NationStates Jolt Archive


Soldiers pwn Patraeus

Unabashed Greed
13-09-2007, 16:57
Just reminding people out there that Patraeus is, in fact, a lying sycophant (as his boss, Adm Fallon agrees (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/12/webb-fallon)), and this op ed piece from the NYT, written by seven soldiers reflects their direct knowledge and experiences in this war of agression.

The War as We Saw It

VIEWED from Iraq at the tail end of a 15-month deployment, the political debate in Washington is indeed surreal. Counterinsurgency is, by definition, a competition between insurgents and counterinsurgents for the control and support of a population. To believe that Americans, with an occupying force that long ago outlived its reluctant welcome, can win over a recalcitrant local population and win this counterinsurgency is far-fetched. As responsible infantrymen and noncommissioned officers with the 82nd Airborne Division soon heading back home, we are skeptical of recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable and feel it has neglected the mounting civil, political and social unrest we see every day. (Obviously, these are our personal views and should not be seen as official within our chain of command.)

The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework. Yes, we are militarily superior, but our successes are offset by failures elsewhere. What soldiers call the “battle space” remains the same, with changes only at the margins. It is crowded with actors who do not fit neatly into boxes: Sunni extremists, Al Qaeda terrorists, Shiite militiamen, criminals and armed tribes. This situation is made more complex by the questionable loyalties and Janus-faced role of the Iraqi police and Iraqi Army, which have been trained and armed at United States taxpayers’ expense.

A few nights ago, for example, we witnessed the death of one American soldier and the critical wounding of two others when a lethal armor-piercing explosive was detonated between an Iraqi Army checkpoint and a police one. Local Iraqis readily testified to American investigators that Iraqi police and Army officers escorted the triggermen and helped plant the bomb. These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families.

As many grunts will tell you, this is a near-routine event. Reports that a majority of Iraqi Army commanders are now reliable partners can be considered only misleading rhetoric. The truth is that battalion commanders, even if well meaning, have little to no influence over the thousands of obstinate men under them, in an incoherent chain of command, who are really loyal only to their militias.

Similarly, Sunnis, who have been underrepresented in the new Iraqi armed forces, now find themselves forming militias, sometimes with our tacit support. Sunnis recognize that the best guarantee they may have against Shiite militias and the Shiite-dominated government is to form their own armed bands. We arm them to aid in our fight against Al Qaeda.

However, while creating proxies is essential in winning a counterinsurgency, it requires that the proxies are loyal to the center that we claim to support. Armed Sunni tribes have indeed become effective surrogates, but the enduring question is where their loyalties would lie in our absence. The Iraqi government finds itself working at cross purposes with us on this issue because it is justifiably fearful that Sunni militias will turn on it should the Americans leave.

In short, we operate in a bewildering context of determined enemies and questionable allies, one where the balance of forces on the ground remains entirely unclear. (In the course of writing this article, this fact became all too clear: one of us, Staff Sergeant Murphy, an Army Ranger and reconnaissance team leader, was shot in the head during a “time-sensitive target acquisition mission” on Aug. 12; he is expected to survive and is being flown to a military hospital in the United States.) While we have the will and the resources to fight in this context, we are effectively hamstrung because realities on the ground require measures we will always refuse — namely, the widespread use of lethal and brutal force.

Given the situation, it is important not to assess security from an American-centered perspective. The ability of, say, American observers to safely walk down the streets of formerly violent towns is not a resounding indicator of security. What matters is the experience of the local citizenry and the future of our counterinsurgency. When we take this view, we see that a vast majority of Iraqis feel increasingly insecure and view us as an occupation force that has failed to produce normalcy after four years and is increasingly unlikely to do so as we continue to arm each warring side.

Coupling our military strategy to an insistence that the Iraqis meet political benchmarks for reconciliation is also unhelpful. The morass in the government has fueled impatience and confusion while providing no semblance of security to average Iraqis. Leaders are far from arriving at a lasting political settlement. This should not be surprising, since a lasting political solution will not be possible while the military situation remains in constant flux.

