationalism in German, you automatically think Nazi even though you see the same nationalism in Japanese, Korean, English, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, French, Spanish...ect


Nein, du bist ein Nazi aus anderen Gründen.
Wirklich? Sag doch....

They don't have mud there, and I acn't see there being an awful lot of tacos, what interest would LG have?
I disagree. Go to a Swiss open air concert where people camp out in the mud for 3-4 days in tents and get drunk, high, listen to music and get muddier and dirtier than you ever have in your life.

Then come back and tell me they don't have mud there. ;)

Also, who needs tacos when you have Dürüm kebabs. And before you jump on me and say "but those are from the auslaender!"...yes, I concede to them the fact that their greatest contribution to Swiss soceity was in fact, bringing the Dürüm kebab to Switzerland. While amazingly delicious, isn't really that much of a contribution that shows how needed immigrants are.

American Intolerance of Democracy! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Washington,_D.C._riots)
Wow...Blacks rioting in America! No way! This is just Blacks being idiots and uncivilized...like they did in back where I used to live in L.A. after Rodney King.:rolleyes:

The SVP are losing momentum (http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9953374).

Yet for all the headlines, the SVP's rise seems to have all but halted. Opinion polls give it roughly the same vote as four years ago. Mr Blocher's transition from anti-establishment government critic into justice minister has done little for his ratings. Polls suggest that he is one of the least popular ministers. He often alludes in public to disagreements with his six cabinet colleagues, a practice that is frowned on by most consensus-minded Swiss.
I wonder why? Oh, I see (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/265230)...

But the SVP campaign has begun to have a ripple effect, shaking the image of Switzerland as a place of prosperity and stability. On Thursday, a coalition of business, union and church leaders in Basel criticized the SVP for what they called its extremism, saying, "Those who discriminate against foreigners hurt the economy and threaten jobs in Switzerland."

The SVP are losing momentum (http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9953374).

I wonder why? Oh, I see (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/265230)...
That's just some leftists thinking about what MIGHT possibly could maybe happen some time in the near soon of the future.

Here's what's really happening, from your own source:

"Polls indicate that the right-wing party is poised to win more seats than any other party in the election, as it did in national elections in 2003, when it garnered nearly 27 per cent of the vote."

For Nelly Schneider, a 49-year-old secretary, the party's approach is "a little bit crass," but appealing nevertheless. "These foreigners abuse the system," she said. "They don't speak any German. They go to prostitution and do drugs and drive fancy cars and work on the black market. They don't want to work.''

The SVP is doing just fine...and beating all the other parties just like it did last time. In fact, the only party, aside from the SVP that's doing well and increasing is the greens, which is good! You see, Switzerland has no wars and a strong healthy economy so the top issues are naturally immigration/crime and enviornment. Obviously the SVP pwns on the former but the green ideas are becoming more popular with the latter. Which is good. Switzerland is already a very clean soceity. If the SVP were to campaign with environmental ideas it would be perfect...however it's not that big of a deal because, like I said, environment is already an importantce by everyone in Switzerland.

That's just some leftists thinking about what MIGHT possibly could maybe happen some time in the near soon of the future.

Here's what's really happening, from your own source:

"Polls indicate that the right-wing party is poised to win more seats than any other party in the election, as it did in national elections in 2003, when it garnered nearly 27 per cent of the vote."

For Nelly Schneider, a 49-year-old secretary, the party's approach is "a little bit crass," but appealing nevertheless. "These foreigners abuse the system," she said. "They don't speak any German. They go to prostitution and do drugs and drive fancy cars and work on the black market. They don't want to work.''

If you were to read critically, as opposed to quickly skimming, you would see that I said the SVP was losing momentum. Its support is no longer increasing. And Nelly Schneider is only representative of one thing: herself.

The SVP is doing just fine...and beating all the other parties just like it did last time. In fact, the only party, aside from the SVP that's doing well and increasing is the greens, which is good! You see, ...blah blah blah....

Like I give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about the Swiss love of green countrysides. Try to stay on topic.

The topic is the SVP and whether or not it's a good idea for the Swiss. I already showed you that they seem to be as powerful now as they ever will be. Now I'm going to show you how this is affecting Swiss society:

ZURICH, Switzerland — At 1:30 a.m., Antonio da Costa heard a knock at the back entrance of the McDonald’s restaurant where he worked as a janitor after-hours.

He opened the door, he recalled in an interview. There stood two men, each gripping a chain saw. One yanked the cord on his saw, stepped toward da Costa and shouted above the roaring machine: “We don’t need Africans in our country. We’re here to kill you!”

The two masked assailants cornered da Costa and began raking him with the whirring chain-saw blades. They slashed one arm to the bone, nearly sliced off his left thumb and hacked his face, neck and chest, the 37-year-old Angolan said, his voice quavering as he recounted the May 1 attack.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/world/story/310328.html

Tell me, is attacking people with chainsaws part of the traditions that the Swiss should keep?

When I talk about how dull and uninteresting Switzerland is, I refer to direct democracy. Or as I like to call it: 'Tyranny of the Majority'. THe idea that the majority is often(or even frequently) right is rather upsetting. Not to mention how homogeneous the culture is. Dull. Dull. Dull. Where is the variety? Where are the Indians? Mexicans? Greeks? Chinese? Koreans? Franch-Canadians? Creole? Where are all the delightful foods and languages and customs and everything that makes everywhere you go different from everywhere else you go?

I'm sorry, but I'd tire of Switzerland in about four days. It would go something like this:

"Wow! Mountains! Mmm! Chocolate! Hah! Funny pants! ... ... uh.... *sigh* ...when does my plane leave again?"

Like I give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about the Swiss love of green countrysides. Try to stay on topic.

The topic is the SVP and whether or not it's a good idea for the Swiss. I already showed you that they seem to be as powerful now as they ever will be. Now I'm going to show you how this is affecting Swiss society:



http://www.kansascity.com/news/world/story/310328.html

Tell me, is attacking people with chainsaws part of the traditions that the Swiss should keep?
First of all, watch your mouth. I don't really care what you give a "flying fuck" about. This is my thread, my topic and I have been the one staying on it..hence all my posting in this thread. I also made comments about other aspects of Swiss politics and said what I wished the SVP would do. Don't like it, don't comment on it. Simple as that, though it seems that even simple is something you arn't privilaged with enough brain power to undertand.

Now, on to this. You ask me, is this (attack) part of Swiss tradition? No, of course not. Don't troll. If you are trying to claim that it's the SVP that's causing these things, then it's the Leftist parties that were responsbile for rioting in the capital of Switzerland.

See how stupid that sounds? So, like the Left wing politcal parties were not responsible for the riots, the Right wing political parties are not responsbile for this attack.

Also, I disagree. I think that the SVP will continue to grow, based on what I've been reading plus my sources from Switzerland and the people in Switzerland.

Also, your article is soooo biased it's not even funny. It's complaining about how bad the Right is, but then calls the rioting in the capital, which Bern's police admitted was a TERRIBLE outrage, "On Saturday, counter-demonstrators threw rocks and bottles at Swiss People’s Party protesters during a political rally in front of the national parliament building. Police fired tear gas to break up the melee."

First of all...it wasn't that way at all. "Swiss People's Party protersters" were, in fact, rioters and were not engaged in a "political rally" but were in fact rioting to prevent the Swiss People's Party from even coming there.:rolleyes:

Lame, this source sucks.

When I talk about how dull and uninteresting Switzerland is, I refer to direct democracy. Or as I like to call it: 'Tyranny of the Majority'. THe idea that the majority is often(or even frequently) right is rather upsetting. Not to mention how homogeneous the culture is. Dull. Dull. Dull. Where is the variety? Where are the Indians? Mexicans? Greeks? Chinese? Koreans? Franch-Canadians? Creole? Where are all the delightful foods and languages and customs and everything that makes everywhere you go different from everywhere else you go?
What the people want for their country is right, it's their country. Anyway, Switzerland has it's own cultural diversity. German, French, Italian, Romansch. It also has two international cities. So...you're wrong there.
I'm sorry, but I'd tire of Switzerland in about four days. It would go something like this:

"Wow! Mountains! Mmm! Chocolate! Hah! Funny pants! ... ... uh.... *sigh* ...when does my plane leave again?"
If you think that's all there is there, then I'm sorry but I can't take anything you say on Switzerland seriously, as your understand of anything about that country is totally lacking. You don't even know what is there.

Apparently, they are in Switzerland and contributing to the local community, but aren't allowed to be citizens.

:(

Not to mention how homogeneous the culture is. Dull. Dull. Dull. Where is the variety? Where are the Indians? Mexicans? Greeks? Chinese? Koreans? Franch-Canadians? Creole? Where are all the delightful foods and languages and customs and everything that makes everywhere you go different from everywhere else you go?

James Philippe, a 28-year-old Haitian who has lived in Switzerland for 14 years and works for Streetchurch, a Protestant storefront community organization, and as a hip-hop instructor, said he is regularly stopped by the police and required to show his papers and submit to body searches. He speaks German, French, Creole and English, but has yet to receive a Swiss passport.

"The police treat me like I'm somehow not human," he said in a working-class neighbourhood of Zurich. "Then I open my mouth and speak good Swiss German, and they're always shocked.

Apparently, they are in Switzerland and contributing to the local community, but aren't allowed to be citizens.

What the people want for their country is right, it's their country. Anyway, Switzerland has it's own cultural diversity. German, French, Italian, Romansch. It also has two international cities. So...you're wrong there.

If you think that's all there is there, then I'm sorry but I can't take anything you say on Switzerland seriously, as your understand of anything about that country is totally lacking. You don't even know what is there.

