NationStates Jolt Archive

A question inspired by the following post:

I don't think I really have an opinion beyond "two consenting adults should be allowed to marry/legalize their partnership, no matter what, if any, their biological gender is". And the "if any" comes from the fact that there are naturally occuring intergender people around, quite a lot more than many people realize.

And indeed, in the western world we generally only consider male and female. Sometimes a comedian (http://thetravisty.com/Stand_Up_Comedy/wmv/Stephen_Lynch_-_Hermaphrodite.htm) makes a nice song about his first girlfriend being an hermaphrodite, or we see some transgenders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender) in a gaypride event, but that is about it.

And yet "intersex" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) people, who cannot be clearly classified to be male or female do exist. Professor Fausto-Sterling once wrote a tongue-in-cheek article about there being five sexes (http://www.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html): male, female, merm, ferm, and herm.

On other continents furthermore the concept of a "third gender" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_sex) is much more accepted. A prominant example are the Hijra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29) from South Asia, who according to some number in the millions.

And in the animal kingdom several animals are known to truly have more than two sexes...

So.. what do the good men, women and others of nationstates think ;) ?

Intersex or intergender is a definition for all those who either fail to exhibit secondary sexual markers (such as female breasts), or whose secondary sexual markers are at odds with their genetic makeup. I'd also count in those with haploid, triploid or more 'sex genes' (XX for women and XY for men are only the most common combinations).

Plus I'm honored that my opinion actually prodded someone into creating a new thread for it... ;)

Male, Female, Intersexed, transgendered male-to-female, transgendered female-to-male, true hermaphrodite.

That's 6.

So.. what do the good men, women and others of nationstates think ;) ?

There are two, however there are some who are unsure and don't know how to look between their legs to find out. :eek:

Three primaries and two subsidiaries.

There are two, however there are some who are unsure and don't know how to look between their legs to find out. :eek:

There are humans with both sets of sexual organs. And humans with none. Humans with breasts and a penis, or a beard and a vagina. What are they ;) ?

Why would it matter to try and categorize everyone?

I wear no label, and wish not to label someone else.

People can be anything and everything they like, and I will love them as they are without questions.

2.

One with a stick and one with a hole.

11, if you're counting in unary.

I cannot answer the poll accurately:

There are three genders; masculine, feminine, and neuter.

11, if you're counting in unary.

wouldn't...unary just be an infinitely long string of zeroes if it tried to represent any number other than 0?

Like races, there is only one sex. That sex is "human".

One.

There are humans with both sets of sexual organs. And humans with none. Humans with breasts and a penis, or a beard and a vagina. What are they ;) ?

as to the last two, gynecomastia and not shaving?

There are two human genders "male" and "female". As mentioned there are exceptions but I think those are a mix of the two genders rather then a third separate gender, I'd call them "both". I don't think identifying with the opposite gender changes your biological gender unless you use surgery. There is also the third gender "neuter" or "it" that applies to stuff that doesn't reproduce through sex but not to humans.
wouldn't...unary just be an infinitely long string of zeroes if it tried to represent any number other than 0?
Well, logically yes it would but that would be useless so "unary" is instead used to refer to the practice of chalking up one mark for every thingy counted.

first of all, male and female are sexes, not gender. Genders are man and woman.

I cannot answer the poll accurately:

There are three genders; masculine, feminine, and neuter.

Your choice if that is the "other" option or the three :)

wouldn't...unary just be an infinitely long string of zeroes if it tried to represent any number other than 0?

The un- prefix stands for one, not zero. I don't know what the name for base-0 numbers would be.

The un- prefix stands for one, not zero. I don't know what the name for base-0 numbers would be.

binary is base two, and uses zeroes and ones. unary would be base 1, and use zeroes.

base-0 would just...err...well, it'd have no digits, for one...

Or...zero-its...or something...

Yeah, yeah, I heard the explanation, unary doesn't actually mean base-1 like binary means base-2 or decimal means base-10, it's more of a tally system.

binary is base two, and uses zeroes and ones. unary would be base 1, and use zeroes.

base-0 would just...err...well, it'd have no digits, for one...

