NationStates Jolt Archive


The Coming War with Iran?

Daistallia 2104
20-09-2007, 17:58
A war between the US (plus at least some allies) and Iran has been looming ever larger.

I've been saying for ages that it won't occur, simply because the US is unable to carry it out in a realistic manner.

However, events over the last 6-12 months are starting to make me doubt that. I am coming to believe that the Bush administration will take advantage of it's lame duck position to carry out what it views as an imprtant strategic attack on Iran's nuclear program.

What do you think will happen?

Some considerations:

And what did the exercise show about Iran? In the week after the war game I interviewed the partici- pants about the views they had expressed "in role" and about their personal recommendations for the next President's approach. From these conversations, and from the participants' other writings and statements about Iran, the following themes emerged.

About Iran's intentions there is no disagreement. Iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons, and unless its policy is changed by the incentives it is offered or the warnings it receives, it will succeed.

About America's military options there is almost as clear a view. In circumstances of all-out war the United States could mount an invasion of Iran if it had to. If sufficiently provoked—by evidence that Iran was involved in a terrorist incident, for example, or that it was fomenting violence in Iraq—the United States could probably be effective with a punitive bomb-and-missile attack on Revolutionary Guard units.

But for the purposes most likely to interest the next American President—that is, as a tool to slow or stop Iran's progress toward nuclear weaponry—the available military options are likely to fail in the long term. A full-scale "regime change" operation has both obvious and hidden risks. The obvious ones are that the United States lacks enough manpower and equipment to take on Iran while still tied down in Iraq, and that domestic and international objections would be enormous. The most important hidden problem, exposed in the war-game discussions, was that a full assault would require such drawn-out preparations that the Iranian government would know months in advance what was coming. Its leaders would have every incentive to strike pre-emptively in their own defense. Unlike Saddam Hussein's Iraq, a threatened Iran would have many ways to harm America and its interests. Apart from cross-border disruptions in Iraq, it might form an outright alliance with al-Qaeda to support major new attacks within the United States. It could work with other oil producers to punish America economically. It could, as Hammes warned, apply the logic of "asymmetric," or "fourth-generation," warfare, in which a superficially weak adversary avoids a direct challenge to U.S. military power and instead strikes the most vulnerable points in American civilian society, as al-Qaeda did on 9/11. If it thought that the U.S. goal was to install a wholly new regime rather than to change the current regime's behavior, it would have no incentive for restraint.

What about a pre-emptive strike of our own, like the Osirak raid? The problem is that Iran's nuclear program is now much more advanced than Iraq's was at the time of the raid. Already the U.S. government has no way of knowing exactly how many sites Iran has, or how many it would be able to destroy, or how much time it would buy in doing so. Worse, it would have no way of predicting the long-term strategic impact of such a strike. A strike might delay by three years Iran's attainment of its goal—but at the cost of further embittering the regime and its people. Iran's intentions when it did get the bomb would be all the more hostile.

Here the United States faces what the military refers to as a "branches and sequels" decision—that is, an assessment of best and second-best outcomes. It would prefer that Iran never obtain nuclear weapons. But if Iran does, America would like Iran to see itself more or less as India does—as a regional power whose nuclear status symbolizes its strength relative to regional rivals, but whose very attainment of this position makes it more committed to defending the status quo. The United States would prefer, of course, that Iran not reach a new level of power with a vendetta against America. One of our panelists thought that a strike would help the United States, simply by buying time. The rest disagreed. Iran would rebuild after a strike, and from that point on it would be much more reluctant to be talked or bargained out of pursuing its goals—and it would have far more reason, once armed, to use nuclear weapons to America's detriment.

Most of our panelists felt that the case against a U.S. strike was all the more powerful against an Israeli strike. With its much smaller air force and much more limited freedom to use airspace, Israel would probably do even less "helpful" damage to Iranian sites. The hostile reaction—against both Israel and the United States—would be potentially more lethal to both Israel and its strongest backer.

A realistic awareness of these constraints will put the next President in an awkward position. In the end, according to our panelists, he should understand that he cannot prudently order an attack on Iran. But his chances of negotiating his way out of the situation will be greater if the Iranians don't know that. He will have to brandish the threat of a possible attack while offering the incentive of economic and diplomatic favors should Iran abandon its plans. "If you say there is no acceptable military option, then you end any possibility that there will be a non-nuclear Iran," David Kay said after the war game. "If the Iranians believe they will not suffer any harm, they will go right ahead." Hammes agreed: "The threat is always an important part of the negotiating process. But you want to fool the enemy, not fool yourself. You can't delude yourself into thinking you can do something you can't." Is it therefore irresponsible to say in public, as our participants did and we do here, that the United States has no military solution to the Iran problem? Hammes said no. Iran could not be sure that an American President, seeing what he considered to be clear provocation, would not strike. "You can never assume that just because a government knows something is unviable, it won't go ahead and do it. The Iraqis knew it was not viable to invade Iran, but they still did it. History shows that countries make very serious mistakes."

