NationStates Jolt Archive

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6959789,00.html)Sunday September 30, 2007 8:31 AM


TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) - Taiwan's ruling Democratic Progressive Party passed a resolution Sunday to assert the island's separate identity from rival China and call for the enactment of a new constitution.

The resolution for a ``normal country'' - passed at a boisterous party congress - calls for general use of ``Taiwan'' as the island's name, without specifically abolishing its current formal name, the Republic of China.

The move could rile China, which has repeatedly threatened war if Taiwan formalizes its de facto independence.

The congress comes ahead of the presidential election next March. The pro-independence DPP has resorted to a strategy of provoking China to help it garner islanders' votes in past national elections.


The day before Taiwan announces that they are devloping a missile capable of hitting Chinese Cities and that they have started making missiles to hit Chinese Airbases.LINK (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=531069&lang=eng_news&cate_img=83.jpg&cate_rss=news_Politics_TAIWAN)Much to the anger of the US. Today they state they're going to make a new Constution...

Oh shi...

If they were going to do it, any time before the Olympics was their best bet, but I would've waited a little longer.

Jesus H. Christ.

If there was ever a case of politicians fucking things up for normal people, this is it.

Well, at least it won't be boring.

Man this world is ready to explode. Problems in the Middle East, Africa, and now Asia. We better watch Antarctica, those penguins are up to something. >.> <.<

Oh christ. Here comes the end.

Oh christ. Here comes the end.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yi0QfDDA1ZA

Once again, this proves that You Tube has a video for any topic, posting occasion. :)

Jesus H. Christ.

If there was ever a case of politicians fucking things up for normal people, this is it.

Well, at least it won't be boring.

What worries me is what if they have some sort of Trump card against the Mainland...

Maybe those missiles are actually already in place... And maybe they have a more dangerous cargo than an explosive.
Like a Chemical or Biological Weapon.

So who wants to bet that the United States will actually stay out of this one?

I'm betting $5 that they'll stick their noses in it, which I really wish they wouldn't.

Maybe those missiles are actually already in place... And maybe they have a more dangerous cargo than an explosive.
Like a Chemical or Biological Weapon.
I don't think either side actually wants to kill anyone. There's not gonna be a war, I'm just waiting to see what alternative they think of.

Does anybody know how seriously China is going to take this? They've asserted independence, but will the shit hit the fan now or when they try and implement a new constitution?

Of course we will stick our nose in it. Its a given.

You would think we would learn by now....

So who wants to bet that the United States will actually stay out of this one?

I'm betting $5 that they'll stick their noses in it, which I really wish they wouldn't.

Of course we will stick our nose in it. Its a given.

Given that China has no real land claim to Taiwan, they're technically correct in considering themselves independent.

However, it would make a lot more sense simply to have a referendum on the issue and allow the people to decide; I have no doubt that any agreement with China would require the adoption of another "two systems, one country" model to preserve democracy and civil rights in Taiwan, so it might actually be immensely beneficial for these causes on the mainland if a successful capitalist, democratic state were integrated in to China.

Not to mention it would dilute the "Communist" party's power, which is certainly a good thing for the future democratization and continued development of China.

I don't think either side actually wants to kill anyone. There's not gonna be a war, I'm just waiting to see what alternative they think of.
If it is it's going to be a quick one, perhaps a quick air assault by china to seize the Congress.

You would think we would learn by now....

Hard headed is the American way. :p

Couldn't China just announce, quite clearly, that Taiwan has missiles from Chinese sites trained on it, and that unless they give this shit up, one or more buttons may be accidentally pressed, on the hour, by the hour?

If it is it's going to be a quick one, perhaps a quick air assault by china to seize the Congress.

Unlikely. IIRC, Taiwan has a pretty good airforce and air defences and there isn't enough airspace over Taiwan for China to use its numerical advantage. If they do anything, I'm guessing it'll be a blockade or a heavy bombardment. The US really doesn't want to get into a direct war with China, if China call their bluff and attack then I'll be very surprised if the US does more than supply weapons and supplies to Taiwan.

The US really doesn't want to get into a direct war with China, if China call their bluff and attack then I'll be very surprised if the US does more than supply weapons and supplies to Taiwan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6269697.stm

Can anyone give me one good reason why the ultimate pragmatists (ie the modern Chinese leadership) would do something as stupid as going to war?

Hmmm. The safest way to assert independence would be to do it during the Olympics.

China would never think of military action during it. Hopefully, with China on the media world stage during those couple weeks, it will realize that Taiwan shouldn't be attacked just for wanting independence.

I don't know, I just think that would be the best way to do it.

Why is no one seeing this from the Taiwanese point of view? They want independence from a country that has repeatedly defied them. Not only China has no right at all to the claims over Taiwan, if they have to threaten chemical, biological or normal war to get their independence, so be it! Not only China wouldn't see it as worth it, ESPECIALLY during or near the Olympics, the Taiwanese have every right to do this.

i think they should be a country in and of themselves too. but i think they should call themselves formosa rather then taiwan.

i also think tibet, samoa, hawaii, and many other places with natural and traditional cultural boundries ought to be returned to being indipendent and indipendently self governing nations as well.

reguardless of the sphere of influence or idiology of that sphere of influence they are under the shadow of now.

=^^=
.../\...

Like anything, this is way more complicated than first glance.

If you think that China will become a major economic power then, to some extent, it's in Taiwan's interest to stay closely aligned with mainland China.

However, we have, in Taiwan, a generation in power that has a strong affinity with independence.

Essentially this is a war of time - how long and how far can the current Taiwan leadership push indendence - I'd give it 10 years - and so, For Chen Shui Bian to keep power, now is the time for the real push. Frankly, I don't particularly agree with it as policy, however I'd add that I've felt the Communist party is moving towards democracy - this month's events in Burma make me question that.

Will China follow Taiwan in terms of an effective dictatorship becoming a full democracy or will it follow Burma in terms of entrenched power?

Asia is the most interesting region politically because there's so many vested interests, more than the ME in the long term.

We're seeing a realignment from USA to China in Asia - there's interests in Taiwan to align with the USA, and weakly with democracy, and there's interests to align with China, and weak characteristics of communism.

Power corrupts all.

You would think we would learn by now....
It's also enshrined in US law, so...

Good, Taiwan should be it's own country...now all we need is a free Tibet

Good, Taiwan should be it's own country...now all we need is a free Tibet

If only it were that easy.

'Freedom' is a tricky word filled with implications between what current freedom is obtained, over future freedom lost.

A 'free' Tibet would probably be more like Nepal than current Taiwan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6269697.stm

Can anyone give me one good reason why the ultimate pragmatists (ie the modern Chinese leadership) would do something as stupid as going to war?

