NationStates Jolt Archive

I wouldn't normally suggest reading an article from the the Daily Mail (and I apoligise profusely for doing so), but this one (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=483251&in_page_id=1811) is worth a read. It's about four men from Vanuatu visiting the UK and giving their impressions on the British (and Western) way of life.


At some time today, perhaps when a big sun is sinking behind the jungle-clad mountains, Chief Yata will sit cross-legged under a banyan tree on a Pacific island and tell his people about his journey to a sad and cheerless land far beyond the horizon.

He will describe how the people there lie in the streets with no place to shelter and how those who do have houses hurry to work each morning, unsmiling, in the chase for money.

It is a place, he says, where the culture is upside down, where personal greed, rather than sharing, is the general rule.

Sitting with Chief Yata under the banyan tree will be children, taking in every word with wide-eyed fascination, and old men in loin cloths tutting sorrowfully at the plight of the people who live in that country he visited - a country called Britain.

For Chief Yata has recently returned from taking four tribespeople from their native villages to what we believe is our developed world.


Read the whole thing here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=483251&in_page_id=1811).

Don't worry; it's not all negative... even if this is the Mail, and they have to make people angry at society.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/863/nivaninuklc9.jpg


Ariddia here. I was logged in with the wrong account... and so the post was held for moderator approval. Bah.

Hey, at least we don't eat our foes. Much.

See? It's like I always say; All you need is good food, laughter and to run around naked to be truly happy. :)

Wasn't this a documentary on Channel 4?

I remember seeing a clip for it and this stupid woman asks them if they eat their pets.

And why does Posen look like he has something to cover what could be an erect penis.

Wasn't this a documentary on Channel 4?

I remember seeing a clip for it and this stupid woman asks them if they eat their pets.

And why does Posen look like he has something to cover what could be an erect penis.

Maybe he's hung like a rhinoceros. :p

Maybe he's hung like a rhinoceros. :pWell he doesn't look too happy about it.

Obviously they're just a bunch of Commies...

Vanuatu...the new Red Menace?!?!

And why does Posen look like he has something to cover what could be an erect penis.

I think they're all just holding part of the cameraman's equipment. But maybe there's another reason too for Posen, who knows...


Obviously they're just a bunch of Commies...

Vanuatu...the new Red Menace?!?!

Heh. Actually, it was Vanuatu that came up with the concept of Melanesian socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanesian_socialism) (that Wikipedia article is by me). But it's a concept of Christian socialism, not Marxist socialism.

Hey, at least we don't eat our foes. Much.

You just make them eat British food. I'm not sure which is worse. :D

You just make them eat British food. I'm not sure which is worse. :D
They seemed to like Shepherd's Pie. Seemingly they have good taste :D

where is the part about being descended on by a group of Chavs?
or the part about trying to install the latest game on a 6 month old computer?

SNIP

I think you know a little too much on this matter Mr Ariddia or should I say brother!

seriously though do you do studies on the pacific?

I've never been sure HOW exactly people can be convienced to eat Shepherd's Pie. Much less Shepherd's Pie acompanied by those traditional British boiled-grey french fries/chips.
Erm, eh?

Shepherd's pie = mince and pasta, just replace the pasta with mash and stick that bit on top, and if you're feeling particularly decadent, add some cheese into the mash mixture.

No reason at all to serve it with chips. And our chips aren't boiled-grey, they're erm like chips. As in "potatoes, possibly with a wee bit too much fat, but they're sure as hell not boiled".

They seemed to like Shepherd's Pie. Seemingly they have good taste :D

I've never been sure HOW exactly people can be convienced to eat Shepherd's Pie. Much less Shepherd's Pie acompanied by those traditional British boiled-grey french fries/chips.

seriously though do you do studies on the pacific?

I only started quite recently, so I'm far from being an expert yet, but yes. Fascinating area.

Which hardly anyone else seems to be interested in. :D

These Vanuatu natives can mock the British all they want. It is the British with their global warming Industrial Revolution that will sink the Vanuatu on their sunny, sandy Pacific Island! Who gets the last laugh now! *evil laugh*

You mean that people of one culture, when exposed to one that is alien to them and based on a different value system, react with shock and a bit of revulsion? I am totally surprised. No, seriously, I wouldn't have predicted this at all.
I imagine that if you grabbed a handful of Londoners and thrust them through Vanuatu society they'd return home with their own share of horror stories about the absence of deodorant and how the men keep getting genital rashes off those stupid loin cloths.

I am totally surprised. No, seriously, I wouldn't have predicted this at all.


