NationStates Jolt Archive

So I was on facebook the other day, looking at some groups some of my friends had joined, and I saw one that really struck my eye. Its name was Shut down jewwatch.com. Intrigued, I clicked on it to see what it was like. It described a simply HORRID site, full of hatred and potentially damaging to the entire jewish populace!

So naturally I decided to look into it a little more. What did I discover? A collection of large collection of articles dealing with anti-zionist issues. I even read the guys little splurge about the site, speaking about how he was against Isreal and Zionism, he was a 'hater of the jews' (paraphrasing, you'll see why). So I told the group, listen, I'm sure this is an awful place and I agree that racism is bad. But shut down this site? That's censorship, which is worse than racism in my book.

So I saw the rebuttal, something about holocaust denying is a crime and so is racism, and noticed that they had succeeded in shutting the site down.


So NSG, what do you think. Is racism worse than censorship? Or vice versa?

Racism is idiotic ignorance, but censorship is evil.

Fight racism by discrediting racists. Let the voice of the ignorant speak against itself.

^ Agree.

I don't trust anyone (especially the Government) to rule what is permissible to say. Free speech must be protected at all costs.

As your friends who made the group, well, they are free to express their opinions but I doubt it will do much. On moral principle through, I support removing the site.

They actually did succeed in shutting it down, they even spoke to the GoDaddy president.

As long as it isn't a threat to national security, it's fine by me. And it sounds like he (the guy who runs the site) will be in the corner with his two or three Klan member buddies for the rest of his life, and will be pretty insignificant through his life and die a forgotten man.

As your friends who made the group, well, they are free to express their opinions but I doubt it will do much. On moral principle through, I support removing the site.

Just look at Fred Phelps and his Christian hate site godhatesfags.com

It discredits itself. Just by looking at it you can see its total idiocy. Censor it? Never. It's none of the government business. Let the moron speak, it only means more and more people will know he's a moron.

Censorship. Racism takes care of itself (I know you have no idea what I mean by that .. o well). -- > Censorship duct tapes everyone and everything. Match.

TKing is fun. Doin' it for the LULZ!

Censorship is suposed to be illegal in the United States.

By publicly fighting these people, you give them a platform and level of public exposure they could never dream of getting through simply being crazy and/or annoying. Ignore them and get on with your non-Jew-hating lifestyle, eventually they'll end up alone and forgotten, like everyone else who ever lived.

Racism is far, far worse. But shutting down a website is pointless and probably counterproductive.

Both are shameful, and racism is arguably better served in the long run by censorship than by the lack of it.

Racism is far, far worse. But shutting down a website is pointless and probably counterproductive.

But why is it worse? I've heard arguments for why censorships worse, lets get some counter arguments.

By publicly fighting these people, you give them a platform and level of public exposure they could never dream of getting through simply being crazy and/or annoying. Ignore them and get on with your non-Jew-hating lifestyle, eventually they'll end up alone and forgotten, like everyone else who ever lived.


Phelps? Who the hell knows of Phelps gang(other than those who actually look for shit, that's NOT spewed on CNN MSNBC FOX etc etc)? Not many! I could go right now and speak of him to a class and hopefully ONE will know who his clan is(but he is no threat -- I'm just talking about awareness here).

I mentioned Steven Hawking (when speaking of paraplegics in my nursing class) .. and I got a look like I was a freakin alien( and the teacher looked offended- but shes cool,, no hard feelings). The only one in the class that even knew who he was.. was a Filipino (Asian). The rest only knew Superman(Christopher Reeve). No they must not know of Hawking to know how to teach nursing, but it just shows alot .. imo.

I get to hear just how much these frakkin people believe every damn thing they get from the 'news' stations. It's frightening. I am not surprised a damn bit that GWB made it into office 2 terms now.

It's not that these people are stupid, most are not.. it's that they do not have/take the time to delve deeper. Part of me lets them off the hook for that, part of me wants to hang them.. figuratively speaking of course.

They are just uninformed. I'd venture to say that probably over 80% (I'm being kind here) of the people on this earth do not .. whether its from cannot or just will not.. know what the hell is actually going on.

But why is it worse?

Because of the immense harm it causes to its victims.

Marginalization, oppression, inequality, murder, etc.