So this is how the war game turned out: with a finding that the next American President must, through bluff and patience, change the actions of a government whose motives he does not understand well, and over which his influence is limited. "After all this effort, I am left with two simple sentences for policymakers," Sam Gardiner said of his exercise. "You have no military solution for the issues of Iran. And you have to make diplomacy work."
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200412/fallows/6

The next war would begin with an intense air and naval campaign. Let's say you're planning the conflict as part of the staff of the Joint Chiefs. Your list of targets isn't that long -- only a few dozen nuclear sites -- but you can't risk retaliation from Tehran. So you allow 21 days for the bombardment, to be safe; you'd aim to strike every command-and-control facility, radar site, missile site, storage site, airfield, ship and base in Iran. To prevent world oil prices from soaring, you'd have to try to protect every oil and gas rig, and the big ports and load points. You'd need to use B-2s and lots of missiles up front, plus many small amphibious task forces to take out particularly tough targets along the coast, with manned and unmanned air reconnaissance. And don't forget the Special Forces, to penetrate deep inside Iran, call in airstrikes and drag the evidence of Tehran's nuclear ambitions out into the open for a world that's understandably skeptical of U.S. assertions that yet another Gulf rogue is on the brink of getting the bomb.

But if it's clear how a war with Iran would start, it's far less clear how it would end. How might Iran strike back? Would it unleash Hezbollah cells across Europe and the Middle East, or perhaps even inside the United States? Would Tehran goad Iraq's Shiites to rise up against their U.S. occupiers? And what would we do with Iran after the bombs stopped falling? We certainly could not occupy the nation with the limited ground forces we have left. So what would it be: Iran as a chastened, more tractable government? As a chaotic failed state? Or as a hardened and embittered foe?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/14/AR2007091401973.html

Target Iran - Air Strike Uncertainties

One major uncertainty concerning the probability of disarming preventive strike against Iran's nuclear infrastructure is the question of American and Israeli assessments of their confidence in their assessments of the completeness of their understanding of Iran's nuclear infrastructure. It will be recalled that when the US contemplated striking China's nuclear infrastructure in mid-1964, prior to China's first nuclear test, their were doubts about the completeness of US intelligence. In fact, the US was surprised when China detonated a uranium bomb, since the US had overestimated the progress of China's plutonium program, and seriously underestimated the progress of China's uranium enrichment program.

Iran's partners -- North Korea and Pakistan -- present contrasting studies in clandestine facilities. It appears that US intelligence has incomplete intelligence concerning some aspects of North Korea's plutonium program [mainly relating to whether there are undetected reprocessing facilities], and almost complete ignorance of the whereabouts of the DPRK's uranium program. The missing facilities are presumably at hidden underground locations. It is generally believed that Pakistan's major nuclear material production facilities are above ground and reasonably well characterized.

Iran appears to have a complete copy of Pakistan's fissile material production complex -- uranium conversion, uranium enrichment, heavy water production, and a heavy water plutonium production reactor. Elements of these facilities have been hardened against attack, notably the uranium enrichment facility at Natanz, which has been buried under a thick layer of earth. All of these facilities are heavily defended by anti-aircraft missiles and guns.

One cannot exclude the possibility, however, that some or all of the visible nuclear weapons complex is simply a decoy, designed to draw attention. It is possible that Iran, like North Korea and unlike Pakistan, has buried nuclear weapons production capabilities that have escaped detection, and would continue in operation even if the visible facilities were destroyed. There are persistent rumors of such hidden facilities, but little in the way of circumstantial evidence to give credence to these rumors.

Amrom Katz, a shrewd arms control analyst at Rand Corporation many years ago, said, "We have never found anything that the Soviets have successfully hidden" [ Verification and SALT: The Challenge of Strategic Deception, W.C. Potter, Ed. (Westview, Boulder, CO, 1980), p 212). The issue for attack planners is how many undetected facilities have been successfully hidden in Iran.

Assessing the probability of the existence of a parallel clandestine program must take into account probable Iranian strategies for successful completion of their weapons acquisition effort. There has been essentially no detectable discussion of this question in the open literature, which is something of a puzzle in itself. That is to say, is everything unfolding as they had foreseen, or have things gone badly off track?

