NationStates Jolt Archive

Maybe he is an Ingsoc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc
You know, "Peace is War", "Freedom is slavery", "Ignorance is Strength".
Haha, he can only hope.

If you're that antisocial, what the hell are you doing here wasting our time?

Well, I don't really see how anybody who isn't me can ever be good, to be honest.

Newsflash! Australia is a democracy. That means the Australian government does what the voters tell them to. That means they take their direction from YOU. That means it's your fault. Either you told them to do the wrong thing, or you failed to tell them to do the right thing. Your bad, either way.

I don't vote.

He does this to kill time, or he did under his last nation anyhoo.....I'm reasonably sure its the same lad.

Well, I don't really see how anybody who isn't me can ever be good, to be honest.
That is an irrelevant comment.

I don't vote.
Then it is entirely your fault and you deserve all the blame that comes with it. See my previous remark about you failing to tell your government to do the right thing. "Silence is consent," as my high school civics teacher used to say.

Then it is entirely your fault and you deserve all the blame that comes with it. See my previous remark about you failing to tell your government to do the right thing. "Silence is consent," as my high school civics teacher used to say.

No, silence is me not being part of this country.

He does this to kill time, or he did under his last nation anyhoo.....I'm reasonably sure its the same lad.

Well, he's killed enough of my time for today. In the spirit of irrational commentary given us by Ferrous Oxide, I am now going to blame the entire problem of international Islamic terrorism on Stephen "Ferrous Oxide" Australia-Lad, and go get some lunch.

He does this to kill time, or he did under his last nation anyhoo.....I'm reasonably sure its the same lad.

You mean Potato Factory? I'm not so certain...he hasn't talked about driving people building a church out of the country just because the church had minarets...but then I don't think he'd want to give away his identity.

No, silence is me not being part of this country.

Yep, because you're an internet German......say "Ja" round the barbie a few times and Shazam!=Ubermensch

You mean Potato Factory? I'm not so certain...he hasn't talked about driving people building a church out of the country just because the church had minarets...but then I don't think he'd want to give away his identity.


Thats the one. Of course there is that tendency over the net to think that (because fools seldom differ) its the same one as last time...

No, silence is me not being part of this country.

So, logically, as you don't care about what happens to countries other than your own, it is consent.

So, logically, as you don't care about what happens to countries other than your own, it is consent.

No. I wanna be stateless. States are just a scam to burden people with individual responsibility without individual actions.

No, silence is me not being part of this country.

That's not what history will say because that's not how life works. As goes the place you live in, so will you go. Period. If you don't like how it's going, your only choice is to effect change -- either in your country or yourself. Selfishness and apathy only turn your life into a shit-sluice that ends in your own, lonely grave.

Enjoy the trip. I need a sandwich.

No. I wanna be stateless. States are just a scam to burden people with individual responsibility without individual actions.

And yet you claim that EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM is responsible for Al Qaeda.

Give me a D!
Give me an O!
Give me an U!
Give me a B!
Give me an L!
Give me an E!
Give me a T!
Give me an H!
Give me an I!
Give me an N!
Give me a K!

What do you have?

DOUBLETHINK!

So everyone except you is also not an individual? And the problem with governments is that they don't let people be individually responsible.

I'm me, everyone else is everyone else. They have their problems, and I don't care.

I'm over this. You guys can talk about your Norway. Whatever the hell that is.

No, it's just easier to judge everyone who's not me as "bad".

I'm afraid that we can never be on the same side, really.

So everyone except you is also not an individual? And the problem with governments is that they don't let people be individually responsible.

You're right. I was joking. We're not on the same side. I'm on the side of logic. You're on the side where the individual trumps all... and generalizations are acceptable too. Yup, logic vomits at the sight of these arguments.

Kill the barbaric immigrant hordes! (http://thecia.com.au/reviews/a/images/asterix-and-the-vikings-8.jpg)

No. I wanna be stateless. States are just a scam to burden people with individual responsibility without individual actions.

Weren't you just bitching about how white people don't do anything when they see the threat coming. So they are responsible for protecting other white people by acting in concert, but you're not. You realize your entire claim is wildly stupid, right? I don't mean, kind of, or a little, it's wildly stupid.