I've heard arguments for why censorships worse

I haven't. I've heard arguments as to why censorship shouldn't be used to fight racism.

No one yet has explained how the harm caused by censorship is actually greater than the harm caused by racism.

Their ideas are clearly debated and soundly defeated each time they come up.

And do their opinions change?

I don't know that racism is worse than censorship or not.

However, there is no point censoring racism, as many people upthread have pointed out already.

There are many people who espouse racist ideas. Some even frequent this forum. Their ideas are clearly debated and soundly defeated each time they come up. Actually, a few people do that, while the rest of us make fun of them.

And in an increasingly multicultural world, the free exchange of ideas will be seen as vitally more important than the colour of our skin.

I don't know that racism is worse than censorship or not.

However, there is no point censoring racism, as many people upthread have pointed out already.

There are many people who espouse racist ideas. Some even frequent this forum. Their ideas are clearly debated and soundly defeated each time they come up. Actually, a few people do that, while the rest of us make fun of them.

And in an increasingly multicultural world, the free exchange of ideas will be seen as vitally more important than the colour of our skin.


That's a FAT vote for Censorship being the mean green.

Click Stand;13059109']You can fight racism easy just get a crowbar

Isn't that censorship?

Because of the immense harm it causes to its victims.
Marginalization, oppression, inequality, murder, etc.
I haven't. I've heard arguments as to why censorship shouldn't be used to fight racism.
No one yet has explained how the harm caused by censorship is actually greater than the harm caused by racism.

Perhaps I'll give it a shot then.

Censorship causes irreversible damage to the government that puts it in place. It's the old 'give them an inch and they'll take a mile' in reverse, once a government decides whats right or wrong to say, what's to stop them from changing it?

Nothing, and if dystopian novels of the future are any evidence of what could happen, I'd prefer some idiots spouting hateful things on the internet (or the streets) then that route.

Isn't that censorship?

Naw that's just pissed off with a crow bar.

Censorship by far. You can fight racism easy just get a crowbar, but fighting censorship is nearly impossible because you and your family get kidnapped in the night and are never heard from again.:p

I said racism, only because it is an ideology that can lead to other bad things (such as censorship). Censorship, although often wrong, is usually a sign of an oppressive government, not the start of one.

once a government decides whats right or wrong to say, what's to stop them from changing it?

Once the government decides to arrest people for some activities, what's to stop them from arresting people for anything?

Nothing, and if dystopian novels of the future are any evidence of what could happen, I'd prefer some idiots spouting hateful things on the internet (or the streets) then that route.

But then you are comparing the far extreme of censorship to a very minuscule example of racism.

I said racism, only because it is an ideology that can lead to other bad things (such as censorship). Censorship, although often wrong, is usually a sign of an oppressive government, not the start of one.

I disagree .. I think of Censorship as being much higher on the 'totem' pole. But actually.. the LACK of information is the first happening. But how many regular everyday working folk are going to find out about the 'lack of information'? You have to be looking to find something you're lacking.

.. Or ofcourse .. someone fuck up and spill it.

Once the government decides to arrest people for some activities, what's to stop them from arresting people for anything?
But then you are comparing the far extreme of censorship to a very minuscule example of racism.

I suppose your right, my arguments were crap.

Alright, how bout this:

I'd rather that some people are oppressed than everyone. Yeah, that's better.

No one yet has explained how the harm caused by censorship is actually greater than the harm caused by racism.

If I may, what many people have alluded to but few have actually outright said is that censorship rarely serves it's intended purpose, and more often that not actually works against it.

Once you censor something, you are giving it credence-mystique and weight. Instead of a citizenry being driven back by censorship, they are drawn to it like flies to sugar water. What was once the preoccupation of a crazy old guy on a street-corner becomes an "underground" movement and then gains momentum simply because it has been denied.

Drag ignorance out into the light and it dissolves, shove it into the dark and it festers in the petri dish of your citizens curiosity.

Blueblood;13059238']If I may, what many people have alluded to but few have actually outright said is that censorship rarely serves it's intended purpose, and more often that not actually works against it.

Right. This by no means suggests that censorship is worse than racism.

Racism is idiotic ignorance, but censorship is evil.

Racism isn't evil too?

Fight racism by discrediting racists. Let the voice of the ignorant speak against itself.

