NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?

Now let's get something straight here, I'm an atheist and damn proud of it. I am vehemently against school prayer and having "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.

But at this point in time, schools aren't secular, they just are aimed at not offending minority religions. And I think that sucks. We need to stop trying to take away Christmas trees from the guidance councilor's office while at the same time banning everyone from doing something significant on Jewish holidays, and for fuck's sake, they have an all-Muslim public school in New York now?!

And while I'm on Christmas, let me say, I do celebrate Christmas. I think it's a great holiday, I like all of the general traditions that go with it, I just don't associate it with Christianity.

But back on topic, I'd like to stop seeing public school systems that claim to be secular when really they just are P.C.

They have an all muslim public school now? Isn't that kind of antithetical to the whole Public School idea?

There's no "Muslim public school." There's a non-religious public school that teaches Arabic language and culture.

They have an all muslim public school now? Isn't that kind of antithetical to the whole Public School idea?
An all Muslim public school is the antithesis of public schooling for so many fucking reasons.

They also have an all-gay school (the Harvey Milk school), an all Chinese school, and various different magnet schools that specialize in medical, law, television and radio, et cetera.

Let's be fair -- they've got special schools for all kinds of students.

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?
First of all, the date something is assigned is left to the teachers, not the administration.
Second of all, there is a difference between not assigning something because you know a significant number have a fairly major conflict and placing a religious symbol up. To compare the two fails.

But at this point in time, schools aren't secular, they just are aimed at not offending minority religions. And I think that sucks. We need to stop trying to take away Christmas trees from the guidance councilor's office while at the same time banning everyone from doing something significant on Jewish holidays,see above. Unrelated issues.
and for fuck's sake, they have an all-Muslim public school in New York now?!Um...I'd like to see some kind of documentation of this...

And while I'm on Christmas, let me say, I do celebrate Christmas. I think it's a great holiday, I like all of the general traditions that go with it, I just don't associate it with Christianity. That's nice. It is still a Christian holiday.

Typical result of political correctness created by secular-progressives who are really just full of bullshit. I don't see an all-white school or an all-Christian school.

There's no "Muslim public school." There's a non-religious public school that teaches Arabic language and culture.

Officially. Anyone who isn't 100% naive knows the religious bias that occurs there.

Typical result of political correctness created by secular-progressives who are really just full of bullshit. I don't see an all-white school or an all-Christian school.

Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Texas Christian University, Southern Methodist University...

Officially. Anyone who isn't 100% naive knows the religious bias that occurs there.

Really? Tell me about it.

Jesus,*the preemptive war on the war on Christmas comes earlier every year.

Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Texas Christian University, Southern Methodist University...

Those are private universities, not public elementary schools.

Officially. Anyone who isn't 100% naive knows the religious bias that occurs there.

Really? Considering that the school has only been in existence for thirteen days?

Wow. Amazing with those prognostication skills.

Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Texas Christian University, Southern Methodist University...

Those are not by definition "all-Christian" or "all-white" and are all private institutions.

If any other religious group's religious practice interferes with their capability to do homework over a holiday, accommodations should be made for them too--majority, minority, whatever.

But religious symbols should not be present in public schools.

Those are not by definition "all-Christian" or "all-white" and are all private institutions.

Elementary, middle, and high school I went to were all three all white. They were also all Christian.

Yay for diversity in rural America.

http://www.exodusnetwork.com/exodus2/school/SearchSchool.asp

:p

Those are not public schools either. They are private, parochial schools.

Those are private universities, not public elementary schools.

http://www.exodusnetwork.com/exodus2/school/SearchSchool.asp

:p

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?

Your school does not equal all public schools. In my school they set up a Christmas tree, a menorah, a Kwanzaa menorah, etc.

Students are wished the best on all the holidays coming up -- a blessed Ramadan, a Merry Christmas, a sweet new year, and a cool yule.

http://www.exodusnetwork.com/exodus2/school/SearchSchool.asp

:p

that search seems to bring up private schools in my area.

Some of you are not from USAmerica so let me explain

public schools here are government schools

private schools here are not government schools.

Elementary, middle, and high school I went to were all three all white. They were also all Christian.

Yay for diversity in rural America.

were they purposely that way? did they turn away brown kids and atheists?

Officially. Anyone who isn't 100% naive knows the religious bias that occurs there.
Prove it. Please.
Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Texas Christian University, Southern Methodist University...

None are all white, most aren't all Christian, all are private.

Here's the kicker though. Do teachers assign homework on Christmas or Easter?

What's that? No?

Then I'll consider the matter settled.

What happens when you have a public school system that caters to an All-WASP demographics?

Kansas Board of Education.

Case closed.

They also have an all-gay school (the Harvey Milk school), an all Chinese school, and various different magnet schools that specialize in medical, law, television and radio, et cetera.

Let's be fair -- they've got special schools for all kinds of students.

Wow - separate but equal. MLK Jr. would cry.

I've never heard of a school not assigning homework over any holiday that wasn't three days long or less. I'm at a Catholic university and Easter isn't sanctuary from homework. The OP doth protest too much, methinks.

Most ( not all ) public schools suck! You don't see Micheal Moores kid at no shitty public school.. did any of the Kennedys go to one? Well if they did .. it was for public relations.

-I take all the risks and you take all the money-

If any other religious group's religious practice interferes with their capability to do homework over a holiday, accommodations should be made for them too--majority, minority, whatever.

But religious symbols should not be present in public schools.

Heaven forbid our children see a Koran and they convert on the spot, or a star of David - or a cross. We need to protect them all - not even let them talk about it. We should re-rout all school busses so the don't drive past any religions institutions while transporting our malleable young minds.

Or - just maybe - we should embrace diversity of all kinds - racial or religious - and allow people to express themselves freely whereever they wish - and most particularly in public places.

Heaven forbid our children see a Koran and they convert on the spot, or a star of David - or a cross. We need to protect them all - not even let them talk about it. We should re-rout all school busses so the don't drive past any religions institutions while transporting our malleable young minds.

Or - just maybe - we should embrace diversity of all kinds - racial or religious - and allow people to express themselves freely whereever they wish - and most particularly in public places.

Yeah, the slippery slope is a fallacy here.

and allow people to express themselves freely whereever they wish

School-sponsored symbols of religious holidays are quite a bit beyond "free expression."

Wow - separate but equal. MLK Jr. would cry.

Yeah, maybe he would if they were FORCED into those schools because of their backgrounds. Anyone can choose to go to them, regardless of their backgrounds.

Kneejerk comment FTL.

School-sponsored symbols of religious holidays are quite a bit beyond "free expression."

Why? Is School sponsored St. Patrick's Day racially culturally exclusive? Black History Month? Chinese New Year?

No?

Then why should a religious cultural occasion be any different?

It is just as harmful to children to not educate them about the religious cultures of their neighbors as it would be to not educate them about the ethnic cultures of their neighbors.

I would much rather my child go to a school where there are menorahs, Christmas and Ramadan than one where there is an awkward hush during these occasions. I would be thrilled if my child asked my why we don't celebrate Hanukkah after hearing about it in his multi-cultural school.

Yeah, maybe he would if they were FORCED into those schools because of their backgrounds. Anyone can choose to go to them, regardless of their backgrounds.

Kneejerk comment FTL.

Riiiight. Nobody is getting excluded there... :rolleyes:

"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.... Right after they are excused from their specialized and completely optional culturally exclusive schools - except for the sons of former slave owners who don't get a specialized option because that would be racist."

Your school does not equal all public schools. In my school they set up a Christmas tree, a menorah, a Kwanzaa menorah, etc.

Students are wished the best on all the holidays coming up -- a blessed Ramadan, a Merry Christmas, a sweet new year, and a cool yule.

They actually recognize Yule?

Ok your school is AWESOME! :D

Heaven forbid our children see a Koran and they convert on the spot, or a star of David - or a cross. We need to protect them all - not even let them talk about it. We should re-rout all school busses so the don't drive past any religions institutions while transporting our malleable young minds.

Or - just maybe - we should embrace diversity of all kinds - racial or religious - and allow people to express themselves freely whereever they wish - and most particularly in public places.
Students can do whatever they want. Teachers and administrators are agents of the state, and are thereby expected to remain neutral on religious issues. We can freely discuss them at any time, display a cross for an educational purpose, that kinda thing. But no, your strawman fails.
Why? Is School sponsored St. Patrick's Day racially culturally exclusive? Black History Month? Chinese New Year?

No?

Then why should a religious cultural occasion be any different?

It is just as harmful to children to not educate them about the religious cultures of their neighbors as it would be to not educate them about the ethnic cultures of their neighbors.

I would much rather my child go to a school where there are menorahs, Christmas and Ramadan than one where there is an awkward hush during these occasions. I would be thrilled if my child asked my why we don't celebrate Hanukkah after hearing about it in his multi-cultural school.you CAN educate them. Please, learn what the law ACTUALLY says, not what you wish to think it says. I can teach my students about Ramadan, Christmas, Chanukkah, Yule, Saturnalia...you name it, I can teach about it. But I cannot teach any of it as "truth". I can present facts. That is all a teacher ever should do. By displaying a Christmas tree, I promote that religion above the others.

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?

Now let's get something straight here, I'm an atheist and damn proud of it. I am vehemently against school prayer and having "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.

But at this point in time, schools aren't secular, they just are aimed at not offending minority religions. And I think that sucks. We need to stop trying to take away Christmas trees from the guidance councilor's office while at the same time banning everyone from doing something significant on Jewish holidays, and for fuck's sake, they have an all-Muslim public school in New York now?!

And while I'm on Christmas, let me say, I do celebrate Christmas. I think it's a great holiday, I like all of the general traditions that go with it, I just don't associate it with Christianity.

But back on topic, I'd like to stop seeing public school systems that claim to be secular when really they just are P.C.