Again, so we're required to respect your individuality, but you're not required to respect that of everyone else. I treat individuals as individuals, just as you've requested. For example, I wait till someone spends pages upon pages upon pages on the internet proving beyond doubt that they can't apply logic to their own beliefs before I assess them. So what conclusion should I draw about an individual who claims that he must be treated like an individual while making broad generalizations?

Hey, I'll respect people's individuality when they start with me.

I'm me, everyone else is everyone else. They have their problems, and I don't care.

I'm over this. You guys can talk about your Norway. Whatever the hell that is.

Again, so we're required to respect your individuality, but you're not required to respect that of everyone else. I treat individuals as individuals, just as you've requested. For example, I wait till someone spends pages upon pages upon pages on the internet proving beyond doubt that they can't apply logic to their own beliefs before I assess them. So what conclusion should I draw about an individual who claims that he must be treated like an individual while making broad generalizations?

Hey, I'll respect people's individuality when they start with me.

Hehe. Deliciously idiotic. I'll do it if they do it first? So EVERY individual on the planet has to treat you like an individual before you'll do the same. What a convenient argument. Put some ludicrous requirement so you don't have to take responsibility for yourself. You gotta love people who cherish individual responsibility unless they're the individual.

Hehe. Deliciously idiotic. I'll do it if they do it first? So EVERY individual on the planet has to treat you like an individual before you'll do the same. What a convenient argument. Put some ludicrous requirement so you don't have to take responsibility for yourself. You gotta love people who cherish individual responsibility unless they're the individual.

Hey, not my fault everyone on the planet is bad natured. How can I consider people to be individuals when all they are are snarling hordes?

And yet you claim that EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM is responsible for Al Qaeda.

Give me a D!
Give me an O!
Give me an U!
Give me a B!
Give me an L!
Give me an E!
Give me a T!
Give me an H!
Give me an I!
Give me an N!
Give me a K!

What do you have?

DOUBLETHINK!

Now we just have to put in newspeak somewhere. :D
Big Brother is watching you.

Hey, not my fault everyone on the planet is bad natured. How can I consider people to be individuals when all they are are snarling hordes?

Okay, I get it. You're taking a piss. Have fun. Hopefully, you'll cut your teeth and either decide to try actually try making a real argument or you'll at least get better at taking a piss. This stuff is pretty sad.

Hey, you're the ones carrying on the topic. I told you to get back to "Norway".

Hey, not my fault everyone on the planet is bad natured. How can I consider people to be individuals when all they are are snarling hordes?

Do we feel a little paranoid today?

Hey, you're the ones carrying on the topic. I told you to get back to "Norway".

We are on topic. We are discussing xenophobia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

Im a norwegian and I have a norwegian address, tho I spend more time out of it lately. I agree the country is fucked up pretty thuroughly. But blaming the scary darkskinned people became sort of oldfashioned somewhere in the late 90s around where I live... Ive heard about the taxi "scandal", Ive heard about the rape statistics and Ive heard about the weapons trafficking...and Ive called the BS on all that.

One of the reasons immigrants are looked down on in norway is that they are often (especially pakistani) wery good at taking on some job and doing it a lot better than an norwegian could be bothered to do, and more efficient. Then they end up with more money, big cars, nice homes. Thats when the average norwegian starts lurking behind the curtains...hmm... big nice shiny mercedes...hmm..he prolly stole it...or hes a terrorist... or hes a terrorist who stole it! yeah!

The overall "thing" in norway is that; if someone has more than you they got it by cheating. If they have a different skincolor they got whatever they have by cheating anyway.

Some time ago I overheard some of my disgustingly posh fullblood norwegians talking;
"Boah, look at that BMW outside the villa up in the hill area... Im sure theyre with the al-q. damn foreigners".

Its the other way around too..

"Yeew, that green house up around the bed, it looks so uncared for, garden looks horrible and *gosh* they dont even have curtains! Damn foreigners!"

