NationStates Jolt Archive

U.S. Snipers Accused of 'Baiting' Iraqis (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/us-snipers-accused-of-baiting-iraqis/n20070924220409990001#cmntbgn)

If the allegations turn out to be true then what it amounts to is indiscriminate entrapment. The various comments on the page are pretty shameful too, most of them tantamount to "Kill the Ragheads" jingoism that would be right at home here on NationStates General.

That's quite scary, do you think they shoot kids if they pick stuff up? The craziest thing is that it's a country that values it's rifles, if you stick an AK in the middle of the road, someone is going to pick it up, terrorist or not.

They aren't allowed to shoot someone for picking up a rifle. As I understand it, every household is allowed one rifle per combat age male.

*awaits the demented honking from the anti-America goon patrol*

So picking something up off the ground is an act of agression aginst the US armed forces?

Example:
An innocent man picks up a detonation cord, ignorant of what it is, and decides to bring it to one of the US soldiers that come by regularly and ask them about it, but gets killed before he can leave.

Great work guys. Way to defend freedom from curious people and petty thieves.

U.S. Snipers Accused of 'Baiting' Iraqis (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/us-snipers-accused-of-baiting-iraqis/n20070924220409990001#cmntbgn)

If the allegations turn out to be true then what it amounts to is indiscriminate entrapment. The various comments on the page are pretty shameful too, most of them tantamount to "Kill the Ragheads" jingoism that would be right at home here on NationStates General.
The military is brainwashed more than the population to believe all the Arabic people are evil terrorists.

And this "baiting" is bullshit. The Asymmetric warfare center in America should just stop dicking around and declare that soldiers can shoot Iraqis on sight because that is basically what this equates to.

No wonder the insurgency never dies. First, they apply the US culture of "you must have a gun to keep your government in check" and then they apply the republican idea that "If you're not with us, you're against us."

So everyone gets a gun and since few Iraqis are specifically with the US, they are all automatically branded insurgents. Since they have a gun, they're valid targets and well...

Wonderful :rolleyes:

U.S. Snipers Accused of 'Baiting' Iraqis (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/us-snipers-accused-of-baiting-iraqis/n20070924220409990001#cmntbgn)

If the allegations turn out to be true then what it amounts to is indiscriminate entrapment. The various comments on the page are pretty shameful too, most of them tantamount to "Kill the Ragheads" jingoism that would be right at home here on NationStates General.

If you read the article, it's not really clear what the bait was or how this program worked. I know from friends who are over in Iraq that the military uses a variety of tricks to get insurgents to show themselves in order to grease them. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm suspicious of the claim that this program was as simplistic as leaving detonation cord in the street, then shooting whoever picks it up. The American military goes to great pains to avoid shooting non-combatants, and the hearts and minds campaign is something they take seriously. Contrast that with the insurgents who delight in murdering innocent Iraqis by the truckload.

Example:
An innocent man picks up a detonation cord, ignorant of what it is, and decides to bring it to one of the US soldiers that come by regularly and ask them about it, but gets killed before he can leave.


A dollar says these people were at some time exposed to US zero tolerance policy, or will go back and perpetuate it.

So when little Timmy finds a bullet and brings it to the headmaster, little Timmy better go in with a ballistic vest and helmet.

Startling resemblance no?

:p

The American military goes to great pains to avoid shooting non-combatants, and the hearts and minds campaign is something they take seriously.

You mean like letting off rapists and murderers (pre-planned, with guilty convictions), after 2 months with a laugh?

Yeah, real serious there. Mental institute serious. Or maybe firing squad serious.

A dollar says these people were at some time exposed to US zero tolerance policy, or will go back and perpetuate it.

So when little Timmy finds a bullet and brings it to the headmaster, little Timmy better go in with a ballistic vest and helmet.

Startling resemblance no?

:p

It's because zero tolerance requires zero thought, an soldiers that don't think are the best at carrying out orders.

You mean like letting off rapists and murderers (pre-planned, with guilty convictions), after 2 months with a laugh?

I don't know what you are talking about here. Care to give more details?

*awaits the demented honking from the anti-America goon patrol*

You're insinuating that one has to be anti-American to be against the war, to be against shooting random civilians or to be against what Bush is doing, which is NOT making your country safer?