Taiwan has been their local feeding stock in terms of appearing strong against their neighbors. After all the rhetoric they've used, if they don't at least carry out punitive strikes on Taiwan, the Chinese public will lose a lot faith in the government. They'd have to do it if they want to keep appearing strong.

Why is no one seeing this from the Taiwanese point of view?
I am. Taiwan's population is overwhelmingly in favour of the status quo, they don't want stupid adventures over pieces of paper.

Taiwan has been their local feeding stock in terms of appearing strong against their neighbors. After all the rhetoric they've used, if they don't at least carry out punitive strikes on Taiwan, the Chinese public will lose a lot faith in the government. They'd have to do it if they want to keep appearing strong.
And if they don't, China's neighbours will think the soon-to-be biggest economy of the world with 1.3 billion+ people is "weak"?

Man this world is ready to explode. Problems in the Middle East, Africa, and now Asia. We better watch Antarctica, those penguins are up to something. >.> <.<

http://eelco.is.a.rootboy.net/images/penguin%20army.jpg

They will be victorious!

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6959789,00.html)

The day before Taiwan announces that they are devloping a missile capable of hitting Chinese Cities and that they have started making missiles to hit Chinese Airbases.LINK (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=531069&lang=eng_news&cate_img=83.jpg&cate_rss=news_Politics_TAIWAN)Much to the anger of the US. Today they state they're going to make a new Constution...

Oh shi...

ABOUT TIME!!!

this is the BEST time for taiwan to do this.

poor taiwan started out claiming to be the legitimate government for all of china and now it cant even claim to be the legitimate government for itself.

but really, with the '08 olympics less than a year away (i already have an '08 tshirt) does china really want to have to take taiwan by force? NOW? they are already getting a ration of shit for not intervening in the sudan, how would the world react to them bombing or invading taiwan?

so taiwan has to make its move now or forget it for a long time to come.

Maybe those missiles are actually already in place... And maybe they have a more dangerous cargo than an explosive.
Like a Chemical or Biological Weapon.

That would put them in a bad light and lose any support they would gain if they use them.

Does anybody know how seriously China is going to take this? They've asserted independence, but will the shit hit the fan now or when they try and implement a new constitution?

Probaby a new consitution.

I loved this from the Chinese:

Official political opinion in the People's Republic of China is against Taiwanese independence. The PRC's government has repeatedly stated that a formal declaration of independence from Taiwan would trigger military intervention. The PRC often claims independence is wanted by only a small group, which is trying to brainwash others into thinking the same thing. According to the 2000 White Paper, the Chinese government does not believe the 22 million people of Taiwan have the power to unilaterally declare independence through a referendum or otherwise, and that eventual unification is the only option.
Irony much?

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6959789,00.html)

The day before Taiwan announces that they are devloping a missile capable of hitting Chinese Cities and that they have started making missiles to hit Chinese Airbases.LINK (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=531069&lang=eng_news&cate_img=83.jpg&cate_rss=news_Politics_TAIWAN)Much to the anger of the US. Today they state they're going to make a new Constution...

Oh shi...

I hate that saber rattling, but they want their independence, they should get it.

One China policy is what the whole world support. Look how many countries support mainland China over Taiwan.

A 'free' Tibet would probably be more like Nepal than current Taiwan.

Nepal is like this only because Tibet was gobbled by China.

Tibet used to be the "buffer state" for millenniums.

One China policy is what the whole world support. Look how many countries support mainland China over Taiwan.

Twenty-Four nations do recognize Taiwan as a free and independent state. The US unofficially recognizes Taiwan.

nothing will happen as usual, I suspect that China and Taiwan's leaders will just have a nap and forget the whole thing

then the communist government can allow democratic elections and turn out to be nice guys after all :)

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6959789,00.html)

The day before Taiwan announces that they are devloping a missile capable of hitting Chinese Cities and that they have started making missiles to hit Chinese Airbases.LINK (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=531069&lang=eng_news&cate_img=83.jpg&cate_rss=news_Politics_TAIWAN)Much to the anger of the US. Today they state they're going to make a new Constution...

Oh shi...

I really hoped that the general war would come after I passed the upper end of conscription age.

I hope China turns those rebels into plate glass.

I hope China turns those rebels into plate glass.

So, you don't think that the Taiwanese have a right to independence?

I say that they do.

One China policy is what the whole world support. Look how many countries support mainland China over Taiwan.

that doesn't mean a whole bunch there, chief. even if you did get the whole world behind it, the whole world could support me beating you with a hammer and it doesn't give me any authority at all to actually do it.

While China's "http://www.taiwandc.org/aslaw-text.htm" Anti-Secession Law deals mainly with peaceful means of unification with Taiwan they're quite clear as to the ramifications of secession:

"Article 8 In the event that the "Taiwan independence" secessionist forces should act under any name or by any means to cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China, or that major incidents entailing Taiwan's secession from China should occur, orthat possibilities for a peaceful reunification should be completely exhausted, the state shall employ non-peaceful means and other necessary measures to protect China's sovereignty and territorial integrity.

The State Council and the Central Military Commission shall decide on and execute the non-peaceful means and other necessary measures as provided for in the preceding paragraph and shall promptly report to the Standing Committee of the National People'sCongress."

I hope China turns those rebels into plate glass.

That is quite ironic when you consider the fact that mainland China IS the rebel.

Twenty-Four nations do recognize Taiwan as a free and independent state. The US unofficially recognizes Taiwan.

And far more would recognize Taiwan if they could do so without being frozen out of China's marketplace.

Mirkana
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sel Appa View Post
I hope China turns those rebels into plate glass.
So, you don't think that the Taiwanese have a right to independence?

I say that they do.

Nobody has the right to independence. You either take it for yourself or acknowledge you can't.

But Taiwan HAS taken it, for fifty years now, by having a military worth respecting and by cultivating a protector (the US).

And the US has no choices here. If China goes for Taiwan, the US MUST step in. If they don't, the US will never be trusted as an ally again.

I just hope China realises that, and doesn't paint themselves into a corner.

And if they don't, China's neighbours will think the soon-to-be biggest economy of the world with 1.3 billion+ people is "weak"?

It's not what the neighbors think. It's what the Chinese people would think. If they think the government is weak, unrest will soon follow.

I hope China turns those rebels into plate glass.

Then China would be turned into plate glass.

One China policy is what the whole world support. Look how many countries support mainland China over Taiwan.
The only reason they support China at all is because China has become Big Business's best buddy through the years.

Don't want to piss off Walmart and the other child labor companies you know.

