NationStates Jolt Archive

I've noticed a lack of threads about the tragedy in Iraq involving Blackwater. For those few who don't already know about it, Blackwater is a mercenary company we've hired to do things in Iraq, and they killed a lot of civilians. More specifically, from the associated press (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmrLJfBttBSuJiT0K5tiQvlB47dA):

BAGHDAD (AP) — Lawyer Hassan Jabir was stuck in traffic when he heard Blackwater USA security contractors shout "Go, Go, Go." Moments later bullets pierced his back, he said Thursday from his hospital bed.

Jabir was among about a dozen people wounded Sunday during the shooting in west Baghdad's Mansour neighborhood. Iraqi police say at least 11 people were killed.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki described the shooting as a "crime" by Blackwater, a N.C.-based company that guards American diplomats and civilian officials in Iraq.

"No one fired at them," Jabir said of the Blackwater guards. "No one attacked them but they randomly fired at people. So many people died in the street."

Blackwater's operations have been suspended pending completion of a joint U.S.-Iraqi investigation. In the meantime, most U.S. diplomats and civilian officials are confined to the Green Zone or U.S. military bases unless they can travel by helicopter.

In my opinion it's disgraceful, and more disgraceful that blackwater is apparently subject to no justice system and cannot be called to answer for their crimes.

Why is no one talking about Blackwater?Because this is not something we do not expect.

My uncle will be retiring from the military soon (after 20 years) and I've thought about suggesting that he sign up with Blackwater, but he probably won't do that. He has a son now and will probably want to take a safer job.

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.

I believe the saying starts, 'A rose by any other name...'

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.

I don't mean this to sound bad but what is the difference really?

Just that one attacks and one defends for money?

BW are like the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler of Corporate America.

Probably because:

"No one fired at them," Jabir said of the Blackwater guards. "No one attacked them but they randomly fired at people. So many people died in the street.".

Doesn't sound like the whole story, or anything more than a fragment of it.

Maybe they deserve the bad press, but I doubt someone within the company up and decided suddenly to declare it civilian-killing day. We'll see where the story goes.

My uncle will be retiring from the military soon (after 20 years) and I've thought about suggesting that he sign up with Blackwater, but he probably won't do that. He has a son now and will probably want to take a safer job.

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.

Maybe he should pursure a career in the Diplomatic Security Service?

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.

Occassionally its hard to come up with a reply other than "Fuck off", it really is.....

Occassionally its hard to come up with a reply other than "Fuck off", it really is.....

Take it easy man, he just lost his job.

Occassionally its hard to come up with a reply other than "Fuck off", it really is.....

Tell us how you really feel...

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.
Are you kidding me? Blackwater is the fuckin' definition of a modern mercenary company. They like to call themselves "contractors" these days... gives them a illusion of respectability... but they're soldiers for hire no matter what you label them.

Incidently security "contractors" in Iraq currently outnumber formal U.S. military personel there. They are operating virtually unrestricted and unaccountable to either U.S. or Iraqi authorities.

A disgrace. Shows how hunky-dory and under control things are when we utilize mercenaries because neither army is able to protect diplomats, contractors, and other civilian visitors.

And yes, this has been on American news...

I had not heard of Blackwater until the other day. Every bit of news like this just confirms how fucked up the whole of the Bush Administrations plans in Iraq are. There was me thinking Team America: World Police was fictional - do Blackwater employ actors?

At present, Blackwater has forces deployed in nine countries and boasts a database of 21,000 additional troops at the ready, a fleet of more than 20 aircraft, including helicopter gun-ships, and the world's largest private military facility - a 7,000-acre compound in North Carolina. It recently opened a new facility in Illinois (Blackwater North) and is fighting local opposition to a third planned domestic facility near San Diego (Blackwater West) by the Mexican border. It is also manufacturing an armoured vehicle (nicknamed the Grizzly) and surveillance blimps.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2138878,00.html

Not exactly what we'd find at the door of the local pub, is it....."attack helicopters" of which I think 1 or 2 have been lost so far. They're mercenaries.

And Dubya fails to criticize (CRITICIZE them) "pending further evidence".

You know, the man who declared a WAR with no evidence of its reasons.

Enough. I summon Dr. Cox!

But I'm guessing Bush's labradoodles will gladly defend him and the private company and anyone else as long as that person slaughters brown people, preferably unarmed ones, preferably for no reason. You know, while they watch and laugh from the safety of their couches in the trailer their uncle-that-was-also-their-father left to them, because they're oh-so-manly and courageous that they HAVE to watch brown people die so they can feel safe at night, since their mommies don't go tell them stories anymore, or check for brown people/monsters/that weird cousin that tended to ogle them when they were 5/etc under the bed. Newsflash: These people either don't care or are glad to see brown people die. Another newsflash: These people are cowardly morons that decided to follow another cowardly moron's words instead of doing the reasonable thing and buying themselves a teddy bear so they could go sleepy-sleepy. Now they're known as the "thirty percenters", this group that's still willing to put America's actual security at risk by supporting this political and military equivalent of choosing a retard with Parkinson's to perform a brain surgery. The point? Bush and each of the morons that supported him are responsible for these - and many other - deaths. And they are responsible because of the reasons I so gleefully listed here.

Deal.

Because nobody fucking cares.:upyours:

First post, up yours smiley and pointless statement. Welcome, you'll fit right in.

I must confess I feel a little ashamed not to have heard of Blackwater, however, they do not, given the arms they appear to possess, strike me as a run of the mill security force. The BBC article is a little ambiguous upon the issue of accountability; it states that critics claim they are immune, without giving a reference, but then suggests that they are subject to international law if they engage in hostilities.

That said, I would be wary of dispensing with such forces; their absence would put greater strain upon coalition force that ought to be in withdrawal.

The BBC article is a little ambiguous upon the issue of accountability; it states that critics claim they are immune, without giving a reference, but then suggests that they are subject to international law if they engage in hostilities.


