NationStates Jolt Archive

I was eating out with my boyfriend last night, in a small restaurant in Ireland. And I observed something I had seen numerous times before and always wondered about : The couple at the next table were using their forks facing downwards, trying to push their food to the back of it and somehow make it stick. Which was amusing to observe, as he was eating a chickpea dish... it gave him a rather hard time.
Now, I know that this is an English habit, I've heard of it and observed it myself. It seems to be limited entirely to the UK (the couple in question were from Southern England, judging by their accents). So, as my BF is English himself (but doesn't use his fork in that peculiar manner), I decided to ask him about it. I was wondering why it was that the English and only the English decided at some point to use their forks backwards and to spend a lot of time trying to push food on the back rather than scooping it on the front. He didn't know, unfortunately.

So I decided to look online. I've learned some interesting facts about English etiquette, but nothing about the history of the upside-down fork.
Can anybody enlighten me? Do you know where this custom comes from and why it was adopted?

Um, pics/vids plz?

Um, pics/vids plz?

I'll try and see if I can find some...

I'll try and see if I can find some...Thanks, because I have absolutely no idea how they are supposedly using them. I did not think you could screw up using a fork.

I was always taught to eat this way and, unsurprisingly, am English.

I'd say it was a simple means of distinguishing one from the lowlife peasantry, however, many of these strange customs seem to originate in the navy.

For example, I was always told to eat soup tipping the bowl away from me and there was a complicated manner using the spoon that I forget for now.

I was told that was because in a rolling ship, it was better that your soup split onto the table rather than your lovely dress whites.

I'm going to hedge that the fork custom has a similar start but that would take some research, suffice to say, many eating customs of Britain originate with the Navy.

God in his wisdom has provided man with natural forks — his fingers. Therefore it is an insult to Him to substitute artificial metallic forks for them when eating.

Seriously: Stab food with the pointy end, put food in mouth. Simple.

i've seen it done a few times and i've never been to england or anywhere outside of the northern half of the western hemisphere.

my guess would be it has something to do with having been force fed as infants, so that it would appear from their perspective the fork was being used upside down even when it wasn't. and the individuals i've seen doing so, tended to be something less then rocket scientists.

another thing just occurs to me. if a person tends to talk with their arms flaling about, forgetful of whatever might be in their hands at the time, this might be a way to avoid inadvertantly flining whatever was on the fork, in their conversatiese faces or other embarrassing places.

=^^=
.../\...

It was the rather old-fashioned way of 'politely' using a fork that I was told Ishould do as a child. As it was totally pointless I have never bothered with it - especially as my favourite vegetables as a child were peas. You could probably still find this in some Victorian etiquette manual.

Well, the one story I'd heard a while back was that this particular way of handling forks was introduced to distance British table manners from French manners during the Napoleonic wars. I find that a bit hard to believe, though ...

I can find lots of description of the practice online, but no pics so far, sorry Posi.
And no clues as to the origins either...
All I found out is that it must have originated after the 18th century, as that was when the Germans came up with the first curved fork. Before that, they'd been straight.

Its not limited to the UK, it is the custom in most of Europe. Though eating styles have become a lot more casual over the years and many of us have adopted the american style for all but formal occasions.

Think of the position you naturally put knife and fork in to cut a piece of steak. Knife in right hand, fork in left with the tines curved downwards to push into the steak and hold it until knife cuts that portion off.
In the european style the fork simply remains in the same position (tines curved down) while transferring the steak to your mouth. These hand positions are simply applied to the whole meal. Knife permanently held in right hand.
For things that need cut up, like meat, chicken etc (especially if still on the bone) it is actually easier than the American method. For things that need scooped like peas, the American way scores. For things like mashed potatos both ways work easily.

I tend to use either, depending on the meal or the circumstances. American style is much easier for things like casseroles and pies. Euoropean style (once learnt) is actually easier for meat and two veg type dinners.

Its not limited to the UK, it is the custom in most of Europe. Though eating styles have become a lot more casual over the years and many of us have adopted the american style for all but formal occasions.

Think of the position you naturally put knife and fork in to cut a piece of steak. Knife in right hand, fork in left with the tines curved downwards to push into the steak and hold it until knife cuts that portion off.
In the european style the fork simply remains in the same position (tines curved down) while transferring the steak to your mouth. These hand positions are simply applied to the whole meal. Knife permanently held in right hand.
For things that need cut up, like meat, chicken etc (especially if still on the bone) it is actually easier than the American method. For things that need scooped like peas, the American way scores. For things like mashed potatos both ways work easily.