* Iran may have [naively] assumed that the massive underground facilities at Natanz would escape detection, as would the other above ground facilities, and that there would be no need to declare their various other facilities to the international community. Under this scenario, now that these facilities have been detected, the rather thin cover stories for their various facilities would be proven inadequate, and one might hope that sweet reason might convince Iran to reconsider its commitment to nuclear weapons.
* Iran may have understood very clearly from the outset that its above ground facilities would be detected not too long after construction began. Indeed, the uranium conversion facility at Esfahan is at a site that was selected for such a capacity at the outset of the Shah's nuclear program in the 1970s, a fact that must have rendered this piece of real estate a suspect site long before actual construction began. The construction activity at Natanz and Arak would be visible even in 10-meter resolution wide-area imagery, so there could have been no realistic hope that these facilities would escape notice by the obscurity of their location. Although it is possible that the Iranians completely miscalculated the detective powers of the US and Israel, this does not seem plausible. Thus one must assume that Iran foresaw the crisis that would arise when their plans became clear, and planned accordingly.
1. Iran may have assumed that the US and Israel would lack the political resolve to strike at even a highly visible program, and that some combination of diplomatic pressure from Europe and the fear of Iranian retaliation would stay the hands of the Americans and Israelis. Iran may have assumed that other countries would be prepared to live with a "nearly nuclear" Iran, with a fissile material production complex under international supervision, though one which could be quickly converted to weapons production if the need arose. As of late 2004 Iran's leaders appeared to believe the gap between the US and Europe created a "security margin" for Tehran that would prevent any serious action against the Islamic Republic, whether in the form of Security Council sanctions or direct military action.
2. Iran may have believed from the outset that some combination of the United States and Israel would almost certainly develop and implement a high confidence disarming strike. In this case, there would have been compelling reasons to "dig tunnels deep", and bury their program from prying eyes. Under these circumstances, however, it is difficult to understand why Iran would have gone to the trouble of building the above ground facilities, knowing that they would create a host of problems.
3. Iran may have been unable to resolve this matter, and may have elected to build parallel above ground and underground programs. In the best case, this would augment their ultimate capabilities, and in the worst case it would provide them with a nuclear weapons capability even in the face of attempts at disarming military strikes. The above ground program would provide convincing evidence of Iran's ability to undertake the industrial scale production needed to develop a credible stockpile of dozens of weapons. Even if the overt infrastructure were destroyed, the fact of the existence of the residual underground facilities at an undisclosed location, could be credibly communicated to the outside world.

A September 2004 analysis by the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center concluded that, "As for eliminating Iran's nuclear capabilities militarily, the U.S. and Israel lack sufficient targeting intelligence to do this. In fact, Iran has long had considerable success in concealing its nuclear activities from U.S. intelligence analysts and International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors (the latter recently warned against assuming the agency could find all of Iran's illicit uranium enrichment activities). As it is, Iran could have already hidden all it needs to reconstitute a bomb program assuming its known declared nuclear plants are hit."

But the preponderance of evidence and reasoning leads to the assumption that there is no underground nuclear infrastructure, and that the above ground infrastructure constitutes Iran's nuclear weapons program.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iran-strikes-doubt.htm
Corneliu 2
20-09-2007, 18:02
1) Post is to damn long for me to actually read all of it.

2) No war is going to happen.
Daistallia 2104
20-09-2007, 18:07
1) Post is to damn long for me to actually read all of it.

LOL Well at least you're willing to admit to that. Unlike other things...

2) No war is going to happen.

Get back to me in late 2008.
Glorious Freedonia
20-09-2007, 18:23
I stopped reading that long post when I read something about America not having adequate manpower to fight in Iran. That is just silly. As a matter of policy ever since WWII force levels have been maintained at such a level to allow us to conduct a two front war at any time. Iran is right next door to Iraq and Afghanistan and would not even count as a second theatre. We can do an awful lot with our air force alone that is already in place in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Although I did not read the whole post I think you really underestimated the power of our military.

Did you know that America spends equal to or more on our military than the rest of the world combined?
Corneliu 2
20-09-2007, 18:33
LOL Well at least you're willing to admit to that. Unlike other things...

Um...ok. Whatever

Get back to me in late 2008.

Um no. I'll tell you right now. There will not be a war by 2008 nor in 2009 either with Iran.
Khanat horde
20-09-2007, 18:39
I stopped reading that long post when I read something about America not having adequate manpower to fight in Iran. That is just silly. As a matter of policy ever since WWII force levels have been maintained at such a level to allow us to conduct a two front war at any time. Iran is right next door to Iraq and Afghanistan and would not even count as a second theatre. We can do an awful lot with our air force alone that is already in place in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Although I did not read the whole post I think you really underestimated the power of our military.

Did you know that America spends equal to or more on our military than the rest of the world combined?


Well just cause you spend alot of money doesnt mean its good. And you will loose there is not a question about it.
Unabashed Greed
20-09-2007, 18:41
Well, you'll never convince me that those nukes on that B-52 was an accident. I think they were definitely headed for the middle east. Why else would they have "accidentally" ended up at the main staging base for things headed to Iraq? I don't WANT to think that this is will be the GOPs way to keep power by calling off elections because of a third war, but the paranoia is hard to ignore.
Iceapria
20-09-2007, 18:42
The Amazing Creskin only left one topic out of his divinations: Politics. Why? Because it's so fluid and dynamic that you can't tell what'll happen tomorrow, let alone in a year and a half. Okay, I made the first half of that up, but the point stands true.
Newer Burmecia
20-09-2007, 18:55
I'm sceptical - I'm not sure that Bush's military advisers would want to have to deal with the effects of any kind of pre-emptive strike in Iraq. But - it does seem to be more likely as time goes on.
Daistallia 2104
20-09-2007, 18:57
I stopped reading that long post when I read something about America not having adequate manpower to fight in Iran. That is just silly. As a matter of policy ever since WWII force levels have been maintained at such a level to allow us to conduct a two front war at any time. Iran is right next door to Iraq and Afghanistan and would not even count as a second theatre. We can do an awful lot with our air force alone that is already in place in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Although I did not read the whole post I think you really underestimated the power of our military.