You're insinuating that one has to be anti-American to be against the war, to be against shooting random civilians or to be against what Bush is doing, which is NOT making your country safer?

I'd like to reply, but apparently you can do that for me. So since I'm conservative, in the literal not political sense, I will now step down and let you argue with yourself ad infinitum.

Enjoy. :)

I'd like to reply, but apparently you can do that for me. So since I'm conservative, in the literal not political sense, I will now step down and let you argue with yourself ad infinitum.

Enjoy. :)

No, really, do tell me how being against certain American actions makes one "anti-American". I have yet to see people here call for the downfall of your country. Yet you're waiting for "the usual anti-America crowd", so...

This is probably the most blatant abuse of civilians I've heard of since the last abuse of civilians by commanding officers and however follows them.

No, really, do tell me how being against certain American actions makes one "anti-American". I have yet to see people here call for the downfall of your country. Yet you're waiting for "the usual anti-America crowd", so...

Words that come from your imagination and not my fingers. All I said was what I thought, that this made me scratch my head, and that trolls exist on both sides of the political spectrum. Nowhere did I say...

You're insinuating that one has to be anti-American to be against the war, to be against shooting random civilians or to be against what Bush is doing, which is NOT making your country safer?

Surprise! I'm against the war, I'm a left leaning centralist, but if you want to paint me as a right winger for your pathetic witch hunt then go ahead. Personally it gives me the chance to be a sarcastic prick, which I enjoy to no limit.

Click Stand;13082677']This is probably the most blatant abuse of civilians I've heard of since the last abuse of civilians by commanding officers and however follows them.

It's getting slightly better. I doubt we'll see anything on the scale of Nanking, but civilians will always get the shaft during wartime. That's the nature of war after all, and why it's bad.

No, really, do tell me how being against certain American actions makes one "anti-American". I have yet to see people here call for the downfall of your country. Yet you're waiting for "the usual anti-America crowd", so...

Well it's easy to bring up the anti-American card in NSG because the people that usully post the most are anti-American. I say that because the people that are anti-American don't offer constructive and helpful debate, they just mindlessly insult America, what we do, and who we are.

Debate and disagreement: okay
Insult: gtfo

Well it's easy to bring up the anti-American card in NSG because the people that usully post the most are anti-American. I say that because the people that are anti-American don't offer constructive and helpful debate, they just mindlessly insult America, what we do, and who we are.

Debate and disagreement: okay
Insult: gtfo

So you're claiming that the 70% of Americans that want America to gtfo Iraq are anti-American? I'm pretty sure they aren't saying "okay", and, right now, what America, or at least the group that hijacked it, is doing is pitiful.

So you're claiming that the 70% of Americans that want America to gtfo Iraq are anti-American?

You can't just develop an arguement by assuming someone is insinuating something because it just comes out wrong.

A = B
B = C

X =/= 3

Your logic is off.

So you're claiming that the 70% of Americans that want America to gtfo Iraq are anti-American? I'm pretty sure they aren't saying "okay", and, right now, what America, or at least the group that hijacked it, is doing is pitiful.

No, I'm claiming that the people that usually post the most are anti-American. I think Iraq is bad and I want the troops out too. But the people that debate the war, they are okay in my eyes. Those that just mindlessly insult the government, they aren't doing anything worthwhile. And I didn't even attempt to say that the anti-war people were saying "okay." I don't even know where you got that from.

No, I'm claiming that the people that usually post the most are anti-American. I think Iraq is bad and I want the troops out too. But the people that debate the war, they are okay in my eyes. Those that just mindlessly insult the government, they aren't doing anything worthwhile. And I didn't even attempt to say that the anti-war people were saying "okay." I don't even know where you got that from.

They are insulting the government for what it did and does. Would it be anti-Chile back in the 80s to insult Pinochet as the evil dictator that he was?

They are insulting the government for what it did and does. Would it be anti-Chile back in the 80s to insult Pinochet as the evil dictator that he was?

Would that excuse someone for hating Chileans all together?

