NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, traditionally survivalists have been viewed as crazy hermits who hope for the downfall of civilization. While this could not be further from the truth.

With recent political/civil turmoil around the world, global warming and natural disasters, the energy crunch, are they really crazy?

Survivalists often strive to be self sufficient, or at least maintain the capacity to be so if disorder takes over.

This often involves having a source of energy, as a result those who installed biodiesel, solar, wind, methane digesters, etc - are benefiting... even profiting (for those areas that allow backfeeding the grid) from the recent energy crisis...

Do they really seem crazy now?

Even something as simple as stockpiling canned goods could mean the difference between life or death... Many people do this, others take it to the extreme...

While I don't have a "bugout" vehicle and a strategy to barter if there is a return to barbarism, I do possess enough food, ammunition, supplies, etc to survive an event larger than Katrina.

Why don't YOU do the same?

I will have my own roving band of maniacs. :)

I don't do the same because the odds of such an event occuring are below that to cause me any concern.

That and the fact that I can't even afford shoes at the moment let alone more food than necessary

One can of food (all 50 cents of it) will accumulate over time, and the shelf life is literally a human lifetime (despite what others say)

And it really is a valid cancern IMHO, look at all the people hit by Katrina - Didn't think they would end up in that situation eh? Despite living in a giant bathtub.

I will have my own roving band of maniacs. :)



I see why you earned the title of "Honorary Spam Forum Owner"

If you were serious, you will find most victims die early during disasters... The rest shoot back - You would be reduced to eating stray pets, assuming you win the fight against the other roving maniacs...

Forgive me, but all the survivalists I've met reminded me a bit too strongly of little boys stocking up their tree house with supplies. They get a pile of water guns and water balloons, haul up a few 2-liter bottles of soda and some PB&J sandwiches, and spend a glorious afternoon discussing the strength of their fort with one another. To be sure, I spent many a summer in similar pursuits. When I was 9.

One can of food (all 50 cents of it) will accumulate over time, and the shelf life is literally a human lifetime (despite what others say)

And it really is a valid cancern IMHO, look at all the people hit by Katrina - Didn't think they would end up in that situation eh? Despite living in a giant bathtub.

Natural Disasters in Scotland aren't a valid concern to me. And again the food I buy now is just enough and that extra 50p goes towards my parking for uni (and petrol to get there)

Forgive me, but all the survivalists I've met reminded me a bit too strongly of little boys stocking up their tree house with supplies. They get a pile of water guns and water balloons, haul up a few 2-liter bottles of soda and some PB&J sandwiches, and spend a glorious afternoon discussing the strength of their fort with one another. To be sure, I spent many a summer in similar pursuits. When I was 9.

Forgiven - But I am surprised you would be as short sighted to make a generalized prototype of all survivalists based on one small sample of the population.

If I really was of that bunch (and they do exist, it is their right), I would not bring this up - Lessons learned from Katrina proves a little bit of prepping will save your life.

Forgive me, but all the survivalists I've met reminded me a bit too strongly of little boys stocking up their tree house with supplies. They get a pile of water guns and water balloons, haul up a few 2-liter bottles of soda and some PB&J sandwiches, and spend a glorious afternoon discussing the strength of their fort with one another. To be sure, I spent many a summer in similar pursuits. When I was 9.

Agreed

I see why you earned the title of "Honorary Spam Forum Owner"

If you were serious, you will find most victims die early during disasters... The rest shoot back - You would be reduced to eating stray pets, assuming you win the fight against the other roving maniacs...

Well, when my 800 maniacs show up, I'm sure you will feel secure in the knowledge that you have enough food to feed us for a month, enough guns and ammo to kill us all and only three people to shoot at us. Of course, the 800 of us will still have the guns and ammo from the last such survivalist. :)

Well, to answer the thread topic: it depends.

If you live in a disaster prone area, you'd be a fool not to have supplies on hand. I live in an area that seems to have more than it's fair share of tornadoes. I keep extra food and water on hand during tornado season just in case. Personally, I've never really worried about stocking food/ammo/supplies during the winter - we don't get blizzards down here.

If you live in an area that doesn't get many natural (or, for that matter, man made) disasters, it'd be a waste of time...

To prepare against the end of civilization - nope. I'll just go with the flow at that point...

Well, when my 800 maniacs show up, I'm sure you will feel secure in the knowledge that you have enough food to feed us for a month, enough guns and ammo to kill us all and only three people to shoot at us. Of course, the 800 of us will still have the guns and ammo from the last such survivalist. :)


That is amusing, you assume that in total chaos you can cultivate a cult of personality? WRONG...

You will become a victim, they will take your possessions and belongings then kill you.

And I guarantee even 800 maniacs will think twice, you would be surprised what a well trained individual can do with a firearm.

Well, to answer the thread topic: it depends.

If you live in a disaster prone area, you'd be a fool not to have supplies on hand. I live in an area that seems to have more than it's fair share of tornadoes. I keep extra food and water on hand during tornado season just in case. Personally, I've never really worried about stocking food/ammo/supplies during the winter - we don't get blizzards down here.

If you live in an area that doesn't get many natural (or, for that matter, man made) disasters, it'd be a waste of time...

To prepare against the end of civilization - nope. I'll just go with the flow at that point...

Fair enough, thanks for your input!

Where do I leave an impression of my face for this band of maniacs?

Send me your resume. I'm still taking applications. :)

Well, when my 800 maniacs show up, I'm sure you will feel secure in the knowledge that you have enough food to feed us for a month, enough guns and ammo to kill us all and only three people to shoot at us. Of course, the 800 of us will still have the guns and ammo from the last such survivalist. :)

Where do I leave an impression of my face for this band of maniacs?

Being prepared for a natural disaster is a prudent thing. Being ready for the collapse of civilization is not. I live in the North East this time of year I stock up on some extra canned goods and lay in some wood for my fire place. If I get hit with a blizzard or ice storm I will not need outside help.
Survival-ism comes in many flavors the prudent like myself who can get a long for a week or so with out going to the store. However their are the ones with two years of food and enough guns to start WWIII. they are the ones that need to be watched.

With recent political/civil turmoil around the world, global warming and natural disasters, the energy crunch, are they really crazy?

where where you in the 80's?

Do they really seem crazy now?

yeah because it costs about £10,000 for good solar panels and such when really you don't need a source of power (unless your some sort of girly survivalist who needs to power straighteners:p)

Even something as simple as stockpiling canned goods could mean the difference between life or death... Many people do this, others take it to the extreme...

you can't survive a nuclear winter on canned goods (which is the only thing that could keep you from food sources for that long really)

While I don't have a "bugout" vehicle and a strategy to barter if there is a return to barbarism, I do possess enough food, ammunition, supplies, etc to survive an event larger than Katrina.

ammunition? :eek:

Why don't YOU do the same?

because I can fend for myself in most cases or in extremes I will be vaporized in some daring military adventure

I see why you earned the title of "Honorary Spam Forum Owner"

If you were serious, you will find most victims die early during disasters... The rest shoot back - You would be reduced to eating stray pets, assuming you win the fight against the other roving maniacs...

Who is the bigger target? The guy holed up with all the food and limited amunition or the guy with nothing

blahblahblah

Such a synical response, a shame really. Almost an insult.

Not the 80s, the type got a lot of attention during that decade but they didn't disappear. You are assuming I'm some sort of anarcho-racist bigot? You must be assuming I am white aren't you?

Solar panels don't cost that much... BP sells high capacity units for as little as 500, get a deep cycle battery and you have a source of constant light. Not that extreme... Using it now will pay itself off in only a few years.

yes ammo, I'm surprised you are shocked at this statement - you say you can defend for youself? Without a firearm I am interested in how you will do this... Please tell...

Send me your resume. I'm still taking applications. :)

Yeah me too, I want in, I wanna be down with tha clowns!

Being prepared for a natural disaster is a prudent thing. Being ready for the collapse of civilization is not. I live in the North East this time of year I stock up on some extra canned goods and lay in some wood for my fire place. If I get hit with a blizzard or ice storm I will not need outside help.
Survival-ism comes in many flavors the prudent like myself who can get a long for a week or so with out going to the store. However their are the ones with two years of food and enough guns to start WWIII. they are the ones that need to be watched.


EXACTLY, thank you for bringing a reasonable voice in here.

I don't own where I live. I'm at college, and if the apocalypse comes, and our college survives intact, I think we'll do fine. We're a tech school with a strong ROTC program. We have plenty of ammo, there are probably several dozen sources of electricity on campus that we could use, and while I don't know what we have in the way of canned food, we have plenty of vehicles on campus to use for scouting, and the aquaculture department could probably figure something out.

That is amusing, you assume that in total chaos you can cultivate a cult of personality? WRONG...

You will become a victim, they will take your possessions and belongings then kill you.

And I guarantee even 800 maniacs will think twice, you would be surprised what a well trained individual can do with a firearm.

