NationStates Jolt Archive

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

There are a couple of good points, but mostly it's mired in xenophobia. No thanks.

You know, I think I've seen something a little bit like this party program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program#The_full_text_of_the_25_point_program) before...

Omitting the interdiction of drugs, the use of CCTV, and the ludicrous position taken upon euthanasia and abortion, quite possibly. If I was American of course.

Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small
Extra attention for to so called youth criminals
Sub-zero tolerance?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Also, I didn't vote since I'm a foreigner so I figured I wouldn't be welcome in your insular little paradise.

Without wishing to prompt any flame wars though, I'm intrigued by your goal of getting your "leading educational position in the world back". Can you cite me a source where the U.S. has ever been held to have the world's 'best' education?

There are a couple of good points, but mostly it's mired in xenophobia. No thanks.

^this^

Nope. Way too xenophobic, way too conservative socially, and does not seem to be based upon something that could really happen.

Crickey! Nope, nope and a big fat nope.

Is it your intention to cut off this fictious nation from the rest of the world?

Would you count both alcohol and tabbaco in your drugs policy? How would you fund the reforms to healthcare, education and armed forces. How do you intend to cut done on 'paper work'

Why exactly would a teenager recive a stricter sentance than an older criminal for the same crime?

Might want to rethink your slogan. I assumed "American Values: Own People First!" was going to be another regressive conservative movement centering around how you should legally purchase a female in holy matrimony before you fuck her, and how you should make sure that any black person you kill was legally your property (because you wouldn't want to steal another man's Negro).

Yeah, I thought it referred to slavery or some such as well.

Might want to rethink your slogan. I assumed "American Values: Own People First!" was going to be another regressive conservative movement centering around how you should legally purchase a female in holy matrimony before you fuck her, and how you should make sure that any black person you kill was legally your property (because you wouldn't want to steal another man's Negro).

When I first read that, I thought it was a pro-slavery party :p

Why exactly would a teenager recive a stricter sentance than an older criminal for the same crime?
Probably because most teenagers are legally barred from voting, and therefore could not immediately vote to throw these bums out of office. ;)

There are a couple of good points, but mostly it's mired in xenophobia. No thanks.
Not just xenophobia, really, but a lot of blatant racism and misogyny. I guess my assumption that "values" has become a code word for "panicked honky boys" still holds true...

Don't know if it's really all that xenophobic, though it's isolationist and conservative. Depending on how easy it would be to immigrate to this country, it might be a relatively open country still, just bent on preventing illegal immigration. Of course making a real decision here is learning about the terms for immigration.

I don't see what the abortion and euthanasia issues are doing in this list. They seem out of place, even though I realize they fit the criteria of the OP who was going for "American" issues and positions.

Opposition to abortion seems to stem mostly from a religious perspective, which usually ends up conflicting with the freedom of thought arguments. Opposition to euthanasia seems to conflict with freedom of choice. If my will states that my life should be terminated if clear conditions are met, a doctor should be allowed to execute my will, with all the needed precautions in place. (independent second opinion, official will signed in good health, etc.)

Also, please fix the poll options. I reject your proposal not because it is extreme, but because it's just more of the same boring, oppressive, ineffective stuff that the current conservatives are pushing. Just vote Republican and call it a day.

well I'm half convinced that this manifesto actually does represent American values course that means that I don't support it and lets face it the fact that I'm un-American isn't the only reason

Might want to rethink your slogan. I assumed "American Values: Own People First!" was going to be another regressive conservative movement centering around how you should legally purchase a female in holy matrimony before you fuck her, and how you should make sure that any black person you kill was legally your property (because you wouldn't want to steal another man's Negro).

Yeah, I thought it referred to slavery or some such as well.

When I first read that, I thought it was a pro-slavery party :p

That makes four of us.

Not just xenophobia, really, but a lot of blatant racism and misogyny. I guess my assumption that "values" has become a code word for "panicked honky boys" still holds true...

I had no plan to interfere for a while.

To all: The line of this fictive party aren't necessary my points of view.

To Bottle: I disagree. I see nationalism but not one line of racism. The party isn't excluding one single race, nor does it promote one.
It's promoting Americans but their skin colour doesn't count.

Black, White, Yellow, Red, Blue, Purple with yellow dots. For American Values it doesn't matter. It's about being American and giving some privilege to the owners of the country.


What Wikipedia is saying about racism:
Racism has many definitions, the most common and widely accepted is that members of one "race" are intrinsically superior or inferior to members of other "races." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism)

Annnnd i'm still waiting for the OP to defend their position, or offer any sort of explaination.

Opps there it is!

Blah, too socially conservative; too xenophobic, homophobic undertones (I mean... "sexually decent behaviour"? I'm surprised no one else picked up on this one) and too... ick... you'd use zero tolerance? Why not just propose to adopt draconian Singapore laws?

I had no plan to interfere for a while.

To all: The line of this fictive party aren't necessary my points of view.

To Bottle: I disagree. I see nationalism but not one line of racism. The party isn't excluding one single race, nor does it promote one.
It's promoting Americans but their skin colour doesn't count.

Black, White, Yellow, Red, Blue, Purple with yellow dots. For American Values it doesn't matter. It's about being American and giving some privilege to the owners of the country.


What Wikipedia is saying about racism:
Racism has many definitions, the most common and widely accepted is that members of one "race" are intrinsically superior or inferior to members of other "races." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism)

Nationalism = racsim

To all: The line of this fictive party aren't necessary my points of view.

oh thats good but if your looking to see how Americans would vote for whatever is the most queer bashing anti-reality candidate you might want to try wall-mart instead of an international (well its dot co dot [B]UK[/B really]) forum

To Bottle: I disagree. I see nationalism but not one line of racism.

theres a difference now?

Nationalism = racsim

omg brainwave!

I get the impression that this is trolling.

(I mean... "sexually decent behaviour"? I'm surprised no one else picked up on this one)

I just lumped that in with the misogyny in my mind. "Sexually decent behavior" invariably means "hetero PIV sex that doesn't involve any unseemly touching of the clitoris." Female sexuality and homosexuality are universally prohibited under such codes.

omg brainwave!

Umm now you wouldn't be takin the piss now huh?

To all: The line of this fictive party aren't necessary my points of view.
Perhaps not, but as the OP you are the one that brought this to our attention and asked for comments, which you are receiving.

The poll stands at 11-0 against as I type, which gives a reasonable indication of how the forum is reacting/will react. More than one poster has asked for clarification of some of the party line, and we're still waiting.

I’m sorry, I noticed that I’m upsetting a lot of people.

I’m very sorry for this one.

It was just an experiment….

Well actually, you will be surprised...

And so was I by your vote results and your comments

This party and its party points really exist.

Replace American Values by “Vlaams Belang” and then you know you’re dealing with a Flemish party. It’s even one of the biggest parties in Belgium…

The party points are almost exact copies.

In Belgium this party is in the media considered as extreme right winged.

I was curious how Americans would react to such ‘thing’ and I really am surprised by the outcome.

Sources:
The Official Vlaams Belang site (only in Dutch): http://www.vlaamsbelang.be/
Anti Vlaams Belang site (partly in English): http://www.blokwatch.be/index.php?lang=en
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang

I had no plan to interfere for a while.

To all: The line of this fictive party aren't necessary my points of view.

To Bottle: I disagree. I see nationalism but not one line of racism. The party isn't excluding one single race, nor does it promote one.
It's promoting Americans but their skin colour doesn't count.

Black, White, Yellow, Red, Blue, Purple with yellow dots. For American Values it doesn't matter. It's about being American and giving some privilege to the owners of the country.


What Wikipedia is saying about racism:
Racism has many definitions, the most common and widely accepted is that members of one "race" are intrinsically superior or inferior to members of other "races." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism)
Sorry, lad, but you gave up the game with the whole "English is the language of our nation."

Whose nation? 32.2 million American families speak Spanish at home. 15% of our population is Hispanic, and it's the fastest-growing minority group in the country. Of course, you've addressed that with the panicked border-closings you propose, but that won't change the fact that English is only the language of "our" country if you deliberately exclude a big chunk of the population. Who just so happen to be brown instead of white...funny, that...

Nice to see you didn't even bother to argue with me about the misogyny of your proposal, though. I know it's in fashion to turn back the clock on the Women's Rights Movement, but it's refreshing to see somebody who doesn't even try to hide it.

Umm now you wouldn't be takin the piss now huh?

hope not seeing as how I said the same thing :p

but that won't change the fact that English is only the language of "our" country if you deliberately exclude a big chunk of the population. Who just so happen to be brown instead of white...funny, that...

I was more amused because its my language not America's

Replace American Values by “Vlaams Belang” and then you know you’re dealing with a Flemish party. It’s even one of the biggest parties in Belgium…
I had a feeling it was. I can't say I know the party programs of all these nutcases, but it sounded familiar.

I’m sorry, I noticed that I’m upsetting a lot of people.

I’m very sorry for this one.

It was just an experiment….

Well actually, you will be surprised...

And so was I by your vote results and your comments

This party and its party points really exist.

Replace American Values by “Vlaams Belang” and then you know you’re dealing with a Flemish party. It’s even one of the biggest parties in Belgium…

The party points are almost exact copies.

In Belgium this party is in the media considered as extreme right winged.

I was curious how Americans would react to such ‘thing’ and I really am surprised by the outcome.

Sources:
The Official Vlaams Belang site (only in Dutch): http://www.vlaamsbelang.be/
Anti Vlaams Belang site (partly in English): http://www.blokwatch.be/index.php?lang=en
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang

Ahhhh that explains it, I was hoping that it was summit like that, and not your own views.

I just lumped that in with the misogyny in my mind. "Sexually decent behavior" invariably means "hetero PIV sex that doesn't involve any unseemly touching of the clitoris." Female sexuality and homosexuality are universally prohibited under such codes.

Ah, ok, I overlooked that in your post. Point accepted. :)

hope not seeing as how I said the same thing :p

Ohh cool then, I thought you where being sarcarstic!

I was curious how Americans would react to such ‘thing’ and I really am surprised by the outcome.Meh. You haven't had any Republicans react to it, that's all. :)

Where was I reading about this?

They say Belgium is on its last legs and many people want it split into 2 countries - one for the Walloons, one for the Flemish.

The only thing holding it together is Brussels, which provides a nice contrary due to it being the center of European and a symbol of unity when the very country it's in wants to split.

I read it just the other day and now I forget where.

EDIT: This isn't it but it does outline the issues (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2950330.ece)

Ahhhh that explains it, I was hoping that it was summit like that, and not your own views.

Please. No :)

I’m sorry, I noticed that I’m upsetting a lot of people.

I’m very sorry for this one.

??

Who got upset in this thread?

No need to apologize for anything.


It was just an experiment….

Well actually, you will be surprised...

Not really. Like I said, the platform you posted is pretty much verbatim what the Republicans already run on. It's not remotely surprising to know that such a party really does exist. It's also not surprising that in any other nation these views are regarded as extremist...only in America do we label centrist conservatives as RADICAL LEFT WING SOCIALISTS.


And so was I by your vote results and your comments

This party and its party points really exist.

Replace American Values by “Vlaams Belang” and then you know you’re dealing with a Flemish party. It’s even one of the biggest parties in Belgium…

The party points are almost exact copies.

In Belgium this party is in the media considered as extreme right winged.

I was curious how Americans would react to such ‘thing’ and I really am surprised by the outcome.

Again, no real surprise. If you post issues point by point, the majority of Americans don't support "conservative" positions at all. Yet piles of people vote Republican anyhow. It's all about the spin, really.

I had a feeling it was. I can't say I know the party programs of all these nutcases, but it sounded familiar.

Yes, the other 'national' parties in other European countries are rather similar.

It like they all went to the same school. :)

??

Who got upset in this thread?

No need to apologize for anything.


Not really. Like I said, the platform you posted is pretty much verbatim what the Republicans already run on. It's not remotely surprising to know that such a party really does exist. It's also not surprising that in any other nation these views are regarded as extremist...only in America do we label centrist conservatives as RADICAL LEFT WING SOCIALISTS.


Again, no real surprise. If you post issues point by point, the majority of Americans don't support "conservative" positions at all. Yet piles of people vote Republican anyhow. It's all about the spin, really.

When I left my teenage era and started to understand how the world is run, I noticed the similarity between the Republicans and the extreme right parties in Europe as well.

It are all hypocrites, you know. In Belgium, the other political parties do not talk with the “Vlaams Belang”.

They created a 'cordon sanitaire' around it and they all agreed that no one would form a coalition with this extreme right party.

And I understand why. I accept that.

But on the other hand...those same politicians are glowing of pride when they are on the same picture with Bush. :)

Hypocrites! :)

Barringtonia;13063023]Where was I reading about this?

They say Belgium is on its last legs and many people want it split into 2 countries - one for the Walloons, one for the Flemish.

Well, it's blah blah of the international press. They do not understand the concept of Belgium and they will never do.

I don't think they will split it up because there's no demand from the people. Just a few politicians have some wet dreams about this one.

I saw yesterday a newspaper article written in 1906 about splitting up Belgium... :)


The only thing holding it together is Brussels, which provides a nice contrary due to it being the center of European and a symbol of unity when the very country it's in wants to split.

Hehe, no there is more. We share the same values and culture. We adore the same sportsmen and women. We have the same king. We speak another language, so? In Switzerland there are 4 official languages, in South Africa about 40.

So I think we can handle 3 languages (yes a small portion is talking German as well)

Again. The average Joe in Wallonia and Flanders are liking each other.

But some politicians...

So I think we can handle 3 languages (yes a small portion is talking German as well)

Again. The average Joe in Wallonia and Flanders are liking each other.

But some politicians...
Canada can barely handle two without the Quebeckers whining about wanting special treatment. What makes Belgium so damn special? :p

EDIT: This isn't it but it does outline the issues (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2950330.ece)

That article in the Independent is just crap.


Most of Flemish politics leans to the right (and parts of it very far to the right). Most of Walloon politics leans to the Left (and some of it very far to the Left)


Actually, in both sides they lean to the centre.
The Flemish very far right side is excluded from forming a coalition.

The entire Walloon left are not invited on the negotion table (they lost the elections). The Walloon far Left almost doesn't exist at all.


Are there any hidden agendas?

The political scandal surrounding the Dutroux paedophile murders in Wallonia has reinforced Flemish prejudices against a supposedly corrupt and lazy south of the country. The continued success of the overtly xenophobic and anti-immigrant Vlaams Belang party in Flanders has reinforced Walloon prejudices against a supposedly authoritarian and fascist-leaning north. Support for some Flemings for Nazism during the German occupation was another factor in the collapse of "community" relations after the war.


Pfff, the paedophile Dutroux doesn’t play a role at all. First of all, he’s out the nations memory. The people, the media rarely talk about him again.

Every region, country has paedophiles. Flemmish people understand very well that the paedeophile 'problem' is not a Walloon-only problem.

And he did not separated the people, but actually joined them.
Pending the White Marshes, Walloons and Flemings walked side by side against THEIR shared government.

But again, that happened rather a long time agoo...pffft.

The Vlaams Belang actually dropped a little in the last elections…

The north isn’t fascist at all. I live in the north, if it was a fascist area, I would be gone.

Sure, some Flemings collaborated with the Germans in WWII. So did Walloons, French, Dutch and even English and American people….

Believe me, after 60 years, we forgot that war.


The Wallonian economy is finally beginning to recover from the shocks of the 1970s and 1980s. The two halves of the country may yet learn that they need one another.


No, it isn’t. Some Walloon politicians dream such things, but it isn’t reality.

Unemployment isn’t lowering at all in Wallonia. And there is no major change in the amount of investments in that area.

Almost everything in that independent article is just crap.

Yes, I like the ideas of this party: 0 / 0%
No, this is too extreme, not my cup of tea: 15 / 100.00%


Wow, a consensus. Bravo to you, sir.

Wow, a consensus. Bravo to you, sir.

