NationStates Jolt Archive

Brainwashing seems to be a favorite phrase for talking about cults or defending psychopaths, but I doubt its existence, or at least its efficiency? Does anyone here have something to prove or disprove it?
Just to clarify: when I say "brainwashing" I mean "making someone adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible pressure." I do not consider teaching Communist propaganda in school to be brainwashing. However, kidnapping an American soldier and hypnotizing him to kill a senator, a la The Manchurian Candidate, would, if it were possible, be brainwashing.

EDIT: The APA has neither denied or accepted brainwashing. There is an article about it here (http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov02/cults.html). I haven't finished reading it, but it seems informative.

Patty Hearst.

Patty Hearst.

But I don't know if she was actually brainwashed. Is there any medical evidence?

The Communist Party of China certainly thought it was brainwashing people in the 50s.

I'd have to say so, given the success of cults in controlling their members and exhorting them to do dangerous or stupid things.

technically speaking, thats not so much brainwashing as it is hypnotism. As for hypnotism, theres a lot to support its existence. Today people are using hypnotic therapy to break their nicotine addiction, or rid them of their fear to fly. Down the street from my place theres an accredited phychiatrist and psychologist, who offers remedial hypnotism. Of course, everyones also heard of the different party tricks people pull off with hypnosis, such as getting people to act like a chicken. These have less of a wide acceptance of credibility, but if this sort of hypnosis is possible, then making someone act like a chicken cant be too different from making them carry out an assassination.

As for the kind of thing you're talking about; implanting an action into someone's brain which they are not at all aware of and later triggering that action, causing them to act it out without conscious thought, has been proven though on a much smaller scale.

Ever heard of Pavlov's Dog? Pavlov was a scientist and famous psychologist, who for research purposes rang a bell while feeding his dog. After a few months of the treatment, Pavlov eventually conditioned the dog so that, when he rang his bell, it would salivate without the influence of food. Now this is on a much smaller scale than programming someone to carry out an assassination, but the basic principles are still there.

Now combining both elements together, perhaps it could be possible to plant a trigger in an individual's mind, which sends them into a state of hypnosis, and then make the individual do a certain task, such as an assassination. I dont believe there are any recorded cases, but i think theres enough to support a possibility.

It only works on certain people I reckon. I think if you were deprived of sleep food etc. I reckon you could be brainwashed. Also I think religious people are less likely to be brainwashed, even if some people say religion is brainwashing.

I'd have to say so, given the success of cults in controlling their members and exhorting them to do dangerous or stupid things.

I suppose. But again, is it really brainwashing?
I guess the real question is, "Is it possible to force people to think in a way they would not normally?" For all I know, the people who joined Heaven's Gate were like that before it began, and they just fit it.
Also I think religious people are less likely to be brainwashed, even if some people say religion is brainwashing.
Why do you think that? I don't know if I disagree or not, but I'm curious what your reasoning is.

It only works on certain people I reckon. I think if you were deprived of sleep food etc. I reckon you could be brainwashed. Also I think religious people are less likely to be brainwashed, even if some people say religion is brainwashing.

Interesting. What evidence do you have to support this?

Hypnotism can not be used to force anyone to do something that they would not normally do. This has been proven time and time again. Even Mythbusters did an episode on it.

I do not consider teaching Communist propaganda in school to be brainwashing.

I do. What do you think about the high profit business of Scientology, would you count that as brainwashing?

I suppose. But again, is it really brainwashing?
I guess the real question is, "Is it possible to force people to think in a way they would not normally?" For all I know, the people who joined Heaven's Gate were like that before it began, and they just fit it.

Well, actually, one of the big signs someone is in a cult is a dramatic shift in their behavior upon joining the organization. Usually, most people who join cults change markedly after becoming members; that's the main way others are tipped off in the first place.

Also, given the difficulty of rescuing people from cults, I'd say "brainwashing" is a pretty accurate description of what they do.

I do not consider teaching Communist propaganda in school to be brainwashing.

It can be, if you suppress other views and threaten people in to adhering to the party line under fear of punishment and death. Indoctrination and brainwashing aren't necessarily that far apart; the main difference would probably be that indoctrination is easier to break and reverse than brainwashing.

Hypnotism can not be used to force anyone to do something that they would not normally do. This has been proven time and time again. Even Mythbusters did an episode on it.

Yeah, but at the same time, if I remember correctly, you can be subtle enough to change their mind about what they want first.

I do. What do you think about the high profit business of Scientology, would you count that as brainwashing?

That questions vague, so I guess my answer is: it depends. If a Scientologist walked up to my front door, handed me some "literature" and I became a convert, then no, that would not be brainwashing. However, if when the Scientologist handed me the pamphlets I insulted his faith so that later he used the Power of Xenu to force me to believe, then yes.

The reason I wouldn't consider propaganda in schools to be brainwashing is because it is shaping the minds of children, not reshaping. I guess it would be "brain-sewing." The main thing brainwashing does, I believe, is force someone to believe what they would never believe without its effect.

Interesting. What evidence do you have to support this?