You could probably save yourself a lot of time and take nothing I say seriously. :)

What the people want for their country is right, it's their country.
So often this has proven to be false.
Anyway, Switzerland has it's own cultural diversity.
Yes, as in "you can be this type of white, middle class European, or THIS kind!"
German, French, Italian, Romansch.
...

Yes, exactly. With the exception of the Gypsies, I think it's veering to white, middle class European. Just because they speak a whole bunch of languages in Switzerland doesn't mean that it's got any kind of real cultural diversity.

See also Luxembourg. And myself. I can speak plenty of languages. But erm I'm still pretty white and European...
It also has two international cities. So...you're wrong there.
Yes... obviously...
If you think that's all there is there, then I'm sorry but I can't take anything you say on Switzerland seriously, as your understand of anything about that country is totally lacking. You don't even know what is there.
Hills, cheese, laundered money and cuckoo clocks?

Now, on to this. You ask me, is this (attack) part of Swiss tradition? No, of course not. Don't troll. If you are trying to claim that it's the SVP that's causing these things, then it's the Leftist parties that were responsbile for rioting in the capital of Switzerland.

The SVP is trying to consolidate a power base by pandering to the fears of a xenophobic Swiss population. By doing so, they are legitimising such fears and xenophobia, making such attacks more likely and more common.

See how stupid that sounds? So, like the Left wing politcal parties were not responsible for the riots, the Right wing political parties are not responsbile for this attack.

I never said they were responsible for the attack. I said they were affecting Swiss society in a negative manner.

Also, I disagree. I think that the SVP will continue to grow, based on what I've been reading plus my sources from Switzerland and the people in Switzerland.

That's nice, but your opinion doesn't mean jack shit. If you have sources, present them. If not, quit talking out of your ass.

Also, your article is soooo biased it's not even funny. It's complaining about how bad the Right is, but then calls the rioting in the capital, which Bern's police admitted was a TERRIBLE outrage, "On Saturday, counter-demonstrators threw rocks and bottles at Swiss People’s Party protesters during a political rally in front of the national parliament building. Police fired tear gas to break up the melee."

Grow up. You can whine about bias all you want. Until you show bias, you're talking out of your ass again. This is especially ironic coming from someone who habitually uses blogs as source material.

First of all...it wasn't that way at all. "Swiss People's Party protersters" were, in fact, rioters and were not engaged in a "political rally" but were in fact rioting to prevent the Swiss People's Party from even coming there.:rolleyes:

Lame, this source sucks.

That's right. Blame the source when it presents the story in a way that doesn't reflect your politics.

If one of our parties was rallying in D.C. and a riot started to prevent them, yeah I would. Doesn't mean all American are intolerant of democracy, just showing AN American intolerance of Democracy.

Yeah. Except you didn't.

One of us doesn't know me.

I think I know as much as I want to know.

So...Sweden equals Karl Marx

No. Someone needs to learn what comparison of policy means.

and Adam Smith

No. See above.

because it has capitalism and socialism?

No. See above.

And Russia is a nazi state?


No. See above.

and North Korea is a nazi state


No. See above.

or a communist state?

Well, yes it is.

And Japan is a nazi state?

No. WTF are you smoking?

How about France? Venezuela?.... and so on and so worth.

No. WTF are you smoking?

Or is that you have something against German speakers

That's funny.

...so when you see nationalism in German, you automatically think Nazi even though you see the same nationalism in Japanese, Korean, English, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, French, Spanish...ect

When I see a certain type of bigoted, ignorant and hateful nationalism displayed in any such nation I call it what it is.

Wow...Blacks rioting in America! No way! This is just Blacks being idiots and uncivilized...like they did in back where I used to live in L.A. after Rodney King.

See? There you go. You don't whine about the "American" anything when it's a riot in America. Because that would interfere with your blind pseudo-patriotism.

Nice that you got to blame it on "Blacks" though. Apparently if people riot in Switzerland, it's "Swiss" something or other (intolerance of democracy, I guess). If people riot in America, it's not "American" being idiots and civilized, it's "blacks."

You provide a lot of insight into your worldview. Like I said, more than I want to know. Keep your jackboots in the closet.

So often this has proven to be false.

Yes, as in "you can be this type of white, middle class European, or THIS kind!"

...

Yes, exactly. With the exception of the Gypsies, I think it's veering to white, middle class European. Just because they speak a whole bunch of languages in Switzerland doesn't mean that it's got any kind of real cultural diversity.

See also Luxembourg. And myself. I can speak plenty of languages. But erm I'm still pretty white and European...

Yes... obviously...

Hills, cheese, laundered money and cuckoo clocks?

This is what I don't understand, how is it that you can't accept that there is diversity within the "white and European" group. It seems to me to be very racist to assume that someone would be different just because they weren't (white and European) or that everyone is the same who is. Its just my observation, but why do so many leftists think this way when they claim to be anti-racism and not a racist.

Nationalist party? Sounds like a slippery slope in my opinion.

Nationalist party? Sounds like a slippery slope in my opinion.
I don't even know how many brain cells I'd have to kill before that began to look like an intelligent post.
You could probably save yourself a lot of time and take nothing I say seriously. :)
Will do, but...it's hard to not take seriously when you say that you wish every single Swiss person died from some kind of plague thing....another poster noted that also. It's one thing to make jokes about mud or pies, but it's another thing to say you wish to see the death of every single Swiss person.
Apparently, they are in Switzerland and contributing to the local community, but aren't allowed to be citizens.
Oh yeah...contributing. You've totally convinced me! How could most Swiss voters be so stupid as to discriminate wealthy Americans or educated middle class German and Austrian workers when they could be importing Islander hip-hop teachers!:rolleyes: Puh-lease. It's called selective immigration, you pick the immigrants who beneift your community/country.

This is what I don't understand, how is it that you can't accept that there is diversity within the "white and European" group. It seems to me to be very racist to assume that someone would be different just because they weren't (white and European) or that everyone is the same who is. Its just my observation, but why do so many leftists think this way when they claim to be anti-racism and not a racist.
Exactly. To say that there is no cultural diversity in Switzerland between Romansch, German, Italian and French is to totally close ones eyes to what cultural diversity even means...not to mention the fact that it shows that Yootopia has never even been to Switzerland. "White" is not a culture, nor an ethnic group. There are various ethnicities and cultures within the white race.

So often this has proven to be false.

Yes, as in "you can be this type of white, middle class European, or THIS kind!"

Yes, exactly. With the exception of the Gypsies, I think it's veering to white, middle class European. Just because they speak a whole bunch of languages in Switzerland doesn't mean that it's got any kind of real cultural diversity.

See also Luxembourg. And myself. I can speak plenty of languages. But erm I'm still pretty white and European...
This entire post fails because it's racist in it's saying that there exists no ethnic nor cultural diversity within the White race.:rolleyes: Not to mention the fact that I didn't even mention Gypsies, so I don't know where that came from. If you are talking about Romansch, it has nothing to do with Gypsies. It's a Romance language that is still pretty latin-based and is spoken by a small minority of Swiss out in the east of the country...in the most backwards regions where they just gave women the right to vote in the 90's. Regardless though, it's quite a cool language and sounds very pretty and interesting...and has nothing to do with Gypsies at all...???:confused:

A "White, Middle Class European" who is French is ethnically and culturally different from a "White, Middle Class" European who is German...and to say otherwise is racist. Therefore, Switzerland, without needing to import it, already boasts massive cultural diversity. The French, German, Italian, Romansch areas are totally different from each other. It's not just that they speak another language...it's that they are VERY different. They are different cultures. It's very obvious (if it wasn't before) from this post that you've never been to Switzerland.

They're don't look as bad as those antifascist action loonies in Sweden: Beating up people who disagree with you, bragging about it, and then saying youre antifascist.

The SVP is trying to consolidate a power base by pandering to the fears of a xenophobic Swiss population. By doing so, they are legitimising such fears and xenophobia, making such attacks more likely and more common.
Wrong. They are stopping the importation of non-need multiculturalism and curbing crime but non-citizens. It's very real. Those kinds of attacks will happen anywhere, regardless of politics. Don't use it to further YOUR political agenda.


I never said they were responsible for the attack. I said they were affecting Swiss society in a negative manner.
Above.

That's nice, but your opinion doesn't mean jack shit. If you have sources, present them. If not, quit talking out of your ass.
Actually, my opinion means alot since I've travelled through the country, stayed there for the summer, have friends and connections there and the SVP has been growing. I am a source on this matter, if you don't want to beleive it, that's ok with me....in all honesty I probably wouldn't beleive it if you told this to me, but hey...that's life. Anyway, just because one source you show says that it seems that the SVP is stopping to grow doesn't mean it's stopping...and we'll see what happens in the elections.

Grow up. You can whine about bias all you want. Until you show bias, you're talking out of your ass again. This is especially ironic coming from someone who habitually uses blogs as source material.
I did show the bias, below.

That's right. Blame the source when it presents the story in a way that doesn't reflect your politics.
No, but I'll blame it when it has a bias....as it had. For example, quoted directly from the title of one of the articles in my OP: "Rioters hurl petrol bombs and torch cars in capital".

Where as your stupid biased article says: "On Saturday, counter-demonstrators threw rocks and bottles at Swiss People’s Party protesters during a political rally in front of the national parliament building. Police fired tear gas to break up the melee."

It's completly biased..showing the SVP supporters as throing rocks and bottles but not even mentioning the fact that the "protesters" and I use that in the losest sense of the word, aka, incorrectly, were hurling petrol bombs and torching cars. This article can go fuck itself.

When I see a certain type of bigoted, ignorant and hateful nationalism displayed in any such nation I call it what it is.
Well all those nations display certain elements of nationalism or anti-immigrant tendancies...so go on...make your nazi references about them. Go on now.