Thats a point, whats happend to you NSG?(you used to be cool) I remember when nobody could agree on anything *sigh*

To be fair, the party.. well, this is a little generous, but let's call it a proposal, voiced here contains several things that would make left wingers angry, things that would make right wingers angry, and the rest of us just don't like Edwinasia and his broken English tirades.

How is your Dutch, French or German?

Ik wil wel verder doen in het Nederlands hoor, da’s mijn moedertaal. In die taal kan ik misschien wel de nodige volbloed zinnen op het scherm plaatsen.

Ou vous voulez continuer en français ?

Thats a point, whats happened to you NSG?(you used to be cool) I remember when nobody could agree on anything *sigh*

To be fair, the party.. well, this is a little generous, but let's call it a proposal, voiced here contains several things that would make left wingers angry, things that would make right wingers angry, and the rest of us just don't like Edwinasia and his broken English tirades.

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!
:( I am so disappointed, I thought when it said "own people" I was going to get slaves.

*doesn't vote*

To be fair, the party.. well, this is a little generous, but let's call it a proposal, voiced here contains several things that would make left wingers angry, things that would make right wingers angry, and the rest of us just don't like Edwinasia and his broken English tirades.

I don't know Edwinasia So I realy couldn't say if I like or dislike him/her. which brings me to another point, I also don't know Edwinasia's gender(nor sexual orriatation) so I don't know wether to flirt or not!

Straight male. In fact, he reminds me a bit of the Turkish men I see trolling for 15 year olds on MSN chat.

Ahhh then no flirting from me!:eek:

Sounds like a pretty standard conservative agenda to me, just with some isolationist autarchism thrown in.

I don't know Edwinasia So I realy couldn't say if I like or dislike him/her. which brings me to another point, I also don't know Edwinasia's gender(nor sexual orriatation) so I don't know wether to flirt or not!

Straight male. In fact, he reminds me a bit of the Turkish men I see trolling for 15 year olds on MSN chat.

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

While I am aware of this list's status as an experiment, and that no one here necessarily believes this list, I must still update it to what I believe is more...ahem, "accurate" as far as American values go.

Let's see what we got.

--A united America for all Americans...with money. Rich Americans will always have more rights than everyone else.
--Real freedom of speech...as long as it's not "offensive" and doesn't go against what the government teaches.
--Abortion is unacceptable, and so is euthanasia. Not even to save the mother's life, aid a rape victim, or to end one's suffering. But putting people to death who nevcer murdered anyone is perfectly acceptable and should be encouraged. Especially if they're black.
--We will close our border. America is for Americans.
--We will hunt down illegal immigrants and shoot them.
--Foreigners in America will be forced to learn English and speak only English at all times. They will be forced to swear a loyalty oath to America and never discuss the "motherland." Failure to comply will result in being shoved into a ghetto in NYC or LA.
--Zero tolerance for criminals, unless they're rich and famous enough to get away with it. Or if they're a white suburbanite who thinks it's unjust that he got pulled over for doing 60 in a 35 zone because he was late to work, but insists that the jerk who cut him off doing only 45 should be arrested and thrown in jail for life.
--Extra attention for the so-called youth criminals. Any subversive activities, including mouthing off, pretending that one's fingers are pistols, touching another person in any way, even to "hug" one's own mother, or exerting any form of physical activity will result in a lengthy suspension from school and a possible stint in juvie. Also, the video game industry will be further restricted and possible sued.
--Passive "protection" of our society by video cameras, wiretaps, in-home monitoring, and two-way closed circuit TV. In current America, you watch Big Brother. In true American Values America, Big Brother watches you!
--Foreign criminals will be returned to sender immediately after a lengthy stay in Gitmo. The government would collect money taking bets on whether a prisoner will be charged or released first, but the Church authorities frown on gambling.
--All hard- and soft- drugs are forbidden. This includes decongestants, cough drops, and Jolly Rancher candy, since we're just so sure that people can make those things into drugs, too. Also, we're outlawing oxygen, since it's a key ingredient in marijuana smoke. Offenders will be sent to prison, thus allowing us to sentence a serial rapist to twenty hours of community service instead of jail.
--Extra support for American Companies. Since they make the economy strong, we're going to let them do pretty much whatever the hell they want, and since it's bad for the economy, we won't make them pay taxes. For that matter, we're cutting taxes for the rich to 0%. They make up this great land's economy.
--We will weed out the bureaucracy and eliminate such unneeded procedures as "search warrants," "fair trials," and "formal charges." After all, cops usually get it right, don't they?
--Health care for all Americans...who can afford it. We're abolishing Medicare and putting it toward saving the life of a Death Row inmate who had a heart attack two hours before his scheduled execution. After all, America is a culture of life.
--We will put a massive PR campaign toward anti-smoking and anti-alcohol programs, but meanwhile, we'll send operatives to make sure that the message doesn't stick to America's youth. The more kids addicted to tobacco and loving the bottle, the better.
--We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. Poor kids don't need more schooling - they need jobs. Any school that doesn't meet standards will be closed, and all children inside will be sent to work in factories.
--English is the language of our nation. Speaking any foreign language or even knowing another language will be cause for re-education; repeat offenses will be a capital offense.
--We will create our own 'Kyoto' standard for pollution, but it will serve as more of a 'guideline' than a 'requirement.' Corporations exist to make money, and rules about 'protecting the environment' get in the way of their bottom line.
--The military will be rebuilt to be far more powerful, and by that, we mean that every young man will be required to serve. After all, we need more troops in Iraq to combat all those insurgents, and the trillions we've spent on the war just aren't enough for real weapons, body armor, proper defenses, or enough common sense to know that invading Iraq wasn't a good idea. They're also not enough for real veterans' benefits, either, so we hope you like living under a bridge when you get back. It's an improvement over Iraq, right?

Needless to say, I don't really agree with any of this, but it's easy to be frustrated with how things are done in the U.S. now.

Needless to say, I don't really agree with any of this, but it's easy to be frustrated with how things are done in the U.S. now.


The fictive American Values party is a copy of the average European extreme right party.

I used most of the values of a Belgian party called Vlaams Belang, including their slogan (well ok, an older one): Own people first!

Ahhh then no flirting from me!:eek:

Sorry :)

I'm not Turkish, but Belgian. Yupz, I'm a straight male.

Sorry :)

I'm not Turkish, but Belgian. Yupz, I'm a straight male.

I know at least one other Belgian straight male by the name of Giles! He's umm Beligian, and err straight!

Nationalism = racsim
Wow. It does not at all. What a lie!
"Nationalism is a term that refers to a doctrine[1] or political movement[2] that holds that a nation—usually defined in terms of ethnicity or culture—has the right to constitute an independent or autonomous political community based on a shared history and common destiny"

"Nationalism is a form of universalism when it makes universal claims about how the world should be organised, but it is particularistic with regard to individual nations. The combination of both is characteristic for the ideology, for instance in these assertions:

"in a nation-state, the language of the nation should be the official language, and all citizens should speak it, and not a foreign language."
"the official language of Denmark should be Danish, and all Danish citizens should speak it."
Replace American Values by “Vlaams Belang” and then you know you’re dealing with a Flemish party. It’s even one of the biggest parties in Belgium…

The party points are almost exact copies.

In Belgium this party is in the media considered as extreme right winged.

I was curious how Americans would react to such ‘thing’ and I really am surprised by the outcome.

Sources:
The Official Vlaams Belang site (only in Dutch): http://www.vlaamsbelang.be/
Anti Vlaams Belang site (partly in English): http://www.blokwatch.be/index.php?lang=en
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang
I like Vlaams Belang. They are an excellent political party and are already a big political party, but are growing even more in popularity.

Wow. It does not at all. What a lie!
"Nationalism is a term that refers to a doctrine[1] or political movement[2] that holds that a nation—usually defined in terms of ethnicity or culture—has the right to constitute an independent or autonomous political community based on a shared history and common destiny"

I was going to reply to this, and then I saw this:


I like Vlaams Belang. They are an excellent political party and are already a big political party, but are growing even more in popularity.

Soooo I'll not even bother.

hell no.

though the national healthcare idea was at least a stab in the right direction, as was the kyoto idea and the military thing.

How is your Dutch, French or German?

Ik wil wel verder doen in het Nederlands hoor, da’s mijn moedertaal. In die taal kan ik misschien wel de nodige volbloed zinnen op het scherm plaatsen.

Ou vous voulez continuer en français ?
Ich hab dein Franzoesich gar nicht verstanden...aber manchmal kann ich Nederlands verstehen. Est ist doch eine geile sprache. Ich lieb wie du sagst "moedertaal".

Natuurlijk is Nederlands indeerdad lekker.:D

Attacking the poster and not the post? How mature....:rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm right. While Racism has been and can be intertwined with Nationalism, Nationalism on it's own is not dependenet on racism...and by definition, it does not include racism...although it CAN. (like any other idealogy in the world)

So, enjoy being wrong. :)

No not at all, just can't be bothered to even try. Whats the point when you seem to have ideals directly opposed to mine? Will anything I have to say change your mind?

I was going to reply to this, and then I saw this:



Soooo I'll not even bother.
Attacking the poster and not the post? How mature....:rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm right. While Racism has been and can be intertwined with Nationalism, Nationalism on it's own is not dependenet on racism...and by definition, it does not include racism...although it CAN. (like any other idealogy in the world)

So, enjoy being wrong. :)

The fictive American Values party is a copy of the average European extreme right party.

I used most of the values of a Belgian party called Vlaams Belang, including their slogan (well ok, an older one): Own people first!

I figured as much...though the first thing I thought of was how we would really apply most of those phrases.

I used most of the values of a Belgian party called Vlaams Belang, including their slogan (well ok, an older one): Own people first!

"Our people first!" would probably be a better translation.

I like these ideas:


• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


The other ideas are a bit too extreme for my tastes, so I had to say no. The whole "real freedom of speech" thing can be dangerous. I think free flow of ideas is a good thing, but there needs to be some responsibility with it. Next, I happen to find the vast majority of immigrants to be a benefit to our own economy as well as the economy of their home country. I tend to be more of an "open borders" guy than not, but I also think respect for the law is important and that the border patrol should still do its job while the government tries to find a way out of its immigration mess. Also, the whole thing with cameras is very sketch. I think that's a big invasion of privacy issue. I amended the Kyoto thing, because I believe that the Kyoto treaty has some very good points, but I think that society could benefit from the idea of rewards for green solutions instead of being threatened with mandates about it.

But, keep working on it. You may be on to something with some of these points.

Now I will prepare for the ultra-liberal barrage of denials.

*hides in bunker with helmet and M-16, ready to defend self*

No not at all, just can't be bothered to even try. Whats the point when you seem to have ideals directly opposed to mine? Will anything I have to say change your mind?
Show me where it says, in the definition of Nationalism...that Nationalism = Racism, like you said.

Well, England is loaded with cameras...

Here in Belgium they are starting this up too. Cities like Antwerp, Mechelen are filmed continuously.



I like these ideas:



The other ideas are a bit too extreme for my tastes, so I had to say no. The whole "real freedom of speech" thing can be dangerous. I think free flow of ideas is a good thing, but there needs to be some responsibility with it. Next, I happen to find the vast majority of immigrants to be a benefit to our own economy as well as the economy of their home country. I tend to be more of an "open borders" guy than not, but I also think respect for the law is important and that the border patrol should still do its job while the government tries to find a way out of its immigration mess. Also, the whole thing with cameras is very sketch. I think that's a big invasion of privacy issue. I amended the Kyoto thing, because I believe that the Kyoto treaty has some very good points, but I think that society could benefit from the idea of rewards for green solutions instead of being threatened with mandates about it.

But, keep working on it. You may be on to something with some of these points.

Now I will prepare for the ultra-liberal barrage of denials.

*hides in bunker with helmet and M-16, ready to defend self*

Show me where it says, in the definition of Nationalism...that Nationalism = Racism, like you said.

Thats not even the point, but okay lets do this.......


I said:

'Nationalism = Racism'

You said:

'Anyway, I'm right. While Racism has been and can be intertwined with Nationalism, Nationalism on it's own is not dependenet on racism...and by definition, it does not include racism...although it CAN. (like any other idealogy in the world)'

So then you agree that racism can, and has been interwined with nationalism. If you exhibit pride in your nation, to the extent that you make laws treating those not of your nation in a worse manor, then that is nationalism and racism. The point being that in the OP's OP, such a law was suggested, and so in the context of the OP, nationalism = racism.

Thats not even the point, but okay lets do this.......


I said:

'Nationalism = Racism'

You said:

'Anyway, I'm right. While Racism has been and can be intertwined with Nationalism, Nationalism on it's own is not dependenet on racism...and by definition, it does not include racism...although it CAN. (like any other idealogy in the world)'

So then you agree that racism can, and has been interwined with nationalism. If you exhibit pride in your nation, to the extent that you make laws treating those not of your nation in a worse manor, then that is nationalism and racism. The point being that in the OP's OP, such a law was suggested, and so in the context of the OP, nationalism = racism.

Nationalism does not equate to racism; race and nation are very different notions. Even Hitler, as much of a fruitloop as he was, had a vague appreciation of this.

Blah blah.

But in my postings, not one line was written about racism.

Suddenly, several people accused me of being a racist... *sigh*

...while it were clear nationalistic goals.

Nationalism does not equate to racism; race and nation are very different notions. Even Hitler, as much of a fruitloop as he was, had a vague appreciation of this.

Context people. Do we no longer look at it, or take it into consideration when we communicate with each other?

Blah blah.

But in my postings, not one line was written about racism.

Suddenly, several people accused me of being a racist... *sigh*

...while it were clear nationalistic goals.

Nationalistic ideas often border on racism because of the underlying xenophobic tones that accompany it.

Aren't you Belgian, Edwinasia? What the fuck do you know about American Values?

Well, you see, all conservatives share a common cranial unit that collectively feeds them the same mind-numbing jingoistic drivel that they fill the blanks in on. ;)

Aren't you Belgian, Edwinasia? What the fuck do you know about American Values?

Aren't you Belgian, Edwinasia? What the fuck do you know about American Values?

More than you know about Belgian Values, redneck.

Don't you have to milk some cow or something, hillbilly?

More than you know about Belgian Values, redneck.

Don't you have to milk some cow or something, hillbilly?

This would be an insult, if I was white. Maybe. Which shows how little you actually do know about America.

Aren't you Belgian, Edwinasia? What the fuck do you know about American Values?

I say old chap, now I have always been quitely impressed by the intelegents you show here, but that shows a lack of quite a lot of things. I aint Indian, yet I know an awful of of it's culture, it's tensions, it history and it's religoins.

Isn't it possible to know without being a residant?

I guess you probably just have not read where Edwinasia, explains his reasons for posting huh?

This would be an insult, if I was white. Maybe. Which shows how little you actually do know about America.


Is it? Poor boy...

YOUR WORDS:

Aren't you Belgian, Edwinasia? What the fuck do you know about American Values?

I recognized that one as an insult earlier. And by the specific words you have chosen, I could imagine you are some trailer trash guy.

How is your Dutch, French or German?

Ik wil wel verder doen in het Nederlands hoor, da’s mijn moedertaal. In die taal kan ik misschien wel de nodige volbloed zinnen op het scherm plaatsen.

Ou vous voulez continuer en français ?


Plaats ze dan eens, ik wil weten hoe je dit wil uitleggen.
Ik ben het alleen eens met 2 punten ofzo.
En het VlaamsBelang zal toch nooit regeren. Wat maakt het dan uit. Wel interessant experiment.

Plaats ze dan eens, ik wil weten hoe je dit wil uitleggen.
Ik ben het alleen eens met 2 punten ofzo.
En het VlaamsBelang zal toch nooit regeren. Wat maakt het dan uit. Wel interessant experiment.

Ach, ik heb geen schrik van het VB! Die zijn wel rechts, misschien wel extreem, maar geen Nazis hoor. :p

Ik denk dat ze het zelfs leuk zouden vinden.

Gewoon, ik was eens nieuwsgierig hoe Amerikanen op zo'n standpunten zouden reageren.

