NationStates Jolt Archive

Ever give away the power you have over yourself to something else, to allow it power over you? We do this willfully in some instances, such as when we give authority figures the power to boss us around, and unwillingly too, like when we are moved to strong emotion by an impassioned speech. But when we do it with inanimate or insubstantial objects, like Tarot cards, deity or demons that have abilities 'far beyond those of mortal men,' then we have crossed a line into superstition.

The Christian ceremony of baptism has a certain symbolic appeal: on a mundane level, as a person being immersed in the 'waters' of the universe, as we in our lives are immersed in the the world we live in - or, on a more esoteric level, being immersed in the 'waters' of God's creation that supports the world we are a part of, ensuring access to 'heaven' or the kingdom of God on Earth, which is 'within you, only you do not see' - and waters washing away the 'sin' of ignorance of God's creation. However, if the dipping in the pool is taken literally as salvation itself, it has every aspect of allowing inanimate water and insubstantial forces power over us.

What do you think?

I would think, given the definition of superstition, that any religious ritual would be automatically superstitious.

Baptisim isn't a gurantee ticket to heaven, you can't even keep your sterotypes straight. Baptisim is a remission of sins a cleansing, and rebirth. It also seals that our accountablity and it gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptisim isn't a gurantee ticket to heaven, you can't even keep your sterotypes straight. Baptisim is a remission of sins a cleansing, and rebirth. It also seals that our accountablity and it gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Wonder why they baptise babies then as they can hardly make such a commitment.

no its not.

its mandated by the bible; its tradition; its symbolic; its a welcoming a new member into the christian family; it gives the baptisee a new start in life (religiously speaking) and perhaps some other things.

no its not.

its mandated by the bible; its tradition; its symbolic; its a welcoming a new member into the christian family; it gives the baptisee a new start in life (religiously speaking) and perhaps some other things.

So the child's baptism is for the benefit of the parents and other adults, and not the child?

Baptism is an individual identifying themself with the death and ressurection of christ.

Infant Baptism is absolutely bollocks and not actually supported by an scripture. It's just a "human tradition"

Baptisim is a remission of sins a cleansing, and rebirth. It also seals that our accountablity and it gives us the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No it doesn't.
It makes you wet.
:rolleyes:

Baptism, from what is shown in the bible, should be done right after a person is saved. There was never any waiting. This is how i believe it all works out:

Salvation cleanses our soul of sins, so that when when we are baptized, we can receive the Holy Spirit. That's the problem with church. People wait until its convenient for them to make the sacrifice. I know, I have been that way. But when you are saved, you should be baptized immediately after, to receive the Spirit. With out the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, how are we to live 100% for Him? Its impossible.

Baptism, from what is shown in the bible, should be done right after a person is saved. There was never any waiting. This is how i believe it all works out:

Salvation cleanses our soul of sins, so that when when we are baptized, we can receive the Holy Spirit. That's the problem with church. People wait until its convenient for them to make the sacrifice. I know, I have been that way. But when you are saved, you should be baptized immediately after, to receive the Spirit. With out the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, how are we to live 100% for Him? Its impossible.

What does it mean to "receive the Holy Spirit"? If it is something invading you, taking hold of you, wouldn't that be superstitious?

What does it mean to "receive the Holy Spirit"? If it is something invading you, taking hold of you, wouldn't that be superstitious?
Depends on who gives the diagnosis, i suspect.

su·per·sti·tion

–noun

1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2. a system or collection of such beliefs.
3. a custom or act based on such a belief.
4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion.
5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.

I know that certain denominations view baptism in water as absolutely necessary for salvation, which I vehemently disagree with. However, I think that it's just a symbol used to signify that the person has been "cleansed of their sins".

su·per·sti·tion

–noun

1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2. a system or collection of such beliefs.
3. a custom or act based on such a belief.
4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion.
5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.
*cinch*

I think that it's just a symbol used to signify that the person has been "cleansed of their sins".