Then China would be turned into plate glass.
Then EVERYONE is turned into plate glass.

If they were going to do it, any time before the Olympics was their best bet, but I would've waited a little longer.

Actually, good point. It'd look pretty bad on the commies if they fired missiles on Taiwan during the Olympics.

The only reason they support China at all is because China has become Big Business's best buddy through the years.

Don't want to piss off Walmart and the other child labor companies you know.


Then EVERYONE is turned into plate glass.

No, not really. China doesn't have an awful lot of nukes - enough to make a complete mess of the USA or any other country, and they have Gen-3 Fusion weapons, but not enough to wipe the planet.

Unless the have a Cobalt Shell Bomb, of course.

Actually, good point. It'd look pretty bad on the commies if they fired missiles on Taiwan during the Olympics.

so theyll probably wait until after the olympics THEN invade taiwan

Nepal is like this only because Tibet was gobbled by China.

Tibet used to be the "buffer state" for millenniums.

Well, the Tibetan Government in Exile does have a written constitution whisc would probably carry over to an independent Tibet. Also, the Dalai Lama has already ststes that he will relinquish his power to a prime minister (probably the current Government in Exile prime minister) and be more like a ceremonial monarch.

And far more would recognize Taiwan if they could do so without being frozen out of China's marketplace.



Nobody has the right to independence. You either take it for yourself or acknowledge you can't.

But Taiwan HAS taken it, for fifty years now, by having a military worth respecting and by cultivating a protector (the US).

And the US has no choices here. If China goes for Taiwan, the US MUST step in. If they don't, the US will never be trusted as an ally again.

I just hope China realises that, and doesn't paint themselves into a corner.

Would China want to get North Korea to attack South Korea, and use Burma as a launching ground for attacks on other nations.

Would China want to get North Korea to attack South Korea, and use Burma as a launching ground for attacks on other nations.

to what end?

or in other words NO.

China sees Taiwan as a renegade province correct?
Do they also see Taiwan being not a part of the mainland as part of
the historic interference of outside powers in China's internal affairs,
including from the Opium Wars?

If this is the case even leading up to today,
would China think this is encouraged by the US?
I mean, the US is bogged down in 2 wars already.
Iraq at a draw, Afghanistan they only control the capital city.
The US could hardly be drawn into another war and not financially collapse.
One would think US rulers would know this and wouldn't be THAT insane,
as much as they are already.


We know Pakistan is armed to keep India busy.
-according to US diplomats quoted in Cover Action Quarterly from some
late 90s issue.
And the US repeatedly arms Taiwan.

to what end?

or in other words NO.

To what end, you might ask?

To be an awesome movie pitch.

XD

Twenty-Four nations do recognize Taiwan as a free and independent state. The US unofficially recognizes Taiwan.

Actually, it is official US gov't police that there is "one China",
according to Chalmers Johnson of the Japan Policy Research Institute
(in something by him I've read, sorry I do not have exact source)

despite sales of arms to Taiwan.

Actually, it is official US gov't police that there is "one China",

And yet we have a treaty that obligates us to defend Taiwan in the event that they do declare independence AND gets attacked by the PRC. Just because officially we have a one China policy, means nothing when UNOFFICIALLY, we do recognize them as we have official relations and obilgated to defend it. Why would we be obligated to defend someone if we do not tacitly recognize them.

according to Chalmers Johnson of the Japan Policy Research Institute
(in something by him I've read, sorry I do not have exact source)

despite sales of arms to Taiwan.

And despite our oblilgation to defend Taiwan in the event of a Chinese Attack?

To what end, you might ask?

To be an awesome movie pitch.

XD

o

i didnt consider that

are you sure it hasnt already been done by tom clancy?

And yet we have a treaty that obligates us to defend Taiwan in the event that they do declare independence AND gets attacked by the PRC. Just because officially we have a one China policy, means nothing when UNOFFICIALLY, we do recognize them as we have official relations and obilgated to defend it. Why would we be obligated to defend someone if we do not tacitly recognize them.


And despite our oblilgation to defend Taiwan in the event of a Chinese Attack?

Then why would Taiwan do this now?
When the US is obviously bogged down in two wars.

I guess, we probably shouldn't knee-jerk reaction to think war stuff first.
That's a problem we have let ourselves get messed up into.

hmmm, certainly seems like a potential mess.
I'll have to read up on some sources I trust in the next couple days.
I really like the JPRI I linked above, because the receive no government or
corporate funding.

Then why would Taiwan do this now?
When the US is obviously bogged down in two wars.

Its called the Olympics TWS

I guess, we probably shouldn't knee-jerk reaction to think war stuff first.
That's a problem we have let ourselves get messed up into.

That I can agree with. I just go by statements made by China and international agreements we have with Taiwan.

Twenty-Four nations do recognize Taiwan as a free and independent state.
None that anyone cares about much, though.
The US unofficially recognizes Taiwan.
That makes no actual odds, though.

I am yet to see this story anywhere else except here and when I Google news search for Taiwan. Kinda sad...

Anyway, can anyone tell me what happens if Taiwan does try and implement a new constitution, for example, and China tries to use military force to take it back? Will it be like WW one where countries kind of fall into sides? Who will Russia be supporting and who would actually actively support China, at least with military force?

I am yet to see this story anywhere else except here and when I Google news search for Taiwan. Kinda sad...

Anyway, can anyone tell me what happens if Taiwan does try and implement a new constitution, for example, and China tries to use military force to take it back?

There will be a new Asian/Pacific War.

Will it be like WW one where countries kind of fall into sides? Who will Russia be supporting and who would actually actively support China, at least with military force?

That's a good question given China's record in the region.

I am yet to see this story anywhere else except here and when I Google news search for Taiwan. Kinda sad...

Anyway, can anyone tell me what happens if Taiwan does try and implement a new constitution, for example, and China tries to use military force to take it back? Will it be like WW one where countries kind of fall into sides? Who will Russia be supporting and who would actually actively support China, at least with military force?
China would blockade them, and probably nothing more, because it doesn't want to start a war over things with the olympics so near and such.



To be honest, the Taiwanese asking for independance is about as futile as the Tibetans doing so.

"oh this is soooo unfair"
"nobody with any political or military power cares"
"but... but... the bleeding hearts do!"
"they're just looking for an excuse to be offended, though"

etc. etc.

so theyll probably wait until after the olympics THEN invade taiwan

So.. if Taiwan declares independence during the start of the Olympics, Beijing won't be able to attack until months later, but what could Beijing possibly use as a justification for the attacks?

So.. if Taiwan declares independence during the start of the Olympics, Beijing won't be able to attack until months later, but what could Beijing possibly use as a justification for the attacks?