No evidence, just a theory really :p. I just think that if you have proper faith in a religion where there are no facts proving its existence, yet you still believe this God is real, then having that kind of mental ability will sorta protect your brain from interference. It must take a lot of brain-power and will to believe in something so big with no proof.

Im a bit tired so sorry if that makes no sense
:headbang:

I don't know if I believe in brainwashing as a way to make anyone believe in something they would never, ever believe... there are ways to manipulate peoples views and make them believe what you want, but I'm pretty sure they only work on people who're pretty weak minded to begin with... I don't really believe anyone could brainwash me but then noone has tried it (and I hope noone ever does)

I think you would first need to lose all sense of self before you can truly be brainwashed... but I don't really know.

No evidence, just a theory really :p. I just think that if you have proper faith in a religion where there are no facts proving its existence, yet you still believe this God is real, then having that kind of mental ability will sorta protect your brain from interference. It must take a lot of brain-power and will to believe in something so big with no proof.

Im a bit tired so sorry if that makes no sense
:headbang:

Wait, so people believing in something with absolutely no evidence will be more likely to be skeptical of claims that people present to them? :confused:

Also, a nit-pick, theory is really the wrong word there. Part of a theory is that it has supporting evidence (or, at least, survives repeated attempts to disprove it). Hypothesis might be closer to what you're trying to say.

Also, a nit-pick, theory is really the wrong word there. Part of a theory is that it has supporting evidence (or, at least, survives repeated attempts to disprove it). Hypothesis might be closer to what you're trying to say.
A nit-pick: no, not really. If this were a scientific theory, you would be perfectly correct. But the definition in my dictionary, and the one people normally use in day-to-day English is "a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained." I don't know what these "general principles" are, but the way it is used here is not the same as a scientific theory.

A nit-pick: no, not really. If this were a scientific theory, you would be perfectly correct. But the definition in my dictionary, and the one people normally use in day-to-day English is "a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained." I don't know what these "general principles" are, but the way it is used here is not the same as a scientific theory.

Alba made a scientifically testable(assuming an agreed upon definition of brainwashing were agreed upon for the purposes of the study) claim. Therefore, it is proper to use the scientific terminology.

Alba made a scientifically testable(assuming an agreed upon definition of brainwashing were agreed upon for the purposes of the study) claim. Therefore, it is proper to use the scientific terminology.

True. However, he did not claim his theory to be scientific. If he thinks it is, than he's wrong, unless he has evidence he isn't showing us.
I have a theory that people prefer blue M&M's over red ones. This is scientifically testable, but my theory is certainly not scientific, and I'm not presenting it as such.

True. However, he did not claim his theory to be scientific. If he thinks it is, than he's wrong, unless he has evidence he isn't showing us.
I have a theory that people prefer blue M&M's over red ones. This is scientifically testable, but my theory is certainly not scientific, and I'm not presenting it as such.

Then I'd argue that, though you colloquially call it a theory, you are, technically, wrong. And that's what nit-picking is all about: technicallities.

Well, actually, one of the big signs someone is in a cult is a dramatic shift in their behavior upon joining the organization. Usually, most people who join cults change markedly after becoming members; that's the main way others are tipped off in the first place.

Also, given the difficulty of rescuing people from cults, I'd say "brainwashing" is a pretty accurate description of what they do.

Yes exactly. People who join cults are often emotionally fragile and easily led to being with, take these people away from their family and friends and put them on a ranch somewhere and it will happen.

Also, cult leaders are very charismatic and speak with great conviction. Everything in the cult is GOOD, everything outside the cult is BAD, if you begin to have doubts you aren't a true believer (and therefore evil).

So no matter how much info you give to cult victims about the organisation they joined, the victim still has to be "de-programmed" and that takes a long time.

no.

Such things do not exist.

However, I would like you to have this brainslug.

You wear it.

On your head.

/zombie

Brainwashing seems to be a favorite phrase for talking about cults or defending psychopaths, but I doubt its existence, or at least its efficiency? Does anyone here have something to prove or disprove it?

I. Do. Not. Remember.

Then I'd argue that, though you colloquially call it a theory, you are, technically, wrong. And that's what nit-picking is all about: technicallities.
I think you mean: technicalities. :)

Okay, I'm done if you are. Pick just one more nit and then lets stop.

Yes. Brainwashing is real. The abundance of bigoted, religion-hating liberals (I know, I know; not all liberals are anti-religious bigots, except for those on NSG, and I acknowledge it) on NSG proves it.

Yes. Brainwashing is real. The abundance of bigoted, religion-hating liberals (I know, I know; not all liberals are anti-religious bigots, except for those on NSG, and I acknowledge it) on NSG proves it.

... define liberal here please...

... define liberal here please...

Wears very little clothing, eats only the rarest of vegetables, promotes the throwing of money into wishing wells, tends to run from battle screaming communist mantra, and is usually seen riding a donkey.

Wears very little clothing, eats only the rarest of vegetables, promotes the throwing of money into wishing wells, tends to run from battle screaming communist mantra, and is usually seen riding a donkey.