I suppose that there is a good chance that I will not be the leader or a higher ranking lieutenant of such a roving band of maniacs. I could very well end up as a victim. But the nice thing about that is that I won't have to worry about survival. :)

The thing that most survivalists don't think through is the isolation. They think they can hole up with their family and maybe a few close friends until the chaos subsides. Human history has shown otherwise. There are good reasons why most early human civilizations were nomadic. There were reasons why the leaders of such nomadic tribes were often strong, smart, charismatic and a bit nuts. Personally, I think I'm stong, smart, charismatic and nutty enough to draw a crowd. :)

Who is the bigger target? The guy holed up with all the food and limited amunition or the guy with nothing


Define limited ammunition, you are making an assumption the ammo stock is "limited"

Deterrence is the biggest thing, Katrina is the perfect example... Those firearm owners who were protecting their lives and property didn't even need to shoot. And they survived quite well.

Okay, traditionally survivalists have been viewed as crazy hermits who hope for the downfall of civilization. While this could not be further from the truth.

With recent political/civil turmoil around the world, global warming and natural disasters, the energy crunch, are they really crazy?

Survivalists often strive to be self sufficient, or at least maintain the capacity to be so if disorder takes over.

This often involves having a source of energy, as a result those who installed biodiesel, solar, wind, methane digesters, etc - are benefiting... even profiting (for those areas that allow backfeeding the grid) from the recent energy crisis...

Do they really seem crazy now?

Even something as simple as stockpiling canned goods could mean the difference between life or death... Many people do this, others take it to the extreme...

While I don't have a "bugout" vehicle and a strategy to barter if there is a return to barbarism, I do possess enough food, ammunition, supplies, etc to survive an event larger than Katrina.

Why don't YOU do the same?

It is always good to strive for even a modicum of self sufficientcy but, 'a return to bararism', or the 'dwonfall of civilisation' to belive in such things is clearly not thinking right.

Do you really belive it may happen?

I suppose that there is a good chance that I will not be the leader or a higher ranking lieutenant of such a roving band of maniacs. I could very well end up as a victim. But the nice thing about that is that I won't have to worry about survival. :)

The thing that most survivalists don't think through is the isolation. They think they can hole up with their family and maybe a few close friends until the chaos subsides. Human history has shown otherwise. There are good reasons why most early human civilizations were nomadic. There were reasons why the leaders of such nomadic tribes were often strong, smart, charismatic and a bit nuts. Personally, I think I'm stong, smart, charismatic and nutty enough to draw a crowd. :)

Again, you make the assumption I am talking about the END of civilization - I am not. The type of event to cause that would almost ensure all but less than a percent of the population survives. How often do I need to point to Katrina?

You are strong smart charismatic and a bit nuts... and if you knew anything about self defense... You are the first one who would be shot, either by someone you attack or someone who is a bit nuttier than yourself...

Where is your source of unlimited ammunition then?

Cheat code. :)

Define limited ammunition, you are making an assumption the ammo stock is "limited"

Deterrence is the biggest thing, Katrina is the perfect example... Those firearm owners who were protecting their lives and property didn't even need to shoot. And they survived quite well.

Where is your source of unlimited ammunition then?

It is always good to strive for even a modicum of self sufficientcy but, 'a return to bararism', or the 'dwonfall of civilisation' to belive in such things is clearly not thinking right.

Do you really belive it may happen?

Barbarism takes many forms, again I point to Katrina...

Do I think it can happen? Absolutely... Is it likely in my lifetime? Hell no, but I'm not prepared for the end of the world...

Where is your source of unlimited ammunition then?

I didn't say unlimited, I asked you to define limited... If you define limited as anything not unlimited then yes by that standard I am limited.

Those "maniacs" are not suicidal, the first to come are the first shot... Need I point to.... Katrina again?

Not the 80s, the type got a lot of attention during that decade but they didn't disappear. You are assuming I'm some sort of anarcho-racist bigot? You must be assuming I am white aren't you?

You would be assuming that all the repliers are from the US...

Forgiven - But I am surprised you would be as short sighted to make a generalized prototype of all survivalists based on one small sample of the population.

On what else should I base my evaluation, if not on my own experience?


If I really was of that bunch (and they do exist, it is their right), I would not bring this up - Lessons learned from Katrina proves a little bit of prepping will save your life.
I'd say, rather, that Katrina shows us that people who can afford to stock up as you describe are generally not going to be the ones who are hit hardest by such disasters anyhow.

People rich enough to have a special escape vehicle were already out of the way when that disaster hit. The people who were most seriously fucked by Katrina were the people who couldn't have afforded to fill their basement with extra canned goods even if they wanted to.

You would be assuming that all the repliers are from the US...


No I didn't, not sure you got that from...

Again, you make the assumption I am talking about the END of civilization - I am not.

Well, it's a safe assumption. Preparations for situations like Katrina are prudent. Having enough food, supplies and contingency plans for a week cut off from outside aid is prudent. I have quite a thorough emergency supply closet. And yes, I have a shotgun. My wife is a police officer and thus has a firearm of her own.

But anything beyond that and it's time to get moving. *nod*

No I didn't, not sure you got that from...
Well...
yes ammo, I'm surprised you are shocked at this statement - you say you can defend for youself? Without a firearm I am interested in how you will do this... Please tell...
...And if you look at CTP's location you'll notice he's from Northampton.

Being prepared for a natural disaster is a prudent thing. Being ready for the collapse of civilization is not. I live in the North East this time of year I stock up on some extra canned goods and lay in some wood for my fire place. If I get hit with a blizzard or ice storm I will not need outside help.
That's a good point.

I grew up in Minnesota. Any car I drive will have an emergency kit in the trunk. First aid, a few dried rations of somethingorother, water, blankets, a bag of sand, a hand-powered flashlight...stuff like that. This is not in place because I fear some epic disaster, it's because that's what a good Minnesotan kid brings along in case the car gets stuck in the snow.

On what else should I base my evaluation, if not on my own experience?


I'd say, rather, that Katrina shows us that people who can afford to stock up as you describe are generally not going to be the ones who are hit hardest by such disasters anyhow.

People rich enough to have a special escape vehicle were already out of the way when that disaster hit. The people who were most seriously fucked by Katrina were the people who couldn't have afforded to fill their basement with extra canned goods even if they wanted to.

Read a bit, find out the true intentions of the general population. Finding one apple with worms does not make the whole barrel bad. Ya follow?

Afford to stock up? How much of an investment do you think it takes? A hundred dollars if you already own a firearm... Three hundred if you don't... A weeks worth of food and a few boxes of ammo, a first aid kit and your medications.

And not everyone who had a capacity to leave did... In fact majority of those had a method, they were just stubborn to leave their lives behind.

Well, it's a safe assumption. Preparations for situations like Katrina are prudent. Having enough food, supplies and contingency plans for a week cut off from outside aid is prudent. I have quite a thorough emergency supply closet. And yes, I have a shotgun. My wife is a police officer and thus has a firearm of her own.

But anything beyond that and it's time to get moving. *nod*


How many times must I say, I am talking about a disaster... Not the end of the world...

I live in Wisconsin (if it wasn't obvious), a wood or propane burner with a few weeks of food, a solar panel with a deep cycle battery, and... a firearm of two... When we lose power, it tends to be for long periods in the winter...

Why is this such a hard concept for some? You can't guarantee the government will take care of you during disasters.

Well...

...And if you look at CTP's location you'll notice he's from Northampton.

Northampton England? So what? Get any sort of weapon if you are worried about the law, personally I would have a break action shotgun if I were you... You can still at least have those right?

That's a good point.

I grew up in Minnesota. Any car I drive will have an emergency kit in the trunk. First aid, a few dried rations of somethingorother, water, blankets, a bag of sand, a hand-powered flashlight...stuff like that. This is not in place because I fear some epic disaster, it's because that's what a good Minnesotan kid brings along in case the car gets stuck in the snow.

Wait a minute, you have supplies to survive in a disaster (even a personal disaster)? You are a crazy!!!

Sorry, I had to use the logic of some here to illustrate what I've been trying to say all along...

Read a bit, find out the true intentions of the general population. Finding one apple with worms does not make the whole barrel bad. Ya follow?

What makes you think I haven't done that?


Afford to stock up? How much of an investment do you think it takes? A hundred dollars if you already own a firearm... Three hundred if you don't... A weeks worth of food and a few boxes of ammo, a first aid kit and your medications.

I know this may shock some of you, but a whole fuckton of your fellow Americans don't have an extra hundred bucks to spare.


And not everyone who had a capacity to leave did... In fact majority of those had a method, they were just stubborn to leave their lives behind.
I'm going to choose not to pursue this line of discussion, because the blaming-the-victims attitude directed at Katrina victims makes me want to vomit so explosively that I don't think I can have a rational conversation about it.

What makes you think I haven't done that?


I know this may shock some of you, but a whole fuckton of your fellow Americans don't have an extra hundred bucks to spare.


I'm going to choose not to pursue this line of discussion, because the blaming-the-victims attitude directed at Katrina victims makes me want to vomit so explosively that I don't think I can have a rational conversation about it.

You didn't do that, well... because you said you didn't... twice...

Do they have color TVs? Then don't complain they dont fucking have money... I am middle class, married with 3 kids... My wife stays home with the kids instead of working, you think I have extra money to just throw around? No I am ensuring the survival of my family, more important that a color fucking TV... Hindsight is always 20/20, I will feed my children no matter how much snow falls.