Who ever expected you to be surprised, or not to predict it? :rolleyes:

Who ever expected you to be surprised, or not to predict it? :rolleyes:
The Mail. They act as if it is some sort of indictment against Western culture that people raised outside of it don't understand it's appeal.

The Mail. They act as if it is some sort of indictment against Western culture that people raised outside of it don't understand it's appeal.

Ah. Yes. Well, that's what the Mail's usual readers seem to want from it. The UK has a number of rags of that kind, and worse.

These Vanuatu natives can mock the British all they want. It is the British with their global warming Industrial Revolution that will sink the Vanuatu on their sunny, sandy Pacific Island! Who gets the last laugh now! *evil laugh*

unfortunately, those damn islanders somehow managed to get themselves a set of islands with a high point of 1879 m. which i believe means you need to sink the entire british isles under 550 meters of ocean before vanuatu goes down. bastards!

unfortunately, those damn islanders somehow managed to get themselves a set of islands with a high point of 1879 m. which i believe means you need to sink the entire british isles under 550 meters of ocean before vanuatu goes down. bastards!

This calls for some French nuclear testing. This will take care of 'em.

The Mail. They act as if it is some sort of indictment against Western culture that people raised outside of it don't understand it's appeal.

Western culture=bad, did you not get the memo?

I'd move to Vanuatu if I could still get Coke and NSG.







And they wouldn't eat my cats.

They seemed to like Shepherd's Pie. Seemingly they have good taste :D

Damn straight.

It's particularly nice if the Mash is buttery as hell, and you put cheddar and red gloucester cheese on top.:cool:

As for the article; no shit.

And they wouldn't eat my cats.

I hear they love cats.

I'd move to Vanuatu if I could still get Coke and NSG.


Out of sheer curiosity, I've looked up how one immigrates to Vanuatu.

Only citizens are entitled to permanent residence. You can acquire citizenship by residing continuously for 10 years in Vanuatu. A 10 year residence permit would cost you 230,000 vatu (i.e., 1,698 €, 1,184 £ or 2,393 US$). (source (http://www.vanuatutourism.com/vanuatu/cms/en/resources/visa_info.html))

I presume they have coke and Internet access in Port Vila, at least.

I'd move to Vanuatu if I could still get Coke and NSG.


Out of sheer curiosity, I've looked up how one immigrates to Vanuatu.

Only citizens are entitled to permanent residence. You can acquire citizenship by residing continuously for 10 years in Vanuatu. A 10 year residence permit would cost you 230,000 vatu (i.e., 1,698 €, 1,184 £ or 2,393 US$). (source (http://www.vanuatutourism.com/vanuatu/cms/en/resources/visa_info.html))

I presume they have coke and Internet access in Port Vila, at least.


Posted this by mistake with my new puppet, and it's being held for mod approval. If it comes through, I'll just delete it.

Having grown up in what was the poorest country in Western Europe and seen it turn into one of the Wealthier, its the same sort of thought comes to my mind - more material wealth =people have less time for people. 10-15 years ago it was very very rare to see anyone below 40-50 homeless. Now its quite common. Fuckers obsessed with cars, and adding useless shite to their houses..load of wank.

Having grown up in what was the poorest country in Western Europe and seen it turn into one of the Wealthier, its the same sort of thought comes to my mind - more material wealth =people have less time for people. 10-15 years ago it was very very rare to see anyone below 40-50 homeless. Now its quite common. Fuckers obsessed with cars, and adding useless shite to their houses..load of wank.

What country is this?

What country is this?

Sounds like Doucheland. I may be mistaken though.

What country is this?

I would guess wales. But that's still shit poor, so he prolly is talking about Ireland.

I would guess wales. But that's still shit poor, so he prolly is talking about Ireland.

He's quite right, but it can't be Wales. We still own it see?:D

I'd either agree with you on Ireland, or go for Portugal or Spain.

He's quite right, but it can't be Wales. We still own it see?:D


Indeed. And rightly so.

But the taffs do like to pretend that they are their own country (except for cricket) so one shouldn't leap to conclusions. Plaid Cymru and all that rubbish.

Indeed. And rightly so.

But the taffs do like to pretend that they are their own country (except for cricket) so one shouldn't leap to conclusions. Plaid Cymru and all that rubbish.

Fuck me they'd be poor as a single country. All the Pot Noodle mines in the world couldn't save them (Best advert ever incidentally).

We did play Wales once at Cricket; well, we played the odd Welsh county pro and any test players from around the world with a Welsh granny. We won I think.

We did play Wales once at Cricket; well, we played the odd Welsh county pro and any test players from around the world with a Welsh granny. We won I think.