'Order 17' of the CPA gives them (and others) immunity. For instance an American building contractor who might commit fraud with regard to a contract cannot be prosecuted by the Iraqi Government.

'Order 17' of the CPA gives them (and others) immunity. For instance an American building contractor who might commit fraud with regard to a contract cannot be prosecuted by the Iraqi Government.

I assume this clause is peculiar to forces contracted by the US?

'Order 17' of the CPA gives them (and others) immunity. For instance an American building contractor who might commit fraud with regard to a contract cannot be prosecuted by the Iraqi Government.

Yeah, it was the last thing Bremer did before the interim government came to power and the CPA left office. The CPA was almost unbelievably corrupt with it's dealings with privateers in Iraq, which is why almost all of the money dedicated to rebuilding was lost in corruption and the like.

I heard of Blackwater a few months ago. What I thought was worrying was that nobody seemed to know if they are accountable to anyone, and to what extend they were and to who(if they are at all).

BW have already seen action in turning New Orleans into a corporate police state, their next assignment will be the Presidential election I am thinking.

Are you kidding me? Blackwater is the fuckin' definition of a modern mercenary company. They like to call themselves "contractors" these days... gives them a illusion of respectability... but they're soldiers for hire no matter what you label them.
And other armies work for free? Not hardly. Blackwater is no better or worse than the US military, who also regularly get into trouble about shooting civilians on the street.

Why is it that whenever I read about Blackwater, I instantly, INSTANTLY, start thinking about the plot of Metal Gear Solid 4?

There are dozens of mercenary companies in Iraq.

Some of them happen to be on the side of the so-called coalition.

My uncle will be retiring from the military soon (after 20 years) and I've thought about suggesting that he sign up with Blackwater, but he probably won't do that. He has a son now and will probably want to take a safer job.

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.
One guy in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDSVAxCL_R4&NR=1)even refers to Blackwater as "a Mafia like organization".

Not mercenaries huh?

I heard of Blackwater a few months ago. What I thought was worrying was that nobody seemed to know if they are accountable to anyone, and to what extend they were and to who(if they are at all).
Bush on Blackwater USA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Z1tevub9I&mode=related&search=)

Incredible???

I assume this clause is peculiar to forces contracted by the US?
AFAIK, most of Blackwater's contracts are with the US. They mostly deal with protecting Diplomats and the like.
Also, they're a US company operating in Iraq, with I assume US Military approval which means they're prob covered by that law.

I've noticed a lack of threads about the tragedy in Iraq involving Blackwater. For those few who don't already know about it, Blackwater is a mercenary company we've hired to do things in Iraq, and they killed a lot of civilians. More specifically, from the associated press (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmrLJfBttBSuJiT0K5tiQvlB47dA):

In my opinion it's disgraceful, and more disgraceful that blackwater is apparently subject to no justice system and cannot be called to answer for their crimes.

*yawns*

Their licence was revoked by Iraq. Eat that one off your hat.

*yawns*

Their licence was revoked by Iraq. Eat that one off your hat.

oooOOOO!!!!!. Which do you think is more significant? The Iraqi attempt at revocation of their licence? Or the Iraqis being barred from detaining, processing or charging them under their legal system for being involved in the killing of (possibly up to) 28 of their citizens?

BW have already seen action in turning New Orleans into a corporate police state, their next assignment will be the Presidential election I am thinking.

*yawns* You are a nut AP. But then, we already knew that.

There are dozens of mercenary companies in Iraq.

Some of them happen to be on the side of the so-called coalition.

Incorrect, a mercenary is on no ones side, they just happen to follow orders of those with the largest exchequer.

oooOOOO!!!!!. Which do you think is more significant? The Iraqi attempt at revocation of their licence?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700238.html?nav=rss_world
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3611203

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700238.html?nav=rss_world
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3611203

Again: Revoking licenses isn't exactly a punishment for mass murder. If a doctor walked in a movie theater and opened fire, I'd not give a damn what AMA did, I'd worry about him being arrested and tried, which Washington won't let happen with their darling murderers.

Incorrect, a mercenary is on no ones side, they just happen to follow orders of those with the largest exchequer.

And who happens to be with the largest exchequer right now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8&mode=related&search=

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700238.html?nav=rss_world
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3611203

From your own article in the Post.
Some security experts said it is unlikely that the Iraqi government could expel Blackwater because its contract is through the State Department.

A regulation known as Order 17, which was established under the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority headed by L. Paul Bremer and is still in effect, granted American private security contractors immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts.

From todays -

An embassy spokeswoman said on Thursday the company, which employs around 1,000 contractors to protect the U.S. mission and its diplomats, was "still here and still under contract from the State Department".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/21/AR2007092100328.html?hpid=topnews

*yawns* You are a nut AP. But then, we already knew that.
*yawns*
And you're a groveling sycophant for Bush & co. But then, we already knew that.

And yet...another garbage story drummed up from the left. Election time of course. This is to be expected from these so called urinalists and the spin they put on life all in an vain attempt to have us believe one thing, while the other is actually the truth.

And yet...another garbage story drummed up from the left. Election time of course. This is to be expected from these so called urinalists and the spin they put on life all in an vain attempt to have us believe one thing, while the other is actually the truth.

You left out :gundge::sniper::upyours: and a few:mp5:

Well, I was thinking about it but I really didn't want to offend anybody....

Snip.

"La la la, I can't hear you! As long as they kill and rape brown people, I'm happy! La la la!"

i was waiting to see if the iraqi government could make the expulsion of blackwater stick. to me its a test of puppetry. if they are forced to allow blackwater to stay, they are nothing but a puppet government of the US.

guess what i expect to happen.

And yet...another garbage story drummed up from the left. Election time of course. This is to be expected from these so called urinalists and the spin they put on life all in an vain attempt to have us believe one thing, while the other is actually the truth.

It's not spin. Reality has a well known liberal bias.

And yet...another garbage story drummed up from the left. Election time of course. This is to be expected from these so called urinalists and the spin they put on life all in an vain attempt to have us believe one thing, while the other is actually the truth.
Perhaps you would be good enough to direct us all to the nice, unbiased news sources that you use... you know the ones I mean, the ones that never put any spin on anything.