Blame the victim? Some people are stubborn and don't want to leave their lives... MYSELF included....

You are an idiot incapable of rational conversation, you simply look for anything bad you can get your hands on, then you run with it.

I can only explain the rational idea behind the topic for so long, you continue to pick the worst aspects and exploit the whole idea as flawed.

How many times must I say, I am talking about a disaster... Not the end of the world...

I live in Wisconsin (if it wasn't obvious), a wood or propane burner with a few weeks of food, a solar panel with a deep cycle battery, and... a firearm of two... When we lose power, it tends to be for long periods in the winter...

Why is this such a hard concept for some? You can't guarantee the government will take care of you during disasters.

In your original thread you mentioned a 'return to barbarism'. A local disaster is hardly a return to barbarism.

People should just be aware of their area and any special risks they may face. Like how in Minnesota it is realistic to be prepared for a storm that might knock out power and water for days at a time, and possibly leave you snowed in for a bit. Such things are rare, but they have happened a couple of times in my life.

Rare? We lose power every year from snow storms. Left stranded? Happens every year... not that rare...

Well, it's a safe assumption. Preparations for situations like Katrina are prudent. Having enough food, supplies and contingency plans for a week cut off from outside aid is prudent.

People should just be aware of their area and any special risks they may face. Like how in Minnesota it is realistic to be prepared for a storm that might knock out power and water for days at a time, and possibly leave you snowed in for a bit. Such things are rare, but they have happened a couple of times in my life.

In your original thread you mentioned a 'return to barbarism'. A local disaster is hardly a return to barbarism.

Katrina was a return to barbarism, hardly the end of the world

People should just be aware of their area and any special risks they may face. Like how in Minnesota it is realistic to be prepared for a storm that might knock out power and water for days at a time, and possibly leave you snowed in for a bit. Such things are rare, but they have happened a couple of times in my life.

Agreed. But there's difference between disaster preparedness and survivalism. Survivalism is preparing for the collapse of society. People who stockpile numerous firearms, gobs of ammo, enough food and dry goods for years, have ten thousand gallon oil or gas tanks installed on their property, bury freight containers underground to act as makeshift bunkers and hoard gold, valuables and bicycles(which I thought was rather clever) to use as barter are survivalists. They are frightfully interesting and resourceful people and I've learned some really useful things from them. But they are completely batshit insane. *nod*

You are an idiot incapable of rational conversation, you simply look for anything bad you can get your hands on, then you run with it.

.

You would prefer people glossed over the bad points in your arguments instead?

Northampton England? So what? Get any sort of weapon if you are worried about the law, personally I would have a break action shotgun if I were you... You can still at least have those right?

Or a rifle. If you can be arsed with the paperwork, etc.

Now, what reason would you like to put for owning it on the paperwork? Incidentally, "Self Defence" isn't valid. So's you know. I doubt they'd look favourably on "In Case Of The End Of Civilisation As We Know It" either.

Or you could spend a few minutes thinking about the hordes of armed looters that don't tend to rampage across the British countryside in the event of a flood, and realise that any number of common household items could be a weapon if you really needed it to be, keep a few spare cans of beans kicking around, and live happily ever after.

You would prefer people glossed over the bad points in your arguments instead?

No, I hardly think there is a bad point. See you are either attempt to make me guilty by association (association with lunatic TEOTWAWKI type... look it up), or you try to paint the whole idea as flawed.

What is soooo irrational about preparing for a disaster... Even the freaking US government recommends it... FEMA being a perfect example of why you should not rely on the government for your survival during duress...

I'm going for the looting option myself.

I prepare for nothing! Nothing I tell you.

Agreed. But there's difference between disaster preparedness and survivalism. Survivalism is preparing for the collapse of society. People who stockpile numerous firearms, gobs of ammo, enough food and dry goods for years, have ten thousand gallon oil or gas tanks installed on their property, bury freight containers underground to act as makeshift bunkers and hoard gold, valuables and bicycles(which I thought was rather clever) to use as barter are survivalists. They are frightfully interesting and resourceful people and I've learned some really useful things from them. But they are completely dogshit insane. *nod*
Bingo.

Maybe that's the problem. It seems that the OP thinks "survivalist" refers to anybody who prepares for the possibility of a disaster of some kind. That's not a survivalist, that's just a responsible person with enough time and money on their hands to take some prudent measures.

A survivalist is far more extreme, by definition.

One can of food (all 50 cents of it) will accumulate over time, and the shelf life is literally a human lifetime (despite what others say)

what you will need for survival in some horrific environment will be different to day to day beans on toast (hence why most food delivered to refugees and such is boxes of ration packs filled with yummy carbs)

I have my doubts of whither you could get enough nutrients from tinned food especially the crap they put in tinned food (though you could try dog food that would keep you happy till you catch salmonella of course)

And it really is a valid cancern IMHO, look at all the people hit by Katrina - Didn't think they would end up in that situation eh? Despite living in a giant bathtub.

they couldn't afford to leave being poor does that

Not the 80s, the type got a lot of attention during that decade but they didn't disappear. You are assuming I'm some sort of anarcho-racist bigot? You must be assuming I am white aren't you?[/QUOTE]

I meant we have known about all the horrors for awhile now there not recent (you should of got this by the highlighting of recent)

Solar panels don't cost that much... BP sells high capacity units for as little as 500, get a deep cycle battery and you have a source of constant light. Not that extreme... Using it now will pay itself off in only a few years.[/QUOTE]

oh I see you just want a light you see I thought you wanted a source of hot water or something silly like that

yes ammo, I'm surprised you are shocked at this statement - you say you can defend for youself? Without a firearm I am interested in how you will do this... Please tell...[/QUOTE]

well:

1) firearms are high maintenance equipment when there being used especially the tacky ones an American civilian will use (not on insult but your army uses M-16's so I guess thats the best you will have)

2) creating some mega fortress wont work just because as a rule they never work

your better off just moving off whenever some heavily armed gang comes along

...And if you look at CTP's location you'll notice he's from Northampton.

I has nose-biting skillz! :p

No, I hardly think there is a bad point. .

Then rather than simply calling other posters idiots try debating it.

Or a rifle. If you can be arsed with the paperwork, etc.

Now, what reason would you like to put for owning it on the paperwork? Incidentally, "Self Defence" isn't valid. So's you know.

Or you could spend a few minutes thinking about the hordes of armed looters that don't tend to rampage across the British countryside in the event of a flood, and realise that any number of common household items could be a weapon if you really needed it to be, keep a few spare cans of beans kicking around, and live happily ever after.

You know the laws better than I, however you can lie to the government... I promise... And it is about as immoral as hiding Jews from Hitler... IE... Not immoral at all...

Common household items yes, but sometimes intermediate weapons can't help you against a larger or armed intruder...

You don't think roving gangs are an issue if a disaster occured? As if somehow people are generally kinder in a country with a similar culture? Okay, I will only go so far as to convice you of something... I crossed that point, and I will only leave the above rhetorical question for you to ponder.

Katrina was a return to barbarism, hardly the end of the world

Hardly. It was three days of governent ineptitude punctuated by mass evacuations and a year(or more) of dealing with emergency housing and other assorted breakdowns of emergency services.

When you can get on a bus and leave, it's not a return to barbarism.

Bingo.

Maybe that's the problem. It seems that the OP thinks "survivalist" refers to anybody who prepares for the possibility of a disaster of some kind. That's not a survivalist, that's just a responsible person with enough time and money on their hands to take some prudent measures.

A survivalist is far more extreme, by definition.


Nope, I disagree - disaster preparedness? Now you are debating the definition of terms, perhaps a sign of panic...

Do they have color TVs? Then don't complain they dont fucking have money... I am middle class, married with 3 kids... My wife stays home with the kids instead of working, you think I have extra money to just throw around? No I am ensuring the survival of my family, more important that a color fucking TV... Hindsight is always 20/20, I will feed my children no matter how much snow falls.

Blame the victim? Some people are stubborn and don't want to leave their lives... MYSELF included....

You are an idiot incapable of rational conversation, you simply look for anything bad you can get your hands on, then you run with it.

I can only explain the rational idea behind the topic for so long, you continue to pick the worst aspects and exploit the whole idea as flawed.
You do realize, of course, that your behavior fits perfectly with my "flawed perception" of survivalists, right?

I'm not going to report your flaming to the mods, because I just don't like doing that unless things are really out of hand, but I do want to extend a friendly warning: saying things like "you are an idiot incapable of rational conversation" is considered a no-no on this forum, and you may face moderator action for doing it. I don't like seeing the expulsion of people who post interesting topics, so I'd rather not see you booted from the forum.

Then rather than simply calling other posters idiots try debating it.

I've been debating, that poster I called an idiot threw the word Fucktards or something of that nature... So I fight fire with fire, don't try to roast me for following suit...

1) firearms are high maintenance equipment when there being used especially the tacky ones an American civilian will use (not on insult but your army uses M-16's so I guess thats the best you will have)

Most civilians have much better taste in rifles than Uncle Sam does. I know a few jackasses who spend ludicrous amounts of money on AR-15s, but most people I know with assault rifles (which is quite a few people, as I do live in Michigan) have more sensible rifles.