Not surprising really. Look at Glamorgan this year. Easily the worst club in the country (including wales).

Probably why wales doesn't really have a cricket team, per se.

Not surprising really. Look at Glamorgan this year. Easily the worst club in the country (including wales).

Probably why wales doesn't really have a cricket team, per se.

They're terrible. Quite why they're hosting an Ashes test in 2009 is beyond me really.

They're terrible. Quite why they're hosting an Ashes test in 2009 is beyond me really.

Speaking as an overseas member of Durham, it's quite a bone of contention with me.

Have they actually sorted out the ground capacity problem yet? Last I heard they were still a bit minor counties.

If I lived in Vanuatu, I'd probably be bored all day. To each his own!

I would guess wales. But that's still shit poor, so he prolly is talking about Ireland.

That would be correct.

Sounds like Doucheland. I may be mistaken though.


Sir, I am no countryman of yours.

facinating. thanks for posting, Aridd. i have to see this program on thursday...


it is interesting, when you "think outside the box" just how sick our culture is. where most people are stressed, unhappy and unfulfilled, there has to be something wrong. i don't have the answers, but i've felt that way for a long time, and it comes as little shock to me that total oustiders to Western culture would see it this way. all the grandeur, fast pace, wealth and power is for naught if the people are not truly happy. like Kasturba Gandhi said, 'what good is the finest cloth if it causes unhappiness for those who make it?'

Speaking as an overseas member of Durham, it's quite a bone of contention with me.

Have they actually sorted out the ground capacity problem yet? Last I heard they were still a bit minor counties.

It's under construction I think. I simply cannot see the point in playing test match cricket, and thus creating the requirement to host regular test matches, at yet another venue; Lords, The Oval, OT, Headingly, Edgbaston and Trent Bridge are more than adequate for purpose, and accessible for the whole country.

*puts another needle in the globe for Vanuatu* *puts another one in for England*

Apart from the fact that I am running out of needles about the parts of the world, Ariddia has posted about in NSG, I do agree that it's interesting to see our culture from a different perspective.

Hey, at least we don't eat our foes. Much.

Nor do we think the Duke of Edinburgh is a god.

That article is so moronic it made my head explode. Pure crap.

That article is so moronic it made my head explode. Pure crap.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

That article is so moronic it made my head explode. Pure crap.

I believe you, because only some poor sod with no brain could post such a pathetic attempt at a refutation.

Nor do we think the Duke of Edinburgh is a god.
Two things that, if taken up, could possibly improve life over here.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Not especially, but since you asked so nicely.. :)

The mail's main concern is in promoting fear of the wider community, fear of group responsibility or sharing and they'd just generally rather you sheltered yourself from the big bad society out there that will try and kill you with knives and guns and immigrants.

So it seems more than strange that these are there very own complaints. And then blaming it on television.

Of course these visitors make no mention of the "violence" of television but the writer goes ahead anyway because the whole thing is just a massive pretense to moan about how modern society is really smelly. What makes these randoms qualified to comment? Are these guys gods? Are their communities really the paradises they are made out to be? Would we really prefer to live there?

"there is calm, laughter, no envy, no greed and the word "mean" does not exist." I see, they are living in a childrens TV show.

Mail Readers are convinced modern society is crap and they want to read stories about it. And they want to read that video games or television are to blame. So the Mail provides those stories, and produces modern day faries to warn them of the folly of the society they hate.

Not especially, but since you asked so nicely.. :)

The mail's main concern is in promoting fear of the wider community, fear of group responsibility or sharing and they'd just generally rather you sheltered yourself from the big bad society out there that will try and kill you with knives and guns and immigrants.

So it seems more than strange that these are there very own complaints. And then blaming it on television.

Of course these visitors make no mention of the "violence" of television but the writer goes ahead anyway because the whole thing is just a massive pretense to moan about how modern society is really smelly. What makes these randoms qualified to comment? Are these guys gods? Are their communities really the paradises they are made out to be? Would we really prefer to live there?

"there is calm, laughter, no envy, no greed and the word "mean" does not exist." I see, they are living in a childrens TV show.

Mail Readers are convinced modern society is crap and they want to read stories about it. And they want to read that video games or television are to blame. So the Mail provides those stories, and produces modern day faries to warn them of the folly of the society they hate.

Much as there might be a kernel in truth in that somewhat cliched rant, which, for that matter, Yootopia does in a more entertaining fashion, one cannot help but feel this is tantamount to jumping on a bandwagon. I have little doubt the likes of you rail against any article cited from either the Mail or Telegraph, decrying them as right wang reactionary poppycock, but then embrace anything pseudo-intellectual #45667 pens in the Guardian.

