NationStates Jolt Archive

But behold - we are NOT talking about Christian creationists or diehard Sharia fans. This time it is Hinduism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6996621.stm

So.. are they right ? Is it wrong to say their gods are myths ? Does the same hold true for Jesus or Allah ?

Resignation is a bit extreme. A simple apology would be fine. I'd say the same if the person in question made the same remarks about Jesus or any Christian religious item you care to name.
If the comment had been something more extreme, IE: "All Hindus are idiots and should convert to Christianity/Islam or be put to the sword" THAT might call for resignation, but as it is, I'm willing to believe that this was just a little slip-up.

Resignation is a bit extreme. A simple apology would be fine.

But an apology for.. what ? For trusting observational evidence instead of belief ?

This is why religion can unhealthy; it makes people believe in the most ridiculous things. I mean, a bridge supported by monkeys? :rolleyes:

So.. are they right ? Is it wrong to say their gods are myths ? Does the same hold true for Jesus or Allah ?

no, it's not wrong imo.

This is why religion can unhealthy; it makes people believe in the most ridiculous things. I mean, a bridge supported by monkeys? :rolleyes:

That really isn't a big problem, it's a bit stupid but I don't think that it has hurt a lot of people. Making people believe that homosexuality should be punished for instance is far more unhealthy.

That really isn't a big problem, it's a bit stupid but I don't think that it has hurt a lot of people. Making people believe that homosexuality should be punished for instance is far more unhealthy.

But when you cannot tolerate someone disputing a part of you religion with facts then there is a problem. After all, all this minister did was repeat scientific facts about the land connected Sri Lanka to India.

Now she has to resign because of it.

But when you cannot tolerate someone disputing a part of you religion with facts then there is a problem. After all, all this minister did was repeat scientific facts about the land connected Sri Lanka to India.

Now she has to resign because of it.

yeah, you're right.

If I ever become a god(my resume is on file), I hope I become a hindu god. Imagine twelve arms to pie and/or wedgie with. :)

If I ever become a god(my resume is on file), I hope I become a hindu god. Imagine twelve arms to pie and/or wedgie with. :)

Not to mention the army of monkeys.

If I ever become a god(my resume is on file), I hope I become a hindu god. Imagine twelve arms to pie and/or wedgie with. :)

I can already imagine the statue... :p

Any religion that gains a majority hold of a country's population will inevitably develop a group of fundamentalist assholes in the style of a malignant tumor. Any religion. Give a country where almost everyone was Wiccan and you'd start seeing pagan assholes too.

Considering the culture, cultural value of that area and their beliefs, I would've thougth the minister would look for a better solution. try to find one that the people would be happy with.

so if she resigns/gets fired, It's not because of Religious Fundamentalists, but her lack and disreguard for the people's beliefs and customs.

Considering the culture, cultural value of that area and their beliefs, I would've thougth the minister would look for a better solution. try to find one that the people would be happy with.

so if she resigns/gets fired, It's not because of Religious Fundamentalists, but her lack and disreguard for the people's beliefs and customs.

The thing that is being criticised is the statement that there is no historical or scientific evidence that the bridge was created by the avatar Rama - a statement that is completely factual - and not so much that the wishes of the locals were ignored.
I do agree that the second would be a better reason to offer resignation though.

Mmm... No one here to criticize Hindus for being "backwards", etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam?

Mmm... No one here to criticize Hindus for being "backwards", etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam?

Well, we are, frequently. Just like every large aggregate of people, we will occasionally act in ways that are stupid and backwards.

This, and the train article from yesterday, are both classic examples. And you really, really can't make that stuff up.

The thing that is being criticised is the statement that there is no historical or scientific evidence that the bridge was created by the avatar Rama - a statement that is completely factual - and not so much that the wishes of the locals were ignored.
I do agree that the second would be a better reason to offer resignation though.

It doesn't have to have Historical or Scientific evidence for the people to assign value on a place.