...and that's all it'll ever be, a symbol.

Even drowning won't "cleanse" someone of their "sins".

What does it mean to "receive the Holy Spirit"? If it is something invading you, taking hold of you, wouldn't that be superstitious?

Its not something controlling you, rather its God speaking words of wisdom and righteousness to you. Not only that, but having the Holy Spirit enables you to go about and heal people. I have seen that first hand. This past summer, a friend and I were going around praying for people,and we came across a fellow with a cast, and he had about a month left before he could get it off. So, we prayed with him then and there, and he said he felt some sort of warmth in his arm. So we were happy about that. A few days later, I ran into him in a store, and he had the cast off. He'd gone to the doctor to get a check up on it, and the doc told him he didn't need it, because it had healed , 4 weeks before it was supposed to. I count that as more than a coincidence.

Even drowning won't "cleanse" someone of their "sins".

No, but dying daily to self will keep one submissive, and away from sin. :)

No, but dying daily to self will keep one submissive, and away from sin. :)

dying daily? *raise eyebrow* Of course you do realize that according to Christianity, you commit sin simply by living, right?

su·per·sti·tion

–noun

1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2. a system or collection of such beliefs.
3. a custom or act based on such a belief.
4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion.
5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.

One problem with that... You're assuming that a faith in God, and His salvation through Christ is not based on reason or knowledge. Since my belief is based in reason, it does not fit your defintion of superstition, nor do actions based off of said belief.

Now, as to the discussion of baptism itself... I am a ministry student. I am in theology classes and such, to learn about the doctrines that are at the center of the actions of Christians, and the church. Baptism is actually a statement of faith. When someone accepts Christ, they are making an internal decision, and have an internal faith. Baptism is an outward expression of that inward faith. Biblically, baptism is not needed for the presence of the Holy Spirit. He is perfectly capable of coming into my life without my having been baptised. However, it is following the Biblical model for a Christian's life for a new believer to be baptised. That leads us into the question that has been raised about infant baptism. There is no basis for infant baptism, not in the sense of traditional baptism. A baby has no internal faith, and is not making an outward expression of such. However, in the context that some churches use it in, of it being a committment of the parents and the body of the church to do their best to teach the child about Christ and His plan of salvation, it would seem to be acceptable. Now, I need some sleep, as I have an 8:50am New Testament class, but I can explain later, if anyone would like, what the reason is behind my faith. God Bless.

Sven <><

dying daily? *raise eyebrow* Of course you do realize that according to Christianity, you commit sin simply by living, right?

Not according to Christianity. That is according to Catholicism, which is based off of the traditions of humans just as much as the instructions of God. There is no Biblical support for the notion that living is sin.

Sven <><

Since my belief is based in reason, it does not fit your defintion of superstition, nor do actions based off of said belief.
It's not if it's about faith, and especially if your argument would ultimately rest, cornered, in faith.
You're welcome to challenge any number of people here to that principle, but you might not like the challenges you endure.

dying daily? *raise eyebrow* Of course you do realize that according to Christianity, you commit sin simply by living, right?

Not from what I've ever heard. That might be catholic, which I wouldn't trust anyways. Daily dying, means not giving into our flesh. No lusting, or gossiping, or anything bad. Rather, we lay our own will aside, and seek to fulfill God's will.

There is no Biblical support for the notion that living is sin.

Sven <><
Could you indulge us, then, how *SO MANY* people adhere to the "Original Sin" bullshit as immediate repentance for not even having committed anything yet?

No, but dying daily to self will keep one submissive, and away from sin. :)

That's the same thing Gabri-el said in "The Prophecy 3."

I'd die every night, if I had the money.

Could you indulge us, then, how *SO MANY* people adhere to the "Original Sin" bullshit as immediate repentance for not even having committed anything yet?

Original sin isn't biblical, if I remember correctly. Its a mis interpretation of scripture. We are born perfect creatures. However, there is in us, a desire to disobey. It is inevitably that we will sin, because none can be perfect minus Christ. But we are not born with sin.