*awaits the demented honking from the anti-America goon patrol*
So in effect you're saying that anyone who condemns this action is Anti-American.
Interesting.
Therefore, we must assume, in your mind at least, that this action (delibrately killing civilians) is not Anti-American and perfectly acceptable.
very interesting.
You think Americans are terrorists and happily engage in brutal terroristic activities.
How delightful of you. What a nice person you are.

So in effect you're saying that anyone who condemns this action is Anti-American.
Interesting.
Therefore, we must assume, in your mind at least, that this action (delibrately killing civilians) is not Anti-American and perfectly acceptable.
very interesting.
You think Americans are terrorists and happily engage in brutal terroristic activities.
How delightful of you. What a nice person you are.
To hold a people responsible for the actions of their military is perfectly legitimate, I mean it's not our fault that the US military has unaccountability and transparency issues, the American people elect the government that doesn't reform the military, so the accountability back to the people is an easy jump to make.

They aren't allowed to shoot someone for picking up a rifle. As I understand it, every household is allowed one rifle per combat age male.

*awaits the demented honking from the anti-America goon patrol*

Well I'm glad the doings of your nations armed forces give you a chance to redirect your aggression against valid criticism of a fairly stupid policy.

To hold a people responsible for the actions of their military is perfectly legitimate, I mean it's not our fault that the US military has unaccountability and transparency issues, the American people elect the government that doesn't reform the military, so the accountability back to the people is an easy jump to make.

The claims that America isn't a democracy are now noticeably absent, I see.

So in effect you're saying that anyone who condemns this action is Anti-American.
Interesting.
Therefore, we must assume, in your mind at least, that this action (delibrately killing civilians) is not Anti-American and perfectly acceptable.


No, moron.

Well I'm glad the doings of your nations armed forces give you a chance to redirect your aggression against valid criticism of a fairly stupid policy.

See above.

Putting words in someone else's mouth is a good way to make yourself look like an asshole. Rather than taking half a second to think you jumped into: "OMG IS ZOMEONE GOING TO DEFEND AMERICA AND ITS BABY KILLING!!! I MUST POST!!!!"

No, moron.



See above.

Putting words in someone else's mouth is a good way to make yourself look like an asshole. Rather than taking half a second to think you jumped into: "OMG IS ZOMEONE GOING TO DEFEND AMERICA AND ITS BABY KILLING!!! I MUST POST!!!!"


You posted a comment that could well be seen as "flamebait" and indeed pre-empted the inevitable backlash. You then proceed to complain about this backlash in a forthright manner. Thus, you've unleashed your aggression, whatever might be its root. I rest my case.

You posted a comment that could well be seen as "flamebait" and indeed pre-empted the inevitable backlash. You then proceed to complain about this backlash in a forthright manner. Thus, you've unleashed your aggression, whatever might be its root. I rest my case.

Hardly. You assumed I meant, when in fact it was directed towards any "America is ebil!" posters who would inevitabily arrive. Low and behold this is offensive to some of you because you actually hold this position.

So ?

Is it like selling chemical weapons to a country and then accuse that same country it is having chemical weapons?

ROFLMAO !
Yeah, I can clearly see how this is 'proof' of a 'secret program'..
Clearly , when the military operates a secret program, they immediately expose the program by arresting the operatives and charging them with murder, because the only other thought might be that ...ooh, gee- the guy who was arrested for murder might be LYING to avoid going to LEAVENWORTH for murder ?!?
Yeah, it must be nice to be so anti-american that it's easier to believe that being arrested for murder is proof that you're honest than it is to believe the military arrested these guys because we DON'T condone their actions !

Hardly. You assumed I meant, when in fact it was directed towards any "America is ebil!" posters who would inevitabily arrive. Low and behold this is offensive to some of you because you actually hold this position.
So, you posted something, knowing it would offend any "America is ebil" posters? So basically you're a troll?
ROFLMAO !
Yeah, I can clearly see how this is 'proof' of a 'secret program'..
Clearly , when the military operates a secret program, they immediately expose the program by arresting the operatives and charging them with murder, because the only other thought might be that ...ooh, gee- the guy who was arrested for murder might be LYING to avoid going to LEAVENWORTH for murder ?!?
Yeah, it must be nice to be so anti-american that it's easier to believe that being arrested for murder is proof that you're honest than it is to believe the military arrested these guys because we DON'T condone their actions !

