NationStates Jolt Archive

Suppose there is some other (real) intelligent life in the universe…

Odds are high it is.

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?

The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?

Now, I have a problem with this one…

In the ‘human’ version of the Bible indicates that humans are created in the image of God, yes?

So what is written in the ‘alien’ version? That those aliens are created in the image of God?

But then we have not an exact copy anymore of the Bible from the same God.

And what about the stories? The alien Bible should have the same silly stories about Babel, Judea, Jesus and stuff…

But how can those aliens know about us? How do they know the names of cities here on Earth?

And should they have interest in such a paper at all? Relax. Suppose someone finds an old document dated 5000 BC about some God his adventures on the planet Plexoria Quantum IV…

Would we take it for real? Or just as some early SF?

*snip*

Remember kiddies, when you're high, you're only funny to other people who are high.

Remember kiddies, when you're high, you're only funny to other people who are high.

Ah, that's the reason why you're not funny to me?

Ah, that's the reason why you're not funny to me?

Heh damn, me are you saying that you where sober when you wrote that?

The OPis operating on the idea that the Bible is the Revealed Word of God (cue thunder) and is therefore perfect and immutable. This is not a logical belief. Most intelligent Christian theists think the Bible is a human account of divine experiences. Consequently, it is not seen as perfect or inerrant.

Ah, that's the reason why you're not funny to me?

Absolutely, but then I'm only let out of my straps a couple hours a day - you seem to be running free :)

Suppose there is some other (real) intelligent life in the universe…

Odds are high it is.

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no? Of course not, they would have knowledge that relates to them. "In my father's house are many mansions."

The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?

Now, I have a problem with this one…

In the ‘human’ version of the Bible indicates that humans are created in the image of God, yes?

So what is written in the ‘alien’ version? That those aliens are created in the image of God?In the spiritual image, yes. Not necessarily the same physically.

But then we have not an exact copy anymore of the Bible from the same God.

And what about the stories? The alien Bible should have the same silly stories about Babel, Judea, Jesus and stuff…

But how can those aliens know about us? How do they know the names of cities here on Earth? No, God would relate to them at their level and with their knowledge.

And should they have interest in such a paper at all? Relax. Suppose someone finds an old document dated 5000 BC about some God his adventures on the planet Plexoria Quantum IV…

Would we take it for real? Or just as some early SF?

It would matter what the point of the story was. Probably most would not accept it as cannon, but some might. Example: The Book of Mormon

The human knowledge of God is not complete and as a child's knowledge grows over time, so does the combined knowledge of God. God relates to all people but not in the same way every time. It is the ego of people that tells them they have the greater knowledge, not God. People who think their scriptures are the only way to relate to God have not studied their own scriptures.

Suppose there is some other (real) intelligent life in the universe…

Odds are high it is.

well we can't say that for certain since we don't know all the variables, but it would appear the likelihood is high.

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?

Um...no. We can't get all the religions to agree on a universal truth. We can't even get different sects within the same religion to agree on the exact meaning of a book that's a translation of a translation of a dead language.

We don't even operate with "the same bible" here on earth, why would a species, whose language is different, history is different, and may be so radically different from our own biology as to not be immediatly recognized as life, have the same thing?

The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?

no.

Now, I have a problem with this one…

Just the one?

Heh damn, me are you saying that you where sober when you wrote that?

frightening non?

The pro-God theological answer (yes, this question has been debated seriously):

A race which has been informed of god will have it's own version of the Old Testament. This will inform the believer that God created the universe and all that is in it, and it will give the appropriiate information on how to worship Him. It will have culturally appropriate stories informin the reader of the greatness of God and his Chosen People and showing the appropriate moral lessons to live a godly life.

A race which has been saved will have it's version of the New Testament. This will have a Jesus-figure appear, commit miracles, dispense moral and theological wisdom from on high, die for the sins of this race, and be reborn. Whether or not this is actually Jesus replaying events upon Earth or another "Son of God" is a matter of some question.