You know the laws better than I, however you can lie to the government... I promise... And it is about as immoral as hiding Jews from Hitler... IE... Not immoral at all...

yeah lets all get guns like Americans because the firearm ban and general "guns are silly" attitude of our population hasn't worked at all!

Common household items yes, but sometimes intermediate weapons can't help you against a larger or armed intruder...

in which case its best to leave rather than risk your life everyday

You don't think roving gangs are an issue if a disaster occured? As if somehow people are generally kinder in a country with a similar culture? Okay, I will only go so far as to convice you of something... I crossed that point, and I will only leave the above rhetorical question for you to ponder.

um...yeah we just go to the pub really when the power goes out, hell Northampton flooded in 97 I ended up taking a boat ride

the wonders of having a community thats not-really-divided-but-uncomfortable-talking

I've been debating, that poster I called an idiot threw the word Fucktards or something of that nature... So I fight fire with fire, don't try to roast me for following suit...

She said "a whole fuckton of americans"

I fail to see the insult in there

Katrina was a return to barbarism, hardly the end of the world

And the 'end of civilisation'?

what you will need for survival in some horrific environment will be different to day to day beans on toast (hence why most food delivered to refugees and such is boxes of ration packs filled with yummy carbs)

I have my doubts of whither you could get enough nutrients from tinned food especially the crap they put in tinned food (though you could try dog food that would keep you happy till you catch salmonella of course)



they couldn't afford to leave being poor does that

Not the 80s, the type got a lot of attention during that decade but they didn't disappear. You are assuming I'm some sort of anarcho-racist bigot? You must be assuming I am white aren't you?

I meant we have known about all the horrors for awhile now there not recent (you should of got this by the highlighting of recent)

Solar panels don't cost that much... BP sells high capacity units for as little as 500, get a deep cycle battery and you have a source of constant light. Not that extreme... Using it now will pay itself off in only a few years.[/QUOTE]

oh I see you just want a light you see I thought you wanted a source of hot water or something silly like that

yes ammo, I'm surprised you are shocked at this statement - you say you can defend for youself? Without a firearm I am interested in how you will do this... Please tell...[/QUOTE]

well:

1) firearms are high maintenance equipment when there being used especially the tacky ones an American civilian will use (not on insult but your army uses M-16's so I guess thats the best you will have)

2) creating some mega fortress wont work just because as a rule they never work

your better off just moving off whenever some heavily armed gang comes along



I has nose-biting skillz! :p[/QUOTE]

Oh now we have a survival expert!

For the record I don't use anything built on the AR platform for the reasons you stated... An army can do fine with it, I don't have the logistics. And other designs are not high maintenence... You should know this if you are acting like the M16 is not a good weapon, and expect me think you know anything about firearms...

Canned food is cheaper than MREs, keeps longer too...

Mega Fortress? I plan to stay in my home, you are making assumptions...

Katrina isn't a recent horror?

You would be surprised what you can do with a deep cycle battery and a solar panel... Start a car, start a fire, heat water and food, etc... So much for the survival expert... And having a light is helpful... Good luck cooking in the dark...

Nope, I disagree - disaster preparedness? Now you are debating the definition of terms, perhaps a sign of panic...

Or an attempt to clarify a poor OP

The word I used was "fuckton." As in, "a whole fuckton of your fellow Americans don't have an extra hundred bucks to spare."

"Fuckton" is a slang term I use, meaning "a really lot." It's not an insult. Sorry if there was confusion about that.


Okay I made a mistake, I'll admit it... You can have an apology for calling you an idiot, just try to look at the subject a little more objectively - I fail to see why a fucktron of us can't afford to prepare, is a valid argument against preparing.

I've been debating, that poster I called an idiot threw the word Fucktards or something of that nature... So I fight fire with fire, don't try to roast me for following suit...
The word I used was "fuckton." As in, "a whole fuckton of your fellow Americans don't have an extra hundred bucks to spare."

"Fuckton" is a slang term I use, meaning "a really lot." It's not an insult. Sorry if there was confusion about that.

Or an attempt to clarify a poor OP

No, because it is off topic... Debating terms, we all know what I am talking about - Does it matter what it is called? Does it make it politically correct and therefore acceptable? Flawed logic my friend...

No, because it is off topic... Debating terms, we all know what I am talking about - Does it matter what it is called? Does it make it politically correct and therefore acceptable? Flawed logic my friend...

I'd just like to point out that if you had just let me keep my roving band of maniacs, then none of this would have happened. :)

There where indeed many flooded towns across the UK a few months ago, not one riot, or looting attempt, not one single report of people trying to predate from those in trouble, the goverment and emergancy services done their part and all was well in the end.

So perhaps yes, differant people in differant countries act in differant ways during similar circumstances.


We had flooding south of here this month... Floods aren't a big deal normally, did the police run for their lives? A simple flood is different than a massive flood, although it is wise to be prepared for both...

When the government cannot act, that is the kind of disaster you really need a firearm for... Again, I point to Katrina... We have floods all over the US every year, but the scale of Katrina causes widespread panic and disorder in the region of the disaster...

You know the laws better than I, however you can lie to the government... I promise... And it is about as immoral as hiding Jews from Hitler... IE... Not immoral at all...

Common household items yes, but sometimes intermediate weapons can't help you against a larger or armed intruder...

You don't think roving gangs are an issue if a disaster occured? As if somehow people are generally kinder in a country with a similar culture? Okay, I will only go so far as to convice you of something... I crossed that point, and I will only leave the above rhetorical question for you to ponder.

There where indeed many flooded towns across the UK a few months ago, not one riot, or looting attempt, not one single report of people trying to predate from those in trouble, the goverment and emergancy services done their part and all was well in the end.

So perhaps yes, differant people in differant countries act in differant ways during similar circumstances.

I'm going for the looting option myself.

I prepare for nothing! Nothing I tell you.

What not even your looting cloths?

I do not.

Because odds are low that a disaster would cross my path.

In live in a stable area. Sure everything could happen.

But look at it, this way: if you don't have sex, it looks silly to wear a condom. No?

No, because it is off topic... Debating terms, we all know what I am talking about - Does it matter what it is called? Does it make it politically correct and therefore acceptable? Flawed logic my friend...

I'm not completely clear on your definition of survivalism. Perhaps you would like to state it explicitly

Assertions that others are wrong do not make it so

What not even your looting cloths?

I shall loot the finest fashion houses first for I wish to look dandy while I loot.

It's a must.

Most civilians have much better taste in rifles than Uncle Sam does. I know a few jackasses who spend ludicrous amounts of money on AR-15s, but most people I know with assault rifles (which is quite a few people, as I do live in Michigan) have more sensible rifles.

even the best firearms need frequent service (as in whenever possible) when there being used in a combat environment something which civilians (unless they happen to be an armorer or something) really can't provide

you are dealing with controlled explosions after all

I'm not completely clear on your definition of survivalism. Perhaps you would like to state it explicitly

Assertions that others are wrong do not make it so

Preparing for an event, the kind of such that would seriously hamper one's ability to eat and find shelter (IE SURVIVE) from the elements even if only a few days. Where government response is limited, as with any disaster it will be at first... The greater the disaster, the longer this limited response duration will be...

I am at risk even from the nuclear plants in Michigan, even though I am pro nuclear and I think a meltdown is less likely than devistating flooding, I still am prepared to deal with fallout...

The goal here... Is SURVIVE... You don't know how long the whole county will be out of service when the disaster strikes...

I'd just like to point out that if you had just let me keep my roving band of maniacs, then none of this would have happened. :)
I'm interesting in joining your band, but I'm not sure about this whole "roving" bit. If I'm expected to spend more than an hour a day roving, I'm gonna need some kind of Mad Max-ish vehicle to cart my lazy ass around.

Amg, somebody needs to make a new thread:

"What would you loot first?"

Assuming your fundamentals are taken care of (food, water, etc), what would you loot first?

Screw the fundamentals, fashion first!

My sartorial standards must be met.

EDIT: Seems Jolt is agreeing with me and placing my views high above the rest :)

You know the laws better than I, however you can lie to the government... I promise... And it is about as immoral as hiding Jews from Hitler... IE... Not immoral at all...
You can be reasonably sure that they'll check that you're likely to be hunting rabbits with your new shotgun, and I think you also need references and such. It's more trouble than it's worth. Besides, go and check what proportion of the population own guns (and even what proportion of crimes are committed with them, if you like).
If you really want to shoot stuff crossbows are cheap.

Common household items yes, but sometimes intermediate weapons can't help you against a larger or armed intruder...

You don't think roving gangs are an issue if a disaster occured? As if somehow people are generally kinder in a country with a similar culture? Okay, I will only go so far as to convice you of something... I crossed that point, and I will only leave the above rhetorical question for you to ponder.
Remember how small Britain is. Also consider how many natural disasters we get, and on what scale they are. And, frankly, our cultures are quite different.
We do get the occasional flood, of course. Living in a second* floor flat on the top of a hill, I'm not really worried; if my flat floods there wouldn't be a lot I could store in its thirty square metres that would save me.