Taiwan's unjustified (in their mind) independence movement, obviously. They don't need any pretexts.

Personally, I hope Taiwan gets it's independence, well I suppose it already has it, but I would hope China just lays off. I'm surprised to see so many people support China on this one. I don't see any reason to support another country's imperialism.

I little part of me also hopes a war starts and that we get to beat down China, uppity little punks. More, likely it seems that we'd abandon Taiwan if anything did go down.

No, not really. China doesn't have an awful lot of nukes - enough to make a complete mess of the USA or any other country, and they have Gen-3 Fusion weapons, but not enough to wipe the planet.
Unless the have a Cobalt Shell Bomb, of course.
If China launches on us we would of course launch back. Then it'll end up like that end of the world Flash movie.


There will be a new Asian/Pacific War.[Quote]
Indeed.

[Quote]That's a good question given China's record in the region.

I don't think China has ANY allies really, they have countries who fear them but everyone seems to adknowledge China as a "Bad Guy nation".

Oh and Russia wouldn't side with China, even though the USSR doesn't exist anymore, I think they still haven't forgiven China for that falling out they had.

I just realized this also messes up the Iran problem, China and Russia are the two people funding them, if they become enemies again it's off.

Hmmmmm....

If China launches on us we would of course launch back. Then it'll end up like that end of the world Flash movie.

No, just the end of the world as we know it. We'll wind up with the US shattered wreckage, China = Black Glass, and Asia totally contaminated.

Europe, Africa, South America and Australia should survive okay.

No, just the end of the world as we know it. We'll wind up with the US shattered wreckage, China = Black Glass, and Asia totally contaminated.

Yea

Europe, Africa, South America and Australia should survive okay.

Well South America and Australia probably. Europe and Parts of Africa would suffer fall out.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/11/news/taiwan.php
Surveys show that about 60 percent of people favor maintaining the status quo in relations with China.

Why doesn't anyone care?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/11/news/taiwan.php


Why doesn't anyone care?

68% of the country wants Cheney and Bush Impeached...

Yet they're still there.

Unlikely if Americans still want cheap goods.

If China launched a nuclear strike on Taiwan, the US will turn China into glass.

Given that China has no real land claim to Taiwan, they're technically correct in considering themselves independent.

However, it would make a lot more sense simply to have a referendum on the issue and allow the people to decide; I have no doubt that any agreement with China would require the adoption of another "two systems, one country" model to preserve democracy and civil rights in Taiwan, so it might actually be immensely beneficial for these causes on the mainland if a successful capitalist, democratic state were integrated in to China.

Not to mention it would dilute the "Communist" party's power, which is certainly a good thing for the future democratization and continued development of China.

Taiwan was not the free and happy democracy people claimed until very recently. PRC was more democratic.

i think they should be a country in and of themselves too. but i think they should call themselves formosa rather then taiwan.

i also think tibet, samoa, hawaii, and many other places with natural and traditional cultural boundries ought to be returned to being indipendent and indipendently self governing nations as well.

reguardless of the sphere of influence or idiology of that sphere of influence they are under the shadow of now.

=^^=
.../\...

They don't want to be called Formosa, that was put on them by European occupiers.

I loved this from the Chinese:
Official political opinion in the People's Republic of China is against Taiwanese independence. The PRC's government has repeatedly stated that a formal declaration of independence from Taiwan would trigger military intervention. The PRC often claims independence is wanted by only a small group, which is trying to brainwash others into thinking the same thing. According to the 2000 White Paper, the Chinese government does not believe the 22 million people of Taiwan have the power to unilaterally declare independence through a referendum or otherwise, and that eventual unification is the only option.

Irony much?

Likely true

So, you don't think that the Taiwanese have a right to independence?

I say that they do.

No sir, I do not.

That is quite ironic when you consider the fact that mainland China IS the rebel.

No. The Republic of China was replaced.

Then China would be turned into plate glass.

Unlikely if Americans still want cheap goods.

Jesus H. Christ.

If there was ever a case of politicians fucking things up for normal people, this is it.

Well, at least it won't be boring.

This is a case of Free People asserting their right to live in an open society. Fuck those Commie bastards. I'm all for a free and independent Taiwan.

FREE TIBET

If China launched a nuclear strike on Taiwan, the US will turn China into glass.

Nah. America is too cheap to do that.

This is a case of Free People asserting their right to live in an open society. Fuck those Commie bastards. I'm all for a free and independent Taiwan.

FREE TIBET

Die.

Nah. America is too cheap to do that.

:rolleyes:

Die.

Why don't you?

Nah. America is too cheap to do that.
Putin isn't.


Why don't you?
Leave Sel Appa, we don't want a China fanboy hanging around.

Nah. America is too cheap to do that.



Die.


You can never silence the voice of FREEDOM!!!!

Leave Sel Appa, we don't want a China fanboy hanging around.

But you'll gladly accept warmongers, and Ameri-fascists I see. I mean, you didn't exactly call for FAG to leave now did you? Or how he was unwanted around here.

Let me get this straight, Sel Appa believes the US shouldn't be in Afghanistan because some innocents might die yet he wants to nuke the 20+ million residents of Taiwan.

Just leave troll. You are a sick and sorry person.

68% of the country wants Cheney and Bush Impeached...

Yet they're still there.
Yeah, but so many people here say that "Taiwan" is asserting its sovereignty, and people tell me it's because "they" want to "live in an open society".

That sort of talk seems to me to be no more valid than asserting that just because Cheney and Bush are not impeached the people of America love them.

This is a case of a parliament majority acting against the will of the actual majority of the population on a matter that could significantly impact the living standards and livelihoods of everyone in the country. I have to think very hard to imagine anyone at all who would actually be better off as a result of this policy, but it seems quite easy to think of people who'll be worse off.

Yet many here seem to be applauding the decision and ranting on about how evil China is, as though it had anything to do with whether or not this is good policy.

Also with polls, one has to see what the statistical break down is and how the question was phrased. Polls often do not tell the entire story. Do people want the status quo? Yes. Do the people of Taiwan want to be a member of the UN? I believe they do. The status quo could mean anything in this particular case.

But you'll gladly accept warmongers, and Ameri-fascists I see. I mean, you didn't exactly call for FAG to leave now did you? Or how he was unwanted around here.
Did FAG post in this thread? I must have missed it. If so same story.