Did you know that America spends equal to or more on our military than the rest of the world combined?

Err.. come back when you can do simple math.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/Parameters/1995/quinliv.htm
Corneliu 2
20-09-2007, 18:58
Well, you'll never convince me that those nukes on that B-52 was an accident. I think they were definitely headed for the middle east. Why else would they have "accidentally" ended up at the main staging base for things headed to Iraq? I don't WANT to think that this is will be the GOPs way to keep power by calling off elections because of a third war, but the paranoia is hard to ignore.

I hate conspiracy theories :rolleyes:
Newer Burmecia
20-09-2007, 19:00
I stopped reading that long post when I read something about America not having adequate manpower to fight in Iran. That is just silly. As a matter of policy ever since WWII force levels have been maintained at such a level to allow us to conduct a two front war at any time. Iran is right next door to Iraq and Afghanistan and would not even count as a second theatre. We can do an awful lot with our air force alone that is already in place in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Although I did not read the whole post I think you really underestimated the power of our military.

Did you know that America spends equal to or more on our military than the rest of the world combined?
And yet, America with allies, is unable to keep the peace in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure, America could defeat Iran, but can America deal with the repercussions?
Daistallia 2104
20-09-2007, 19:01
Um...ok. Whatever

All I'llk say here is that you are still a lying chicken hawk and we both know it.

Um no. I'll tell you right now. There will not be a war by 2008 nor in 2009 either with Iran.

Put your moxy where your mouth is and you might have some cred.
Daistallia 2104
20-09-2007, 19:04
can America deal with the repercussions?

The answer's found in a few short paragraphs that GF (and Corny) couldn't be bothered to read...
Daistallia 2104
20-09-2007, 19:08
Good night kiddies. I hope that some worthwhile post show up when I wake up.
Gataway
20-09-2007, 19:14
I don't think there will be a war with Iran anytime soon unless some 9/11 type terrorist attack occurs soon and they can prove Iran was in some way support of it...that or if Iran attacks Israel...however if the government of Iraq would get its act together..and make political progress then economic progress would follow...

The Iranian people already live in fear etc etc from the oppressive government and if one or both of their neighbors experienced political freedoms and economic growth ideas will start flowing between the two groups and Iran would fall (its leadership anyways) much the same way the Soviet Union did... Which is what I believe will eventually happen anyways...without foreign intervention...

As for Manpower and equipment..our front line combat troops are stretched thin...at least emotionally..deployments get longer while RR time is cut short..we aren't in a crisis situation but fighting Iran while baby sitting the impotent Iraqi and Afghan forces would be an unneeded stress...although our air force alone could devastate Iran and cripple it internally
Corneliu 2
20-09-2007, 19:24
Put your moxy where your mouth is and you might have some cred.

All I can say right now is that I am not going to jump the gun like some people on this board.
Maximus Corporation
20-09-2007, 19:30
Err.. come back when you can do simple math.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/Parameters/1995/quinliv.htm

That's, um only if America chose to stay in Iran and "enforce democracy" akin to Iraq.
Did you read the article before you linked to it?
Aurill
20-09-2007, 19:31
Err.. come back when you can do simple math.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/Parameters/1995/quinliv.htm

Actually, according to a budget for fiscal year 2004 Glorious Freedonia is almost correct. US expenditures on military was about $466 bln. The rest of the world combine was about $500 bln.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
Dontgonearthere
20-09-2007, 20:15
I don't WANT to think that this is will be the GOPs way to keep power by calling off elections because of a third war, but the paranoia is hard to ignore.

If that happens theyre gonna have a real hard time instituting a draft, what with the civil war and all.
Ashmoria
20-09-2007, 20:44
i suppose bush might decide to nuke iran in the waning days of his presidency. a nice christmas '08 mushroom cloud for jesus perhaps.

but we cant INVADE iran. we dont have the troops for it.

better to have israel do it by proxy. then we can just sit back and enjoy the chaos.
Andaluciae
20-09-2007, 20:45
I, myself, am fairly certain that war with Iran is not only unlikely, but phenomenally poorly advised, even under a best case scenario. American resources are stretched far too thin, especially in Iraq where they would be most vulnerable to Iranian counterattacks, our allies would be open to attacks through implanted terrorist groups around the world, and global oil supplies, already strained as they are, would be put in immense jeopardy.

Furthermore, geographically Iraq would seem to be vitally important as a jumping off point, and base of operations so as to permit the US to move against Iran. Politically, though, that's not the case. It is likely that Iran friendly Shi'a in Iraq would likely rise up against US occupation forces in that country, jeopardizing our supply lines, limiting our freedom of operation from our bases in Iraq, etc., etc.

