NationStates Jolt Archive

The key tenet of fascism is the ideology of rebirth, or as Roger Griffin put it, palingenetic ultranationalism, the idea that society has become so backward, (or in the case of fascism decadent)and that the only thing to do is to destroy it and start over anew. Hitler believed that the ideologies of materialism, that was liberal capitalism and Marxism were corrosive to the moral disciplined society he envisaged, eventually the only logical conclusion of this was that anyone who holds these beliefs was an 'outsider' to this great society ('the state') and thus was not human.

Lenin developed the theory of fascism as 'capitalist imperialism', that is, it was capitalism in the final stages of decay and imminent collapse, and the only way it could create new markets for capital activity was to invade a country, destroy it, and rebuild, or pillage it's resources to feed the decline. It is true that much of Europe suffered economic consequences from the loss of overseas colonies. This idea of imperialist capitalism and palingenetic ultranationalism are of course two heads of the same beast, except that now in the modern age imperialism can be more subtle, but it is of course still most potent in military action.

The neoconservative ideology is of course similar to this palingenetic radical ideology, except that where the blank slot is which Hitler filled with liberal/jewish capitalism and Marxism, the neoconservative intellectuals decided that their world revolution was about the 'free market', not as an economic policy, but as a model of organization for all mankind. The eventually collapse has of course been slowed by the blocks constantly thrown into it's path to stop the inevitable collapse of the whole rotting edifice. Turbulent markets consume vast resources, and more countries desperately build up massive surplus through compulsory superannuation and other means including foreign private ownership.

The collapse of the Eastern bloc was a welcome event for the capital hegemony, who could now effectively rape the resources to stave off economic debt and decline, the palingenetic ideology of 'destroy it and start over' was literally played out by Yeltsin in 'shock policy' which saw over a million Russians dead, and tens of millions unemployed and thrown into poverty, it was the opening of these new markets for exploitation which was the kick the imperialist hegemony needed to keep going. The imperialist hegemony has made more subtle ways to institute it's palingenetic capitalist revolution the world over than mere military force, especially in the third and second worlds in the name of 'development'.

The CPA in Iraq under Paul Bremer (effectively the dictator of Iraq for his tenure) passed laws initiating this shock palingenetic capitalism, he made 100% foreign ownership of national assets legal and literally made the whole country 'for sale', the results of which we see today. But not only Iraqis should be concerned with the neoconservative 'Cultural Revolution' they have planned them, but indeed for the whole world, and as the 'economic climate' heats up so to speak, it will be interesting to see how dangerous the forces of capital will become as they realize their own decline, and like a rabid animal lashes out.

The key tenet of fascism is the ideology of rebirth, or as Roger Griffin put it, palingenetic ultranationalism, the idea that society has become so backward, (or in the case of fascism decadent)and that the only thing to do is to destroy it and start over anew. Hitler believed that the ideologies of materialism, that was liberal capitalism and Marxism were corrosive to the moral disciplined society he envisaged, eventually the only logical conclusion of this was that anyone who holds these beliefs was an 'outsider' to this great society ('the state') and thus was not human.

Lenin developed the theory of fascism as 'capitalist imperialism', that is, it was capitalism in the final stages of decay and imminent collapse, and the only way it could create new markets for capital activity was to invade a country, destroy it, and rebuild, or pillage it's resources to feed the decline. It is true that much of Europe suffered economic consequences from the loss of overseas colonies. This idea of imperialist capitalism and palingenetic ultranationalism are of course two heads of the same beast, except that now in the modern age imperialism can be more subtle, but it is of course still most potent in military action.

The neoconservative ideology is of course similar to this palingenetic radical ideology, except that where the blank slot is which Hitler filled with liberal/jewish capitalism and Marxism, the neoconservative intellectuals decided that their world revolution was about the 'free market', not as an economic policy, but as a model of organization for all mankind. The eventually collapse has of course been slowed by the blocks constantly thrown into it's path to stop the inevitable collapse of the whole rotting edifice. Turbulent markets consume vast resources, and more countries desperately build up massive surplus through compulsory superannuation and other means including foreign private ownership.