*"Third" in American.

even the best firearms need frequent service (as in whenever possible) when there being used in a combat environment something which civilians (unless they happen to be an armorer or something) really can't provide

you are dealing with controlled explosions after all

Spare parts, and a standard cleaning kit... Can't provide? So I don't have an armorer's ability, is that a reason to not have a firearm? Even if it only works a few times?

Even a car is dealing with a controlled explosion, not above my concept level...

I shall loot the finest fashion houses first for I wish to look dandy while I loot.

It's a must.
Amg, somebody needs to make a new thread:

"What would you loot first?"

Assuming your fundamentals are taken care of (food, water, etc), what would you loot first?

I'm interesting in joining your band, but I'm not sure about this whole "roving" bit. If I'm expected to spend more than an hour a day roving, I'm gonna need some kind of Mad Max-ish vehicle to cart my lazy ass around.

Well, I was thinking more of the nomadic sense. But I think modes of transportation are a must. We'll need something to cart around the supplies, mud wrestling ring, and dirty movies in after all. :)

Amg, somebody needs to make a new thread:

"What would you loot first?"

Assuming your fundamentals are taken care of (food, water, etc), what would you loot first?

Yes start a new thread, I see this will no longer be a useful thread so long as you all start spamming...

I have to get back up on the roof, I have only 6 feet of shingles to run then I'm half done with the whole project...

Yes start a new thread, I see this will no longer be a useful thread so long as you all start spamming...

I have to get back up on the roof, I have only 6 feet of shingles to run then I'm half done with the whole project...

Dress well my fine furry friend, dress well.

Oh now we have a survival expert!

pfft I has army tent putting up skillz!!!

And other designs are not high maintenence...

hmmm so you have some sort of mag-rail that doesn't need frequent maintenance, well done you have invented what every nation on Earth has been working on but has gradually given up on!

tell me do your toy guns also never receive stoppages?

Canned food is cheaper than MREs, keeps longer too...

because its not designed to be used as a primary food source for people working in harsh environments unless you have some kind of miracle beans that give 4,000 calories

Mega Fortress? I plan to stay in my home, you are making assumptions...

and you presume your going to fight off gangs from a house :confused:

Katrina isn't a recent horror?

Katrina was only a horror for those stuck there which was the poor and those too stubborn to leave

You would be surprised what you can do with a deep cycle battery and a solar panel... Start a car, start a fire, heat water and food, etc... So much for the survival expert... And having a light is helpful... Good luck cooking in the dark...

your seriously overestimating what you can do with a days worth of sunlight, not to mention forgetting that you need none of this for survival (and I assume your museums shows cavemen with lanterns or something)

tell me do you have any survival training at all or just a few books and your uncle?

Preparing for an event, the kind of such that would seriously hamper one's ability to eat and find shelter (IE SURVIVE) from the elements even if only a few days. Where government response is limited, as with any disaster it will be at first... The greater the disaster, the longer this limited response duration will be...

I am at risk even from the nuclear plants in Michigan, even though I am pro nuclear and I think a meltdown is less likely than devistating flooding, I still am prepared to deal with fallout...

The goal here... Is SURVIVE... You don't know how long the whole county will be out of service when the disaster strikes...

Annnnd you really think that civilisation would degrade to such a state in these two days, that the keeping of weaponry to 'protect' presumably your stocks, is a must?

Would you then rather shoot the man that stumbles onto your land asking for aid, rather than give him aid?

What happens if you do that and then two days later all is fine again?

Spare parts, and a standard cleaning kit... Can't provide? So I don't have an armorer's ability, is that a reason to not have a firearm? Even if it only works a few times?

yes because you will become a danger to yourself and those around you running around waving some broken gun pondering why you keep having stoppages

Even a car is dealing with a controlled explosion, not above my concept level...

your car breaks down every few months?

tell me do you have any survival training at all or just a few books and your uncle?
Yeah, that's one of the key problems with "survivalists" that my original post in this thread was alluding to. Namely, they tend to hold what I believe is a very unrealistic image of "disaster." Some preparative measures are sensible, but others merely seem sensible when they really aren't the best choices. What bugs me is that so many survivalists are obsessed with making preparations and piling up stuff for Judgment Day, yet their obsession doesn't actually lead them to study up on what measures would really be the wisest.

(Of course, a whole lot of them get side-tracked into reading gun magazines and putting various chains on the tires of their trucks. That stuff is entertaining, so I can't blame anybody for being more interested in that than in reading up on which food items are best to stock up on.)

What bugs me is that so many survivalists are obsessed with making preparations and piling up stuff for Judgment Day, yet their obsession doesn't actually lead them to study up on what measures would really be the wisest.

well it is just a hobby they will get bored by afternoon and go back to civilization after they find out they can't have the TV and the blender on at the same time

Yeah, that's one of the key problems with "survivalists" that my original post in this thread was alluding to. Namely, they tend to hold what I believe is a very unrealistic image of "disaster." Some preparative measures are sensible, but others merely seem sensible when they really aren't the best choices. What bugs me is that so many survivalists are obsessed with making preparations and piling up stuff for Judgment Day, yet their obsession doesn't actually lead them to study up on what measures would really be the wisest.

(Of course, a whole lot of them get side-tracked into reading gun magazines and putting various chains on the tires of their trucks. That stuff is entertaining, so I can't blame anybody for being more interested in that than in reading up on which food items are best to stock up on.)

Agree with you fully here. Majority of the survivalists are more interested in "Guns 'n' Ammo" than with "Survivorman." I was actually on a wilderness survival course (used to do a good bit of backpacking out in fairly remote areas, so wanted to be prepared). Lot of the people in the class were looking to find out how to build their bunker - they were quite depressed when they found out the course was geared around how to build temporary shelters and what bit of ants were the tastiest...

Agree with you fully here. Majority of the survivalists are more interested in "Guns 'n' Ammo" than with "Survivorman." I was actually on a wilderness survival course (used to do a good bit of backpacking out in fairly remote areas, so wanted to be prepared). Lot of the people in the class were looking to find out how to build their bunker - they were quite depressed when they found out the course was geared around how to build temporary shelters and what bit of ants were the tastiest...
Pretty much everything I know about "roughing it" was taught to me by my Animal Behavior professor. He used to do a lot of field research on birds and he loved doing out-door laboratories. While we were hiking to wherever our lesson was to be held, he'd tell us about how he'd slap together a lean-to because he didn't want to leave sight of a nest, or how he'd forage for eatables as he hiked because he didn't want to pack lots of food (as it would take up space that he'd rather use for his camera stuff).

The government recommends every family have a 72 hour pack. A backpack with the things necessary to survive 3 days. It really isn't the difficult or expensive. I built one for each of my college daughters and one for me for less than $100 each. The girls thought I was crazy but found times that they needed something and it was in the pack. When a tornado went through IA State my daughter sat in the dorm basement with her pack, knowing that if anything happened to the building she had food and water and everything else to survive.

Just think how much different things would have been in N Orleans if even a small number had survival bags.

Pretty much everything I know about "roughing it" was taught to me by my Animal Behavior professor. He used to do a lot of field research on birds and he loved doing out-door laboratories. While we were hiking to wherever our lesson was to be held, he'd tell us about how he'd slap together a lean-to because he didn't want to leave sight of a nest, or how he'd forage for eatables as he hiked because he didn't want to pack lots of food (as it would take up space that he'd rather use for his camera stuff).

There are people like the professor in the above quoted post who could easily survive in the bush, and yet some people seem to struggle with the idea of pulling the plastic wrapper from a slice of cheese. It's so sad.

There are some people who don't know the first thing about survival, and I intend to not be one of them.

Dress well my fine furry friend, dress well.

All done, only lost one shingle from the strong winds we are having...

Does a t-shirt and jeans define well dressed? I hope I didn't embarrass the wife...

pfft I has army tent putting up skillz!!!



hmmm so you have some sort of mag-rail that doesn't need frequent maintenance, well done you have invented what every nation on Earth has been working on but has gradually given up on!

tell me do your toy guns also never receive stoppages?



because its not designed to be used as a primary food source for people working in harsh environments unless you have some kind of miracle beans that give 4,000 calories



and you presume your going to fight off gangs from a house :confused:



Katrina was only a horror for those stuck there which was the poor and those too stubborn to leave



your seriously overestimating what you can do with a days worth of sunlight, not to mention forgetting that you need none of this for survival (and I assume your museums shows cavemen with lanterns or something)

tell me do you have any survival training at all or just a few books and your uncle?

I never said I didn't maintain my weapons, on the contrary I clean them quite often... In fact I carry a weapon for a living, don't know where you could assume I let them fall apart...

Anyway, if you know guns you surely know of a few designs that will keep popping aside from a few stove pipes?

Fight off gangs from my house? Why yes! That is the best place, what with all the choke points a house has... Silly person, do you know anything of combat? I seriously doubt I'll have a gang "stacking up" outside my door...

Exactly what good is food if it won't do the job? I do go beyond just canned goods, I rotate other stock... But I'm not exactly talking about heading to the hills here, never was... I said a few pages back I don't have a bugout vehicle, no need for one...