Finally, a race may be uninformed, in which case God requires Christianity to be spread among them as among human pagans (using the original meaning of "pagan", one who does not know God, not the modern religion).

An informed species may be saved by becoming Christian, but a saved species should be left to their own true religion, which is their path to salvation.

The Islamic view is somewhat different. Since the Quran is the one, true and ineffable, perfect word of God, Any aliens would either have the exact same Quran or not. If so, they are already muslim, and if not, they are just another bunch of infidels to convert.

Judaism would not expect the presence of the Torah anywhere else. After all, the Jews are the Chosen People, nobody else is.

In the ‘human’ version of the Bible indicates that humans are created in the image of God, yes?

So what is written in the ‘alien’ version? That those aliens are created in the image of God?

Could also be that humans are created in the image of God, and that they are not.

I also once read a nice scifi story about this. In it earth is invaded by aliens, who seem to be aided by miracles (rockets that humans fire at them tend to malfunction and so on). A priest discovers that the reason for this is that God has a new chosen people: the aliens in question. One He actually speaks to directly and has instructed to wipe out his earlier mistake - i.e. us.

I think it'd be more interesting if they weren't exactly the same.

For instance, what if their Jesus busted out of jail, kicked some Roman ass and set up shop in the Temple, living to be an old man before beaming up?

What if He was fond of mud and groin kicks? :)

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?


No


The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?


No

I think it'd be more interesting if they weren't exactly the same.

For instance, what if their Jesus busted out of jail, kicked some Roman ass and set up shop in the Temple, living to be an old man before beaming up?

What if He was fond of mud and groin kicks? Alien Jesus is a crafty, crafty sunuvabitch. He also carried loaded dice and ran a gambling ring instead of collecting donations.

I think it'd be more interesting if they weren't exactly the same.

For instance, what if their Jesus busted out of jail, kicked some Roman ass and set up shop in the Temple, living to be an old man before beaming up?

What if He was fond of mud and groin kicks? :)

I heard the aliens got our story of Jesus, and the sequal! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k4ZzWiTWA0k)

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/1294/chucknorris9mm.jpg

Well now you've done it, Smunkee; You have used Chuck Norris in a clever and original way. We're screwed now. :(

I think it'd be more interesting if they weren't exactly the same.

For instance, what if their Jesus busted out of jail, kicked some Roman ass and set up shop in the Temple, living to be an old man before beaming up?

What if He was fond of mud and groin kicks? :)

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/1294/chucknorris9mm.jpg

Suppose there is some other (real) intelligent life in the universe…

Odds are high it is.

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?

Odds are very low. Why would they have the same mythology as us?

The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?

Please define the terms, as I don't comprehend "the word of god".

In the ‘human’ version of the Bible indicates that humans are created in the image of God, yes?

Again with an incomprehensible word - what's "god"?

So what is written in the ‘alien’ version? That those aliens are created in the image of God?

And again with that word "god"...

But then we have not an exact copy anymore of the Bible from the same God.

And again with that undefined term "god"...

And what about the stories? The alien Bible should have the same silly stories about Babel, Judea, Jesus and stuff…

That assumes far too much. Again, why would an alien intelligence have one single small part of Earthly mythology?

But how can those aliens know about us? How do they know the names of cities here on Earth?

Why would you assume they do?

And should they have interest in such a paper at all? Relax. Suppose someone finds an old document dated 5000 BC about some God his adventures on the planet Plexoria Quantum IV…

Would we take it for real? Or just as some early SF?

Cultural contamination is a more rational explanation than magic.

I heard the aliens got our story of Jesus, and the sequal! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k4ZzWiTWA0k)

Let He who is without sin kick the first ass!

:)

so have we sufficiently destroy the premise of the OP?

should there be life on other planets they would NOT have the same bible. god would reveal himself and his plans to them in whatever way was most appropriate to their circumstances.

while he certainly COULD give them the exact same bible it would be pretty useless to them since they couldnt possibly understand it.