Original sin isn't biblical, if I remember correctly. Its a mis interpretation of scripture. We are born perfect creatures. However, there is in us, a desire to disobey. It is inevitably that we will sin, because none can be perfect minus Christ. But we are not born with sin.

The only reason Eve started giving birth in the first place was the curse god laid upon her ... and i've run across many interpretations of that as Original sin for when Adam & Steve ...er, Eve ... went against the will of god (which is, literally, sin).

Its not something controlling you, rather its God speaking words of wisdom and righteousness to you. Not only that, but having the Holy Spirit enables you to go about and heal people. I have seen that first hand. This past summer, a friend and I were going around praying for people,and we came across a fellow with a cast, and he had about a month left before he could get it off. So, we prayed with him then and there, and he said he felt some sort of warmth in his arm. So we were happy about that. A few days later, I ran into him in a store, and he had the cast off. He'd gone to the doctor to get a check up on it, and the doc told him he didn't need it, because it had healed , 4 weeks before it was supposed to. I count that as more than a coincidence.

Yeah that's because people heal at different rates and doctors / hospitals always give the maximum time. If you look at the averages 90% of people will be able to take the cast off before the date given.

I know a few people who believe in this kind of healing - but none of them has ever seen a limb grow back.

BTW question for Catholics re the abortion debate.

As i understand it the argument against abortion is that the foetus is an "innocent child" but Catholics also believe in original sin.

So when does the original sin appear? If it is present before birth then surely it cannot be wrong to abort because the baby is innocent because it isn't innocent.

Ever give away the power you have over yourself to something else, to allow it power over you? We do this willfully in some instances, such as when we give authority figures the power to boss us around, and unwillingly too, like when we are moved to strong emotion by an impassioned speech. But when we do it with inanimate or insubstantial objects, like Tarot cards, deity or demons that have abilities 'far beyond those of mortal men,' then we have crossed a line into superstition.

The Christian ceremony of baptism has a certain symbolic appeal: on a mundane level, as a person being immersed in the 'waters' of the universe, as we in our lives are immersed in the the world we live in - or, on a more esoteric level, being immersed in the 'waters' of God's creation that supports the world we are a part of, ensuring access to 'heaven' or the kingdom of God on Earth, which is 'within you, only you do not see' - and waters washing away the 'sin' of ignorance of God's creation. However, if the dipping in the pool is taken literally as salvation itself, it has every aspect of allowing inanimate water and insubstantial forces power over us.

What do you think?

Yes, it is, in the same way as many religious traditions (meat-eating laws for example).

No, but dying daily to self will keep one submissive, and away from sin. :)

I think being submissive is overrated. Sure, it's nice sometimes being tied to the bed and all, but I like being dominant now and then, too.

Ever give away the power you have over yourself to something else, to allow it power over you? We do this willfully in some instances, such as when we give authority figures the power to boss us around, and unwillingly too, like when we are moved to strong emotion by an impassioned speech. But when we do it with inanimate or insubstantial objects, like Tarot cards, deity or demons that have abilities 'far beyond those of mortal men,' then we have crossed a line into superstition.

The Christian ceremony of baptism has a certain symbolic appeal: on a mundane level, as a person being immersed in the 'waters' of the universe, as we in our lives are immersed in the the world we live in - or, on a more esoteric level, being immersed in the 'waters' of God's creation that supports the world we are a part of, ensuring access to 'heaven' or the kingdom of God on Earth, which is 'within you, only you do not see' - and waters washing away the 'sin' of ignorance of God's creation. However, if the dipping in the pool is taken literally as salvation itself, it has every aspect of allowing inanimate water and insubstantial forces power over us.

What do you think?

Yes it is. As are all religious rituals.

Depends a great deal upon the denomination you are a part of and the faith professed by such and accepted by you.