While we're at it, could someone please give me a definition of this big, bad bugbear called "the left"? It seems that all too often it's a little label chucked into a debate on whatever to mean "everyone who thinks a little differently from me".

Top marks for use of the word "urinalist" though... I like it ;)

Its like statements about Europe being against the invasion of Iraq means 'Europe is "pro-muslim"'. It starts wrong and gets worser and worser and worser and worser.........

If by "Blackwater" you mean UNATCO, then yes, I've been talking about Blackwater.

*yawns* You are a nut AP. But then, we already knew that.

*yawns*
And you're a groveling sycophant for Bush & co. But then, we already knew that.
* nods :D

And yet...another garbage story drummed up from the left. Election time of course. This is to be expected from these so called urinalists and the spin they put on life all in an vain attempt to have us believe one thing, while the other is actually the truth.

You left out :gundge::sniper::upyours: and a few:mp5:

Well, I was thinking about it but I really didn't want to offend anybody....
Too late? :rolleyes:

Perhaps you would be good enough to direct us all to the nice, unbiased news sources that you use... you know the ones I mean, the ones that never put any spin on anything.

While we're at it, could someone please give me a definition of this big, bad bugbear called "the left"? It seems that all too often it's a little label chucked into a debate on whatever to mean "everyone who thinks a little differently from me".

Top marks for use of the word "urinalist" though... I like it ;)

ty ty but I can not take credit for that...

Unbiased news sources, well they are few and far to find but there are a few out there. There are biased news sources on the right as well, except for the fact that the 'left' currently seems to be in control of the major media sources that most of Americans have access to.

On the matter of these labels, 'left and right.' They are polar opposites in just about all matters of belief and/or thought concerning politics, religion, law, etc... You have your middle of the roads, far left or right, extreme left or right and just plain ole left or right. For example, the Democrats currently use left leaning beliefs while the Republicans use right leaning beliefs. How the terms left and right came to be, well I can't answer you there. And yes, these terms are used at the drop of a hat.

Sorry to go off the subject here everyone.

i was waiting to see if the iraqi government could make the expulsion of blackwater stick. to me its a test of puppetry. if they are forced to allow blackwater to stay, they are nothing but a puppet government of the US.

guess what i expect to happen.

Well.......

CBS/AP) The U.S. Embassy resumed limited convoy movements with Blackwater USA protection in Baghdad, four days after all land travel by U.S. diplomats and other civilian officials was suspended in response to Iraqi outrage over the alleged killing of civilians by the American security firm.

U.S. Embassy spokeswoman Mirembe Nantongo said the decision was made after consultations with the Iraqi governments and the convoys will be allowed to leave the heavily fortified Green Zone on a select basis.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/21/iraq/main3284603.shtml

'........the kind of guy that would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the god damned common courtesy to give him a reach around.' . I doubt they even bothered to use spit.

I've brought this issue up on my community forum site. The response?That it was liberal crap, or it was spun the wrong way,or its another conspiracy theory. So I will not feel sorry for those dick heads when mercenary squads are employed through out America.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yJUEULWEP9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

Because they shot Arabic people and all Americans know that all Arabic people are terrorists. Sorry.

I've brought this issue up on my community forum site. The response?That it was liberal crap, or it was spun the wrong way,or its another conspiracy theory. So I will not feel sorry for those dick heads when mercenary squads are employed through out America.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yJUEULWEP9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

I think that is supposed to begin sometime after the Democrats win the Presidential election if Im not mistaken. Everybody knows how the Dems just love to slice up and cut the military to the bone so you might just be right.

Its a good issue to bring up and I think that is what forums are for. Free thinking, free speech etc... Expect to get reactions that are contrary to what you believe to be true.

The last thing I am going post here is that I am trully thankful we have the internet as another source to use. I dont care what your personal beliefs are on anything, it gives everybody more access to more information then ever before.

Because they shot Arabic people and all Americans know that all Arabic people are terrorists. Sorry.

Now thats just generalising and unfair. A great deal know that Arab civillians only die when the 3bbill terrorists use them as human shields or to make the good guys look bad.

Well.......



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/21/iraq/main3284603.shtml

'........the kind of guy that would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the god damned common courtesy to give him a reach around.' . I doubt they even bothered to use spit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7006697.stm

Yes it would seem like the Iraqi government needs to grow a pair and tell Blackwater to not operate at all, but it seems incapable of it.

If the Iraqi gov would grow a pair then we could leave...I concur with your last statement as well...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7006697.stm

Yes it would seem like the Iraqi government needs to grow a pair and tell Blackwater to not operate at all, but it seems incapable of it.

the iraqi government would have to have some way of enforcing their order. its not a matter of will, its a matter of might.

did charlie mccarthy ever tell edgar bergen to put his hand up his own ass?

(in case you dont know who im talking about http://www.radiohof.org/comedy/edgarbergen.html you have to be brilliant to be a ventriolquist with a radio show.)

Now now, lets not go jumping to conclusions here. It is possible that BW were just extremely negligent, rather then extremely... well, evil. In so far as a miscommunication can cause people to confuse fried with foe, tbh I doubt they intended to kill random strangers.

Please tell me someone else got that UNATCO reference. Please. Don't let me be the only one.

Yeah, and its possible that the woman that constantly has black eyes, is just a klutz and not being beat by her husband. Or that the man with the knife in his chest fell on it, and not me stabbing it in there.

I'm sorry, is there suppost be an argument here?

there is some chance that they were taking fire and over reacted. or that a normal level of reaction resulted in the deaths of some innocent people

but the problem with black water is that they are neither subject to military law nor iraqi law. so how can they be brought to justice if it turns out that they have done something clearly illegal?

Well, the UN could probably charge them with war crimes, assuming they did it intentionally.

edit: and why arn't they subject to American law? They are based there after all.