I think you are lying about that, I think you're another Christian fundie and you put that sentence in to get a semblance of authority to the rest of your OP, which is profoundly bigoted. If you really were an atheist you'd realize how reactionary and intolerant all religions are, and whether they are minorities or not is immaterial, and you wouldn't defend them.

They also have an all-gay school (the Harvey Milk school), an all Chinese school, and various different magnet schools that specialize in medical, law, television and radio, et cetera.

Let's be fair -- they've got special schools for all kinds of students. but are those public or private schools? And do those public schools actually refuse entry because the student isn't Chinese, Gay, etc...

Here's the kicker though. Do teachers assign homework on Christmas or Easter?

What's that? No?

Then I'll consider the matter settled. actually.. yes. I got homework assigned over Christmas Break, Easter weekends, etc...

heck, I had reading lists to do over Summer Vacation.

Shouldn't we worry about more important topics at hand, such as kids failing school? I could give a shit whether holidays are celebrated so long as kids are getting the best education they can get.

Students can do whatever they want. Teachers and administrators are agents of the state, and are thereby expected to remain neutral on religious issues.
neutral is not the same as neuter.


you CAN educate them. Please, learn what the law ACTUALLY says, not what you wish to think it says. I can teach my students about Ramadan, Christmas, Chanukkah, Yule, Saturnalia...you name it, I can teach about it. But I cannot teach any of it as "truth". I can present facts. That is all a teacher ever should do.
There is no evidence that displaying a menorah or singing a Christmas carol is anything close to a factual endorsement; Singing "London Bridges" is certainly not considered homage to the queen. It also is a FACT that teachers all come with different religions - to expect them to suppress their religion is just as wrong as expecting them to suppress their race. I would be quite pleased if a Muslim teacher taught my children about the foundations of his faith as a cultural lesson. He could say he believes it to be fact and he could even celebrate Ramadan with the class. Sharing is not the same as proselytizing. There would be no tests - no affirmations of faith - just an understanding of muslim culture the same as if he taught them his Brazilian culture. If my kids got this each year from a new teacher with new faiths, race and culture then their education experience would be vastly superior to the sterile environment where teachers are neutered of their faith at the school gate.
Regardless of how you INTERPRET the law - it does not make it the final word on what is morally correct. There have been plenty of laws found to be morally flawed and there will be plenty more...

By displaying a Christmas tree, I promote that religion above the others.
So then you also do not display Mexican Flags on Cinco de Mayo, nor Clovers on St. Patricks day, nor anything relevant to black history month. Because to do so would certainly also promote those ethnicities and cultures above the others...

but are those public or private schools? And do those public schools actually refuse entry because the student isn't Chinese, Gay, etc...

actually.. yes. I got homework assigned over Christmas Break, Easter weekends, etc...

heck, I had reading lists to do over Summer Vacation.

the difference is that this is a specific date. An assignment given at the beginning of Winter Break does not need to be done on Christmas. Homework given the night of Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur does need to be turned in the next day.

What happens when you have a public school system that caters to an All-WASP demographics?

Kansas Board of Education.

Case closed.
First, look at my location.

Now, here is how I reacted.

First, it was, "Hey, he mentioned Kansas! That's the best state in the U.S. WASP? Hey, I'm half WASP!"
Then it was "Wait a sec, he's INSULTING Kansas, the best damn state in the U.S. Why, I oughta give him a piece of my mind pie, with some topping of vulgarity."
And finally, "Well, y'know, he's right. The Kansas Board of Education does suck crap-balls."

But at this point in time, schools aren't secular, they just are aimed at not offending minority religions. And I think that sucks. We need to stop trying to take away Christmas trees from the guidance councilor's office while at the same time banning everyone from doing something significant on Jewish holidays, and for fuck's sake, they have an all-Muslim public school in New York now?!


Hahaha! Thats my old elementary school!

the difference is that this is a specific date. An assignment given at the beginning of Winter Break does not need to be done on Christmas. Homework given the night of Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur does need to be turned in the next day.

However, the point you missed in my reply to Deus Malum, is that yes, during Easter Weekend, Christmas break, even Good Friday, homework is assigned. so his argument that teachers do NOT assign homework during Christmas and Easter fails.

Heck, I even got homework during Thanksgiving and Halloween.

so why are you arguing with me?

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?

Because there is a significant difference between not giving assignments that conflict with many studen'ts private religious beliefs they conduct on their own time, and putting a display of a religious belief on school ground.

One is recognizing that many students have holidays that are not automatically on vacation time, and that since no student ever need to do an assignment on christmas or easter, that to streamline the process to not cause complications.

The other is using public grounds to promote a specific religion.

You need to stay in school kid, at least until you can understand that basic concept.

actually.. yes. I got homework assigned over Christmas Break, Easter weekends, etc...

He didn't say "christmas break" or "easter weekend". When have you ever had an assignment due on christmas day? When have you ever had an assigment due on Easter Sunday?

Not vacation where you had several days to do it, when have you ever had something due on christmas?

However, the point you missed in my reply to Deus Malum, is that yes, during Easter Weekend, Christmas break, even Good Friday, homework is assigned. so his argument that teachers do NOT assign homework during Christmas and Easter fails.

Heck, I even got homework during Thanksgiving and Halloween.

so why are you arguing with me?

would you believe bordem and stress?

Although, not arguing with you...you, I have conversations and discussions with. :)

Why? Is School sponsored St. Patrick's Day racially culturally exclusive?

What kind of "sponsorship"?

He didn't say "christmas break" or "easter weekend". When have you ever had an assignment due on christmas day? When have you ever had an assigment due on Easter Sunday?

Not vacation where you had several days to do it, when have you ever had something due on christmas?
Given the fact that EASTER is on a SUNDAY. there is no School on sunday. so ergo, nothing due. however, the weekend of Easter does have homework given. so if anyone procrastinates, then yes, they have to do homework on Easter.

again the same with Christmas. It is a National Holiday. so not only are schools closed on that day, but so are State and Federal Holidays and everyone gets that day off. whether or not you are a christian.


so let's try a Religious Holiday that is 1) not a State or Federal holiday and 2) on a normal school day. for the sake of argument, Mon - Fri since some countries have school on Sat while others dont.

Halloween. no holiday, it's all saints day and I believe wiccans hold it to be a special day for them. is homework assigned and due on that day? yep.

Ash Wednesday. never recalled any "No Homework" for that day from any school.

St. Valentines Day? got homework for that as well.

Good Friday? Yep had homework due on that day as well as homework assigned.

Because there is a significant difference between not giving assignments that conflict with many studen'ts private religious beliefs they conduct on their own time, and putting a display of a religious belief on school ground. Gee I remember getting homework for during Halloween. and I had to do it dispite having to help putting up displays and decorations.

One is recognizing that many students have holidays that are not automatically on vacation time, and that since no student ever need to do an assignment on christmas or easter, that to streamline the process to not cause complications. Ignoring the fact that Easter always falls on a SUNDAY. and Christmas is during WINTER BREAKS. what of St. Valentine's Day? Passover? Halloween?

The other is using public grounds to promote a specific religion. so are you agreeing that one school deciding not to assign homework for one religion's special day is reconizing and promoting that religion?

Funny... I thought most schools are now Discouraged from putting up Christmas decorations. (of which a christmas tree does not hold any religious significance.)

would you believe bordem and stress?

Although, not arguing with you...you, I have conversations and discussions with. :)

oh... ok then. :p

<snip>

Are you 12?

An all Muslim public school is the antithesis of public schooling for so many fucking reasons.

How so? in New Zealand we have integrated schools, public schools and private schools.

Almost every religious school in New Zealand is integrated which means they receive public funding which in return they conform to the curriculum set down by the ministry of education - they can offer *more* than those subjects, but they must offer the subjects outlined. Hence there are Catholic schools which teach evolution in science and have a religious studies class as well. The two sitting side by side nicely.

Because there is a significant difference between not giving assignments that conflict with many studen'ts private religious beliefs they conduct on their own time, and putting a display of a religious belief on school ground.

One is recognizing that many students have holidays that are not automatically on vacation time, and that since no student ever need to do an assignment on christmas or easter, that to streamline the process to not cause complications.

The other is using public grounds to promote a specific religion.

You need to stay in school kid, at least until you can understand that basic concept.

A display is certainly not a 'promotion of beliefs' or even an endorsement for that matter - any more than a lack of a display is.

There is nobody alive who would believe that KMart is related to any church - yet they prominently display and sell Christmas themed items. Only a complete nimrod would consider this even a minor endorsement of religion.

Same goes for schools. Ignoring religious cultures would be like ignoring sexual education - just pretending like it isn't there won't make it go away - in fact it is dangerous to do so.

A display of Mexican or Asian culture does not create a hostile environment for students of different heritage - in fact it is enriching. Same goes for religious cultures. Teaching intolerance of religious expression is far more damaging than immersing students in a safe environment where religion is not treated like some sort of contraband.

Gee I remember getting homework for during Halloween. and I had to do it dispite having to help putting up displays and decorations.

The rules for Jewish holidays are somewhat different. They are not (only) positive--"do this"--but also involve restrictions on what you can do.

Since these restrictions tend to include things like writing....

Given the fact that EASTER is on a SUNDAY. there is no School on sunday. so ergo, nothing due. however, the weekend of Easter does have homework given. so if anyone procrastinates, then yes, they have to do homework on Easter.

again the same with Christmas. It is a National Holiday. so not only are schools closed on that day, but so are State and Federal Holidays and everyone gets that day off. whether or not you are a christian.


so let's try a Religious Holiday that is 1) not a State or Federal holiday and 2) on a normal school day. for the sake of argument, Mon - Fri since some countries have school on Sat while others dont.