The Iraqi government is run by the main coalition partners of the Shiite-dominated United Iraqi Alliance, with Kurds as minority members. The Shiite clerical establishment formed the alliance to make sure its people did not succumb to the same mistake as in 1920: rebelling against the occupying Western force (then the British) and losing what they believed was their inherent right to rule Iraq as the majority. The qualified and reluctant welcome we received from the Shiites since the invasion has to be seen in that historical context. They saw in us something useful for the moment.

Now that moment is passing, as the Shiites have achieved what they believe is rightfully theirs. Their next task is to figure out how best to consolidate the gains, because reconciliation without consolidation risks losing it all. Washington’s insistence that the Iraqis correct the three gravest mistakes we made — de-Baathification, the dismantling of the Iraqi Army and the creation of a loose federalist system of government — places us at cross purposes with the government we have committed to support.

Political reconciliation in Iraq will occur, but not at our insistence or in ways that meet our benchmarks. It will happen on Iraqi terms when the reality on the battlefield is congruent with that in the political sphere. There will be no magnanimous solutions that please every party the way we expect, and there will be winners and losers. The choice we have left is to decide which side we will take. Trying to please every party in the conflict — as we do now — will only ensure we are hated by all in the long run.

At the same time, the most important front in the counterinsurgency, improving basic social and economic conditions, is the one on which we have failed most miserably. Two million Iraqis are in refugee camps in bordering countries. Close to two million more are internally displaced and now fill many urban slums. Cities lack regular electricity, telephone services and sanitation. “Lucky” Iraqis live in gated communities barricaded with concrete blast walls that provide them with a sense of communal claustrophobia rather than any sense of security we would consider normal.

In a lawless environment where men with guns rule the streets, engaging in the banalities of life has become a death-defying act. Four years into our occupation, we have failed on every promise, while we have substituted Baath Party tyranny with a tyranny of Islamist, militia and criminal violence. When the primary preoccupation of average Iraqis is when and how they are likely to be killed, we can hardly feel smug as we hand out care packages. As an Iraqi man told us a few days ago with deep resignation, “We need security, not free food.”

In the end, we need to recognize that our presence may have released Iraqis from the grip of a tyrant, but that it has also robbed them of their self-respect. They will soon realize that the best way to regain dignity is to call us what we are — an army of occupation — and force our withdrawal.

Until that happens, it would be prudent for us to increasingly let Iraqis take center stage in all matters, to come up with a nuanced policy in which we assist them from the margins but let them resolve their differences as they see fit. This suggestion is not meant to be defeatist, but rather to highlight our pursuit of incompatible policies to absurd ends without recognizing the incongruities.

We need not talk about our morale. As committed soldiers, we will see this mission through.

Buddhika Jayamaha is an Army specialist. Wesley D. Smith is a sergeant. Jeremy Roebuck is a sergeant. Omar Mora was a sergeant. Edward Sandmeier is a sergeant. Yance T. Gray was a staff sergeant. Jeremy A. Murphy is a staff sergeant.

The sad part is that one of the authors of this piece was shot in the head by a sniper before this was published, though he is now expected to make a full recovery. Two more, as noted in the bolds above, however, died on Monday.
Agerias
13-09-2007, 17:10
Although I agree with what they say, just because they're soldiers does not make them right.

Gen. Patraeus knows far more about processing battlefield data and making conclusions, than grunts who aren't even officers.
Politeia utopia
13-09-2007, 17:15
Although I agree with what they say, just because they're soldiers does not make them right.

Gen. Patraeus knows far more about processing battlefield data and making conclusions, than grunts who aren't even officers.

That is correct..

He also, however, has more incentive to misrepresent this data and draw political conclusions.
Nouvelle Wallonochie
13-09-2007, 17:15
grunts who aren't even officers.

What is that supposed to mean? All it takes to become an officer is a bachelors degree, and if you've been to college you know that there a whole lot of morons out there with them.
Jolter
13-09-2007, 17:20
You mean Bush fired his previous generals in the positions to replace them with someone described by his superiors as "“an ass-kissing little chicken****”" ?

I can't say I'm surprised, he'll fit right in with the Bush cronies.

But that said, despite my lack of surprise, it's still unacceptable, and I think Petraeus has pretty much zero credability in his current position.
The_pantless_hero
13-09-2007, 18:00
Although I agree with what they say, just because they're soldiers does not make them right.