Now now, lets not go jumping to conclusions here. It is possible that BW were just extremely negligent, rather then extremely... well, evil. In so far as a miscommunication can cause people to confuse fried with foe, tbh I doubt they intended to kill random strangers.

Yeah, and its possible that the woman that constantly has black eyes, is just a klutz and not being beat by her husband. Or that the man with the knife in his chest fell on it, and not me stabbing it in there.

Now now, lets not go jumping to conclusions here. It is possible that BW were just extremely negligent, rather then extremely... well, evil. In so far as a miscommunication can cause people to confuse fried with foe, tbh I doubt they intended to kill random strangers.

there is some chance that they were taking fire and over reacted. or that a normal level of reaction resulted in the deaths of some innocent people

but the problem with black water is that they are neither subject to military law nor iraqi law. so how can they be brought to justice if it turns out that they have done something clearly illegal?

Please tell me someone else got that UNATCO reference. Please. Don't let me be the only one.

i dont know what unatco is and expect you to inform us if its so important to you.

The reference is from the pc game, Deus Ex.

UNATCO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNATCO#UNATCO)

At the start of the game, it appears that UNATCO's intent is to defeat global terrorism perpetrated by groups like the National Secessionist Forces or Silhouette. But as the story progresses the player discovers that the director, Joseph Manderley, is the pawn of a secret conspiracy that calls itself Majestic-12. As a consequence, UNATCO is not a law enforcement agency, but merely a tool for global hegemony. By the end of the game the player works actively against the covert operations of UNATCO and Majestic-12. UNATCO's American base is in the location of an underground bunker beneath Liberty Island.

The player uncovers financial links that bind UNATCO to Walton Simons, head of the FEMA and a key leader of Majestic-12. UNATCO does much of MJ-12's dirty work, including the dispersal of biological warfare agents against the general population, and military suppression of any peaceful or military resistance to UNATCO member governments.

Well, the UN could probably charge them with war crimes, assuming they did it intentionally.

edit: and why arn't they subject to American law? They are based there after all.

It's tricky. The crimes they commit don't take part on American soil, and Order-17 means the Iraqi government can't prosecute, much less demand extradition.

Also, I'm not too sure on the full aspects of this, but the company is lobbying to be provided with the same protections against civil suits as the government military, which more or less immunizes them against most aspects of civil law in the US, and supposedly allows them to operate under military law, which they conveniently don't have.

I could be wrong, but if true, this gives them a blank cheque to do just about anything under "business practices" without worrying about legal backlash.

The reference is from the pc game, Deus Ex.

UNATCO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNATCO#UNATCO)

Thank god I'm not the only one.


Coulda done with a spoilers warning though :p

It's tricky. The crimes they commit don't take part on American soil, and Order-17 means the Iraqi government can't prosecute, much less demand extradition.

Also, I'm not too sure on the full aspects of this, but the company is lobbying to be provided with the same protections against civil suits as the government military, which more or less immunizes them against most aspects of civil law in the US, and supposedly allows them to operate under military law, which they conveniently don't have.

I could be wrong, but if true, this gives them a blank cheque to do just about anything under "business practices" without worrying about legal backlash.

I...didn't realize they were lobbying for that. While I am rationally and morally completely against that. There's this little part of me that almost wants them to receive recognition as a sovereign military force because that pretty much opens up corporations to become sovereign states and we enter crazy Shadowrun scifi dystopia universe and I'm just assuming that, at that point, I'll get a katana be able to bounty hunt people for a living.

I've brought this issue up on my community forum site. The response?That it was liberal crap, or it was spun the wrong way,or its another conspiracy theory. So I will not feel sorry for those dick heads when mercenary squads are employed through out America.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yJUEULWEP9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8
The average American cannot be too happy about this development? Or can they? Scary indeed!!

Well, the UN could probably charge them with war crimes, assuming they did it intentionally.

edit: and why arn't they subject to American law? They are based there after all.

Are they killing people in the US? Is it convenient for the US to allow them have the status that they do?

The average American cannot be too happy about this development? Or can they? Scary indeed!!

The average American doesn't know about the development because the average American gets their news from CNN, MSNBC, FOX, ect ect, all of which dedicate themselves to silly shit like "entertainment news" about O.J. Simpson or the kid getting tazered at the Kerry speech.

Sad thing is, the Daily Show and the Colbert Report followed them right along with it.

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary."Private security company" is the definition of mercenary.

I...didn't realize they were lobbying for that. While I am rationally and morally completely against that. There's this little part of me that almost wants them to receive recognition as a sovereign military force because that pretty much opens up corporations to become sovereign states and we enter crazy Shadowrun scifi dystopia universe and I'm just assuming that, at that point, I'll get a katana be able to bounty hunt people for a living.

Wait, Shadowrun or Cyberpunk? If it's Shadowrun I can be the Elf Mage!

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.
Ice cubes are frozen water, not ice.

Incorrect, a mercenary is on no ones side, they just happen to follow orders of those with the largest exchequer.

If I pay you to follow my orders and you do, then you are on my side.

ty ty but I can not take credit for that...

Unbiased news sources, well they are few and far to find but there are a few out there. There are biased news sources on the right as well, except for the fact that the 'left' currently seems to be in control of the major media sources that most of Americans have access to.

Fox isn't a major news source in the US?

Well I'll be damned...

On the matter of these labels, 'left and right.' They are polar opposites in just about all matters of belief and/or thought concerning politics, religion, law, etc... You have your middle of the roads, far left or right, extreme left or right and just plain ole left or right. For example, the Democrats currently use left leaning beliefs while the Republicans use right leaning beliefs. How the terms left and right came to be, well I can't answer you there. And yes, these terms are used at the drop of a hat.

No, the democrats use center or right leaning beliefs. Republicans use far right leaning beliefs. The US is not even close to being left.

Left and right comes from the monarchies of Europe, where the supporters of the king would sit to the right (i.e. nobles) and the people would sit to the left (i.e. peasants). I think the British and French parliaments were examples of this. Of course, it was the opposite in Denmark, leading to a party called Left which is actually more right-leaning (but still closer to the Democratic party of the US).