Or...zero-its...or something...

decimal : unary
0 : 0
1 : 1
2 : 11
3 : 111
4 : 1111
5 : 11111

etc.

Over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND

well here goes-
There Are only two real sex's male, and female. three orientations Hetero,Bi, and Homo. This allows for about 6 combinations. As to intersex, well how about another catagory Intersex and Intrasex that would bring the grand total up to 12.
m-h-a, male-hetro-intra
f-h-a, female-hetro-intra
m-o-a, male-homo-intra
f-o-a, female-homo-intra
m-b-a, male-bi-intra
f-b-a, female-bi-intra
m-h-e, male-hetro-inter
f-h-e, female-hetro-inter
m-o-e, male-homo-inter
f-o-e, female-homo-inter
m-b-e, male-bi-inter
f-b-e, female-bi-inter

i beleave that takes care of just about everyone. though who knows what the real percentages are?
:D:p:cool:

Schwullunde;13111127']
three orientations Hetero,Bi, and Homo. This allows for about 6 combinations.

You forgot asexual.

Well, thinking logically, I suppose there are two human sex for the interest of reproduction, physical health and physical competitions. Mostly for the continuity of human race and fairness.

Other than in those cases, I don't see why should sex and gender matter. They are just there to confuse and divide peoples. They give fuels to those insecure of their own sexuality and serves as nothing more. Everyone have the same potential of or rights to being good/evil/kind/jerks/smart/stupid/active/passive/emotional/etc.

You forgot asexual.

And pansexual.

well i was counting human not creatures that reproduce by splitting but yeah the total would be 13

There are humans with both sets of sexual organs. And humans with none. Humans with breasts and a penis, or a beard and a vagina. What are they ;) ?

Do they have a Y-chromosome? If not, they're female. If so, they're male.

pansexual just means that they have all characteristics. on my list thats anything with a b in it by defination

More then I'd care to contemplate.

Yeah, yeah, I heard the explanation, unary doesn't actually mean base-1 like binary means base-2 or decimal means base-10, it's more of a tally system.

Well, according to Wikipedia, unary is base-1, but it also says it's a "non-standard positional numeral system". So we're both right.

And pansexual.

Yes.

And then that's not taking romantic orientations into account, either, if that applies. Sometimes that differs from someone's sexual orientation.

Isn't this thread about genders?

Schwullunde;13111145']well i was counting human not creatures that reproduce by splitting but yeah the total would be 13

:rolleyes:

I'm not using it in the sense of animals. I'm talking about asexuality. That's where we don't experience sexual attraction at all.

Genders genders genders genders.

No, it's a thread about genres. Personally, I like action-horror musicals.

I totally agree and cannot wait until that new movie staring Paris Hilton comes out.

Isn't this thread about genders?

Yes, but if he's going to try to sum up all the possible combinations he should work with all the possible orientations rather than just three of them.

Isn't this thread about genders?

It is about both gender (social) and sex (biological).

romantic oriantation, or whom one falls in love with would best fit into the same catagory as bi/pansexual. Though i would suggest that the % of actual romantic oriantations are .something

Yes, but if he's going to try to sum up all the possible combinations he should work with all the possible orientations rather than just three of them.

God forbid he forget one tiny piece of the pie graph.

Start a new thread. *nods*

It is about both gender (social) and sex (biological).

Shut up, this is my thread and I will decide how it shall be used. :mad:

Isn't this thread about genders?

No, it's a thread about genres. Personally, I like action-horror musicals.

Schwullunde;13111152']pansexual just means that they have all characteristics. on my list thats anything with a b in it by defination

No, pansexual means gender is not something that matters for you as far as sexual attraction is concerned. A pansexual could therefor fall for males, females, intersexuals, hermaphrodites and so on and so on - depending on how many genders you believe there are ;)

No, it's a thread about genres. Personally, I like action-horror musicals.

My god, I've warped you terribly.

God forbid he forget one tiny piece of the pie graph.