That doesn't work but, because racists are stupid that they can't/won't comprehend and accept valid arguments against their bullshit.

They actually did succeed in shutting it down, they even spoke to the GoDaddy president.

It's a double edged sword. Free speech must be protected. On the other hand if I owned a hosting firm, then the power over what to host and what to refuse, is mine.

So I'm glad the site is closed, but I hope that the hosting company closed it not because of fears of any sort of backlash, but because they don't want that sort of crap on their servers.

Censorship is tricky business

There need be no trickery involved. Don't censor anything, end of problem.:D

Blueblood;13059238']
What was once the preoccupation of a crazy old guy on a street-corner ...

And what if that crazy old guy is a charismatic, well mannered, and popular member of the government who supports the extermination of people with one eyebrow?


Blueblood;13059238']
Drag ignorance out into the light and it dissolves...
Or it can become status quo.

Censorship is tricky business

Well if JW is going to be closed down for it's obvious antisemitism, then the Jewish Virtual Dictionary should also be closed, some of it's 'information' borders on anti-Arab/Muslim racism in the extreme.

Political censorship is always worst then voicing an opinion. Censorship is an action that limits freedom of speech. People will have opinions regardless of whether it is censored or not, and ideas will always spread whether censored or not.

And what if that crazy old guy is a charismatic, well mannered, and popular member of the government who supports the extermination of people with one eyebrow?

Then you have made him a martyr by silencing him. We are well aware of the atrocities of racism, but when you combine the two, racism is only served. Whatever racist activities exist are assisted when they become targeted by censorship.

And for the purpose of the debate, institutionalized racism isn't what we're talking about. If we were discussing institutionalization, then the gov't wouldn't care to censor it anyway.

But on the other hand, I am not against censorpship for the State must protect itself by any means. There has never been freedom of speech and will never be. At least here, in continental Europe. And guess what? I got used to it, I know what I can say freely and for what I can be put into prison for years. Most people (including me) even censor themselves, and have to think twice before saying anything. See? Censorship is not that evil, people will eventually get used to it.

And do their opinions change?

I don't think the opinions of most racist people change when confronted with rational debate, but I do think that if an impressionable youth were to witness such a debate, they would come away with a clearer and better idea as to why racism is a useless belief.

Depends who shut down the site. If it was a government body then it is censorship, if it was the ISP then it isn't.

Racism and censorship are each very broad issues.

Censorship can range from everything from not letting people under 18 purchase porn to the sort of censorship we see in totalitarian dictatorships. Also, censorship can vary depending upon circumstances. Pretty much every military self censors itself during wartime so info does not get to the enemy or affect morale. But in peacetime we do not see as much if any of that.

Racism is also a pretty broad topic. There is good and bad racism. Exploring differences in the races in terms of likelihood of genetic diseases or gentetc advantages is a racist undertaking but certainly not one that anybody would object to. On the opposite end of the spectrum there is racially based violence and even genocide.

It is tough if not impossible to say which one is worse. Instead I think it is important to recognize where an action or idea is on a sliding scale and see how far along the scale we are comfortable treading.

I for one think that if the psychologists think that porn should not be viewed by people in their early period of sexual development, then we need censorship as a safeguard for kids. I think that everybody should be able to post or discuss any idea as long as it is not the sort that looks to organize people to do crimes or hurt people.

I do not think that anybody should have their internet site shut down for discussing racist ideas. However, if the site encourages or attempts to coordinate violence against people of a certain race for race based reasons, I think this should be shut down.

I would have no problem with a law that forbids stating things as fact in public places while they in truth are opinions or baseless nonsense.

That would still allow people to say whatever they like - they would just have to be able to either back it up or make it very clear that what they say is merely an opinion or baseless thought.

I would have no problem with a law that forbids stating things as fact in public places while they in truth are opinions or baseless nonsense.

That would still allow people to say whatever they like - they would just have to be able to either back it up or make it very clear that what they say is merely an opinion or baseless thought.

This would have a chilling effect on discussion. If it was somehow a violation of the law to say "Coke is better than Pepsi" without any evidence to support the claim, we would be screwed. The courts are chock full of cases all ready we do not need any more laws on the subject of what people can lawfully say.