I tend to use either, depending on the meal or the circumstances. American style is much easier for things like casseroles and pies. Euoropean style (once learnt) is actually easier for meat and two veg type dinners.

Er, no.
Sorry, but no.
I happen to be European, and I can honestly say it is an exclusively British custom. Not even the Irish do it.
I've been to (and eaten in) most European countries, and England is the only place I've ever seen people use forks in that manner.

And the "American style" of using knife and fork, I am told, is to cut the food, then put down the knife, take up the fork with the right hand and tranfer it to the mouth. Europeans on the other hand will keep both knife and fork in their hands while eating and use the left hand to bring the fork to the mouth.

Wait a second... you change hands to put the food in your mouth. Wtf is wrong with you crazy people?

Wait a second... you change hands to put the food in your mouth. Wtf is wrong with you crazy people?

Well, this is the explanation I found :

The blunted knives imported from Europe are not so easy to eat with as pointed ones were, so Americans started using the spoon to steady food as they cut and then switch the spoon to the opposite hand in order to scoop up food to eat. The beginnings of what is known today as the zig-zag method.

This distinctly American style of eating continued even after forks became commonplace in the United States.

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Lifestyle/AHistoryofDiningUtensils.htm

They only imported knifes from Europe at that stage, as forks hadn't really caught on yet. (18th century)

I was eating out with my boyfriend last night, in a small restaurant in Ireland. And I observed something I had seen numerous times before and always wondered about : The couple at the next table were using their forks facing downwards, trying to push their food to the back of it and somehow make it stick. Which was amusing to observe, as he was eating a chickpea dish... it gave him a rather hard time.
Now, I know that this is an English habit, I've heard of it and observed it myself. It seems to be limited entirely to the UK (the couple in question were from Southern England, judging by their accents). So, as my BF is English himself (but doesn't use his fork in that peculiar manner), I decided to ask him about it. I was wondering why it was that the English and only the English decided at some point to use their forks backwards and to spend a lot of time trying to push food on the back rather than scooping it on the front. He didn't know, unfortunately.

So I decided to look online. I've learned some interesting facts about English etiquette, but nothing about the history of the upside-down fork.
Can anybody enlighten me? Do you know where this custom comes from and why it was adopted?

PEAS. ROUND. SPOON.

Things like rice and pasta obviously work a lot better American style too and almost everyone use that style for them. Though, having been brought up by anally retentive parents, I can assure you that both are easily possible the other way.

Things like rice and pasta obviously work a lot better American style too and almost everyone use that style for them. Though, having been brought up by anally retentive parents, I can assure you that both are easily possible the other way.

Why would you use a knife to eat pasta?? :confused:

i'm from southern england, and i don't do that. but i know others do. at a guess (as with so many english customs) i think it might be a class thing - upper class use forks in the fancy way. lower classes use them like shovels.

of course, the shovel is more efficient :D

Er, no.
Sorry, but no.
I happen to be European, and I can honestly say it is an exclusively British custom. Not even the Irish do it.
I've been to (and eaten in) most European countries, and England is the only place I've ever seen people use forks in that manner.

I think its becoming less common period, except at formal occasions. But I am Irish and I was brought up to do it. I was at a formal dinner last week (in Ireland), that included French and German representatives, and they all did it.

I think it may be an age thing and that even over here it is dying out as a custom among younger people. Not sure, but it really isn't exclusively English.

I think its becoming less common period, except at formal occasions. But I am Irish and I was brought up to do it. I was at a formal dinner last week (in Ireland), that included French and German representatives, and they all did it.

I think it may be an age thing and that even over here it is dying out as a custom among younger people. Not sure, but it really isn't exclusively English.

Er, how old exacly are you?
I've been to more formal dinners than I care to count in my life, and I've never seen it done except by the British.

You wil often find that many people only eat the fancy way while in public back in the privcy of their own home they will slip back to shoveling the food on the fork

Er, how old exacly are you?