It's tricky. The crimes they commit don't take part on American soil, and Order-17 means the Iraqi government can't prosecute, much less demand extradition.

Still, if the Iraqi government chooses it, such people could be declared enemies of Iraq and Iraqi security forces could be permitted to open fire upon them.

That would make things very complicated I expect.

Also, I'm not too sure on the full aspects of this, but the company is lobbying to be provided with the same protections against civil suits as the government military, which more or less immunizes them against most aspects of civil law in the US, and supposedly allows them to operate under military law, which they conveniently don't have.

See, this would only apply in the US and whenever the US enforces it. The problem here is that the US is treating the Iraqi gov. as a puppet gov. leading to the Iraqis losing faith in their government and making people turn to terrorism, to get back at these mercenary companies when they act out of hand (and in turn, mercenary companies that actually do protect for the sake of some higher good, however rare or common they might be, get bad rep as well).

I could be wrong, but if true, this gives them a blank cheque to do just about anything under "business practices" without worrying about legal backlash.

Seeing as how no international law governs them, no international law protects them either and if the Iraqi government choose to, I am sure they could make such companies illegal and fight them off as if they were insurgents, forcing the US to make a choice - attack the Iraqi government or expel the mercenary companies?

author Jeremy Schahill wrote the bestselling book titled "Blackwater"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

the founder of Blackwater said he wanted to start a " "Chistian" army ".
Blackwater founder also has very high political connections.
his father invented the lights on your car's sun visor mirrors and made millions.

Blackwater is used as personal guards when executive officials go to places like Iraq.
BW also showed up in New Orleans after the city drowning.

if I am correct, they try to claim exemption from the rules of war or is it the uniform code of military justice. well the latter they probably can.
the former...well, they are a mercenary group and laws regarding war cover all fighting groups.
this infuriates enlisted personal. plus they are paid a sh@# ton more than enlisted personal. this situation also infuriates them.

BW has been referred to as or it has been feared they will be a "praetorian guard" for the Bush administration because those that run it share the administration's ideology. (not to be confused with "Praetorian Guard" by John Stockwell, the highest CIA ever to leave the agency and come out against the crimes against humanity by his former employer).

Still, if the Iraqi government chooses it, such people could be declared enemies of Iraq and Iraqi security forces could be permitted to open fire upon them.

That would make things very complicated I expect.

Considering that Blackwater mercs would probably get protection from US forces, very, very sticky. GWB loves the mercs after all. It would pit the ISG against USAF and Blackwater.


Seeing as how no international law governs them, no international law protects them either and if the Iraqi government choose to, I am sure they could make such companies illegal and fight them off as if they were insurgents, forcing the US to make a choice - attack the Iraqi government or expel the mercenary companies?

Most likely? Threaten the ISG, bribe a couple of them to keep quiet.

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.

except they hired foreign nationals to serve as personnel.

from wiki:
A mercenary is a person who takes part in an armed conflict who is not a national of a Party to the conflict and "is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party"

Blackwater employs Chileans, although the Chilean gov't does not support the war in Iraq by any means.

If I pay you to follow my orders and you do, then you are on my side.

A common misapprehension. Historically often dispelled when the paymasters find themselves under the guns of their erstwhile, "employees."

BW is also run by a far-right-wing Christian fundamentalist, and a monetary backer of the GOP and Bush. No doubt they will see action in the Presidential election in poor and/or black areas to see people 'vote correctly' and that no 'criminals' vote, and that the voting machines are working 'correctly'.

BW is also run by a far-right-wing Christian fundamentalist, and a monetary backer of the GOP and Bush. No doubt they will see action in the Presidential election in poor and/or black areas to see people 'vote correctly' and that no 'criminals' vote, and that the voting machines are working 'correctly'.

Ayup.

Blackwater built a faculity last year at a town called Mount Carroll near where I live here in Northwest Illinois.
They did it without telling anyone in the neighborhood.
In the newspaper, they said since they have nothing to hide, they are willing to give tours to anyone.
They said this in the Spring. As of right now, they have yet to allow any tours....

This website might contene some infomation:

http://www.noprivatearmies.org/

Blackwater built a faculity last year at a town called Mount Carroll near where I live here in Northwest Illinois.
They did it without telling anyone in the neighborhood.
In the newspaper, they said since they have nothing to hide, they are willing to give tours to anyone.
They said this in the Spring. As of right now, they have yet to allow any tours....

This website might contene some infomation:

http://www.noprivatearmies.org/

Mt. Carroll. I don't think I am too far from there (in macomb currently)

Maybe I can infiltrate it, and find out some cool stuff..Or I can just pretend I did.

Maybe I can infiltrate it, and find out some cool stuff..Or I can just pretend I did.

http://xfiles.wearehere.net/episodes/9x19.htm
Remember, password is:
End Game

http://xfiles.wearehere.net/episodes/9x19.htm
Remember, password is:
End Game
Gosh, please don't spoil, I haven't got that DVD yet.

Gosh, please don't spoil, I haven't got that DVD yet.

It's okay, you'd see that password in the first 10 minutes or so.
As for the link, well .... :eek:
Besides, it's pretty well all spoiled for us come Dec. 23, 2012.

Personally, I don't see a problem with mercenaries. If you want to fight for hire, go ahead...however, my concern is that these companies are often able to get around laws, which enables them to do stuff a military under the jurisdiction of its home country would be unable to do without serious penalty. So, basically, mercenaries themselves are fine, but mercenaries getting around the law are not fine.

A disgrace. Shows how hunky-dory and under control things are when we utilize mercenaries because neither army is able to protect diplomats, contractors, and other civilian visitors.

And yes, this has been on American news...

How is it a disgrace, and what leads you to believe things are out of control? Honestly, doesn't the the U.S. military have more important things to attend to than provide security for lame duck diplomats and "civilian visitors"? Think of it this way...how often do you hear about 18 year old soldiers being captured and beheaded? Now, how often do you hear about 30 year old "contractors" being captured and having their heads sawed off? Mercenaries are a part of war, always have been.