Ik heb écht zowat de standpunten integraal overgenomen van het Vlaams Belang.
Hier en daar heb ik iets moet 'veramerikaniseren' anders zouden ze de context missen.

Ik dacht dat ze eerder 'gewoontjes' er op zouden reageren.
Niet dus.

Omdat uiteindelijk het me op viel dat de Republikeinen eigenlijk quasi dezelfde standpunten hebben als het VB én soms zelfs verder gaan.

Nu ja, ik trek er nog geen conclusies uit. Enerzijds hebben niet écht overdreven veel mensen deze puntjes gezien en toevallig waren het misschien allemaal linkse jongens die de tread passeerden :)

More than you know about Belgian Values, redneck.

Don't you have to milk some cow or something, hillbilly?

I don't think so...

http://weaselhut.net/gw212.jpg

We'll see what my all-mighty staff has to say about you!

Is it? Poor boy...

YOUR WORDS:

Aren't you Belgian, Edwinasia? What the fuck do you know about American Values?

I recognized that one as an insult earlier. And by the specific words you have chosen, I could imagine you are some trailer trash guy.

I'd say that Deus Malum knows more about American values than you do, Edwinasia. He also knows something about not using name-calling to make a point. Sure he is expressing himself with an explicative-deleted but that is not the same as infantile name calling. Sure it's low-braw and crass at best but it's a whole league above your lame attempts at stereotyping; looks like a touch of racism is in those words of your doesn't it?

Surely you've got better defences that that? :rolleyes:

Show me where it says, in the definition of Nationalism...that Nationalism = Racism, like you said.

Nationalism is only racist if it's American nationalism - even if teh American people are from every race. If it's Hugo Chavez's nationalism it's a euphamism for social justice.

Is it?

Using 'Fuck'...

Then suggesting that I'm stupid or at least unknown....

And that while he doesn't have a clue about what the tread is going on...

Listen, I do not pretend to know *all* about American values, culture and history.

But I know enough.

Can he say the same about Belgian issues? No probably he can't.

Btw, the tread isn't dealing what I think about American values anyway.

Read all the postings and you'll know the purpose.

It was a nice and clean experiment. And the outcome was rather a surprise.

At least for me.

And no I'm not a racist.




I don't think so...

http://weaselhut.net/gw212.jpg

We'll see what my all-mighty staff has to say about you!



I'd say that Deus Malum knows more about American values than you do, Edwinasia. He also knows something about not using name-calling to make a point. Sure he is expressing himself with an explicative-deleted but that is not the same as infantile name calling. Sure it's low-braw and crass at best but it's a whole league above your lame attempts at stereotyping; looks like a touch of racism is in those words of your doesn't it?

Surely you've got better defences that that? :rolleyes:

Ach, ik heb geen schrik van het VB! Die zijn wel rechts, misschien wel extreem, maar geen Nazis hoor. :p

Ik denk dat ze het zelfs leuk zouden vinden.

Gewoon, ik was eens nieuwsgierig hoe Amerikanen op zo'n standpunten zouden reageren.

Ik heb écht zowat de standpunten integraal overgenomen van het Vlaams Belang.
Hier en daar heb ik iets moet 'veramerikaniseren' anders zouden ze de context missen.

Ik dacht dat ze eerder 'gewoontjes' er op zouden reageren.
Niet dus.

Omdat uiteindelijk het me op viel dat de Republikeinen eigenlijk quasi dezelfde standpunten hebben als het VB én soms zelfs verder gaan.

Nu ja, ik trek er nog geen conclusies uit. Enerzijds hebben niet écht overdreven veel mensen deze puntjes gezien en toevallig waren het misschien allemaal linkse jongens die de tread passeerden :)

Nou je het zegt. Ben je Belgisch of Nederlands?
Tja, ik ben zelf half amerikaans, maar ik kan niet zeggen dat ik al deze standpunten deel. Daarom ben ik ook geen republikein.
Volgens mij heb je miss(niet om te bekritiseren ofzo) wel ff niet nagedacht dat de meeste mensen hier vaak geschokt reageren op dit soort dingen. Ik dacht eerst dat je dit serieus meende...maarja, k ben nuchter in dt soort dingen. wat jij gelooft, moe jij weten:p

Nationalism is only racist if it's American nationalism - even if teh American people are from every race. If it's Hugo Chavez's nationalism it's a euphamism for social justice.


I thought that racism is always involved with race or at least culture.

And again, even in my initial posting, I do not suggest that Americans are better or superior.

In my fictive party I wished for a better support for Americans and American companies at the cost of foreigners and foreign companies.

But according my view, that has nothing to do with racism.

If that was the case, then almost every country, and country as institute, could be accused of doing racist deeds. Because most countries have all kind of protection plans. Protection to their local markets, the job floor, the fruit market or whatever...

Nou je het zegt:P Ben je Belgisch of Nederlands?
Tja, ik ben zelf half amerikaans, maar ik kan niet zeggen dat ik al deze standpunten deel. Daarom ben ik ook geen republikein:p
Volgens mij heb je miss(niet om te bekritiseren ofzo) wel ff niet nagedacht dat de meeste mensen hier vaak geschokt reageren op dit soort dingen. Ik dacht eerst dat je dit serieus meende...maarja, k ben nuchter in dt soort dingen. wat jij gelooft, moe jij weten:p


Ik ben Belg.

Neen, ik sta zelf niet achter die standpunten. Ach misschien zit er wel eentje tussen die ik wél goed vind. Volledige 'freedom of speech', zou ik niet zo erg vinden bv.

Politiek sta ik best centraal. Op sommige vlakken ben ik liberaal, op andere misschien wel iets links. Als je de optel som maakt dan sta ik mooi in het midden.

Ja, ik had het ook door dat ze 'en choque' waren. Daarmee dat ik het experiment eigenlijk direct stop heb gezet door verantwoording te geven.

Ik had echt niet de bedoeling om iemand te kwetsen ofzo.

Mja, kijk mijn Engels is zeker niet perfect, en zeker bij zo'n onderwerpen, je mag dat niet onderschatten als het je moedertaal niet is...

Het is soms lastig om woorden te verzachten en dergelijke. Woorden komen zowiezo al harder over dan gesproken taal: geen mimiek, geen toon, geen gebaren om het te ondersteunen of juist te verzachten...

Is it?

I don't know, you tell me.

Using 'Fuck'...

Oh no! He used an explicative-deleted! :rolleyes: Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. It's not one of the worse things he could have said.

Then suggesting that I'm stupid or at least unknown....

Suggesting someone is stupid is a matter of interpretation if they haven't directly stated it. An as for the unknown, well, you do have few posts.

And that while he doesn't have a clue about what the tread is going on...

I'll let DM field this one.

Listen, I do not pretend to know *all* about American values, culture and history.

But I know enough.

So you pretend to know some? :p

And what exactly is "enough"? Just what you see in the media?

(Damnit, why am I defending America? Friggin' conservative hellhole it be! ;) )

Can he say the same about Belgian issues? No probably he can't.

He can claim as you have that he knows enough.

Btw, the tread isn't dealing what I think about American values anyway.

But the fictitious party you proposed based on a pre-existing Belgian party does embrace some ideas that have been accepted by a segment of the American population as 'American' values, so without realising it, your thread has become somewhat about it even if this wasn't your motive or intent.

Read all the postings and you'll know the purpose.

I have already. In fact, I was participating early on.

It was a nice and clean experiment. And the outcome was rather a surprise.

Clean? I think NSG tracked muddy foot prints into this thread.

At least for me.

If you insist.

And no I'm not a racist.

And you can claim that until you're blue in the face but stereotyping is a form of racism. It's not as direct as xenophobia.

neej idd. op het internet komen dingen vaak harder aan dan bedoelt.

Mwa, ksta een beetje midden, met wat rechtse standpunten.
Tis wel jammer dat zij nu niet begrijpen dat het een experiment was.
Niet Lullig bedoelt, maar k zou ff uitkijken de volgende paar dagen met wat voor topics je post. anders word je er dadelijk af gegooid. en das natuurlijk niet leuk:P

Again, it not about American values at all.

It's about a fictive party called 'American Values'.

So there's no need for me to know something about American values at all. By accident I know some American values, but that's not the point here.

I borrowed the main topics of a (extreme) right winged Belgian party.

I was curious if American people would accept it and how they would react to it.

In my prediction I thought 'they would consider it as an average party, cause the Republicans have similar topics'

But the 30 or 40 people that saw the topics were rather offended.
They accused me of using xenophobia lines and stuff...

That's why I quit the experiment by telling what my purpose was.
I don't like it that people get really upset by some words and those poor people really were upset.

Look, I'm not in the mood for games about who knows more about what.

Yes, I get over it when some one is using fuck words.
Yes, I will not sleep less cause some suggests I'm dumb.

No, again, I’m not a racist.






I don't know, you tell me.



Oh no! He used an explicative-deleted! :rolleyes: Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. It's not one of the worse things he could have said.



Suggesting someone is stupid is a matter of interpretation if they haven't directly stated it. An as for the unknown, well, you do have few posts.



I'll let DM field this one.



So you pretend to know some? :p

And what exactly is "enough"? Just what you see in the media?

(Damnit, why am I defending America? Friggin' conservative hellhole it be! ;) )



He can claim as you have that he knows enough.



But the fictitious party you proposed based on a pre-existing Belgian party does embrace some ideas that have been accepted by a segment of the American population as 'American' values, so without realising it, your thread has become somewhat about it even if this wasn't your motive or intent.



I have already. In fact, I was participating early on.



Clean? I think NSG tracked muddy foot prints into this thread.



If you insist.



And you can claim that until you're blue in the face but stereotyping is a form of racism. It's not as direct as xenophobia.

neej idd. op het internet komen dingen vaak harder aan dan bedoelt.

Mwa, ksta een beetje midden, met wat rechtse standpunten.
Tis wel jammer dat zij nu niet begrijpen dat het een experiment was.
Niet Lullig bedoelt, maar k zou ff uitkijken de volgende paar dagen met wat voor topics je post. anders word je er dadelijk af gegooid. en das natuurlijk niet leuk:P

Ik ben informaticus, ik geraak er ALTIJD op :)

Bwa, het had leuk geweest dat ze op een gezonde manier zouden er over gepraat hebben.

Ik kon dan eens peilen wat onbevooroordeelde mensen denken van zo'n partij.


Maar toen ze me begonnen uit te schelden voor racist en zo toen wist ik wel hoe laat het was.

Het gekke is er staat echt niks racistisch in, mja...

Wat ik al wel door heb, dat Amerikanen écht anders tegen de dingen kijken als wij in Europa. Daarom niet slechter of beter. Maar écht wel anders. Er zitten meer punten van verschil tussen dan ik durfde vermoeden.


Ze hebben het inderdaad wat lastig met het Belgisch surrealistisch absurdisme. Ze kennen dat inderdaad niet. Een Kamagurka bv. dat werkt niet in USA. :)

neej idd. op het internet komen dingen vaak harder aan dan bedoelt.

Mwa, ksta een beetje midden, met wat rechtse standpunten.
Tis wel jammer dat zij nu niet begrijpen dat het een experiment was.
Niet Lullig bedoelt, maar k zou ff uitkijken de volgende paar dagen met wat voor topics je post. anders word je er dadelijk af gegooid. en das natuurlijk niet leuk:P
Perhaps if Edwinasia edited the OP so that it was clear to people coming into the thread for the first time that this was 'an experiment' and that these were not his views there would be a whole lot less confusion in here.

Just a thought :)

I am having fun reading the Dutch though, don't get much of a chance to, it's interesting.
Likewise, and it's quite frightening how difficult I have been finding it... I guess I'm more than a little out of practice :P

it would ruin the experiment maybe. I am having fun reading the Dutch though, don't get much of a chance to, it's interesting.

Yes, in my opinion it would indeed ruin the experiment.

Hehe, you use a translator for the Dutch parts ? :)

Perhaps if Edwinasia edited the OP so that it was clear to people coming into the thread for the first time that this was 'an experiment' and that these were not his views there would be a whole lot less confusion in here.

Just a thought :)

it would ruin the experiment maybe. I am having fun reading the Dutch though, don't get much of a chance to, it's interesting.

Hehe, you use a translator for the Dutch parts ? :)
I have good friends living in Eindhoven who I visit a few times a year and my wife has Dutch relatives who we spend quite a lot of time with, so I have picked up a little of the language over the last 10 years or so.

I confess that I had to call my wife to help with the posts in here, since my own knowledge seems to fall flat when I'm trying to translate written Dutch. She's much better at it than I am.

:)

Likewise, and it's quite frightening how difficult I have been finding it... I guess I'm more than a little out of practice :P

I don't know that I have ever been in practice. I am basically a monoglot and not a good one of those, hence the poor grammar. I know enough of some languages to do basic communication (Spanish, French, German) but others I can scarcely read and figure out by context clues (Dutch, Portuguese).

just my brain....it's slow and unreliable though. :(

But working :)

Yes, in my opinion it would indeed ruin the experiment.

Hehe, you use a translator for the Dutch parts ? :)

just my brain....it's slow and unreliable though. :(

I have good friends living in Eindhoven who I visit a few times a year and my wife has Dutch relatives who we spend quite a lot of time with, so I have picked up a little of the language over the last 10 years or so.

I confess that I had to call my wife to help with the posts in here, since my own knowledge seems to fall flat when I'm trying to translate written Dutch. She's much better at it than I am.

:)

Eindhoven, Philips stad. PSV de voetbal ploeg van Eindhoven, doet het zéér goed. Spelen een paar héél goede Belgen bij. :)

Eindehoven, Philips city. PSV, the soccer team of Eindhoven, is doing very well. A few Belgians are inside the team. :)

I added a disclaimer text to the front page:

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.


Would that help a little? :)

I was wondering what country the OP was from -- mostly because if he is an American, he's embarrassing me, and if he's from outside the US, his satire/parody is a bit broad. All this was gleaned from the...interesting...grammar of the post itself.

I was wondering what country the OP was from -- mostly because if he is an American, he's embarrassing me, and if he's from outside the US, his satire/parody is a bit broad. All this was gleaned from the...interesting...grammar of the post itself.

If your Dutch and French was as good as my English then you would have a reason to complain. Odds are high it isn't.

If you noticed that I'm not an American due the use of my poor grammar and vocabulary you should be happy that at least I can communicate with you and that I do my best.

I'm a little bit embarrassed that you do not have the politeness to treat non-English speaking people politely. It would be better to encourage them using YOUR language, instead of using some arrogant talks.

Not really. Like I said, the platform you posted is pretty much verbatim what the Republicans already run on. It's not remotely surprising to know that such a party really does exist. It's also not surprising that in any other nation these views are regarded as extremist...only in America do we label centrist conservatives as RADICAL LEFT WING SOCIALISTS.

Not so long ago a delegation of the VB went to America to talk with some prominent neocons. they went to the "Wednesday Center-Right Coalition Meeting" and the "Federation of American Immigration Reform" and had a meeting with Pat Buchanan. I have no clue who these organizations/people are nor why I'm posting this.

Ich hab dein Franzoesich gar nicht verstanden...aber manchmal kann ich Nederlands verstehen. Est ist doch eine geile sprache. Ich lieb wie du sagst "moedertaal".

Natuurlijk is Nederlands indeerdad lekker.:D

Nederlands is inderdaad zeer lekker, sehr geil.

Blah blah.

But in my postings, not one line was written about racism.

Suddenly, several people accused me of being a racist... *sigh*

...while it were clear nationalistic goals.

were you ironic (like the VB denying being racist) or honest?

Ach, ik heb geen schrik van het VB! Die zijn wel rechts, misschien wel extreem, maar geen Nazis hoor. :p

ik hoop alleen dat er nu geen nieuwe verkiezingen komen met de relatieve impasse waarin de regeringsvorming zich momenteel bevindt. Moest dat serieus overwogen worden zullen de onderhadelaars wel wat sneller overeen komen, maar als het er toch van komt zal het VB wel weer flinke winst boeken.
En natuurlijk zijn het geen nazi's, we leven nu eenmaal in een totaal andere wereld dan toen. Maar ik denk dat heel veel mensen die toen nazi waren niet hadden verwacht dat het zo'n vaart zou nemen, dus zo gerust zou ik er nu ook niet op zijn.