Last one allmost made me land my car in the ditch when I heard it from the rear seat. - I knew the house they were talking about, it was next to where I lived for some years. I knew the family there too - father, mother and 3 kids. They lived in Iraq until the 'Mericans hit their house as part of a carpet bombing run, killing the fathers brother, some aunt and two of the kids, and they also seased their assets. Since then they made it out and got thrown around in a beurocratic maze. They went into temporary holding camps in 5 different countries before they were planted in the house next to us. The house was left from an old lady who had lived there alone for the last 15 years and she hadnt done anything with the house in that time, when she went away the state claimed the property (no next of kin) and decided to move refugees in there. Now, 5 people were settled in a restoration project without knowing a single word of the language, anything about the climate or any money. - that was just before the snow set in. Together with my father we got communication going, my little sister was same age as some of their kids and only my stephmom was still trying to avoid the "damn foreigners" - something she stopped saying around the rest of us fast enough...but thats another story I wont get into now. Anyway. Next summer we found this horrible green paint in a garden shed and decided it was better to have *some* paint on the wooden house and they obviously couldnt afford to buy anything. We were painting out own house that summer anyway so we had all the other stuff needed. They helped us, we helped them, and two homes got painted in record time. Time went, kids started school and brought the language home, and last I heard father in the house finally got a steady job - earning as much as I do as unemployed student.

- and people dare criticizing the lack of curtains without knowing anything about the background? The reason? Without going there and offer some curtains? Damn norwegians.

Every time my bike was stolen, it was by a norwegian. When my fathers house was broken into and he was fatally wounded it was norwegians. When the kebap shop on the corner (which was run by two really nice turkish people) was burned down last month it was norwegians.


I also heard the comments quoted in the OP, about the raped women being responsible for what happened - I thought it was some sick joke until I read the newspaper article and realised it was meant seriously.

Sometimes I think the whole country is a sick joke of itself - the country of nobel prizes and countless peace treaties is also one of the worlds largest exporters and producers of highexplosive weapons. (by far the largest if you see it per capita).

Ah well, Ill end my rant. I just came back from Hip Hop world cup here in bremen and was delighted to see so many nationalities come together for a united cause.

Point, somewhere in there, was that as a born and raised norwegian from a norwegian family, I usually find that norwegians are behind allmost all the crimes being commited in norway. Or the russians (usually not from russia but poland and ex-soviet countries. but theyre referred to as russians..).

The joys of circular trolling....

No, not really. It's not my country, so it's not my problem.

Of course, HIS country isn't his problem either. Why? Because....

But in all likelihood, I'll probably just move to Israel. It's the new US.

Isreal to Bigot: Please don't import your personal problems here. We have enough of our own. So, what's so great about Isreal?

Israel is at constant war with Muslims. They'd never submit, like the West does.

No, they just run away when it gets to be tough going like Lebannon a couple of years ago. Hey! That DOES fit in with your game plan to run away from your "problems" with your own country!

I'll stop saying these things when there's world peace.

And you'll get there by doing your utmost to ensure that nothing constructive that might acheive that goal is undertaken. But hey! Isreal is for you! So, what's stopping you?

I wanna be stateless. States are just a scam to burden people with individual responsibility without individual actions.

Oh. So you don't want to be a part of Israel either. You like their attitude but don't really wan tto belong. Why? Oh, then Israel's problems might become your problems and you don't have anywhere else in mind to run away to? So, if you respect Isreal's chutzpah, I guess you like Israelis as individuals too? I mean, you'll have to live with them right?

Hey, I'll respect people's individuality when they start with me.

Oh. They're great! You want to live there! Except you don't. And you don't respect them individually. Wow, they're gonna LOVE you!

Hey, not my fault everyone on the planet is bad natured. How can I consider people to be individuals when all they are are snarling hordes?

Speaking as a card-carrying member, obviously. Not to mention trollish agitator for the cause.

This has always concerned me. Both the ever amusing Greater Trostia, and Gravelen, claim to be Lawyers

LoL, I've never claimed to be a lawyer. Nor a Lawyer.

And really, I wasn't even talking at you, so I think the only reason you randomly mentioned me was because your long-standing resentment at my ability to differentiate between reality and your schizophrenic breaks from it.

Oh, and, as ever, TAL is right. Islam is a cancer within the west; as, for that matter, are most non-skilled, mass populations of migrants.

The real cancer is neo-fascist douchebaggery, which sadly you seem compelled to display at every opportunity. Wake me up when you start burning books again.

Hey, not my fault everyone on the planet is bad natured. How can I consider people to be individuals when all they are are snarling hordes?