See? There you go. You don't whine about the "American" anything when it's a riot in America. Because that would interfere with your blind pseudo-patriotism.

Nice that you got to blame it on "Blacks" though. Apparently if people riot in Switzerland, it's "Swiss" something or other (intolerance of democracy, I guess). If people riot in America, it's not "American" being idiots and civilized, it's "blacks."
Ok, if Blacks rioted in Switzerland it would be a black riot too....because these Blacks that were rioting in America don't hold an American position on things..they hold their own opinions of the Black community, which is largly out of line with a general American point of view. But, stop going on about this because it's getting off topic, I don't mind if you keep arguing, just not about America.
You provide a lot of insight into your worldview. Like I said, more than I want to know. Keep your jackboots in the closet.
They're stored in there with your brain.

Like I give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about the Swiss love of green countrysides.
Were you brought up as some kind of hick? Why the language if not?

Tell me, is attacking people with chainsaws part of the traditions that the Swiss should keep?
Is it part of their traditions to begin with? No? Then what is the relevance?

So often this has proven to be false.
So often people will make arguments without anything to back them up, like you just did!

See also Luxembourg. And myself. I can speak plenty of languages. But erm I'm still pretty white and European...
And this is bad, because...?

Hills, cheese, laundered money and cuckoo clocks?
Gee, and you foreigners have the audacity to blame US for being ignorant?

Nice that you got to blame it on "Blacks" though. Apparently if people riot in Switzerland, it's "Swiss" something or other (intolerance of democracy, I guess). If people riot in America, it's not "American" being idiots and civilized, it's "blacks."
Get off your high horse, pardner. You baited him.

Will do, but...it's hard to not take seriously when you say that you wish every single Swiss person died from some kind of plague thing....another poster noted that also. It's one thing to make jokes about mud or pies, but it's another thing to say you wish to see the death of every single Swiss person.


I wished no such thing. Otherwise, I would not have also injected such an easy and profoundly interesting cure. :)

Well it's good to know that absolutely everything I say must be taken Super Seriously.

Wrong. They are stopping the importation of non-need multiculturalism and curbing crime but non-citizens. It's very real. Those kinds of attacks will happen anywhere, regardless of politics. Don't use it to further YOUR political agenda.

First of all, your English is atrocious. What the fuck does 'importation of non-need multiculturalism and curbing crime but non-citizens' mean? Secondly, these attacks do not occur everywhere. They only occur in places where racist fucktards feel they can get away with it. Apparently in Zurich, they do feel that way, thanks to the SVP. Making racism legal (http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/swissinfo.html?siteSect=881&sid=7136130)is part of the SVP agenda, after all.

Actually, my opinion means alot since I've travelled through the country, stayed there for the summer, have friends and connections there and the SVP has been growing. I am a source on this matter, if you don't want to beleive it, that's ok with me....in all honesty I probably wouldn't beleive it if you told this to me, but hey...that's life. Anyway, just because one source you show says that it seems that the SVP is stopping to grow doesn't mean it's stopping...and we'll see what happens in the elections.

:rolleyes:

No, but I'll blame it when it has a bias....snip rant about bias.....This article can go fuck itself.

I linked to the article to show the attack on Mr. Costa. Are you claiming the Kansas City Star is so liberally biased as to make that up? Many conservatives love to believe the mainstream media is out to get them, but this is too much. And didn't you tell me to watch my mouth?

Oh yeah...contributing. You've totally convinced me! How could most Swiss voters be so stupid as to discriminate wealthy Americans or educated middle class German and Austrian workers when they could be importing Islander hip-hop teachers!:rolleyes: Puh-lease. It's called selective immigration, you pick the immigrants who beneift your community/country.

Just because you're too ignorant to see how his actions contribute to his community does not mean he is not contributing.

First of all, your English is atrocious. What the fuck does 'importation of non-need multiculturalism and curbing crime but non-citizens' mean? Secondly, these attacks do not occur everywhere. They only occur in places where racist fucktards feel they can get away with it. Apparently in Zurich, they do feel that way, thanks to the SVP. Making racism legal (http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/swissinfo.html?siteSect=881&sid=7136130)is part of the SVP agenda, after al.l
Yes, excuse me for actually having a life and being tired because of the Oktoberfest festival. I mean, and I'm pretty sure one could still understand it, that the SVP is stopping the importation of what they beleive is excessive and non-needed multiculturalism AND are curbing crime caused by non-citizens. Remember, a large portion of their campaign is showing how much crime is caused by non-citizens in proportion to citizens. As for the making free-speech legal...meh. We have that in America yet we are not a Nazi supporting country....I don't really care either way, but look at Germany that has a Nazi party even with it's anti-racist legislation...so meh, I don't really care either way.



:rolleyes:
Oh yeah, it must kill you that I actually am not just an arm-chair international man, posting only what I know from wikipedia...but that I've actually travelled and have connections in multiple countries. I'm very fortunate and I understand that, but that doesn't mean I don't get to use why insights from travelling in debate/argument/conversation.


I linked to the article to show the attack on Mr. Costa. Are you claiming the Kansas City Star is so liberally biased as to make that up? Many conservatives love to believe the mainstream media is out to get them, but this is too much. And didn't you tell me to watch my mouth?
Yes, I did tell you to watch your mouth, when saying that stuff to me..I don't care what you say in regards to newspaper articles though. I don't care what you linked it to...the fact of the matter is that Newspaper has a HUGE bias as I already showed they were totally ill-informed about the rioting incident, trying to totally downplay it from the left-wing angle.

Just because you're too ignorant to see how his actions contribute to his community does not mean he is not contributing.
Just because your too "yay, be happy love everyone!", aka, unrealistic, to see how the world really works doesn't mean there is not such a concept as selective immigration....meaning that the people bring in people to their soceity that will really help...such as the educated and the rich or middle class Germans and Austrians who are very easy to integrate, in comparison to most the rest of the world.

Does selective immigration = Ignorance, as you put it? Or does Selective Immigration = Realism and looking out for the country's best interest, as I put it?

Well it's good to know that absolutely everything I say must be taken Super Seriously.
Sorry, but in Atlantian this translates to:

"I got pwned by The Atlantian Islands, Lackadaisical1 and Imperial Brazil and I made a huge mistake assuming the Swiss who spoke Romansch were Gypsies. I'm also a big racist because I dont think there is cultural/ethnic diversity within the White race, yet there is between every other race."

Enjoy your day, oh, and by the way, would you like some fries with that pwnage?

Yes, excuse me for actually having a life and being tired because of the Oktoberfest festival. I mean, and I'm pretty sure one could still understand it, that the SVP is stoppin the importation of what they beleive is excess and non-need multiculturalism AND are curbing crime by non-citizens. Remember, a large portion of their campaign is showing how much crime is caused by non-citizens in proportion to citizens. As for the making free-speech legal...meh. We have that in America yet we are not a Nazi supporting country....I don't really care either way, but look at Germany that has a Nazi party even with it's anti-racist legislation...so meh, I don't really care either way.

I think it's fucking hilarious that I, an immigrant from a non-English speaking country, have better English skills than you.

The SVP is attempting to stop what they consider to be excessive multiculturalism. They will fail. And while it is fun to blame crime on immigrants, I am fairly sure that even if non-citizens are disproportionately guilty of crimes, the vast majority of crime is still perpetrated by citizens. If the SVP really cared about reducing crime, why don't they do something about? Oh right, because they're racist fucktards pandering to people's ignorance and xenophobia.

By the way, nice dodge of my point that the SVP is openly trying to create a climate of culturally supported racism.

Oh yeah, it must kill you that I actually am not just an arm-chair international man, posting only what I know from wikipedia...but that I've actually travelled and have connections in multiple countries. I'm very fortunate and I understand that, but that doesn't mean I don't get to use why insights from travelling in debate/argument/conversation.

You don't get to use them for lots of reasons. But the biggest reason is because you're some anonymous internet troll who may never have been to Switzerland. Tell me, how long did you live in Chile under Pinochet before you decided you liked his regime?

Yes, I did tell you to watch your mouth, when saying that stuff to me..I don't care what you say in regards to newspaper articles though. I don't care what you linked it to...the fact of the matter is that Newspaper has a HUGE bias as I already showed they were totally ill-informed about the rioting incident, trying to totally downplay it from the left-wing angle.

I will type slowly for you. I don't give a fuck about your claims of bias. They don't matter at all. They are not pertinent to the debate. This is just a bunch of bullshit you're throwing up to hide the fact that you can't disprove my claim that the SVP is fostering a dynamic of intolerance and xenophobia.

Just because your too "yay, be happy love everyone!", aka, unrealistic, to see how the world really works doesn't mean there is not such a concept as selective immigration....meaning that the people bring in people to their soceity that will really help...such as the educated and the rich or middle class Germans and Austrians who are very easy to integrate, in comparison to most the rest of the world.

The pampered young white male calls me unrealistic. It is too droll. But in your wild flailing you managed to almost make a point, which I will address: selective immigration. Please tell me how your example of selective immigration would benefit Switzerland. Please include sources (and I don't mean you, moron) showing the changing demographics of Switzerland, and reasonable estimates of how they will change in the future. Show how wealthy and middle class North Americans and Europeans would be the ideal demographic for addressing the changing demographics of Switzerland's future.

Example:

The USA is currently experiencing a labor shortage in agriculture and construction.

Source: http://www.nvczone.com/Labor_Shortage_MarchApril_2006.htm

I propose hiring unskilled Mexicans at 3$ an hour. A proposal to have wealthy educated Swiss people come pick oranges and haul drywall would be expensive, inefficient, and too small to help with the labour shortage.

Your turn.