Ik denk dat ze het zelfs leuk zouden vinden.

Gewoon, ik was eens nieuwsgierig hoe Amerikanen op zo'n standpunten zouden reageren.

Ik heb écht zowat de standpunten integraal overgenomen van het Vlaams Belang.
Hier en daar heb ik iets moet 'veramerikaniseren' anders zouden ze de context missen.

Ik dacht dat ze eerder 'gewoontjes' er op zouden reageren.
Niet dus.

Omdat uiteindelijk het me op viel dat de Republikeinen eigenlijk quasi dezelfde standpunten hebben als het VB én soms zelfs verder gaan.

Nu ja, ik trek er nog geen conclusies uit. Enerzijds hebben niet écht overdreven veel mensen deze puntjes gezien en toevallig waren het misschien allemaal linkse jongens die de tread passeerden :)

NSG is relatief links, vandaar waarschijnlijk, ik weet het niet zeker, maar volgens mij is het ook geen uur waarop veel amerikanen online zijn.



it would ruin the experiment maybe. I am having fun reading the Dutch though, don't get much of a chance to, it's interesting.

have fun! ;) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=392194)

I added a disclaimer text to the front page:

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.


Would that help a little? :)

maybe you should add something about the experiment intself, because almost nobody is going to read everything, and people won't get it.

Isidoor;13064127]Not so long ago a delegation of the VB went to America to talk with some prominent neocons. they went to the "Wednesday Center-Right Coalition Meeting" and the "Federation of American Immigration Reform" and had a meeting with Pat Buchanan. I have no clue who these organizations/people are nor why I'm posting this.

Wow! Didn't know that one. For me, mister Pat is rather extreme right...


Nederlands is inderdaad zeer lekker, sehr geil.

Mannen die Nederlands spreken, kunnen alle wijven krijgen. :)


were you ironic (like the VB denying being racist) or honest?

I'm realy not a racist. If I was, I would tell. This is the internet, nobody can kill me. :)


ik hoop alleen dat er nu geen nieuwe verkiezingen komen met de relatieve impasse waarin de regeringsvorming zich momenteel bevindt. Moest dat serieus overwogen worden zullen de onderhadelaars wel wat sneller overeen komen, maar als het er toch van komt zal het VB wel weer flinke winst boeken.
En natuurlijk zijn het geen nazi's, we leven nu eenmaal in een totaal andere wereld dan toen. Maar ik denk dat heel veel mensen die toen nazi waren niet hadden verwacht dat het zo'n vaart zou nemen, dus zo gerust zou ik er nu ook niet op zijn.


Goh maar neen, geen schrik. Ze moeten dan wel 50% halen hoor en dat halen ze nooit. En wat is nu 3 maanden onderhandelen over een nieuwe regering?

Goed in Belgie zijn ze dat niet gewoon, maar in Nederland kan het soms véél langer duren. Zodoende... :)

Maar neen, het zijn geen Nazis. Kijk, ik vertrouw ze ook niet, maar Nazis zijn nog iets anders.

Qua partijlijnen liggen ze toch wel héél dicht bij de Republikeinen. En dat zijn toch ook geen Nazis?


NSG is relatief links, vandaar waarschijnlijk, ik weet het niet zeker, maar volgens mij is het ook geen uur waarop veel amerikanen online zijn.


Ja, ik schrok er wel van. Ik dacht dat er meer een mix zou zijn. Een beetje jammer eigenlijk.



have fun! ;) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=392194)



maybe you should add something about the experiment intself, because almost nobody is going to read everything, and people won't get it.

Yep, it's too late now anyway. I'll think about some text.

To increase accuracy, your party has been renamed to Mugabe Values.

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

Blah, too socially conservative; too xenophobic, homophobic undertones (I mean... "sexually decent behaviour"? I'm surprised no one else picked up on this one) and too... ick... you'd use zero tolerance? Why not just propose to adopt draconian Singapore laws?

Perhaps we should return to the good old days, when the Code of Hammurabi was in force.

Mannen die Nederlands spreken, kunnen alle wijven krijgen. :)

was het maar zo ;) misschien moet ik eens in een niet nederlandstalig land proberen :p

Goh maar neen, geen schrik. Ze moeten dan wel 50% halen hoor en dat halen ze nooit. En wat is nu 3 maanden onderhandelen over een nieuwe regering?

Goed in Belgie zijn ze dat niet gewoon, maar in Nederland kan het soms véél langer duren. Zodoende... :)

Maar neen, het zijn geen Nazis. Kijk, ik vertrouw ze ook niet, maar Nazis zijn nog iets anders.

Qua partijlijnen liggen ze toch wel héél dicht bij de Republikeinen. En dat zijn toch ook geen Nazis?

hmm, ik weet niet of die voorlaatste zin me nu gerust stelt of juist niet. Echt bang ben ik ook niet, verre van zelfs, maar het is misschien toch geen slecht idee om op je hoede te blijven.

Ja, ik schrok er wel van. Ik dacht dat er meer een mix zou zijn. Een beetje jammer eigenlijk.

meh, zo jammer vind ik het nu ook weer niet, misschien niet echt goed voor het debat.

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

that would probably help.

Perhaps we should return to the good old days, when the Code of Hammurabi was in force.

That's quite old. :) And those aren't even the "good" days either my friend. ;)

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

So, American values pretty much parallel French values, British values, Spanish values, Saudi Arabian values, Chinese values, Korean values, etc?

Well, aside from you being belgian and a seperatist at that...

Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

Your mom was a whore and your dad was a crack dealer, but you can't touch me with a ten-foot pole, because I am allowed to slander you as much as I want, correct?

Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

Neither of which will ever affect you so... why do you bother legalizing on these issues?

We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

Great idea! sarcasm alert!
Use a Belgian political program in the US! Furthermore, you do realize that the sender of illegal immigrants are the migrants themselves, right? You are going to send migrants back to themselves? Get a better line at the very least.

Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.

Recent events just made me realize that the more you crackdown on crime, the bigger the problem of crime becomes.

Passive protection of our society by video cameras.

You call it protection, I call it unjust surveillance.

Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.

Again, no one sends criminals anywhere.

All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.

Are you going to ban alcohol and nicotine?

Because otherwise you're just full of hot air.

Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.

Beginning to sound awfully close to corporatism. Some people will know what I would relate this to, but I will avoid a godwin.

Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.

So, Americans are objects now? Even I don't sink to that level of insults towards my fellow man.

English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.

The government of the US already does that, but there is no official language in the US, nor does it fit the society.

The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

So you say Defence Power, but you mean Attack Power?

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

You support Vlaams Belang, do you not?

Then you are a nationalist/separatist. Last I checked, Vlaams Belang was also kicked out of parliament for being racist, so by association, you are racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party.

It's Vlaams Belang, and you forgot the part about "we want independence from the country that makes us powerful!"

So no, I do not agree with most of these issues and any issues I do agree with, I can easily vote for other parties that won't give me a ton of bullshit.

That's quite old. :) And those aren't even the "good" days either my friend. ;)

Shh...I'm satiwizing wabbits.

Ahhhh that explains it, I was hoping that it was summit like that, and not your own views.

He has declared, in former threads, that he supports them.

That means that they are indeed his own views.

Perhaps we should return to the good old days, when the Code of Hammurabi was in force.

Unfortunately, we do not have the technology to return Bush from the dead 3,781 times.

*The OP*
I lol at everything you hypothetically stand for.

I could never support a party like this. It is the polar opposite of what the United States is supposed to represent (in my mind).

I'm loving the poll results, how humiliating for Ed. :p

Vlaams Blok and some associated organizations, the predecessor of Vlaams Belang were convicted for racism and spreading hate. They stopped receiving the money every party receives from the state, but avoided this by starting a new party, Vlaams belang. iirc

and it's stupid to call every VB'er racist. they also gain a lot of protest-votes for other reasons.

I am aware of some of the legal wranglings they performed. VB remains VB though. Same people, same party, same program.

Sure they do, but to claim that he doesn't support them amounts to trolling because it means that he has claimed to support a position he himself would not support, for the simple purpose of getting people to get angry.

So he's either a liar and a troll or a supporter of Vlaams Belang. I am rather curious which one it is.

Then you are a nationalist/separatist. Last I checked, Vlaams Belang was also kicked out of parliament for being racist, so by association, you are racist.


Vlaams Blok and some associated organizations, the predecessor of Vlaams Belang were convicted for racism and spreading hate. They stopped receiving the money every party receives from the state, but avoided this by starting a new party, Vlaams belang. iirc

and it's stupid to call every VB'er racist. they also gain a lot of protest-votes for other reasons.

:confused: didn't he state that he doesn't support the VB?

Here he has. Probably because he was trying to see how many people would hate him if he did state his support.

However, in another thread he specifically stated his support for VB. If I could be bothered, I'd find the thread, but I ain't going to make a bigger deal out of this anyway.

(so... many... timewarps!)

I am aware of some of the legal wranglings they performed. VB remains VB though. Same people, same party, same program.

Sure they do, but to claim that he doesn't support them amounts to trolling because it means that he has claimed to support a position he himself would not support, for the simple purpose of getting people to get angry.

So he's either a liar and a troll or a supporter of Vlaams Belang. I am rather curious which one it is.

:confused: didn't he state that he doesn't support the VB?

I wanted to debate some extreme-conservative American, but instead it's just some local party. This sucks. :(

*likes di(scu)ssing Neo-Cons*

I wanted to debate some extreme-conservative American, but instead it's just some local party. This sucks. :(

*likes di(scu)ssing Neo-Cons*

ja, het gras is steeds groener aan de overzijde, niet?

ja, het gras is steeds groener aan de overzijde, niet?
Uh, I don't speak German. Sorry.

Français, peut-être?

"Not my cup of tea" is an understatement.

Uh, I don't speak German. Sorry.

Français, peut-être?

oh, I thought they spoke Dutch in Asse. it was a pretty useless comment, never mind.

I was already having trouble with the proposal fairly early on, but the words "zero tolerance" sealed the deal.

Not only is this not my cup of tea, it doesn't even belong in my pantry.

Bad taste bad taste bad taste.

This is coming from me.

Fail.

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.

This is one of the few I think you should apply but, not to foreigners. It's be nice if the average American knew more about their country than the average foreign visitor (Which from experience is NOT the case.)

There are a couple of good points, but mostly it's mired in xenophobia. No thanks.

'Xenophobia' :rolleyes:

Oh man I would just loved to be patronised to death on one of those America courses.

Would they start making me spell everything with American English? :eek:

That's "patronized". PATRONIZED. Get it right or we'll kick you out!

Oh man I would just loved to be patronised to death on one of those America courses.

Would they start making me spell everything with American English? :eek:

"Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia"
+
"We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state."
+
"Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…"

= NO. To me, these three points add up to a state wherein the only way to shore up demographic collapse in the face of stifled immigration is for the state to exert control (to the point of tacit ownership) over citizens' bodies. No abortion and "decent sexual behaviour," sound like coded precursors for "women are going to be nice, obedient breeding mares, and homos get deported or locked up for sexual immorality and not adding to the population." It's a recipe for misogyny and rampant homophobia, which is already bad enough in the world. Plus the rest of it is lightweight on actual solutions to economic and education policy problems. "We'll cut taxes and reduce bureaucracy (which means cutting bureaucrats' jobs) and we'll 'fix' education." It's overly simplistic, and therefore doesn't address real complexities, so is undeserving of the reigns of state power.

"women are going to be nice, obedient breeding mares"

actually iirc they did propose to pay women who stayed home to breed and take care of the kids (as in: not to help families but encourage women to stay home)

I also remember an elections advertisement in "de zondag" iirc, a whole page in which one candidate is shown protesting against gays etc (like our own Fred Phelps) and the article/propaganda was full of mysogenic (wile the candidate herself was a woman) and homophobic texts.

I say old chap, now I have always been quitely impressed by the intelegents you show here, but that shows a lack of quite a lot of things. I aint Indian, yet I know an awful of of it's culture, it's tensions, it history and it's religoins.

Isn't it possible to know without being a residant?

I guess you probably just have not read where Edwinasia, explains his reasons for posting huh?

I'll give you that one.

nope. except for the supposrt of free speech, this goes almost completely against my beliefs.

Oh, and one more thing:

not all generalites are americans.

So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

[/SIZE][/B]

HEIL HITLER!!!

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.

Well, that doesn't work. A forgeiner can easily become an American -- it a matter of staying long enough, passing a test and taking an oath. PS most Americans can't pass the citizenship test.

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

I'd agree, providing that a person can sue for any damages caused by false speech harming one's career. I.e you falsely accuse your neighbor (a teacher by trade) of being a pedophile, he can never get hired as a teacher again. For that loss, he should get compensation.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

Agreed, provided that Abortion can be provided to save the mother's life.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.

Well, I'm in favour of returning illegal immigrants, however I don't know how you'd do that without rounding up lots of Hispanics, many of whom are American Citizens.

Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.

I think what you're discribing is a "Police State". I don't think you can eliminate crime completely in the first place, but in order to give the police the power and funds needed to catch all the criminals, you'd have to virtually eliminate the 4th Amendment, and the principle of the Right To Privacy.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

This is actually fairly liberal for America, and I agree with it. However, I think the government should be permitted to use any language necesary to get the point across in whatever languages are spoken. I don't want a building to fall on a guy who doesn't leave 'cause he only speaks Thai and the government only speaks English. I draw the line at public safety.


Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.[/QUOTE]

There are a couple of good points, but mostly it's mired in xenophobia. No thanks.

Nope. Way too xenophobic, way too conservative socially, and does not seem to be based upon something that could really happen.

What is "xenophobia"? I've heard of the word before, but I don't know what it means.

Omitting the interdiction of drugs, the use of CCTV, and the ludicrous position taken upon euthanasia and abortion, quite possibly. If I was American of course.

Are you saying that narcotics should be legalized?

Uh, I don't speak German. Sorry.

Français, peut-être?

I think that was Dutch, not German.

What is "xenophobia"? I've heard of the word before, but I don't know what it means.

Dictionaries are great when you don't know words.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xenophobia

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

What I agree with, I have boldened.

I would send "'small' drug users" to prison if "recovery programmes" failed.

And no, opposing abortion does NOT equal misogyny. I don't hate women; I just don't think that innocent "fetuses" (unborn babies) should be murdered. Abortion is not a matter of "women's rights"; it's a matter of SHEDDING INNOCENT BLOOD, and a "fetus" (an unborn baby) never did anything to merit being brutally murdered. Even if you say "the fetus' existence inconveniences the mother", that is still no reason for the baby to be viciously slaughtered.

The only reason for abortion would be if it is medically necessary to save the mother's life.

I believe Americans should have the SAME rights that LEGAL immigrants and visiting foreign nationals have, but illegal immigrants have no business being in this country, they are not citizens, and therefore should not have as many rights as natural-born citizens and legal immigrants have, at least if they (the illegals) don't speak English.

I believe foreign nationals who wish to immigrate should be required to learn English.

Uh, I don't speak German. Sorry.

Français, peut-être?
It's Vlaams, you fool!

HEIL HITLER!!!

Coming from Mr. Pragmatist who prizes genuflection to anybody in authority over Mr. Hectoresque academic education, the merits of that comaprison are limited.

Not USian but...

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
Aborignals Rejoyce

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
Insulting, okay, untrue... dependants on the forum.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
Will fetuses only be of concern when they're from the USA and unborn? Why do you want to take rights away from some children based on their nationality (point 1) and give them to others because they're unborn. Oh, and I want the right to my body and that means the right to die.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
Nah.

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
I think they (and any others from the USA) should recieve a civics course, with a far amount of history. But no flag waving in school please. Oh and what values and "culture"? That part is a: no.

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
People already get ridiculusly long sentences they don't deserve. Sentences do not need to be increased. Work on preventing crime with social programs instead of when it's too late.

• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
Fuck them up worse, great.

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
In certain areas owned by the government (schools and whatnot) fair enough, but not on every street corner. I want my privacy. And good like with the installation fees.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
What about their children with a citizenship? And for violent crimes, okay. But not for others.

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
Allow soft drugs. I agree with the rest.

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
Don't know about how much you are taxed already as I'm not from the USA so: maybe.

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
Sometimes, it is needed.

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.YES!

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
Yay! Good, nice ideas.

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
Allow for speaking and teaching of other languages but other then that, okay.

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
I believe in taking money saved by green companies from those who pollute the most.

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.
I like it.

Overall: A few good points but.... no.

Dictionaries are great when you don't know words.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xenophobia

Thanks.

Ooohhh. Americans = Nazi's now. How fun and witty.

I created some fictional party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.
Assimilate or DIE!

American Values – Own People First!
Can I own some Mexicans? I'd also like a few Canadians while I'm at it/

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
Death to all foriegners with ways different that our own!!! They look funny. And talk funny.

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
I only support this is if the government is the only one with this right.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
Unless the fetus is ghey. Then it's acceptable.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
But I want to own Mexicans and Canadians.:(

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
But not the ones I own right?

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
Yes, you all must watch Jerry Springer from 1400 to 1900 daily.

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
http://sfc.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/images/sfc3/borg_picture.gif

• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
Kill them all!!!

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
Like England yeah?

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
And we will ship them off in a garbage barge.

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
Only bad people use drugs.
http://www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/i/s_thompson_c.jpg

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
And get extra taxes from where?


• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
On a serious note, I actually agree with this.

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
But you've reduced the taxes. How would you pay for this.:confused:

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
Abstinince only. *nods*

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
Ya don need educashun to wurk in pa's car lot.

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
And Klingon.

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
What's wrong with the real Kyoto standard?

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.
Actually, if we just build a wall, we won't need an army at all. Let's build a giant wall around the country.

So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!
I think you are high.

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.
Nah, much more fun to insinuate America = Third Reich.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
Try harder to mask your intent.

I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.
I'm interested in your bigotry.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.
Any good nationalist should be 100% in line with the party.

There are a couple of good points, but mostly it's mired in xenophobia. No thanks.

^this^

yeah, that

I could probably get behind some of this...

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

Is it?

Using 'Fuck'...

Then suggesting that I'm stupid or at least unknown...."Fuck" is a highly versatile word. It can be used to insult someone, but not always.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

So far, I am not impressed, the NAME puts me off, and I assume you mean "OUR Own People First" but it is a slogan I don't like either. But let us examine further....
• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.

All Americans, except for the Native American Indians started off as foreigners, and Native Americans certainly don't have more rights. So who exactly gets more rights?

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

We can already be insulting, how is untrue good? Are you suggesting yelling "FIRE" in a theatre should be OK? Should it be OK to lie about people and destroy their reputations?

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

No. And no. Wrong on both counts.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

Needs of the state? Define that please. Closing our borders is very much like children playing King of the Mountain. "We got here first, so you have to go away, nyah nyah!"

And a BIG no to "hunting down" people of any sort as a group, thank you. Also, see point one and tell me how you define who gets sent back? Should be all of us, no?

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.

How is this fair? AMERICANS are not required to know this stuff. Who gets to define what "American values" are? I am an American, and none of the points on this platform reflect MY values. And how would you pick which parts of American culture are important? You could spend your entire life studying American culture and barely scratch the surface.

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.

We are close enough to a police state already, so no thanks.

Zero tolerance means that wrongful arrests will be very difficult to fight. It also means that the preference will be to send more innocent people to jail to reduce the risk of a possible guilty one getting away. No thanks!

Punishing children more severly than adults? On what grounds?

No to video cameras. It is all too easy for the government to track us down now... no need to grant MORE Big Brother abilities to them or they will think they have the RIGHT to invade our privacy for the hell of it.

Foreign criminals returned to sender? So basically you would punish them, then once they have payed their time, punish them again. How is that at all good or fair?

And as to drug dealers, our current drug laws are SO effective and enforceable, so by all means, lets make them MORE draconian. :rolleyes:

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.

How exactly would this work? Who are you going to tax instead?

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.

How exactly would this work? How are you going to be able to affect all of the above (and below) reforms without creating more work for the government? And how are we going to be able to tell who is a real citizen and who is a foriegner without more paperwork for civilians?

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.

Nice idea, yes, but you are cutting taxes, so where does the money for this come from? And how will it be managed with less paperwork?

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…

Abstinence education on its own is wildly ineffective. And who gets to define what is "sexually decent behavior"?

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.

How? You have cut taxes, how does this get funded? And how, exactly, would "refreshing the entire education system" combat poverty? And would you take foreign language out of the curriculum? That is a bad idea... everyone SHOULD learn a second language!

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.

The Kyoto standard already does this. How will creating our own cut back on "bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, [and] companies"? Egocentric (well, this whole PLATFORM is, really) of us to do, don't you think?

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.
They will? Why? While I agree that we should not be out attacking other countries, what, specifically, is going to make them think twice that doesn't already do so?

So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!
OK. I vote no.

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

All of the disclaimers are fine... but what exactly DO you agree with?

Oh, and as you can see from my assessment, there is precious little of this I do agree with.

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

I think your pony has only one trick, and it's getting mighty boring to watch.

If your Dutch and French was as good as my English then you would have a reason to complain. Odds are high it isn't.

If you noticed that I'm not an American due the use of my poor grammar and vocabulary you should be happy that at least I can communicate with you and that I do my best.

I'm a little bit embarrassed that you do not have the politeness to treat non-English speaking people politely. It would be better to encourage them using YOUR language, instead of using some arrogant talks.



You know, it's considered quite rude to suddenly start conversing mid-thread in a language that not everyone participating knows. I'm a little bit embarassed that you chose to exclude people and be so impolite.

You know, it's considered quite rude to suddenly start conversing mid-thread in a language that not everyone participating knows.Tell that to the Netherlands topic.

Tell that to the Netherlands topic.

Context, my dear, context. The Netherlands topic is a self-contained thread where all the participants are speaking Dutch. When people started spamming it mid-thread with idiotic comments in English, we were just as fast to ding them.

Context, my dear, context. The Netherlands topic is a self-contained thread where all the participants are speaking Dutch. When people started spamming it mid-thread with idiotic comments in English, we were just as fast to ding them.I am really just upset that I can participate in the spamfest I have heard it is due to my English-ness.

I am really just upset that I can participate in the spamfest I have heard it is due to my English-ness.

And you know it is a spamfest because....?

An older boy told me so.

Besides, how unspammy could a thread titled "the Netherlands Topic" be? What could the possible discussion be about, and still be interesting after the what 1000+ posts it received? Besides, spam threads are much nicer than serious threads, and I would like to think that the Dutch have nice threads.

*shrug*
Start your own specialized thread.

And you know it is a spamfest because....?An older boy told me so.

Besides, how unspammy could a thread titled "the Netherlands Topic" be? What could the possible discussion be about, and still be interesting after the what 1000+ posts it received? Besides, spam threads are much nicer than serious threads, and I would like to think that the Dutch have nice threads.

*shrug*
Start your own specialized thread.I will.

Later.

PS-Do I seem to be posting in the future in this thread?

I understand enough of it to know it's usually mindless Dutch nonsense about smooking weed and making fun of American tourists, eating space cake then trying to run through the windmill fields in wooden shoes, and...well, OF COURSE neuken in de keuken.;)

You lost me on the first prop, and I stopped reading on the third one. If you actually had anything valid to say, you shoulda put that up front instead, because your opening salvo was a dud.

No it's not too extreme at face value. I do like some of those points I will admit. It's a good start.

Since I've got nothing better to do, I might as well just go through each point:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners: That kind of makes sense and is more or less how it is now.

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting: Can't argue with this.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia: I agree, but they should not be banned, or at the very least left up to each state.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state. I disagree. Legal immigration is a very good thing and is responsible for our country's strength in the first place.

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender. I'd prefer to give them citizenship, but this works too. Either way, the status quo doesn't work.

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture. Unless Americans have to do the same thing when residing in other nations, I'm opposed to it. Learning about cultures goes both ways.

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system. Agree with this. However, there's a lot more to reducing crime than simply putting more police on the streets. It requires a mutli-pronged approach.

• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced. This can't hurt.

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras. Given that pretty much all private businesses have security cameras, extending it to the public domain isn't particularly troublesome. However, the line should be drawn at private property.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.Extradition makes more sense, but in some cases this may be the only way to obtain real justice when their home country is blatantly corrupt or unable to sentence the violator.

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes. Not a good idea. Prohibition will do nothing but drain resources and lead to the kind of bureaucracy and corruption that mitigate the effects of added policing. Legalization should be on a case by case basis.

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure. Bad idea. Tax rates should be uniform to encourage foreign investment, and rather than risk a retaliatory trade war the government should pursue trade violations more vigorously.

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum. Watch Brazil.

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.This makes no sense and will only lead to shortages. Price controls are the number one driver of hidden inflation and shortages. The cost of healthcare should be set by the market with government acting as insurer of last resort.

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…Good idea. Can't go wrong here.

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back. That's a major component of the war on poverty, and when combined with stronger anti-crime measures and government health insurance will make a dent in poverty.

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.Makes sense, but there would need to be a system to teach people the language in order to prevent a linguistic divide from harming the country. However, the private sector would help assuage this problem.

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.Sounds like a plan. A one size fits all policy is simply not workable unless all participants are relatively equal.

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country. Good idea. However, force projection is a must for protecting allies and securing strategic interests.

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.

No way. People do not come in castes.

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

Okay, with reservations.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

I support rights to both, and have no moral problem with either, so....

• We will close our border.

No one is illegal.

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

That would be a moral crime, causing a massive quantity of unnecessary suffering without the slightest veneer of justification. I support unconditional amnesty.

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.

Assimilation will happen naturally in the context of an accepting society. No need to force it artificially.

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.

Too many cops, too little justice.

• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced

And here I was thinking that "extra attention" met actually "extra attention", instead of just locking them up for longer... like that will somehow help make them productive members of society.

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.

I like my privacy, thanks.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses.

A recipe for the enhancement of international crime.

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.

I support legalizing soft drugs... so no.

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.

I, on the other hand, advocate their socialization.

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.

Great! Only everybody promises to do that, and when it's attempted, it's easy for it to be done rather poorly (see "Iraq").

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.

I support universal health care.

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…

Good, mostly... but what is sexual "decent behavior"?

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education.

As long as there is poverty, education for the poor will be inferior. It is a product, as well as a cause, of poverty.

You need a more comprehensive program to tackle poverty.

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.

But I like Spanish....

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard.

Only global warming is a global problem, and pollution in one nation can have global consequences, so a global plan is better than a national plan....

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

We have nukes. I'm sure they'll think twice even if we don't spend four hundred billion dollars annually.

So what do you think of “American Values”?

I'll pass.

He has declared, in former threads, that he supports them.

That means that they are indeed his own views.

Yes is it? Show me where I support those topics.

You are a liar. Sorry.

Not all Belgians are separatist. Most of them are not. I’m not one, as well.

Vlaams Belang is not kicked out the parliament.
I do not support them.
I am not a racist.

These party topics are not unique to Vlaams Belang. If you study Front National in France or the National Party in UK you would see the same issues.
And you can extend this to most of the extreme right winged parties.

Oh btw, the American Republicans are also close (or have the same) to these issues...

The 'bullshit' is real. I didn't invent any party topic...

Maybe, you should have read the entire tread. Then you would know the purpose of this whole thing...





Well, aside from you being belgian and a seperatist at that...



Your mom was a whore and your dad was a crack dealer, but you can't touch me with a ten-foot pole, because I am allowed to slander you as much as I want, correct?



Neither of which will ever affect you so... why do you bother legalizing on these issues?



Great idea! sarcasm alert!
Use a Belgian political program in the US! Furthermore, you do realize that the sender of illegal immigrants are the migrants themselves, right? You are going to send migrants back to themselves? Get a better line at the very least.



Recent events just made me realize that the more you crackdown on crime, the bigger the problem of crime becomes.



You call it protection, I call it unjust surveillance.



Again, no one sends criminals anywhere.



Are you going to ban alcohol and nicotine?

Because otherwise you're just full of hot air.



Beginning to sound awfully close to corporatism. Some people will know what I would relate this to, but I will avoid a godwin.



So, Americans are objects now? Even I don't sink to that level of insults towards my fellow man.



The government of the US already does that, but there is no official language in the US, nor does it fit the society.



So you say Defence Power, but you mean Attack Power?



You support Vlaams Belang, do you not?

Then you are a nationalist/separatist. Last I checked, Vlaams Belang was also kicked out of parliament for being racist, so by association, you are racist.



It's Vlaams Belang, and you forgot the part about "we want independence from the country that makes us powerful!"

So no, I do not agree with most of these issues and any issues I do agree with, I can easily vote for other parties that won't give me a ton of bullshit.

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

I vote nay.

This party's stances are critically flawed on many key elements including(but not limited to): Abortion, equal rights, immigration, right to privacy and freedom of expression.

Ok, I will assess this party by myself:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.

I think it’s normal that foreigners have fewer rights. But that won’t say that foreigners wouldn’t have any rights at all.

By instance, according my opinion, foreigners should not have the right to vote.
If they want voting power and some other rights, they have to become, in this case, American.

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

This is a tricky one. I would say yes I support it, but there should be some exceptions. I don’t think it’s good that you can insult people or lie about them in such a way that they lose their job or marriage.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

I do not agree. We have both in Belgium and abortion or euthanasia isn’t rising at hell. I consider it as a right. If you don’t like these rights then don’t use it. But respect people that are prepared to use these rights. You are not forced to use this right.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.

Yes, I think there is a need for. Not one country, even US, can open its border for the whole world. The country would collapse.

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

No, I don’t agree. But I have no mercy for criminal immigrants.

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture

No, I don’t agree. But I think that people that want the American nationality should know some basic American history, know the basic American values and speak the official language.
.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.

No, I don’t believe in zero tolerance. I don’t think a society could win the ‘war’ on criminality either. For some crimes, alternative punishments seem to work better.

Around 1700 it was very common in England to steel some sheep. It happen so much that the government decided to install the final punishment for this crime.
It didn’t help. Sheep were still stolen like it was nothing.

Why? Odds that they bust you, were small.

This is still working today. Not the grade of sentence decides if people behave or not. Look at the death penalty in some states in USA. It doesn’t prevent murder at all.


• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced

I don’t agree. But I think that we should take special care for such trouble children.

In general, those kids can’t help, their parents have an enormous responsibility. Maybe, we should separate them away from such parents and give them what they really need.

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.

Hell no. I really hate cameras. In my opinion it’s interfering my privacy.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity

Yes, I agree. It’s normal. If people can’t behave, we don’t have to nurse them for ever.

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.

I don’t agree. Drug users do not belong in jail. Using drugs should be lifted from the punishment law. But that won’t say we should allow just everything. Hard drug should be illegal, some soft drugs should be available.

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.

No, I think it is a bad idea. It would distract foreign investors.

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum

Yes, a very good idea. It’s costing lots of money and it is slowing down progress.

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.

Yes, I like this concept.

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…

Vaccinations: yes. Sexual decent behaviour campaigns: no.

But (young) people should be informed about alcohol, drugs, tobacco, sex…

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.

Yes, I agree. I really think that there’s a correlation between education and poverty.

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language

Yes, I agree.
.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.

No, we should listen and cooperate with other countries. Pollution is not a local theme, but it is affecting the entire globe.

However, rewarding green behaviour is just a step in the right direction.

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

I think the army should disappear at all. It is really a waste of money.
On the other hand, you have to be realistic, you need some army.