You're claiming everyone but you is bad? And, worse, that you, willing to kill people, are a paragon of good?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity

Oh, I'm not saying they just surrendered like cowards. I'm saying they didn't actually know there was a war. Well, they did, but they thought was still WWI. They'd rock up to each other and go "Hey homies! How we doing against the Kaiser?" all while the Wehrmacht marched through the Arc de Triumph.
Erm...

Did you basically not go to school or something? Perhaps you just massively failed history?

Simple- if the population of the host country decides that it does not want immigrants from a certain country or region, or no immigrants at all, then their determination is final. No one has a "right" to immigrate to another country without the permission of that country.
Let's assume for argument's sake that you're American. Would you be okay if you couldn't leave your state because the population of your destination disagrees with you moving there? What about the next city? What about moving outside your suburb? Or outside your house?

At what point does being outvoted no longer trump your right to things, like moving from one point in time and space to another point?

Why should free immigration be the default stance?
Because of what I just said. You are by nature capable of moving from A to B. In fact, it seems that humans have done so since they first popped up. You moving doesn't hurt anyone, in the vast majority of cases.

So exactly why is restriction of being able to move a default stance? Is that your normal position on rights, that the default stance is restriction, and we're graciously allowed to do some things if the majority will let us? And if you're tempted to say yes, does that mean there is no such thing as a human rights violation? Does that mean getting 7,000 lashes for being gay is not a problem - afterall, the default stance is restriction, it just so happens that in our countries the majority violates the default stance of existence and allows gays to go without punishment. And I don't want to Godwin anything, but the whole Holocaust argument could also be made that way.

It's their frackin' country, they can keep out whoever they want, just like I can keep people out of my house for any or no reason.
But you own your house. No Japanese person owns Japan. And even if you can construct some sort of complicated legal nicety to pretend that collective property belonging to 120 million people is realistic and would allow some of the 120 million to outvote the others on the use of their own property - no one earned Japan through their work or investment. So whatever way this ownership came about is illegitimate.

-snip-
Dude, I realise you played Bioshock and it had some sort of impact on you. I quite appreciate the fact that objectivism has found a popular outlet to become more well-known (if not popular).

But if you really want to be an objectivist, I suggest you start a seperate thread and the resident population will try and explain things to you. Ayn Rand said "There's no such thing as a contradiction; if it appears to be so, check your premises." You've been contradicting yourself all the way through your participation in this thread.

We'll need to work on your premises, I think.

Hey, you're the ones carrying on the topic. I told you to get back to "Norway".
Aye, we'd all just be happier if you were given a mental kicking about is all.

Hey, you're the ones carrying on the topic. I told you to get back to "Norway".

"Norway"? More like Snoreway! It's a boring place. After all, the lions and tigers are only in kenya, not in norway... :)

"Norway"? More like Snoreway! It's a boring place. After all, the lions and tigers are only in kenya, not in norway... :)

I love how he puts Norway in quotes. Seriously, he must be taking a piss. I don't care how young he is, he's requiring us to believe his knowledge of the world comes from the back covers of video games.

I love how he puts Norway in quotes. Seriously, he must be taking a piss. I don't care how young he is, he's requiring us to believe his knowledge of the world comes from the back covers of video games.

Well it made sense to me. 'Norway' being an abbreviated way of saying 'the original topic involving a discussion of rape and immigration in norway'. Or something.

Well it made sense to me. 'Norway' being an abbreviated way of saying 'the original topic involving a discussion of rape and immigration in norway'. Or something.

It looks more to me like, "Go ahead and discuss Norway *fingers make quote motion* if that is its real name."

It looks more to me like, "Go ahead and discuss Norway *fingers make quote motion* if that is it's real name."

"This alleged "scandiavian" country you all are on about."

Norway? More like Snoreway!

~Merric

Norway? More like Snoreway!

~Merric

Um, you realize that was poster four posts ago, yes?

It looks more to me like, "Go ahead and discuss Norway *fingers make quote motion* if that is its real name."

Maybe it was in speech marks because we'd moved away from a discussion of Norwegian immigration and onto certain peoples bigotry. But meh.

Maybe it was in speech marks because we'd moved away from a discussion of Norwegian immigration and onto certain peoples bigotry. But meh.