Halloween. no holiday, it's all saints day and I believe wiccans hold it to be a special day for them. is homework assigned and due on that day? yep.

Ash Wednesday. never recalled any "No Homework" for that day from any school.

St. Valentines Day? got homework for that as well.

Good Friday? Yep had homework due on that day as well as homework assigned.

Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are the only ones of those that are even taken remotely seriously as Christian holidays, and those mostly just by Catholics. Halloween is the day before All Saints Day, which itself is again only a Catholic holiday, and Valentine's Day is a modern manufactured holiday and has nothing to do with St. Valentine, since no one is even entirely sure who he was, what he did, or if he, in fact, existed at all. :p There's no getting around the fact that the two major Christian holidays are always considered free time, which the major Jewish holidays are not, despite the fact that said Jewish holidays involve specific prohibitions against working on those days. It's not at all unreasonable for a teacher with any significant number of observant Jewish students (with what qualifies as "significant" varying from class to class) to take into account that those students will not be able to do work on Yom Kippur, and not to give homework that evening - that's just sensible policy. Now, if the Jewish students were given special exceptions, there might be a case to be made for unfair discrimination against non-Jews, but I've never heard of a teacher doing this.

What kind of "sponsorship"?
-----------------------
edit: pertaining to my post "Why? Is School sponsored St. Patrick's Day racially culturally exclusive? Black History Month? Chinese New Year?

No?

Then why should a religious cultural occasion be any different?

It is just as harmful to children to not educate them about the religious cultures of their neighbors as it would be to not educate them about the ethnic cultures of their neighbors.

I would much rather my child go to a school where there are menorahs, Christmas and Ramadan than one where there is an awkward hush during these occasions. I would be thrilled if my child asked my why we don't celebrate Hanukkah after hearing about it in his multi-cultural school."
----------------------

I was responding to your post;

School-sponsored symbols of religious holidays are quite a bit beyond "free expression."

Symbols of St. Patrick's day, Cinco De Mayo, Black History Week, are no more or less culturally exclusive than symbols of Christmans, Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, etc.

Symbols of St. Patrick's day, Cinco De Mayo, Black History Week, are no more or less culturally exclusive than symbols of Christmans, Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, etc.

Black History Month is not a cultural event, and is irrelevant here.

Religious events have an exclusivity to them that cultural events tend not to have... they are predicated on certain beliefs about the universe that tend to contradict the beliefs of people not belonging to the religion.

Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are the only ones of those that are even taken remotely seriously as a Christian holiday, and those mostly just by Catholics. Halloween is the day before All Saints Day, which itself is again only a Catholic holiday, and Valentine's Day is a modern manufactured holiday and has nothing to do with St. Valentine, since no one is even entirely sure who he was, what he did, or if he, in fact, existed at all. :p There's no getting around the fact that the two major Christian holidays are always considered free time, which the major Jewish holidays are not, despite the fact that said Jewish holidays involve specific prohibitions against working on those days. It's not at all unreasonable for a teacher with any significant number of observant Jewish students (with what qualifies as "significant" varying from class to class) to take into account that those students will not be able to do work on Yom Kippur, and not to give homework that evening - that's just sensible policy. Now, if the Jewish students were given special exceptions, there might be a case to be made for unfair discrimination against non-Jews, but I've never heard of a teacher doing this.

the only reason why those two major christian holidays are given free time is (say it with me :p) Location, Location, Location (on the calendar).

Easter is always on a Sunday. So until Public Schools operate on sunday...

Christmas was moved to the winter solestice (or near there) to 'bless a pagen' day of celebration. now here in the us, Christmas is a Federal Holiday. so again, no school. before Winter break was about three weeks long, now it's about a week or so I believe. so it is shrinking... in a couple of years it could be split to two days. Christmas and New Years. but we'll see.

Does that mean I am against other religions pettioning the Federal government to turn one of their Religious days into a Federal Holiday? no. infact, I'll wish them all the luck.

but what day would you use. can't use one taking up more than one day. so all those week long events won't work unless those asking will be satisfied with only one day.

and the one fact that most ignore. it's not the Government telling the school to celebrate/honor those days. but the school itself.

Funny how that the school (according to the OP) does NOT to put up Easter/Christmas/Thanksgiving/Hanukkah decorations because it will offend those that don't celebrate it, but they allow an Ad Hoc celebration of another religious holiday (and it does sound school wide and not just a couple of teachers). that sure sounds to me like the school is promoting a Religious event to it's students.

it's one thing for the teacher to say "Happy [insert religious day here]" and the teacher by his/herself decides to forgo any homework assignment, but the whole school?

Oh and I know alot of Christians who celebrate Palm Sunday, Lent, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, etc... however, they're not upset that they still have to do homework on those days.

A display is certainly not a 'promotion of beliefs' or even an endorsement for that matter - any more than a lack of a display is.

What is it then? What reason could a school possibly have for putting up a Christmas tree?

There is nobody alive who would believe that KMart is related to any church - yet they prominently display and sell Christmas themed items. Only a complete nimrod would consider this even a minor endorsement of religion.

You're fucking insane and that is the worst and most inapt analogy I've ever heard. K-Mart puts Christmas decorations up because they are a store with commercial interests and want to sell shit, and everybody knows this. They are a private company. In contrast a public school is not putting up Christmas displays on the hope that it will entice students to buy some more wrapping paper; the decorations are there because they are part of a celebration of Christmas. A celebration on public property with probably public resources. So much for your backwards analogy.

What is it then? What reason could a school possibly have for putting up a Christmas tree?
to celebrate the non-christian view of Christmas.

A Christmas tree has no Religious meaning. but in some Countries, decorating a tree was a cultrual event that was brought over to America.

same with the "Christmas Wreath"

and Santa Clause definately has no religous symbolism.

so what would be the purpose? to decorate the school and to instill a bit of Festive, light hearted atmosphere into an institute known for it's tests, pop quizes, homeworks and cliques.

the only reason why those two major christian holidays are given free time is (say it with me :p) Location, Location, Location (on the calendar).

Easter is always on a Sunday. So until Public Schools operate on sunday...

And the reason that public schools and many businesses don't operate on Sundays would be what? (Hint: It starts with an R and rhymes with "Smiligion.") :p

Christmas was moved to the winter solestice (or near there) to 'bless a pagen' day of celebration. now here in the us, Christmas is a Federal Holiday. so again, no school. before Winter break was about three weeks long, now it's about a week or so I believe. so it is shrinking... in a couple of years it could be split to two days. Christmas and New eYears. but we'll see.

Does that mean I am against other religions pettioning the Federal government to turn one of their Religious days into a Federal Holiday? no. infact, I'll wish them all the luck.

but what day would you use. can't use one taking up more than one day. so all those week long events won't work unless those asking will be satisfied with only one day.

and the one fact that most ignore. it's not the Government telling the school to celebrate/honor those days. but the school itself.

Funny how that the school (according to the OP) does NOT to put up Easter/Christmas/Thanksgiving/Hanukkah decorations because it will offend those that don't celebrate it, but they allow an Ad Hoc celebration of another religious holiday (and it does sound school wide and not just a couple of teachers). that sure sounds to me like the school is promoting a Religious event to it's students.

it's one thing for the teacher to say "Happy [insert religious day here]" and the teacher by his/herself decides to forgo any homework assignment, but the whole school?

Well, I certainly hope they don't say, "Happy Yom Kippur." That would be rather odd, if admittedly somewhat entertaining. ;)

Again, though, you're missing the detail that observation of those holidays specifically involves not doing anything religiously defined as "work," which, depending on one's orthodoxy, can include anything from what you or I might call "work" to picking up a pencil or flipping a light switch. If it is established that a significant portion of your class will not write something, whether you require them to or not, it is simply a sensible path of least resistance not to schedule an in-class essay on that day, since that way you won't have to fail a bunch of students for a stupid reason.

Oh and I know alot of Christians who celebrate Palm Sunday, Lent, Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, etc... however, they're not upset that they still have to do homework on those days.

This might have something to do with the fact that there is no Christian prohibition on doing work on holy days. If, however, there was a cooking class that demanded that all students cook and eat steak on Good Friday, I'd find that to be just as much stupid planning as scheduling a test on Yom Kippur. Making reasonable accommodations to religious beliefs doesn't endorse any one set of beliefs - it just acknowledges that such beliefs exist, and respects students' rights to act on them.

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?

Now let's get something straight here, I'm an atheist and damn proud of it. I am vehemently against school prayer and having "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.

But at this point in time, schools aren't secular, they just are aimed at not offending minority religions. And I think that sucks. We need to stop trying to take away Christmas trees from the guidance councilor's office while at the same time banning everyone from doing something significant on Jewish holidays, and for fuck's sake, they have an all-Muslim public school in New York now?!

And while I'm on Christmas, let me say, I do celebrate Christmas. I think it's a great holiday, I like all of the general traditions that go with it, I just don't associate it with Christianity.

But back on topic, I'd like to stop seeing public school systems that claim to be secular when really they just are P.C.
I agree, all religions should be equally unwelcome to use public school time and public school money to observe their religious holidays.

What is it then? What reason could a school possibly have for putting up a Christmas tree?

Given that the "Christmas" tree, as well as wreaths, ornaments strung on branches, "festive" foods, and pretty much all the other trappings of Christmas are 100% NON-Christian holiday symbols, I'd say that a school which puts those things up would be celebrating the Roman Gods, or possibly some Norse ones.

Seriously, though, I'd be delighted to see public schools put up such decorations as part of a learning exercise. Each display should include historical information about the origins of the decorations and symbols. If I thought for one moment that the rabid Christians would allow children to actually learn about the real history of Christmas, I'd be pushing such an idea in my kid brother's public school this year. Alas, even our predominantly Jewish suburb has enough bored and rabid Christians sitting around to make such efforts impossible. Any effort to interject reality will be perceived as an attack on Christmas.