Sorry he's advocating the destruction of Taiwan, that's around the same lines of what FAG does. He can GTFO.

i would have sworn the name tiwan was imposed on the indiginous formosans by a once upon a time so called chinese government in exile.

i don't claim any expertese on the subject so i could be entirely mistaken. perhapse the island nation's pre-chang ki check name is something entirely unknown to myself and the rest of the world. whatever it was. whatever it was called by whoever was living there, BEFORE it was invaded by ANYONE, is what it ought to be called.

but at any rate, i'm only speaking in terms of "ought to be's". what is capable of being done is another question entirely. but perhapse, if the u.s. vs china standoff is sufficiently secure, it could skate out from under either of their excessive influences.

even if it has to do so quietly and by keeping a low profile.

=^^=
.../\...

According to polls in Taiwan, only 30% support having relations with US, apparently, the Taiwanese are mad with America not doing anything to help Taiwan. (besides arming Taiwan.)


And Taiwan really needs something against those 950 missiles that China is pointing at Taiwan at this very minute.

The U.S. should have given Taiwan nukes long ago. Then MAD would kick in, and China would stop obsessing over this notion of "reunification."

The U.S. should have given Taiwan nukes long ago. Then MAD would kick in, and China would stop obsessing over this notion of "reunification."

Actually in the 1980s Taiwan began developing Nuclear weapons, but US pressure force them to end it.

The U.S. should have given Taiwan nukes long ago. Then MAD would kick in, and China would stop obsessing over this notion of "reunification."

MAD= Mobile Aerial Desserts. :)

MAD= Muddy Aerial Desserts. :)

Fixed for Goofballiancy. Aerial indicates that it's mobile already anyway.

I am from Canada and have lived in Taiwan for 9 years and I can say these few facts for the outside world .

The R.O.C (Republic of China in Taiwan) are part of the original founding members of the U.N.
In the early 1970's Kissenger and his ilk , recognized the P.R.C and Taiwan ceded from the U.N under Chiang-kia-shek's orders. There was a chance back then that the R.O.C would still remain in the UN but lose its security council seat. Chiang would have none of that so the R.O.C ceded from the U.N . It was not kicked from the U.N it only lost it's security seat.

1987 Marshal law is lifted and free elections are allowed in Taiwan. The KMT rules until the early 21st century and then loses elections against an indigenous Taiwanese political party known as the DPP (Democratic peoples party).

The KMT is mainly composed of Mandarin Chinese and the DPP is composed of mainly Hoklo speaking Chinese orginally a group of people from Fukien province in middle China. Native Taiwanese feel no real affinity towards the mainland China/Chinese because of their ancestral links of hundreds of years to the island of Taiwan.

Prior to World war II , Taiwan had been a Japanese colony and after the defeat of the Japanese the United States handed over Taiwan to the R.O.C/KMT , it was until around 1948-9 when the KMT began their route from China did they begin to retreat to Taiwan and impose Marshal law on the indigenous Taiwanese people . 2 million soldiers came over from China, disrupting social order for the Taiwanese who at the time were of more Japanese disposition and cultural make-up, spoke Japanese / educated etc for 75 years prior to the Mandarin Chinese arrival upon Taiwan.

20.000 people or more killed in anti-KMT uprising, known as the 228 incident. By Chiang-kia-shek and his crony's .

1949 the Peoples republic of China is formed in China . the Republic of China R.O.C is established as a colonial government on Taiwan, what follows is marshal law until it's lifting in 1987 by Chung'jing'kuo , Chiang's son.

Now to finish it off......

Not once in the period since 1949 has the P.R.C government ever been to Taiwan, not once has their flag flown from any building in Taiwan.

The P.R.C is lying to the world and what is happening in Taiwan is very similiar historically to what happened in Nazi germany is the 1930's , the olympic games being used as a propaganda tool and the Chinese PRC flexing its military muscle to attack a weaker country under the guise of newer form of Lebensraum , the world is ignoring the unalienable rights of 22 million people to be recognized by the UN and avert a war that could be quite catastrophic not only to Taiwan but to the entire security of the Asian Pacific and the United States long term historical goals in this region, if the worlds 14th largest economy falls to China , it will effect the U.S economy and will boost mainland China's , not to mention all of the American weapons that have been sold to Taiwan and then will be used by China to threaten the rest of the world with.

The Taiwanese people of Taiwan have been free since 1987 and the world needs to wake up and stop pandering to dictators. Taiwan is a democratic country and its people are very open and it is not like North Korea and it is not like Iran, and even these countrys are recognized by the U.N

Taiwan IS independant, Taiwan IS a country, it has its own military, money and flag, its own borders and not once has the PRC been able to excerise any control over the island. At all period.

The status quo could mean anything in this particular case.
The status quo means: don't fiddle around with pieces of paper that could mean our lives and livelihoods being put at risk.

Taiwanese people probably make up one of the largest group at my university. I have a Taiwanese co-worker. I have spoken to probably more than a dozen of them about this situation - and I have yet to hear a single person who thought it a good idea to risk the country for something as stupid as this.

The only people who think so are die-hard nationalists...and chicken hawks from across the pond who've got no stake in the issue.

According to polls in Taiwan, only 30% support having relations with US, apparently, the Taiwanese are mad with America not doing anything to help Taiwan. (besides arming Taiwan.)

My dad was in Taiwan when President Carter withdrew recognitition from Taiwan and recognized China as the real China. As they told him, "we are not mad at you just send us Mr. Peanut Butter."

And I want to see the full poll plus breakdown.

The status quo means: don't fiddle around with pieces of paper that could mean our lives and livelihoods being put at risk.

Taiwanese people probably make up one of the largest group at my university. I have a Taiwanese co-worker. I have spoken to probably more than a dozen of them about this situation - and I have yet to hear a single person who thought it a good idea to risk the country for something as stupid as this.

The only people who think so are die-hard nationalists...and chicken hawks from across the pond who've got no stake in the issue.

One will never know. It is going to be very interesting to watch though.

Hmmmmm, so an armed group starts a war against the government of China, and they are not rebels? According to merriam-webster, a rebel is someone who is "opposing or taking arms against a government or ruler". Sorry Sel, but i'm going to have to go with m-w on this one.

Fixed for Goofballiancy. Aerial indicates that it's mobile already anyway.

http://www.tomandjerryonline.com/sounds/touche2.wav

Yeah, but so many people here say that "Taiwan" is asserting its sovereignty, and people tell me it's because "they" want to "live in an open society".

That sort of talk seems to me to be no more valid than asserting that just because Cheney and Bush are not impeached the people of America love them.

This is a case of a parliament majority acting against the will of the actual majority of the population on a matter that could significantly impact the living standards and livelihoods of everyone in the country. I have to think very hard to imagine anyone at all who would actually be better off as a result of this policy, but it seems quite easy to think of people who'll be worse off.