No it is not needed for survival, but it extends "daytime" by having a light... Why have tools? Haven't they improved the human condition since the first idiot beat another idiot over the head with a rock?

Survival training? I can set a snare, obtain water, start a fire... I'm not running to the hills, as if I should say it again... I'm an avid hunter, those are required skills...

Annnnd you really think that civilisation would degrade to such a state in these two days, that the keeping of weaponry to 'protect' presumably your stocks, is a must?

Would you then rather shoot the man that stumbles onto your land asking for aid, rather than give him aid?

What happens if you do that and then two days later all is fine again?

Well lets think here, you can pretty much gauge how long you will be on your own... Having a dynamo-radio helps... even a radio with batteries...

And now you assume I would shoot the first person I see, seriously - don't make assumptions... I carry a weapon for a living, I would only use it per use of force guidelines... Only to ensure survival...

And no, I would not give anyone aid... It's called "looking out for number 1"... In a lawless area, no one will afford you the grace... Don't expect to get any... In my case, number one is my family... Even friends are on their own...

Now, that isn't to say I would not dive in and help the community in other ways... However if there is a definite long term situation, no one takes my supplies... I don't maintain a community stash...

You need to be able to differentiate situations, there is no "golden rule" in this... I don't have a procedure for this...

Step one, count food
Step two, turn on radio
Step three, load firearm
Step four, shoot intruders
Step five, eat food
Step six, barricade house
Step seven, remind people how rediculous this would be...

yes because you will become a danger to yourself and those around you running around waving some broken gun pondering why you keep having stoppages



your car breaks down every few months?



nope and nope... I maintain both... And how is a malfunctioning firearm a danger? I might blow out the magazine, but you are talking barrel obstructions or the like...

I have a reliable car, and a reliable firearm... I do have weapons that will jam if I don't maintain them... Guess where they will be in a situation... In their case...

Again you assume... tisk tisk... why do you all make such gross assumptions? Thats something a lib might do, yet they get so mad if it is done to them...

Agree with you fully here. Majority of the survivalists are more interested in "Guns 'n' Ammo" than with "Survivorman." I was actually on a wilderness survival course (used to do a good bit of backpacking out in fairly remote areas, so wanted to be prepared). Lot of the people in the class were looking to find out how to build their bunker - they were quite depressed when they found out the course was geared around how to build temporary shelters and what bit of ants were the tastiest...

I don't even have an NRA membership (although I should)...

Survivorman might be good for a few pointers if you really find yourself in the middle of nowhere... But what the hell are you doing in a desert anyway?

Yeesh... as if wilderness survival was the topic I started anyway...

Besides Les (whatever his name is) from survival man has made mistakes... He is still a fine survivalist, point being you don't have to be an expert to do wilderness survival... Food, Fire, Water, Shelter... The rest comes secondary...

even the best firearms need frequent service (as in whenever possible) when there being used in a combat environment something which civilians (unless they happen to be an armorer or something) really can't provide

you are dealing with controlled explosions after all

Most weapons don't need armorer level maintenance that often. Well, the overly complex M-16/M-4 family does (I was in the Army for 4 years, and oh how I hate them) but many of the simpler ones don't. I know a lot of people with AK-47's and SKS's who have never had to do maintenance on them more than simple cleaning.

On Survivalists:

Survivalists do what they feel is necessary (emphasis on they, please)(thank you); Federal Wisconsin has many good points, and it seems to me that he has a lot of experience in both natural survival and firearms use/maintenance. (I hate the M-16, oh how I hate it. Personally, in a survival situation, I'd have an AK-74 or AK-47, they are more reliable and don't require cleaning as much, and the AK-47 has a bigger round.) Why everyone has such a problem with survivalists in the first place is beyond me. This is, well, their personal decision to make.

On Firearms:

I own a firearm or two, and I can say that you don't really need that much training to maintain a rifle, shotgun, or handgun. (By the way, crossbows can be even more deadly than a firearm, due to the fact that they are, well, nearly silent in comparison. Whereas silencers on any firearm are difficult to obtain. Notice that they generally have the same potential.) Controlled explosions are pretty common. Not only cars and guns, but nuclear reactors, fireworks, and demolition charges are 'controlled' explosions. (Reactors going critical, anyone?)

Being prepared to survive in disaster situations is never a bad thing. Even if you don't stock up on food/water/ammunition, it is good to know basic things like starting a fire, snares, edible plants, and constructing shelters.

Decent survival guide, but geared towards the military(specifically the U.S military). Don't read the "How to survive in a nuclear environment' section, if you are depressed. (http://www.survivaliq.com/survival/introduction.htm)

I don't live in an area prone to disasters, nor where having a fireman is necessary or even legal, and I am a student. My parents are reasonably well equipped though.

Most weapons don't need armorer level maintenance that often. Well, the overly complex M-16/M-4 family does (I was in the Army for 4 years, and oh how I hate them) but many of the simpler ones don't. I know a lot of people with AK-47's and SKS's who have never had to do maintenance on them more than simple cleaning.

Yes, AR platform... Is one of the weapons I carry, oh how I hate them as well...

Granted they are far more accurate than an AK because they have such tight tolerance - but unless you have an armorer to maintain them, they won't last...

Now if I had an M4 that was well broken in, I would ALMOST rely on it...

I don't live in an area prone to disasters, nor where having a fireman is necessary or even legal, and I am a student. My parents are reasonably well equipped though.

:p

:p

We made fires illegal in Britain in 1666.

On Survivalists:

Survivalists do what they feel is necessary (emphasis on they, please)(thank you); Federal Wisconsin has many good points, and it seems to me that he has a lot of experience in both natural survival and firearms use/maintenance. (I hate the M-16, oh how I hate it. Personally, in a survival situation, I'd have an AK-74 or AK-47, they are more reliable and don't require cleaning as much, and the AK-47 has a bigger round.) Why everyone has such a problem with survivalists in the first place is beyond me. This is, well, their personal decision to make.


Yes, the AK type action is very reliable aside from a few stovepipes (and that is minor) every thousand rounds.

And so long as you don't use corrosive ammo and primers, you literally could fire a few hundred rounds, bury it for a week, then put another hundred out of the business end.

The SKS, in my experience is even more reliable than an AK - they get such a bad rap as a "bubba" gun that is good for nothing... And by "bubba" I mean buying all sorts of aftermarket parts that turn it into something it isn't... They are a fine rifle in their stock layout, and very economical to own and shoot... 300 bucks will get you an SKS and 500 rounds easily.

It can't do anything extremely well, but it does everything good enough...

:p

Lol, my mistake. Firearm, silly.:p

I never said I didn't maintain my weapons, on the contrary I clean them quite often... In fact I carry a weapon for a living, don't know where you could assume I let them fall apart...

so you work on the carnival stand at a theme park or something? weapons need constant heavy maintenance in extreme situations I'd like to know what job you do go on enlighten me (who wants to bet its another US marine)

Fight off gangs from my house? Why yes! That is the best place, what with all the choke points a house has..

nope houses are generally (unless you happen to live in some sort of war zone) not built for defensive fighting your better off in the woodland or something along those lines rather than slogging it out shooting the crap out of your house

I do go beyond just canned goods, I rotate other stock... But I'm not exactly talking about heading to the hills here, never was...

and this other stock would be?
and you do realize your going to need allot of food to survive even if you decide to hang about your house all day?

No it is not needed for survival, but it extends "daytime" by having a light... Why have tools? Haven't they improved the human condition since the first idiot beat another idiot over the head with a rock?

so your going to have a light going off in the middle of a blacked out city to erm...read Hello magazine I'm guessing

well at least you have ammo I guess you may as well use it

Survival training? I can set a snare, obtain water, start a fire... I'm not running to the hills, as if I should say it again... I'm an avid hunter, those are required skills...

but your mother never told you to avoid staying put in obvious places? or that when you shooting every gangster in the city your gun will need looking after?

I maintain both...

so you have your mechanic look at your car every year or so? well gee whiz you' know your gun needs that as well just on a much regular basis!

And how is a malfunctioning firearm a danger? I might blow out the magazine, but you are talking barrel obstructions or the like...

Murphy's law applies well to firearms I would of thought a rifle carnie would know better

I have a reliable car, and a reliable firearm

cars and firearms are never reliable hence why mechanics make a killing

Thats something a lib might do, yet they get so mad if it is done to them...

I'm European sugar if your trying to insult the conservative in me your going to have a job

I was in the Army for 4 years

oh god you was in the army and you don't understand weapon maintenance :eek:

I know a lot of people with AK-47's and SKS's who have never had to do maintenance on them more than simple cleaning.

playing about on a shooting range is a different level of wear and tear to actually using them in an extreme environment

though I'm sure they always shoot the guys to there left and right

I own a firearm or two, and I can say that you don't really need that much training to maintain a rifle, shotgun, or handgun.

so long as its locked away in your closet unfortunately weapons tend to be quite sensitives when it comes to being able to hit a target straight or avoid stoppages

Controlled explosions are pretty common. Not only cars and guns, but nuclear reactors, fireworks, and demolition charges are 'controlled' explosions. (Reactors going critical, anyone?)

all of which are used very carefully and receive proper care

so you work on the carnival stand at a theme park or something? weapons need constant heavy maintenance in extreme situations I'd like to know what job you do go on enlighten me (who wants to bet its another US marine)



nope houses are generally (unless you happen to live in some sort of war zone) not built for defensive fighting your better off in the woodland or something along those lines rather than slogging it out shooting the crap out of your house



and this other stock would be?
and you do realize your going to need allot of food to survive even if you decide to hang about your house all day?



so your going to have a light going off in the middle of a blacked out city to erm...read Hello magazine I'm guessing

well at least you have ammo I guess you may as well use it



but your mother never told you to avoid staying put in obvious places? or that when you shooting every gangster in the city your gun will need looking after?



so you have your mechanic look at your car every year or so? well gee whiz you' know your gun needs that as well just on a much regular basis!