Jesus,*the preemptive war on the war on Christmas comes earlier every year.

uhhh war on christams? That don't make sense, what the hell issat then?

uhhh war on christams? That don't make sense, what the hell issat then?

It's a term used to describe the "PC" (note the quotes) attack on Christmas and references to the "Christmas Season" as the "Holiday Season" by certain rabid Christian groups.

Mostly it's a whole lot of bluster and finger pointing, and fuel for the Daily Show.

Mostly I just want to go around pummeling people who bitch about the "war on Christmas." I do, however, rise above such urges.

It's a term used to describe the "PC" (note the quotes) attack on Christmas and references to the "Christmas Season" as the "Holiday Season" by certain rabid Christian groups.

Mostly it's a whole lot of bluster and finger pointing, and fuel for the Daily Show.

Mostly I just want to go around pummeling people who bitch about the "war on Christmas." I do, however, rise above such urges.

Ohhhh you mean yet another way for Christians to show how oppressed they are?:D

I had this mental image of commando's charging tinsel etc...

Ohhhh you mean yet another way for Christians to show how oppressed they are?:D

I had this mental image of commando's charging tinsel etc...

If only.

All this "We're an oppressed majority with our fingers dug firmly in the politics of this nation, and any legislation passed that isn't 100% pro-Christian automatically leads God to shoot puppies" bullshit is really beginning to get on my nerves.

If only.

All this "We're an oppressed majority with our fingers dug firmly in the politics of this nation, and any legislation passed that isn't 100% pro-Christian automatically leads God to shoot puppies" bullshit is really beginning to get on my nerves.


Umm although in reality, within the precepts of my faith God really does shoot puppies!

Ohhhh you mean yet another way for Christians to show how oppressed they are?:D

I had this mental image of commando's charging tinsel etc...
Bill O'Reilly is the primary Warrior For Christmas(tm). He's been using the supposed War On Christmas to prop up his flagging ratings for a couple years now. Any day now he should be starting in with stories about how the evil libruls want to imprison Santa and shoot Rudolph in the face.

Bill O'Reilly is the primary Warrior For Christmas(tm). He's been using the supposed War On Christmas to prop up his flagging ratings for a couple years now. Any day now he should be starting in with stories about how the evil libruls want to imprison Santa and shoot Rudolph in the face.

Actually some fundies actually oppose the 'Christmas culture' because they think Santa is a pagan god.

Actually some fundies actually oppose the 'Christmas culture' because they think Santa is a pagan god.
Well, yes, it's the usual damned-if-you-do, double-dog-damned-if-you-don't crap from the godders.

Just for once, I'd like to hear the names of Charlene Mitchell (first Black woman to run for president), Marcus Garvey, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Assata Shakur, Philadelphia MOVE, Fred Hampton, etc. mentioned during Black history month.
Personal pet peeve:

Rosa Parks used to be the figurehead for BOTH Black History Month and Women's History Month in my school district. Now, I have nothing against Rosa Parks, but seriously...it gave the impression that they simply couldn't think of any other important females in history.

I think it would be more useful to use Black History Month and Women's History Month to teach kids about all the reasons why women and minorities are excluded from our "normal" history, despite the fact that they have always contributed every bit as much as white males. Instead of making it all about some token figureheads, let's actually teach kids about why history is HUMAN and carries all the human flaws of those who write it. Teach them to be skeptical and to look for bias...because it's always there in one form or another!

So then you also do not display Mexican Flags on Cinco de Mayo, nor Clovers on St. Patricks day, nor anything relevant to black history month. Because to do so would certainly also promote those ethnicities and cultures above the others...

Separation of culture and state is not a legally recognized concept in America, even if it seems like it most of the time.

Furthermore, Black History Month is simply a useful corrective to the white history that forms the basis of the curriculum for the rest of the year. And it's watered down enough, thanks to the fact that American public schools are not in the business of educating students about American history, but instead providing a kind of common context for the themes of politicians' civil sermons to resonate. Thus we hear about Booker T. Washington, a carefully scrubbed biography of Rosa Parks, George Washington Carver, Martin Luther King Jr., and maybe WEB DuBois if we're lucky, but never any information about his politics or Black nationalism.

Just for once, I'd like to hear the names of Asa Philip Randolph, Charlene Mitchell, Marcus Garvey, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Assata Shakur, Philadelphia MOVE, Angela Davis, Fred Hampton, etc. mentioned during Black history month.

Bill O'Reilly is the primary Warrior For Christmas(tm). He's been using the supposed War On Christmas to prop up his flagging ratings for a couple years now. Any day now he should be starting in with stories about how the evil libruls want to imprison Santa and shoot Rudolph in the face.

But Bill could be shut up if the "liberals" just claim they confused a reindeer for a Texas quail. ;)

Well, yes, it's the usual damned-if-you-do, double-dog-damned-if-you-don't crap from the godders.

What you talkin' about? Are you saying that the kids don't learn about Marcus Garvey during black history month? Bloody hell what then is the point?

But Bill could be shut up if the "liberals" just claim they confused a reindeer for a Texas quail. ;)

Don't forget the part where Santa and Rudolph apologize for getting shot.

Personal pet peeve:

Rosa Parks used to be the figurehead for BOTH Black History Month and Women's History Month in my school district. Now, I have nothing against Rosa Parks, but seriously...it gave the impression that they simply couldn't think of any other important females in history.

Well, they really can't. Not because they aren't there, but because they don't make nice homilies for our civil sermons. Left-wing politics has always been particularly popular among the disempowered, and looking too closely would also reveal the patterns of systemic racism in American culture.

I took my AP US History class from a Black woman who had been active in the SNCC during the 1960s. The ideal person to teach Black History Month, right? Wrong, unfortunately. She self-censored because she knew if she were ever open about the stuff that was her own lived history, she would have all the conservative elements of my home town come down on her.

I think it would be more useful to use Black History Month and Women's History Month to teach kids about all the reasons why women and minorities are excluded from our "normal" history, despite the fact that they have always contributed every bit as much as white males. Instead of making it all about some token figureheads, let's actually teach kids about why history is HUMAN and carries all the human flaws of those who write it. Teach them to be skeptical and to look for bias...because it's always there in one form or another!

I do too, but teaching it that way would also have to indict the common American pedagogy. If we stopped teaching people that America is the combination of the Puritans' Shining City on a Hill and a compassionate and rational world power straight out of the best principles of Enlightenment idealism, then maybe we'd see a little more critical attitude when the government decides that, for the sake of freedom and democracy, it has to bomb a people 12,000 miles away until they do exactly what one wants.

Well, they really can't. Not because they aren't there, but because they don't make nice homilies for our civil sermons. Left-wing politics has always been particularly popular among the disempowered, and looking too closely would also reveal the patterns of systemic racism in American culture.

I took my AP US History class from a Black woman who had been active in the SNCC during the 1960s. The ideal person to teach Black History Month, right? Wrong, unfortunately. She self-censored because she knew if she were ever open about the stuff that was her own lived history, she would have all the conservative elements of my home town come down on her.



I do too, but teaching it that way would also have to indict the common American pedagogy. If we stopped teaching people that America is the combination of the Puritans' Shining City on a Hill and a compassionate and rational world power straight out of the best principles of Enlightenment idealism, then maybe we'd see a little more critical attitude when the government decides that, for the sake of freedom and democracy, it has to bomb a people 12,000 miles away until they do exactly what one wants.
All true, but still a bummer to me. :(

It's really pathetic because Women's History Month and Black History Month actually end up accomplishing the opposite of their supposed goals. Instead of teaching kids about how women and minorities are unfairly overlooked by "standard" history, they just perpetuate that practice by pointing out a few women or minority individuals who managed to do cool stuff...and by recycling the same few people over and over they give the impression that only those few rare individuals actually did something of note. Hence, the over-all impression is that women and minorities are excluded from history because only a very few of them ever did anything noteworthy.

the only reason why those two major christian holidays are given free time is (say it with me :p) Location, Location, Location (on the calendar).

Easter is always on a Sunday. So until Public Schools operate on sunday...

Christmas was moved to the winter solestice (or near there) to 'bless a pagen' day of celebration. now here in the us, Christmas is a Federal Holiday. so again, no school. before Winter break was about three weeks long, now it's about a week or so I believe. so it is shrinking... in a couple of years it could be split to two days. Christmas and New Years. but we'll see.



Wait, lemme get this straight. You think that the fact that public schools do not operate on Sunday and on Chirstmas Day is...entirely coincidental? That what a shock, every shcool is closed on christmas day?

It never occured to you that "winter vacation" is specifically because of christmas? That schools don't operate on sunday because sunday is the christian day of rest?

You make it sound like schools shut down during the winter and that oh so very coincidentally and oh my god how shocking that happens to be when christmas is. Because no assignme nts are given during christmas because christmas just so happens to fall during vacation time.

Completely ignoring that this vacation time exists when it does because of christmas.

The fact that students have no assignments on christmas does not have to do with "christmas' location" and only a damn fool would think that. Christmas doesn't just happen to fall on a vacation time, that vacation time was created to include christmas.

I swear, so many christians are so totally oblivious to how theire religion as shaped this society. I can't believe someone would be so amazingly daft as to try and argue that schools are closed on christmas because christmas happens to fall during vacation and that it is entirely coincidental that schools don't operate on Sunday

I mean, really, are you honestly, truly trying to say that the only reason that schools are not open during the major two christian holidays is because christmas just so happens to be a holiday time, and that schools are not open on Sundays, completely absent the fact that sunday is the day people go to church?

That you completely don't recognize that schools are closed on Sunday because Sunday is when christians go to church, and that if chrismas was in April, schools would be closed in April?

Not at all?

were they purposely that way? did they turn away brown kids and atheists?