Yet many here seem to be applauding the decision and ranting on about how evil China is, as though it had anything to do with whether or not this is good policy.

But it would be a perfectly fine policy for any nation to declare it's independence, this would be the case for Taiwan as well, if it weren't for China being a bastard. I agree that it is stupid to do, considering they basically do have independence just not recognized by many countries, and that this could only piss off China, but also because it's against the will of the people (supposedly).

Hmmmmm, so an armed group starts a war against the government of China, and they are not rebels? According to merriam-webster, a rebel is someone who is "opposing or taking arms against a government or ruler". Sorry Sel, but i'm going to have to go with m-w on this one.

Oh, get your head out of that hole and learn a bit of history!

The Kuomintang government was the ORIGINAL post-Imperial Chinese government. It was also known as the Republic of China.

In the 1940s, Mao's People's Liberation Army kicked their corrupt asses out of Beijing and founded the People's Republic of China. They drove the Natonalist/Kuomintang forces competely off the mainland, but didn't have the resources to pursue when the Kuomintang and their supporters retreated to Taiwan. Since then the Republic of China has continued to exist on Taiwan; but of late, the Kuomintang Party lost control of the government, and the new team wants to rationalize the situation by declaring themselves an independent country and renouncing their claim to rule China.

So, if any country is the rebel, it is actually China. Not that I begrudge them their well-earned victory, even if they are acting the dick now.

It isn't too hard to anwser the question why the current Taiwanese administration seems to push the independence agenda forward even though they risk an overstretched US army that might not be able to come to their aid.

That anwser is elections. It won't be too long before Taiwan can start to vote again and there is a significant chance that president Chen will see his party be crushed at the polls for what many people see as pre-shennanigans.
Maybe it isn't a pre-election trick and president Chen really believes in indepence or maybe he wants to leave a lasting image as the president that succesfully made Taiwan independent.

In any case current polls show that most Taiwanese are tired of the current administration and the KMT should win the next election with ex-mayor Ma as a likely candidate who strongly supports the status quo.

I say wait until next election and things should cool down again.

Besides, most Taiwanese that I've met still see themselves as essentially Chinese. They speak a mainland dialect, they have chinese values, have chinese culture and are mostly proud of the current economic succes that China enjoys.

They just don't want to be ruled by the polit-buro (who would?), but I sincerely doubt that most Taiwanese want to give up the status-quo for ideology (because quite frankely, thats all what indepence will give the Taiwanese. They would still enjoy the same freedom, go to any nation they want to for holidays, but they would suffer a major economic meltdown and suffer a possible militairy strike. All this for indepence that most people in Taiwan don't even want or need? Excuse me, but I think indepence here is pretty stupid and undemocratic even. President Chen is no better than the communists if he pushes this down his nations throat).

Oh, get your head out of that hole and learn a bit of history!



Which is something most people here at the forum should do.
Even worse I feel that in this particular topic, many people seem to shove down their own views of what is right in this world.

"Independence for everyone! Now for only $3.99 at your local McDonalds!"

Yet only few people ask themselves if they even want to give up the status quo which seem to serve most people on Taiwan quite well.

Which is something most people here at the forum should do.
Even worse I feel that in this particular topic, many people seem to shove down their own views of what is right in this world.

"Independence for everyone! Now for only $3.99 at your local McDonalds!"

Yet only few people ask themselves if they even want to give up the status quo which seem to serve most people on Taiwan quite well.

Eminently so. A question only the Taiwanese can answer.

So if there is a nuclear war between China, U.S.A and Russia then Australia and the South American countries will become pre-eminent?

*Plots the takeover of the world with the Twin Continent Alliance*
There could be an Australian Empire!

Yea



Well South America and Australia probably. Europe and Parts of Africa would suffer fall out.

So if there is a nuclear war between China, U.S.A and Russia then Australia and the South American countries will become pre-eminent?

*Plots the takeover of the world with the Twin Continent Alliance*

There could be an Australian Empire!

At least the government of the Solomon Islands will be proven right...

Eh... China won't attack Taiwan, because if they do, they lose their biggest trading partner, and their economy, which is currently larger than it really is, will collapse. Moreover, the international sanctions on China (and, frankly, the international response, once China breaks status quo and actually attacks Taiwan) would be devastating to China.

Yeah, the world prefers One China, but that's because One China is seen as a means of avoiding international war. Once China attacks, international opinion will be against it.

Couple of observations.

A poster said China has “no real land claim” against the Taiwan.
Actually not only do they have have “claim” it is a baseline in PRC policy to see it eventual zed. This side contends that if you examine the period before WWII during, and right after the PRC thinks it is clear as daylight that the island is nothing more then a political vacuum transferred from defeated Japan, to America to Chiang Kai-Shek

National unification is fundamental to the PRC and anybody who thinks otherwise is not being considerate of what the PRC has learned from its long and often tattered history of being torn about from within and then being carved apart by outside intervention.
“Disunification=instability” to the PRC. Look at Macau (Portuguese intervention) & Hong Kong(English intervention) for examples of how national unification is an exercised baseline in Chinese policy.

Several posters commented on the United States position on the matter. If America would “stick” their noses into it.
Actually America has outlined its position rather fully and it has been generally maintained. One can see this in three documents, not mind you another set of docs called The Three Communiqués. The Three Communiqués deal with US PRC relations mainly and are generally outside this discussion

-The first and most major Act being the Taiwan Relations Act,
-The Second was the Joint Communiqué or Third United States - China Joint Communiqué
Of which Six Assurances were outlined
-The third, Taiwan Security Enhancement Act

All of these acts generally reinforce America’s commitment to SELLING arms to Taiwan; recognize the One-China Policy-and ALLOW FOR the peaceful transition of Taiwan back to China, without military intervention.

It should be noted that every American president since Nixon has gradually through incremental practice signified in oral and written communication Americas position regarding Taiwan transitioning back to the PRC as an eventuality as long as it is done without the use of force





Moving on…A poster wrote about the need to preserve
“Preserve democracy and civil rights in Taiwan, “It should be noted that Taiwan has the distinction of having had up to 1987 the longest period of martial law in modern history

Lastly,

Economic linkages (Read Joseph Nye and Robert Keohane on the topic of Complex Interdependence) suggest that states and their fortunes are inextricably tied together. Many believe war is reduced between the Mainland and the ROC because the two economies are so strongly intertwined, and the economic interests of other state actors, (IE, America, Japan, Germany) and nonstate actors, (the EU, APAC) that war between the two is equal economic suicide.

Hard headed is the American way. :p

That's something about brute force...if it's not working, you're not using enough.

Couple of observations.