Personally, I don't see a problem with mercenaries. If you want to fight for hire, go ahead...however, my concern is that these companies are often able to get around laws, which enables them to do stuff a military under the jurisdiction of its home country would be unable to do without serious penalty. So, basically, mercenaries themselves are fine, but mercenaries getting around the law are not fine.

Except there are certain things that just have to be done that public opinion doesn't allow us to do. Such as utilizing torture in interrogations. If I'm not mistaken I believe the soldiers punished for the Abu Gharib incident were actually taking orders from a Blackwater official at the time. Which they aren't exactly supposed to do...lol.

Except there are certain things that just have to be done that public opinion doesn't allow us to do. Such as utilizing torture in interrogations.

Trolling, joking or insane?

Torture doesn't work. If you believe it does, you're lacking in the brains department, as it has been shown time and again that it doesn't, causing the person being tortured to give you fake intelligence.

Torture is immoral. If you see it as moral, you're either just wanting to see some brown people get hurt out of pure sadism or you are an immoral person.

Of course, in either situation, you're plenty man enough to HOPE to see people getting tortured, without getting your hands dirty yourself.

You're a piece of work. Make that a train wreck.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070922/ap_on_go_co/us_blackwater_probe;_ylt=AhHSkMSZ.kZdK5.3ilmqO0Ss0NUE

Just an update

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070922/ap_on_go_co/us_blackwater_probe;_ylt=AhHSkMSZ.kZdK5.3ilmqO0Ss0NUE

Just an update

Well, BW is working out pretty damn well for you all, isn't it?

Well, BW is working out pretty damn well for you all, isn't it?

Hey. I never heard of them until I saw this whole affair went down. Oh and for the record, I do not support blackwater. This is why we have Marines in diplomatic service.

Hey. I never heard of them until I saw this whole affair went down. Oh and for the record, I do not support blackwater. This is why we have Marines in diplomatic service.

Never claimed you support them. But anyways, let's just add this to the list of Bush's MANY errors.

Never claimed you support them. But anyways, let's just add this to the list of Bush's MANY errors.

And chalk it up on Clinton to as deals were around before Bush took office. But yea. I agree.

And chalk it up on Clinton to as deals were around before Bush took office. But yea. I agree.

Bush surely could choose whether or not to send an organization that pledges allegiance to itself and itself alone there.

Bush surely could choose whether or not to send an organization that pledges allegiance to itself and itself alone there.

That I cannot argue with.

Personally, I don't see a problem with mercenaries. If you want to fight for hire, go ahead...however, my concern is that these companies are often able to get around laws, which enables them to do stuff a military under the jurisdiction of its home country would be unable to do without serious penalty. So, basically, mercenaries themselves are fine, but mercenaries getting around the law are not fine.
So basically you are saying you have a problem with Blackwater "getting around the law"? :confused:

Nobody talks about Blackwater because it's the kind of thing AP would absolutely cream his pants about, and we could somewhat do without all of that.

"THEY ARE BAD"
"yes, this is true"
"OH MAN, SCORE ONE FOR ME!"
*sighs*



*edits*

Oh, also, yes, this story is an absolute disgrace. But then they're kind of above the law and that's kind of the point.

I'm just worried about what they'll do when they start on the peacekeeping missions in Darfur etc. which they're lined up to be a part of, really. Can't see that going well at all, especially since they're supposedly a "Christian Army".

And chalk it up on Clinton to as deals were around before Bush took office. But yea. I agree.
No, you need to keep this one high on Bush's list. To blame Clinton is laughable.

Remember Bremer's Orders? Well these contractors are acting with impunity because of those Orders:

COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ORDER NUMBER 17 (http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/20040627_CPAORD_17_Status_of_Coalition__Rev__with_Annex_A.pdf)

Iraqi Legal Process

1) Unless provided otherwise herein, the MNF, the CPA, Foreign Liaison Missions, their Personnel, property, funds and assets, and all International Consultants shall be immune from Iraqi legal process.

2) All MNF, CPA and Foreign Liaison Mission Personnel and International Consultants shall respect the Iraqi laws relevant to those Personnel and Consultants in Iraq including the Regulations, Orders, Memoranda and Public Notices issued by the Administrator of the CPA.

3) All MNF, CPA and Foreign Liaison Mission Personnel, and International Consultants shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of their Sending States. They shall be immune from any form of arrest or detention other than by persons acting on behalf of their Sending States, except that nothing in this provision shall prohibit MNF Personnel from preventing acts of serious misconduct by the above-mentioned Personnel or Consultants, or otherwise temporarily detaining any such Personnel or Consultants who pose a risk of injury to themselves or others, pending expeditious turnover to the appropriate authorities of the Sending State. In all such circumstances,
the appropriate senior representative of the detained person’s Sending State in Iraq shall be notified immediately.

4) The Sending States of MNF Personnel shall have the right to exercise within Iraq any criminal and disciplinary jurisdiction conferred on them by the law of that Sending State over all persons subject to the military law of that Sending State.
So much for the vaunted Iraq sovereignity that you have proclaimed here far and wide.

Blaming Clinton is a bad joke.

I'm just worried about what they'll do when they start on the peacekeeping missions in Darfur etc. which they're lined up to be a part of, really. Can't see that going well at all, especially since they're supposedly a "Christian Army".

I don't get it though. Who's paying for their jaunt to Darfur? It can't be some kind of PR move. Mercenary companies never do that unless they're paid for it.

No, you need to keep this one high on Bush's list. To blame Clinton is laughable.

Remember Bremer's Orders? Well these contractors are acting with impunity because of those Orders:

COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ORDER NUMBER 17 (http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/20040627_CPAORD_17_Status_of_Coalition__Rev__with_Annex_A.pdf)


So much for the vaunted Iraq sovereignity that you have proclaimed here far and wide.

Blaming Clinton is a bad joke.