They just sorta ran brown folk out of town. I had such a lovely community as a kid.

All true, but still a bummer to me. :(

It's really pathetic because Women's History Month and Black History Month actually end up accomplishing the opposite of their supposed goals. Instead of teaching kids about how women and minorities are unfairly overlooked by "standard" history, they just perpetuate that practice by pointing out a few women or minority individuals who managed to do cool stuff...and by recycling the same few people over and over they give the impression that only those few rare individuals actually did something of note. Hence, the over-all impression is that women and minorities are excluded from history because only a very few of them ever did anything noteworthy.

Normal history classes you just kind of skip from war to war to war. Oh occasionally you'll cover some obscure political scandal or another, but by and large you're covering the various wars throughout history. You'll learn bits and pieces about some general or another from each and they call that history class.

you didn't do anything about it?

The only black family I can recall in the county got "encouraged" to leave when I was about 6. It's still shocking to see anyone who's not white there.

They just sorta ran brown folk out of town. I had such a lovely community as a kid.

you didn't do anything about it?

The only black family I can recall in the county got "encouraged" to leave when I was about 6. It's still shocking to see anyone who's not white there.

that's horrible. I live in a place that's supposed to be backwards and racist and I have never seen any family "encouraged" to leave, although I did grow up in the poverty stricken neighborhood, so everyone was pretty happy just to have somewhere to live.

Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Texas Christian University, Southern Methodist University...

You forgot Liberty University.

that's horrible. I live in a place that's supposed to be backwards and racist and I have never seen any family "encouraged" to leave, although I did grow up in the poverty stricken neighborhood, so everyone was pretty happy just to have somewhere to live.

This (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=38%C2%B032%2728.02%22N++++87%C2%B011%2722.61%22W&sll=38.562798,-87.167931&sspn=0.066979,0.11673) is where I grew up. That's my old house actually. Talk about in the middle of absolutely fucking nowhere.

This (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=38%C2%B032%2728.02%22N++++87%C2%B011%2722.61%22W&sll=38.562798,-87.167931&sspn=0.066979,0.11673) is where I grew up. That's my old house actually. Talk about in the middle of absolutely fucking nowhere.

Fuck me the next house is like in the next country!

Fuck me the next house is like in the next country!

Actually they've built the area up since I lived there. Done some logging too. I'd love to find a house in an area like that for sale now.

I think you are lying about that, I think you're another Christian fundie and you put that sentence in to get a semblance of authority to the rest of your OP, which is profoundly bigoted. If you really were an atheist you'd realize how reactionary and intolerant all religions are, and whether they are minorities or not is immaterial, and you wouldn't defend them.

Speak for yourself, please. When I was a young atheist, I openly mocked and attacked religion, I admit it. However, as I grew up, I realized that A) I wasn't going to make friends that way, and B) I would mark myself as chronically unpleasant to be around if I felt the need to roll my eyes every time someone prayed. Not all religions are reactionary and intolerant, and not all practitioners of religion are unworthy of defense by atheists. I will defend anyone whose beliefs are TRULY under attack.

To put it another way, your posted view of what atheism "should" be is an embarrassment to rational thought and considerate behavior, and does NOT represent all atheists in the same way that radical/fundamentalist Christians or Muslims do NOT represent their real faiths.

Given the fact that EASTER is on a SUNDAY. there is no School on sunday. so ergo, nothing due. however, the weekend of Easter does have homework given. so if anyone procrastinates, then yes, they have to do homework on Easter.

That isn't the school's fault, it's the fault of the student who procrastinated. They "forced" themselves to do the work on Easter, and then, presumably, to atone for doing so. Place blame where it belongs, please.

Black History Month is not a cultural event, and is irrelevant here.

Religious events have an exclusivity to them that cultural events tend not to have... they are predicated on certain beliefs about the universe that tend to contradict the beliefs of people not belonging to the religion.

Say what? How in the name of John Brown's body is Black History Month anything BUT cultural?

Separation of culture and state is not a legally recognized concept in America, even if it seems like it most of the time.

Furthermore, Black History Month is simply a useful corrective to the white history that forms the basis of the curriculum for the rest of the year. And it's watered down enough, thanks to the fact that American public schools are not in the business of educating students about American history, but instead providing a kind of common context for the themes of politicians' civil sermons to resonate. Thus we hear about Booker T. Washington, a carefully scrubbed biography of Rosa Parks, George Washington Carver, Martin Luther King Jr., and maybe WEB DuBois if we're lucky, but never any information about his politics or Black nationalism.

Just for once, I'd like to hear the names of Asa Philip Randolph, Charlene Mitchell, Marcus Garvey, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Assata Shakur, Philadelphia MOVE, Angela Davis, Fred Hampton, etc. mentioned during Black history month.

Medgar Evers, Emmett Till, Sojourner Truth, Cassius Clay, Lew Alcindor, Jesse Owens, Athea Gibson, Sally Hemmings...yeah. I agree.

If a teacher decides that not giving homework on minority religious holidays is the best way to accomodate everyone, then go ahead. It might actually be the fairest method - giving religious students an exemption or an extension gives them an advantage.

My brother's school (which is private and secular) does have Jewish holidays off, to accomodate the roughly 20% of students and faculty who are Jewish. If enough people will be absent that the normal function of the school is disrupted, then giving everyone a day off for a religious holiday makes sense.

As for a teacher putting up a Christmas tree in their office or classroom, it depends on how much control the teacher has over their office or classroom decorations. If teachers are normally allowed to display personal memorabilia (my history teacher had a guide to the 2004 Tour de France, since he was an enthusiastic cyclist), then I would apply the following rule: what if the tree was a sculpture of the same size? I think that a small tree would be OK, but a big one would be something of a distraction.

Say what? How in the name of John Brown's body is Black History Month anything BUT cultural?

Presumably the person meant to say "not religious". Which is a point. Despite the uncultured rhetoric of most politicians, there is no necessary separation of culture and state.

Medgar Evers, Emmett Till, Sojourner Truth, Cassius Clay, Lew Alcindor, Jesse Owens, Athea Gibson, Sally Hemmings...yeah. I agree.

Thanks for supporting my contention, especially if the class you learned from called Muhammad Ali "Cassius Clay". By calling him Cassius Clay, one can evade the responsibility of explaining that he became a symbol of Black Power, and whether one called him Clay or Ali became an unmistakable signal for where one stood on civil rights, Black Power, and ultimately the war in Vietnam. The New York Times predictably made it an editorial policy to refer to Ali as "Clay" for years.

Referring to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar by his birth name achieves the same effect, a way of not acknowledging that he considered his conversion to Islam as latching onto a heritage that he said had been suppressed or distorted by white culture. Seems he's now symbolic of that very suppression.

The rest of these people in your list are symbolic of that same whitewash of Black history. It's acceptable to mention Althea Gibson and Jesse Owens, but not to mention Tommie Smith and John Carlos, who created a controversy when they gave a Black power salute from the Olympic podium, having won the gold and bronze medals (respectively) for the 200m dash, which led to the Olympic Committee shamefully stripping them of their medals for their political commitment.

Nor could the rest of your examples be said to have any political commitments more left wing than the bog-standard social democrats.

Thanks for supporting my contention, especially if the class you learned from called Muhammad Ali "Cassius Clay". By calling him Cassius Clay, one can evade the responsibility of explaining that he became a symbol of Black Power, and whether one called him Clay or Ali became an unmistakable signal for where one stood on civil rights, Black Power, and ultimately the war in Vietnam. The New York Times predictably made it an editorial policy to refer to Ali as "Clay" for years.

Referring to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar by his birth name achieves the same effect, a way of not acknowledging that he considered his conversion to Islam as latching onto a heritage that he said had been suppressed or distorted by white culture. Seems he's now symbolic of that very suppression.

The rest of these people in your list are symbolic of that same whitewash of Black history. It's acceptable to mention Althea Gibson and Jesse Owens, but not to mention Tommie Smith and John Carlos, who created a controversy when they gave a Black power salute from the Olympic podium, having won the gold and bronze medals (respectively) for the 200m dash, which led to the Olympic Committee shamefully stripping them of their medals for their political commitment.

Nor could the rest of your examples be said to have any political commitments more left wing than the bog-standard social democrats.

See, now, this kind of smugness is why your point of view -- extremely valid though it is -- is someties ignored. Please pardon me all to hell for not knowing the names of the guys who gave the Black Power salute and hung their heads at the 1968 Mexico City games. Medgar Evers doesn't count? Emmett Till doesn't matter? There was a woman (Irene Morgan (http://heroworkshop.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/irene-morgan-before-rosa-parks/)) who refused to give up her seat on a bus in the South as early as 1944 (11 years before Rosa Parks -- Ms Morgan died this year). I had to look up her name. Does that also invalidate any claim I might have to being liberal?

Fuck that. When I post here, I do it off the top of my head, and the names in the first post you quoted from me were the ones I had in the front of my mind. I knew about the Olympics and the 1944 Greyhound incident, but I didn't have the names memorized. If that's not good enough for you, then you're an asshole who's doing more harm than good by turning your memorization into a more-black-historical-than-thou moment. If that's not how you meant to come across, then I apologize for the asshole comment...but that's how you came across.

One more thing, Cascadia.

I mention Lew Alcindor and Cassius Clay because far too few people know that those names were shed for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Muhammed Ali. I also think Ali deserves mention because he refused to go to Vietnam and was punished. As George Carlin put it in 1973, "He's allowed to do his job again. He has a fairly unusual job -- beating people up. The government stopped him from doing his job because they wanted him to do another job. They wanted him to kill people. Ali said, 'no -- I'll beat 'em up, but I won't kill 'em', and the government said 'well, if you won't kill 'em, we're not gonna let you beat 'em up!'"