I'd agree with Sirmomo1 that the Mail's idea that the Vanuatu live in paradise without any conception of meanness is a fantasy, and add that spearing someone to death then eating them is not exactly... sporting, as the article seems to suggest.

I have little doubt the likes of you rail against any article cited from either the Mail or Telegraph, decrying them as right wang reactionary poppycock
Ahh, but the Mail is right-wing reactionary poppycock.

Talking of which:

but then embrace anything pseudo-intellectual #45667 pens in the Guardian.

Much as there might be a kernel in truth in that somewhat cliched rant, which, for that matter, Yootopia does in a more entertaining fashion, one cannot help but feel this is tantamount to jumping on a bandwagon. I have little doubt the likes of you rail against any article cited from either the Mail or Telegraph, decrying them as right wang reactionary poppycock, but then embrace anything pseudo-intellectual #45667 pens in the Guardian.

I don't like the Guardian because it's left wing reactionary poppycock. If The Telegraph wants to promote individuality through promoting lower inherentence taxes (and it does) that's fine. I just hope it doesn't have any articles crying that money has ruined our community spirit.

. I have little doubt the likes of you rail against any article cited from either the Mail or Telegraph, decrying them as right wang reactionary poppycock

So hes not meant to point out the obvious...?

promote individuality through promoting lower inherentence taxes

wha?

The mail's main concern is in promoting fear of the wider community, fear of group responsibility or sharing and they'd just generally rather you sheltered yourself from the big bad society out there that will try and kill you with knives and guns and immigrants.

So it seems more than strange that these are there very own complaints. And then blaming it on television.


True.

Regarding Vanuatu... The Mail does indeed paint a simplistic and rosy picture.

It's true that there are many positive aspects to ni-Vanuatu societies (plural; many people live in small traditional societies and have little interest in the concept of the Vanuatu nation). It's quite true that there is a strong emphasis on sharing and solidarity, meaning you won't go hungry, and you can always count on other people helping you out. In the small "traditional" communities, at least. The Mail conveniently neglects to point out that there's also urban living in Vanuatu, and that some people (though by no means all) flock to Port Vila in search of paid employment and modern conveniances.

Not to mention that there are occasionally political, religious and ethnic tensions. "Traditional" societies also have pressure for social conformity. If you live in a remote area of Vanuatu, you can be sure you'll never be destitute and left to fend for yourself. But it's not a flawless paradise.


"there is calm, laughter, no envy, no greed and the word "mean" does not exist." I see, they are living in a childrens TV show.


The Mail does make it sound that way... In reality, it's a lot more complex. It's much too simple to say that greed and envy are absent; I'd say they're definitely present, although not in the same ways as in the West. It is true that nobody in Vanuatu's "traditional" / "rural" societies is mean, simply because

a) sharing is an unquestioned and fundamental social value, and
b) the more you share, the greater your status and influence in society. Organising large, generous feasts is a means of social advancement. There's also an unescapable emphasis on reciprocity. It's not always "pure" generosity, far from it.

To clarify: I do think it's good to be aware of the way people live in Vanuatu - their social values. I do think there are definitely things we can learn from them. And I do think there are fundamental flaws in Western consumerist societies that can be brought to light by such comparisons. But the Mail's approach is, on the whole, superficial and simplistic.

Yesterday I saw another article on the same topic, in a TV mag. That article's emphasis was that the ni-Vanuatu were curious, interested and often amused by British ways - not simply critical. The Mail has just picked one slant on the story and run with it.


spearing someone to death then eating them is not exactly... sporting, as the article seems to suggest.


Uhm... Cannibalism in Vanuatu ceased in the 19th century.

I'd agree with Sirmomo1 that the Mail's idea that the Vanuatu live in paradise without any conception of meanness is a fantasy, and add that spearing someone to death then eating them is not exactly... sporting, as the article seems to suggest.


Ahh, but the Mail is right-wing reactionary poppycock.

Talking of which:

I don't disagree with his contention in the slightest, however, I do question whether he simply decries the Mail because its terribly in vogue to do so.

As for the Guardian, I challenge you to read Private Eye, find Pseud's corner, and count how many more entries the Guardian can account for than any other publication.

I don't like the Guardian because it's left wing reactionary poppycock. If The Telegraph wants to promote individuality through promoting lower inherentence taxes (and it does) that's fine. I just hope it doesn't have any articles crying that money has ruined our community spirit.