The collapse of the Eastern bloc was a welcome event for the capital hegemony, who could now effectively rape the resources to stave off economic debt and decline, the palingenetic ideology of 'destroy it and start over' was literally played out by Yeltsin in 'shock policy' which saw over a million Russians dead, and tens of millions unemployed and thrown into poverty, it was the opening of these new markets for exploitation which was the kick the imperialist hegemony needed to keep going. The imperialist hegemony has made more subtle ways to institute it's palingenetic capitalist revolution the world over than mere military force, especially in the third and second worlds in the name of 'development'.

The CPA in Iraq under Paul Bremer (effectively the dictator of Iraq for his tenure) passed laws initiating this shock palingenetic capitalism, he made 100% foreign ownership of national assets legal and literally made the whole country 'for sale', the results of which we see today. But not only Iraqis should be concerned with the neoconservative 'Cultural Revolution' they have planned them, but indeed for the whole world, and as the 'economic climate' heats up so to speak, it will be interesting to see how dangerous the forces of capital will become as they realize their own decline, and like a rabid animal lashes out.


AP, please STFU!, I am really getting tired of reading this shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Heh, that's funny. Capitalism isn't close to being on the way out. In fact, the big socialist nation right now is using capitalism to power their economy.

AP, you're to socialism that UB is to Atheism; you make us look stupid.

Try doing some research because this is just mind-numbing tripe.

AP, please STFU!, I am really getting tired of reading this shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

No one is forcing you to read every topic tossed up in this forum.

Surprising to see that you use personal attacks rather than critical thinking, actually not so surprising...

Says the man who just spits propagandic messages out. By the way why did you back out of our last debate again?

AP, please STFU!, I am really getting tired of reading this shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Surprising to see that you use personal attacks rather than critical thinking, actually not so surprising...

The key tenet of fascism is the ideology of rebirth, or as Roger Griffin put it, palingenetic ultranationalism, the idea that society has become so backward, (or in the case of fascism decadent)and that the only thing to do is to destroy it and start over anew. Hitler believed that the ideologies of materialism, that was liberal capitalism and Marxism were corrosive to the moral disciplined society he envisaged, eventually the only logical conclusion of this was that anyone who holds these beliefs was an 'outsider' to this great society ('the state') and thus was not human.

Lenin developed the theory of fascism as 'capitalist imperialism', that is, it was capitalism in the final stages of decay and imminent collapse, and the only way it could create new markets for capital activity was to invade a country, destroy it, and rebuild, or pillage it's resources to feed the decline. It is true that much of Europe suffered economic consequences from the loss of overseas colonies. This idea of imperialist capitalism and palingenetic ultranationalism are of course two heads of the same beast, except that now in the modern age imperialism can be more subtle, but it is of course still most potent in military action.

The neoconservative ideology is of course similar to this palingenetic radical ideology, except that where the blank slot is which Hitler filled with liberal/jewish capitalism and Marxism, the neoconservative intellectuals decided that their world revolution was about the 'free market', not as an economic policy, but as a model of organization for all mankind. The eventually collapse has of course been slowed by the blocks constantly thrown into it's path to stop the inevitable collapse of the whole rotting edifice. Turbulent markets consume vast resources, and more countries desperately build up massive surplus through compulsory superannuation and other means including foreign private ownership.

The collapse of the Eastern bloc was a welcome event for the capital hegemony, who could now effectively rape the resources to stave off economic debt and decline, the palingenetic ideology of 'destroy it and start over' was literally played out by Yeltsin in 'shock policy' which saw over a million Russians dead, and tens of millions unemployed and thrown into poverty, it was the opening of these new markets for exploitation which was the kick the imperialist hegemony needed to keep going. The imperialist hegemony has made more subtle ways to institute it's palingenetic capitalist revolution the world over than mere military force, especially in the third and second worlds in the name of 'development'.

The CPA in Iraq under Paul Bremer (effectively the dictator of Iraq for his tenure) passed laws initiating this shock palingenetic capitalism, he made 100% foreign ownership of national assets legal and literally made the whole country 'for sale', the results of which we see today. But not only Iraqis should be concerned with the neoconservative 'Cultural Revolution' they have planned them, but indeed for the whole world, and as the 'economic climate' heats up so to speak, it will be interesting to see how dangerous the forces of capital will become as they realize their own decline, and like a rabid animal lashes out.

Facism is a society where it is wrong to be different, to think differently, to be different, to say something different, to express things differently. Your authoritarian society is essentially facism in its indictment of those that don't agree with your brainwashing and 'double think' principles.