It said a hell of a lot about both the government and Ali. If you think that a public figure as well-known as Ali telling the white-dominated government that he wasn't going to be another minority soldier sent to fight people who had nothing against him doesn't merit mention, then you're off your nut.

Say what? How in the name of John Brown's body is Black History Month anything BUT cultural?

Its purpose is educational. It's not a matter of a particular culture celebrating something during that period.

Here's the kicker though. Do teachers assign homework on Christmas or Easter?

What's that? No?

Then I'll consider the matter settled.

I don't know what level of education this is reffering to, but the teachers I have had assigned homework and the like whenever they damned well wanted to. That included all breaks and holidays. In fact, whenever school was out, possibly due to a major religious holiday, they tended to assign more work since we "have more time to complete it".

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?

Now let's get something straight here, I'm an atheist and damn proud of it. I am vehemently against school prayer and having "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.

But at this point in time, schools aren't secular, they just are aimed at not offending minority religions. And I think that sucks. We need to stop trying to take away Christmas trees from the guidance councilor's office while at the same time banning everyone from doing something significant on Jewish holidays, and for fuck's sake, they have an all-Muslim public school in New York now?!

And while I'm on Christmas, let me say, I do celebrate Christmas. I think it's a great holiday, I like all of the general traditions that go with it, I just don't associate it with Christianity.

But back on topic, I'd like to stop seeing public school systems that claim to be secular when really they just are P.C.

its not an all Muslim public school. Its a school that teaches the Arabic language and Arab culture. The horror:rolleyes: The women that runs it is Jewish, btw.

its not an all Muslim public school. Its a school that teaches the Arabic language and Arab culture. The horror:rolleyes: The women that runs it is Jewish, btw.

Well how do you think Muslims became...Muslim? Hrrrhrhrrmm? Clearly at some point they were taught Arabic language and culture. No good can come of that. Learning about other cultures is an inherently harmful act which would only further distance us from the enemy. The more you can understand eachother's viewpoints and positions.. the more you can communicate with the foreign devils.. the more the communist party worms its way into the heart of Democracy.. into the Bastion of Freedom.. undermining the Walls of Justice and Slaughtering the Guardians of Truth...Only 5 payments of $9.99!!!!!!?!$?!$@!1111

Wait..where was I?

I don't know what level of education this is reffering to, but the teachers I have had assigned homework and the like whenever they damned well wanted to. That included all breaks and holidays. In fact, whenever school was out, possibly due to a major religious holiday, they tended to assign more work since we "have more time to complete it".

and once again you make the same mistake that's been made over and over again on this thread. Assigning something "over break" is not the same as assigning it "on the holiday". If a teacher gives you an assignment to be done over a week vacation, one of those days being christmas, you have the option to NOT do it on christmas.

the question asked was, have you ever had an assignment that had to be done on christmas? Not over christmas break where you could do it on christmas if you chose to. Have you ever had an assignment that had to be done on christmas.

Wait, lemme get this straight. You think that the fact that public schools do not operate on Sunday and on Chirstmas Day is...entirely coincidental? That what a shock, every shcool is closed on christmas day?

It never occured to you that "winter vacation" is specifically because of christmas? That schools don't operate on sunday because sunday is the christian day of rest?

You make it sound like schools shut down during the winter and that oh so very coincidentally and oh my god how shocking that happens to be when christmas is. Because no assignme nts are given during christmas because christmas just so happens to fall during vacation time.

Completely ignoring that this vacation time exists when it does because of christmas.

The fact that students have no assignments on christmas does not have to do with "christmas' location" and only a damn fool would think that. Christmas doesn't just happen to fall on a vacation time, that vacation time was created to include christmas.

I swear, so many christians are so totally oblivious to how theire religion as shaped this society. I can't believe someone would be so amazingly daft as to try and argue that schools are closed on christmas because christmas happens to fall during vacation and that it is entirely coincidental that schools don't operate on Sunday

I mean, really, are you honestly, truly trying to say that the only reason that schools are not open during the major two christian holidays is because christmas just so happens to be a holiday time, and that schools are not open on Sundays, completely absent the fact that sunday is the day people go to church?

That you completely don't recognize that schools are closed on Sunday because Sunday is when christians go to church, and that if chrismas was in April, schools would be closed in April?

Not at all?I love you. I volunteer to give you a blow job at anytime. Or cunninglingus if that's more appropriate.

hah, you already know me though you might not know so. I was arthais101 in another posting life.

I love you. I volunteer to give you a blow job at anytime. Or cunninglingus if that's more appropriate.

I volunteer to....nah, skip it. I'd rather watch.

See, now, this kind of smugness is why your point of view -- extremely valid though it is -- is someties ignored. Please pardon me all to hell for not knowing the names of the guys who gave the Black Power salute and hung their heads at the 1968 Mexico City games. Medgar Evers doesn't count? Emmett Till doesn't matter?

There's no delicate way to say this, but grow a thicker skin. You responded to me in the first instance, when I was saying things to "Bottle" that I pretty much reiterated here and the fact that it was a reiteration should have been sufficient to conclude that I was not attacking you.

What I have been taking issue with this whole time is the way in which Black people are suppressed or whitewashed to deny any trace of serious left-wing commitments in Black history. It's not your fault that your list provided me with a very good example of what I was talking about; it is the fault of the textbooks and pedagogical philosophy under which you were educated.

Coming from the way Black history is taught in the United States, Medgar Evers doesn't count nor does Emmett Till, and that's because they're denied agency. We don't contextualize their struggle in a broader political philosophy with a lot of left-wing elements to it, so it basically becomes "Look at these people. They died as victims of white supremacists. How sad." They become people who are not the main actors in their own biographies, instead their importance comes from the white supremacists who killed them. That's denying them agency.

I don't mean to make light of the tragedy these these people and their families went through—on the contrary I'd like to see their sacrifices discussed in a context where it really means something. By identifying them as victims first and eliding their own political philosophies and all the philosophies, including the radical ones, which informed the worldviews of Black people, we make their identities meaningless. Emmett Till could have been Frazier Baker or any other victim of white supremacist crime. I'd rather see him in context, as a fully fleshed-out human being, rather than just a mere symbol of white violence in the Civil Rights Era.

Instead, by refusing to focus on systemic racism, political radicalism, and other elements of the lived experience of Black people, Black history becomes caricature and the names become interchangeable. It's not just a fault of Black history month, although it galls me more in that case because systemic racism is still around and it's my opinion that high school should be preparing people to question and confront such things, not sweep them under the rug. Books like Zinn's A People's History of the United States are a great corrective to the tendency to turn history two-dimensional.

It said a hell of a lot about both the government and Ali. If you think that a public figure as well-known as Ali telling the white-dominated government that he wasn't going to be another minority soldier sent to fight people who had nothing against him doesn't merit mention, then you're off your nut.

On the contrary, I do think it merits mention...and US History classes, or at least the one I took, during Black History Month don't mention it!

its not an all Muslim public school. Its a school that teaches the Arabic language and Arab culture. The horror:rolleyes: The women that runs it is Jewish, btw.

You should know Western mentality by now. If a school teaches Arabic and Arab Culture, then it must be a Jihadi Madrassa.

You should know Western mentality by now. If a school teaches Arabic and Arab Culture, then it must be a Jihadi Madrassa.

It's a fair assumption given the recent report about mosques in the UK.

and once again you make the same mistake that's been made over and over again on this thread. Assigning something "over break" is not the same as assigning it "on the holiday". If a teacher gives you an assignment to be done over a week vacation, one of those days being christmas, you have the option to NOT do it on christmas.

the question asked was, have you ever had an assignment that had to be done on christmas? Not over christmas break where you could do it on christmas if you chose to. Have you ever had an assignment that had to be done on christmas.


If you want to get picky, the holiday is Twelve days long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Holy_Days

In my experience, institutions of education have discriminated against all religions equally.:p

hah, you already know me though you might not know so. I was arthais101 in another posting life.LOL

What can I say? Smart men make me horny.

LOL

What can I say? Smart men make me horny.

well hey there, I ever tell you I went to Yale? ;)

There's no delicate way to say this, but grow a thicker skin. You responded to me in the first instance, when I was saying things to "Bottle" that I pretty much reiterated here and the fact that it was a reiteration should have been sufficient to conclude that I was not attacking you.

What I have been taking issue with this whole time is the way in which Black people are suppressed or whitewashed to deny any trace of serious left-wing commitments in Black history. It's not your fault that your list provided me with a very good example of what I was talking about; it is the fault of the textbooks and pedagogical philosophy under which you were educated.

Coming from the way Black history is taught in the United States, Medgar Evers doesn't count nor does Emmett Till, and that's because they're denied agency. We don't contextualize their struggle in a broader political philosophy with a lot of left-wing elements to it, so it basically becomes "Look at these people. They died as victims of white supremacists. How sad." They become people who are not the main actors in their own biographies, instead their importance comes from the white supremacists who killed them. That's denying them agency.

I don't mean to make light of the tragedy these these people and their families went through—on the contrary I'd like to see their sacrifices discussed in a context where it really means something. By identifying them as victims first and eliding their own political philosophies and all the philosophies, including the radical ones, which informed the worldviews of Black people, we make their identities meaningless. Emmett Till could have been Frazier Baker or any other victim of white supremacist crime. I'd rather see him in context, as a fully fleshed-out human being, rather than just a mere symbol of white violence in the Civil Rights Era.

Instead, by refusing to focus on systemic racism, political radicalism, and other elements of the lived experience of Black people, Black history becomes caricature and the names become interchangeable. It's not just a fault of Black history month, although it galls me more in that case because systemic racism is still around and it's my opinion that high school should be preparing people to question and confront such things, not sweep them under the rug. Books like Zinn's A People's History of the United States are a great corrective to the tendency to turn history two-dimensional.