I am 50 - sorry ;)

From cuisinenet.com:
European Style
The European, or "Continental," style of using knife and fork is somewhat more efficient, and its practice is also common in the United States, where left-handed children are no longer forced to learn to wield a fork with their right hands. According to this method, the fork is held continuously in the left hand and used for eating. When food must be cut, the fork is used exactly as in the American style, except that once the bite has been separated from the whole, it is conveyed directly to the mouth on the downward-facing fork. Regardless of which style is used to operate fork and knife, it is important never to cut more than one or two bites at one time.

Now I'm not saying this proves anything - but it does show I'm not alone in my perception of this as a 'european style' and I do assure you I have seen it outside England.

This is the link to the page
http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/use.html

Why would you use a knife to eat pasta?? :confused:

Stabbing ravioli is cathartic?

i'm from southern england, and i don't do that. but i know others do. at a guess (as with so many english customs) i think it might be a class thing - upper class use forks in the fancy way. lower classes use them like shovels.

of course, the shovel is more efficient :D

I think it is a more middle class / petit bourgeoise thing then an upper class thing.

That is a hunch though, and completely lacks any evidence :)

I think it is a more middle class / petit bourgeoise thing then an upper class thing.

That is a hunch though, and completely lacks any evidence :)

It's the way one should eat.

You should never put down one's knife without putting down the fork.

Using a fork like a shovel is just common and only done by those who know no better.

Or at least that's what my parents would say.

well there you go. i'm pretty sure the working class don't particularly care how one "should eat"

i was taught two things when i was a kid - keep your elbows off the table, and don't chew with your mouth open. i follow the latter these days, but bugger the former :P

I think it is a more middle class / petit bourgeoise thing then an upper class thing.

That is a hunch though, and completely lacks any evidence :)

It's the way one should eat.

You should never put down one's knife without putting down the fork.

Using a fork like a shovel is just common and only done by those who know no better.

Or at least that's what my parents would say.

I guess it's my turn to feel a little silly - I eat that way. With my fork pointing downwards at all times during the meal. It's entirely possible to eat basically everything that way, in my experience. (Peas, maybe not so much, but I don't like peas anyway.)

I always viewed it as an etiquette sort of thing. I'm English by heritage, if it helps you prove any point, but I was born and raised in Canada, so that doesn't count for much. :p My boyfriend's whole family eats the same way, and they're Russian/Romanian/very "upper class" sort of people.

i was always told off for 'shovelling' my food as it looks uncouth or something. but frankly it works better for many types of food like special fried rice or whatever where there are no large chunks of stuff to pile stuff on. most meals though i cut off a chunk of meat or veg, stab it on to the fork with the fork upside down, then i'd pile whatever small, unstabbable food stuff there was into the angle created between the chunky food and the fork. much better than the shovelling tecnique. pasta can be eaten quite easily that way to, means you can pile up more sauce onto the pasta. the only time i'd only use a fork and in my right hand for pasta is if i didn't have a table so had to hold the bowl/plate, or if i couldn't find a knife.

well there you go. i'm pretty sure the working class don't particularly care how one "should eat"

i was taught two things when i was a kid - keep your elbows off the table, and don't chew with your mouth open. i follow the latter these days, but bugger the former :P

ha! my mother's main topic of 'conversation' at the dinner table when i was a kid was "ELBOWS!!".

the main advantage of this apparently petty middle-english way of eating to me is it means i eat slower than if i was to shovel with either my left or right hand, which means that i'm less likely to get indigestion and the meal is more relaxed with more time for talking.

ha! my mother's main topic of 'conversation' at the dinner table when i was a kid was "ELBOWS!!".

"Sit up straight," said Mum to Mable,
"Keep your elbows off the table,
Don't eat peas off your fork,
Your mouth is full don't try to talk,
Keep still or you'll fall of your seat,
don't fiddle with that piece of cheese,
If you want more then say 'please,'"

If we kids cause so much fuss,
why do they go on having us?

Why would you use a knife to eat pasta?? :confused:

The dutch do it. We cut up everything *nod* :)

Why would you use a knife to eat pasta?? :confused:

you can use it to stop the pasta slipping away when you stab it, and to pile more sauce on once you've stabbed the pasta.

you can use it to stop the pasta slipping away when you stab it, and to pile more sauce on once you've stabbed the pasta.

