NationStates Jolt Archive

Everyone's heard of 1984 by George Orwell, right? Room 101, Big Brother, "Oceania, 'Tis for Thee", thoughtcrime, etc.?
Or what about Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, with Our Ford, Malthusian drills, the Savage, "Ending is better than mending", and all of that?
What about Yevgeny Zamyatin's We? I-330, pink tickets, the Benefactor, the Integral?

These are the Three Great Dystopian Novels, works that created a new genre of literature and still have an impact on the world today. But which one deserved the title of The Greatest Dystopian Novel? Cast your vote!

Big Brother is watching you?
Community, Identity, Stability?
All hail the One State, all hail ciphers, all hail the Benefactor?
Vote now!

I have not read We, but of the other two 1984 in much better.

I haven't read We.

I did like A Brave New World better than 1984 though.

Well I haven't read We but I have read both 1984 and Brave New World and my poll goes to BNW. I love that book, it's so amazingly creepy...

My flatemate, who’s a nut about Eastern European/Russian literature, thrust We into my hands a couple of months back with a feverish look in her eyes.

“Read it!”, she demanded.

So I did.

And, boy, what a grim, but well written, story. There’s such an overreaching sense of bleakness and darkness throughout the whole novel; sent a shiver down my spine.

All three novels are outstanding, though I would say Brave New World does it for me more than 1984 (Orwell did a lot better with Down & Out... and Homage To Catalonia, IMO). However, We knocks both off top spot.

You just can’t beat those Ruskies for misery-infested literature.

1984 by far. It's the one thats known best, has the most influence on culture, and is the most real when compaired to the modern world.

Out of the two of those that I've read 1984. In general the best dystopian novel I've read is the Chrysalids, if it counts. If it doesn't: Handmaids tale. But Brave New World was bad. It would have made a great short story but not a novel.

Four. Don't forget:

http://library.huttcity.govt.nz/Kids/Great_Reads/Recommended/images/Greeneggsandham.jpg

*nod*

Animal Farm anyone?

Four. Don't forget:

http://library.huttcity.govt.nz/Kids/Great_Reads/Recommended/images/Greeneggsandham.jpg

*nod*I wrote a research proposal regarding the effects of green eggs and ham on voting behaviour in my first year of politics.

I think I became my tutor's all time favourite student - mainly because he gave me a good grade for it and always talks to me about it.

Four. Don't forget:

http://library.huttcity.govt.nz/Kids/Great_Reads/Recommended/images/Greeneggsandham.jpg

*nod*
In the future, you will eat green eggs and ham. You will eat them on the train, you will eat them in the rain, you will eat them on a plane, and if you ever even think about eating something else, Sam I Am will be on you like stink on a dead monkey who was killed for refusing to eat green eggs and ham.

My flatemate, who’s a nut about Eastern European/Russian literature, thrust We into my hands a couple of months back with a feverish look in her eyes.

“Read it!”, she demanded.

So I did.

And, boy, what a grim, but well written, story. There’s such an overreaching sense of bleakness and darkness throughout the whole novel; sent a shiver down my spine.

All three novels are outstanding, though I would say Brave New World does it for me more than 1984 (Orwell did a lot better with Down & Out... and Homage To Catalonia, IMO). However, We knocks both off top spot.

You just can’t beat those Ruskies for misery-infested literature.
The Eastern Block of the USSR had excellent authors.

Animal Farm anyone?

Not dystopian. It was an allegory. I think, but I know it wasn't dystopian. What about The Handmaid's Tale? I've never even heard of We but I have heard The Handmaid's Tale referenced a few times.

It's more for teens, but The Giver was pretty good as the society first appeared to be Utopian and then turns out to be Dystopian further along.

The Eastern Block of the USSR had excellent authors.

Experiencing dystopia firsthand usually gives you a pretty unique perspective on it.

One vote for Fahrenheit 451.

Still haven't gotten around to We yet - so many books, so little time, ya know. ;) (I was just thinking about what books I might put on might my Xmas wish list. We goes on.)

The Gulag Archipelago is the best book ever written about 'dystopia,' made moreso because it is true.

The Gulag Archipelago is the best book ever written about 'dystopia,' made moreso because it is true.

I'd say Lenin's Tomb is another good one, mainly because it shows just how decrepit the USSR was by the end of its existence.

I count 1984 just above We (though I actually prefer to read Zamyatin's work - he was the better writer technically).

I don't count Brave New World as a dystopia. A dystopia is a failed Utopia - but for it's citizenry, BNW is Utopia. Does the fact that we despise it say more about it, or us?

One vote for Fahrenheit 451.

Still haven't gotten around to We yet - so many books, so little time, ya know. ;) (I was just thinking about what books I might put on might my Xmas wish list. We goes on.)