Chinaman's Hat in Hawaii is considered a landmark. why? because it's an island shaped like a hat worn by the Chinese Planation workers? because of some childhood legend that a giantic chinese worker sleeps under it?

but the locals like the place and they assign value to it.

and if the locals there don't want development on Adam's Bridge, then the Minister should've tried to find a solution that the people would be happy with.

So.. are they right ? Is it wrong to say their gods are myths ? Does the same hold true for Jesus or Allah ?
Their Gods are myths. Mind you, so is our "natural process"; both are narratives designed to explain. What they and we alike fail to appreciate is the value of myth independent of its attempts to describe "reality" in any sort of concrete manner, and that differences in this description do not necessarily have to create opposition.

It's not in the minister's place to say this, but blasphemy is subjective. The Hindus should acknowledge that to state something contrary to one's system of understanding does not make it acknowledgably immoral or incorrect. As, of course, should we.

It doesn't have to have Historical or Scientific evidence for the people to assign value on a place.

Fully agreed. But it does need such evidence if the locals wish to complain about others saying it doesn't have.

I am severely insulted by the offer to resign! I mean, for quoting scientific evidence. Ffs! Are these protesters brainwashed?!? Poor India!

Fully agreed. But it does need such evidence if the locals wish to complain about others saying it doesn't have.

but that's not the point.

the point is the Minister bascially said "your beliefs don't matter because there is no scentific proof of what your religion said."

Instead of trying to find a solution that would make the locals happy, she insulted them and their beliefs.

on the plus side, I think she relized her mistake when she withdrew the report, but by then, the damage was already done.

I am severely insulted by the offer to resign! I mean, for quoting scientific evidence. Ffs! Are these protesters brainwashed?!? Poor India!

Most people (intelligent, educated people included and perhaps especially so) are brainwashed, and few are aware of it. Almost all of them deny it.

Well, we are, frequently. Just like every large aggregate of people, we will occasionally act in ways that are stupid and backwards.

This, and the train article from yesterday, are both classic examples. And you really, really can't make that stuff up.

What train article?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=538288

but that's not the point.

No, it is.

[the point is the Minister bascially said "your beliefs don't matter because there is no scentific proof of what your religion said."

Again: that is not what the commotion is about. It is about the report stating that there is no scientific proof and historical evidence, not about how she used that to dismiss the wishes of the locals. It is about the "blasphemy" of daring to suggest that the holy stories of Rama are not factual, not about her (or at least the people working for her) being an insensitive jerk.

blolding mine.


.. of what pray tell?

No scentific proof and historical evidence of what?

Damn, you were in before the edit ;)
Of Rama having existed and being responsible for the building of said "bridge".

Most people (intelligent, educated people included and perhaps especially so) are brainwashed, and few are aware of it. Almost all of them deny it.
The interesting thing is that "intellectual integrity" is, in that context, taken to be a virtue. We're brainwashed into believing that the brainwashing is a good thing without even realising that brainwashing occurs in either place. Talk about Triplethink.

No, it is.



Again: that is not what the commotion is about. It is about the report stating that there is no scientific proof and historical evidence, not about how she used that to dismiss the wishes of the locals. It is about the "blasphemy" of daring to suggest that the holy stories of Rama are not factual, not about her (or at least the people working for her) being an insensitive jerk.

Damn, you were in before the edit ;)
Of Rama having existed and being responsible for the building of said "bridge".
yeah, then I saw your edit and deleted the post. :headbang:

so what was the purpose of that report?

obviously the artical inferred that there was some opposition to the building of the canal at that spot.

the people hold that spot as a special 'holy' ground even tho there is no scientific or historical proof to back up that claim.

so she pulls out a report/study that says there is NO proof that Ram Setu is nothing but a natural formation.

instead of trying to find a solution people can be happy with (finding ways to preserve as much of Ram Setu as possible, finding another location while informing the people that the costs would be greater, etc...) she insulted their beliefs. That may not be her intent, infact, the fact that she withdrew the report shows she didn't want to insult them. but she did nonetheless.

That is what's behind the commtion. the results of her releasing that report. and she's willing to resign to help quell that commotion.