On the contrary, I do think it merits mention...and US History classes, or at least the one I took, during Black History Month don't mention it!

An excellent post.

However, the smugness remains. "The fault of the textbooks and philosophy under which I was educated"? You don't know a thing about how I was educated, and your tone bespeaks a superiority you have yet to earn or demonstrate, so far as I can tell. It sounds to me like you think you're older than I am. I'll easily concede that you're better educated about this topic, because that much is obvious. You've taken a course or read a lot on the subject, and for that, you are to be congratulated.

I'm a music professor, not a professor of history. However, I've seen the excellent Frontline documentary on the Emmett Till case, and the reason he has no agency is that he was not allowed to live long enough to create one (and words like "agency" give your education away -- forever using academe-speak when simpler words will do). He was killed by whites because he "whistled at a white woman". While that may not make for as interesting a story as Irene Morgan (about whom you tellingly did not comment) or the rest of the anarchists, communists or other "-ists" of the Civil Rights movement, it is not unimportant to know that name. Please tell me -- what is either right or left wing about being murdered in cold blood for a reason thinner than froghair? What were young Mr. Till's philosophies? Do you even know?

I am not the one who needs thicker skin. If you wish to educate or enlighten without either alienating or annoying, thickness of skin is something YOU need to take into account. You don't shove your own political motivations in someone's face when they show above average knowledge of your favorite topic. THAT's how you END someone's interest and set them against you.

I respect your desire to show us all the whole picture, and I'm well aware that Blacks from Crispus Attucks and Frederick Douglass to Malcolm X and even Dr. King weren't saints. Just like all my favorite Black musicians, from Bessie Smith and Louis Armstrong to Joe Williams and Dianne Reeves were far from angels, as they're often portrayed. But instead of deriding what we DO know, why not just expound on all that? Add TO it? Which of these notable people were communists? Which were anarchists? Which were ardent capitalists? The famous of any race are just like the famous of any other, right? Full of flaws, foibles and fantastic moments in time. So, explain it to us rather than pedantically ridicule us.

Otherwise, you do your point of view more harm than good.

EDIT: I own Zinn's history. It's in the next ten on my list. And I wasn't in public school for Black History Month...my textbooks were juuuust getting around to acknowledging Dr. King as important, let alone anyone else. King's birthday wasn't made a federal holiday until I was a sophomore in high school.

Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Texas Christian University, Southern Methodist University...
Oral Roberts, TCU and SMU arent truly Christian schools anymore. Bob Jones is one of the most strict and controlling institutions ever created. My cousin goes to Bob Jones and:

Can only watch "G" rated movies
Cannot shop at certain stores in the mall
Cannot wear skin tight jeans
Cannot listen to the radio

They have monitors out in the community to enforce this also. I am a fairly conservative Christian and this makes me sick.

Actually some fundies actually oppose the 'Christmas culture' because they think Santa is a pagan god.

http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=35
?

Oral Roberts, TCU and SMU arent truly Christian schools anymore. Bob Jones is one of the most strict and controlling institutions ever created. My cousin goes to Bob Jones and:

Can only watch "G" rated movies
Cannot shop at certain stores in the mall
Cannot wear skin tight jeans
Cannot listen to the radio

They have monitors out in the community to enforce this also. I am a fairly conservative Christian and this makes me sick.

do you mind me asking why your cousin goes there? I've been trying to figure out what makes people choose that kinda school for some time now...

Riiiight. Nobody is getting excluded there... :rolleyes:

"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.... Right after they are excused from their specialized and completely optional culturally exclusive schools - except for the sons of former slave owners who don't get a specialized option because that would be racist."

You're being willfully obtuse, aren't you?
Students compete to get into these schools, just as they do to get into magnet schools. You don't have to be gay to go to Harvey Milk school, you don't have to be Arab to go to Khalil Gibran International Academy.

They are not being shunted there to keep them away from other students, and they are not excluding anyone who wants to go.

Would Dr. King bemoan students going to Clara Barton High School to get into the nursing program? Or John Dewey to get into the law program? Or Edward R. Murrow to get into the TV and Radio program? No?

Please.

but are those public or private schools? And do those public schools actually refuse entry because the student isn't Chinese, Gay, etc...

actually.. yes. I got homework assigned over Christmas Break, Easter weekends, etc...

heck, I had reading lists to do over Summer Vacation.

They are public, and no, they don't refuse entry to people who are not gay, Chinese, etc.

Wow

about 1/3 of schools here in the UK are "faith" schools. Catholic, church of England, Jewish etc.

Theoretically they accept a few pupils who are not of the faith they subscribe to but in practice parents are told hat if their child attends they have to take part in the faith side of things. Note the parents make this decision not the child.

So if you go to a catholic school you will have to attend mass in school time, pray at set times, not eat meat on certain days etc. etc. The RE taught in these schools is "Our religion is right, everyone else is deluded"

For me equally worrying is the way lessons that should have nothing to do with RE are foisted on people. I happen to have attended a Catholic Girls school - my entire education was centred on me learning to be a wife and mother. Lots of cookery and sewing lessons. And things like how to hand wash and starch a shirt.

So why do people send their kids to these schools?

sometimes there is no choice. One of my friends lives in a rural area - the only school her kids can walk to is Methodist. If she put them in the car and took them to the next village the only school there is Catholic.

Sometimes there are other reasons. I have a racist mother. I lived in a town with a large Asian Muslim population. The school I went to was 100% white.

For a few it is that the parents and even the child do attend church (or mosque, synagogue etc) but at least for the Christian schools this is a minority, fewer than 10% of the UK attends church on a regular basis.

Personally I think religion has no place in schools.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_grayling/2007/09/ghettoes_of_superstition.html

Black History Month is not a cultural event, and is irrelevant here.

Riiiiight. Black history has nothing to do with black culture.... I'll let you stand by that one all by yourself while I stand waaaaay over here - behind my tomato-proof screen.


Religious events have an exclusivity to them that cultural events tend not to have... they are predicated on certain beliefs about the universe that tend to contradict the beliefs of people not belonging to the religion.

Bullshit. Black history is about black Americans. Cinco de Mayo is not even about North Americans! St. Patricks day isn't about the Chinese and Chinese new year isn't about the Irish.. They are all specific to one ethnicity yet they are all inclusive (and enriching) to everyone regardless of ethnicity.

If ethnic culture is valued then so is religious culture. There is no major religion in the world which excludes anyone. I may not get to be Spanish but I can certainly get to be Catholic. That is the OPPOSITE of exclusive.

The fact that one religion may contradict the beliefs of people not belonging to that religion is irrelevant. There are many facets of sexual education which contradict various religious beliefs - yet it is still a part of school curriculum.

Allowing teachers and schools to display religion is no more proselytizing as selling Christmas trees in KMart. It is immoral to stifle them of their own beliefs as it would be of their ethnicity.

Religion and race are both integral parts of the many cultures that make up the US. To only allow the appreciation of one and not the other is not only ridiculous - it is hypocritical and potentially harmful.

Personal pet peeve:

Rosa Parks used to be the figurehead for BOTH Black History Month and Women's History Month in my school district. Now, I have nothing against Rosa Parks, but seriously...it gave the impression that they simply couldn't think of any other important females in history.

I think it would be more useful to use Black History Month and Women's History Month to teach kids about all the reasons why women and minorities are excluded from our "normal" history, despite the fact that they have always contributed every bit as much as white males. Instead of making it all about some token figureheads, let's actually teach kids about why history is HUMAN and carries all the human flaws of those who write it. Teach them to be skeptical and to look for bias...because it's always there in one form or another!

Share with me an example of a white person who's historical achievements have been placed above a black person or woman of any races superior achievement in the context of 'normal' history lessons.

There is no major religion in the world which excludes anyone.
Scientology.

Furthermore, Black History Month is simply a useful corrective to the white history that forms the basis of the curriculum for the rest of the year. OVE, Angela Davis, Fred Hampton, etc. mentioned during Black history.

Really? Please show me one history textbook with the word "white" "Caucasian" "Anglo-Saxon" or any other synonym in the title which is used in any US public school system. I bet you can't even find a chapter in a textbook with one of those words in the title - certainly not as frequent as you find "Black" or other derivatives.

I also can guarantee that you don't find hardly any mention of Asian Americans except maybe as a small footnote next to Irish in the chapter about intercontinental railway...

Scientology.

I can do you one better: Hinduism. The religion with a rigid social hierarchy where it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to become a Hindu. One is more than welcome to lead a Hindu lifestyle, but one MUST be born a Hindu to be a Hindu.

That's pretty fucking exclusive, right there.

Allowing teachers and schools to display religion is no more proselytizing as selling Christmas trees in KMart.

One difference. Kmart is not government property

It is immoral to stifle them of their own beliefs as it would be of their ethnicity. Religion and race are both integral parts of the many cultures that make up the US. To only allow the appreciation of one and not the other is not only ridiculous - it is hypocritical and potentially harmful.

Maybe yes maybe no, regardless, the constitution is silent about culture, it is very clear about religion.

Really? Please show me one history textbook with the word "white" "Caucasian" "Anglo-Saxon" or any other synonym in the title which is used in any US public school system.

Which is great, because it's totally irrelevant. Pray tell, why does 9th grade history briefly touch up on Ancient Chinese and Indian civilizations, cover the major wars of the Egyptians, the Romans, and the Greeks, and then spend the next 75% of the school year discussing Medieval Europe?

Did nothing go on between 400 AD and 1400 AD in the rest of the WORLD that wasn't worth covering, and that had an impact on the modern world? You know, like the preservation of knowledge from the fall of Rome by Arab Muslims.

Hell, Aquinas' examination of Aristotelian thought, part of Summa Contra Gentiles, was only possible because of the transfer of Aristotle's work through the Middle East following the fall of Rome, just to give one example.