It must be nice to be so pro-American that you assume guilt on the part of someone who critices the Army.

And if that soldier had been given orders to bait Iraqis, then what makes you think that the people who arrested him knew that? Is every single order given made known to everyone in the military?

So, you posted something, knowing it would offend any "America is ebil" posters? So basically you're a troll?

Only against the left wing, had I said: *awaits Corny's tired rebuttal defending the evil empire*

It would have been completely disregarded. Fucking double standards.

Hardly. You assumed I meant, when in fact it was directed towards any "America is ebil!" posters who would inevitabily arrive. Low and behold this is offensive to some of you because you actually hold this position.


So you cast a wide net, label any who fall therein "America is ebil!" posters, and take it out on them.....I'm failing to see how this makes me any less right and you any less an attention seeker....

So you cast a wide net, label any who fall therein "America is ebil!" posters, and take it out on them.....I'm failing to see how this makes me any less right and you any less an attention seeker....

I'm taking it out on people, who said shit like this:

So in effect you're saying that anyone who condemns this action is Anti-American.

You're insinuating that one has to be anti-American to be against the war, to be against shooting random civilians or to be against what Bush is doing, which is NOT making your country safer?

I'm pissed because I never said anything even remotely along those lines. So even being assumed to support America has so far branded me: pro-civilian killer, troll, and flame baiter.

I'm not even fucking supporting this, I'm just confused as their are standards in the military that contradict this.

I'm not even fucking supporting this, I'm just confused as their are standards in the military that contradict this.

At the end of the day, these allegations are being made by defendants in a murder case. They have very good motivation to lie and claim that what they did was in line with military policy. I seriously doubt the actual policy was as simple as "leave stuff in roadway and shoot whoever picks it up."

The American military does an incredible job in teaching its soldiers the laws regarding how to treat prisoners and noncombatants. Their rules of engagement in Iraq are restrictive (I would say, too restrictive) in order to ensure that civilian casualties are kept to a minimum. American officers are highly trained, intelligent and educated- I would bet that, on average, they are smarter and better educated than the posters on this site.

At the end of the day, though, this is a war zone. Sometimes mistakes get made, and individual soldiers do bad things, whether through negligence or because they're asshats. But that's not American military policy.

The American military does an incredible job in teaching its soldiers the laws regarding how to treat prisoners and noncombatants.

Yep, theres been memo upon memo about the difference between sleep deprivation and "sleep management".......Just so nobody was confused....

Yep, theres been memo upon memo about the difference between sleep deprivation and "sleep management".......Just so nobody was confused....

Under international law, the prisoners in question do not qualify as legal combatants. They are, therefore, not subject to the protections given legitimate prisoners of war.

The US military treats them better than they are entitled to, simply as a nicety. But "sleep deprivation" or "sleep management" are mild to what could legally be done with illegal combatants. In WWII, battlefield executions were the norm. We could go back to that, if you'd like.

Oh, nice. I'm sure that this is totally endearing the Iraqi public to the American cause. Oh yes.

Yes...The americans are certainly winning their "war for hearts and minds".

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/LAW/06/14/prison.abuse.england/vert.story.private.lynndie..jpg

The US military treats them better than they are entitled to, simply as a nicety. But "sleep deprivation" or "sleep management" are mild to what could legally be done with illegal combatants. In WWII, battlefield executions were the norm. We could go back to that, if you'd like.

In WWII, we n00ked a nation. In WWII, there were massive tank battles *Kursk, Kiev, etc*. In WWII, there were battles involving millions *Stalingrad, Leningrad* Do you see millions of US soldiers running around Iraq? Times have changed. You want to go back to that? WWII =/= Iraqi War

That's the most stupid tactic I have ever heard of. If anything, they should surround the Iraqi who picked it up and question him. Not shoot him, dammit. Army should know better.

That's pretty fucking dense that a lot of people are saying all US Troops are Brainwashed.

Their conditioned to accept death and violence, but they're not convinced by the Military and Government it self that all Iraqis/Arabs/Persians/Etc are Terrorists.

Fucking retards, go die in a ditch. Seriously, you stupid pieces of shit.

Baiting is considered unsportsmanlike.