The interesting thing is that "intellectual integrity" is, in that context, taken to be a virtue. We're brainwashed into believing that the brainwashing is a good thing without even realising that brainwashing occurs in either place. Talk about Triplethink.

Precisely. :)

Mmm... No one here to criticize Hindus for being "backwards", etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam?

That's because Hindus don't behead people or blow themselves up.

They just throw themselves onto a funeral pyre.

That's because Hindus don't behead people or blow themselves up.

They just throw themselves onto a funeral pyre.

Not entirely true. They sometimes light train cars full of Muslim pilgrims on fire.

I'm currently hunting down the source article, though I know for a fact it happened.

Not entirely true. They sometimes light train cars full of Muslim pilgrims on fire.

I'm currently hunting down the source article, though I know for a fact it happened.

Probably because the article's titled something like "Heroic Hindus stop Terrorist Train Convoy."

Probably because the article's titled something like "Heroic Hindus stop Terrorist Train Convoy."

Actually, no. Though it'd be an old article. It occurred shortly after a series of bomb blasts in Mumbai in the summer of 2k3. So it'd be an ooold article.

Not entirely true. They sometimes light train cars full of Muslim pilgrims on fire.

I'm currently hunting down the source article, though I know for a fact it happened.

oohhhhh i thought that stuff only happened during the partition.

i guess its hard to give up long standing grievances and hatreds.

Any religion that gains a majority hold of a country's population will inevitably develop a group of fundamentalist assholes in the style of a malignant tumor. Any religion. Give a country where almost everyone was Wiccan and you'd start seeing pagan assholes too.

Wiccans don't need a majority to be pricks. ;)

They just throw themselves onto a funeral pyre.

:rolleyes: The number of sati instances in the past few decades would be a handful. Look it up.

Oh and sati became a norm in NW regions (read on Rajput Jauhar) due to womenfolk not wanting to be taken into harems/slaves by invading soldiers from religion of peace.

On the topic,

I support the project just because of the immense value it brings...economic value in terms of shortened distances...development of Tuticorin port, environmental benefits of reduced fossil fuel usage, obvious naval advantages etc.

The govt should have just said that the bridge seems to be a natural one and not man-made and STOPPED it at that. There was NO NEED to comment on the existence or non-existence of Rama or any other God for that matter.

The govt subsidizes Haj pilgrimmage of muslims on the assumption that Allah exists. I wonder where the govt proved the existence of Allah as opposed to Ram.

It is this hypocrisy that is irritating.

Plus that minister, Ambika Soni, is a christian. That probably riled up people asking for her resignation.

Not entirely true. They sometimes light train cars full of Muslim pilgrims on fire.

I'm currently hunting down the source article, though I know for a fact it happened.

You got it ulta (assuming u r hinting at Godhra incident).

It doesn't matter what religion, they all have extremists and they are all dilluted by some wierd driving force about them that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

ARCHAEOLOGIST: Actually 'Adams bridge' is a natural formation of sandstone, there is no evidence to suggest that a god named Ram built it with an army of monkeys, or that he even existed at all
COURT: Ok, developments approved
*RIOT*

Nobody set out to insult hinduism, they put themselves on the railroad tracks of reality by trying to block a real world development with an ancient myth. Hindus, like all religious hairbrains, should shut the fuck up and believe their inane nonsense in silence.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH:
Any religion that gains a majority hold of a country's population will inevitably develop a group of fundamentalist assholes in the style of a malignant tumor. Any religion. Give a country where almost everyone was Wiccan and you'd start seeing pagan assholes too.
The religion doesn't even need to gain a majority in a country. It just needs its own critical mass of members. For some, that can be a relatively small group.

Their Gods are myths. Mind you, so is our "natural process"; both are narratives designed to explain. What they and we alike fail to appreciate is the value of myth independent of its attempts to describe "reality" in any sort of concrete manner, and that differences in this description do not necessarily have to create opposition.

It's not in the minister's place to say this, but blasphemy is subjective. The Hindus should acknowledge that to state something contrary to one's system of understanding does not make it acknowledgably immoral or incorrect. As, of course, should we.
I totally agree. Thanks for saying this.