I would like to echo this post.

In the future, you will eat green eggs and ham. You will eat them on the train, you will eat them in the rain, you will eat them on a plane, and if you ever even think about eating something else, Sam I Am will be on you like stink on a dead monkey who was killed for refusing to eat green eggs and ham.

"if you want a picture of the future, imagine green eggs and ham stomping on a human face - forever."

Four. Don't forget:

http://library.huttcity.govt.nz/Kids/Great_Reads/Recommended/images/Greeneggsandham.jpg

*nod*

Green eggs and ham are people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green).


I'll vote for Brave New World if, and only if, that option also includes Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_%281962_novel%29). The two books should really be one book in two volumes.

I liked Brave New World better than 1984, but 1984 still deserves to be at the top of the list. It has had a much larger effect on the general population, even creating new words that made it to common usage.

When people relate real life to dystopia, 1984 will always be the first book referenced.

Eh. I never really liked 1984. It's an "important" book, no doubt, but not too enjoyable otherwise, I don't think.

We read (in school, that is) "Darkness at Noon" immediately afterward. I prefer that one.

A Canticle for Liebowitz
Stand on Zanzibar
The Sheep Look Up

All kind of chilling.

The Sheep Look Up

.

I've been wanting to read that ever since I finished Stand on Zanzibar back in college, which I thought was fantastic. But I have to express a similar sentiment to Daistallia. Too many books,k so little time, especially now that I have a job and stuff :(

Out of the three given though I'd go for We, partially because it helped kick the whole thing off. But also because Brave New World didn't impress me as much, probably because I too high expectations of it.

Philip K Dick anyone?

Haven't read We yet. Of the other two... They were both excellent, but I'd have to say 1984 was the more chilling.

It has been some time since I read 1984 but I read A Brave New World very recently indeed and I was quite impressed by it. Of the two, I prefer A Brave New World. It is considerably more subtle and ambiguous than is 1984 because at the heart of Huxley's novel is an important question: are freedom and happiness irreconcilable? The novel never truly resolves this question: readers must formulate an answer for themselves. 1984 does not really offer the reader the same opportunity: it simply presents a society that would be horrific for all concerned and demands that the reader reject that society. Huxley's work is descriptive: it describes a situation and allows readers to make up their own minds. Orwell's work is prescriptive: it demands that we (as human beings) detest the society being displayed.

The other reason that I prefer Huxley's work is that it clearly shows the influence of Dostoevsky. The entire novel reads like an extended version of Dostoevsky's 'Legend of the Grand Inquisitor'.

Philip K Dick anyone?

Yes, the more the better :)

Though there are only a few that I would say could really be called "dystopian," though that may in part be due in part because my admiration wants to put him above standard SF fare.

It has been some time since I read 1984 but I read A Brave New World very recently indeed and I was quite impressed by it. Of the two, I prefer A Brave New World. It is considerably more subtle and ambiguous than is 1984 because at the heart of Huxley's novel is an important question: are freedom and happiness irreconcilable? The novel never truly resolves this question: readers must formulate an answer for themselves. 1984 does not really offer the reader the same opportunity: it simply presents a society that would be horrific for all concerned and demands that the reader reject that society. Huxley's work is descriptive: it describes a situation and allows readers to make up their own minds. Orwell's work is prescriptive: it demands that we (as human beings) detest the society being displayed.

The other reason that I prefer Huxley's work is that it clearly shows the influence of Dostoevsky. The entire novel reads like an extended version of Dostoevsky's 'Legend of the Grand Inquisitor'.


That's very interesting.

I've been wondering for a while if I should read BNW again, this time with more mature eyes.

Concept-wise, I kind of like Jennifer Government.

I think I kind of dismiss both 1984 and Brave New World since I had to study them both all those years ago at school. I re-read 1984 a few years ago and found myself back in the old English-class mindset of analysing the way it was written rather than allowing the subject matter itself do the talking.

Given the choice, I'd pick a Vonnegut or Dick story over any of the poll options.

I prefer Brave New World to 1984 - both excellent, but I gotta agree with Volyakovsky that BNW is less leading-by-the-nose.

I submit Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land.

1984, Fahrenheit 451, We, in that order. 1984 is unquestionably the greatest dsytopian novel purely because of its impact on wider society and the wide useage of its language.

As for the poster who wanted to elevate PKD above 'sci-fi', why? SF can be literature too! :D

Philip K Dick anyone?

The Penultimate Truth.

I haven't read any other than 1984, but I started Brave New World and wasn't keen on it. For this reason, I'm not voting yet.

I'll put We on my to read list. At the guy who suggested Stranger, I didn't really like that. It opened in a fairly dystopian way, but the world it was in seemed so inconsistant. I'd rate The Moon is a Harsh Mistress as much better.