I want all the racists, homophobes and other various assholes to be able to speak their "minds" freely. That way I know who to watch. And who not to associate with. I'd like them to all wear signs proclaiming they're views on these subjects. Call it "The Asshole Identification Project."

I cannot accurately reflect my opinion in this poll, as I believe that racism and censorship are equally bad.

I could neither condone racism, nor censor the speech of racists. I consider either act to be abhorrent to individual liberty.

This is an example on one of the few subjects that most people here on NationStates can agree on. Most of us view that censorship is worse (myself included.)

Come to think of it, most of us agree on a lot of things, its just that miscommunication and defensiveness compound and complicate the problem. *has stunning realization*

As for a law
that forbids stating things as fact in public places while they in truth are opinions or baseless nonsense
that would impede on free speech. Also there is that terribly small problem of defining everything as opinion/baseless nonsense.

^ Agree.

I don't trust anyone (especially the Government) to rule what is permissible to say. Free speech must be protected at all costs.

I agree wholeheartedly.

This would have a chilling effect on discussion. If it was somehow a violation of the law to say "Coke is better than Pepsi" without any evidence to support the claim, we would be screwed. The courts are chock full of cases all ready we do not need any more laws on the subject of what people can lawfully say.

"I think coke is better than pepsi" really is not that much more effort to say ;)
We can limit prosecution however to people addressing more than say... 20others? That gives friends the freedom to speak freely, but will hamper tv performances, public parades of hatespeech and Fred Phelps church services.

Blueblood;13059238']If I may, what many people have alluded to but few have actually outright said is that censorship rarely serves it's intended purpose, and more often that not actually works against it.

Once you censor something, you are giving it credence-mystique and weight. Instead of a citizenry being driven back by censorship, they are drawn to it like flies to sugar water. What was once the preoccupation of a crazy old guy on a street-corner becomes an "underground" movement and then gains momentum simply because it has been denied.

Drag ignorance out into the light and it dissolves, shove it into the dark and it festers in the petri dish of your citizens curiosity.

Yes exactly, history has taught us that by denying something to the masses, you do not make the masses drop it and forget. Take prohibition, take the waste of money that is the 'war on drugs' data is no differant.

Blueblood;13059238']Once you censor something, you are giving it credence-mystique and weight. Instead of a citizenry being driven back by censorship, they are drawn to it like flies to sugar water. What was once the preoccupation of a crazy old guy on a street-corner becomes an "underground" movement and then gains momentum simply because it has been denied.

I must agree. I seriously doubt whether anything by the Marquis de Sade would still be in print if it hadn't been for the authorities' many attempts to shut him up.

Blueblood;13060356']And for the purpose of the debate, institutionalized racism isn't what we're talking about. If we were discussing institutionalization, then the gov't wouldn't care to censor it anyway.

Then perhaps I used a bad example. The point I was trying to get across is that not all flamboyant racists (no matter how far fetched their ideas are) are wild eyed hobos.
Some are very well educated, well mannered, and can easily influence hordes of people.

The way I see it, censorship doesn't abolish racist thoughts. It makes them socially unacceptable. People of influence (Intellectuals, pop-culture icons and whatnot) who might otherwise be constantly talking about the terrors of international Jewry, vicious Asians and blood-thirsty Africans will keep their mouths shut and their opinions to themselves. Thereby, not exerting their influence on the rest of the populace.
People who might otherwise act upon racist credos and ideals and go off pulling a kristalnacht every Tuesday, won't do so.

Society dictates society, government does not. Any deviation is completely against the advancement of said society.

People are entitled to their views even if its racist like Nazis but if u censorzie them They Will Take To The Streets Then What, SHOOT 'EM? See if some one shut me down every time i said Wetb**k or N**er I am Sorry if I Offended any one their but i dont use these words often OR I ALSO SUPPORT A NEW Confederate States of America but wat would u do if u said or did stuff racist and they sut u down instantly. U would retaliate right. Like me if they yell at me saying racist. it agravates me. so no censorship i hope this post is not deleted because thats CENSORSHIP... So which is worse me sayin u no or yall censoring me... THINK, DO, DONT CENSOR BUT ALWAYS KEEP YOUR VIEWS IN SIGHT DONT LET THEM GET RED OF THEM. SO THINK.

Censorship is worse.