I was not blaming clinton for this one CH. You should really follow the exchange more closely.

further update:

Blackwater working again in Iraq

The US security firm Blackwater has resumed limited operations in the Iraqi capital Baghdad four days after a deadly shootout involving the company.

The company provides security to all US state department employees in Iraq.

It had been ordered by the Iraqi government to halt operations while a joint US-Iraqi inquiry was held.

A US embassy spokeswoman said the decision to allow Blackwater to resume work had been taken in consultation with the Iraqi government.
read: The US decided to let Blackwater resume and told the Iraq govt to take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.
ahh...winning hearts and minds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7006697.stm

further update:

read: The US decided to let Blackwater resume and told the Iraq govt to take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.
ahh...winning hearts and minds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7006697.stm

I can see the next escalation now. Iraqi government troops arrest any Blackwater staff operating outside of designated green zones.

I can see the next escalation now. Iraqi government troops arrest any Blackwater staff operating outside of designated green zones.
Ummmm......the Iraqi government cannot arrest any of the US sponsored contractors:

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13074117&postcount=104

COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ORDER NUMBER 17

Iraqi Legal Process
1) Unless provided otherwise herein, the MNF, the CPA, Foreign Liaison Missions, their Personnel, property, funds and assets, and all International Consultants shall be immune from Iraqi legal process.

2) All MNF, CPA and Foreign Liaison Mission Personnel and International Consultants shall respect the Iraqi laws relevant to those Personnel and Consultants in Iraq including the Regulations, Orders, Memoranda and Public Notices issued by the Administrator of the CPA.

3) All MNF, CPA and Foreign Liaison Mission Personnel, and International Consultants shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of their Sending States. They shall be immune from any form of arrest or detention other than by persons acting on behalf of their Sending States, except that nothing in this provision shall prohibit MNF Personnel from preventing acts of serious misconduct by the above-mentioned Personnel or Consultants, or otherwise temporarily detaining any such Personnel or Consultants who pose a risk of injury to themselves or others, pending expeditious turnover to the appropriate authorities of the Sending State. In all such circumstances,
the appropriate senior representative of the detained person’s Sending State in Iraq shall be notified immediately.

4) The Sending States of MNF Personnel shall have the right to exercise within Iraq any criminal and disciplinary jurisdiction conferred on them by the law of that Sending State over all persons subject to the military law of that Sending State.
Further:

The Rule of Order 17 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13621382/site/newsweek/page/0/)

Ummmm......the Iraqi government cannot arrest any of the US sponsored contractors:

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13074117&postcount=104

COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ORDER NUMBER 17


Further:

The Rule of Order 17 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13621382/site/newsweek/page/0/)

I know. Which would mean that level of escalation is akin to the Iraqi government effectively telling the US "screw your laws, we're making our own"

Probably not very likely, but it depends on how much they're fed up.

A common misapprehension. Historically often dispelled when the paymasters find themselves under the guns of their erstwhile, "employees."

At that point, they would no longer be on their side.

Doesn't stop them from having a side for as long as they're getting paid and following orders.

My uncle will be retiring from the military soon (after 20 years) and I've thought about suggesting that he sign up with Blackwater, but he probably won't do that. He has a son now and will probably want to take a safer job.

Also, Blackwater is a private security company, not mercenary.
Do they preform Military actions for profit?
Then they're mercenaries.

And yet another example of making the private sector profit off of Iraq.

Doesn't sound like the whole story, or anything more than a fragment of it.

Maybe they deserve the bad press, but I doubt someone within the company up and decided suddenly to declare it civilian-killing day. We'll see where the story goes.

Actually, they are notorious for declaring it civilian killing day. Some of them even record it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4BnEVP8hc0) so they can laugh about it later.

Nothing about this story has surprised me so far.

Well, BW is working out pretty damn well for you all, isn't it?

Hey. I never heard of them until I saw this whole affair went down. Oh and for the record, I do not support blackwater. This is why we have Marines in diplomatic service.

Never claimed you support them. But anyways, let's just add this to the list of Bush's MANY errors.

And chalk it up on Clinton to as deals were around before Bush took office. But yea. I agree.

No, you need to keep this one high on Bush's list. To blame Clinton is laughable.

Remember Bremer's Orders? Well these contractors are acting with impunity because of those Orders:

COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ORDER NUMBER 17 (http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/20040627_CPAORD_17_Status_of_Coalition__Rev__with_Annex_A.pdf)


So much for the vaunted Iraq sovereignity that you have proclaimed here far and wide.

Blaming Clinton is a bad joke.

I was not blaming clinton for this one CH. You should really follow the exchange more closely.
Yeah, I followed the exchange and yeah you blamed Clinton. :eek:

ty ty but I can not take credit for that...

Unbiased news sources, well they are few and far to find but there are a few out there. There are biased news sources on the right as well, except for the fact that the 'left' currently seems to be in control of the major media sources that most of Americans have access to.

On the matter of these labels, 'left and right.' They are polar opposites in just about all matters of belief and/or thought concerning politics, religion, law, etc... You have your middle of the roads, far left or right, extreme left or right and just plain ole left or right. For example, the Democrats currently use left leaning beliefs while the Republicans use right leaning beliefs. How the terms left and right came to be, well I can't answer you there. And yes, these terms are used at the drop of a hat.

Sorry to go off the subject here everyone.

So they didn't kill all those people and the boogeyman (the left) has made it all up? Interesting, tell me more.

I think that is supposed to begin sometime after the Democrats win the Presidential election if Im not mistaken. Everybody knows how the Dems just love to slice up and cut the military to the bone so you might just be right.

Its a good issue to bring up and I think that is what forums are for. Free thinking, free speech etc... Expect to get reactions that are contrary to what you believe to be true.

The last thing I am going post here is that I am trully thankful we have the internet as another source to use. I dont care what your personal beliefs are on anything, it gives everybody more access to more information then ever before.