But is America in need for a sophisticated army of the current size?

I don’t think so. I don’t think that Russia, China or whatever country would invade US the next decades.

According my naïf opinion we should form a new kind of UN. Every country should mandatory reduce its army to a small but still adequate size.
Further on, if one member is attacked, all the others member should attack the aggressor.


Anyway, I would never give my vote to American Values

The only reason for abortion would be if it is medically necessary to save the mother's life.

Wonderful! So, mandatory abortions then?

Seeing as how giving birth is more dangerous, it'd only make sense to save the mother's life through mandatory abortions.

Yes is it? Show me where I support those topics.

You are a liar. Sorry.

Hello no I'm not a Nazi and I have not one tattoo.

But it bothers me to see my country changing in a way that I do not recognize my country anymore.

It bothers me that foreigners come to here, do not adapt themselve on our way of life, do not show any interest in our culture and after a while say we should adapt us to them.

It bothers me that the Belgium jails are housing for 50% people from foreign origin.

It bothers me that the majority of 'small' crimes are commited by people from foreign origin.

I want to get rid of the bad apples. Return them to sender.

When you are invited, I expect that you'll behave yourself according my houserules.
And if you don't, I'll kick you out.

And if you don't like it, do not come to my house.

You may not be a Nazi, but these are the main points of VB, along with the seperation from Wallonia. Points which your post here show that you agree with.

Of course, if that's (the separatist aspect) the only thing keeping you from voting for them, you might as well call yourself a supporter.

Perhaps if Edwinasia edited the OP so that it was clear to people coming into the thread for the first time that this was 'an experiment' and that these were not his views there would be a whole lot less confusion in here.

Just a thought :)

Although he does explain all that on page one or two, perhaps people can also read the whole thread before jumping in with assumptions on what it is about?

He has declared, in former threads, that he supports them.

That means that they are indeed his own views.

Yet he has decalred in this thread that they are not.

After sagely contemplation, I have concluded that I have yet to validate my opinion in a way that belittles this fictitious party's platform. As such, I have deduced that it is high time (;)) that I pursue this recourse.

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Oh boy! A pro-slavery party... oh wait, that's just a bad translation. False advertising I say! I cry foul!

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.

And which foreigners would those be? The ones visiting or the ones who aren't even in the nation? After all, there are foreigners who visit the nation, right?

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

Don't we already say what we want and damning the consequences? Some of us are just a little more brash than others methinks. How would this work, and would there be legal recourse for defamation, libel and slander or would that not exist given the heightened freedom of speech rights?

Does this apply to written as well or is written speech not included with oral?

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

These two are not the same thing at all.

Euthanasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia) is taken from Ancient Greek meaning 'good death', as in it relieves the person of their burden and allows for them to die in peace rather than in pain. Why should anyone be forced to die painfully? Shouldn't one grant a person the right to die painlessly?

And what makes abortion unacceptable anyway? The foetus is lacking in many physical qualities that would enable it to survive outside of the womb until late in the pregnancy. Further, the choice to abort isn't about "killing" the foetus, it's about whether or not the woman, who has reproductive rights wants to carry the pregnancy to term. Abortion ends the pregnancy.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.

So, this means that the country would be closing itself to tourists? They're foreigners.

This seems like an attack on the tourism industry. There go a whole lot of jobs down the drain. There's a fraction of the population that is now unemployed and lacking in earning and spending power. Your economy will feel the burn from this.

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

So who is an "illegal immigrant"? Would this include asylum seekers? Would you force someone back to their original country if they came illegally but as asylum seekers?

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.

Great, so Americans will be taking these as well or will they be exempt? Why should immigrants know more about America than Americans? Why doesn't the government want to force this knowledge unto Americans? Wouldn't this be a great way to instil patriotic values or is this too nationalistic? Too jingoistic?

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.

The only point that makes sense is to have more officers on the beat but not necessarily hire more; build a sense of trust between the police and the civilian population. When there is trust people will come forward to help prevent crime.

Zero tolerance doesn't work. It's a solution for uncreative people who refuse to think outside the box.

Strict punishment doesn't work. If someone really wants to commit a crime, even the death penalty will not deter them.

Shame is the greatest form of deterrence.

• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced

Extra attention may be a good thing provided that this attention goes into preventative education and early programmes that help troubled youth before they reach the point of no return.

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.

This is already happening.

Video cameras are not protecting our society. Even with these cameras in place crime still occurs; we are not protected. These cameras are not able to actually do anything other than violate our privacy.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.

So waste taxpayer dollars on imprisonment? This platform mentions taxcuts but someone has to pay for this upkeep. It would be cheaper just to send back to sender, no?

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.

"Recovery" programmes will not work if the user is NOT addicted and/or they do not want the help. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink.

And what exactly are "hard" and "soft" drugs defined as? Too vague to be of any use or even consideration. Far too broad.

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.

Sounds like interference in the market by the government, very anti-capitalist. Why support companies that may produce inferior products simply because it's "home made"?

Further, where would the lost tax dollars be found to support some of the recommended/proposed reforms?

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.

This contradicts some of the earlier reforms on the grounds that those reforms would require paper work.

This would also eliminate existing jobs and inadvertently affect the economy and the population's general earning and spending power, thus likely producing a recession.

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.

A nice idea but with the tax cuts, where does the money come from?

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…

Preventative healthcare is a nice idea but where does the money come from if there are tax cuts?

Who determines what is "sexually decent behaviour"? Sounds like an attempt to creature a traditional nation where homosexuality is illegal and women have no sexual rights of their own (see the revocation of the right to an abortion).

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.

Education. A novel idea but who pays? Would it be a user-paid system? Tax payer dollars are not infinite. The budget is getting spread thin here.

You have too much economic interference; you're driving up the cost of foreign goods, slashing taxes for local companies, cutting jobs yet you want a comprehensive and competitive education system to combat poverty?

The money to pay for it has to come from somewhere and not everyone can afford a user-pay system.

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.

As long as it doesn't stifle the use of other languages. As an official language of business it's fine; set a common standard. However, this would affect tourism because not everyone speaks English or is tourism going to remain stifled because of the closed borders?

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.

Your government has very little money left. How does it intend to pay for anything if you're not taxing people and cooperate entities?


• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

Congratulations, you're country is bankrupt.

Unless you redirect a hell of a lot of money from social programmes (preventing you from making good on those reforms), you'll be unable to fund a decent military unless you want to run up a massive deficit, leading to a crippling debt which will invariably affect the economy in the long run because your creditor nations from which you borrow as you have limit funds because of numerous tax cuts and thus forcing a recession.

This recession will cause a further loss in jobs. The only stable jobs will be in the military but even those positions are finite and not everyone can perform the duties required.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.[/SIZE][/B]

I find myself disagreeing with pretty much everything here, as I agree with the entire platform for the federal and provincial NDP where I live.

Reading through your point by point break-down of whether or not you do agree with the program presented, I'll say that it's only because VB is intensely disrespectful of my situation (I was born and grew up in Belgian. I know both languages, but if VB were to come to power, I would have no right to be a Belgian citizen even though I've actually considered dropping my Danish citizenship just to be able to legally call myself Belgian) that I'm probably taking it out on you, seeing as how first impressions have such power over how people view each other.

There may be things we disagree with, but I admit that you do indeed not support VB and I am sorry for the hatred spewed at you. Past few days haven't been too kind on me either :p I do hope you can forgive me though.

So yeah, sorry. First impressions stick... badly.

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

No, I don’t agree. But I have no mercy for criminal immigrants.

Isn't an illegal immigrant by definition a criminal, though?

Or would illegal immigrants get the chance to become legal immigrants?

Not really. It's not as bad as it could have been but still...


Not just xenophobia, really, but a lot of blatant racism and misogyny. I guess my assumption that "values" has become a code word for "panicked honky boys" still holds true...
The xenophobia maybe I could see. But "blatant racism and misogyny"? ah.. no sorry.

The xenophobia maybe I could see. But "blatant racism and misogyny"? ah.. no sorry.

Asserting that female citizens should not have the right to bodily autonomy qualifies as misogyny in my book. But then, I believe all persons deserve equal rights under the law, regardless of sex.

Not really. It's not as bad as it could have been but still...



The xenophobia maybe I could see. But "blatant racism and misogyny"? ah.. no sorry.

I am assuming that Bottle, like many feminists, sees any laws that limit women's access to abortion to be sexist or misogynist in nature.

I am not sure that this is 100% true, but I believe that most laws touching on women's sexuality are rooted in some sort of fear of women's sexuality.

Misogyny? Maybe not, but quite possibly. Sexism? Definitely.

EDIT: Apparently Bottle can answer for herself more quickly than I can.

The xenophobia maybe I could see. But "blatant racism and misogyny"? ah.. no sorry.

Subtle sexism; kind of as subtle as a troll in a flamefest.

The first being with the outlawing of abortion, thus limiting the sexual reproductive rights of women, the second being with 'sexually decent behaviour'. This can be interpreted in a number of ways, including and not limited to rules governing women's sexuality as well as homosexuality.

By saying "sexually decent behaviour", the implication is that only heterosexual relations in the missionary position for the sole purpose of copulation is acceptable.

Asserting that female citizens should not have the right to bodily autonomy qualifies as misogyny in my book. But then, I believe all persons deserve equal rights under the law, regardless of sex.
So the part about abortion...right?

Sorry, my mistake. I was under the impression that I might've missed something, so you had valid, unbiased reasoning behind your assertions. Again, my mistake.

It's Vlaams, you fool!
I know, I just don't like it when non-English-speaking people suddenly start discussing in their own language on international websites.

Nationalism = racsim

Nationalism takes many forms. The civic, territorial and inclusive varieties can be quite positive. An oft-quoted example is modern France, where a slightly artificial national identity was used to unify the country; subdue all the separatists, on the fringes; and secularise the country. In recent years, the policy has changed a little, as regional government has been introduced, but most official attitudes, most notably those towards education, remain the same. In that context, it is now Islam, and not Roman Catholicism, which is seen as a threat to the authority of the state.

It's the ethnic, linguistic and religious forms of nationalism, which do the damage. Ireland (both north and south), "Republika Serbska" within Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Basque Country and Indonesia spring to mind.

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.

This is completely illogical. America IS a nation of foreigners. How far do you want to take it? Are you going to chuck out the Swedes, Germans, Irish and leave only those, who can prove that they had at least one ancestor, resident in the Thirteen Colonies in 1783?

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

OK, then. You have gonorrhea and like having sex with your brother and sister.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

So, lots of teenage girls will go to Canada (of they have a little bit of money) or to some HIV-infested knitting-needle parlour in a back alley (if they have none).
It's wrong to encourage abortion but the alternative is much worse. Education and incentives are the answer, not turning the Mid West into an extension of the Vatican.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.

If immigration is restricted to the "needs of the state", then there will be no change because you have always demanded that people of another race wait on you, hand and foot, in actual (or virtual) slavery. This makes you exactly the same as the National Party in South Africa. Apartheid was nonsense for many reasons but the most obvious was that Afrikaners wanted houseboys, maids, window cleaners, bin men etc, whom they could pay a pittance.

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

So that they can come back, the following week? Are you content to close most shops, restaurants, cinemas etc in New Mexico, Arizona, southern California and Texas?

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.

You mean that they'll be brainwashed into thinking that global warming is a myth; that it's socially acceptable and morally responsible to drive a motor vehicle, which can travel only nine miles on one gallon of petrol [I used to have a car, which would do between 50 and 60 mpg!]; and that it's sensible to invade countries, about which the United States knows next-to-nothing, in order to stel their oil (to power the SOBs, which do 9 mpg).

[Incidentally, Rumsfeld was right about Saddam having had chemical weapons. The esteemed former Secretary of "Defense" should have known: afger all, he sold the f***ing things to Mr Hussein, in the first place.

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.

Will this admirable policy apply equally to war criminals and corporate criminals? Where are the oil, defence and drug company bosses- guilty of crimes against millions of people- behind bars?

• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced

You know, you're absolutely right. I blame the education system. Incidentally, it would be more correct to write "They will receive harsher sentences."

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.

I predict that you will have hours of fun, watching the footage on a special far-right TV channel.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.

Ah, excellent! So, no more foreign citizens left to rot for twenty-five years, on death row. How very humane of you.

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.

Many former DEA agents, who spent their careers enforcing "tough" policies on drugs, believe that the "war on drugs" is futile and that prohibition only leads to more crime. I should have thought that a great libertarian would have allowed people to decide for themselves what they wanted to smoke, snort or inject. [I've never even smoked a ciggie and I'm totally opposed to drugs- especially of the improperly tested and licensed prescription kind.

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.

So, you'd end Free Trade. Jolly Good. I can't wait to see the end of Globalism ["the new name for American Capitalist Imperialism"].

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.

But what about protecting the jobs of Americans? A tad inconsistent.

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.

I can't argue with that. BING- ONE POINT.

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…

Health promotion- first rate. Free condoms and sex education for all. Hey, maybe there's a bit of liberal in you [no double entendre intended].

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.

What's that, boy? Complete Gibberish! Have you learned nothing in this role-playing game? Write 100 times, "We would like to lead the World". Got that?

Sorry, actually I forgot a bit at the end. Ahem. The last two words should be "... in education".

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.

And that is different0 how? [Apologies for the "Mexican" word order, there. It wasn't deliberate or anything.]

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.

You're a Green too? This is great!

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

So, no more intervention in the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, Latin America, Taiwan, Israel? It's as if President Hoover has been brought back to life.

[He was a much maligned man. When he was replaced in 1932, it was murder for the cleaners to roosevelt the oval office. It just never picked up crumbs, in the same way. Probably because of the old bag that was attached to the Roosevelt.]

So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

They are a contradiction in terms. You surely mean "American interests".

[PS I know it was all a game. Was the party in question Austrian, Polish or French?]

So the part about abortion...right?

Sorry, my mistake. I was under the impression that I might've missed something, so you had valid, unbiased reasoning behind your assertions. Again, my mistake.
It's okay, honey, the mean nasty vaginas won't bite you. You don't have to be so scared of them. :D

OMG you silly people, this is pretty much what America is - just written in a delightfully sarcastic manner!
Well done, Edwinasia.

OMG you silly people, this is pretty much what America is - just written in a delightfully sarcastic manner!
Well done, Edwinasia.

Hey hey, second post and in with the silly! I applaude your bravery. Ohh and welcome.:D

You may not be a Nazi, but these are the main points of VB, along with the seperation from Wallonia. Points which your post here show that you agree with.

Of course, if that's (the separatist aspect) the only thing keeping you from voting for them, you might as well call yourself a supporter.


I like it that the trains are on time. Am I now a Mussolini adept?
I think no one should kill another. Am I Christian now?
I like my girlfriend her strings. Do I wear them now?

I hope you're just still a teenager, else it would be sad to have such silly prejudices and making such ill correlations.

First of all, you just read what you want to read.

Smart people see more:

Hello no I'm not a Nazi and I have not one tattoo.

And yes it bothers me that I do not recognize my country anymore.

20 years ago, there were almost no beggars in the streets of Antwerp. Now you see plenty of them. 75% are veiled women with a borrowed baby. Yes borrowed!

20 years ago it was safe to walk around at night in Antwerp.
This year I'm attacked 3 times. Each time by Arabs.

My girlfriend is almost raped by a cab driver. Again an Arab.

If you walked 20 years ago in the Nieuwstraat of Brussels, you were walking in a Western street. Now, over 50% is Muslim now. And most girls of Arabian origin are wearing a veil. I don’t like that symbol of pure women-suppression.

Demographic calculation predict (and those are rather precise) that around 2030 over 50% of the citizen in the major cities in Holland and Belgium will be Muslim.

Sorry, I don't want this. I really don't want that. I still want to live in my country. Not in some Northern Arabian country. And it will be an Arabian country. The democratic majority are in power.

I like it that we are progressive. Are pro abortion and euthanasia. I don't mind same-sex marriages. That and so many other stuff, will be gone. We’ll return to the Dark Ages.