Oh wait, you can't do that? Must be because you're talking out of your ass again.

Does selective immigration = Ignorance, as you put it? Or does Selective Immigration = Realism and looking out for the country's best interest, as I put it?

Apparently, your definition of selective immigration is based on ignorance. I could be wrong, but you'd have to prove it.

Well all those nations display certain elements of nationalism or anti-immigrant tendancies...so go on...make your nazi references about them. Go on now.

My references aren't about the countries either, but the nationalist movements within them. And I have, and do, make my comments about them. I hardly think this is the relevant time to do so though, particularly since doing so (or not doing so) wouldn't have any effect on either of our arguments.

Ok, if Blacks rioted in Switzerland it would be a black riot too....because these Blacks that were rioting in America don't hold an American position on things..they hold their own opinions of the Black community, which is largly out of line with a general American point of view.

lol. Yes, black people are unAmerican.

This wasn't about if black people rioted in Switzerland. Obviously there you'd have been torn between slamming either Switzerland or black people and here you chose black people. I guess it works for you like this:

If foreigners riot in the capital, make generalized comments about foreign nation and its collective position on democracy.

If Americans riot in the capital, and are black, make generalized comments about black people and their collective position on America.

If Americans riot in the capital and are not black, they're probably leftist communist America hating liberal democrats.

Eh?


They're stored in there with your brain.

No, while I'm pretty sure a guy like you might have jackboots lying around his house, I'm even more sure that you don't have my brain lying around your house.

Get off your high horse, pardner. You baited him.

Yes, I simply gave him a chance to explain his position with regards to how easy it was to make negative generalizations about "Swiss" anything but his inconsistent, comparative reluctance to do the same about "American" things.

I wasn't intending to drag out with "bait" anything about his position on black people.

Though I do find it relevant, since generally you fascists tend to also be bigots, and this just goes to show it.

I think it's fucking hilarious that I, an immigrant from a non-English speaking country, have better English skills than you.
Well if you think it's funny that I was drunk from the Oktoberfest, replied to literally tons of posts then woke up and replied to more when I was still tired and in the process of this made some typos....then..have a hearty laugh?:confused:
The SVP is attempting to stop what they consider to be excessive multiculturalism. They will fail. And while it is fun to blame crime on immigrants, I am fairly sure that even if non-citizens are disproportionately guilty of crimes, the vast majority of crime is still perpetrated by citizens. If the SVP really cared about reducing crime, why don't they do something about? Oh right, because they're racist fucktards pandering to people's ignorance and xenophobia.
Awww, poor baby. Did we hit a soft spot on this issue because you've just told us that you yourself are an immigrant and thus biased against this kind of political thought? Oh, how...unfortunate.;) You say they will fail? That's funny because it seems to me that they will win in the election...and, many Swiss agree that there are problems with foreigners and their high percentage of crime. The SVP is ALSO against Swiss crime, obviously, but tends to focus more on non-citizen crime because those criminals can be deported thus totally solving the issue.

By the way, nice dodge of my point that the SVP is openly trying to create a climate of culturally supported racism.
You say racism, I say preserving their soceity, something much of the Swiss voters support.

You don't get to use them for lots of reasons. But the biggest reason is because you're some anonymous internet troll who may never have been to Switzerland.
Ah, I see...so I'm a troll because I don't agree with you. Fascinating tactic used by the left.:p Fortunatly, you're wrong and I'm not a troll, as has been said by Moderation. As to Switzerland, I'm not even going to try to convince you, but if it matters at all I think I posted pictures a while back. So you lose there.

I will type slowly for you.
This is an internet forum, that doesn't do anytihng for my reading comprehension, just shows your lack of typing skills.;)
I don't give a fuck about your claims of bias.
Fortunatly for me, that doesn't matter because it was the article I was proving biased, which it was. It hardly makes a difference whether you give a fuck, or you don't, or you give three fucks.


The pampered young white male calls me unrealistic. It is too droll.
Ah, a flame? Knew these would arrive soon. But I guess that's what I expect from an immigrant on an immigration issue, as you put it in the opening sentance of this post.

Please include sources (and I don't mean you, moron)
Ah, another flame! Fantastic :) Thank you for proving my above point.

Please tell me how your example of selective immigration would benefit Switzerland. Show how wealthy and middle class North Americans and Europeans would be the ideal demographic for addressing the changing demographics of Switzerland's future.
http://switzerland.isyours.com/E/GE/immi.htm
"But now Switzerland is a rich country and many people would like to immigrate here. In some cantons like Geneva, foreigners make up 30% of the population and that's not counting second generation immigrants. This situation has led to the introduction of laws and regulations that restrict immigration and make it particularly difficult to obtain Swiss citizenship. However, you should not be too concerned about this if you want to live in Switzerland. Swiss law favors educated professionals and the rich, and even provides incentives for them to live and set up businesses in Switzerland."


Nowadays, there are three kinds of immigrants coming to Switzerland:


Well-educated, skilled professionals such as engineers and consultants, who come to Switzerland to work as highly-skilled employees or start their own business; and the rich who come to live off their wealth. These immigrants are advantaged by Swiss immigration laws.


Political refugees who come to seek asylum. Over the years, Switzerland has welcomed hundreds of thousands of political refugees from the world's trouble spots, and we continue to do so. However, Swiss law prevents us from allowing in persons who try to exploit our social system.


Low-skilled workers, especially from Portugal, Northern Spain and Southern Italy, who come here to offer their work for our excellent wages. The law severely restricts this category of immigrants who are already in Switzerland in large numbers.



Example:

The USA is currently....some off topic rambling that I didn't read.
I stopped at The USA...try to stay with the topic please. Ok, cupcake?

Well if you think it's funny that I was drunk from the Oktoberfest, replied to literally tons of posts then woke up and replied to more when I was still tired and in the process of this made some typos....then..have a hearty laugh?:confused:

Thank you. I often have a hearty laugh at your expense.

Awww, poor baby. Did we hit a soft spot on this issue because you've just told us that you yourself are an immigrant and thus biased against this kind of political thought? Oh, how...unfortunate.;) You say they will fail? That's funny because it seems to me that they will win in the election...and, many Swiss agree that there are problems with foreigners and their high percentage of crime. The SVP is ALSO against Swiss crime, obviously, but tends to focus more on non-citizen crime because those criminals can be deported thus totally solving the issue.

Don't worry about me. I've dealt with racist assholes before. My feelings won't get hurt.

I mean that they will fail to stop the ever increasing spread of multiculturalism. As globalisation increases, so does trade and other forms of communication. Along with this communication, cultural ideas and artifacts move across borders. To stop such movement, you would need to completely isolate yourselves. Considering the vast amount of international banking that is done in Switzerland, no politician in their right mind would be so isolationist as to stop trade. Therefore, groups such as the SVP will never stop globalisation and multiculturalism. The most they could ever do is slow it down. Switzerland is not so isolationist that they would keep out even the good things. The Swiss are famous for the chocolate after all.

Now, you keep saying 'many Swiss agree'. How many is that? Five? Eighteen thousand? And you support deporting people for small crimes like jaywalking, or underage drinking??

You say racism, I say preserving their soceity, something much of the Swiss voters support.

And you dodge it again. I will consider this point conceded. You are unable to bring up even the vaguest semblance of a counterargument to my statement that the SVP are fostering a culture of racism and xenophobia.

Ah, I see...so I'm a troll because I don't agree with you. Fascinating tactic used by the left.:p Fortunatly, you're wrong and I'm not a troll, as has been said by Moderation. As to Switzerland, I'm not even going to try to convince you, but if it matters at all I think I posted pictures a while back. So you lose there.

Actually, you're a troll because you say dumb shit just to get a rise out of people. Unless of course you actually support Pinochet. In which case, you are something far worse. As for your SWitzerland photos, I call them bullshit. Prove me wrong.

This is an internet forum, that doesn't do anytihng for my reading comprehension, just shows your lack of typing skills.;)

Oh. You're trying to be humourous here. :rolleyes:

Fortunatly for me, that doesn't matter because it was the article I was proving biased, which it was. It hardly makes a difference whether you give a fuck, or you don't, or you give three fucks.

Whatever. Even if it was the most biased article in the world, it would not affect the debate in any way.

Ah, a flame? Knew these would arrive soon. But I guess that's what I expect from an immigrant on an immigration issue, as you put it in the opening sentance of this post.

I think claiming yourself as a source on Swiss politics is moronic. You have yet to convince me otherwise.

Ah, another flame! Fantastic :) Thank you for proving my above point.

Yes. It is entirely because I am an immigrant. You see, I am from Switzerland.

http://switzerland.isyours.com/E/GE/immi.htm...

That was almost an argument. Well done. Someday you may even be able to make a point by yourself.

Now, an online ad for a company that only offers services to the first category is not a reputable source. I meant a source that shows how the labor market in Switzerland will be twenty years from now, and why rich USians would be able to desirable in such a market. Try again.

I stopped at The USA...try to stay with the topic please. Ok, cupcake?

That's okay. You didn't need to read it. It would have helped, as you would have been able to construct a cogent argument as I asked above, but it wasn't necessary.

Sorry, but in Atlantian this translates to:

"I got pwned by The Atlantian Islands, Lackadaisical1 and Imperial Brazil
Erm not really. Nobody actually proved any counter-evidence to what I said.

"Well if you think it's funny that I was drunk from the Oktoberfest"

Keep in mind that I could use a similar argument to stop any kind of criticism in the same fashion as you did - most of my friends are turning 18 in the next couple of months, and I'll basically be drunk for the next...erm... ages.

So there we go. I am INVINCIBLE in any argument now.
and I made a huge mistake assuming the Swiss who spoke Romansch were Gypsies.
Yeah, sorry about that.