Oh THOSE liberals, yeah... they're buggers, damned dirty buggers!
And they snub my turnips.... :(

Oh THOSE liberals, yeah... they're buggers, damned dirty buggers!
And they snub my turnips.... :(

Just line your garden with pages from the Holy Bible. They will start ranting and froth at the mouth enough to choke on their own saliva. It is a proven method for saving them turnips.

Just line your garden with pages from the Holy Bible. They will start ranting and froth at the mouth enough to choke on their own saliva. It is a proven method for saving them turnips.

But... then my precious garden will smell of Jesus... I mean... eew!

But... then my precious garden will smell of Jesus... I mean... eew!

The Scent of the Savior. Or the Turnout of your Turnips.

You decide.

The Scent of the Savior. Or the Turnout of your Turnips.

You decide.

It's a fair choice I suppose... Eau de Saviour it is then...

*begins the littering process*

*sniff-sniff*

Quite pleasant actually...

you can't scientifically prove or disprove brainwashing because its in an area we know little about (pretty much all of psychology save biological) kind of like how Freud can't be scientifically proven or shock therapy (which works the same as hitting your TV screen)

but there is a hell of allot of proof out there, you act the way you do on a similar method otherwise you could never cope with modern society for example

But... then my precious garden will smell of Jesus... I mean... eew!

"Stupid weeds! I keep pulling them up, and three days later..."

"Stupid weeds! I keep pulling them up, and three days later..."

R:DFL!

Hitler Youth would be a prime example of brainwashing...IMO

I've just read a big book on this with lots of long words so I'd consider myself quite the expert if I could remember but half of what I read.

Essentially, the idea of implanting a thought in someone's head in order to make them carry out a specific act later on is highly unlikely and has never been shown.

Being a major influence on someone and, to some extent, modifying their beliefs - or at least, influencing them to act in ways that, if they placed serious rational thought to it, they would not do, is possible as shown by certain cults among others, to be honest, we hold some beliefs passed down by parents or culture that, given rational thought, may not make any real sense.

The flip side is that people can take on beliefs themselves off suggestion. A good example was a father who admitted to horrific abuse of his daughters after those daughters accused him of such abuse - he could not believe they were lying and therefore convinced himself he must have done this, to the point of elaborating on specific occasions - have we not all wondered on occasion 'did I really do that, could I have done it?' when a general air of suspicion is around.
*note: this area is closely related to hypnotism - the power of suggestion.

Using either/or drugs, isolation or outright torture can certainly get people to say and do things against their will, but this is not so much brainwashing as outright force.

Finally, in terms of Pavlov's theory - the interesting side note is that in his experiments, Pavlov noted that shock over-rode the conditioning - this was shown when the basement in which he performed his experiments flooded. On saving the dogs, none of them exhibited the conditioning any longer.

Regardless, Pavlov's work doesn't really work to the complicated extent that would fit under brainwashing.

Of course, the ultimate question is whether JH Oswald was brainwashed by the Soviets to kill JFK :)

Soylent Green!

It could till a certain degree.

You can condition people like any other animal.

You can influence people by deceiving and propaganda techniques.

Under certain circumstance you can change someone who's thinking 'white' to one who's thinking 'black'.

But I don't think that one can 'convert' any one in a member of cavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wildmeerschweinchen-06.jpg)-f*ck club.

Interesting. What evidence do you have to support this?

I'm curious as well, especially given the bolded text.

It's a fair choice I suppose... Eau de Saviour it is then...

*begins the littering process*

*sniff-sniff*

Quite pleasant actually...Consider accenting them with a little fig oil while you're at it. Just awesome.

hypnotismWe are exposed daily to "subliminal messaging", this is a technique used in visual and audio commercials, where during a normal commercial, you are unconsciously exposed to a very short clip (fraction of a second) of a brand name or product, inserted in the audio or imagery of that commercial. It was widely used in the seventies and eighties but there are certain laws in certain countries which do refrain the use of this procedure. This was very popular during children's programs because they are more susceptible to subliminal messaging. It is a form of hypnotism which if it is not approved by the recipient should be illegal.

I believe that brainwashing is possible, at least theoretically. My definition of brainwashing is altering the way a person thinks. This is different from altering what a person believes because although the person believes something different now, the belief was altered a bit to fit a person's thinking without altering the person's thinking.

My theory (oh, sorry. hypothesis. Sorry to offend the scientific grammar police. Please don't strap me into your pathetic chair and make me ride the lightning) is that brainwashing works best after the mind is conditioned. Isolation removes outside influences that previously shaped the person's worldview. Starvation deprives the brain of important nutrients, weakening the brain and, therefore, mind. This can work because it forces the body to sacrifice thinking to save the vital functions, such as breathing. Abuse puts stress on the already weakened mind. The mind is now weak and malluable, like metal that has been heated a bit.

Try this link:

Soviet Art of Brainwashing - A Synthesis of the Russian Textbook on Psychopolitics (1955) pdf (http://www.mininova.org/tor/302180)

This is another link of the complete book:

http://whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/brain-manual.html

What Wiki is saying about this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-Washing_%28book%29

It's rather old, but a cult book in the brainwash world. :)

And now, all of you, listen, listen carefully, listen, listen.

Send me $1000.

It's good to send me $1000.