It seems that, from the start, Norway was just a springboard onto bigotry. Let's not delude ourselves as to what we've been discussing...

It seems that, from the start, Norway was just a springboard onto bigotry. Let's not delude ourselves as to what we've been discussing...

Well, yeah. That was because there wasn't much to discuss about Norway, as the whole OP got ripped to shreds in the first couple of pages. It could have turned into a discussion about flawed statistics, but this is NSG you know?

Um, you realize that was poster four posts ago, yes?

*Is ahead of my time* :p

Maybe it was in speech marks because we'd moved away from a discussion of Norwegian immigration and onto certain peoples bigotry. But meh.
Norwegian immigration policy can be an interesting topic, especially concidering how different the problems are in Norway, Scandinavia, and indeed most of the European mainland, compared to the oft-debated US policies.

But alas, the OP was just a xenophobic rant not even bothering to adress the issue ut oretended to be concerned about, namely immigration. So sad.

This despite the fact that Norway, a nation of peace and home to the Nobel Peace Prize


...eh, you, I'm afraid to say? Or do you mean that Norway can't be called a Country of peace while another Scandinavian country can?

I wasn't trying to put down down Norway...I was saying that some guy got Norway confused with Sweden...the ACTUAL home of the Nobel peace prize

This has nothing to with objectivism. I'd call this my own philosophy, except I'm not smart enough to be a philosopher. I think that I'm the only individual, and everybody else forms the collective entity "not me". Likewise, to you, you are the only individual, and I and everybody else is "not you".
The way of the iron skull?

Dude, I realise you played Bioshock and it had some sort of impact on you. I quite appreciate the fact that objectivism has found a popular outlet to become more well-known (if not popular).

But if you really want to be an objectivist, I suggest you start a seperate thread and the resident population will try and explain things to you. Ayn Rand said "There's no such thing as a contradiction; if it appears to be so, check your premises." You've been contradicting yourself all the way through your participation in this thread.

We'll need to work on your premises, I think.

This has nothing to with objectivism. I'd call this my own philosophy, except I'm not smart enough to be a philosopher. I think that I'm the only individual, and everybody else forms the collective entity "not me". Likewise, to you, you are the only individual, and I and everybody else is "not you".

The way of the iron skull?

If I'm not smart enough to be a Western philosopher, I'm definitely not smart enough to be a Chinese one.

This has nothing to with objectivism. I'd call this my own philosophy, except I'm not smart enough to be a philosopher. I think that I'm the only individual, and everybody else forms the collective entity "not me". Likewise, to you, you are the only individual, and I and everybody else is "not you".

Uh, you realize that in order to be remotely logical about it you have to accept that you are going to held responsible for things you didn't have anything to do with in exactly the same way you hold other people responsible. You can't be a racist and xenophobe and bitch about generalizations. It makes you look stupid.

Uh, you realize that in order to be remotely logical about it you have to accept that you are going to held responsible for things you didn't have anything to do with in exactly the same way you hold other people responsible. You can't be a racist and xenophobe and bitch about generalizations. It makes you look stupid.

I don't hold anybody responsible for anything. They just happen to be opposed to me automatically.

This just isn't true. We norwegians get drunk and rape each other. In norway you are far more likely to get raped by your friend than by some muslim hiding in the bushes.
The shootouts are all linked to drug trafficing. There is a big marked for recreational drugs since we're all rich hedonisitic people.
The norwegian government has purposefully slowed integretion and made it hard for immigrants to get into the system thereby fueling racist tendencies in the populace. It's classic divide and conquer.
Norway is a leading exporter of high tech missle technology and surveilance technologies. Alfred Nobel decided that the peace price should be given out in Oslo because at the time when he was alive Norway had no foreign policy, we were like Switzerland. Now, with norwegian special forces doing hit and run attacks in afghanistan and norwegian contractors building the cages in Quantanamo Bay, i doubt Mr Nobel would make the same descision today.
Goverment uses fear to gain control.
Norway has a happy system of statecontrolled capitalism. The Norwegian state is the wealthiest capitalist in Norway. There is no free press in Norway. Certain issues are never discussed. The kind of unfounded claims that heads this forum thread dominate the debate forums.