Arn't eastern european markets among some of the highest growth areas (while western europe suffers economic stagnation)?

Isn't that why the EU is rushing to include more and more of these markets into the union. Those nations were raped during soviet rule, not capitalistic rule.

And how is the idea of free market speeding the decay of capitalism ? Free market is just about removing unatrual barriers of taxation.. not even nessesarly entering new markets.

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on, but not limited to, ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes.
This is a definition out of a wikipedia article but nonetheless I believe it is fairly correct.

I was going to read this...but then I saw who posted it and had a great laugh....then read it anyways and laughed harder...AP...that thing inside your head is called a brain...start consciously using it...it would help you a lot...

http://static.flickr.com/6/69250266_8c1f5c979c.jpg

Ironically, I haven't seen this picture for a long time.

Oh brother. I see AP is at it again. I also see that this thread is going to get hammered. AP, do some research for once in your life. Take alook at Italy and their facist state.

And please try and not invoke the name of Lenin and economy in the same breath. Its laughable.

This thread is made of fail.

Surprising to see that you use personal attacks rather than critical thinking, actually not so surprising...

No, but common decency and reasoning never work with you so I just decided to skip the niceties at the begining where I try to calmly reason with and get right to the point where I tell you to shut the fuck up.

Just as an added measure. If you don't stop posting retarded threads about how capitalism is evil and if we don't agree with you we are evil, then I will kill this bunny (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Sylvilagus_audubonii.jpg). How would you like that on your Conscience.

Andaras, I would advise you to brush up on your Soviet history, which is filled with explicit instances of imperialism (Polish-Bolshevik War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War), the Invasion of Czechoslovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring), the occupation of the Baltic states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Baltic_states), etc., etc., etc.). It is also filled with a brutal history of genocide, personal and political purges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge), mass murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak) and general statism and oppression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB).

Not only that, but the USSR had a notorious history of being shockingly economically inefficient in the manufacture of basic consumer goods (http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch33.htm), basic agricultural production (http://www.jstor.org/view/00029092/ap040094/04a00270/0), heavily militarist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army) and generally awful stewards of the environment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster)

The former states East bloc, and particularly Eastern Europe, benefited from the collapse of the USSR, with improvements in domestic political, economic and environmental conditions.

As to the now defunct neo-conservative ideology, it is merely one of the countless interventionist ideologies that exist around the world. Not some sort of rebirth of fascism.

And what you describe as "capitalist imperialism" is actually better described as mercantilism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism) An economic system that is far older than either capitalism of socialism, and which has been understood for far longer than either of those two.

Is there suppost to be a point? What exactly are you trying to say/argue?

And what you describe as "capitalist imperialism" is actually better described as mercantilism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism) An economic system that is far older than either capitalism of socialism, and which has been understood for far longer than either of those two.

I agree entirely. To bad AP won't.

I agree entirely. To bad AP won't.

He doesn't listen. I have never actually participated in a debate with AP but I have lurked and watched you two take shots at each other. AP won't listen to reason. He apparently enjoys his warped universe better than reality.

Actually, pretty much the entire Eastern Bloc is significantly better off than it was during the Soviet era, especially the Baltic states (which were ruthlessly and illegally occupied by the USSR to begin with, but I digress), the former Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, and Poland.

Russia's only a laggard because its economic policies were so inept to begin with that they never made the kind of progress seen in other formerly Communist countries.

The neoconservative ideology is of course similar to this palingenetic radical ideology, except that where the blank slot is which Hitler filled with liberal/jewish capitalism and Marxism, the neoconservative intellectuals decided that their world revolution was about the 'free market'

This analogy doesn't follow. Liberals, Jews, Marxism were the scapegoats for the nazi ideology. The free market is not a scapegoat for the neocon ideology.

But I see that you were trying to say that pro-free-market is what drives neoconservatives, which is, frankly, fucking laughable. They're just as statist and authoritarian as the nazis, they just haven't made as many advances in the genocide aspect yet.

, not as an economic policy, but as a model of organization for all mankind.

In what way does supporting a free market make up a "model of organization for all mankind?"

Hint: it doesn't, not even with the neocons. No, the whole "organizing mankind" thing is pretty much Marxism, communism's game.