Murphy's law applies well to firearms I would of thought a rifle carnie would know better



cars and firearms are never reliable hence why mechanics make a killing



I'm European sugar if your trying to insult the conservative in me your going to have a job



oh god you was in the army and you don't understand weapon maintenance :eek:



playing about on a shooting range is a different level of wear and tear to actually using them in an extreme environment

though I'm sure they always shoot the guys to there left and right



so long as its locked away in your closet unfortunately weapons tend to be quite sensitives when it comes to being able to hit a target straight or avoid stoppages



all of which are used very carefully and receive proper care

Well, I'll address these in order...

See now you are jumping off the bridge to say I am a carnie - couldn't be further from the truth - now I cannot be specific however for reasons of blackmail... from certain groups of people... No you can't get me fired for my personal beliefs anyway, more than one crackpot lib has tried - got a prison sentence out of it too... (and flame away, I really can't divulge my profession... not on a public board like this... poke fun all you like, I cannot divulge specifically what I do... so you have a target...)

Who said anything about a war zone? You assume once again! I don't expect to survive a shelling in my house! However I am not to concerned about gangsters having rifles! Common pistol rounds are not lethal after passing through a wall!

Yes you do need a lot of food... If you plan on being holed up for a long time... However to avoid "rabbit starvation" style issues - I do keep some alternative protein sources...

And you would be surprised how long you can survive on rationed food - In these situations I am talking about - I won't need to find food, that wastes energy... I will simply ride it out and take things slow... 2000 cals/day is not required to survive...

So I suppose absolute darkness and no other option is a good idea? I didn't say I had to keep it on, however sometimes you NEED light... Running the light to read is silly and dangerous...

What makes you think I would let people see my light? You once again assume!

I would stay put, and remain unobvious... Someone questioned if I could survive in the wild, that was my answer... Nothing to do with the topic I started...

Do firearms have all sorts of wires and electronics? Actually I can provide armorer service to my weapons...

I never said something won't go wrong... You are really trying to beat this angle to death aren't you? Are you simply anti-gun? Oh wait... European... nevermind, I could never convince you... European acting like a firearms expert... You can't stand the idea of private firearm ownership, so you discredit it's usefullness - to no avail... Do not discuss the firearms topic with me, until you pick up an AK or SKS... Those crappy western european firearms are junk, Drop the gas piston on a G36 and try to fire it... Or take the FN FAL for example... Better yet... the SA-80, terrible malfunctions from a little bit of sand... No wonder you think every weapon is bound for self desctruction...

And I've used firearms in the field, not just the range... Crappy M16s will fail even with serious attention, as will the FAL, G3, G36, SA-80... AKs and SKSs eventually fail, key word... eventually... I can actually drop mine in the sand and still fire it...

Well, I was thinking more of the nomadic sense. But I think modes of transportation are a must. We'll need something to cart around the supplies, mud wrestling ring, and dirty movies in after all. :)

For 800 clowns? One moped will suffice. And a clown human tower.

For 800 clowns? One moped will suffice. And a clown human tower.

Yeah, but that's kind of cramped. Any more than around 700 clowns on a moped and there's no room to stretch. *nod*

Well lets think here, you can pretty much gauge how long you will be on your own... Having a dynamo-radio helps... even a radio with batteries...

And now you assume I would shoot the first person I see, seriously - don't make assumptions... I carry a weapon for a living, I would only use it per use of force guidelines... Only to ensure survival...

And no, I would not give anyone aid... It's called "looking out for number 1"... In a lawless area, no one will afford you the grace... Don't expect to get any... In my case, number one is my family... Even friends are on their own...

Now, that isn't to say I would not dive in and help the community in other ways... However if there is a definite long term situation, no one takes my supplies... I don't maintain a community stash...

You need to be able to differentiate situations, there is no "golden rule" in this... I don't have a procedure for this...

Step one, count food
Step two, turn on radio
Step three, load firearm
Step four, shoot intruders
Step five, eat food
Step six, barricade house
Step seven, remind people how rediculous this would be...

Hehe you are funny, that's about the umpmtenth time you have accused others of assuming.

Please tell me which of my words made you assume, that I assumed anything about you?

You see this symbol ? That denotes that a question has been asked. I asked
wether you would aid a trespasser or shoot him, question, not assumption.

Sticking with assumption though. The gist of my posts to you have been of the 'do you really belive that it will happen' verity. Are you not by using such language as 'looking out for number 1"... In a lawless area' assuming that such lawlessless will happen? Also by saying such things as 'no one will afford you the grace... Don't expect to get any' do you not assume the worst of your fellow man?

I think you a newbie here assume much, listen to nowt, and have flawed arguments for your stance. That's okay though it seems to be the unwritten law on these 'net forums that newbies will make an arse of themselves before they manage to gauge the level of other users, I of course am not immune to this as I'm sure the people that remember my first few posts here will testify!

Okay, traditionally survivalists have been viewed as crazy hermits who hope for the downfall of civilization. While this could not be further from the truth.

With recent political/civil turmoil around the world, global warming and natural disasters, the energy crunch, are they really crazy?

Survivalists often strive to be self sufficient
Do they really seem crazy now?


And no, I would not give anyone aid... It's called "looking out for number 1"... In a lawless area, no one will afford you the grace... Don't expect to get any... In my case, number one is my family... Even friends are on their own...

Step one, count food
Step two, turn on radio
Step three, load firearm
Step four, shoot intruders
Step five, eat food
Step six, barricade house
Step seven, remind people how rediculous this would be...

It's somehow comforting that it took three pages or so before the looniness came to the fore. Those who style themselves survivalists have a disconcerting tendency to look forward to TEOCAWKI. I think it's a combination of "let's go camping" and seeing themselves as heroes, cut from the rugged individualist mold. And what better way to demonstrate their heroic nature than to prevail when zombies ^H^H ravening hordes ^H^H thieving neighbors try to take their stash.

Preparing sensibly for disasters that are likely to occur in your area: rational.
Preparing for the end of civilization as we know it: irrational.

and flame away, I really can't divulge my profession... not on a public board like this... poke fun all you like, I cannot divulge specifically what I do... so you have a target...


and if you told me you would have to kill me right? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKuQXGrFSQ0&mode=related&search=)

please go back to McDonald's your shift starts soon

Who said anything about a war zone? You assume once again! I don't expect to survive a shelling in my house! However I am not to concerned about gangsters having rifles! Common pistol rounds are not lethal after passing through a wall!

awww bless your heart: combat zone = zone of combat = your little struggle against teh ebil liberal pot smoking gangs

Yes you do need a lot of food... If you plan on being holed up for a long time... However to avoid "rabbit starvation" style issues - I do keep some alternative protein sources...

what you going to have a burger with those beans or something? Special sauce? please try to think about the research that goes into ration packs and why they do that research

And you would be surprised how long you can survive on rationed food - In these situations I am talking about - I won't need to find food, that wastes energy... I will simply ride it out and take things slow... 2000 cals/day is not required to survive...

So now instead of having a healthy diet your goanna ride through disaster on your box of Hershey’s and a gameboy

So I suppose absolute darkness and no other option is a good idea?

Yes didn’t you learn concealment and how to preserve night vision in “the army” (well okay I guess your night vision will go when your starving to death on Twinkies but I’m sure that’s not your big battle plan eh?)

I didn't say I had to keep it on, however sometimes you NEED light

For what? You planning on looking good in bed or something?

What makes you think I would let people see my light? You once again assume!

:eek: so you’ve achieved what the Vietcong couldn’t in the jungle! Tell me what’s your idea behind this shutting the curtains? Or just getting a dimmer?

I would stay put, and remain unobvious

Doesn’t sound like you could manage that

Actually I can provide armorer service to my weapons...

Considering you can’t even spell armourer I would take some sort of life insurance before you try this maybe use that hand one last time

European acting like a firearms expert...

Yes we have militaries! You’ know the ones that your army shoots at

Do not discuss the until you pick up an AK or SKS...

Have though its clear all you have done is read a comic book on Vietnam

the SA-80, terrible malfunctions from a little bit of sand... No wonder you think every weapon is bound for self desctruction...