It's good. Very good. Send it to me. It's good. $1000

Yes Brainwashing does exist. It is different than hypnotism. I read two books on the subject that examined Communist camps in China and their brainwashing techniques, as well as various cults.

The process is surprisingly similar, and so the people carrying out the brainwashing often know what they are doing. If I could find my books I would tell you an outline of the steps.

Most of the world's military to one extent or another are brainwashed, though not so much in for example the United States as much as it is capable of other nations. It is not so hard for instance in some countries when someone has no access to free literature or free thinking to brainwash them with new values.

The process consists of breaking the person down over time. It is important to keep them isolated from friends, or family so the most effective brainwashing takes place in camps or an isolated setting (Such as many cults and military do). Then lack of hunger or exhaustion are used to make the mind more susceptible, as well as an repeated regular schedule. Doing repetitive actions also seems to cause the mind to become more susceptible, so you will see this used either in the form of simple repetitive tasks or memorizing literature.

Slowly the goal is to break down the person's old value systems, tearing them down through the exhaustive part. This is really what boot camp is all about for instance. Follow this up and rebuild them with a new value system.

If someone is forced to repeat or read something day after day, do repetitive tasks, you can see where they will get stuck in habits.

R:DFL!

Actually, that was a
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/Thread.jpg
moment.

Yes Brainwashing does exist. It is different than hypnotism. I read two books on the subject that examined Communist camps in China and their brainwashing techniques, as well as various cults.

Uhm, according my info, those communist brainwash camps were urban legends.

Btw, 90.000 of the 170.000 Korean and Chinese POW's didn't return to their country as well. It seems that people forget that one....

Indoctrination and brainwashing are not the same.

And now, all of you, listen, listen carefully, listen, listen.



Uhm .... all i'm hearing is the ferrets, Caddyshack in the background, my fingers clicking keys, and the myriad voices all competing for a little attention swimming around in my head.
And Richard Nixon's in there somewhere too.

Indoctrination and brainwashing are not the same.

Exactamundo my little Belgian friend - this is a fundamental point.

Uhm .... all i'm hearing is the ferrets, Caddyshack in the background, my fingers clicking keys, and the myriad voices all competing for a little attention swimming around in my head.
And Richard Nixon's in there somewhere too.

Listen. Listen. Don't give the $1000 to Nixon. Nixon bad. Bad. Nixon. Nixon is bad.
Listen. Listen. $1000. Give it to me. It's good. It's good for you.
$1000 send it over. You're good.

Listen. Listen. Don't give the $1000 to Nixon. Nixon bad. Bad. Nixon. Nixon is bad.
Listen. Listen. $1000. Give it to me. It's good. It's good for you.
$1000 send it over. You're good.

Must......pay.......thirty-seventh........President........$2000.

Yeah, it is real. And quite easy to use, too. If we avoid to talk about Nazism and its skills in blinding people (which is not exactly brainwashing, since it was acted against people who wanted to be deceived) there is a small experiment which is really interesting. They took some people to a fake science experiment, whose issue was: how long can people resist pain? These people had to turn a lever to start an increasing electroshock against someone who was held in another room. The ones in the room were actors, who screamed more loudly as the "shock" grew stronger, so that they cuold be heard by the ones holding the lever. A scientist stood near the lever, pretending to look at the "shocked" and giving orders. No one refused to go on with what was supposed to be a torture. This is brainwashing: to make people who think something to be wrong DO what they think to be wrong, without being forced to it.

Yes Brainwashing does exist. It is different than hypnotism. I read two books on the subject that examined Communist camps in China and their brainwashing techniques, as well as various cults.

Was one of those books written by Edward Hunter?

He was a CIA agent and journalist. In those time America was seeking desperatly for an answer why American POW prefered the 'bad' communist China/Korea/Russia above the American Dream.

So our Edward 'found' a solution: Brainwashed!

I believe he invented the therm.

It was about 21 (!) American POWs who didn't return. And they were not brainwashed at all. (Btw, compare the 21 with the 90.000 Koreans and Chinese POWs, were those brainwashed as well?)

Those 21 were already weird birds before they were send to war.

There were about 5000 American POWs... So what's 21 people?

Listen. Listen. Don't give the $1000 to Nixon. Nixon bad. Bad. Nixon. Nixon is bad.But didn't he do something like ... oh yeah, "Moral Majority" endeavour? That's not worth $1000? Even for a new suit?
http://images.wikia.com/wikiality/images/thumb/200px-Futurama-203-nixon.jpg
Feed my head?
Instead of ...
http://bkmarcus.com/blog/images/prez/NixonShrugged.jpg

Listen. Listen. $1000. Give it to me. It's good. It's good for you.

But is it good for the whales?

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/e/e3/George&Gracie.jpg/600px-George&Gracie.jpg

Yeah, it is real. And quite easy to use, too. If we avoid to talk about Nazism and its skills in blinding people (which is not exactly brainwashing, since it was acted against people who wanted to be deceived) there is a small experiment which is really interesting. They took some people to a fake science experiment, whose issue was: how long can people resist pain? These people had to turn a lever to start an increasing electroshock against someone who was held in another room. The ones in the room were actors, who screamed more loudly as the "shock" grew stronger, so that they cuold be heard by the ones holding the lever. A scientist stood near the lever, pretending to look at the "shocked" and giving orders. No one refused to go on with what was supposed to be a torture. This is brainwashing: to make people who think something to be wrong DO what they think to be wrong, without being forced to it.