Really? So Clinton didn't propose the biggest increase in military spending (http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jan1999/mil-j05.shtml) since Reagan? And people didn't complain that his increase in spending was going to hurt social programs (http://www.twf.org/News/Y1999/0118-RobPoor.html)? Ah, and note the reason he increased spending in the lasat link. "Islamic terrorism" cited as reason for spending. So "the democrats won't even mention Islamic terrorism" line parroted by every Republican Presidential candidate is....um bullshit?

Really? So Clinton didn't propose the biggest increase in military spending (http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jan1999/mil-j05.shtml) since Reagan? And people didn't complain that his increase in spending was going to hurt social programs (http://www.twf.org/News/Y1999/0118-RobPoor.html)? Ah, and note the reason he increased spending in the lasat link. "Islamic terrorism" cited as reason for spending. So "the democrats won't even mention Islamic terrorism" line parroted by every Republican Presidential candidate is....um bullshit?
shame on you. Subjecting this poor addled-brain boy to a hearty dose of reality.
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

Yeah, I followed the exchange and yeah you blamed Clinton. :eek:

Then I guess you mised the post where I agreed with Heikoku. :eek:

Wait, Shadowrun or Cyberpunk? If it's Shadowrun I can be the Elf Mage!

Shadowrun is the name of a single game - Cyberpunk is the genre/setting in which it takes place.

I know. Which would mean that level of escalation is akin to the Iraqi government effectively telling the US "screw your laws, we're making our own"

Probably not very likely, but it depends on how much they're fed up.

Considering we're badgering them to get on their own two feet so we can leave, it makes sense that they would tell us to fuck off and start making laws of their own. Too bad that's not what Bush really wants.

I don't get it though. Who's paying for their jaunt to Darfur? It can't be some kind of PR move. Mercenary companies never do that unless they're paid for it.
The UN and African Union, if they get the contract. Which they will, because the US will force this into happening.

I could be wrong, but if true, this gives them a blank cheque to do just about anything under "business practices" without worrying about legal backlash.

Blackwater contractors are unaccountable under U.S. and international laws?

Blackwater is accountable under the U.S. Constitution, international treaties, U.S. regulations, defense trade controls acts and numerous U.S. statutes.

Specifically, the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) applies to contractors accompanying the total force and the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act (MEJA) creates jurisdiction for federal court trials. Any wrongdoing is covered under statutes such as the War Crimes Act, the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act, the Anti-Torture Statute, the Defense Base Act, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and many other domestic and international regulations. Blackwater advocates stricter enforcement of existing laws.

Blackwater contractors are unaccountable under U.S. and international laws?

Blackwater is accountable under the U.S. Constitution, international treaties, U.S. regulations, defense trade controls acts and numerous U.S. statutes.

Specifically, the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) applies to contractors accompanying the total force and the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act (MEJA) creates jurisdiction for federal court trials. Any wrongdoing is covered under statutes such as the War Crimes Act, the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act, the Anti-Torture Statute, the Defense Base Act, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and many other domestic and international regulations. Blackwater advocates stricter enforcement of existing laws.

Then wtf with the civilian-killing day?

Then wtf with the civilian-killing day?

I honestly really don't know.

Blackwater contractors (snip)isting laws.


Lovely. Their humanitarian stance is touching. However They're protected from being prosecuted in Iraq by the Iraqi government, along with other mercenaries, by Order 17 of the CPA.

So what? Fact is: They don't have a "get out of jail free card" just because they work for Blackwater. They aren't immune to the law.

Lets just wait and see how the Iraqi "government" will handle it. Not like I care about it in the first place.

So what? Fact is: They don't have a "get out of jail free card" just because they work for Blackwater. They aren't immune to the law..

Nobody said working for blackwater made one immune to the law, just immune to Iraqi law for anything that may occur there, and as they aren't subject to US military regulations, that means when they do fuck up, they just take the personnell involved out of the country. Theres numerous instances mentioned in some of the articles in the thread.

Lets just wait and see how the Iraqi "government" will handle it.
.

We have. They wanted Blackwater gone and revoked their licence, the US quickly disabused them of notions about being a soverign Government, and 4 days later Blackwater were back on the streets.

Not like I care about it in the first place.

Then why post?

Then why post?
Fass Syndrome, first symptom.

So what? Fact is: They don't have a "get out of jail free card" just because they work for Blackwater. They aren't immune to the law.

Order 17 prevents their prosecution by Iraqi government, nor does it allow the Iraqi government to press charges. The US government is not pressing charges despite criminal accusations.

Ergo, Blackwater has a "Get out of Jail Card"

Furthermore, it is lobbying for application of USMJ laws to apply to it, which as a private organization, USMJ laws cannot really apply short of martial law. Thereby, it is creating a scenario which it is impossible to prosecute under for any crime in any operational area.

However, you do not care since you care nothing about people being killed unjustly unless they are Americans, and maybe not even then.

But, I suspect you would care very much if numerous mercenary organizations were to begin military operations in US soil specifically targeting civilians and infrastructure and when returning to their host country, remain immune to prosecution.

Order 17 prevents their prosecution by Iraqi government, nor does it allow the Iraqi government to press charges. The US government is not pressing charges despite criminal accusations.

Ergo, Blackwater has a "Get out of Jail Card"

Furthermore, it is lobbying for application of USMJ laws to apply to it, which as a private organization, USMJ laws cannot really apply short of martial law. Thereby, it is creating a scenario which it is impossible to prosecute under for any crime in any operational area.

However, you do not care since you care nothing about people being killed unjustly unless they are Americans, and maybe not even then.

But, I suspect you would care very much if numerous mercenary organizations were to begin military operations in US soil specifically targeting civilians and infrastructure and when returning to their host country, remain immune to prosecution.

i'll second this, as it seems to exactly aggree with what i've been hearing and seeing. and point out there's no guarantee it won't happen on u.s. soil, or be 'fixed price warriors' doing it when it does.

of course the winds change too, so there's no guarantee it will either. but i think we've seen so many things happen that so many people, for so long, believed never could, that it will be a long time before i for one, will ever again dismiss ANY possibility out of hand.

=^^=
.../\...