Gen. Patraeus knows far more about processing battlefield data and making conclusions, than grunts who aren't even officers.
And as a high ranking general he is a politician, not a soldier. And that should count for more than anything.
Agerias
13-09-2007, 18:03
What is that supposed to mean? All it takes to become an officer is a bachelors degree, and if you've been to college you know that there a whole lot of morons out there with them.
Officers receive training that privates and sergeants and the such don't get, including reading battlefield information.

He also, however, has more incentive to misrepresent this data and draw political conclusions.
Quite true, and probably most likely.

It still doesn't make the soldiers right though.
The_pantless_hero
13-09-2007, 18:04
Quite true, and probably most likely.

It still doesn't make the soldiers right though.
But you are asserting he is inherently right, regardless of all the counter evidence and logic, simply because he is a general and they arn't.
Agerias
13-09-2007, 18:06
But you are asserting he is inherently right, regardless of all the counter evidence and logic, simply because he is a general and they arn't.

What are you talking about? I said I agree with the soldiers, and think that they're right. I'm just saying that just because they're on the battlefield doesn't mean that they're right.

Is that troll blind making your vision red so you can't read other people's post besides what you can pick at to make you feel smarter? Why don't you bugger off, or start reading people's posts before making assumptions. OK? Thanks.
The Sadisco Room
13-09-2007, 18:07
I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss Patraeus. If not for him, the dementors would suck out your soul.
Nouvelle Wallonochie
13-09-2007, 18:09
Officers receive training that privates and sergeants and the such don't get, including reading battlefield information.

Less than you'd think.
The_pantless_hero
13-09-2007, 18:09
What are you talking about? I said I agree with the soldiers, and think that they're right. I'm just saying that just because they're on the battlefield doesn't mean that they're right.

Is that troll blind making your vision red so you can't read other people's post besides what you can pick at to make you feel smarter? Why don't you bugger off, or start reading people's posts before making assumptions. OK? Thanks.
Then you said
Gen. Patraeus knows far more about processing battlefield data and making conclusions, than grunts who aren't even officers.

Patraeus knows far more about kissing politician ass than processing battlefield data I bet.
Unabashed Greed
13-09-2007, 18:13
This sentence really says it all...

Political reconciliation in Iraq will occur, but not at our insistence or in ways that meet our benchmarks. It will happen on Iraqi terms when the reality on the battlefield is congruent with that in the political sphere.

I think this was mostly directed at the "we broke it, we should fix it," crowd. The truth is that the Iraqis don't want us to fix anything, and are resentful of us for many things, including that attitude. They want to fix it on their own, I say let them.
Agerias
13-09-2007, 18:13
I bet he does. In fact, I'm pretty sure he manipulated the information. Doesn't mean he doesn't know more about the information, though.

Besides, you're assigning motives. I forget the correct term for the fallacy, but I'll give an example.

I ask my parents if I'm fat. They say "No, you're not fat, you're just fine." Then I say, "Well, you would say that." I assigned their motives, even though I had no evidence that my parents are nice and might lie to me if I were fat. Emphasis on might.
The_pantless_hero
13-09-2007, 18:17
I bet he does. In fact, I'm pretty sure he manipulated the information. Doesn't mean he doesn't know more about the information, though.
Knowing the information is irrelevant if it is disregarded to come to political conclusion opposite the evidence.

Besides, you're assigning motives. I forget the correct term for the fallacy, but I'll give an example.

I ask my parents if I'm fat. They say "No, you're not fat, you're just fine." Then I say, "Well, you would say that." I assigned their motives, even though I had no evidence that my parents are nice and might lie to me if I were fat. Emphasis on might.
It isn't a fallacy to assume some one with a position that must be achieved through politic and who is in a position where the previous holders have been removed because the administration wanted some one that would release reports inline with what they wanted to say is manipulating information for political ends.
Agerias
13-09-2007, 18:21
It isn't a fallacy to assume some one with a position that must be achieved through politic and who is in a position where the previous holders have been removed because the administration wanted some one that would release reports inline with what they wanted to say is manipulating information for political ends.
Hmm, good point.