I don't hold anybody responsible for anything. They just happen to be opposed to me automatically.

So you hate Muslims, Catholics, South Africans, the British, Albanians, New Guineans, Mozambicans, Portuguese, and everyone that isn't you equally?

Y'know, in order to have you make a tiny bit of sense.

I don't hold anybody responsible for anything. They just happen to be opposed to me automatically.

You know, animals tend to think like that. However, people who cannot distinguish between other people are considered to have a disorder. Are you trying to tell us about said disorder? Or is it possible you're just backing down because you got your ass handed to you?

So you hate Muslims, Catholics, South Africans, the British, Albanians, New Guineans, Mozambicans, Portuguese, and everyone that isn't you equally?

Y'know, in order to have you make a tiny bit of sense.

Sure, why not?

Uhh, I sort of AM an animal.

This is probably the lamest way I've ever seen for someone to try and make themselves feel better after losing an argument. Well tied for the lamest because you're not the first person I've seen try to make it seem like they didn't so much lose as quit playing.

You know, animals tend to think like that. However, people who cannot distinguish between other people are considered to have a disorder. Are you trying to tell us about said disorder? Or is it possible you're just backing down because you got your ass handed to you?

Uhh, I sort of AM an animal.

Uhh, I sort of AM an animal.

An irrational one? Because what he meant was IRRATIONAL animals think like you do.

I don't hold anybody responsible for anything. They just happen to be opposed to me automatically.
Why didn't you listen to yourself when you said you were too stupid to successfully bullshit like this?

You had a brief moment of lucidity going there. Shame to waste it and all.

I wasn't trying to put down down Norway...I was saying that some guy got Norway confused with Sweden...the ACTUAL home of the Nobel peace prize

Well, he wasn't wrong about that. Even if the Nobel prize originates in Sweden, the actual home of the Nobel Peace price has always been Norway. It's always been given out in Oslo, Norway...

Well, he wasn't wrong about that. Even if the Nobel prize originates in Sweden, the actual home of the Nobel Peace price has always been Norway. It's always been given out in Oslo, Norway...

Only ONE is handed out in Oslo, the others are handed out in Stockholm

With the exception of the peace prize, which is handed out in Oslo, Norway, they are all handed out in Stockholm at an annual ceremony on December 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize

Only ONE is handed out in Oslo, the others are handed out in Stockholm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize

With the exception of the peace prize, which is handed out in Oslo
Yes, as I said: Norway is the home of the Peace Prize. The other Nobel prizes belong in Sweden. So he was correct about that.

OK, since the OP quickly abandoned the thread as people started looking closer at his post, and nobody has bothered to adress the critical comments, I feel safe to say that this thread is over and done with.

So I'll just lean back in my big, comfy chair here at the club, take a sip of my expensive Louis XIII cognac, light my havanna cigar, and go back to guffawing with the other members of my secret society. :cool:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/Gentlelol.jpg



At least the thread got past 20 pages, that's got to count for something :)


http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/motivator3484960.jpg

Yes, as I said: Norway is the home of the Peace Prize. The other Nobel prizes belong in Sweden. So he was correct about that.

Okay your right...I missed the word "Peace" and just read "Nobel Prize"

OK, since the OP quickly abandoned the thread as people started looking closer at his post, and nobody has bothered to adress the critical comments, I feel safe to say that this thread is over and done with.

So I'll just lean back in my big, comfy chair here at the club, take a sip of my expensive Louis XIII cognac, light my havanna cigar, and go back to guffawing with the other members of my secret society. :cool:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/Gentlelol.jpg



At least the thread got past 20 pages, that's got to count for something :)


http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/motivator3484960.jpg

Have you had Louis Tres? I don't like cognac but this stuff is like drinking sex.

I'm not done...I just have a life and was busy for the weekend...but now I just got back to my university from the airport...so...back.:)

We norwegians get drunk and rape each other.
BTW, quoted for the lolz.

I'm not done...I just have a life and was busy for the weekend...but now I just got back to my university from the airport...so...back.:)

Dude, seriously, know when enough is enough. Your OP has been destroyed, you've posted arguments yourself that refute the OP. There is a lick of it worth saving. Why would you return to continue this? You really like losing an argument that much?