Start a new thread. *nods*

Sorry, I was just frustrated. And what would I start a new thread about?:confused:

well same diff asexual would still be 13 as it wouldn't fit into anything else correctly. but u got me there.:D

pansexual: still bi :D

And a nice observation:

Even though many replies are not entirely (/entirely not) on topic, 15 of the 35 voters have voted something other than 2. NSG seems to be open to the ideas of other cultures and interpretations of biology :)

I totally agree and cannot wait until that new movie staring Paris Hilton comes out.

My god, I've warped you terribly.

Two separate replies?

Two separate replies?

One foot before the other.

Schwullunde;13111192']well same diff asexual would still be 13 as it wouldn't fit into anything else correctly. but u got me there.:D

pansexual: still bi :D

Sorry I just get mad when people treat me like I'm an alien or some sort of inferior being. (A seahorse- thanks Ruffy :rolleyes::p)

Depends. Sometimes masculine and feminine, but many languages add neuter. In a few like J-speak, depends on whether you count respect levels as genders: they work just the same, and, really, social position is more integrated into interaction there than gender here.

23

xy, xx, xxx, xyy, xxy, x, y... and many more combinations.

Dunno how many of them are possible, but they are mere physical combinations that might occur (although not all would function well-enough for the child to survive).

On top of this, add in psychology...

as to the last two, gynecomastia and not shaving?

Uh, I think he means what gender name (for lack of better terminology) would you give those people, i.e. men with breasts and women with beards?

I personally tend to attribute such things to a relatively severe degree of hormonal imbalance.

Uh, I think he means what gender name (for lack of better terminology) would you give those people, i.e. men with breasts and women with beards?

I personally tend to attribute such things to a relatively severe degree of hormonal imbalance.

Well, you seem to have it covered already, men and women with boobs and beards. They have so much in common, they're made for each other.

Well, for starters, "how many human sexes?" and "how many human genders?" are different questions.

As far as gender goes, clearly gender exists... some people are "men" to some degree or another, and some people are "women" to some degree or another. Some people fit into other categories.

But the fact of gender is not a biological fact; it is a social construct, taking differences between human beings and turning them into basic self-concepts that only constrain us.

Yes, some people have "male" genitalia and some people have "female" genitalia. (Not that that fully describes the range in physical sexual characteristics, either....) The average person with male genitalia might tend to have certain psychological differences from the average person with female genitalia. But what does this mean for a particular person with male genitalia? Does it mean that he should think of himself, fundamentally, down to the very pronoun he uses to describe himself, as belonging to a category of "men"? For, after all, the category of "men" does not simply mean "people with male genitalia"... and every individual with male genitalia has the potential for a wide range of gender expression that may or may not fit with the other connotations of that term. (The same, of course, is true of people with female genitalia.)

I am not at all convinced that we would not be better off if we did away with the concepts of "masculine" and "feminine" entirely... especially in the context of their usage in the patriarchal oppression of women and the heterosexist oppression of gays and other gender non-conformists.

I voted "other": there are as many as we, as a society, are willing to let ourselves be.

So do those who voted "two" deny that there are people who fit into neither? Or do they simply insist that they do not constitute a gender (or genders)?

Honestly? I'm not sure.

The best answer I can think of to the question of how many human sexes there are is "as many as the number of possible sex chromosome combinations" - which would include everything from boring old XX and XY to XXX, XO, XXY, and so forth. (There would still have to be some debate as to whether extremely unlikely and almost certainly fatal combinations (like, say, XYYY) should be counted.)

As for how many genders there are, that's pretty well impossible to answer, as gender is a very, very loosely defined term, which varies significantly between societies. The only way to truly, accurately answer that would be to poll every single person in the world and ask them what gender they identify as. Since that's unlikely to happen, I'm just going to go with "several."

11, if you're counting in unary.
All counting must be done in hex.

xy, xx, xxx, xyy, xxy, x, y... and many more combinations.

Dunno how many of them are possible, but they are mere physical combinations that might occur (although not all would function well-enough for the child to survive).

On top of this, add in psychology...

Viable possibilities: XX, XY, XXY, XYY, X, XXX

Fertile possibilities: XX, XY, XYY, XXX

Marginalized probability of fertility breakdown in descent: XX, XY.