I was told that a baptism is nothing more than an outward sign of an inward devotion, meaning it was a public ceremony to mark my acceptance of Christ and my commitment to follow His teachings. It, as my pastor said, didn't confer anything special, and the water was out of the water fountain in the hallway, so not particularly holy (And given the water in Carson City, not too particularly good, either).

So, no, it was no more superstitious than my graduation ceremony from university where I had to wear the really weird robes, the hood, cords, and hat (Which didn't even mean I had actually graduated either).

But, like the commencement ceremony, my baptism has special meaning to me.

Your actual mileage with various Christians may vary of course. ;)

Ever give away the power you have over yourself to something else, to allow it power over you? We do this willfully in some instances, such as when we give authority figures the power to boss us around, and unwillingly too, like when we are moved to strong emotion by an impassioned speech. But when we do it with inanimate or insubstantial objects, like Tarot cards, deity or demons that have abilities 'far beyond those of mortal men,' then we have crossed a line into superstition.

The Christian ceremony of baptism has a certain symbolic appeal: on a mundane level, as a person being immersed in the 'waters' of the universe, as we in our lives are immersed in the the world we live in - or, on a more esoteric level, being immersed in the 'waters' of God's creation that supports the world we are a part of, ensuring access to 'heaven' or the kingdom of God on Earth, which is 'within you, only you do not see' - and waters washing away the 'sin' of ignorance of God's creation. However, if the dipping in the pool is taken literally as salvation itself, it has every aspect of allowing inanimate water and insubstantial forces power over us.

What do you think?
All the "spiritual" stuff you mention is just as much superstition as believing in the super-powers of magic bathwater.

Doesn't make it bad, necessarily, it just means that you've posed a very easy question.

As a Baptist I believe that baptism is a symbol of your commitment, kinda like a wedding, it doesn't really do anything, but it's an outward sign of your decision.

We do "believer's baptism" meaning we don't baptize babies, only people who have made a conscious decision to be a Christian, and even then it's just a ceremony, it's not required, but it's encouraged.

Its not something controlling you, rather its God speaking words of wisdom and righteousness to you. Not only that, but having the Holy Spirit enables you to go about and heal people. I have seen that first hand. This past summer, a friend and I were going around praying for people,and we came across a fellow with a cast, and he had about a month left before he could get it off. So, we prayed with him then and there, and he said he felt some sort of warmth in his arm. So we were happy about that. A few days later, I ran into him in a store, and he had the cast off. He'd gone to the doctor to get a check up on it, and the doc told him he didn't need it, because it had healed , 4 weeks before it was supposed to. I count that as more than a coincidence.

Superpowers! but are those superpowers natural abilities or do they 'come from God'? And if the latter, wouldn't that be superstition (as I described it in the OP)?

All the "spiritual" stuff you mention is just as much superstition as believing in the super-powers of magic bathwater.

Doesn't make it bad, necessarily, it just means that you've posed a very easy question.

Which "spiritual stuff" do you refer to?
:)

Its not something controlling you, rather its God speaking words of wisdom and righteousness to you. Not only that, but having the Holy Spirit enables you to go about and heal people. I have seen that first hand. This past summer, a friend and I were going around praying for people,and we came across a fellow with a cast, and he had about a month left before he could get it off. So, we prayed with him then and there, and he said he felt some sort of warmth in his arm. So we were happy about that. A few days later, I ran into him in a store, and he had the cast off. He'd gone to the doctor to get a check up on it, and the doc told him he didn't need it, because it had healed , 4 weeks before it was supposed to. I count that as more than a coincidence.
Dude, prayer has been shown in a number of studies to have no effect on the healing process. In fact, at least one study showed a negative effect.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece

Oh yeah, how about you hold that sucker underwater for 2 straight minutes, see the 'positive spiritual impact' of that!

Dude, prayer has been shown in a number of studies to have no effect on the healing process. In fact, at least one study showed a negative effect.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece

You just made my "i <3 you" list. :D

It's short and sweet.
Not like all the other lists i subscribe to.