What is the Swiss-German world for "Romani"?
I'm also a big racist because I dont think there is cultural/ethnic diversity within the White race, yet there is between every other race."
Sorry, pardon?

Where did I say this? The whole white thing I said, aye. Didn't say about anything else.
Enjoy your day, oh, and by the way, would you like some fries with that pwnage?
Erm, not really. Food is not what I need whatsoever. A good lie down and a couple of litres of water = handy at this point.

Yes, I simply gave him a chance to explain his position with regards to how easy it was to make negative generalizations about "Swiss" anything but his inconsistent, comparative reluctance to do the same about "American" things.
By posting a riot with black Americans...

I wasn't intending to drag out with "bait" anything about his position on black people.

Though I do find it relevant, since generally you fascists tend to also be bigots, and this just goes to show it.
"You" fascists? Sir, I only obey one force, and that is the Lord Our Savior. But such notions are beyond heathens such as yourself, no doubt.


Gift-of-God, instead of whining about Atlantian Isle's English (yours ain't much better; humourous?), how about you improve your own by cutting down on the profanity? "Fucking" this, and "fucking" that. Does it empower your otherwise weak personality?

Actually, you're a troll because you say dumb shit just to get a rise out of people. Unless of course you actually support Pinochet. In which case, you are something far worse. As for your SWitzerland photos, I call them bullshit. Prove me wrong.
Such aggression, such fervor! Such...

I better not go on.

The amount of people getting away with flaming and mild trolling here is incredible. Your own posts are an affront to calm, rational discourse. And yet you call him a troll? Sad, deluded little creature...

Such aggression, such fervor! Such...

I better not go on.

The amount of people getting away with flaming and mild trolling here is incredible. Your own posts are an affront to calm, rational discourse. And yet you call him a troll? Sad, deluded little creature...

Coming from the guy that refers to liberals as if they were second class people on a daily basis, your post is pretty damn ironic.

Erm not really. Nobody actually proved any counter-evidence to what I said.
Wrong, when in fact we all said that it was racist of you to assume that there is no cultural diversity between the French, Italian, German and Romansch areas of Switzerland simply because they were all White Europeans.:rolleyes:

So there we go. I am INVINCIBLE in any argument now.
Wrong, I simply used it to show the reason why some of my grammar (or whatever it was, I forgot already) in a few sentances was...below par. I didn't use it all in reference to my argument or anything....anyway, drop it..it's in the past and is totally off-topic.


Yeah, sorry about that.
No problem. In fact..because you are being very civil in this manner, I'll happily explain to your the below:
What is the Swiss-German world for "Romani"?
Die sagen Romani und "Romansch" heißt Rätoromanisch (genau so wie auf Schweizerdeutsch). Aber Romani ist einfach Romani.

Where did I say this? The whole white thing I said, aye. Didn't say about anything else.
Answered this above to the first quotation.

Erm, not really. Food is not what I need whatsoever. A good lie down and a couple of litres of water = handy at this point.
If you mean because you're drunk?....Well I'd suggest eating some food also, because it will add some food to your stomach not just all the alcohol. Also, take a shower before you go to sleep, it really makes one feel better.

Coming from the guy that refers to liberals as if they were second class people on a daily basis, your post is pretty damn ironic.
I am only proclaiming God's word. I am sorry if it offends. The Truth often does.

And irony is Sin. Please refrain from its mention in my presence. Many thanks.

Oh, and I forgot to mention - there are no classes of citizen; only heathens and True Believers. It is easy to infer where liberals belong...

I am only proclaiming God's word. I am sorry if it offends. The Truth often does.

And irony is Sin. Please refrain from its mention in my presence. Many thanks.

Oh, and I forgot to mention - there are no classes of citizen; only heathens and True Believers. It is easy to infer where liberals belong...

1- Hubris is a sin. Quite worse than irony.

2- You can't claim you're NOT flaming when you infer that liberals are heathens.

1- Hubris is a sin. Quite worse than irony.
I agree. Why do you display it to such an extent then?

2- You can't claim you're NOT flaming when you infer that liberals are heathens.
Why not? It is merely a truthful observation.

I agree. Why do you display it to such an extent then?


Why not? It is merely a truthful observation.

1- Because I'm not accountable to you or to your interpretation of a god.

2- That you CLAIM it to be truth doesn't make it so.

Awwww is AI being racist again, and laughingly claiming it to be simply in the name of preservation of culture, just like Indians and such?

I do so love these threads.

Awwww is AI being racist again
No..I'm simply backing up a viewpoint that many Swiss (enough to make this the majority party) share.
I do so love these threads.
Well, join in.

Well, join in.

Maybe later.

Thank you. I often have a hearty laugh at your expense.
Too bad, you could be out doing out things like..oh..enjoying life?


I mean that they will fail to stop the ever increasing spread of multiculturalism. As globalisation increases, so does trade and other forms of communication. Along with this communication, cultural ideas and artifacts move across borders. To stop such movement, you would need to completely isolate yourselves. Considering the vast amount of international banking that is done in Switzerland, no politician in their right mind would be so isolationist as to stop trade. Therefore, groups such as the SVP will never stop globalisation and multiculturalism. The most they could ever do is slow it down. Switzerland is not so isolationist that they would keep out even the good things. The Swiss are famous for the chocolate after all.
What you fail to understand is that there is a huge difference between open borders for human immigration and open borders for capital, ideas, and communication. The SVP understands that and so do I.

Now, you keep saying 'many Swiss agree'. How many is that? Five? Eighteen thousand? And you support deporting people for small crimes like jaywalking, or underage drinking??
Enough to make the SVP the largest party. And the SVP is not on a campaign to deport people simply for underage drinking or jaywalking...let's not get carried away here....
And you dodge it again. I will consider this point conceded. You are unable to bring up even the vaguest semblance of a counterargument to my statement that the SVP are fostering a culture of racism and xenophobia.
No..because when I say nationalism and selective border control and the limiting of multiculturalism...which I HOPE that the SVP is fostering as a culture...you say they are fostering a culture of xenophobia and racism...it's all a matter of perspective.


Actually, you're a troll because you say dumb shit just to get a rise out of people. Unless of course you actually support Pinochet. In which case, you are something far worse. As for your SWitzerland photos, I call them bullshit. Prove me wrong.
Wrong again and who are you to say Im saying dumb shit? Just because this is personal for you because you're an immigrant does not mean you get to play "internet bad-boy" and use "harsh language" to make yourself look tough. It's making me giggle.:p I do support what Pinochet did to Chile's economy, but that's neither here nor there. As for my photos, I said I've already posted them, not that it matters because you'd just tell me that's not me.


Whatever. Even if it was the most biased article in the world, it would not affect the debate in any way.
Wrong. In my university they teach us that if a source loses it's credibility, it no longer becomes a source. I know that with the source biasd towards your view, you don't want to accept that..but that's not my problem.

I think claiming yourself as a source on Swiss politics is moronic. You have yet to convince me otherwise.
Fantastic, here's the problem. You didn't call that moronic, you called me a moron. Big difference...hence the flame. Also, you presume to believe that I care what you think about me which is...oh, let's just say...grossly incorrect.


Yes. It is entirely because I am an immigrant. You see, I am from Switzerland.
Oh, wonderful! If you are indeed telling the truth, that means you'll get to witness the SVP winning first hand! If, in fact you are lying, as I am guessing, you're using a pathetic ploy. Oh, and by the way...which canton would you be from, hypothetically?


That was almost an argument. Well done. Someday you may even be able to make a point by yourself.
No, that was an argument and a credible source. That was a credible Swiss site dealing with immigration and ADMITTING that Swiss law favors the educated, skilled and wealthy when taking in immigrants.
http://switzerland.isyours.com/E/contact/index.html
Regardless of which type of immigrant they choose, they show that Swiss law trys to limit the number of low skilled workers and tries to regulate the number of political refugees who come and take advantage of Swiss soceity, while the laws FAVOR the first type of immigrant.

2- You can't claim you're NOT flaming when you infer that liberals are heathens.Why not? It is merely a truthful observation.

It is nonetheless flaming. Your opinion does not override the rules of these forums. Knock it off, now.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

Maybe later.
Is that an icy sarcastic cold shoulder "maybe later" or a civil perhaps slightly interested in the conversation but I'm busy at the moment "maybe later"?

Is that an icy sarcastic cold shoulder "maybe later" or a civil perhaps slightly interested in the conversation but I'm busy at the moment "maybe later"?

It's a 'I've got a headcold and I'm not certain I can participate in bashing you quite to the level I desire, so perhaps I'll pass and simply watch a bad Nicholas Cage movie instead'. Then again, maybe I'll get loopy on some NeoCitron and be back to babble.

It's a 'I've got a headcold and I'm not certain I can participate in bashing you quite to the level I desire, so perhaps I'll pass and simply watch a bad Nicholas Cage movie instead'.
It better be Gone in 60 Seconds with Angelina Jolie!;)

Then again, maybe I'll get loopy on some NeoCitron and be back to babble. I'll be here for a long time...I'm working on a speech for class that has to be perfected before Tuesday.....




I hope you feel better.....and note.....this doesn't mean I like you.;)

1- Because I'm not accountable to you or to your interpretation of a god.
True, you can always ignore God's Word. The consequences will only arrive later. Until then, feel free to sin away. You'll have an entire afterlife to regret it. :)

2- That you CLAIM it to be truth doesn't make it so.
I am merely the Lord's messenger.

True, you can always ignore God's Word. The consequences will only arrive later. Until then, feel free to sin away. You'll have an entire afterlife to regret it. :)


I am merely the Lord's messenger.