But not only Iraqis should be concerned with the neoconservative 'Cultural Revolution' they have planned them, but indeed for the whole world, and as the 'economic climate' heats up so to speak, it will be interesting to see how dangerous the forces of capital will become as they realize their own decline, and like a rabid animal lashes out.

You really haven't shown that, or postulated how or why, the "forces of capital" (melodrama much?) are on the "decline."

Nice try to tie-in the neoconservative movement with capitalism. They love that; they love to paint themselves as some sort of pro-capitalism, pro-free market group and I see that, as long as you hate capitalism/free market, you are happy to paint them that way too. Works for everyone, just one small problem - the neocons are a bunch of authoritarian statists.

Nice try to tie-in the neoconservative movement with capitalism. They love that; they love to paint themselves as some sort of pro-capitalism, pro-free market group and I see that, as long as you hate capitalism/free market, you are happy to paint them that way too. Works for everyone, just one small problem - the neocons are a bunch of authoritarian statists.

So true. In my mind, neocons border on fascism, and many of them are fascists. Fascists and neoconservatives have no idea what a free market is. They want a planned economy that benefits the state's interests. Their concept of private property is essentially that the owner of any property is a slave to the state, and must use it however the state dictates.

The anti-free market group loves to group people who support a free market where people can do whatever they want with their property and resources in with the fascists and neocons. Fascism and the free market are entirely incompatible.

Lenin developed the theory of fascism as 'capitalist imperialism'

Wait, what?

*The OP*
Classic Marxist-with-a-free-afternoon bullshit.

Also, Hitler wasn't a fascist, he was an extremely authoritarian capitalist. The two are different, and whilst you might not like to remember that, it's true.

Mussolini was a fascist, and he was simply an authoritarian statist. Fascism isn't about 'ultranationalism'. It's about replacing everything else with a single worldview, and keeping people thinking in that way, by force if necessary. That view can be a nationalist one, or it can be something along the lines of "get on with your lives and prosper", or even "help your fellow man out". Which isn't actually any different from what the USSR did up until the 1960s, and then again in the 1970s and onwards.

Oh also, before you go around quoting Lenin, just remember that he endorsed Mussolini up until 1915, and said that he was the only socialist in Italy with enough intellect, and more importantly, enough will to succeed, to feasibly take out the Liberal Government.

Surprising to see that you use personal attacks rather than critical thinking, actually not so surprising...
Andaras Prime - trying to reason with you and getting a result is about as likely as taking out a tank with a pair of trainers and a pointy stick.

This is why nobody bothers any more.

The key tenet of fascism is the ideology of rebirth, or as Roger Griffin put it, palingenetic ultranationalism...
If you have to use a phrase like "palingenetic ultranationalism", your point is probably not that strong.

Arn't eastern european markets among some of the highest growth areas (while western europe suffers economic stagnation)?
Yeah, but it's like "woo our GDP has gone from 50p to 53p, YUS!" rather than "wahey, everyone is driving gold plated limousines!".

And also, western Europe has about 2-ish% growth year on year. That's a very, very stable total, and leads to the economy not being at all prone to crashing any time soon, unlike that of eastern Europe, which is growing too quickly for its own good.
Isn't that why the EU is rushing to include more and more of these markets into the union.[QUOTE]
No. We're including them because the union is about helping all of the states of Europe and equalising living standards. The previous poorest members, Greece, Spain and Portugal are now doing fine, in part due to EU spending on new road networks and suchlike.

Now that the union has more money to give, we're accepting more and more ex-soviet countries, in the hope that we can sort their states out, too, to make them more stable and liable to be ruled sensibly, unlike with this massive growth, which will doubtless be followed by a slump in markets, leading to extremists getting more control.

The EU seeks to head that kind of thing off, by providing something of a safety net to every country, especially new member states, because we don't want civil wars in Europe, or any level of ethnic cleansing, such as we saw in the Balkans only 10 or so years ago.
[QUOTE]Those nations were raped during soviet rule, not capitalistic rule.
Yeah, quite.
And how is the idea of free market speeding the decay of capitalism ? Free market is just about removing unatrual barriers of taxation.. not even nessesarly entering new markets.
It's AP. Just don't even go there.

And what you describe as "capitalist imperialism" is actually better described as mercantilism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism) An economic system that is far older than either capitalism of socialism, and which has been understood for far longer than either of those two. MOAR *GOLD*!
I love the diabolical brilliance of the mercantile economic theory.