No it is not. Not even close.

It's all about blind accepting authority.

There was a ‘doctor’ (That doctor, near the lever, looked like a typical doctor and he commanded to use the lever and he encouraged the people to do it.

The people trusted him, ‘cause he was a ‘doctor’. And if a doctor says ‘you can do it’ then it is safe.

Many people that handled the lever were in doubt but with some motivation of the doctor they did what was been told by an authority.

'Real' brainwashing isn't easy at all. And some scientists even doubt if it is possible at all.

I have had a friend go through a rigorous self-help seminar and it functioned as a sort of re-formatting for the brain. She came back completely different.

Later I had a girlfriend go to a camp that essentially did the same thing and it ruined the relationship.

I have learned from first-hand experience that there are two things necessary to change around the head, what i would call forms of brainwashing. The first is a willing participant (who at the time probably does not realize the magnitude of the thing) and a bit of isolated time.

No it is not. Not even close.

It's all about blind accepting authority.

There was a ‘doctor’ (That doctor, near the lever, looked like a typical doctor and he commanded to use the lever and he encouraged the people to do it.

The people trusted him, ‘cause he was a ‘doctor’. And if a doctor says ‘you can do it’ then it is safe.

Many people that handled the lever were in doubt but with some motivation of the doctor they did what was been told by an authority.

'Real' brainwashing isn't easy at all. And some scientists even doubt if it is possible at all.

But then, if brainwashing is not about blind accepting authority, what is it? I mean, you always need some form of authority to impose itself upon somebody and then brainwash him, don't you? :confused:

...well considering the number of people who voted for Bush it must be possible, either that or an outbreak of mass hysteria.

But then, if brainwashing is not about blind accepting authority, what is it? I mean, you always need some form of authority to impose itself upon somebody and then brainwash him, don't you? :confused:

Eh no.

First of all it's discussable if brainwashing is real or not. Lots of people are mixing it up with other mind games.

You forgot all kind of things in your describing of the 'lever' experiment.

There were in fact at least 3 experiments.

• With a motivating 'doctor'.
• Without a motivating 'doctor'.
• They also replaced the motivating doctor with a blue collar type.

The results were in the last 2 cases entirely different...

Boot Camps and sects by example have nothing to do with brainwashing. And an authority isn't needed in both cases. (While it certainly helps).

It has more to do with comforting oneself to the group.

When people leave the army, they don't stay in boot camp modus. (This is good for us!)

Members of sects don't stay in the club for ever. In general they stay there just for a few months, max. a year. When they leave the sect, they find their old selves pretty fast.

Those sect members were looking for a warm, safe shelter. In the beginning it seems that everybody loves and like you. They understand you and you understand them. Wow, nice! And autority could help but is not needed. They rather associate themselves with the group behaviour.

But after a while, the 'new' is gone and they leave. (and they will be replaced by a new member). That's called the in-out effect.

...well considering the number of people who voted for Bush it must be possible, either that or an outbreak of mass hysteria.

The intelligence of a group is not the sum of all IQ numbers of the people together.

No, the intelligence of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest guy in the group.

No, the first time Bush wasn’t elected by a majority. If Gore had better lawyers, who knows…

But if we accept that he won (and according courtroom he did), then it could be explained that the people just wanted something “new” after the democrat Clinton. Gore was a more or less bad copy of Clinton.

The second time, Bush was lucky:

• The country is at war. Politicians at war are almost always and everywhere re-elected. At such moments, people remain rather conservative, trust on what they already know.
• And Kerry wasn’t the best candidate the Democrats had to offer either.

I don’t think that your new president will be a Republican. The current one messed it up and the people will select something ‘new’ again.

I have had a friend go through a rigorous self-help seminar and it functioned as a sort of re-formatting for the brain. She came back completely different.

Later I had a girlfriend go to a camp that essentially did the same thing and it ruined the relationship.

I have learned from first-hand experience that there are two things necessary to change around the head, what i would call forms of brainwashing. The first is a willing participant (who at the time probably does not realize the magnitude of the thing) and a bit of isolated time.



I'm sorry that your girlfriend broke up, but odds are high that she did it anyway, without going to that camp.

Sure, those 2 people could be 'changed'. Question is if they are changed for ever... I doubt this.

Actually, that was a
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/Thread.jpg
moment.

You steald mah piksher!

skewed perception resaulting from selectively witheld information is certainly a reality, with or without further exploytation of human gullability.

when you have economic intrests having usurped the political proccess and an information media which is not merely in bed with them but an intrinsic element of the whole political usurpation proccess, i don't see how it is possibly to expect anything other then a great deal of popular misperception.

reguardless of the efficacy, or lack of it, of other means of psychological manipulation, this much at least is an observable, even self evident, reality.

and brainwashing is a convenient shortcut term for describing it.

and it doesn't take rocket science to observe media always couching what it does report in terms and percipetions favorable to it, and its corporate masters', interests.