A poster said China has “no real land claim” against the Taiwan.
Actually not only do they have have “claim” it is a baseline in PRC policy to see it eventual zed. This side contends that if you examine the period before WWII during, and right after the PRC thinks it is clear as daylight that the island is nothing more then a political vacuum transferred from defeated Japan, to America to Chiang Kai-Shek

National unification is fundamental to the PRC and anybody who thinks otherwise is not being considerate of what the PRC has learned from its long and often tattered history of being torn about from within and then being carved apart by outside intervention.
“Disunification=instability” to the PRC. Look at Macau (Portuguese intervention) & Hong Kong(English intervention) for examples of how national unification is an exercised baseline in Chinese policy.

Several posters commented on the United States position on the matter. If America would “stick” their noses into it.
Actually America has outlined its position rather fully and it has been generally maintained. One can see this in three documents, not mind you another set of docs called The Three Communiqués. The Three Communiqués deal with US PRC relations mainly and are generally outside this discussion

-The first and most major Act being the Taiwan Relations Act,
-The Second was the Joint Communiqué or Third United States - China Joint Communiqué
Of which Six Assurances were outlined
-The third, Taiwan Security Enhancement Act

All of these acts generally reinforce America’s commitment to SELLING arms to Taiwan; recognize the One-China Policy-and ALLOW FOR the peaceful transition of Taiwan back to China, without military intervention.

It should be noted that every American president since Nixon has gradually through incremental practice signified in oral and written communication Americas position regarding Taiwan transitioning back to the PRC as an eventuality as long as it is done without the use of force





Moving on…A poster wrote about the need to preserve
“Preserve democracy and civil rights in Taiwan, “It should be noted that Taiwan has the distinction of having had up to 1987 the longest period of martial law in modern history

Lastly,

Economic linkages (Read Joseph Nye and Robert Keohane on the topic of Complex Interdependence) suggest that states and their fortunes are inextricably tied together. Many believe war is reduced between the Mainland and the ROC because the two economies are so strongly intertwined, and the economic interests of other state actors, (IE, America, Japan, Germany) and nonstate actors, (the EU, APAC) that war between the two is equal economic suicide.

Let me guess. Did you just have a class on the relationship between Taiwan and China? Maybe, I don't know, last semester?

No shit. :)

But I did spend some time on it..;)

But I did spend some time on it..;)

If ya did then it is quite obvious that you missed something as Taiwan/Formosa never belonged to China to begin with.

If ya did then it is quite obvious that you missed something as Taiwan/Formosa never belonged to China to begin with.


I, myself did not 'miss' anything as I am only indicating the position of that state.

Several posters commented on the United States position on the matter. If America would “stick” their noses into it.

Yup. Talk about your over-focussed world-views. Let's see. There arises the distinct possibility that a billion plus Chinese could wind up with a full on war, missiles flying, maybe even a nuke or two or ten, deaths in the thousands or tens of thousands or millions or tens of millions. Maybe if they use nukes, chemical, or biological weapons, wind blown toxins could go world wide, and let's not even ask about the destruction to the world economy, or the direct suffering that could be unleashed by a war of this scale. What these people are really afraid of is...

...that the United States might stick its nose it. Oh dear lord, Wenzhou might be a burning ruin, but if the USA were to show up with a relief ship or a fleet of them like after the Indonesian Tsunami, that would be too awful to contemplate.

And if the United States were to actually engage in some arm twisting to avert a major war, as it did to prevent the last India/Pakistani war from happening (though personally I probably would have wanted to see India give Pakistan a major thumping for backing terrorists in northern India, but that's my bad side), oh what a sad and sorry thing!

Hey, just ask the Tutsis or Sudanese or Serbs, you just can't get a good old fashioned blood bath up and running when the damned Americans are all over the place (lord knows the Iraqis have been trying!). Party poopers, the lot of them.

No, what this calls for is serious UN investigation. They can consider holding a meeting to discuss a conference to mull potential future activities to be further studied at a later time.

I don't see why you are upset at me? Also, America generally would be content with the continued selling of weapons to Taiwain and a Taiwain that does not disrupt the world markets-as long as everyone is making money-it does not matter if the cat is black or white-as long as it catches the mouse to the Pentagon.

"And if the United States were to actually engage in some arm twisting to avert a major war, as it did to prevent the last India/Pakistani war from happening "

Actually a couple of postscripts have been written as of late that suggest the pressure came not from state actors, but non-state, transnational corporations in India and throughout the world. The pressure was BUSINESS ECONOMIC LINKAGES according to some of the new briefs out on that.
I think Friedman covered that a bit in the World is Flat.

If ya did then it is quite obvious that you missed something as Taiwan/Formosa never belonged to China to begin with.
Aye, makes no difference now, though. See also Tibet.

Aye, makes no difference now, though. See also Tibet.

Regretably, you are right.

If ya did then it is quite obvious that you missed something as Taiwan/Formosa never belonged to China to begin with.

Er, it did until the Japanese forcebly took it off them.

Have you missed the fact that the Taiwanese population is majority Han Chinese and its government is actually the deposed nationalist government of China, which is why Taiwan calls itself the "Republic of China"? All the PRC is doing is returning the favour. (Not that I don't think the Taiwanese are better off as they are).

Er, it did until the Japanese forcebly took it off them.

Have you missed the fact that the Taiwanese population is majority Han Chinese and its government is actually the deposed nationalist government of China, which is why Taiwan calls itself the "Republic of China"? All the PRC is doing is returning the favour. (Not that I don't think the Taiwanese are better off as they are).

Actually, that's rather simplifying the problem as Taiwan was truly never under China's rule. For a good portion of its history, it was either unruled or under foreign rule. By the late 1800's they renounced their claim to the island and thus Japan invaded and took it over in 1874.

Actually, that's rather simplifying the problem as Taiwan was truly never under China's rule. For a good portion of its history, it was either unruled or under foreign rule. By the late 1800's they renounced their claim to the island and thus Japan invaded and took it over in 1874.

So, yes it was under Chinese rule. I don't see how that's simplifying the problem. And they didn't renounced their claim to the island. The Japanese seized an opportunity for arguing that the Chinese had no claim on a technicality. The Chinese never renounced any claim.

So, yes it was under Chinese rule. I don't see how that's simplifying the problem. And they didn't renounced their claim to the island. The Japanese seized an opportunity for arguing that the Chinese had no claim on a technicality. The Chinese never renounced any claim.