I think it'd be more interesting if they weren't exactly the same.

For instance, what if their Jesus busted out of jail, kicked some Roman ass and set up shop in the Temple, living to be an old man before beaming up?

What if He was fond of mud and groin kicks? :)

Hehheh... :) That'd be much more believable.

Alien Jesus is a crafty, crafty sunuvabitch. He also carried loaded dice and ran a gambling ring instead of collecting donations.

As would this.

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/1294/chucknorris9mm.jpg

LOL. That's the first time in ages that the old Chuck meme's been funny. I'll see your chuck and raise you a Tom...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Billy-jack.jpg

Suppose there is some other (real) intelligent life in the universe…

Odds are high it is.If there is a creator God, then all odds go out the window.

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?If there is a single universal god, and he wanted every sentient being he created to have the same bible, sure.

The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?Possibly, not necessarily. I suppose if I believed the bible, then I'd say yes.

Now, I have a problem with this one…

In the ‘human’ version of the Bible indicates that humans are created in the image of God, yes?that might be interpreted in several ways, like "spiritual image", among others.

So what is written in the ‘alien’ version? That those aliens are created in the image of God?They might look exactly like us, if there's a creator god and he deems that the best shape for them.

But then we have not an exact copy anymore of the Bible from the same God.We could.

And what about the stories? The alien Bible should have the same silly stories about Babel, Judea, Jesus and stuff…Look, we're talking about a god here, if he wanted it so, that other planet could have the exact same history.

But how can those aliens know about us? How do they know the names of cities here on Earth?They wouldn't, they'd know the cities on their planet that are miraculously, by divine intervention, called exactly the same.

And should they have interest in such a paper at all? Relax. Suppose someone finds an old document dated 5000 BC about some God his adventures on the planet Plexoria Quantum IV…

Would we take it for real? Or just as some early SF?Unless there are some facts to back things up, it'd just be considered a story by most people. (There will inevitably be a few that will accept it as gospel)

well we can't say that for certain since we don't know all the variables, but it would appear the likelihood is high.



Um...no. We can't get all the religions to agree on a universal truth. We can't even get different sects within the same religion to agree on the exact meaning of a book that's a translation of a translation of a dead language.

We don't even operate with "the same bible" here on earth, why would a species, whose language is different, history is different, and may be so radically different from our own biology as to not be immediatly recognized as life, have the same thing?



no.



Just the one?

Note: this acts as a reply to other arguments that seem to think that the OP believes, for example, that the Bible IS the same on other planets. (Of course, I might be misinterpreting said posts or even the OP)

It seems to me that the OP is attempting to use a proof by contradiction of sorts-- (s?)he doesn't actually believe that, say, all other aliens would have the same Bible, and is instead using the following argument:
1. Assume the Christian God exists. (Note: I will, for the rest of this, just use "God" to refer to the Christian God exclusively)
2. If there is indeed a God in charge of the whole universe(such as the God in question), then he'd reveal himself to his creations on every planet, if other planets have life.
3. It is probable that other planets have life.
4. The Bible is God's word, and is therefore perfect
5. Therefore, other planets will have the same Bible-- because anything else would be imperfect, and thus not the word of God.
6. Other planets, having different cities/histories/species, will not have the same Bible, because it would be meaningless to them.
7. 4 and 5 are a contradiction.
8. Therefore, premise 1 is incorrect, and God does not exist.

The problem with the argument is that different planets easily could have different Bibles-- each one acting as the history of what God did with that particular planet. It's a fairly weak argument, which is why I prefer to use Biblical Contradictions instead.

What I would be interested, though, in asking Christians is this: would aliens necessarily even be out of their equivalent of Eden? I mean, it seems particularly unfair to kick them out because some race from another planet broke the rules (setting aside, for a moment, my thoughts that it's extremely unfair to punish all humanity for the sins of our ancestors in the first place...)