=^^=
.../\...

It only works on certain people I reckon. I think if you were deprived of sleep food etc. I reckon you could be brainwashed. Also I think religious people are less likely to be brainwashed, even if some people say religion is brainwashing.

No, no, no and no.

Deprived of sleep or food doesn't help. If we agree that the 'brainwash' should work for a longer time then this one doesn't help at all.

Sure, when one is extremely hungry or is desperately in need for sleep, he would in trade say just anything to please his tortures. But that doesn't mean that this person is accepting it in a cognitive way.

And that religious people are less likely to be brainwashed is certainly not true. It doesn't play any factor at all.

Most religions are not doing something as brainwashing, but many of them do use mass hypnoses. The chanting and singing in church could bring the entire group in some form of hypnoses.

Mass hypnoses are not the same as brainwashing.

The hypnosis state doesn't work for a long time, after the session (or the singing in church), the hypnosis state is over.

skewed perception resaulting from selectively witheld information is certainly a reality, with or without further exploytation of human gullability.

when you have economic intrests having usurped the political proccess and an information media which is not merely in bed with them but an intrinsic element of the whole political usurpation proccess, i don't see how it is possibly to expect anything other then a great deal of popular misperception.

reguardless of the efficacy, or lack of it, of other means of psychological manipulation, this much at least is an observable, even self evident, reality.

and brainwashing is a convenient shortcut term for describing it.

and it doesn't take rocket science to observe media always couching what it does report in terms and percipetions favorable to it, and its corporate masters', interests.

=^^=
.../\...


And again that's not brainwashing. It's just indoctrination and accepting authority.

If CNN and other US news sources would broadcast that Bin Laden is killed than *YOU* would accept it as a fact.

CNN and the other news sources are, at least together, an authority.

Few people would reject this 'news' from this trustable authority.

In another thread I explain that foreign friends are calling me, asking if Belgium will have a civil war soon. Why? ‘Cause their media is suggesting it is. (And, no, Belgium will not have a civil war soon, it's just Belgian politics that are incomprehensible for foreigners and…Belgians as well!)

Was one of those books written by Edward Hunter?

He was a CIA agent and journalist. In those time America was seeking desperatly for an answer why American POW prefered the 'bad' communist China/Korea/Russia above the American Dream.

So our Edward 'found' a solution: Brainwashed!

I believe he invented the therm.

It was about 21 (!) American POWs who didn't return. And they were not brainwashed at all. (Btw, compare the 21 with the 90.000 Koreans and Chinese POWs, were those brainwashed as well?)

Those 21 were already weird birds before they were send to war.

There were about 5000 American POWs... So what's 21 people?

No it was not written by an marine. It was written by a psychologist actually I believe. It mainly focused on communist indoctrination camps (I Consider this a form of brainwashing) and religious cults.

No it was not written by an marine. It was written by a psychologist actually I believe. It mainly focused on communist indoctrination camps (I Consider this a form of brainwashing) and religious cults.

This is more to Edwinasia but I can't be bothered to look for the post you've already quoted so...

The Chinese invented the term theoretically - xi nao - wash brain - which was translated by some dude later on - I'll wiki the answer, or at least I'll say I will but I might not.

The Books I Read on Brainwashing

Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing by William Sargent

The Manipulated Mind: Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination by Denise Winn

And various articles.

The Books I Read on Brainwashing

Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing by William Sargent

The Manipulated Mind: Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination by Denise Winn

And various articles.

I'm not sure William Sargent is the best source, though considered an expert in his day, his techniques were questionable as were his conclusions.

That's not to say he hasn't made important contributions but the end point of whether actual brainwashing is feasible has, I think, been mostly done away with though kept permanently alive in people's minds by film and media portrayal of cults.

This article (http://www.cesnur.org/testi/melton.htm) goes into it within the context of religious brainwashing and how the concept was destroyed in a court case but it does touch on the history.

It began as a propaganda ploy which was developed by the American CIA to counter Communist propaganda that clamed that Western POWs in Korea and civilian prisoners on the Communist mainland were converting to Communism. The "brainwashing hoax", as it was referred to by one researcher, claimed that the Communists had invented scientific techniques of coercive persuasion capable of forcing people to convert to Communism against their wills. The essence of the brainwashing notion is that people are put into a hyper-suggestible altered state of consciousness through hypnosis, drugs, debilitation or other means, and then their worldviews are transformed against their wills through conditioning techniques.

Anthony demonstrated that Lifton's and Schein's research refuted the brainwashing paradigm in eight major respects. For instance none of their subjects actually converted to Communism at any point. Rather they had merely behaved as if they were being influenced by Communist propaganda because of the plausible threat of extreme physical coercion. Moreover, those few of their subjects who had been slightly influenced by Communist indoctrination differed from the great majority of their subjects because of motives and personality characteristics that existed prior to their Communist indoctrination which predisposed them to respond favorably to totalitarian propaganda, rather than because they had been placed in an altered state of consciousness and then been conditioned to change their worldviews. The bottom line is that the brainwashing paradigm is actually the polar opposite of the theories of Schein and Lifton in that their research indicates that the Communists did not have techniques capable of converting individuals to Communism against their wills whereas the brainwashing idea claims the opposite. In his article, Anthony quoted repeatedly from Singer's testimony in cultic brainwashing cases and demonstrated that her testimony was based upon the discredited brainwashing paradigm and was not based upon the views of Lifton and Schein. Consequently, Anthony argued Singer's testimony was not based upon a generally accepted scientific theory and thus she should be excluded under the Frye Standard from testifying in cultic brainwashing cases.