Yep, theres been memo upon memo about the difference between sleep deprivation and "sleep management".......Just so nobody was confused....

Are you saying that there is a problem with not letting captured people sleep for a few days?

Sleep deprivation is a great tool for finding info out.

Being a Marine, I've been through many days without sleep. Its not a big deal. Loud music and no sleep..... sounds like my weekends.

Oh wait I guess thats "touture" to some of you people.

Also with saying that we people in the military are trained to think that all Arabs/Muslims/Whatever are terrorists is a blatant lie. In fact its the other way around, during training if we use words like raghead or hajii we will get our asses chewed for not being culturally sensitive. Because in Iraq you could piss a shiek off that will make your life hell. We are also trained in various other culturally sensitive things, like not showing your feet and never talking to a woman before talking to the man around even if its a five year old boy.

We go through more training in dealing with Iraqis then I could have imagined.

Being a Marine, I've been through many days without sleep. Its not a big deal. Loud music and no sleep..... sounds like my weekends.


Can I test it out on you then? For oh, maybe 150-200 hours long. I want to see how long your sanity lasts before it breaks.

Thats really stupid for the snipers to be "baiting"

It doesn't matter because someone will pick up the gun, insurgent or not.

Can I test it out on you then? For oh, maybe 150-200 hours long. I want to see how long your sanity lasts before it breaks.

Sure, I'd love to see if I could function with no sleep for 4 or more days. I've done 3 before and that with a lot of hard work. These guys get to sit around.

As we always say...... sleep is a crutch. Where do you get your numbers of 150-200 hours of no sleep?

Shit, I'll get about 4 hours of sleep tonight, then tomorrow we have an 8 mile run. Then the rest of the day I'll be walking around with 60 plus pounds of gear on, when its hot outside. I MUST be being tourtured.

U.S. Snipers Accused of 'Baiting' Iraqis (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/us-snipers-accused-of-baiting-iraqis/n20070924220409990001#cmntbgn)

If the allegations turn out to be true then what it amounts to is indiscriminate entrapment. The various comments on the page are pretty shameful too, most of them tantamount to "Kill the Ragheads" jingoism that would be right at home here on NationStates General.

The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.

Did they get the idea from watching Shane?

Tough job I guess

Sure, I'd love to see if I could function with no sleep for 4 or more days. I've done 3 before and that with a lot of hard work. These guys get to sit around.

As we always say...... sleep is a crutch. Where do you get your numbers of 150-200 hours of no sleep?

Shit, I'll get about 4 hours of sleep tonight, then tomorrow we have an 8 mile run. Then the rest of the day I'll be walking around with 60 plus pounds of gear on, when its hot outside. I MUST be being tourtured.

24 hours in a day. So 200 hours would be about 8 days minus 2 hours. As to where I got the number? I double the maximum limit of those who claim to have gone a few days without sleep. I'd quadruple it, but I'm willing to test 8 days first.

I might also work with sensory deprivation. Probably a 4x4 steel box. Should be fairly interesting to see the results after 8 to 16 days combined with sleep deprivation I imagine.

As to your complaints, you signed up for it. Quit your whining.

Under international law, the prisoners in question do not qualify as legal combatants. They are, therefore, not subject to the protections given legitimate prisoners of war.

The US military treats them better than they are entitled to, simply as a nicety. But "sleep deprivation" or "sleep management" are mild to what could legally be done with illegal combatants. In WWII, battlefield executions were the norm. We could go back to that, if you'd like.

Well seeing as its applied to those caught up in "sweeps", its open to debate how many of those were combatants of any type, illegal or otherwise. As its a method used in conjunction with other nicities, such as water-boarding, beatings, "mock" executions, and subjection to extremes of temperature, rape and/or various forms of humiliation, it doesn't strike me as being the least bit "mild".

With regard to "battlefield executions" there seems to be a few incidents that smell of summary judgement as is.


Oh wait I guess thats "touture" to some of you people..

Actually it is to most people, and rather a lot of Doctors too...Strap you down and subject you to it and you might agree....

"you people"....Who are we, might I ask?


Also with saying that we people in the military are trained to think that all Arabs/Muslims(.....)its a five year old boy. ..

That attitude towards Arabs seems more a problem with American society, rather than just within the military.

