NationStates Jolt Archive

My name is Bann-ed, yet I am clearly here and not Banned.

Is this contradictory and possibly inflammatory?

/endthreadsteal


No, you haven't made a contradiction.

You said he was correct, yet he would lose.

The two are unrelated. Plenty of people who were logically in the right have lost arguments.

A friend, "Albert", asked for my opinion on an issue in my field.

I told him that I personally thought that he was in the right, but that it wasn't my job to tell him if he was right, it was my job to tell him if he would win in front of the committee. I told him I thought the he would lose, despite being right.

Another friend, "Bob", says I have contradicted myself.

He says that if I say Albert is right, but also say it is not my job to tell him he he's right, I have contradicted myself.

Have I?

no

unless it is also your job NOT to tell him that he is right.

if you see the difference.

we are more than our job descriptions and often do things that are more than the minimum requirements thereof.

Depends on the definition of 'right'.

If you're a lawyer, you may feel that your client is right yet in front of the law he's wrong.

Too vague to tell really.

My name is Bann-ed, yet I am clearly here and not Banned.

Is this contradictory and possibly inflammatory?

/endthreadsteal


No, you haven't made a contradiction.

You said he was correct, yet he would lose.

The two are unrelated. Plenty of people who were logically in the right have lost arguments.

I agree, but his premise is not that I contradicted myself when I said he would lose.

Bob claims my contradiction is that I said it was not my job to tell him he was right, yet I still told him he was right.

I think you can say something isn't your job yet you do it anyway, since there I did not claim you could only do things that are your job.

no

unless it is also your job NOT to tell him that he is right.

if you see the difference.

we are more than our job descriptions and often do things that are more than the minimum requirements thereof.

I believe I see your point. Just because it is not my job doens't mean it is forbidden, it is just an action taken outside of but not necessarily precluded by my job.

I agree, but his premise is not that I contradicted myself when I said he would lose.

Bob claims my contradiction is that I said it was not my job to tell him he was right, yet I still told him he was right.

I think you can say something isn't your job yet you do it anyway, since there I did not claim you could only do things that are your job.

Is he actually right, or only right in your opinion? If there is a question as to whether he is right, and your opinion doesn't really count anyway, it doesn't matter and you may be thought of as simply reassuring him.

If, however, your job is specifically NOT to say whether he is right or wrong (because, for instance, that knowledge might make him react in a certain way which he should not do on your say so) then you may have been wrong to tell him he was right.

Which would not make it a contradiction, merely wrong of you to have done so.

Is he actually right, or only right in your opinion? If there is a question as to whether he is right, and your opinion doesn't really count anyway, it doesn't matter and you may be thought of as simply reassuring him.

If, however, your job is specifically NOT to say whether he is right or wrong (because, for instance, that knowledge might make him react in a certain way which he should not do on your say so) then you may have been wrong to tell him he was right.

Which would not make it a contradiction, merely wrong of you to have done so.

So, had there been some kind of ethical and/or professional standard prohibiting personal commentary, making that commentary would be wrong, but the statement is at least internally consistent?

In retrospect, I think telling him he was right (which I do believe, and would vote so were I on the committee) was to reassure him, and to let him know that I didn't think it would be fair if/when he loses.

I believe I see your point. Just because it is not my job doens't mean it is forbidden, it is just an action taken outside of but not necessarily precluded by my job.

exactly

and its also a kindness to steer him in a more potentially successful direction while letting him know that you know he was right.

It's entirely possible that Albert's committee is corrupt, accepted a bribe, or is simply incompetent...

exactly

and its also a kindness to steer him in a more potentially successful direction while letting him know that you know he was right.

That's what I was after, totally.

It's entirely possible that Albert's committee is corrupt, accepted a bribe, or is simply incompetent...

Yeah, the trifecta, heh.

So, had there been some kind of ethical and/or professional standard prohibiting personal commentary, making that commentary would be wrong, but the statement is at least internally consistent?

In retrospect, I think telling him he was right (which I do believe, and would vote so were I on the committee) was to reassure him, and to let him know that I didn't think it would be fair if/when he loses.

Yes. You might have been wrong for telling him (if there was such a standard) but saying "It is not my job to say so, but I think you are right, and I also think that you are going to lose" is not a contradiction.

If you had said "My job prohibits me from telling you if you are right or wrong. You are right." then that would have been a contradiction.

Just because it's not your job doesn't mean you couldn't be telling him in your spare time.

Just because it's not your job doesn't mean you couldn't be telling him in your spare time.

Cool. We might have been on the clock, but I was trying to make the distinction that my personal feelings and my professional obligations were different.

Yes. You might have been wrong for telling him (if there was such a standard) but saying "It is not my job to say so, but I think you are right, and I also think that you are going to lose" is not a contradiction.

If you had said "My job prohibits me from telling you if you are right or wrong. You are right." then that would have been a contradiction.

I see. Perhaps when I said "Its not my job to tell you that you're right", he took that to mean that my job actively precludes making that statement, for instance when a Judge in a jury case says "Its not my job to convince the jury of one conclusion or another", they mean also that it would be inappropriate to do so.

I'll try to be more clear in the future.

I see. Perhaps when I said "Its not my job to tell you that you're right", he took that to mean that my job actively precludes making that statement, for instance when a Judge in a jury case says "Its not my job to convince the jury of one conclusion or another", they mean also that it would be inappropriate to do so.

I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Perhaps if you just add the word "unofficially" it might help... as in "It is not my job to say if you are right or wrong, but unofficially I think you are right." That would indicate that this is outside your job description, but that having reviewed the facts, you believe him to be right, while also noting that your opinion is just that, and holds no weight.

I'm a clown, but it's not my job to BE a clown.

... Wait... Yes it is! Shit! :p

Lunatic Goofballs, it has been explained to me that your existence as a clown is more of the ontological lynchpin of the universe, the giant red nose of reality about which all axioms rotate, and honk.

Hey! Don't go blaming all this shit on me! :mad:

:p

Perhaps if you just add the word "unofficially" it might help... as in "It is not my job to say if you are right or wrong, but unofficially I think you are right." That would indicate that this is outside your job description, but that having reviewed the facts, you believe him to be right, while also noting that your opinion is just that, and holds no weight.

That's not a bad idea.

I'm a clown, but it's not my job to BE a clown.

... Wait... Yes it is! Shit! :p

Lunatic Goofballs, it has been explained to me that your existence as a clown is more of the ontological lynchpin of the universe, the giant red nose of reality about which all axioms rotate, and honk.