That's the problem with you lily livered Euros, when you fucking stab something you make sure it doesn't move afterward! Jeez, didn't your mama ever teach you how to knife fight?! Or in this case fork. :p

That's the problem with you lily livered Euros, when you fucking stab something you make sure it doesn't move afterward! Jeez, didn't your mama ever teach you how to knife fight?! Or in this case fork. :p

Never bring a fork to a knife fight... ;)

Never bring a fork to a knife fight... ;)

A spoon is perfectly acceptable however.

Why would you use a knife to eat pasta?? :confused:

i say you should really use a spoon and a fork to eat pasta.

well, spaghetti, capelli d'angelo or tagliatelle. for other types of pasta its different.

I've seen in on TV a lot. I tried it once, and it was like I was using my right hand!

So, in essence, nobody knows where this odd custom comes from, then?

So, in essence, nobody knows where this odd custom comes from, then?
if wikipedia doesn't know, i don't know ;)

if wikipedia doesn't know, i don't know ;)

No, wikipedia doesn't know. At least I could find nothing on the origins of the custom there, although the custom itself is described in detail in an article called British Etiquette

No, wikipedia doesn't know. At least I could find nothing on the origins of the custom there, although the custom itself is described in detail in an article called British Etiquette

I think you answered it yourself in an earlier post.

When forks were 'invented', they were used as stabbing tools to pick up food in place of the previously used knife. At first they were ridiculed but due to nobility using them - Catherine of Medici brought them to France from Italy - they became associated with nobility.

Hence, it was always the case that you stab with the fork and place directly in the mouth when eating.

Knives therefore became blunted at the point as the fork became the stabbing implement.

This changed in early America - you remember that Britain was the main steel producer of the time as well as official colonists - therefore, blunted knives were exported to America yet the fork was not common as an instrument for most poor immigrants.

Therefore, the spoon was used to steady food while one cut it, yet you still need to use the spoon to scoop the food - you couldn't stab it with either the blunted knife nor the spoon. When the fork became popular, the spoon method of eating continued.

Now, why the English, mostly from the South, seem so pernickety in their refusal to turn the fork for things such as peas etc remains, as oft stated, a mark of 'properness' in comparison with the 'commoner'.

I think you answered it yourself in an earlier post.

When forks were 'invented', they were used as stabbing tools to pick up food in place of the previously used knife. At first they were ridiculed but due to nobility using them - Catherine of Medici brought them to France from Italy - they became associated with nobility.

Hence, it was always the case that you stab with the fork and place directly in the mouth when eating.

Knives therefore became blunted at the point as the fork became the stabbing implement.

This changed in early America - you remember that Britain was the main steel producer of the time as well as official colonists - therefore, blunted knives were exported to America yet the fork was not common as an instrument for most poor immigrants.

Therefore, the spoon was used to steady food while one cut it, yet you still need to use the spoon to scoop the food - you couldn't stab it with either the blunted knife nor the spoon. When the fork became popular, the spoon method of eating continued.

Now, why the English, mostly from the South, seem so pernickety in their refusal to turn the fork for things such as peas etc remains, as oft stated, a mark of 'properness' in comparison with the 'commoner'.

Wouldn't that theory only work if they also didn't turn the spoon around to scoop up things like peas, but rather used the knife to press them onto the back of the spoon? :confused:

Wouldn't that theory only work if they also didn't turn the spoon around to scoop up things like peas, but rather used the knife to press them onto the back of the spoon? :confused:

Not if they'd never used a fork in the first place - all they had to deal with were these blunted knives, which were useless for stabbing.

So the natural technique is to cut the meat holding the knife in your right hand and holding it down with a spoon using your left. To then scoop the meat, you would switch the spoon to enable scooping, possibly using the knife to help shovel food onto the spoon.

Meanwhile, back in Blighty, the nobility were merrily bringing out their specially-encased engraved forks and using the left hand both for stabbing and eating while leaving only the right hand for cutting.

This comes with apologies to those left-handers for whom I'm being an utter rightist - but I care little for you deviants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_etiquette

As a kid, my parents constantly badgered me for "inhaling" my food. I kept replying that I was eating slowly, just at my own pace.

I also got the elbows-on-table rant as well.

And the restless leg syndrome rant.

I never could sit still... always wanting to keep moving.

Knives are for those fancy, rich people who can afford more than one article of silverware per meal. I just use a fork for everything. It makes soup a bit tricky, though, but I'm starting to get the hang of it.