Its a shame that your "sensitivity training" didn't cover how invading somebodys country is liable to offend them, killing their relations is liable to piss them off, and dismantling their economy is more than likely going to irritate them no fucking end.....It might have prevented the whole mess in the first place.

And you wonder why us arabs dont like you listen up ok
shia's you ditched for saddam to punish
kurds you ruin their economy and maybe you should make them a nation, that way you might get an ally that actually likes you
sunni well lets see their enemies in charge iran interfering you dont do anything about it and duh saudi arabia who's goverment you should take out i mean really the gave you osama ben laden and oil but the oil isnt worth it
you helped kill lebanese, palestinan, iraqi families, you support isreal, and you keep putting us down, you take our oil when you have your own, and now this?!?! its a wonder we dont all join the chinese against you in world war 3, oh and those moderates you like so much are western educated and seen as your puppets because they have to do what you say, and i really hate bush for iraq, gaza and lebanon go to hell american goverment, but i really love philly cheese steaks, chili fries and chicago style pizza, USA FOOD ROCKS

In WWII, we n00ked a nation. In WWII, there were massive tank battles *Kursk, Kiev, etc*. In WWII, there were battles involving millions *Stalingrad, Leningrad* Do you see millions of US soldiers running around Iraq? Times have changed. You want to go back to that? WWII =/= Iraqi War

Of course not. And our treatment of illegal combatants in this war are much better than what captured illegal combatants could expect in WWII.

In WWII, the best an illegal combatant could expect, from all sides, would be a quick battlefield execution. Illegal combatants have few, if any, rights under the laws of war.

In WWII, the best an illegal combatant could expect, from all sides, would be a quick battlefield execution. Illegal combatants have few, if any, rights under the laws of war.

In WWII, illegal combatants were known as guerrilla and resistance forces. They were not identified by uniform. They also actively engaged enemy forces.

In Afghanistan, "illegal combatants" are whatever schmucks the local warlord/tribal leader can round up and toss to the CIA for fat cash bounties on the strength of "We say they are, so pay up".

If I kidnapped you, and shipped you to Afghanistan for sale to the CIA, even counting the warlords split, I'd still make a handsome profit.

24 hours in a day. So 200 hours would be about 8 days minus 2 hours. As to where I got the number? I double the maximum limit of those who claim to have gone a few days without sleep. I'd quadruple it, but I'm willing to test 8 days first.

I might also work with sensory deprivation. Probably a 4x4 steel box. Should be fairly interesting to see the results after 8 to 16 days combined with sleep deprivation I imagine.

As to your complaints, you signed up for it. Quit your whining.


Complaints? never! I love my job I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.

And you wonder why us arabs dont like you listen up ok
shia's you ditched for saddam to punish
kurds you ruin their economy and maybe you should make them a nation, that way you might get an ally that actually likes you
sunni well lets see their enemies in charge iran interfering you dont do anything about it and duh saudi arabia who's goverment you should take out i mean really the gave you osama ben laden and oil but the oil isnt worth it
you helped kill lebanese, palestinan, iraqi families, you support isreal, and you keep putting us down, you take our oil when you have your own, and now this?!?! its a wonder we dont all join the chinese against you in world war 3, oh and those moderates you like so much are western educated and seen as your puppets because they have to do what you say, and i really hate bush for iraq, gaza and lebanon go to hell american goverment, but i really love philly cheese steaks, chili fries and chicago style pizza, USA FOOD ROCKS
I see a lot of "you" in that statement. I didn't do any of those things. The Arabs should give ME a fair chance, like I give them....but they don't need to.
As for some of the crappy things my country has done....name a country that has a perfect record. I want to goto Iraq to help the families to live a better life free from the terror of men like Saddam. Also maybe with some more rights for women. I don't want anything else, I'd like to help the people there.

As for some of the crappy things my country has done....name a country that has a perfect record.
Palau? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palau)

I want to goto Iraq to help the families to live a better life free from the terror of men like Saddam. Also maybe with some more rights for women. I don't want anything else, I'd like to help the people there.
Then why are you in the armed forces?

Then why are you in the armed forces?
He wants to travel to exotic Iraq, the jewel of the Middle-East. He wants to meet interesting people from an old and distinguished culture... and kill them. he wants to be the first kid on my block with a confirmed kill.