<snip>

The govt should have just said that the bridge seems to be a natural one and not man-made and STOPPED it at that. There was NO NEED to comment on the existence or non-existence of Rama or any other God for that matter.

<snip>

Plus that minister, Ambika Soni, is a christian. That probably riled up people asking for her resignation.
I agree with the first paragraph completely. As to the second, that is a symptom of too much concern over religious divisions, in my opinion, not a specifically Indian thing at all, but certainly an issue in India. In that context, it should have been a good reason for that minister to keep her mouth shut about Hindu beliefs.

It doesn't matter what religion, they all have extremists and they are all dilluted by some wierd driving force about them that makes no logical sense whatsoever.
Absolutely, and this kind of fundamentalist extremism is not exclusive to religion, either. I personally think it might be a mental disorder or personality disorder, but that's just my opinion. In any event, religion is just one of its most common avenues of expression.



QUOTED AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE FUEL THAT DRIVES FUNDAMENTALIST/EXTREMIST FIRES:
ARCHAEOLOGIST: Actually 'Adams bridge' is a natural formation of sandstone, there is no evidence to suggest that a god named Ram built it with an army of monkeys, or that he even existed at all
COURT: Ok, developments approved
*RIOT*

Nobody set out to insult hinduism, they put themselves on the railroad tracks of reality by trying to block a real world development with an ancient myth. Hindus, like all religious hairbrains, should shut the fuck up and believe their inane nonsense in silence.
Nice going, GPN. Thanks for showing so succinctly why there are such things as paranoid religious extremists and why we have such things as religious wars and religion trying to force its way into politics and members of majority religions that already have lots of power and money crying that they are being persecuted. It's all down to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence#Attacks_on_Muslims

Edit: I was off by a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence#Attacks_on_Muslims

Edit: I was off by a year.

Given recent media climate if those attacks happened just now I would not be surprised if someone (whether a blog or even a news outlet) spun them as "Victories in the War on Terror."

So.. are they right ? Is it wrong to say their gods are myths ? Does the same hold true for Jesus or Allah ?

do you actually know anything about either Christianity or Islam beyond the word Jesus or...Allah?..Muslims call their pedophile Mohammed mate...get it right.

So.. are they right ? Is it wrong to say their gods are myths ? Does the same hold true for Jesus or Allah ?

do you actually know anything about either Christianity or Islam beyond the word Jesus or...Allah?..Muslims call Islams only prophet "Mohammed"..he had 9 wives the youngest of which was 6 years old..he was 60 when he married her..and she was his favourite..sick..but true..

what is also true is that..i am not a hindu..so it does not mean anything to me what they say about hinduisim..i dont care..the BBC is more or less Al Jezera as they work very closley..many of its reporters..left to work for AL Jezera..and the BBC trains Palistinian Journalists in victimhood..

if you an indian..then you can comment on this and be taken seriously...otherwise its just stupid to do so..daft post..no offence

So.. are they right ? Is it wrong to say their gods are myths ? Does the same hold true for Jesus or Allah ?

do you actually know anything about either Christianity or Islam beyond the word Jesus or...Allah?..Muslims call their pedophile Mohammed mate...get it right.

"Durka durka durka ?" (cookie for the reference)

Seriously - the existence of the person Mohammed is an historical fact. He after all fathered many children, is mentioned by many contemporaries in writing and has left a corpse behind - so saying there is no historical evidence for him would be a bit silly. Debating if he was divinely inspired and that he truly did everything people/writings claim he did however would not be.

Jesus and Allah are not so certain to have existed/exist. Which is why I picked them as examples.

I fail to see how disproving=insult.

Mmm... No one here to criticize Hindus for being "backwards", etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam?

HUMANS are "backwards, et c. et c. ad nauseam"! so i can't see any point in singling out any one faction of them more then another.

=^^=
.../\...

I fail to see how disproving=insult.

You are reasoning from an empirical point of view. "Look at the facts, then devise a hypothesis that fits the facts".
Fundamentalist believers don't. Their point of view is "My belief is true, and things that contradict it are false." They know it is true. It is fundamental.