People with the XXX (will be a female, no abnormal phenotypic conditions) and XYY (will be male, tend to be above average in height, aggression, and are disproportionately highly represented in prison populations) have a higher rate of descendants being born with viable, albeit sterile genotypes, due to the presence of additional chromosones, and the arguably flawed separation mechanisms that generated their genotype. Also, though no conclusive evidence exists, biologists would surmise that their rate of natural fetal abortion is most likely higher than the rate of people with XX and XY genotypes.

All counting must be done in hex.

Hex is too ordinary.

Like most things, gender is a gradual scale from one extreme (man) to another (woman). The extremes do not really exist and everyone falls in some place between the two, and I'd be open to the notion that people move around the scale during their lives (much like what happens with sexual orientation). I dislike the way (Western) society has forced people into thinking of it in only two categories (the others only arising more recently), and that somehow being more extreme on the scale is 'better'.

Like most things, gender is a gradual scale from one extreme (man) to another (woman). The extremes do not really exist and everyone falls in some place between the two, and I'd be open to the notion that people move around the scale during their lives (much like what happens with sexual orientation). I dislike the way (Western) society has forced people into thinking of it in only two categories (the others only arising more recently), and that somehow being more extreme on the scale is 'better'.

It is not actually new - Plato for instance embraced the idea of 3 sexes and some scholars interpreted pre-Eve Adam as a hermaphrodite.
However, during the Middle Ages everyone was forced to conform to one of the two chosen roles.

None, gender is a politically incorrect notion.

There are humans with both sets of sexual organs. And humans with none. Humans with breasts and a penis, or a beard and a vagina. What are they ;) ?

mistakes.

mistakes.

God makes mistakes ;) ?
But "the result of flawed genes" can be defended, yes.

The answer is three. Female, male and then Saige Dragon. Ultra-Male.

Like races, there is only one sex. That sex is "human".

One.

WTF?

Like most things, gender is a gradual scale from one extreme (man) to another (woman). The extremes do not really exist and everyone falls in some place between the two, and I'd be open to the notion that people move around the scale during their lives (much like what happens with sexual orientation). I dislike the way (Western) society has forced people into thinking of it in only two categories (the others only arising more recently), and that somehow being more extreme on the scale is 'better'.

What's wrong with being manly? Are you saying that because I have large amounts of body hair and the ability to grow an imposing and potentially scary beard I should be outcast from an 'enlightened' society? I decry your lack of acceptance of my efforts to embrace and exult my manliness.

Less see mang...

dare is dee UNO, and dee DOS...

Si... mang... dee DOS.

There are males, females, and biological fuck-ups--mutations.

WTF?

!DO!NOT!ASK!
-especially with that particular acronym-

What's wrong with being manly? Are you saying that because I have large amounts of body hair and the ability to grow an imposing and potentially scary beard I should be outcast from an 'enlightened' society? I decry your lack of acceptance of my efforts to embrace and exult my manliness.

I didn't say anything was wrong with it, if that's what you want to do/look like. What I dislike is the assumption being more 'manly' is favourable.

So.. what do the good men, women and others of nationstates think ;) ?
I think the entire problem is that people care about this question.

Who cares how many sexes there are? Far as I'm concerned, there are as many sexes as there are human beings. Trying to force everybody to fit into narrow categories is a waste of time.

while there are of course only the two principal physical biomorphs, (of the human, and generally all earth mamels) with possibly an extremely rare third (physiological hermaphroditism), there are at least the factoral of that many perceptual genders; i.e. permutations of sexual preference, thus 2.0001 SEXES, but NINE! "genders"

(there are perhaps also sexual preferences which involve imaginary biomorphologies, including these rases the number of genders further somewhat indeterminently)

=^^=
.../\...

Well, for starters, "how many human sexes?" and "how many human genders?" are different questions.

As far as gender goes, clearly gender exists... some people are "men" to some degree or another, and some people are "women" to some degree or another. Some people fit into other categories.

But the fact of gender is not a biological fact; it is a social construct, taking differences between human beings and turning them into basic self-concepts that only constrain us.