I
That's not to say he hasn't made important contributions but the end point of whether actual brainwashing is feasible has, I think, been mostly done away with though kept permanently alive in people's minds by film and media portrayal of cults.

Well it depends on how you define brainwashing. I define extreme forms of indoctrination as brainwashing. I'm not defining brainwashing as "absolute mind control", but it can involve some mind control. I am defining brainwashing as tearing down someone's value system, rebuilding it to the point where they will follow the authority, and having them blindly follow that authority to some extremes the majority of the time.

For instance to me for some common examples off the top of my head Jehovah's Witness are brainwashed, Scientology has many adherents brainwashed (or blinded depending on who you ask), I imagine Special Forces of various nations to be brainwashed to an extent, etc.

Well it depends on how you define brainwashing. I define extreme forms of indoctrination as brainwashing. I'm not defining brainwashing as "absolute mind control", but it can involve some mind control. I am defining brainwashing as tearing down someone's value system, rebuilding it to the point where they will follow the authority, and having them blindly follow that authority to some extremes the majority of the time.

For instance to me for some common examples off the top of my head Jehovah's Witness are brainwashed, Scientology has many adherents brainwashed (or blinded depending on who you ask), I imagine Special Forces of various nations to be brainwashed to an extent, etc.



Yes I (almost) agree.

It is believed that Scientology is using the Synthesis of the Russian Textbook on Psychopolitics (http://www.mininova.org/tor/302180).

While JW and Scientology can be considered as sects, it are both special ones. In general its members stay with the club for years, if not, for ever.
But yes, I think, it's safe to say they are doing some kind of brainwashing.

For the Special Forces, like Navy Seals, SAS etc..., I do not recognize it as brainwashing. I don't think that these people are drilling their wife and children at home...

They really know that their professional drill and behaviour at 'work' are just needed to perform their duty. And do not underestimate the factor 'group'.
Their colleagues are all doing the same. They follow each other.

Most people, whatever your background is, conform themselves to the standards of any sudden group they belong.

By instance, the most pacifist settled people can become very aggressive when they are suddenly part of a group of football hooligans. Still, they are not brainwashed. Most of them really know that their fights and vandalism is 'wrong'. They just do it 'cause the group is doing it and they want to be accepted by the group.
Most hooligans are not a member for life. When they grow up, they return to be good citizen.

Sure, exceptions can be found everywhere...

No it was not written by an marine. It was written by a psychologist actually I believe. It mainly focused on communist indoctrination camps (I Consider this a form of brainwashing) and religious cults.

Those camps never existed. It's really an urban legend.

You can fool some people all the time, all people some time, but not all the people all the time.
If it was that easy, brainwashing, why is business not using these techniques?

One could say, they are doing it, but for me, conditioning, influencing, indoctrinating are all different animals as brainwashing.

Those camps never existed. It's really an urban legend.

You can fool some people all the time, all people some time, but not all the people all the time.
If it was that easy, brainwashing, why is business not using these techniques?

One could say, they are doing it, but for me, conditioning, influencing, indoctrinating are all different animals as brainwashing.

Urban legend or effective piece of anti-communist propaganda?


* you will all forget you have ever read this thread*

Urban legend or effective piece of anti-communist propaganda?


* you will all forget you have ever read this thread*


According my own feeling, I think it worked that way:

* The newspapers at that time were shocked by the American POWs that migrated to communism and blow up the 'news'.

* Edward Hunter, a member of the CIA, created the idea of the communist brainwash camps. I think he played solo slim, it was not an action of the CIA as an institute.

* The newspapers pick it up (Edward was a journalist as well…) and report about it.

And so the urban legend was created.

After all, we are talking about only 21 POWs that converted to communism on a total of 5000 American POWs, it's not what I call fantastic results.

Most of those 21 men could be described as weird people. Some were eccentrics, others were just troublemakers, and few had a criminal record.

Don't forget, McCarthy was in service at that time... Do I need to say more? :)

But I’m amazed that many people still eat the communist brainwash camps.

Still, I don’t consider the acts of Edward Hunter as brainwashing, but rather indoctrinating or misinforming.

And again that's not brainwashing. It's just indoctrination and accepting authority.

somehow i seem to have missed the part where how indocrination and acceptin authority is anything other then identical with brainwashing, is meaningfully explained.

it certainly walks like a duck and quacks like one.

=^^=
.../\...

somehow i seem to have missed the part where how indocrination and acceptin authority is anything other then identical with brainwashing, is meaningfully explained.

it certainly walks like a duck and quacks like one.

=^^=
.../\...


No. It's simple, in my own words:

One can brainwash without being a (high) authority. So leave this one out.

Consider brainwashing as a hardcore version of indoctrinating.