Btw, VB and Arabs don't like these issues. Are all Arabs now a member of the VB or are all VB people Arabs? :)

It's not the fault of the VB that the majority of "small" crimes are committed by Arabs. It's just a fact.

It's not the fault of the VB that the majority of the jailhouse citizens are foreigners. It's just a fact.

If you like foreign criminals that much, open your house, invite the murderers, the rappers and thieves.

I don't like them and yes I think that foreign criminals should return to their home country after their punishment.

That doesn't make me extreme right or a VB guy.

Most countries work like this, including USA:

"Under certain conditions, permanent residence status can be lost. This includes committing a criminal act that makes a person removable from the United States...

...A person who loses their permanent residence is immediately removable from the United States and must leave the U.S. as soon as possible or face deportation and removal. In some cases the person may be banned from entering the country for 3 or 7 years, or even permanently." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Permanent_Resident_Card)

So USA is according your standards also a racist country? (well, lots of people would actually say 'yes')


Hell no, I'm not a racist. You don't know it, but my girlfriend is black...

I didn't say that I am a separatist or that I would like a split-up of Belgium.
You enter those words for me.

You are still a liar. And lazy.

In some former post I compared my personal opinions with those of the 'Amercian Values' party.

It's not cause you share a few points (and even in such cases, the approaches would be still different) that you are an extreme right winged animal....

Kryozerkia,

Again, it are not MY issues but the ones of a party. American Values is a fictive thing, but the issues are directly borrowed from some real European extreme right winged party.

Besides a few silly comments (and you know by yourself that they are silly), you have at least one smart remark that I share with you:

I'm wondering too, like you do, who is going to pay all these candy issues.
The newspapers and other parties here have simular critiques about these ones.

About the slogan 'Own People First'.

Yes, English is not my mother language, but...

"Press Room — Video Feed our own people first"
http://www.go5quebec.ca/en/video_nourrir.php

own
–adjective 2. (used as an intensifier to indicate oneself as the sole agent of some activity or action, prec. by a possessive): He insists on being his own doctor.

Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/own

I will not line per line will write some comment, except one:

Real freedom of speech in USA? I don't think so. I remember US journalists that were fired due writing bad critiques about the Iraq invasion.

I remember the Dixie Chicks...

I remember embedded journalists...

So, no you don't have real Freedom of speech (and no it's not better in Belgium).

No worries. I forgive you all. After all, this is internet and just words. Words could be hard. When I speak to you face to face, you would see fewer spelling errors and I can use mimic, expressions and tone to soften my words. :fluffle:

I don't know about your situation. You're Danish. Blue eyes and blond hair? You are not a Muslim?

In that case, the VB would accept you.

They would rather accept white people born and raised outside Belgium to become Belgian than a guy with North African roots but born and raised INSIDE Belgium.

No, an illegal immigrant is not a criminal, at least not in Belgium.

But it is possible that (s)he performed 'criminal' activities to enter the country. Such as hacking and vandalizing a container.

Illegal immigrants have the opportunity to be legal ones in Belgium. But eh...not easy. I'm not sure but I think that the VB would not accept it.



Reading through your point by point break-down of whether or not you do agree with the program presented, I'll say that it's only because VB is intensely disrespectful of my situation (I was born and grew up in Belgian. I know both languages, but if VB were to come to power, I would have no right to be a Belgian citizen even though I've actually considered dropping my Danish citizenship just to be able to legally call myself Belgian) that I'm probably taking it out on you, seeing as how first impressions have such power over how people view each other.

There may be things we disagree with, but I admit that you do indeed not support VB and I am sorry for the hatred spewed at you. Past few days haven't been too kind on me either :p I do hope you can forgive me though.

So yeah, sorry. First impressions stick... badly.



Isn't an illegal immigrant by definition a criminal, though?

Or would illegal immigrants get the chance to become legal immigrants?

I know, I just don't like it when non-English-speaking people suddenly start discussing in their own language on international websites.


Ok...the majority is speaking Chinese...

Would we go on in that language?

And according some source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers) Spanish, Arabic and Hindi are spoken more than English...

I was surprised about the ranking of Dutch: 40th place in the world. That's not bad...

Some languages that are behind Dutch:

Greek, Swedish, Hebrew, Danish and Waray-Waray

The 'values' are derived from a real Belgian party.
But almost any extreme right party could be used as a model.

Look for yourself and visit the websites of some extreme right parties.

It's so 'funny' (well it is not funny for real), only the label of their party is different, the topics are almost the same.

I changed almost nothing. I had to 'Americanize' a few issues, else the people would have no clue.




• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.

This is completely illogical. America IS a nation of foreigners. How far do you want to take it? Are you going to chuck out the Swedes, Germans, Irish and leave only those, who can prove that they had at least one ancestor, resident in the Thirteen Colonies in 1783?

• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.

OK, then. You have gonorrhea and like having sex with your brother and sister.

• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia

So, lots of teenage girls will go to Canada (of they have a little bit of money) or to some HIV-infested knitting-needle parlour in a back alley (if they have none).
It's wrong to encourage abortion but the alternative is much worse. Education and incentives are the answer, not turning the Mid West into an extension of the Vatican.

• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.

If immigration is restricted to the "needs of the state", then there will be no change because you have always demanded that people of another race wait on you, hand and foot, in actual (or virtual) slavery. This makes you exactly the same as the National Party in South Africa. Apartheid was nonsense for many reasons but the most obvious was that Afrikaners wanted houseboys, maids, window cleaners, bin men etc, whom they could pay a pittance.

• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender

So that they can come back, the following week? Are you content to close most shops, restaurants, cinemas etc in New Mexico, Arizona, southern California and Texas?

• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.

You mean that they'll be brainwashed into thinking that global warming is a myth; that it's socially acceptable and morally responsible to drive a motor vehicle, which can travel only nine miles on one gallon of petrol [I used to have a car, which would do between 50 and 60 mpg!]; and that it's sensible to invade countries, about which the United States knows next-to-nothing, in order to stel their oil (to power the SOBs, which do 9 mpg).

[Incidentally, Rumsfeld was right about Saddam having had chemical weapons. The esteemed former Secretary of "Defense" should have known: afger all, he sold the f***ing things to Mr Hussein, in the first place.

• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.

Will this admirable policy apply equally to war criminals and corporate criminals? Where are the oil, defence and drug company bosses- guilty of crimes against millions of people- behind bars?

• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced

You know, you're absolutely right. I blame the education system. Incidentally, it would be more correct to write "They will receive harsher sentences."

• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.

I predict that you will have hours of fun, watching the footage on a special far-right TV channel.

• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.

Ah, excellent! So, no more foreign citizens left to rot for twenty-five years, on death row. How very humane of you.

• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.

Many former DEA agents, who spent their careers enforcing "tough" policies on drugs, believe that the "war on drugs" is futile and that prohibition only leads to more crime. I should have thought that a great libertarian would have allowed people to decide for themselves what they wanted to smoke, snort or inject. [I've never even smoked a ciggie and I'm totally opposed to drugs- especially of the improperly tested and licensed prescription kind.

• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.

So, you'd end Free Trade. Jolly Good. I can't wait to see the end of Globalism ["the new name for American Capitalist Imperialism"].

• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.

But what about protecting the jobs of Americans? A tad inconsistent.

• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.

I can't argue with that. BING- ONE POINT.

• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…

Health promotion- first rate. Free condoms and sex education for all. Hey, maybe there's a bit of liberal in you [no double entendre intended].

• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.

What's that, boy? Complete Gibberish! Have you learned nothing in this role-playing game? Write 100 times, "We would like to lead the World". Got that?

Sorry, actually I forgot a bit at the end. Ahem. The last two words should be "... in education".

• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.

And that is different0 how? [Apologies for the "Mexican" word order, there. It wasn't deliberate or anything.]

• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.

You're a Green too? This is great!

• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.

So, no more intervention in the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, Latin America, Taiwan, Israel? It's as if President Hoover has been brought back to life.

[He was a much maligned man. When he was replaced in 1932, it was murder for the cleaners to roosevelt the oval office. It just never picked up crumbs, in the same way. Probably because of the old bag that was attached to the Roosevelt.]

So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

They are a contradiction in terms. You surely mean "American interests".

[PS I know it was all a game. Was the party in question Austrian, Polish or French?]

And yes it bothers me that I do not recognize my country anymore.

To a person like me this sounds like xenophobia (I'm not saying it is or that you are, it just appears this way to me). Why should it bother you? As a collective species we are evolving and evolution isn't just physical, it's also social and cultural.

20 years ago, there were almost no beggars in the streets of Antwerp. Now you see plenty of them. 75% are veiled women with a borrowed baby. Yes borrowed!

20 years ago there were no beggars in the area I live in yet now we have beggars. All this means is that the population has grown and beggars don't stay in just one area because they will be chased off for loitering.

Uh, pardon me but... "borrowed"?? You have to explain that one, it doesn't make sense to me. I know what borrowed means but not the context you've given in it. It doesn't make sense.

20 years ago it was safe to walk around at night in Antwerp.
This year I'm attacked 3 times. Each time by Arabs.

20 years ago it was safe to walk in certain parts of downtown Toronto but now there is a surge in violence. Plenty of news reports of gun-related deaths.

And I will have to challenge you statement about being attacked, why are you sure it was Arabs?

My girlfriend is almost raped by a cab driver. Again an Arab.

Sexual assault is serious, regardless of who did it.

I'm noticing a pattern, you're pointing out the ethnicity of the culprit. This to me indicative of someone who is not accustomed to diversity.

If you walked 20 years ago in the Nieuwstraat of Brussels, you were walking in a Western street. Now, over 50% is Muslim now. And most girls of Arabian origin are wearing a veil. I don’t like that symbol of pure women-suppression.

Ah but it isn't necessarily a symbol of that.

In western nations women have the freedom of choice and when they make the choice to wear it, I don't think that's suppression. It's a choice that they made.

Scripture for Judaism and Christianity have passages stating that women should be veiled but these passages are not followed. Islam isn't the only religion with such a passage, though it is one of the ones where it is actively followed.

Unlike your earlier statements, I see quite a tone of anti-Arab sentiment in this. You may not realise it but to me this seems like you don't like Arabs because they are coming to your country. Quite xenophobic I think.

It's easy to look back 20 years ago and speculate about what was good about then but if we look back to that period it was also tainted by the tensions of the Cold War, women had fewer rights; many minorities were still subject to discrimination. It was only good if you were part of the majority.

Demographic calculation predict (and those are rather precise) that around 2030 over 50% of the citizen in the major cities in Holland and Belgium will be Muslim.

I think... it's by 2015 or something like that, the population of livestock, namely pigs will exceed the total number of humans in Saskatchewan.

I'd be more worried about the animals taking over. ;)


Sorry, I don't want this. I really don't want that. I still want to live in my country. Not in some Northern Arabian country. And it will be an Arabian country. The democratic majority are in power.

I like it that we are progressive. Are pro abortion and euthanasia. I don't mind same-sex marriages. That and so many other stuff, will be gone. We’ll return to the Dark Ages.

*sighs* I'm trying to be nice but the further I got in reading your post the more I found it to be mired with anti-Arab sentiments.

I know you say you're not a Nazi and you're not racist but I am finding it hard to give your word the benefit of the doubt after reading your statements here.

You're anti-immigration and your words pick specifically on the Arabs. You can again say that you're not racist or anything but I'm afraid your words have done you an injustice because they are not reflective of your intended message.

It's not the fault of the VB that the majority of "small" crimes are committed by Arabs. It's just a fact.

It's not the fault of the VB that the majority of the jailhouse citizens are foreigners. It's just a fact.

Facts smacts. Substantiate this with statistics. Government ones.

Further, how can a citizen be a foreigner? They're either a citizen who is foreign-born or a foreigner living in the country but if they are a citizen they cannot be a foreigner.

That's one thing I've learned by being a Canadian my whole life. Just because someone doesn't look like they're from here doesn't mean a thing. Assume you know nothing about them because chances are you don't.

If you like foreign criminals that much, open your house, invite the murderers, the rappers and thieves.

I don't like them and yes I think that foreign criminals should return to their home country after their punishment.

Why pay for them to remain in the nation? Deporting them and barring their re-entry would be far more effective and it wouldn't waste tax payer money, right?


That doesn't make me extreme right or a VB guy.

No it doesn't but your words make you xenophobic IMHO.



Hell no, I'm not a racist. You don't know it, but my girlfriend is black...

Being racist doesn't mean being racist against blacks. It can mean being racist against other groups who aren't black. So your girlfriend's black, all it means is you're not racist against blacks. That doesn't mean you're not possibly racist against other groups.

Again, it are not MY issues but the ones of a party. American Values is a fictive thing, but the issues are directly borrowed from some real European extreme right winged party.

I am aware of that but I wanted to address each point, even thought my comments as you pointed out were silly (and I'm not denying it). I said I wouldn't vote for it. I wanted to break it down with the why.

Besides a few silly comments (and you know by yourself that they are silly), you have at least one smart remark that I share with you:

I'm wondering too, like you do, who is going to pay all these candy issues.
The newspapers and other parties here have simular critiques about these ones.

The reason I was noticing at all and pointing it out is because it's one of the issues in the upcoming Ontario election. There are big promises from the parties but little talk about the funding.

Funding is an important issue especially when there are proposed tax-cuts.

About the slogan 'Own People First'.

Yes, English is not my mother language, but...

"Press Room — Video Feed our own people first"
http://www.go5quebec.ca/en/video_nourrir.php

own
–adjective 2. (used as an intensifier to indicate oneself as the sole agent of some activity or action, prec. by a possessive): He insists on being his own doctor.

Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/own

There is no problem with the meaning of the word. The problem lies with the context. Because this sentence is a fragment, the meaning gets slightly distorted because of it. IE: you have the subject but you lack the predicate, which modifies the verb, which in this case is "own".

It's okay, honey, the mean nasty vaginas won't bite you. You don't have to be so scared of them. :D

Sometimes I think yours might.:D

About the slogan 'Own People First'.

Yes, English is not my mother language, but...

"Press Room — Video Feed our own people first"
http://www.go5quebec.ca/en/video_nourrir.php

own
–adjective 2. (used as an intensifier to indicate oneself as the sole agent of some activity or action, prec. by a possessive): He insists on being his own doctor.

Source:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/own

The problem is that you need a possessive. When used as an adjective it's exactly like the word "propre" in French.

I don't know about your situation. You're Danish. Blue eyes and blond hair? You are not a Muslim?

Minus the blond hair. It's rather brown :p And no, I am more agnostic/atheist. Despite this, I am still a member of the Danish Church... I should really stop paying taxes towards them.

In that case, the VB would accept you.

Not really. I speak danish with my family when I am in Belgium. I do that for the same reason that I speak french to my family when I am in Denmark - people generally don't speak that language and it allows me to have private conversations.

They would rather accept white people born and raised outside Belgium to become Belgian than a guy with North African roots but born and raised INSIDE Belgium.

Yes but... they still wouldn't want me.

No, an illegal immigrant is not a criminal, at least not in Belgium.

Well then there's hardly anything illegal about it, is there? :p

I understand that immigrants are typically the criminals in Belgium and even elsewhere (But, you will notice, in poor countries they usually aren't). However, I don't think this has anything to do with them being foreign or of any specific ethnicity or having a specific religion - It has a lot more to do with their social situation. In a country such as Belgium, people are generally rich. This means that immigrants will generally be poorer. Poorer people, not just immigrants, are more likely to commit acts out of hatred to a society they may feel has abandoned them or in order to feed themselves.

Same thing with beggars. You're not going to beg if you don't need the money, because it is demeaning.


Oh yeah, something which I really hate when danes do it and which I am sure that VBers would do is call the children of immigrants, second-generation immigrants, as opposed to citizens. If they have the local citizenship, speak the local language and generally have the local culture (as well as their own, you can't expect anything else really), then they aren't immigrants anymore. Don't call them second-generation immigrants! It doesn't help to make them feel accepted. I am going to draw a parellel to the nazi regime here: In Germany, the Nazi party could do what they wanted with the Jews, because a large number of people didn't see them as German. In Denmark, people risked their lives to save the Jews, because people considered them friends, neighbours and, most importantly, their own (i.e. Danish).