If so, what would happen if we came across their planet? Would we bring sin with us? And in any event, that implies that not all living things eventually die, (Because, being in their Eden, they don't) and that the laws of the universe vary from place to place at random, based on whether or not the inhabitants have sinned?

Hmmm. Now I've got some stuff to think about! This'll occupy me for some time.

Suppose someone finds an old document dated 5000 BC about some God his adventures on the planet Plexoria Quantum IV…

Would we take it for real?

It would be totally illogical to accept such a document as real since no real artifact from that time would be dated 5000

God literally farts martians all over the universe.

God literally farts martians all over the universe.

Praise Jesus! :)

What if instead of the Bible they have the Popol Vuh word for word, and a Kukulkan and the Sacbé thus showing that the Mayan religion was right all along?

What if instead of the Bible they have the Popol Vuh word for word, and a Kukulkan and the Sacbé thus showing that the Mayan religion was right all along?

now THAT would be a theological crisis!

What aliens?

Is there some kind of invasion going on that I don't know about?

What I would be interested, though, in asking Christians is this: would aliens necessarily even be out of their equivalent of Eden? I mean, it seems particularly unfair to kick them out because some race from another planet broke the rules (setting aside, for a moment, my thoughts that it's extremely unfair to punish all humanity for the sins of our ancestors in the first place...)

If so, what would happen if we came across their planet? Would we bring sin with us? And in any event, that implies that not all living things eventually die, (Because, being in their Eden, they don't) and that the laws of the universe vary from place to place at random, based on whether or not the inhabitants have sinned?


Since I'm not a fundi my answer will only apply to me and not to them.

I see God speaking in parables throughout the Bible. To me the point is important and not the story itself. So I don't think of a literal Eden, but a state of conscientiousness that divides the human animal from the prehuman animal. There came a point in evolution where some prehuman had a child that began to think of right and wrong---good and evil, rather than acting on instinct like the other animals. If the life on another planet advanced to that stage then they came out of their own "Eden". They began to understand that some actions shouldn't be done even though it would be the first instinct to do them.

If we came to their planet and they hadn't advanced to that point, but we were somehow able to teach them, (something I doubt could happen without that light bulb [apple] moment) then yes we would have brought sin to them. But more likely, they would either be more advanced that us or far enough below that such education would be unlikely. I don't think we can teach a dog or pig or cow right from wrong. On the other hand an extremely advanced society would make no effort to teach advanced ethics to the human animal.

What if instead of the Bible they have the Popol Vuh word for word, and a Kukulkan and the Sacbé thus showing that the Mayan religion was right all along?

I haven't read those particular books, but the religions of today are very close in foundation. They have the same foundational ethical standards. God has spoken to them in a way that they understand.

The argument between religions is rarely over the foundation, but what is built on that foundation. In many cases it isn't even what is built on the foundation but the paint on the walls. I used to live among Catholics and Missouri Synod Lutherans. They hated each other with a passion. But the only difference was a nail hole in the door.

I haven't read those particular books, but the religions of today are very close in foundation.How is the foundation of Hinduism close to Christianity? How is the foundation of Buddhism close to Judaism?

The Bible is fiction, so I highly doubt they would have the same exact fictional work as us.

I haven't read those particular books, but the religions of today are very close in foundation. They have the same foundational ethical standards. God has spoken to them in a way that they understand.

Aside from the basic things like "do not kill everyone" most religions with different roots also differ quite a lot where ethics are concerned.

I haven't read those particular books, but the religions of today are very close in foundation. They have the same foundational ethical standards. God has spoken to them in a way that they understand.

The argument between religions is rarely over the foundation, but what is built on that foundation. In many cases it isn't even what is built on the foundation but the paint on the walls. I used to live among Catholics and Missouri Synod Lutherans. They hated each other with a passion. But the only difference was a nail hole in the door.

Christianity isn't the same without uptight elitist assholes...

Aside from the basic things like "do not kill everyone" most religions with different roots also differ quite a lot where ethics are concerned.