If I misinform you about a few facts, then I'm not brainwashing you but indoctrinating.

But when I break you're entire being in pieces and construct a 'new' one for you, when you accept that new personality for a longer time than I'm brainwashing you.

Else you could argue that all schools are brainwashing...

I'm pretty sure they only work on people who're pretty weak minded to begin with

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

I'm sorry that your girlfriend broke up, but odds are high that she did it anyway, without going to that camp.

Sure, those 2 people could be 'changed'. Question is if they are changed for ever... I doubt this.

Actually i agree. They both went through a phase where they could revert back to their original personalities, and then after that they started to veer twoard normal again. But for both of them there is still an element from the mind re-format that i think always will be there.

Yeah, it is real. And quite easy to use, too. If we avoid to talk about Nazism and its skills in blinding people (which is not exactly brainwashing, since it was acted against people who wanted to be deceived) there is a small experiment which is really interesting. They took some people to a fake science experiment, whose issue was: how long can people resist pain? These people had to turn a lever to start an increasing electroshock against someone who was held in another room. The ones in the room were actors, who screamed more loudly as the "shock" grew stronger, so that they cuold be heard by the ones holding the lever. A scientist stood near the lever, pretending to look at the "shocked" and giving orders. No one refused to go on with what was supposed to be a torture. This is brainwashing: to make people who think something to be wrong DO what they think to be wrong, without being forced to it.

I do remember reading about that when i studied Psychology a few years ago, the psychologists name began with an M, but it escapes me at the moment.

Another interesting one was the Zimbardo prison study, where people who voluteered were randomly assigned as prisoners and guards, wih the prisoners being taken as if they had really commited a crime and the guards abusing the power they had been given viciously.

Also studied Pavlov's dogs, learned and conditioned responses. They tested it on a baby, (Little Albert i think) by putting him in a room with a white mouse, whenever he touched the mouse, the scientists would cause a loud noise which scared the baby. After doing this several times the baby developed a phobia of the mouse. The mother, rightly so, withdrew him from the study, but the damage was done and the baby generalised the phobia into most things white and fluffy, including clouds and sheep etc.

Oh, another one was Ash's line study. A participant would be put into a group with 5 confederates (people in on the experiment) and was presented with a picture that showed 4 lines and a fifth which they were supposed to match to one of the original 4. The confederates, who at least 3 of would take a turn before the participant would all pick the same, wrong conclusion and in many cases the participant would willingly pick the wrong line as he was more inclined to ignore his own judgement and conform with what other people had said.


Not remembering that guys name is really bugging me now >.<

Edit: Gotcha, quick search reveals his name was Stanley Milgram.

It's real, but it can be a bit difficult. Generally it is easiest to brainwash those who are already dead, as the brain can be fully removed from the body, immersed in the basin, and scrubbed down; but research indicates that it may be possible to wash the brains of living beings, although how long they will survive after the brain is washed is debatable. In addition, the negative ions of the water used may alter brain patterns, potentially causing spasms, fits, and memory lapses.

You may not know this, but I brainwashed you into making this thread. So yes, its real.

Edit: Gotcha, quick search reveals his name was Stanley Milgram.
Yes, the results of his experiment was disconcerting, to say the least. But that didn't really study brainwashing; in fact, the results suggested it was actually really easy to get people to do something they know is wrong if you are an authority figure. The experimenters didn't make people believe what they were doing was good, the subjects still thought it was immoral, but they did it anyway. That's the scary part.
For anyone not familiar with the experiments, there is a comprehensive site about him here (http://www.stanleymilgram.com/).

You may not know this, but I brainwashed you into making this thread. So yes, its real.

That is impossible, Dear Leader. You would never knowingly harm or humiliate your most devoted servant.

Yes, the results of his experiment was disconcerting, to say the least. But that didn't really study brainwashing; in fact, the results suggested it was actually really easy to get people to do something they know is wrong if you are an authority figure. The experimenters didn't make people believe what they were doing was good, the subjects still thought it was immoral, but they did it anyway. That's the scary part.
For anyone not familiar with the experiments, there is a comprehensive site about him here (http://www.stanleymilgram.com/).

I know, many of them also required therapy afterward. Anyhow, I specifically avoided mentioning brainwashing in my post. My only intent was to share some interesting studies on conformity and obediance to demonstrate that making people act differantly to how they normally would is not as hard as some people on this forum seem to imagine.

As for whether brainwashing is possible or not, my views on the matter are undecided.

Plus there were many variations on the Milgram experiment, where if people were in a position where they could directly see the effects of there actions or were required to force the person being inflicted by 'shocks' to continue then obediance was far reduced.

Times like this i wish I had carried on studying psychology, ah well.

Edit: It's also times like this where i wonder how my memory, which is usually reserved only for useless information manages to remember so much useful stuff when it comes to psychology.

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

I don't want to sell you death sticks.
I want to go home and rethink my life.

...

You steald mah piksher!

Homage, homage.
You're the only one. I promise.
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/cool29.gif

Two words: Christian Bible.

Two words: Christian Bible.

One name, same topic:

See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the "truth" to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/audio/260505bushism.mp3