(apologies to Stanley Kubrick)

He wants to travel to exotic Iraq, the jewel of the Middle-East. He wants to meet interesting people from an old and distinguished culture... and kill them. he wants to be the first kid on my block with a confirmed kill.

(apologies to Stanley Kubrick)

:D:fluffle:

I want to goto Iraq to help the families to live a better life free from the terror of men like Saddam. Also maybe with some more rights for women. I don't want anything else, I'd like to help the people there.

Then it must be a major headfuck to realise that your country entered a second-world dictatorship and made it far far worse. For the men, the women, and the children.

The American military goes to great pains to avoid shooting non-combatants, and the hearts and minds campaign is something they take seriously.

Of course, but it's a lot easier to get someone's heart and mind if you shoot them first. They struggle less that way.

Related news:


US sniper tells court of order to shoot unarmed Iraqi

In a crowded military courtroom seemingly stunned into silence on Thursday, Sergeant Evan Vela all but broke down as he described firing two bullets into an unarmed Iraqi man arrested by his unit last May. Sergeant Vela, a member of an elite sniper scout platoon, described how his squad leader, Staff Sergeant Michael Hensley, cut off the man's handcuffs, wrestled him to his feet and ordered Sergeant Vela, standing a metre or so away, to fire the nine-millimetre service pistol into the detainee's head.

[...] His testimony, in the court martial of Sergeant Jorge Sandoval, another sniper who is accused of murder, provided a glimpse into the dark moments of a platoon exhausted by days-long missions in the region south of Baghdad that soldiers call the "triangle of death".

In their testimony, Sergeant Vela and other soldiers said their teams were pushed beyond limits by battalion commanders eager to raise their kill ratio. Though sometimes unorthodox, soldiers said, Sergeant Hensley and other snipers around him began racking up many more kills, pleasing the commanders.

Soldiers also testified that battalion commanders authorised a classified new technique that used fake explosives and detonation wires as "bait" to lure and kill suspected insurgents around Iskandariya, a Sunni Arab region south of Baghdad.

As their superiors sought less restrictive rules of engagement - to legalise the killing of anyone who made a soldier "feel threatened", for example, instead of showing hostile intent or actions - the baiting program succeeded in killing more Iraqis suspected of being terrorists, soldiers testified.


(link (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-sniper-tells-court-of-order-to-shoot-unarmed-iraqi/2007/09/28/1190486567003.html))

Now, I wonder whether someone is going to accuse these soldiers of "lying" and "hating the troops" or being "anti-American" for admitting what they've done.

Murdering unarmed prisoners to boast that you've killed more terrorists... The actions of the occupying forces have hit a new low. :(

Now, I wonder whether someone is going to accuse these soldiers of "lying" and "hating the troops" or being "anti-American" for admitting what they've done.

Murdering unarmed prisoners to boast that you've killed more terrorists... The actions of the occupying forces have hit a new low. :(

The legacy of Vietnam's "victory by body count" never really went away did it? Burn down a village here, slaughter a town there, call them all enemies, and high command is happy. And when the press finds out, hush it up, don't prosecute anyone, and if you have to, let them off when nobody's looking.

At least Saddam's death squads were honest, not that it made them any better.

Are you saying that there is a problem with not letting captured people sleep for a few days?

Sleep deprivation is a great tool for finding info out.

Being a Marine, I've been through many days without sleep. Its not a big deal. Loud music and no sleep..... sounds like my weekends.

Oh wait I guess thats "touture" to some of you people.

Also with saying that we people in the military are trained to think that all Arabs/Muslims/Whatever are terrorists is a blatant lie. In fact its the other way around, during training if we use words like raghead or hajii we will get our asses chewed for not being culturally sensitive. Because in Iraq you could piss a shiek off that will make your life hell. We are also trained in various other culturally sensitive things, like not showing your feet and never talking to a woman before talking to the man around even if its a five year old boy.

We go through more training in dealing with Iraqis then I could have imagined.
How things have changed since the 'old' days. I remember the days when Marines used to be a fighting force, not PC police...Just raggin' on you pal. We had a few faults then, too.
Semper Fi...and be careful.