Yes, some people have "male" genitalia and some people have "female" genitalia. (Not that that fully describes the range in physical sexual characteristics, either....) The average person with male genitalia might tend to have certain psychological differences from the average person with female genitalia. But what does this mean for a particular person with male genitalia? Does it mean that he should think of himself, fundamentally, down to the very pronoun he uses to describe himself, as belonging to a category of "men"? For, after all, the category of "men" does not simply mean "people with male genitalia"... and every individual with male genitalia has the potential for a wide range of gender expression that may or may not fit with the other connotations of that term. (The same, of course, is true of people with female genitalia.)

I am not at all convinced that we would not be better off if we did away with the concepts of "masculine" and "feminine" entirely... especially in the context of their usage in the patriarchal oppression of women and the heterosexist oppression of gays and other gender non-conformists.

I voted "other": there are as many as we, as a society, are willing to let ourselves be.

I agree with your views and wish to (figuratively speaking) subscribe to your newsletter.

As far as biological sex goes, I would say that it is simultaneously binary and non-binary. Think of the number 1, and think of the number 2. Then think of any other number that exists, whether a rational decimal like 8.25, or a completely irrational one such as pi. The 1 represents completely biologically male, and the 2 represents completely biologically female. Every other number represents some form of intersex, whether XXX, XXY, or so forth. However, I also believe that a person's biological sex should not matter in society at all beyond a purely medical standpoint, such as knowing what sexes or intersexes have, just as an example, increased rates of heart problems.

This is where gender comes in. Gender is what should matter, and it can only truly be defined only by the person it is being applied to. I have met people with vaginas who are clearly men, and people with penises who are clearly women. Ultimately, how a person sees themselves is what matters - or rather, is what should matter. If a person honestly sees himself as male, he is male, regardless of what his body might say; likewise, if a person sees herself as a woman, then she is. Period.

I cannot speak for the whole transsexual community, but I can definitely speak for some when I say that we do not wish to be identified as "transsexual women" or "transsexual men." We simply wish to be identified as "women" or "men." Attaching any other labels simply opens the door to discrimination, and in many cases, violence.

One's chromosomes do not determine it. What is between one's legs does not determine it. It is what is in the head that ultimately determines gender. Scientists have, for a while, been aware that different hormone levels in the womb can have different results post-birth. And indeed, studies have shown that the brains of intersexed and transsexual individuals are more similar, on a raw physical level, to that of the gender the person sees him or herself as, rather than what the rest of the body may say - in essence, the brain of a man in the body of someone who may seem to be both, or a woman; or the brain of a woman in the body of someone who may appear as neither, or as a man.

I will cite an example of a particular intersex disorder: Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or CAIS for short. Although people with CAIS have XY chromosomes, they develop as completely female on the outside. Breasts, a vagina (albeit normally a relatively shallow one), a female voice, et cetera. As well, people with CAIS usually - though not always, of course - self-identify as female. However, internally, they have testicles - though fairly underdeveloped, normally - where their ovaries would be, and they have no womb. Would proponents of the "genes are destiny!" crowd claim that such a person is a man? She does not see herself as one, and for that matter, most of society would not give her a second thought. In fact, beyond a blood test, an abdominal X-ray (or similar procedure), or looking inside her vagina to see if she has a cervix, there would be no way to tell that her chromosomes say she "should" be male.

And then there are of course transsexuals. Those among us who have a body of a sex that does not match their self-perceived gender, and are going through the process to correct this via hormone replacement therapy and surgeries, and in the case of MtFs, voice lessons, hair removal, and possibly breast augmentation (whether surgical or via pills).

The important thing to remember is: It is not possible to be wrong about one's own gender. This is why attempts to "fix" gender dysphoria (transsexualism) with "talk therapy" are almost universally doomed to fail; trying to convince a transsexual man that he is in fact a woman is no different than trying to convince Vin Diesel that he is a woman.

Gender is far more than the dualistic view that some may see it as, and it is not linked to biological sex as firmly as some may delude themselves into believing. Thus I cast my vote with "Other: ..."