I don't mind religious people, the only problem I have with christianity is this: if your God is all forgiving how in the fuck can there be a hell. If all your sins are forgiven, how can you go to hell; because technically you're as innocent as a newborn.

I don't mind religious people, the only problem I have with christianity is this: if your God is all forgiving how in the fuck can there be a hell. If all your sins are forgiven, how can you go to hell;
Forgiven? Whose sins are forgiven?

because technically you're as innocent as a newborn.
You are? We are all tainted with the Original Sin. Only by means of a life of purity and chastity can we overcome it. For those who fail, there is balefire...

Forgiven? Whose sins are forgiven?


You are?

Everyone's. When I went to sunday school as a child, they taught us that god was all forgiving and no matter what you did he would forgive you and allow you into the light. SO. My point was, if your GOD is all forgiving how can it send people to hell? Simple question.

True, you can always ignore God's Word. The consequences will only arrive later. Until then, feel free to sin away. You'll have an entire afterlife to regret it. :)


I am merely the Lord's messenger.

1- You are not God. You can't even be sure he is this hateful being you seem to tout so much. Indeed, since God is omniscient, I'm pretty sure He ISN'T this ball of hatred and pettiness you're rooting for Him to be.

2- Unless He PERSONALLY informed you that you're his "messenger", you have no evidence whatsoever that you're doing his will. For all you know it could be quite the opposite. Indeed, we've seen many false prophets described, even, in the Bible. Down they went.

3- Putting a smiley with the thought of a fellow man going to Hell isn't Christian. At all.

4- This thread-jack ends here, as I am under no obligation and with no intent to further enlighten you. Assuming such a task is is possible.

Forgiven? Whose sins are forgiven?


You are? We are all tainted with the Original Sin. Only by means of a life of purity and chastity can we overcome it. For those who fail, there is balefire...
Despite your thread jacking, I feel compelled to give you a gentle nudge off your soapbox. :p

Quit playing God and remember that it is He that will do the forgiving and judging, and in reference to the forgiving God, remember that it is 7 times 70.

No..I'm simply backing up a viewpoint that many Swiss (enough to make this the majority party) share.
Well, the point is that this does not make it right. By appealing to this majority of yours, you're appealing to some authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority).

So your backing up is what matters, whether or not the SVP is a mass party or just a bunch of hooligans with baseball bats is not really relevant.

Hello People? Pinochet Fanboy bitching about the Swiss "Left" having no respect for democracy? Pitching Boulder at a Greenhouse. Glass Shattering. Pretty Sparkling. Sky No Longer Blue. Hell Freezes Over. Moon Turns Blood Red. Pigs Command Squadron of F-22 Raptors. Fass Mellows. Goofballs Goes Serious. Human Sacrifices, Dogs and Cats Living Together, Mass Hysteria.

Hello People? Pinochet Fanboy bitching about the Swiss "Left" having no respect for democracy? Pitching Boulder at a Greenhouse. Glass Shattering. Pretty Sparkling. Sky No Longer Blue. Hell Freezes Over. Moon Turns Blood Red. Pigs Command Squadron of F-22 Raptors. Fass Mellows. Goofballs Goes Serious. Human Sacrifices, Dogs and Cats Living Together, Mass Hysteria.
Zeeeee sky is falling!!! :D

1- You are not God. You can't even be sure he is this hateful being you seem to tout so much. Indeed, since God is omniscient, I'm pretty sure He ISN'T this ball of hatred and pettiness you're rooting for Him to be.
Heaven forbid! I most certainly am not God. And it is not hatred that fuels the magnificent one. It is a sense of true Justice.

2- Unless He PERSONALLY informed you that you're his "messenger", you have no evidence whatsoever that you're doing his will. For all you know it could be quite the opposite. Indeed, we've seen many false prophets described, even, in the Bible. Down they went.
Indeed. That reflects badly on them. Not on me.

3- Putting a smiley with the thought of a fellow man going to Hell isn't Christian. At all.

I merely rejoice at the idea of the Lord's will coming to bear. It is not gloating, no, just my sense of justice being fulfilled.

4- This thread-jack ends here, as I am under no obligation and with no intent to further enlighten you. Assuming such a task is is possible.
You mistake me for being a bigot. I am a very open-minded individual.

Heaven forbid! I most certainly am not God. And it is not hatred that fuels the magnificent one. It is a sense of true Justice.


Indeed. That reflects badly on them. Not on me.


I merely rejoice at the idea of the Lord's will coming to bear. It is not gloating, no, just my sense of justice being fulfilled.


You mistake me for being a bigot. I am a very open-minded individual.


Why dont you go to Alabama and you can burn crosses with all your little zealot friends.

Heaven forbid! I most certainly am not God. And it is not hatred that fuels the magnificent one. It is a sense of true Justice.

Indeed. That reflects badly on them. Not on me.

I merely rejoice at the idea of the Lord's will coming to bear. It is not gloating, no, just my sense of justice being fulfilled.

You mistake me for being a bigot. I am a very open-minded individual.
What justice do you speak of? You seem to be taking on the role of judge, jury, and executioner. If people are not doing God's will according to your understanding, I believe that you should be praying for those individuals rather than condemning them?

What justice do you speak of? You seem to be taking on the role of judge, jury, and executioner. If people are not doing God's will according to your understanding, I believe that you should be praying for those individuals rather than condemning them?
In condemnation I help them realize their sin, so that they may atone for it.

And I speak of the only Justice there is - God's.

Why dont you go to Alabama and you can burn crosses with all your little zealot friends.
What are you implying?

By posting a riot with black Americans...

What does them being black have to do with it? So far only you and TAI are the only ones who seem to concentrate on their ethnicity, and thus completely missing the point. See that thing flying away, way above your head? That was the point. Ah jeez, you just missed it. Oh well.

"You" fascists? Sir, I only obey one force, and that is the Lord Our Savior. But such notions are beyond heathens such as yourself, no doubt.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding everyone that you're a fundie troll. You're almost convincing. Though real ones don't spit out "heathen" quite so much, at least not in this century.

No..I'm simply backing up a viewpoint that many Swiss (enough to make this the majority party) share.

Argumentum ad populum.

So what you are "simply" doing is making a fallacious argument based on little more than your personal politics and pointing out to its supposed popularity in Switzerland as some sort of justification. You know, Nazism was pretty popular in Germany, maybe that's an argument for mandatory wearing of gold stars.

In condemnation I help them realize their sin, so that they may atone for it.

And I speak of the only Justice there is - God's.
Jesussaves was better.

Jesussaves was better.
I know not of what you speak.

What does them being black have to do with it?
My guess is that you expected TAI to comment on it - you baited him, if not very overtly.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding everyone that you're a fundie troll. You're almost convincing. Though real ones don't spit out "heathen" quite so much, at least not in this century.
I'd watch who you called a troll of I were you, what with that abrasive tone of yours. It is most unnecessary. Liberals and manners don't seem to mix very well...

My guess is that you expected TAI to comment on it - you baited him, if not very overtly.

I expected him to comment with regards to making a generalization about "American" anything. I expected him to not make a generalization about "American" when he would about "Swiss."

What I did not expect was that he would instead make generalizations about "Blacks." That was really a bonus insight into the bigoted mind of my opponents.

I'd watch who you called a troll of I were you, what with that abrasive tone of yours. It is most unnecessary. Liberals and manners don't seem to mix very well...

What makes you think I'm either a heathen or a liberal? You've been here what, five minutes?

What makes you think I'm either a heathen or a liberal? You've been here what, five minutes?
This can be resolved easily -

Do you believe in the Lord? Unswervingly?

Are you against the conservatism dictated by His Supreme Will?

This can be resolved easily -

Do you believe in the Lord? Unswervingly?

Are you against the conservatism dictated by His Supreme Will?

Wait, so you make judgement and then ask questions? Isn't that a little like washing your hands and then taking a shit?

Wait, so you make judgement and then ask questions? Isn't that a little like washing your hands and then taking a shit?
:eek:




:D

http://www.kaitaia.com/funny/pictures/ThreadHijack/thread_direction.gif

Too bad, you could be out doing out things like..oh..enjoying life?

Whatever.

What you fail to understand is that there is a huge difference between open borders for human immigration and open borders for capital, ideas, and communication. The SVP understands that and so do I.

What you, and the SVP apparently, fail to understand is that multiculturalism is about ideas and communication as well as human immigration.

Once you open the door to movement of capital, you also have to open the door to those people who move the capital. These people are either strangers or must constantly deal with strangers. Therefore, there is a direct relation between international trade and exposure to different cultures. The more you have of the first, the more you will have of the second. As you can imagine, the more exposure to different cultures, the more ideas move across borders as well. From there, it's a short step to people moving across borders. It is not, as you say, a huge difference. it is a very small one.

History shows us that as technology progresses, so does communication and transportation between different cultures. This is what we call globalisation. There seems to be no stopping the progress of globalisation, and people like you and the SVP are trying to stop a tsunami of people and ideas with your bare hands.

Enough to make the SVP the largest party. And the SVP is not on a campaign to deport people simply for underage drinking or jaywalking...let's not get carried away here....

I'm looking for numbers. There is a difference between supporting a party and supporting its entire platform. For example, I support the most leftist party, of the main four, that runs in my riding. However, I do not support their stance on gun control. So for someone to say that the number of Canadians who support this party's stance on gun control is equal to the number of people who support this party is ignorant at best, and downright dishonest at worst.

So, when you say "many Swiss agree that there are problems with foreigners and their high percentage of crime", I want a reputable source that shows what percentage of the population supports such a policy.

But that still doesn't address my original point: the reason that the SVP is focusing on non-citizen crime is because it panders to the xenophobia and racism of their voter base. Please address this point.