Furthermore, the Iranian general public is still unconvinced that their government's course of action is the optimal choice. Launching a campaign against Iran would merely alienate the more moderate elements of Iranian society, and turn their doubt and uncertainty into pure support for the national government. They will likely bring about changes within Iranian society, and allowing moderates and liberals in Iran to prosper and flourish on their own is the best option to convince them of our good intentions.

Beyond all of that, there is no evidence that would lead us to believe that we could successfully dismantle the entirety of the Iranian nuclear program within the confines of a military campaign. That is our goal, and I feel that the best way to guarantee our success of meeting that goal would be to work within international frameworks, and to not opt for war.

I think that even the Bush administration, despite their usually bellicose talk towards Iran realizes that an invasion of that country is foolish, and they likely express this viewpoint to other world leaders. I feel that, rather, the US and allies are leading a political and economic offensive against Iran, and the insistence in avoiding violent alternatives this offensive is made far more palatable to certain countries who would otherwise be rather hostile to the concept of confronting Iran.


In short, military conflict with Iran is tactically and strategically foolish, the US and allied governments knows this, and will not go to war as a result of this knowledge.
Kyronea
20-09-2007, 20:45
I hope there's not going to be a war with Iran. I'm going to be joining the Navy soon and I picked the Navy precisely so I didn't have to fight in Iraq. I'm not all that keen on joining the Navy to avoid one war only to find myself helping to start another one.
Ferrous Oxide
20-09-2007, 20:58
I like that last bit, "You have to make diplomacy work". Yeah, tell that to Neville Chamberlain.

Are people fucking retarded? Do they not understand that sometimes, diplomacy simply cannot work?
Kyronea
20-09-2007, 21:01
I like that last bit, "You have to make diplomacy work". Yeah, tell that to Neville Chamberlain.

Are people fucking retarded? Do they not understand that sometimes, diplomacy simply cannot work?

No, but in this case violence most certainly cannot work. Did you try reading the entire thing? It made it very clear that any attempt by the U.S. military to build up the necessary forces to invade Iran would be seeable months in advance and would make it clear to Iran that they have no way of avoiding it, and by backing them into that kind of a corner, we'll force them to utilize any means necessary of striking back at the U.S., which would put many civilians in terrible danger.

In this case, diplomacy is by far the way to go.
Ferrous Oxide
20-09-2007, 21:16
In this case, diplomacy is by far the way to go.

Until we're nuked. Then, we repeat history by declaring war, but not actually doing anything until half of the world is in Iran's hands.

Why stop there? Hows about we ignore the concentration camps too?
Kyronea
20-09-2007, 21:22
Until we're nuked. Then, we repeat history by declaring war, but not actually doing anything until half of the world is in Iran's hands.

Why stop there? Hows about we ignore the concentration camps too?
Because there are many serious differences here.

Iran is not trying to take over the world nor have they done anything to even indicate that. The government is merely trying to acquire nuclear weapons as a deterrent against what they perceive as United States aggression with no solid basis, which I think we can all agree was exactly what truly happened with Iraq.

The Iranian people do not by far agree with everything that the Iranian government is doing, unlike Nazi Germany whereas by 1937 the Germans all pretty much supported the government fully.

Iran has no concentration camps or anything like that.

Really, all of your comparisons are foolish and stupid. Yes, learn from history, but don't presume that everything that happens is a repeat of history. When people say that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, they mean repeating crucial mistakes. In this case, a crucial mistake would be to attack in a military fashion, whereas the best course of action is diplomacy.

But hey, if Australia wants to go and piss off the world and Iran and try to attack, you can be our guest.
Ashmoria
20-09-2007, 21:28
I hope there's not going to be a war with Iran. I'm going to be joining the Navy soon and I picked the Navy precisely so I didn't have to fight in Iraq. I'm not all that keen on joining the Navy to avoid one war only to find myself helping to start another one.

yeah that would suck.

not going for service in a nuclear sub are you?
Corneliu 2
20-09-2007, 21:38
Iran is not trying to take over the world nor have they done anything to even indicate that. The government is merely trying to acquire nuclear weapons as a deterrent against what they perceive as United States aggression with no solid basis, which I think we can all agree was exactly what truly happened with Iraq.

Iran acquiring nuclear weapons violates the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty that they are a member of. Until the pull out of it, they are honor bound to it.
Kyronea
20-09-2007, 22:19
yeah that would suck.

not going for service in a nuclear sub are you?

I honestly have no idea...I haven't yet spoken to a recruiter and officially joined yet because I'm waiting for a couple things--dealing with a jury summons as well as giving my recently wedge removed toe nails a chance to heal--but I don't think I would, mainly because I am claustrophobic and I don't think I could handle being in a sub.
Iran acquiring nuclear weapons violates the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty that they are a member of. Until the pull out of it, they are honor bound to it.
Are they a signatory of that? I don't recall Iran being a signatory, but that is worth checking out.