Or the advances in technology and the wars in the far east, and the development of the gunpowder that was eventually picked up by Europeans and led to their military dominance of Africa and South America?


No, all you ever hear about is what this French King or that Austrian Emperor did.

History, at least as it is taught in high school in America, is inherently anglo-centric.

There's a difference between respecting someone's religion and endorsing it.
Christmas trees and hannukiahs (menorahs) aren't allowed.
You get little or no homework over Christmas/Easter and Rosh Hashanah/etc..

Riiiiight. Black history has nothing to do with black culture.... I'll let you stand by that one all by yourself while I stand waaaaay over here - behind my tomato-proof screen.



Bullshit. Black history is about black Americans. Cinco de Mayo is not even about North Americans! St. Patricks day isn't about the Chinese and Chinese new year isn't about the Irish.. They are all specific to one ethnicity yet they are all inclusive (and enriching) to everyone regardless of ethnicity.

If ethnic culture is valued then so is religious culture. There is no major religion in the world which excludes anyone. I may not get to be Spanish but I can certainly get to be Catholic. That is the OPPOSITE of exclusive.

The fact that one religion may contradict the beliefs of people not belonging to that religion is irrelevant. There are many facets of sexual education which contradict various religious beliefs - yet it is still a part of school curriculum.

Allowing teachers and schools to display religion is no more proselytizing as selling Christmas trees in KMart. It is immoral to stifle them of their own beliefs as it would be of their ethnicity.

Religion and race are both integral parts of the many cultures that make up the US. To only allow the appreciation of one and not the other is not only ridiculous - it is hypocritical and potentially harmful.

Excellent post!

I do take issue with your claim of non-exclusivity. The aforementioned Scientologists and Hindus are indeed exclusive. But also, I can be born Hebraic/Semitic and be expected to be Jewish or Muslim, but I can become Christian or Taoist if I so choose. There is a difference between religion and culture, but not one that should make the two completely separate.

You should know Western mentality by now. If a school teaches Arabic and Arab Culture, then it must be a Jihadi Madrassa.

Does that make AP World History Jihadi?

Why is it that I go to a school where teachers are not allowed to give out any assignments on Jewish holidays, yet no one in the office can put up a goddamned Christmas tree?

Now let's get something straight here, I'm an atheist and damn proud of it. I am vehemently against school prayer and having "under god" in the pledge of allegiance.

But at this point in time, schools aren't secular, they just are aimed at not offending minority religions. And I think that sucks. We need to stop trying to take away Christmas trees from the guidance councilor's office while at the same time banning everyone from doing something significant on Jewish holidays, and for fuck's sake, they have an all-Muslim public school in New York now?!

And while I'm on Christmas, let me say, I do celebrate Christmas. I think it's a great holiday, I like all of the general traditions that go with it, I just don't associate it with Christianity.

But back on topic, I'd like to stop seeing public school systems that claim to be secular when really they just are P.C.

Mine had both last X-Mas.

Maybe your school is just too poor

One difference. Kmart is not government property
So what? If it is not considered proselytizing at Kmart then it would not be considered proselytizing anywhere else either.


Maybe yes maybe no, regardless, the constitution is silent about culture, it is very clear about religion.
Yes - it is quite clear about the expression and freedom of it. There is a world of difference between the establishment of a state religion and the tolerance of religion in general.

Treating religion in the public place as a taboo worse than sex is certainly not healthy.

So what?

The Constitution applies to government.

So what? If it is not considered proselytizing at Kmart then it would not be considered proselytizing anywhere else either.

Who says it's not considered proseltyzing? If they choose to put it there, it may well be proselytizing. The difference is we don't care if Kmart does it. They have the right to.

I'm sure some store managers put up their christmas trees in their stores as a display of their private faith. And that's fine. They have the right to.

They are not the government.


Yes - it is quite clear about the expression and freedom of it. There is a world of difference between the establishment of a state religion and the tolerance of religion in general.

Treating religion in the public place as a taboo worse than sex is certainly not healthy.

Oh but once again there is a world of difference between "in a public place" and "put there by the government". A school teacher can wear a cross, can wear a star, can wear a sari, can make any overt gesture of his faith he or she wants. The teacher as a person is free to do so.

However what is placed on school property is by extention part of the school. And when a specific religious symbol is exclusively placed on school property that is an implicit endorcement of religion. You can put whatever the hell you want on your person related to your faith. Go ahead.

You can even talk about religion. What you can't do is proclaim any religion as true, or better than any other religion. And when you put a specific religion symbol and exclude others, implicitly you do just that.

But not on government property.

Presumably the person meant to say "not religious". Which is a point. Despite the uncultured rhetoric of most politicians, there is no necessary separation of culture and state.

Nope - they said 'cultural' and the meant 'cultural'. Here - see for yourself.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13059606&postcount=57

(hands Cascadia a tomato)

There's a difference between respecting someone's religion and endorsing it.
Christmas trees and hannukiahs (menorahs) aren't allowed.
You get little or no homework over Christmas/Easter and Rosh Hashanah/etc..

Complete coincidence.

Public schools (in the U.S at least) are also closed during the summer.
This is in fact, an insidious plot by the farmers to harness the childpower of their progeny to slave away in the fields, raising enough corn/wheat/maize/corn/squash to fill the World's Largest Underground Silo.

In Texas.

Which is great, because it's totally irrelevant. Pray tell, why does 9th grade history briefly touch up on Ancient Chinese and Indian civilizations, cover the major wars of the Egyptians, the Romans, and the Greeks, and then spend the next 75% of the school year discussing Medieval Europe?
Really? Show me proof. I don't recall learning shit about medieval europe in school beyond shakespear... In fact I learned who Martin Luther King JR. was long before I knew who Martin Luther was. (In fact - I believe the first mention of ML was in college) Maybe time has dulled my senses or curriculum is new. It is a firm assertion you've mad so I'd like to see evidence regardless.

Really? Show me proof. I don't recall learning shit about medieval europe in school beyond shakespear... In fact I learned who Martin Luther King JR. was long before I knew who Martin Luther was. (In fact - I believe the first mention of ML was in college) Maybe time has dulled my senses or curriculum is new. It is a firm assertion you've mad so I'd like to see evidence regardless.

It's definitely the curriculum. We learned ALL about Medieval Europe in my 9th grade History class.

Really? Show me proof. I don't recall learning shit about medieval europe in school beyond shakespear... In fact I learned who Martin Luther King JR. was long before I knew who Martin Luther was. (In fact - I believe the first mention of ML was in college) Maybe time has dulled my senses or curriculum is new. It is a firm assertion you've mad so I'd like to see evidence regardless.

In my school AP world history is the only thing that talks about the East.

CM and Standard are mostly European history.

In my school AP world history is the only thing that talks about the East.

CM and Standard are mostly European history.

Because Europe is where its At, where things be goin' down.

The East is just...like being the neighbour to a guy in a huge mansion on a 40 acre lot. No one crashes your parties.

Secular hypocrisy in the morning...aahhh...

It's definitely the curriculum. We learned ALL about Medieval Europe in my 9th grade History class.

Beyond the anecdotal nature of this - you have mentioned only one class out of 1/13th of your public education years...

I'd be more interested in harder proof - maybe a course syllabus - highschool learning plan, State or district curriculum goals, etc.

Tell me--is it possible that the teachers are not told that they cannot give out assignments on High Holy Days or the like, or that they just decide not to because of the pain-in-the-ass that comes with allowing students to make up work? I can tell you that in my classroom--admittedly at the University level--all I'm required to do is allow students who miss class for religious reasons, be it Jewish High Holy Days or whatever to make up the work. Generally, I tend not to schedule tests or assignments for those days--I'm an atheist, not a dick. But I have the same requirements for students who miss class for athletic events or for other school functions.

Mine had both last X-Mas.

Maybe your school is just too poor
You have (perhaps unintentionally) hit on exactly why religious displays in schools piss me off.

Quite frankly, there are about 15 bazillion things that money should have been spent on first. Books. Computers. Teacher's salaries. Food and lunch programs. Hell, I think that until every single student in the country is given a full scholarship to college, there is absolutely no justification for wasting money on celebrations of superstition.

Tell me--is it possible that the teachers are not told that they cannot give out assignments on High Holy Days or the like, or that they just decide not to because of the pain-in-the-ass that comes with allowing students to make up work? I can tell you that in my classroom--admittedly at the University level--all I'm required to do is allow students who miss class for religious reasons, be it Jewish High Holy Days or whatever to make up the work. Generally, I tend not to schedule tests or assignments for those days--I'm an atheist, not a dick. But I have the same requirements for students who miss class for athletic events or for other school functions.

That's pretty much how I work it. If I know it's a holiday that a lot of students will be out for, be it Muslim, Jewish, Christian or other, I don't plan tests or assignments for the day.

*shrug*

Or perhaps the displays are donated, or the parent teacher association has fund-raised for them, or the students themselves have built them, and as long as everyone's included, no one needs to be a kill-joy.

*shrug*

Or perhaps the displays are donated, or the parent teacher association has fund-raised for them, or the students themselves have built them, and as long as everyone's included, no one needs to be a kill-joy.

Riiiight...

Next you are going to be saying we can all get along if we just try to understand eachother and resolve our differences...

Bah humbug..:)

Riiiight...

Next you are going to be saying we can all get along if we just try to understand eachother and resolve our differences...

Bah humbug..:)

I know. Next we'll be nailing people to trees for having the audacity to point out people should be nice to one another.

*shrug*

Or perhaps the displays are donated, or the parent teacher association has fund-raised for them, or the students themselves have built them, and as long as everyone's included, no one needs to be a kill-joy.

Yes. I know at my old high school the principal bought the faux christmas tree, menorah, and kwanza....thingie that they use every year out of his own pocket.