No..because when I say nationalism and selective border control and the limiting of multiculturalism...which I HOPE that the SVP is fostering as a culture...you say they are fostering a culture of xenophobia and racism...it's all a matter of perspective.


I'm not judging them on their words. I am judging them on their deeds. Those are not a matter of perspective. Fact: Blocher tried to legalise racist speech. Fact: the SVP is trying to create a culture that is permissive of racism and xenophobia, and apparently succeeding, as shown by the racist attack in Zurich.

Listen, you can easily disprove this point. All you have to do is show that the prevalence of hate crimes was the same before and after the SVP rose to popularity. Go to it. The Internet is your playground.

Wrong again and who are you to say Im saying dumb shit? Just because this is personal for you because you're an immigrant does not mean you get to play "internet bad-boy" and use "harsh language" to make yourself look tough. It's making me giggle.:p I do support what Pinochet did to Chile's economy, but that's neither here nor there. As for my photos, I said I've already posted them, not that it matters because you'd just tell me that's not me.

You're just not getting, are you? No person who wishes to be treated with respect in a political forum would actually voice support for Pinochet. The reasons are numerous and include his rape and torture of political dissidents, the kidnapping and torture of children, the dubiousness of the effectiveness of his economic reforms, and his embezzlement of public funds. Someone with even a cursory knowledge of the history of Pinochet would know this. Therefore anybody who claims otherwise is talking from a position of ignorance. In colloquial terms (that means slang, by the way), they are saying dumb shit.

Consequently, anyone who says things of such obvious ignorance is either lying or stupid. In either case, your authority as a source on anything is suspect. That includes Switzerland.

Wrong. In my university they teach us that if a source loses it's credibility, it no longer becomes a source. I know that with the source biasd towards your view, you don't want to accept that..but that's not my problem.


I will repeat myself, as you were apparently unable to read this the first time. I linked to that article to show that a violent hate crime occurred in Zurich. Now, I will ask you again, are you claiming the Kansas City Star is so liberally biased as to make that up? If not, then the claims of bias are not pertinent to the debate.

Fantastic, here's the problem. You didn't call that moronic, you called me a moron. Big difference...hence the flame. Also, you presume to believe that I care what you think about me which is...oh, let's just say...grossly incorrect.

The only thing you should care about is whether or not I consider you asource on Switzerland. I do not.

Oh, wonderful! If you are indeed telling the truth, that means you'll get to witness the SVP winning first hand! If, in fact you are lying, as I am guessing, you're using a pathetic ploy. Oh, and by the way...which canton would you be from, hypothetically?

Holy fuck, but you require a lot of explaining. My claim that I am Swiss has as much credibility as my claim that I am an immigrant and as much credibility as your claims that you are an authority on Switzerland: absolutely none.

No, that was an argument and a credible source. That was a credible Swiss site dealing with immigration and ADMITTING that Swiss law favors the educated, skilled and wealthy when taking in immigrants.
http://switzerland.isyours.com/E/contact/index.html
Regardless of which type of immigrant they choose, they show that Swiss law trys to limit the number of low skilled workers and tries to regulate the number of political refugees who come and take advantage of Swiss soceity, while the laws FAVOR the first type of immigrant.

The company is called Micheloud & Cie. They are a tax specialist company based in Lausanne. From your original link:

We specialize in assisting only the first category of immigrants. If you would like to live in Switzerland and qualify for that category, we have a full range of services to offer you. Contact us or go to our immigration section.

I was looking for something like an economic prognosis of the Swiss labour market ten years from now, with an explanation as to why wealthy white people would be ideal immigrants for such a labour market. That would have been an argument. And use a spellcheck.

Wait, so you make judgement and then ask questions? Isn't that a little like washing your hands and then taking a shit?
Your posts, so far, have offered no indication to the contrary of what I had claimed - now, would you be so gracious as to answer my questions?

You're just not getting, are you? No person who wishes to be treated with respect in a political forum would actually voice support for Pinochet.
I hope you extend that logic to all sorts of left-wing nuts, including Castro. Love him or hate him, Pinochet did bring about a measure of prosperity to Chile, in spite of his questionable methods.

Holy fuck, but you require a lot of explaining. My claim that I am Swiss has as much credibility as my claim that I am an immigrant and as much credibility as your claims that you are an authority on Switzerland: absolutely none.
So why say you're Swiss? More likely, TAI asked you a question you couldn't answer, so you copped out.

Your posts, so far, have offered no indication to the contrary of what I had claimed

Nor in support. Yet, instead of asking either one question to begin with, you merely assume facets of my character. Do you always assume the worst about people or is it just online when you're trolling?

- now, would you be so gracious as to answer my questions?

Why should I? You already figured you knew the answers before it occurred to you even to ask. You're so hostile and pre-judgemental I don't even care.

Nor in support. Yet, instead of asking either one question to begin with, you merely assume facets of my character. Do you always assume the worst about people or is it just online when you're trolling?
As I said elsewhere, I have been lurking - so this is not the only of your posts I've seen. And whatever gave you the silly notion that I'm trolling? :) Can one not honestly worship the Lord?

Why should I? You already figured you knew the answers before it occurred to you even to ask. You're so hostile and pre-judgemental I don't even care.
Tu quoque. Obviously, by asking I am willing to find out.

Can one not honestly worship the Lord?

Sure, let me know when you begin.

Sure, let me know when you begin.
Always and at all times. :)

Always and at all times. :)

So we don't derail this thread any more than it already is, meet me in the thread I'm about to start.

What you, and the SVP apparently, fail to understand is that multiculturalism is about ideas and communication as well as human immigration.

Once you open the door to movement of capital, you also have to open the door to those people who move the capital. These people are either strangers or must constantly deal with strangers. Therefore, there is a direct relation between international trade and exposure to different cultures. The more you have of the first, the more you will have of the second. As you can imagine, the more exposure to different cultures, the more ideas move across borders as well. From there, it's a short step to people moving across borders. It is not, as you say, a huge difference. it is a very small one.
We disagree. You are underplaying the difference between the transfer of ideas across borders and the transfer of people. The transfer of ideas has no bearing on the tax rate, the local population level, the ethnic tensions, the unemployment...ect. They are two seperate things.

History shows us that as technology progresses, so does communication and transportation between different cultures. This is what we call globalisation. There seems to be no stopping the progress of globalisation, and people like you and the SVP are trying to stop a tsunami of people and ideas with your bare hands.
Yes, but Switzerland can have free trade without free immigration since it's not in the European Union.

So, when you say "many Swiss agree that there are problems with foreigners and their high percentage of crime", I want a reputable source that shows what percentage of the population supports such a policy.
Fair enough, I'll find one.

But that still doesn't address my original point: the reason that the SVP is focusing on non-citizen crime is because it panders to the xenophobia and racism of their voter base. Please address this point.
I think the reason that the SVP is focusing on non-citizen crime is because over 20% of the population is foreign born, but their proportion for crime is out of control. The SVP sees this as a major issue. If an individual Swiss is racist or xenophobic as you say, it is irreleveant to the crime rate that the SVP is fighting.

I'm not judging them on their words. I am judging them on their deeds. Those are not a matter of perspective. Fact: Blocher tried to legalise racist speech. Fact: the SVP is trying to create a culture that is permissive of racism and xenophobia, and apparently succeeding, as shown by the racist attack in Zurich.
Fact: Racist speech is legal in America too under free-speech. Fact: The SVP is trying to battle the high level of immigrant crime and what they feel is too much multiculturalism. What neo-nazis do is terrible but not part of the SVP's agenda.




You're just not getting, are you? No person who wishes to be treated with respect in a political forum would actually voice support for Pinochet.
He did what he had to do to ensure that his people weren't starving because they couldn't buy bread due to their money being worthless from the socialist policies before Pinochet took power. Since you've already admitted to being a leftist, I wouldn't expect you to understand.
Consequently, anyone who says things of such obvious ignorance is either lying or stupid. In either case, your authority as a source on anything is suspect. That includes Switzerland.
I never claimed to be a source on Chile, in fact I've never been there...but Switzerland is a different story.


I will repeat myself, as you were apparently unable to read this the first time. I linked to that article to show that a violent hate crime occurred in Zurich. Now, I will ask you again, are you claiming the Kansas City Star is so liberally biased as to make that up? If not, then the claims of bias are not pertinent to the debate.
Who knows? It's credibility to me went out the window.

The only thing you should care about
Well I don't care about that and I told you that already.

Holy fuck, but you require a lot of explaining. My claim that I am Swiss has as much credibility as my claim that I am an immigrant and as much credibility as your claims that you are an authority on Switzerland: absolutely none.
Meh, not really. I've stayed there, I have connections there, I know the politics, I've studied it and I study International Studies and Comparitive Politics. What can you tell me that supports you being Swiss or an immigrant?


The company is called Micheloud & Cie. They are a tax specialist company based in Lausanne. From your original link:

I was looking for something like an economic prognosis of the Swiss labour market ten years from now, with an explanation as to why wealthy white people would be ideal immigrants for such a labour market. That would have been an argument.
The Swiss labor market will be the same it is now and the laws reflect that....that's why I sourced that site. It shows that Swiss lawmakers (and I assume they understand their market) clearly favor the rich, skilled and educated because Switzerland desires them much more than the uneducated unskilled poor worker.

We disagree. You are underplaying the difference between the transfer of ideas across borders and the transfer of people. The transfer of ideas has no bearing on the tax rate, the local population level, the ethnic tensions, the unemployment...ect. They are two seperate things.

Yes, but Switzerland can have free trade without free immigration since it's not in the European Union.

Yes, they are two separate things, but historically, the two have always occurred at the same time. Which I why I say the SVP will fail to limit one and continue the other.