You just can’t beat those Ruskies for misery-infested literature.

Might it be because their entire history is infested with nothing but pure and total misery?

Forget all those. Bioshock is the greatest dystopian... work... in history.

A Canticle for Liebowitz
Stand on Zanzibar
The Sheep Look Up

All kind of chilling.

The Sheep Look Up was certainly outstanding, along with several other Brunner books.

But I have to express a similar sentiment to Daistallia. Too many books,k so little time, especially now that I have a job and stuff :(

Came from a classic t-shirt I was given years ago, the memory of which was brought up recently.

Philip K Dick anyone?
Though there are only a few that I would say could really be called "dystopian," though that may in part be due in part because my admiration wants to put him above standard SF fare.

Some good stuff there.

Concept-wise, I kind of like Jennifer Government.

Had to come up eventually. :)

Given the choice, I'd pick a Vonnegut or Dick story over any of the poll options.

Vonnegut had some good ones, especially "Harrison Bergeron" and Player Piano.

I submit Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land.

Hmmm... I don't think you groked that one...

As for the poster who wanted to elevate PKD above 'sci-fi', why? SF can be literature too! :D

The comment wasn't that PKD was above SF, but above standard SF fare.

I'll add a few lesser known's that deserve mention:

Susan R. Matthews' An Exchange of Hostages - This is not explicitly dystopian, but more Kafka meets Space Opera, with shades of Mirbeau. However it does have dystopian themes - the totalitarian state that requires a highly skilled medical doctor to become a state sanctioned judge/tourturer.

David Wingrove's Chung Kuo had some interesting ideas.

Logan's Run is better known for the movie and TV series that came of it, but was a pretty good read. The trend seems to have been the reverese however...

George Turner's Drowning Towers was another one with some interesting ideas.

Can't beat 1984, the shock of such a totalitarian state is just so entertaining.

I wrote a paper on Dystopian literature back in High School, and I didn't know about We. Damn shame. I'll see if it falls into my lap now that I know about it.

The Eastern Block of the USSR had excellent authors.



Not dystopian. It was an allegory. I think, but I know it wasn't dystopian. What about The Handmaid's Tale? I've never even heard of We but I have heard The Handmaid's Tale referenced a few times.

Handmaids Tale.My favorite for the more modern dystopian tale. Seemed all to real, with the religious rights attack on reproductive rights and demonizing feminism. Reading that was the first time I pondered on the idea of emmigrating to Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Irae I always thought this was an interesting book, if not necessarily Dystopic.

As for the poster who wanted to elevate PKD above 'sci-fi', why? SF can be literature too! :D

I know, I know :D

If you come round and look at my bookshelf you'll see I agree.

Just dredging up memories from when I almost had a crush on him (well as much as one can when the person died shortly after I was born).

Came from a classic t-shirt I was given years ago, the memory of which was brought up recently.

I'm getting a sense of deja vu

It's not really dystopian in the same sense (or at all, technically) that 1984 is, but I think George Orwell's best book ever is Coming up for Air. Has anyone else read it? God, I love that book.

Might it be because their entire history is infested with nothing but pure and total misery?

Misery and wheat, vast fields of wheat. :p Although other slavic countries' literary traditions are a lot of fun, I've found. Not sure what the difference is.

Any chance of bringing this discussion onto Shakespeare, Milton or Wordsworth?

"1984" and "Brave New World" are currently on the long list of books I intend to get round to, at some point, eventually....:D

Any chance of bringing this discussion onto Shakespeare, Milton or Wordsworth?

If you find a good way of linkiing it ;)

Everyone's heard of 1984 by George Orwell, right? Room 101, Big Brother, "Oceania, 'Tis for Thee", thoughtcrime, etc.?
Or what about Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, with Our Ford, Malthusian drills, the Savage, "Ending is better than mending", and all of that?
What about Yevgeny Zamyatin's We? I-330, pink tickets, the Benefactor, the Integral?

These are the Three Great Dystopian Novels, works that created a new genre of literature and still have an impact on the world today. But which one deserved the title of The Greatest Dystopian Novel? Cast your vote!

Big Brother is watching you?
Community, Identity, Stability?
All hail the One State, all hail ciphers, all hail the Benefactor?
Vote now!

I have no desire to read any, but the more I hear about the concept of a dystopia, the less I'm bothered by it. Microchips under the skin? Is that really any different than everyone having a cellphone or PDA? Cameras everywhere? We can be seen anyway. Omni-present government officials? Think of how much faster police, firemen and ambulances could be dispatched.

When i started reading Brave New World I thought it was an utopia... I am one of the few people who prefers We.