What utter crap. The term "community spirit" belongs in an idealistic New Labour mission statement for new housing. It has not existed for as long as intranational migration has become prevalent, as ought to be evident.

Incidentally, how does the abolition of inheritence dues promote individuality? Thrift, enterprise and endeavour, yes, but individuality? No.

As for the Guardian, I challenge you to read Private Eye, find Pseud's corner, and count how many more entries the Guardian can account for than any other publication.It is my understanding that pseud's corner's purpose is to mock people who delight in the use of verbiage. I have no idea why you, of all people, would want to highlight this as a bad thing.

It is my understanding that pseud's corner's purpose is to mock people who delight in the use of verbiage. I have no idea why you, of all people, would want to highlight this as a bad thing.

Touche. However, I'm 18; I'm allowed(ish) to overwrite on occasions. Journalists should not. Moreover, pseuds corner also draws attention to pseudo-intellectual content; the Guardian writers vegetarian Algerian crockpot being a favourite of mine.

Uhm... Cannibalism in Vanuatu ceased in the 19th century.
I realise this, I meant that the Mail seemed to suggest that when cannibalism was still around in Vanuatu, it was a quite sporting activity:

At least in Vanuatu in olden days the enemy was brought down with a spear and eaten and it was all over and done with. Cruelty has never been a part of their culture.



As for the Guardian, I challenge you to read Private Eye, find Pseud’s corner, and count how many more entries the Guardian can account for than any other publication.
I wasn’t defending the Grauniad‘s (yes, a lot of us read PI...) shockingly bad spelling, punctuation and general editorship, I was saying that the assumption that everybody left of centre reads said paper is (right-wing reactionary) poppycock. I can’t stand any of the broadsheets.

And don’t get me started on the red tops.

I realise this, I meant that the Mail seemed to suggest that when cannibalism was still around in Vanuatu, it was a quite sporting activity:






I wasn’t defending the Grauniad‘s (yes, a lot of us read PI...) shockingly bad spelling, punctuation and general editorship, I was saying that the assumption that everybody left of centre reads said paper is (right-wing reactionary) poppycock. I can’t stand any of the broadsheets.

And don’t get me started on the red tops.

Red Tops truly are dire. When putting supplements in the sunday papers, I am consistently amazed that the People, Star, Sport and News of the World contrive to fill several hundred pages of print with fuck all. The sports journalism, writing style notwithstanding, is actually passable, but the news is a joke.

The broadsheets (so says the Telegraph reader....) are fair enough for me. Even the Grauniad, as silly as it might be, is an interesting and engaging read.

Are there any decent papers in Britain?

Red Tops truly are dire. When putting supplements in the sunday papers, I am consistently amazed that the People, Star, Sport and News of the World contrive to fill several hundred pages of print with fuck all. The sports journalism, writing style notwithstanding, is actually passable, but the news is a joke.
The news for such papers seems to be, “Woman Have Teh Boobs”

Are there any decent papers in Britain?
Personally, I don’t gel with any newspapers, but there’s occasionally good articles here and there: sometimes in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), if you ignore their terrible editorship, spelling and punctuation; sometimes in the Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/), if you ignore their upper-middle class ‘radical’ stance; sometimes even in *gasp* the Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/global/), if you ignore their politics.

But overall, it’s pretty damn poor journalism all round, and mostly op-ed waffle.

Best stick to the handy tubes of the interweb.

Are there any decent papers in Britain?

Private Eye :)

What utter crap. The term "community spirit" belongs in an idealistic New Labour mission statement for new housing. It has not existed for as long as intranational migration has become prevalent, as ought to be evident.

Incidentally, how does the abolition of inheritence dues promote individuality? Thrift, enterprise and endeavour, yes, but individuality? No.

Um, it was their approach and not mine. However, it's hard to deny their two stances are no contradictory

In terms of inheritence taxes, the taxes are part of an idea of 'social responsibility' and 'sharing' - i'm not here to talk of them as good or bad - whereas removing them says that you should own more things privately and individually. I seem to have to clarify a lot - maybe you're determined to have a go at me? - so I'll go further and point out that while there are many arguments against inheritence taxes that aren't from this point of view, this is roughly the point of view of the Mail and the Telegraph as they are by no means libertarians and they're quite happy to interfere with people when it suits them.

Private Eye :)

Telegraph.:D

For that matter, the FT isn't a bad read. They had a fascinating article by Niall Ferguson upon Alan Bennett's "History Boys" a few weeks ago.

Are there any decent papers in Britain?

i like The Times, but mostly stick to the 'net and BBC TV for news