Listen, we're not arguing about anything any more. This is just going to turn into agreeing, and we keep exchanging points.
The PeoplesFreedom
13-09-2007, 18:25
I read a book on him. He is a good soldier and knows what he is doing. But, look what happend to the other generals who spoke out. He is doing his best under these circumstances.
GreaterPacificNations
13-09-2007, 19:06
Just reminding people out there that Patraeus is, in fact, a lying sycophant. I just like his name. You need more latin generals.
Daistallia 2104
13-09-2007, 19:20
I read a book on him.

Well bully for you. :rolleyes:

He is a good soldier

He's a pentagon general. That ain't the same thing.

and knows what he is doing.

Yes. But what he's doing isn't the right thing.

But, look what happend to the other generals who spoke out.

Now there's a thought... The generals who spoke out against the incompetent planning for this war got canned by an administration lead by a war-time deserter.

He is doing his best under these circumstances.

Depends on what you mean by "his best".
Heikoku
13-09-2007, 19:49
Gen. Patraeus knows far more about processing battlefield data and making conclusions, than grunts who aren't even officers.

Let's for one moment assume he does.

Done.

Even if he does, he has no interest in making conclusions that contradict Bush.
Heikoku
13-09-2007, 19:51
I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss Patraeus. If not for him, the dementors would suck out your soul.

I think you mean Patronus here. :p
GreaterPacificNations
13-09-2007, 20:03
I think you mean Patronus here. :p
I think it is the cheesy an unimaginative latinisations of Harry Potter that pisses me off most about those books. It is insufferable.
PsychoticDan
13-09-2007, 20:11
Now there's a thought... The generals who spoke out against the incompetent planning for this war got canned by an administration lead by a war-time deserter.



'nuff said.
Nodinia
13-09-2007, 20:32
The sad part is that one of the authors of this piece was shot in the head by a sniper before this was published, though he is now expected to make a full recovery. Two more, as noted in the bolds above, however, died on Monday.

Indeed. It seems that "success" may not be all its cracked up to be.



Since the start of the surge, the deaths of US soldiers have fallen from a peak of 120 in May to 56 in August. But there are significant discrepancies between the figures for civilian deaths presented by the US military and independent estimates. According to American authorities, 165 civilians were murdered in Baghdad in August, a slight increase on the previous two months, but a sizeable decrease since the beginning of the surge. However, figures released by Iraq's Interior Ministry suggest that at least 428 people were murdered in Baghdad last month, and 612 in July. The Associated Press's tally of civilian deaths throughout Iraq in August was 1,809, the highest this year.

Under the US military's rules, a corpse shot in the back of the head is a " sectarian" killing, while one shot through the front is deemed to be a criminal one. Even under this arbitrary criterion it would be difficult on many occasions to distinguish which particular group a death may fall under. Attendants at the Baghdad morgue point out that victims often bear multiple gunshot wounds.(my bold)

Lies, damn lies, and US methods of re-jigging the numbers....Hmmmmm.
Splintered Yootopia
13-09-2007, 21:21
Just reminding people out there that Patraeus is, in fact, a lying sycophant (as his boss, Adm Fallon agrees (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/12/webb-fallon)), and this op ed piece from the NYT, written by seven soldiers reflects their direct knowledge and experiences in this war of agression.
He used to lead up public relations to the Iraqi public. Of course he's a lying sycophant, it's what he was trained for.

Oh and also, Patraeus and Fallon are hardly best of chums, so I'm not entirely sure that Fallon's word in this case is particularly unbiased and objective.
The sad part is that one of the authors of this piece was shot in the head by a sniper before this was published, though he is now expected to make a full recovery.
Was the sniper firing a BB gun or something?
Two more, as noted in the bolds above, however, died on Monday.
Bit of a shame, really.
You mean Bush fired his previous generals in the positions to replace them with someone described by his superiors as "“an ass-kissing little chicken****”" ?

I can't say I'm surprised, he'll fit right in with the Bush cronies.

But that said, despite my lack of surprise, it's still unacceptable, and I think Petraeus has pretty much zero credability in his current position.
The reason that the top brass has put Patraeus in this position is, in my opinion, because they don't like him. He wants all officers to have degrees, and he wants a general change of pace in Iraq, which means less troops, and better troops.

He's a bit Jim Channon, and they want to put him at the top in Iraq because they know it'll be a complete career-killer for him.