I have no desire to read any, but the more I hear about the concept of a dystopia, the less I'm bothered by it. Microchips under the skin? Is that really any different than everyone having a cellphone or PDA? Cameras everywhere? We can be seen anyway. Omni-present government officials? Think of how much faster police, firemen and ambulances could be dispatched.

The difference is that now we have a choice. Imagine if the government suddenly decided it dislikes furries or gays or any sort or sexual deviant behavior and uses the data it has to crack down on them.

I personally loved BNW over 1984. Control of nature which lead to the complete lack of humanity. Turning humans into resources and into "Fords" assembly line altering the natural process of human evolution and creation. True both 1984 and BNW end with a loss but in BNW the death of John to me symbolises the death of the last human left.
TO me the absence of humanity leads me to believe BNW is the greatest dystopic novel.

But I have spent the last few months studying BNW in English but im in love with the book haha.

The difference is that now we have a choice. Imagine if the government suddenly decided it dislikes furries or gays or any sort or sexual deviant behavior and uses the data it has to crack down on them.

Crack down with *what?* Any sort of genocide is going to require a large armed force to perpetuate, and no group of Canadians would stand for such a thing.

I think the argument of lack of privacy leading to widespread persecution is kind of invalid until we have killer robots; even then, the government knowing where you are isn't going to prevent an armed rebellion from forming.

That's not to say it'd be impossible to get a large group of heinous people together to do heinous things, but that is a product of sociology, not technology. Cameras, tracking chips, DNA coding databases, despite their link with spooky sci-fi, can all be useful and beneficial if given the proper oversight and consideration.

Surprised no one has mentioned Little House on the Prairie yet...

Short.

Brave New World. Because all manner of humanity is lost in attempts to advance.

Surprised no one has mentioned Little House on the Prairie yet...

Or Anne of Green Gables...

I have no desire to read any, but the more I hear about the concept of a dystopia, the less I'm bothered by it. Microchips under the skin? Is that really any different than everyone having a cellphone or PDA? Cameras everywhere? We can be seen anyway. Omni-present government officials? Think of how much faster police, firemen and ambulances could be dispatched.

It seems to me you have misunderstood what is meant by the term "dystopia".


dys·to·pi·a /dɪsˈtoʊpiə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dis-toh-pee-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a society characterized by human misery, as squalor, oppression, disease, and overcrowding.
dystopia

noun
1. state in which the conditions of life are extremely bad as from deprivation or oppression or terror [ant: utopia]
2. a work of fiction describing an imaginary place where life is extremely bad because of deprivation or oppression or terror
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dystopia

The literal meanbing of the word is "bad place".

Some standard commonalities are an oppressively conformist society and a totalitarian government that employees extreme measures (torture) to control the populace.

Then there's the screwed up sexuality that's ever present. In We, as I understand it, anyone can require anyone else to have sex with them. In 1984, sex is totally repressed.

Do you really think any of these are worlds you want to live in?

1984 and The Handmaid's Tale are wondrous; I'm less keen on Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 as novels, though they're conceptually fascinating (and disturbing, of course).

Any chance of bringing this discussion onto Shakespeare, Milton or Wordsworth?
Titus Andronicus, the "wilderness of tigers"?

Semi-dystopic novels worth a look: The Forever War (Joe Haldeman), Riddley Walker (Russell Hoban). And a novella: Hardfought (Greg Bear). I'm sure there are many others that I don't recall at the moment.

1984 and The Handmaid's Tale are wondrous; I'm less keen on Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 as novels, though they're conceptually fascinating (and disturbing, of course).


Titus Andronicus, the "wilderness of tigers"?

Semi-dystopic novels worth a look: The Forever War (Joe Haldeman), Riddley Walker (Russell Hoban). And a novella: Hardfought (Greg Bear). I'm sure there are many others that I don't recall at the moment.

Might one consider the latter acts of "Macbeth" to be dystopian?

Anthem, of course.

It paints a picture of a society that is the logical conclusion of the mind-renouncing, life-rejecting philosophy that permeates modern life.

In We, as I understand it, anyone can require anyone else to have sex with them.

...

Do you really think any of these are worlds you want to live in?

..Yes. Yes I do.

In We, as I understand it, anyone can require anyone else to have sex with them.


Yeah, that's how it works (of course, it probably only applies to heterosexual pairings).
But the bad thing about that is that while you can have anyone you want, anyone else can have YOU if they want.
And I'll tell you right now, I would be very displeased if I had to have sex with Betty White.

Anthem, of course.

It paints a picture of a society that is the logical conclusion of the mind-renouncing, life-rejecting philosophy that permeates modern life.
Oh-oh.... an objectivist! :p

“There is black. There is white. And there is nothing in-between.”