I think the reason that the SVP is focusing on non-citizen crime is because over 20% of the population is foreign born, but their proportion for crime is out of control. The SVP sees this as a major issue. If an individual Swiss is racist or xenophobic as you say, it is irreleveant to the crime rate that the SVP is fighting.

If the SVP was focusing on crime, the citizenship of the criminal wouldn't matter. But the SVP has chosen to explicitly focus on criminals without citizenship. As you say, they see this as a major issue. Why should the SVP see the citizenship status of the criminals as a major issue? There is only one logical answer: racism and xenophobia. If anything else was the reason, then something other than citizenship status would be a major issue.

Fact: Racist speech is legal in America too under free-speech. Fact: The SVP is trying to battle the high level of immigrant crime and what they feel is too much multiculturalism. What neo-nazis do is terrible but not part of the SVP's agenda.

Like I said, if the SVP were not actively trying to create a culture of permissiveness towards bigotry and xenophobia, then it would be obvious in the statistics. I even told you how to prove it. You didn't. Is that because you couldn't?

He did what he had to do to ensure that his people weren't starving because they couldn't buy bread due to their money being worthless from the socialist policies before Pinochet took power. Since you've already admitted to being a leftist, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

I never claimed to be a source on Chile, in fact I've never been there...but Switzerland is a different story.

Look, I'm not going to help you hijack your own thread. Suffice it to say that with every statement you make about Chile, you show yourself to be painfully ignorant about Chile. Let's just say that Pinochet's economic legacy to Chile is somewhat...questionable (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7028503.stm).

I assume you are equally ignorant about Swiss politics.

Who knows? It's credibility to me went out the window.

That's it. Now it's obvious that you are a complete fucking idiot or a troll. You think the Kansas City Star made up this article just to discredit the SVP? Did the Washington Post (http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/08/AR2007100801464.html?hpid=topnews) make it up too? The Seattle Times obviously photoshopped this photo of Mr. Costa (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003944174_swiss12.html).

Meh, not really. I've stayed there, I have connections there, I know the politics, I've studied it and I study International Studies and Comparitive Politics. What can you tell me that supports you being Swiss or an immigrant?

Dude, just fuck off with this shit. You are not a credible source on Switzerland.

The Swiss labor market will be the same it is now and the laws reflect that....that's why I sourced that site. It shows that Swiss lawmakers (and I assume they understand their market) clearly favor the rich, skilled and educated because Switzerland desires them much more than the uneducated unskilled poor worker.

See that bolded bit. That's the part that makes your argument completely worthless. Arguments are based of facts and logic, not assumptions.

Dude, just fuck off with this shit. You are not a credible source on Switzerland.
Based on...?

Do you have some sort of inability to remain civil by the way? Do you suffer from some sort of defect, and thus are deficient in that regard?

As I said elsewhere, I have been lurking - so this is not the only of your posts I've seen. And whatever gave you the silly notion that I'm trolling? :)

I thought about it.


Tu quoque. Obviously, by asking I am willing to find out.

It's not a tu quoque fallacy, because it is not an argument. Simply a statement of opinion - I do not really care what people who pre-judge me so quickly think. You're liable to just continue being that way, so there is no use in edifying you.

http://www.ddleague-usa.net/sbor.htm
Art 2
2. It shall promote the common welfare, the sustainable development, the inner cohesion, and the cultural diversity of the country.
That one's pretty obvious.

I'm guessing the history behinds this one is aimed at German, Italian, French and (one more?) cultures that have been part of Switzerland since it's formation. I doubt it's meant to cover the cultures of immigrants to the country.

Art 7
Human dignity shall be respected and protected.
I don't expect you've ever been witness to the deportation process, rest assured it doesn't exactly leave the victim swimming in dignity. Add the way the SVP portrays immigrants in its campaign, and it's a pretty fat "fail" on Article 7.

Huh? so you're saying that it's a violation of the Swill Bill of Rights to support deporting certain immigrants? I find that very hard to believe.

Art 8
2. Nobody shall suffer discrimination, particularly on grounds of origin, race, sex, age, language, social position, lifestyle, religious, philosophical or political convictions, or because of a corporal or mental disability.
Note how it doesn't say "no citizen". It's a commitment to human rights in general.

So, that means Switzerland can't set criteria for what immigrants are allowed into the country?

Art 9
Every person has the right to be treated by the state organs without arbitrariness and in good faith.
That one's obvious too. In fact, by the logic of the xenophobe (and your own admission) they are opposed to immigration from Ghana or Syria but not as much from Germany or Austria. If that isn't arbitrariness, I don't know what is.

Again, are you making the argument that this provisions gives people in Ghana or Syria the right to immigrate to Switzerland over the objections of the Swiss people? Are you further saying that a political party can't legally argue that immigration to Switzerland should be limited?


Art 10
2. Every person has the right to personal liberty, particularly to corporal and mental integrity, and to freedom of movement.
Ooh, I like that last point, don't you? Again, no mention of "Swiss citizens only".

Nowhere in there does it say that "every person has a right to live in Switzerland."

Art 12
Persons in distress and incapable of looking after themselves have the right to be helped and assisted, and to receive the means that are indispensable for leading a life in human dignity.
Who does this apply to more than asylum seekers and refugees?

So, it is a violation of the Swiss constitution for the Swiss government to refuse to spend money on people outside of Switzerland's borders?


Art 15
2. All persons have the right to choose their religion or philosophical convictions freely, and to profess them alone or in community with others.
3. All persons have the right to join or to belong to a religious community, and to follow religious teachings.
Wait a minute, the Swiss Bill of Rights encourages "parallel communities"?

Sure. But, again, this does not give immigrants the right to actually be in Switzerland.

Art 18
The freedom of language is guaranteed.
German, French and Italian, yes? Arabic, no?

Sure. But, again, this does not give immigrants the right to actually be in Switzerland.


Art 25
2. Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted.
3. No person shall be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture, or another means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment.
Well, that's just too easy.

Just don't let them come to the country in the first place. Problem solved.

37
2. No person shall enjoy a privilege or suffer prejudice because of his or her citizenship. Exceptions are possible to regulate political rights in bourgeoisies and corporations, and provide for participation in their assets, unless cantonal legislation excludes this.
What? No prejudice because you're not a Swiss citizen? Oh, my!

So, you're arguing that once you enter Switzerland, the Swiss government does not have the power to kick you out?

It might seem trite or even mischievous to hark back to the OP at this stage, but repeatedly TAI has referred to the SVP "winning" the Swiss national elections.

From looking at news stories, it seems the SVP is polling at about 27%. In a proportional representative democracy, that means about 27% of the seats in parliament.

So if the SVP "wins" the upcoming elections in the sense of "gains more votes than any other party" it DOES NOT follow that they will have the power to put their platform into practice. They will need a coalition partner representing about 23% of the vote, which is more than any one of the other major parties do.

The only parties which would support the full anti-immigration agenda of the SVP are tiny parties or single members. So TAI, by all means cheer for your team, but don't kid yourself that a plurality of the vote equates to executive government like a US presidential race.

Of course, TAI has studied Switzerland and knows that it isn't a two party system. This talk of "winning" and "growing support" is simple cheerleading, short skirts and pom-poms. In the 2003 elections, the SVP garnered about 27% of the vote. Guess how they're polling now? Hmm, about 27%.

In fact, the SVP has been the senior partner in the ruling coalition for nearly four years. Their anti-immigration platform has not been implemented. But you know, flash the teeth and wave the pom-poms 'cos it's your team right or wrong.

So we don't derail this thread any more than it already is, meet me in the thread I'm about to start.

What, the one HotRodia locked after 29 posts?

Dude, you couldn't derail a sleepwalking rabbit. But I suppose the intention is honourable, and it makes things a bit easier for the mods. K-chunk, canned Heikoku.

Here's the real problem in this whole mess, regardless of where one leans on the Left-Right spectrum:

The SVP, a rightist political party in Switzerland, decided to hold a peaceful rally and march (by peaceful, I mean free of physical violence). Groups of leftists decided to hold their own rally, but interfered violently with the SVP's rally. Now, while both groups do have the right to assemble and march, neither should interfere to prevent the other's march, because the interferer is then taking away the interferee's right to voicing its political opinion. Also, it is physical violence by one group against another, which is criminal in itself.

I don't care about the political leanings or history of either political group in this one instance (though I would in others). That's what was presented as the facts in the situation and is all that matters now. I'm from the US, and even though I strongly disagree with both the KKK and any Communist organizations here, I would not prevent them from holding a peaceful rally, because that is their political right.

Sigh.

Official Warnings for Gift-of-God and The Atlantian Islands, issued for mutual flamebaiting in posts above.

Based on...?

Do you have some sort of inability to remain civil by the way? Do you suffer from some sort of defect, and thus are deficient in that regard?

And an Official Warning for Imperial Brazil, issued for flamebaiting in the quoted post.

NationStates Forum Moderator
HotRodia

Here's the real problem in this whole mess, regardless of where one leans on the Left-Right spectrum:

The SVP, a rightist political party in Switzerland, decided to hold a peaceful rally and march (by peaceful, I mean free of physical violence). Groups of leftists decided to hold their own rally, but interfered violently with the SVP's rally. Now, while both groups do have the right to assemble and march, neither should interfere to prevent the other's march, because the interferer is then taking away the interferee's right to voicing its political opinion. Also, it is physical violence by one group against another, which is criminal in itself.

I don't care about the political leanings or history of either political group in this one instance (though I would in others). That's what was presented as the facts in the situation and is all that matters now. I'm from the US, and even though I strongly disagree with both the KKK and any Communist organizations here, I would not prevent them from holding a peaceful rally, because that is their political right.
There's alot of truth here.