Ironically, the largest religions in the world kill everyone anyway.

Ironically, the largest religions in the world kill everyone anyway.

No - that is "kill everyone else". Subtle, but important difference. Especially if you are "else".

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?

if they did, it would be excellent evidence of prior contact of some sort

if they did, it would be excellent evidence of prior contact of some sortYeah, as if an alien species would give a wet fart for alleged events on this planet, let alone in the Levant...

Suppose there is some other (real) intelligent life in the universe…

Odds are high it is.

Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?

The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?

Now, I have a problem with this one…

In the ‘human’ version of the Bible indicates that humans are created in the image of God, yes?

So what is written in the ‘alien’ version? That those aliens are created in the image of God?

But then we have not an exact copy anymore of the Bible from the same God.

And what about the stories? The alien Bible should have the same silly stories about Babel, Judea, Jesus and stuff…

But how can those aliens know about us? How do they know the names of cities here on Earth?

And should they have interest in such a paper at all? Relax. Suppose someone finds an old document dated 5000 BC about some God his adventures on the planet Plexoria Quantum IV…

Would we take it for real? Or just as some early SF?

The general theological context of "the image of God" is that this image is our capacity of self-image; that is, we have the ability to see ourselves in the larger picture of things, the ability to love etc... So indeed aliens could just as well be "created" in the "image" of "God" just as humans are. It's not a physical likeness, but a conceptual likeness of our mental abilities.

Yeah, as if an alien species would give a wet fart for alleged events on this planet, let alone in the Levant...

They probably would. I hardly doubt any species advanced enough to perform interstellar travel will not be interested in their discoveries; generally, those societies would be pretty information based and would see any attempt at gathering knowledge as useful.

They probably would. I hardly doubt any species advanced enough to perform interstellar travel will not be interested in their discoveries; generally, those societies would be pretty information based and would see any attempt at gathering knowledge as useful.

yeah, i'd imagine they'd have entire disciplines of knowledge devoted to the study of alien cultures, religions, histories, etc.

shocking, i know

It would be kind of funny to discover that somewhere, an entire planet believes they are subservient to a species they have never met (because we are made in the image of God, and they are not).

How is the foundation of Hinduism close to Christianity? How is the foundation of Buddhism close to Judaism?

Hindus believe in a one, all-pervasive supreme being who is both immanent and transcendent, both Creator and Unmanifest Reality.

Christians believe in one God in three persons. He is distinct from his creation, yet intimately involved with it as its sustainer and redeemer.

Hindus believe that divine beings exist in unseen worlds and that temple worship, rituals, sacraments as well as personal devotionals create a communion with these devas and Gods.

Christians believe that spirit beings inhabit the universe, some good and some evil, but worship is due to God alone.

Hindus believe that a spiritually awakened master, or satguru, is essential to know the Transcendent Absolute, as are personal discipline, good conduct, purification, pilgrimage, self-inquiry and meditation.

Christians believe that God has given us a clear revelation of Himself in Jesus and the sacred Scriptures. He has empowered by his Spirit prophets, apostles, evangelists, and pastors who are teachers charged to guide us into faith and holiness in accordance with his Word.

Hindus believe that all life is sacred, to be loved and revered, and therefore practice ahimsa, "noninjury."

Christians believe that life is to be highly esteemed but that it must be subordinated in the service of Biblical love and justice.

Hindus believe religious paths are facets of God's Pure Love and Light, deserving tolerance and understanding.

Christians believe Jesus (the love of God) is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Judaism and Buddhist

http://www.thubtenchodron.org/InterreligiousDialogue/reflections_of_a_jewish_buddhist.html

They both emphasize acting ethically and helping to others

Each teaches respect for one's spiritual teachers. Both emphasize that actions have consequences, but that errors can be purified or atoned for.

Jews have the Ten Commandments and the 613 mitzvoth. Buddhists have the ten destructive actions, the five heinous actions, and the five precepts.