Kryozerkia,

No, I don’t hate Arabs. Really. Why should I?

Look, Belgium is very small. Our people fought and even died for several rights.

I’m heterosexual but I don’t care if gay people can marry each other.

I never had a need for an abortion, I don’t think (but I’m not sure) I would ever use that right.

For me, it’s a personal choice.

If you think it is murder than don’t do it.
If you think ‘f*ck, I’m 16, I have no money, my school isn’t finished and daddy is an ugly moron guy, I need an abortion now’ then do it.

And this is the same for so many other ethnical issues.

There’s a separation of state and church in my country.

In an Arab country the above would not be true. You could say I’m totally over the moon, but I’m not. Arabian people will be more in number in a few decades. It’s not me who’s saying that…

And when that will happen, our society will change in a direction that I don’t want to.

My country will not be my country anymore.

About the % amounts criminal Foreigners vs. criminal Belgians. Please just go to Google. You’ll find them easily.

Those amounts are more or less the same for the other European countries.

I know it’s political correct to say that those digits are untrue or fake. But I am not like that.

The statement “In Belgium, the majority of small-criminals are from Arabic origin” is true.

But I distinguish from an extreme right party by the definition of this cause.

The ‘American Values’ their reaction would be: “Yes and it so because they are Arabs”

I don’t think like that. I think it’s much more complex. It has to do with poverty, ‘small’ racism in society (Arabs have a harder time to find a job or house), prejudices on both sites (they all say I’m a thief, well I become a thief), macho culture, religion (stealing from a non-Muslim is not real stealing). Their parents came to Belgium 40 years ago and lots of them still can’t speak French or Dutch (that’s common for a first generation), tons of them can’t write or read, so they can’t check their kids like they could do.

And there are so much more other reasons, but I don’t believe it’s cause they are Arabs.

Their veil. Oh yes, it’s pure discrimination. No? Why are their men not wearing a veil?

Read the book “Away with the veil”, written by an Iranian girl….

Did you know that in the entire Koran not is written that women must wear a veil?
Did you know that according our own Christian bible our women must wear that same veil?

And even it was written...

So those Muslims say that they have to follow that religious cookbook literally word for word?

Well, there is also written that they have to go to Mecca once in their life (and if they can afford it). “Nothing new”, you said?

That’s correct, ‘everybody’ knows this. But they have to use a *camel* !!!

Yes. No planes, no trains, boats, cars or whatever. They have to go by a camel!

So, are they doing this? I don’t think so….

You know that Denmark is having stricter rules for immigration than Belgium?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4276963.stm



Minus the blond hair. It's rather brown :p And no, I am more agnostic/atheist. Despite this, I am still a member of the Danish Church... I should really stop paying taxes towards them.



Not really. I speak danish with my family when I am in Belgium. I do that for the same reason that I speak french to my family when I am in Denmark - people generally don't speak that language and it allows me to have private conversations.



Yes but... they still wouldn't want me.



Well then there's hardly anything illegal about it, is there? :p

I understand that immigrants are typically the criminals in Belgium and even elsewhere (But, you will notice, in poor countries they usually aren't). However, I don't think this has anything to do with them being foreign or of any specific ethnicity or having a specific religion - It has a lot more to do with their social situation. In a country such as Belgium, people are generally rich. This means that immigrants will generally be poorer. Poorer people, not just immigrants, are more likely to commit acts out of hatred to a society they may feel has abandoned them or in order to feed themselves.

Same thing with beggars. You're not going to beg if you don't need the money, because it is demeaning.


Oh yeah, something which I really hate when danes do it and which I am sure that VBers would do is call the children of immigrants, second-generation immigrants, as opposed to citizens. If they have the local citizenship, speak the local language and generally have the local culture (as well as their own, you can't expect anything else really), then they aren't immigrants anymore. Don't call them second-generation immigrants! It doesn't help to make them feel accepted. I am going to draw a parellel to the nazi regime here: In Germany, the Nazi party could do what they wanted with the Jews, because a large number of people didn't see them as German. In Denmark, people risked their lives to save the Jews, because people considered them friends, neighbours and, most importantly, their own (i.e. Danish).

Kryozerkia,

Are you aware, that when I would say this IRL to a few Muslims, that they at least would fight with me?

When I'm unlucky they would kill me.

And that's for just an opinion.

Theo Van Gogh, a Dutch director was killed by some scr*wed Muslim.

Why? Just because his opinion didn't stroke with the opinion of the Muslim.



Kryozerkia,

No, I don’t hate Arabs. Really. Why should I?

Look, Belgium is very small. Our people fought and even died for several rights.

I’m heterosexual but I don’t care if gay people can marry each other.

I never had a need for an abortion, I don’t think (but I’m not sure) I would ever use that right.

For me, it’s a personal choice.

If you think it is murder than don’t do it.
If you think ‘f*ck, I’m 16, I have no money, my school isn’t finished and daddy is an ugly moron guy, I need an abortion now’ then do it.

And this is the same for so many other ethnical issues.

There’s a separation of state and church in my country.

In an Arab country the above would not be true. You could say I’m totally over the moon, but I’m not. Arabian people will be more in number in a few decades. It’s not me who’s saying that…

And when that will happen, our society will change in a direction that I don’t want to.

My country will not be my country anymore.

About the % amounts criminal Foreigners vs. criminal Belgians. Please just go to Google. You’ll find them easily.

Those amounts are more or less the same for the other European countries.

I know it’s political correct to say that those digits are untrue or fake. But I am not like that.

The statement “In Belgium, the majority of small-criminals are from Arabic origin” is true.

But I distinguish from an extreme right party by the definition of this cause.

The ‘American Values’ their reaction would be: “Yes and it so because they are Arabs”

I don’t think like that. I think it’s much more complex. It has to do with poverty, ‘small’ racism in society (Arabs have a harder time to find a job or house), prejudices on both sites (they all say I’m a thief, well I become a thief), macho culture, religion (stealing from a non-Muslim is not real stealing). Their parents came to Belgium 40 years ago and lots of them still can’t speak French or Dutch (that’s common for a first generation), tons of them can’t write or read, so they can’t check their kids like they could do.

And there are so much more other reasons, but I don’t believe it’s cause they are Arabs.

Their veil. Oh yes, it’s pure discrimination. No? Why are their men not wearing a veil?

Read the book “Away with the veil”, written by an Iranian girl….

Did you know that in the entire Koran not is written that women must wear a veil?
Did you know that according our own Christian bible our women must wear that same veil?

And even it was written...

So those Muslims say that they have to follow that religious cookbook literally word for word?

Well, there is also written that they have to go to Mecca once in their life (and if they can afford it). “Nothing new”, you said?

That’s correct, ‘everybody’ knows this. But they have to use a *camel* !!!

Yes. No planes, no trains, boats, cars or whatever. They have to go by a camel!

So, are they doing this? I don’t think so….

You know that Denmark is having stricter rules for immigration than Belgium?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4276963.stm

I am aware of that.

Don't for one second believe that I agree with it, however.

Talk about a landslide vote against your party.

No, I don’t hate Arabs. Really. Why should I?

I will concede I know little about you so all I have to go on is what you've written here and I think I may have interpreted your writing in a way you never intended for it to be interpreted. But that's the way the cookie crumbles. You may have one meaning but I see another.

It boils down to what is culturally normal for each of us doesn't it?

Being in Canada, I see your words as the words of someone who doesn't favour immigration and is xenophobic, even if you aren't. It is simply because of the way you've expressed yourself.

There is no reason why you should but you have to realise that the written word is very powerful and even if you don't actually mean for your word have more than one meaning, to the reader it may very well be something else.

Look, Belgium is very small. Our people fought and even died for several rights.

It's also a very nice country. The Market Square in Brussels is quite striking. I was there during the summer festival. :)

People fought and died for their rights here in Canada as well.

They have in other nations as well. Some listened some don't.

I’m heterosexual but I don’t care if gay people can marry each other.

Good, why should only heterosexuals be the only miserable ones in the world? ;)


I never had a need for an abortion, I don’t think (but I’m not sure) I would ever use that right.

Personal choice.

For me, it’s a personal choice.

Believing in personal choice is a good virtue.

If you think it is murder than don’t do it.
If you think ‘f*ck, I’m 16, I have no money, my school isn’t finished and daddy is an ugly moron guy, I need an abortion now’ then do it.

Well that's one reason but there are many others, possible a hell of a lot less shallow than that.

And this is the same for so many other ethnical issues.

Freedom to choose. Freedom to succeed. Freedom to fail.

There’s a separation of state and church in my country.

The line is fragile. It can be easily shattered by people with no concept of 'choice'; by people who believe in the moral majority.

Or by delusional people who think they know better but they really don't.

In an Arab country the above would not be true. You could say I’m totally over the moon, but I’m not. Arabian people will be more in number in a few decades. It’s not me who’s saying that…

Yes many Arab countries do not fit the above descriptions pertaining to personal freedom. Though Turkey would be the general exception as it is a secular republic.

In a few decades the generations born in your country will act like their peers and less like their own ethnic communities. The lines will blur. Yes they may be more in their numbers but you cannot assume that their attitudes will be the same as the previous generations.

And when that will happen, our society will change in a direction that I don’t want to.

My country will not be my country anymore.

Think for a moment. Do you think that 20+ years ago people had the liberal attitudes they do today?

Many western and liberal nations weren't so welcoming of concepts such as gay marriage or even welcoming of the idea of gays in general. The thought that gays were normal people was not common.

The older generation likely frowned heavily upon many of the social changes taking place. After all, many were engrained with socially traditional attitudes. They wanted to resist the changes.

You're not undergoing the same thing. You're obviously comfortable with the status quo.

A branch that does not yield to the wind will break.

About the % amounts criminal Foreigners vs. criminal Belgians. Please just go to Google. You’ll find them easily.

Ah but you asserted that these were FACTS. You should be prepared to back up your claims here on NSG or risk having it being called baseless conjecture.

Those amounts are more or less the same for the other European countries.

Your basis for this is...?

The statement “In Belgium, the majority of small-criminals are from Arabic origin” is true.

Ok, I'll humour you on this...

But I distinguish from an extreme right party by the definition of this cause.

The ‘American Values’ their reaction would be: “Yes and it so because they are Arabs”

I don’t think like that. I think it’s much more complex. It has to do with poverty, ‘small’ racism in society (Arabs have a harder time to find a job or house), prejudices on both sites (they all say I’m a thief, well I become a thief), macho culture, religion (stealing from a non-Muslim is not real stealing). Their parents came to Belgium 40 years ago and lots of them still can’t speak French or Dutch (that’s common for a first generation), tons of them can’t write or read, so they can’t check their kids like they could do.

And there are so much more other reasons, but I don’t believe it’s cause they are Arabs.

Ok, you get a couple of points for being able to provide a somewhat thoughtful response. Though some of your points can be easily applied to others who do commit small crimes as well.

The 'small' racism (or discrimination) as well as the pre-existing attitudes and prejudices.

Their veil. Oh yes, it’s pure discrimination. No? Why are their men not wearing a veil?

I believe that women in western nations who wear the veil are making their own choices in that respect. I doubt I can say the same about those where it is mandatory.

It is perhaps sexist when it's forcefully required. When there is choice I wouldn't say it's sexist because the woman made the choice. Would you agree? Coming back to the idea of freedom of choice.

Do you not also agree that discrimination exists against men in western society that probably isn't found in the Arab world? Affirmative action is one that comes to mind, where women are favoured for men over certain jobs and positions in order to fulfil quotas.

Read the book “Away with the veil”, written by an Iranian girl….

I have been looking for a new book to read.

Did you know that in the entire Koran not is written that women must wear a veil?
Did you know that according our own Christian bible our women must wear that same veil?

Yes to both.

However, in the Qu'ran it does implore that both sexes exercise modesty.

And even it was written...

So those Muslims say that they have to follow that religious cookbook literally word for word?

Well, there is also written that they have to go to Mecca once in their life (and if they can afford it). “Nothing new”, you said?

There are many fundamentalist Christians and Jews who take their scriptures more than literally so Muslims aren't the only ones.

For the pilgrimage to Makkah, the person must also be in good health. Those unable to travel are not punish.

That’s correct, ‘everybody’ knows this. But they have to use a *camel* !!!

Yes. No planes, no trains, boats, cars or whatever. They have to go by a camel!

Uhm... and the problem with having to ride a camel is...?

Kryozerkia,

Are you aware, that when I would say this IRL to a few Muslims, that they at least would fight with me?

When I'm unlucky they would kill me.

And that's for just an opinion.

Theo Van Gogh, a Dutch director was killed by some scr*wed Muslim.

Why? Just because his opinion didn't stroke with the opinion of the Muslim.

I don't know what kind of Muslims and Arabs you talk to but the ones I know are quite reasonable, with one being my best friend of 11 years. And he has zero issue with me being the asshole-Atheist I am.

Yes there are crackpots but every religion has one of those. Have you taken a gander at the assortment of loonies that the moral majority/religious right in American is turning out?

I created some fictive party – American Values - and I just want to know if you could vote for this kind of party.

American Values – Own People First!

Our programme:

• A united America for Americans. Americans inside America will always have more rights than foreigners.
• Real freedom of speech: You can say what you want. Even if it is untrue or insulting.
• Abortion is unacceptable and so is euthanasia
• We will close our border. Immigration will be restricted to the needs of the state.
• We will hunt down illegal immigrants and return them to sender
• Foreigners that have a residence in America have to follow ‘America Courses’. They will learn about American history, values and culture.
• Zero tolerance for criminals, big or small. The police department will receive extra funds to win the war on criminality. More blue on the street, instead IN the office. We believe in right & order and a strict punishment system.
• Extra attention for the so called youth criminals. They will be stricter sentenced
• Passive protection of our society by video cameras.
• Foreign criminals will be returned to sender right after their prison time and no excuses. We will take prisoners but not for eternity.
• All hard- and soft drugs are forbidden. ‘Small’ drug users (but not the dealers!) will not be jailed but send mandatory to recovery programmes.
• Extra support for American Companies. We will lower the tax pressure.
• We will weed-out the bureaucracy and restrict the paperwork for the governments, the companies and the civilians to the minimum.
• Healthcare for all Americans. There will be a total-maximum invoice for every American regarding healthcare. Not one American will pay more for its health than this amount.
• Preventive health care actions like vaccinations, we will start up info campaigns about (sexual) decent behaviour, not smoking or drinking, etc…
• We will attack poverty right in its heart: the education. We will refresh the entire education system. We want our leading educational position in the world back.
• English is the language of our nation. The government will use and promote English as the standard language.
• We will create our own ‘Kyoto’ standard. We will fight pollution by rewarding companies and civilians a tax-cut when using green solutions.
• The military will be rebuilt to a Defence Power, rather than an Attack Power. But our enemies will have to think twice when they try to attack our fierce country.


So what do you think of “American Values”? Please vote now!

Disclaimer: The above issues do not necessarily express my own personal opinion. By instance I’m neither a nationalist nor a racist.

It's an experiment. The topics of this party are borrowed from some real European party. I just changed some labels.
I'm interested what Americans (and other people as well) think about this party.

If you assess, take in mind that in real life, you don't agree or disagree with all the issues of any sudden party.

I think it already exists. The party is known as the "Republican
Party".

This thread has long pages.

This thread has long pages.

Flagrant observation. At this point I would like to thank Captain Obvious for joining us here.

Flagrant observation. At this point I would like to thank Captain Obvious for joining us here.I was going to attempt to read along, instead of doing my calculus homework, but the scroll bar shrunk into an infinitely small box, and I said "Fuck that"

You know, I think I've seen something a little bit like this party program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program#The_full_text_of_the_25_point_program) before...

In that case... Godwin on the OP.