And if they are violating it, that's a matter for, again, diplomacy, not violence.
Soviestan
20-09-2007, 22:22
A war with Iran could actually lose the US its superpower status. I would like to think the US government isn't stupid enough to do it. but I could be wrong.
Corneliu 2
20-09-2007, 22:22
Are they a signatory of that? I don't recall Iran being a signatory, but that is worth checking out.

Iran is indeed a signatory to the NPT

And if they are violating it, that's a matter for, again, diplomacy, not violence.

And as has been stated, and ignored, no one is advocating violence.
Tekania
20-09-2007, 22:23
I stopped reading that long post when I read something about America not having adequate manpower to fight in Iran. That is just silly. As a matter of policy ever since WWII force levels have been maintained at such a level to allow us to conduct a two front war at any time. Iran is right next door to Iraq and Afghanistan and would not even count as a second theatre. We can do an awful lot with our air force alone that is already in place in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Although I did not read the whole post I think you really underestimated the power of our military.

Did you know that America spends equal to or more on our military than the rest of the world combined?

I think the issue is that our military man-power is already over-committed in Iraq. We've already over-deployed our existing active and reserve personnel. We might be able to engage in combat with Iran, but we lack the manpower for a full scale action required to actually win, past doing anything other than temporary damage to their nuclear infrastructure.
Ashmoria
20-09-2007, 22:26
I honestly have no idea...I haven't yet spoken to a recruiter and officially joined yet because I'm waiting for a couple things--dealing with a jury summons as well as giving my recently wedge removed toe nails a chance to heal--but I don't think I would, mainly because I am claustrophobic and I don't think I could handle being in a sub.

Are they a signatory of that? I don't recall Iran being a signatory, but that is worth checking out.

And if they are violating it, that's a matter for, again, diplomacy, not violence.

i read that they are giving bonuses to those who sign up and agree to go to basic training immediately. (although i suppose that might only be for the army) so it might be a very good idea to be fit for duty the day you go into the recuriters office.
Kyronea
20-09-2007, 22:28
Iran is indeed a signatory to the NPT

Interesting.

And as has been stated, and ignored, no one is advocating violence.
I didn't say you were advocating violence...I was pointing out to those that are--such as Ferrous Oxide--that it would be a bad idea.

i read that they are giving bonuses to those who sign up and agree to go to basic training immediately. (although i suppose that might only be for the army) so it might be a very good idea to be fit for duty the day you go into the recuriters office.
That sounds like Army only to me too...what exactly is required for being fit for duty anyway?
Lacadaemon
20-09-2007, 22:28
I don't know why we just don't have some type of foreign legion thingy. That would solve the manpower problem.
Tekania
20-09-2007, 22:32
The only thing I'm glad is that I'm not draftable, and past my inactive reserve time.
Free Socialist Allies
20-09-2007, 22:38
This country is fucking insane.

Personally, if America goes to war with Iran, I hope at least other nations will stand up for themselves and refuse to join in.
Sel Appa
20-09-2007, 23:12
We should just lock every Middle Eastern leader in a room and tell them they have to figure out peace. Limited food supplies will be administered, with water. A small bathroom will be in the corner. A binding document signed by all must be presented for them to leave.
Tekania
20-09-2007, 23:16
We should just lock every Middle Eastern leader in a room and tell them they have to figure out peace. Limited food supplies will be administered, with water. A small bathroom will be in the corner. A binding document signed by all must be presented for them to leave.

We can televise it as the first Middle-Eastern Cage Match, and sell it on Pay-Per -View....
Kyronea
20-09-2007, 23:18
We should just lock every Middle Eastern leader in a room and tell them they have to figure out peace. Limited food supplies will be administered, with water. A small bathroom will be in the corner. A binding document signed by all must be presented for them to leave.

That would be nice and easy, wouldn't it?

Unfortunately, the necessary kidnapping of each leader would cause such an international upset that we'd likely spark off a major war throughout the entire Middle East.
New Stalinberg
20-09-2007, 23:27
Bullshit.

There is absolutely isn't even the slightest bit of sane and logical thought that "America should go to war with Iran."

Nothing would be accomplished, absolutely nothing, except an all out war that would probably end up being World War 3.
Iniika
20-09-2007, 23:57
This country is fucking insane.

Personally, if America goes to war with Iran, I hope at least other nations will stand up for themselves and refuse to join in.

Dear America:

Please stop pissing off the kids across the street. They might throw a rock through our window, thinking that it's yours.

Regards,
Your friend and neighbour,
Canada

:D
Daistallia 2104
21-09-2007, 02:06
That's, um only if America chose to stay in Iran and "enforce democracy" akin to Iraq.
Did you read the article before you linked to it?

The point was that we have insuficient forces to deal with the current two wars.

Actually, according to a budget for fiscal year 2004 Glorious Freedonia is almost correct. US expenditures on military was about $466 bln. The rest of the world combine was about $500 bln.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

Not about the insufficient force levels. Go back and read that article again. , then sit down and figure the forces we'd need to properly secure Iraq and Afghanistan. Subtract that from the forces we have, and you'll come up with a negative number. If we can't come up with the forces to win our current wars, we certainly can't come up with sufficient ground forces for Iran.

i suppose bush might decide to nuke iran in the waning days of his presidency. a nice christmas '08 mushroom cloud for jesus perhaps.

At this point, I am beginning to wonder if Bush might not just do that.

but we cant INVADE iran. we dont have the troops for it.

Exactly so.


In short, military conflict with Iran is tactically and strategically foolish,

True, true, all to true.

the US and allied governments knows this, and will not go to war as a result of this knowledge.

The current US government has heaped foolishness upon foolishness upon foolishness in it's military adventures. I see no change in Bush in regards to this.

I like that last bit, "You have to make diplomacy work". Yeah, tell that to Neville Chamberlain.

Are people fucking retarded? Do they not understand that sometimes, diplomacy simply cannot work?

And sometimes war simply cannot work.

No, but in this case violence most certainly cannot work. Did you try reading the entire thing? It made it very clear that any attempt by the U.S. military to build up the necessary forces to invade Iran would be seeable months in advance and would make it clear to Iran that they have no way of avoiding it, and by backing them into that kind of a corner, we'll force them to utilize any means necessary of striking back at the U.S., which would put many civilians in terrible danger.

In this case, diplomacy is by far the way to go.

Indeed.

A war with Iran could actually lose the US its superpower status. I would like to think the US government isn't stupid enough to do it. but I could be wrong.

Doubtful, on both counts.

Iran is indeed a signatory to the NPT

Correct.

And as has been stated, and ignored, no one is advocating violence.

This is the first time I've heard you say this. I'm impressed, given your past track record. College seems to have done you some good. :D

I think the issue is that our military man-power is already over-committed in Iraq. We've already over-deployed our existing active and reserve personnel. We might be able to engage in combat with Iran, but we lack the manpower for a full scale action required to actually win, past doing anything other than temporary damage to their nuclear infrastructure.

Exactly so. We have sufficient air assets to engage in the extended bombing camapign required, but not the ability to deal with the blowback that just an air campaign would cause.

I don't know why we just don't have some type of foreign legion thingy. That would solve the manpower problem.

Err... nope. What is needed is to return the congressionally mandated force levels to their pre-"peace dividend" drawdown levels.

Bullshit.

There is absolutely isn't even the slightest bit of sane and logical thought that "America should go to war with Iran."

Nothing would be accomplished, absolutely nothing, except an all out war that would probably end up being World War 3.

Indeed. I for one, have (as should be obvious now) given up on this administration's sanity and logic.
Lacadaemon
21-09-2007, 02:42
Err... nope. What is needed is to return the congressionally mandated force levels to their pre-"peace dividend" drawdown levels.


Oh, c'mon. It's a brilliant idea. For a start it would be so much cheaper. No need to fund GI bill and VA benefit stuff, just promise a name change and a passport.
Free Socialist Allies
21-09-2007, 02:46
Dear America:

Please stop pissing off the kids across the street. They might throw a rock through our window, thinking that it's yours.

Regards,
Your friend and neighbour,
Canada

:D

Canada is where I'm at if there's a draft. Thank God I've formed countless internet relationships with various people around the world, being a homeless Canadian is only a little better than fighting for America.
Old Tacoma
21-09-2007, 02:55
i suppose bush might decide to nuke iran in the waning days of his presidency. a nice christmas '08 mushroom cloud for jesus perhaps.

but we cant INVADE iran. we dont have the troops for it.

better to have israel do it by proxy. then we can just sit back and enjoy the chaos.

I doubt a nuclear weapon would be used on Iran. We can invade Iran if we wanted to. Would be a simple build up in Iraq and a quick trip east into Iran. With a war raging in Iran the insurgency in Iraq would settle down to a point the Iraqi's can handle it. If other nations such as France and other European allies joined the fray there would be more then ample troops to overthrow the Iranian regime. We as in the US and Europe do not want Israel to do it because of the problems associated with the "Ebil Joo's".

At this point I support an air campaign against them.
Vetalia
21-09-2007, 03:00
I doubt a nuclear weapon would be used on Iran. We can invade Iran if we wanted to. Would be a simple build up in Iraq and a quick trip east into Iran. With a war raging in Iran the insurgency in Iraq would settle down to a point the Iraqi's can handle it. If other nations such as France and other European allies joined the fray there would be more then ample troops to overthrow the Iranian regime. We as in the US and Europe do not want Israel to do it because of the problems associated with the "Ebil Joo's"..

The problem is, our military is badly stretched and worn out as is. Another campaign would beat us up badly unless we pull a Gulf War and leave as soon as critical objectives have been completed, and all that does is lead to more problems. Given that Iran is about three times the size of Iraq, you'd need at least 500,000 troops to have a comparable US presence to our forces in Iraq, and probably far more if you wanted half a chance of truly securing the country. We simply don't have that kind of manpower.

And I doubt Iraq will settle down if war explodes in Iran. Hordes of armed immigrants, not to mention army remnants and the like, will likely flood the country and cause a huge upswing in the insurgents' activity, causing casualties and weakening our grip on the country.

Invading Iran would cause our entire war on terrorism to collapse.
Free Socialist Allies
21-09-2007, 03:00
At this point I support an air campaign against them.

Because our ever so ethical military will use their smart bombs to take out only the nuclear facilities...? Bullshit, they'll drop carpet bombs and kill everything that moves, just like they did in Afghanistan.

America has little reputation left. One more war, and I think the term "evil empire" can rightfully be ressurected and reassigned to America.
Free Socialist Allies
21-09-2007, 03:03
Invading Iran would cause our entire war on terrorism to collapse.

There is no war on terrorism. I do not accept that term and refuse to use it without acknowledging it as a trademark slogan used by the neocons to hide their intentions.
Corneliu 2
21-09-2007, 03:08
This is the first time I've heard you say this. I'm impressed, given your past track record. College seems to have done you some good. :D

Of course, I would rather have diplomacy work. But as my favorite line in a song goes: "I pray for peace, prepare for war." I do not want a war with Iran any more than I wanted a second war with Iraq.
Old Tacoma
21-09-2007, 03:17
Because our ever so ethical military will use their smart bombs to take out only the nuclear facilities...? Bullshit, they'll drop carpet bombs and kill everything that moves, just like they did in Afghanistan.

America has little reputation left. One more war, and I think the term "evil empire" can rightfully be ressurected and reassigned to America.

Carpet bombing will not be the most effective way to destroy their nuclear facilities. If it were then I would support that method.

Reputation with who? The radicals and the bleeding heart cry babies?

As far as I am concerned the war has already started with Iran. They are fighting us by proxy in Iraq as we speak. Time to bring the war to their nuclear facilities.
Old Tacoma
21-09-2007, 03:20
snip...

If we used air-power and surgical strike teams with a border enforcement action. While we are at it sink anything in the straights with an Iranian flag flying along with destroying any offensive capabilities on the shore. Let the Iranian people overthrow their own government with US arms and money.
Old Tacoma
21-09-2007, 03:22
There is no war on terrorism. I do not accept that term and refuse to use it without acknowledging it as a trademark slogan used by the neocons to hide their intentions.

Would you be happy with global war on Islam? If not what description best suits your tastes?
Tape worm sandwiches
21-09-2007, 03:22
whatever happens (and we all hope &/or pray they do not put the world/planet at even more risk by invading Iran),
if they use nukes,
the world will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ev er
forgive the thing that is called the united states.
ever

it will probably have to be dismantled like Germany was.
but even if it isn't,
the world will never forgive them if they use any sort of nuke.
ever
Free Socialist Allies
21-09-2007, 03:27
Let the Iranian people overthrow their own government with US arms and money.

But you see, we already did that, when we let the religious radicals overthrow Iran's secular government 30 years ago with our help.

The same way we armed Saddam against Iran.

The same way Bush has made such great friends with the leaders of the nation that gave al-Queda more support than anyone else.

See a pattern here?
Free Socialist Allies
21-09-2007, 03:29
Would you be happy with global war on Islam? If not what description best suits your tastes?

I'd be happy with "War to Dominate the World Through 'Free' Trade and Economic Globilization". A factually accurate term to describe the bigger picture of the bloodbath in the Middle East.
Free Socialist Allies
21-09-2007, 03:30
whatever happens (and we all hope &/or pray they do not put the world/planet at even more risk by invading Iran),
if they use nukes,
the world will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ev er
forgive the thing that is called the united states.
ever

it will probably have to be dismantled like Germany was.
but even if it isn't,
the world will never forgive them if they use any sort of nuke.
ever


I'm done with this country. I am a citizen of the world cuurently residing in America.
Marrakech II
21-09-2007, 03:48
I'm done with this country. I am a citizen of the world cuurently residing in America.

*Yawn
Iceapria
21-09-2007, 03:48
I'm done with this country. I am a citizen of the world cuurently residing in America.

So, you're renouncing your citizenship? Go ahead. Enjoy Mexico!
Kyronea
21-09-2007, 04:06
*Yawn

Personally, I think that's a good idea...being a citizen of the world rather than any one nation...a member of humanity rather than some specific group.
Marrakech II
21-09-2007, 04:30
Personally, I think that's a good idea...being a citizen of the world rather than any one nation...a member of humanity rather than some specific group.

We always are and always can say we are a member of humanity. I just yawn when someone announces it in a way that this poster did.
Marrakech II
21-09-2007, 04:31
I'd be happy with "War to Dominate the World Through 'Free' Trade and Economic Globilization". A factually accurate term to describe the bigger picture of the bloodbath in the Middle East.

I always say if we don't do it someone else will.