"Be helpful to others. If you can't help, at least don't harm them." vs. "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Christians believe that life is to be highly esteemed but that it must be subordinated in the service of Biblical love and justice.

This is the only part I take issue with. Life is not subordinated to love of the Bible but love of God. You might have meant Biblical in the sense, "it comes up in the Bible," but the way it's written now makes it appear that Christians actually have love for a book.

I'm not Hindu or Jewish, so I can't claim the truth of the rest, but it looks good. It's an interesting juxtaposition.

No



No

Xenophobe. *razzberry*

Haven't y'all caught The X-Files, "The Sixth Extinction"?

Suppose there is some other (real) intelligent life in the universe…
Odds are high it is.
Then they would have exactly the same Bible, as we humans have here, no?
The Bible is written by humans and/or aliens, but it’s still the word of God, no?



You... seriously think that aliens would show up professing Christianity and reading the Bible?

I'm thinking one of the following scenarios is more likely:

Aliens-- "Wait, you mean to tell us some of your people sincerely believe your species was created out of dirt, six thousand years ago, by the hand of a divine being that watches you and judges you and condemns some behaviours and expects you to blindly believe in it without offering any concrete proof? {aliens look at each other} HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry, we're going to have to conquer you now. It's for your own good. Oh, wait-- HAHA-- no, wait, tell you what: it's the wiiiiiiill of your Gooooooood! HAHAHA!"

or

Aliens-- "God? Yes, of course-- despite our knowledge of what you call the 'big bang' and cosmology and biological evolution, our advanced science never could adequately explain 'why' the universe began, so we attribute that to a mysterious force that we consider divine. ... Wait, what? You think it's watching you... and speaks to you and hands down rules and came to Earth as one of you? {aliens look at each other... snicker} I'm sorry, we have to be going now. Good luck. {aliens fly away laughing hysterically and taking bets on how long we'll last}

or

Aliens-- "Sorry for messing with you, that was us all along. We thought that in your ignorance, you superstitious monkeys could use a little ethical guidance. But things have gone sour with all the religious fighting and oppression and stuff, so we decided to come down and tell you it's time to grow up and start thinking rationally for yourselves and shake off your metaphysical delusions. No supreme being is watching you or judging you, at least not that we've found any proof of. There's you, and there's us, and there's probably more life out there but that's it, no mystical beings. Now here are some of our science textbooks for you to start studying, there'll be a quiz on Friday and then we'll decide if you people are still worth dealing with."

or

Aliens-- "God-- yes, there is only one God: OUR God-- Jambor'k'zinkhu-- and She has commanded that we should conquer all that we survey and slaughter your puny kind to the last female and calf!"

However, the idea that beings from another world-- who've survived through their history to the point of social and technological sophistication to develop interstellar travel-- would land professing a religion that's so particular to the context of human history (and pre-history) is just beyond silly.

Since I'm not a fundi my answer will only apply to me and not to them.

I see God speaking in parables throughout the Bible. To me the point is important and not the story itself. So I don't think of a literal Eden, but a state of conscientiousness that divides the human animal from the prehuman animal. There came a point in evolution where some prehuman had a child that began to think of right and wrong---good and evil, rather than acting on instinct like the other animals. If the life on another planet advanced to that stage then they came out of their own "Eden". They began to understand that some actions shouldn't be done even though it would be the first instinct to do them.

If we came to their planet and they hadn't advanced to that point, but we were somehow able to teach them, (something I doubt could happen without that light bulb [apple] moment) then yes we would have brought sin to them. But more likely, they would either be more advanced that us or far enough below that such education would be unlikely. I don't think we can teach a dog or pig or cow right from wrong. On the other hand an extremely advanced society would make no effort to teach advanced ethics to the human animal.

Interesting. Though I have to ask, what do the parables where God says to kill all the men, women, and children in the city, except the virgin girls to "keep for yourselves" (and let's not kid ourselves, that means rape) mean? I've always wondered that.