In 1871, an Okinawan vessel shipwrecked on the southern tip of Taiwan and the crew of fifty-four were beheaded by the Paiwan aborigines. When Japan sought compensation from Qing China, the court rejected the demand on the grounds that the "wild"/"unsubjugated" aboriginals （Traditional Chinese: 台灣生番; Simplified Chinese: 台湾生番; pinyin: Táiwān shēngfān) were outside its jurisdiction. This open renunciation of sovereignty led to a Japanese invasion of Taiwan. In 1874, an expeditionary force of three thousand troops was sent to the island. There were about thirty Taiwanese and 543 Japanese casualties (twelve in battle and 531 by endemic diseases).

On a side note, Taiwan was not a part of China until 1683. Prior to that, it was a Dutch Colony.

And just to drive home the point further:

Despite Taiwan being rumored as the fabled "Island of Dogs," "Island of Women," or any of the other fabled island thought, by Han literati, to lie beyond the seas, Taiwan was officially regarded by Qing Emperor Kangxi as "a ball of mud beyond the pale of civilization" and did not appear on any map of the imperial domain until 1683 (Teng 2004:34-59).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taiwan#Early_history

I suggest you consider reviewing your sources. Just because its on Wikipedia does not always mean its correct. In this case even Wikipedia is backing off the cite

Generally, the PRC would justify your argument by saying that Taiwan, like ALL of China was subject to imperial carving, and land grabbing. That it is no different then Portugal in Macau and England taking Hong Kong. That in keeping with this constant, the need for a baseline policy of unification for the PRC is justified based on the past behaviors of other powers.:cool:

I suggest you consider reviewing your sources. Just because its on Wikipedia does not always mean its correct. In this case even Wikipedia is backing off the cite

That's because it is unconfirmed. Even I do not trust Wikipedia and if I ever use it on a History paper, its pretty much a gaurenteed F. For some reason, its an accepted source here.

Oh, get your head out of that hole and learn a bit of history!

The Kuomintang government was the ORIGINAL post-Imperial Chinese government. It was also known as the Republic of China.

In the 1940s, Mao's People's Liberation Army kicked their corrupt asses out of Beijing and founded the People's Republic of China. They drove the Natonalist/Kuomintang forces competely off the mainland, but didn't have the resources to pursue when the Kuomintang and their supporters retreated to Taiwan. Since then the Republic of China has continued to exist on Taiwan; but of late, the Kuomintang Party lost control of the government, and the new team wants to rationalize the situation by declaring themselves an independent country and renouncing their claim to rule China.

So, if any country is the rebel, it is actually China. Not that I begrudge them their well-earned victory, even if they are acting the dick now.


Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. That is the entity that i was mentioning was made war upon by rebels---The Republic of China. In my book, since the official government moved to the island of Taiwan and was never fully defeated.....and the so-called "People's Republic of China" has never declared independence.......then technically, there still is only one China, whose official government is based in Taiwan, with a mainland controlled by rebels.

Hard headed is the American way. :p

We won't stick our nose into it because there will be nothing to stick our nose into. They will not ruin their economy by starting a war and having us cut our ties with them as "best trading partner" status. But if all hell breaks loose then Wal-Mart will actually hurt the most.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. That is the entity that i was mentioning was made war upon by rebels---The Republic of China. In my book, since the official government moved to the island of Taiwan and was never fully defeated.....and the so-called "People's Republic of China" has never declared independence.......then technically, there still is only one China, whose official government is based in Taiwan, with a mainland controlled by rebels.

Ah, sorry. You had it the right way around all the time.

Actually Mao declared the formation of the PRC on October 1st, 1949.

Mao was one side of an internal civil war after the nationalists broke from alliance of convenience with Mao in 28. The Civil War began, then was put on hold so that both sides could fight Japan. After the defeat of Japan the war resumed. The Nationalists got support from Washington-so just to throw salt in that wound-America in 45 aknowledges a civil war in China and supports a side.
Mao's side won. Since you missed October 1st, I figured I'd throw that extra bit in their for ya:p

I heard Taiwan has some of the world's best assault rifles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_91_Combat_Rifle

I heard Taiwan has some of the world's best assault rifles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_91_Combat_Rifle

Well, if this is an improvement on the Type 86, it's probably excellent. The T86 fired very smoothly, with a very controllable climb, and was extremely accurate.

I noticed that the Taiwan army is no match against the Chinese.

Taiwan has the world's oldest Naval submarines

Taiwan has tanks from the 40s and 50s.

Taiwan has jets from the 60s and 90s

Taiwan has very out of date helicopters

Taiwan has very weak air defenses.


Taiwan is going to be in trouble when China comes charging in.

I lived in taiwan for a couple of years actually, I plan on moving back soon.

So, if any country is the rebel, it is actually China. Not that I begrudge them their well-earned victory, even if they are acting the dick now.

Considering China's long history of feudal warfare and dynasty change every now and then, I suppose one could argue that China was run by rebels ever since the Shang dynasty. Technically that is.

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6959789,00.html)

The day before Taiwan announces that they are devloping a missile capable of hitting Chinese Cities and that they have started making missiles to hit Chinese Airbases.LINK (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=531069&lang=eng_news&cate_img=83.jpg&cate_rss=news_Politics_TAIWAN)Much to the anger of the US. Today they state they're going to make a new Constution...

Oh shi...

Go Taiwan.

If China attacks Taiwan which has a defensive military alliance with America, bye bye China economy and military.

Go Taiwan.

If China attacks Taiwan which has a defensive military alliance with America, bye bye China economy and military.

and incidently, the American economy and possibly the asian market to which will affect europe.

Go Taiwan.

If China attacks Taiwan which has a defensive military alliance with America, bye bye China economy and military.
As well as the entire world economy, and potentially thousands of needless deaths along the way.

As well as the entire world economy, and potentially thousands of needless deaths along the way.

Time to test out all those wonderfully wicked weapons we have wasted tax dollars on for so long.:sniper:

As well as the entire world economy, and potentially thousands of needless deaths along the way.

That's why China shouldn't attack Taiwan. They would be entirely responsible for the destruction of the world economy and untold thousands of deaths.

That's why China shouldn't attack Taiwan. They would be entirely responsible for the destruction of the world economy and untold thousands of deaths.

And then can we give them war guilt and lay the ground work for the second sino-planet war?

Are you all that desperate for a war? Are your lives that boring?

The Chinese government has responded with a mildly displeased speech at their party congress. It turns out that the Taiwanese policy for the time being is not quite as clear-cut as the OP's article made it seem either.

War is now even further off the table, and I'm not convinced it was on it in the first place.

Here are some sites about Taiwan


http://michaelturton.blogspot.com/

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/

Time to test out all those wonderfully wicked weapons we have wasted tax dollars on for so long.:sniper:

eh......area 51 is a myth and absolutely does not exist....

:cool: