NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not sure how many people here play online games, but I'm guessing a fair number. Here's a bit of history from the venerable Ultima Online (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online):


Players who prefer PvE or other non-confrontational styles of play are often referred to by the derogatory term Carebears. This is a reference to the popular 80's American toy series and cartoon show the Care Bears, which emphasized "caring and sharing" rather than violence.

The term "Carebear" originated in the online game Ultima Online when it referred to a method of dealing with particularly violent playing styles. The joke originally started on the Crossroads of Britannia message board where there were two large groups of roleplayers, one from Chesapeake and the other from the Lake Superior server. The latter were more into PvP and the former a more peaceful style of roleplaying. The Chesapeake group referred to the LS group as the "biker gang" and the "Carebear" term was put on the Chesapeake group. One night, the Chesapeake group invaded Silk's Tavern on Lake Superior by creating throwaway characters with names from the original TV show and "attacked" the assorted group of people roleplaying at the tavern. The attackers used hugs and "Carebear Stares!" to cuddle up with the LS group - frustrating them greatly in the middle of a large melee with other PvP groups.

The real start of this came when a PK guild, KOC, repeatedly attacked the non-violent roleplaying sessions of a group on the Chesapeake server at their tavern. Elawyn of Yew, one of the roleplayers, initiated a policy of not fighting back and carrying no items to steal, thus giving no satisfaction to the grievers. This later escalated to creating an entire set of new characters carrying low level daggers that could not be stolen but which were poisoned by a master poisoner. At the height of this action, the roleplayers waylaid the leader of KOC, mobbing him with more low level characters than he could kill and repeatedly stabbing him til he died. His castle keys were looted from his corpse, copies made and then handed out to every "anti-PK" guild on the server. This resulted in pitched battles for control of KOC's castle which they ultimately were forced to abandon.

Source (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm?POST=1366737&bhjs=0) post #34.

Now the reason I post this is that a lot of people use the term Carebear in a derogatory manner. I stumbled upon this bit of history on another forum I frequent with a few very old time UO players. Made me feel a bit nostalgic for the "good old days". Then I remember how brutal those times were, and how much it sucked to lose weeks or months worth of work to an ambush. Of course I also remember the counter ambushes. Mixed feelings about that old game.

Now here's the actual discussiony bit, what MMOs if any have you played, and which was your favorite? Which one did you hate most?

Personally UO was, and is still my favorite, though I preferred it back when it was still brutal. Game I absolutely loathed was EverQuest. They had some neat ideas, but their entire gameplay modus operandi was grind grind grind and grind some more.

Say what you will, PKers in Rappelz are the scum of the earth.

Runescape and World of Warcraft are the 2 mmorpgs that I like to play.



Runescape is decent for not having to pay or download anything, and wow just looks good.

they both have stuff to do besides grind, which is always a plus.






I might be odd since it seems RSer hate WoWers and vise versa...

Runescape and World of Warcraft are the 2 mmorpgs that I like to play.



Runescape is decent for not having to pay or download anything, and wow just looks good.

they both have stuff to do besides grind, which is always a plus.






I might be odd since it seems RSer hate WoWers and vise versa...

I play WoW almost exclusively now, but I don't hate Runescape players, I just think it's a terrible game.

I play WoW almost exclusively now, but I don't hate Runescape players, I just think it's a terrible game.

Oh yeah, it needs some sort of overhaul in the control system at the very least, but for not downloading and being free (or only $5 for members) its not too bad.

The only "MMO" I played on a regular basis was an Aliens v Predator MUD back in 97-99. I played WoW for a bit, but I just can't stand grinding. Oh, and I played Star Wars Reality (another MUD) quite a bit, but after Durga closed it everyone tried starting their own MUD with the SWR codebase, so there were 50 MUDs with 5 people on it, rather than 1 with 250.

Runescape is decent for not having to pay or download anything, and wow just looks good.

they both have stuff to do besides grind, which is always a plus.
Other stuff to do besides grind? What runescape game are you playing? Even the secondary activities in runescape are all pure grind.

I started with UO.

My MMO of choice is City of Heroes/Villains now. *nod*

I started with UO.

My MMO of choice is City of Heroes/Villains now. *nod*
What shard?

in my opinion, the best mmo on the market right now, and the one I play, is Vanguard.

I used to run with a PvP clan on a Warcraft RPPvP server, Horde side. We'd raid Alliance towns weekly and occasionally roam zones killing off Alliance players for the fun of it. There wasn't much to be gained in WoW PvP but bragging rights, but that was enough to make it fun for a while.

KoL. Bestest MMO ever.

What shard?

Pretty much all of them. Heh. I have 109 character. But lately, I've been spending a lot of time on Virtue. *nod*

I played Evercrack for a very short time, just to try it out.

Other than that, it's pretty much been WoW for me - mostly horde side.

EQ was my first MMO and, by far, my favorite. Some absolutely great memories from that game, of people and events. Played WoW a good deal and, while it's fun, it just doesn't "do it" for me and leaves me feeling very unsatisfied. I actually really Vanguard, but it admittedly released too early so I left it. I may still return eventually, but dunno.

If EVE's skill system didn't make me feel like no matter what I will never be able to catch up simply because I didn't start playing on release, I'd love it. This is why I'm looking towards Pirates of the Burning Seas; its economy seems to be similar to EVE's set up but the skill system is a bit more fair, imo. I'm also anticipating The Secret World, but no one even knows what that game is going to be remotely like, at this point. Finally, if they ever designed a MMORTS, holy crap...would I be there.

I actually really Vanguard, but it admittedly released too early so I left it. I may still return eventually, but dunno.


You should, it has improved significantly since release.

EQ was my first MMO and, by far, my favorite. Some absolutely great memories from that game, of people and events. Played WoW a good deal and, while it's fun, it just doesn't "do it" for me and leaves me feeling very unsatisfied. I actually really Vanguard, but it admittedly released too early so I left it. I may still return eventually, but dunno.

If EVE's skill system didn't make me feel like no matter what I will never be able to catch up simply because I didn't start playing on release, I'd love it. This is why I'm looking towards Pirates of the Burning Seas; its economy seems to be similar to EVE's set up but the skill system is a bit more fair, imo. I'm also anticipating The Secret World, but no one even knows what that game is going to be remotely like, at this point. Finally, if they ever designed a MMORTS, holy crap...would I be there.

EverQuest was just so god damned frustrating. Everything took forever, and dying really really sucked if you weren't a priest. Brad and his ilk were more interested in pursuing a masochistic Vision™ than in making a good game. I mean dear god, a wizard that blew all his mana would be sitting around for 10 minutes waiting for it to come back, just to blow it all again on the next mob.

EverQuest was just so god damned frustrating. Everything took forever, and dying really really sucked if you weren't a priest. Brad and his ilk were more interested in pursuing a masochistic Vision™ than in making a good game. I mean dear god, a wizard that blew all his mana would be sitting around for 10 minutes waiting for it to come back, just to blow it all again on the next mob.

well, honestly, what man doesn't take a few minutes to be ready again?

Whats wrong with PKing?...More xp and you can get better items and money sometimes...depending on what game you are playing

I LOATHE WoW. Commercial populist crap at it's best. I bet it's hanging out with it's friends McDonald's and the iPod right now.

WoW is the only MMOG I've played, and it absolutely sucks. It has no story, no roleplaying, a worthless community and generic and extremely tedious quests. Everything designed to waste as much time as possible, and there are no proper rewards for anything you do, ever. I don't understand how WoW can be so popular.

KoL. Bestest MMO ever.

Seconded. Even though I slowly stop playing every few months.

Whats wrong with PKing?...More xp and you can get better items and money sometimes...depending on what game you are playing

http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/postmortem.shtml

A short answer:

Originally, there were very few artificial restrictions on how players could interact, and the developers intentionally provided mechanisms for both attacking and stealing from other players. Most frauds and other indirect means for creating an advantage via the exploitation of other players were also not restricted, with the exception of when bugs were involved.

Many players saw a "punch in the nose factor" (as Raph Koster, AKA Designer Dragon, one of the original Ultima Online developers, put it) involved, as players were able to harm other players directly with little penalty, which allowed too much griefing. Others saw it as creating a more immersive and complex atmosphere where unpredictable and challenging situations could occur spontaneously between players, but expressed concern over the barrier to entry for new players and the seeming imbalance which favored anti-social behavior.

Gradual shifts in game mechanics and introductions of new systems took place. The developers initially added a system whereby the server categorizes criminals and murderers from the innocent in the form of differently shaded character and name highlighting (blue for innocent, gray for criminals, and red for murderers) on mouse-over. This, however, was not without its problems -- many criminal acts could be accidentally performed while trying to do something otherwise legal, and the unfortunate player who suddenly became "gray" would most often be killed by NPCs or other players right away, regardless of the reason behind the criminal status. Players who killed others only because of their status and without regard for reason were often called "noto-PKs" since, at first, the notoriety statistic determined this status -- these players, too, were often called griefers. Later, the developers implemented a feature commonly known as "statloss," which decreased skills and stats upon death if the character was a murderer. Statloss was very controversial and was often cited as an example, by player killers and other PvP minded players, that the developers were siding with players who favoured the opposite style of gameplay. Eventually, the ongoing depredations of the 'red' community caused the creation of a separate, mirror world, called Trammel, where only mutually consented PvP and theft could occur (within or between player guilds) that were in a state of war with each other.

Criticized as going too far in the opposite direction, many players cited the introduction as the downfall of the Ultima tradition of interesting and complex behavior, stating that the server-enforced laws were often too simplified to be appropriate in many situations and did more to harm the long-term health of the game world than it did to help it. Regardless, almost all player activity moved to Trammel, and the old world (given the name Felucca) became practically abandoned. Most subsequent MMOs have followed the example of Trammel, and do not allow unconsented PvP or theft (if there is a mechanism for theft at all).

In those subsequent MMOs that have allowed consented or unconsented player combat, usually the items that may be taken from a player's corpse are limited (in some cases nothing may be taken). Ultima Online originally had no such distinction and all items a player had at the time of death stayed with the corpse, and every item was removable by anyone. This gave a huge incentive to griefing because it was much more lucrative to kill and rob other players than a monster. An average troll may have yielded 200 or 300 gold. However, a player would often yield a full suit of armor, magic items, and consumables (e.g. potions, magic components, bandages, etc.) plus whatever gold he or she may have collected from fighting. As a result, the richest players and the most successful murderers were often one and the same. Successful player killers could easily make literally ten times robbing others than what they would fighting monsters. Those new to the game, who had played traditional computer RPGs, would often use the tactic of hoarding that worked in single player games, and would carry a majority of their possessions with them. When killed by another player, their murderer was richly rewarded and they were severely punished. Many new players quit in frustration when this would happen, as literally dozens or hundreds of hours of work could be invalidated in ten seconds with a prepared ambush.

Some still question the methods used to deal with the griefer issue. Raphael Koster has said [2]:

Being safe from evil is, in my mind, an uneven tradeoff for the fact that you don't get to be heroes anymore, in that you can just opt out of fighting evil. It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn't count, when it isn't challenging, that people would rather fight "pretend evil" than the real thing, but I don't personally believe that. I still think people are better than that.



It's incredibly frustrating to get slaughtered with no chance.

Well most games now have either level limits...separate servers for p2p...or special areas to fight other players...

MMO gaming really peaked with UO. EVE is the best thing on the market right now but it gets pretty boring at times.

Whats wrong with PKing?...More xp and you can get better items and money sometimes...depending on what game you are playing

Besides Khadgar's reply, quite a few PKers also tend to share a predatory mindset similar to child molestors; they'll prefer to go after targets with relatively little or no ability to defend themselves that they can abuse with impugnity.

Well most games now have either level limits...separate servers for p2p...or special areas to fight other players...

I think that addresses the weak helpless bit...and comparing PKing to child molestation is a pretty far stretch....nothing wrong with killing some noobs...on WoW. I and a party of mine used to sit on the ships that took you back and forth between lands and just kill everyone on the other team that tried to use them...that would usually last an 1-4 hours...good times good times..

I think that addresses the weak helpless bit...and comparing PKing to child molestation is a pretty far stretch....nothing wrong with killing some noobs...on WoW. I and a party of mine used to sit on the ships that took you back and forth between lands and just kill everyone on the other team that tried to use them...that would usually last an 1-4 hours...good times good times..

The comparison had nothing to do with either criminal status or personal violation (although with some people constantly getting stomped on by higher level players is aggravating and/or traumatic.) Although using child molestors in this comparison might be harsh; Bullies are less extreme and just as appropriate. The point was that some PKers will deliberately seek out and target weaker players in preference which is a similar modus operandi as bullies and child molestors; target someone weaker and abuse with impugnity.

Eh...thats what clans are for...travel together in safety...

I play The Matrix Online, (yes it's still around) and the character that I play is called MetaLogic. He is part of the Cypherite Org, an Organization that basically protects the bluepills from being awaken to the reality of the Matrix, by any means, and I do mean by any means. The Cypherites pulled plugs of those jacked into the simulation (thus killing them) ramming hovercraft's into Zion's gate, we do get our hands dirty a lot! Our two leaders are Cryptos and Veil, Cryptos is more of the calm, philosophical leader while Veil is more of the gung-ho, fighter b*&@# from Hell!

MetaLogic was someone who was blissfully asleep when he was awoken by EPN members (E Pluribus Neo), which is another org. that is the exact opposite of the Cypherites. Meta was forced awaken and once he was sufficiently trained in how to operate within the Matrix, he escaped from those who awoken him. For awhile he served the Machines as a Machinist, but he soon saw that the captain of the hovercraft he was on was a weak leader, who tolerated the EPN. So Meta left to join the Cypherites.

Today he is a loyal Cypherite operative who does anything from stealing information, buying information, lying, killing, and yes even pulling jacks out of those who are jacked into the simulation (thus killing them) and his loyalty to the Org. is well respected and is honored.

This is MetaLogic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/PAY5353/screenshot_43.jpg

This is Cryptos, one of the leader of the Cypherite Organization.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/PAY5353/screenshot_4.jpg

Now Cryptos, he was a former Zionist operative who actually wanted to use virtual nukes inside the Matrix, to bring it all down, killing millions of those who are still asleep inside the simulation. The machines deemed him to be a threat to the simulation as well as to the system. So they kidnapped him, and overwritten his mind with a machine program. Cryptos then became the Cypherite leader, talking about how we must all go back to sleep, and how the world is ours if only we submit to a higher authority. It was only in July that Cryptos machine overwriting was exposed, and the Cryptos we see now is a perfect mesh of man and program. He is still the leader of the Cypherite organization.

I think that addresses the weak helpless bit...and comparing PKing to child molestation is a pretty far stretch....nothing wrong with killing some noobs...on WoW. I and a party of mine used to sit on the ships that took you back and forth between lands and just kill everyone on the other team that tried to use them...that would usually last an 1-4 hours...good times good times..

Wow. Just wow.
I guess bullying never gets boring.

I played:

Ultima Online
Horizons
Asherons Call 2
Everquest 2
EVE
D&D Online

I also had brief flirtations (read: maximum of 1 month subscription/playtime) with Guild Wars, City of Heroes and Second Life. Never bought WoW, since I was fortunate enough to see it at a friend's house and decided that - in my opinion - it was just a sort of dumbed down variant of all the others.

I still have a DDO account and 2 EVE accounts active.

Wow. Just wow.
I guess bullying never gets boring.

If you get upset by something someone does/says on the internet or a video game you shouldn't be using either in the first place...especially if its someone killing you in a video game where all we're getting in return is some experience and you respawn...

and not all of the people were noobs the vast majority were actually people close to the same levels as us or higher...there just happened to be more of us than them...and it finally led to clans coming from all the way from somewhere else on their island and trying to kill us...we killed off like 4 of these attacks before finally just getting bored and logged off when the boats were on our sides island.

Actually...speaking of PVP. Is Shadowbane still around? I remember playing the open beta and it being too glitchy for my tastes, but it had a crazy cool PVP/GvG-siege system.

If you get upset by something someone does/says on the internet or a video game you shouldn't be using either in the first place...especially if its someone killing you in a video game where all we're getting in return is some experience and you respawn...

and not all of the people were noobs the vast majority were actually people close to the same levels as us or higher...there just happened to be more of us than them...and it finally led to clans coming from all the way from somewhere else on their island and trying to kill us...we killed off like 4 of these attacks before finally just getting bored and logged off when the boats were on our sides island.

In my experience if people are close to your level and you keep killing them, they'll come in force and drive you out. Folks like you are the reason why I have to keep my main parked near where my alts are leveling. Sit on rooftops in Darkshire, go ahead. I'll just shoot your ass.

I played WoW for about a year and a half when it first came out (not including my time in the betas), but RL friends leaving and money issues kind of killed that. I actually played Lord of the Rings Online for a couple of months over the summer before deciding that without any RL friends, it just wasn't much fun. I was actually kind of surprised to read that nobody played LoTRO. It was supposed to be the WoW-killer...

BTW, I canceled my LoTRO account in early August and would gladly pick WoW back up if it weren't for grad school. :mad: I really got into WoW's storyline (always kinda been a fan of the WarCraft series), and just the way the whole game was implemented was fantastic.

I do remember playing Everquest in high school on a 56k dial-up... Oh, the horrors...

especially if its someone killing you in a video game where all we're getting in return is some experience and you respawn...


Not when PKs camp at spawn points and safe zone exits. At that point, it's pointless to play unless you like playing as sacrificial cows.

Not when PKs camp at spawn points and safe zone exits. At that point, it's pointless to play unless you like playing as sacrificial cows.

A lot of games you can't do that anymore...due to temporary spawn invincibility. or moving spawn locations etc etc...

and as to the people being near the same level coming to drive you out...they did try that...there were just more of us...and the ships leave automatically after people board them...so when the ships left there'd be a few enemy combatants... and since the ships left they can't get anymore help they die..ship reaches our side...we go heal ourselves up...go back repeat the process.. we also had a bunch of "healers" "mages" whatever you want to call them on our side that and people who could boost our stats/attack multiple enemies/lower enemy stats...so if we died we got resurrected...whereas the enemy their healers were already dead...

And Who doesn't like sacrificial cows?.

And you can keep your main near your alts...I never Pk alone...rather in large parties...or "multiple" combined parties...

A lot of games you can't do that anymore...due to temporary spawn invincibility. or moving spawn locations etc etc...

Some games. Most have static spawn locations and no temp spawn invincibility. Quite a few games had people camping teleport spawn locations so while the screen's loading up, you're being killed.


And Who doesn't like sacrificial cows?.


When you're the cow.


And you can keep your main near your alts...I never Pk alone...rather in large parties...or "multiple" combined parties...

Most PKs I've seen like to hit the newbie zones. New players get turned off fast when the only option available is either hiding in starter towns twiddling thumbs or going outside and dying.

Those people don't have mains to chase off the PKs to begin with.

So long story short, those kinds of PKs are disastrous for server player lists.

Some games. Most have static spawn locations and no temp spawn invincibility. Quite a few games had people camping teleport spawn locations so while the screen's loading up, you're being killed.



When you're the cow.



Most PKs I've seen like to hit the newbie zones. New players get turned off fast when the only option available is either hiding in starter towns twiddling thumbs or going outside and dying.

Those people don't have mains to chase off the PKs to begin with.

So long story short, those kinds of PKs are disastrous for server player lists.

I don't hit newbie zones...they aren't worth the low exp they give...and if they have items they're never any good...much better to team pk a person or group of people that are like 10 levels higher..but if noobs decide to try and get in the way then we kill them just as mercilessly as the others

I've been the cow before...just logged off for a bit and came back later...or switched to my main...and got me and my mates and flipped the tables...

I don't hit newbie zones...they aren't worth the low exp they give...and if they have items they're never any good...much better to team pk a person or group of people that are like 10 levels higher..but if noobs decide to try and get in the way then we kill them just as mercilessly as the others

I've been the cow before...just logged off for a bit and came back later...or switched to my main...and got me and my mates and flipped the tables...

We're talking two different breeds of PKs here. You seem to be the farmer type who goes after people who might have something. The ones I encounter are those that specifically go after newbies who's mains ARE the low levels. They don't seem to be doing it for anything other than the kick of griefing, and that totally ruins it for new players.

Indeed...I prefer helping noobs...at least somewhat...and if I'm feeling particularly charitable I'll defend them...I also enjoy a challenge in my PKing...someone that can actually put up a fight is a lot more entertaining than wiping out noobs...although when I go experience whoring anything and everything thats not on my team we kill...noobs usually run away though at the site of a few parties killing everything around them...

well, honestly, what man doesn't take a few minutes to be ready again?

Well, if you're a WoW Warlock....

Heh, an Affliction/Corruption specced 'lock with Dark Link and an Imp out basically had a constantly recharging mana battery standing next to him at all times. You'd burn down, drain the imp's mana, burn down, start cutting into your hp to keep your mana up, rinse and repeat.

A smart lock can essentially keep going without having to stop, at least in PvE.

Traditionally, my favorite MMORPG of all time would have to be Diablo II. I mean, come on, hours and hours of teleporting to the same boss over and over made for some great times. If we want to extend this into LAN connection games, I loved Arcanum: Badass storyline.

Now don't mock me on this one. I play Guild Wars (aka, World of Poorcraft). Mostly because I have a moral obligation to not fall into the "monthly" fee regime. Honestly, you pay sixty bucks for a game which you CANNOT play offline, then you have to pay forty bucks a month for a reasonable internet to play the behemoth game, and then, just to push the stick further up the darkness, you have to pay fifteen more dollars to simply play the game.

I was going to buy Two Worlds, but was told it was kind of horrible. It seemed like a decent attempt at making the Elder Scroll style game into a MMORPG.

Traditionally, my favorite MMORPG of all time would have to be Diablo II. I mean, come on, hours and hours of teleporting to the same boss over and over made for some great times. If we want to extend this into LAN connection games, I loved Arcanum: Badass storyline.

Now don't mock me on this one. I play Guild Wars (aka, World of Poorcraft). Mostly because I have a moral obligation to not fall into the "monthly" fee regime. Honestly, you pay sixty bucks for a game which you CANNOT play offline, then you have to pay forty bucks a month for a reasonable internet to play the behemoth game, and then, just to push the stick further up the darkness, you have to pay fifteen more dollars to simply play the game.

I was going to buy Two Worlds, but was told it was kind of horrible. It seemed like a decent attempt at making the Elder Scroll style game into a MMORPG.


Diablo II isn't an MMO. It's an MORPG, but seeing as the maximum number of concurrent players is 4 or 8 (don't remember which) it's certainly not a massively multiplayer game by any standards.