Erm…SA-80 = small arms for the 1980’s now in case you haven’t noticed this is 2007 hence why we use the A2 now you should know how we spent millions making the gun durable and no the rifle will fair a hell of allot better than that rusty old shotgun you keep next to the beers

Crappy M16s will fail even with serious attention, as will the FAL, G3, G36, SA-80... AKs and SKSs eventually fail, key word... eventually... I can actually drop mine in the sand and still fire it...

look he’s learning! Well now that you understand that weapons fail without serious attention will you at least stop playing with yourself when it comes to the AK it’s a gun! it breaks! yes you can bury it under ground let it rust away then shoot it pretending your hardcore but sadly the world doesn’t work like that you can’t rely on a weapon to work without being properly looked after especially when you’ know you might actually need to fire the weapon

It's somehow comforting that it took three pages or so before the looniness came to the fore. Those who style themselves survivalists have a disconcerting tendency to look forward to TEOCAWKI. I think it's a combination of "let's go camping" and seeing themselves as heroes, cut from the rugged individualist mold. And what better way to demonstrate their heroic nature than to prevail when zombies ^H^H ravening hordes ^H^H thieving neighbors try to take their stash.

Preparing sensibly for disasters that are likely to occur in your area: rational.
Preparing for the end of civilization as we know it: irrational.
Bingo.

I'm frequently wrong, so it's very satisfying when I'm exactly right. I will now proceed to gloat over the fact that I correctly predicted this survivalist's mentality on Page 1.

*gloats*



I think you a newbie here assume much, listen to nowt, and have flawed arguments for your stance. That's okay though it seems to be the unwritten law on these 'net forums that newbies will make an arse of themselves before they manage to gauge the level of other users, I of course am not immune to this as I'm sure the people that remember my first few posts here will testify!

Yeah, it usually takes a bit for new folk to learn that they're not impressing anybody when they strut around puffing out their chest about how many ways they are gonna shoot the bad guys, and they're not the first person to come around here claiming to have some super-secret (and undoubtedly awesome) job that they just can't reveal because then they'd have to kill ya.

It's an internet forum, folks, and we're all deeply jaded around here. Nobody cares about the size of the gun you're stroking as you type to us.

I live in the midwest. The only common disaster is tornados, but they haven't come into the city in my lifetime (and I'm not that young). The biggest disaster I've experienced was an icestorm that took my my power for a week. However, though enough people were without power to clog the hotels, many people, including my mom, still had power. Perhaps I'm a little complacent, but for good reason. It really doesn't happen here. :p

I have no problem stocking extra food & water. A bad snowstorm CAN keep me from the store for a few days, and it makes sense to prepare for that. But, what if we DID have a collapse of civilization? Do you know how many gangs there are in my area NOW? Yeah, my house is reasonably defensible, but after fending off a gang of 6 on Monday, a gang of 20 on Tuesday, and another gang of 13 and 1/2 (they have one midget) Wednesday, I'd probably be getting short of ammo, and the flesh wound that midget gave me before I dropped him really hurts!

Of course, I could head for the hills like the hard-core suggests, but squirrel tastes terrible! Or so I've heard; I've never actually eaten it.

Hehe you are funny, that's about the umpmtenth time you have accused others of assuming.

Please tell me which of my words made you assume, that I assumed anything about you?

You see this symbol ? That denotes that a question has been asked. I asked
wether you would aid a trespasser or shoot him, question, not assumption.

Sticking with assumption though. The gist of my posts to you have been of the 'do you really belive that it will happen' verity. Are you not by using such language as 'looking out for number 1"... In a lawless area' assuming that such lawlessless will happen? Also by saying such things as 'no one will afford you the grace... Don't expect to get any' do you not assume the worst of your fellow man?

I think you a newbie here assume much, listen to nowt, and have flawed arguments for your stance. That's okay though it seems to be the unwritten law on these 'net forums that newbies will make an arse of themselves before they manage to gauge the level of other users, I of course am not immune to this as I'm sure the people that remember my first few posts here will testify!


You ask questions? How about petitio principii? Don't accuse me of flawed arguments...

No I don't assume lawlessness will happen, it's called preparing for the worst and hoping for the best...

Newbie? To this forum, yes perhaps... Make an ass of myself? That is a subjective view based on one's views on things...

And for the record, yes I do suspect the worst in mankind - that doesn't mean I would assault any who comes, it does however allow me to work with a certain degree of freedom. This shouldn't be a surprise, you can flame me all you want. There is no factual right or wrong for you to argue. I think you would be an idiot for letting anyone who appears in need, into your home... That would be called a Trojan Horse...

But then again, we are starting to bring the argument down to matters of opinion... Sorry, I'm stubborn - you won't change my mind, and I'll most likely never have to resort to my supplies outside a nasty snow storm or tornado. I prefer it that way actually, I'm not one to hope for the end of the world. I have a good job, a family, a home, 3 cars... I DON'T want that to change... However because I have 3 children and a wife, it is my responsibility to prepare, adapt, and defend them... With my own life if needed...

Personally, I think anyone who doesn't prepare at least a little is a fool! Could they really be so ignorant to assume "it won't happen to me"?

(server issues, double post)

(more issues, tripple post)

and if you told me you would have to kill me right? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKuQXGrFSQ0&mode=related&search=)

please go back to McDonald's your shift starts soon



awww bless your heart: combat zone = zone of combat = your little struggle against teh ebil liberal pot smoking gangs



what you going to have a burger with those beans or something? Special sauce? please try to think about the research that goes into ration packs and why they do that research



So now instead of having a healthy diet your goanna ride through disaster on your box of Hershey’s and a gameboy



Yes didn’t you learn concealment and how to preserve night vision in “the army” (well okay I guess your night vision will go when your starving to death on Twinkies but I’m sure that’s not your big battle plan eh?)



For what? You planning on looking good in bed or something?



:eek: so you’ve achieved what the Vietcong couldn’t in the jungle! Tell me what’s your idea behind this shutting the curtains? Or just getting a dimmer?



Doesn’t sound like you could manage that



Considering you can’t even spell armourer I would take some sort of life insurance before you try this maybe use that hand one last time



Yes we have militaries! You’ know the ones that your army shoots at



Have though its clear all you have done is read a comic book on Vietnam



Erm…SA-80 = small arms for the 1980’s now in case you haven’t noticed this is 2007 hence why we use the A2 now you should know how we spent millions making the gun durable and no the rifle will fair a hell of allot better than that rusty old shotgun you keep next to the beers



look he’s learning! Well now that you understand that weapons fail without serious attention will you at least stop playing with yourself when it comes to the AK it’s a gun! it breaks! yes you can bury it under ground let it rust away then shoot it pretending your hardcore but sadly the world doesn’t work like that you can’t rely on a weapon to work without being properly looked after especially when you’ know you might actually need to fire the weapon


Almost the entire post is ad hominem... you've lost! If you can't argue, flame the poster... So when I start doing that I am no longer a newb?

The SA-80 family, yes even the L85A2 is junk...

The ability of functioning after burying is a testament to the AK's design... Does that mean I would? Of course not...

And again, I never said I would let my weapons deteriorate... Assumptions...

You really are the lesser human (and I use the term human loosely, if only to include you) - I said you can't change my refusal to state my profession... Basically a totally open and free shot to flame me.... And you took the bait...

It's somehow comforting that it took three pages or so before the looniness came to the fore. Those who style themselves survivalists have a disconcerting tendency to look forward to TEOCAWKI. I think it's a combination of "let's go camping" and seeing themselves as heroes, cut from the rugged individualist mold. And what better way to demonstrate their heroic nature than to prevail when zombies ^H^H ravening hordes ^H^H thieving neighbors try to take their stash.

Preparing sensibly for disasters that are likely to occur in your area: rational.
Preparing for the end of civilization as we know it: irrational.

Well, I can see now that you have no interest in being truthful. You misquote me to confirm something that doesn't exist... Then you try to make some sort of Freudian analysis? Where did you steal that quote from?

The "list" of steps was from a satrical post, pointing out that a situation is dynamic and cannot follow any sort of algorithm. You misquoted me and attributed it to my original "begging the question" as if they were one post...

Whats more amazing, is Bottle agreed with this person's lies so Bottle may "gloat"... Looking for personal satisfaction and nothing less...

Whats even yet more amazing... This individual actually started flipping through pages of posts to prove me wrong! I'm flattered!

You ask questions? How about petitio principii? Don't accuse me of flawed arguments...

No I don't assume lawlessness will happen, it's called preparing for the worst and hoping for the best...

Newbie? To this forum, yes perhaps... Make an ass of myself? That is a subjective view based on one's views on things...

And for the record, yes I do suspect the worst in mankind - that doesn't mean I would assault any who comes, it does however allow me to work with a certain degree of freedom. This shouldn't be a surprise, you can flame me all you want. There is no factual right or wrong for you to argue. I think you would be an idiot for letting anyone who appears in need, into your home... That would be called a Trojan Horse...

But then again, we are starting to bring the argument down to matters of opinion... Sorry, I'm stubborn - you won't change my mind, and I'll most likely never have to resort to my supplies outside a nasty snow storm or tornado. I prefer it that way actually, I'm not one to hope for the end of the world. I have a good job, a family, a home, 3 cars... I DON'T want that to change... However because I have 3 children and a wife, it is my responsibility to prepare, adapt, and defend them... With my own life if needed...

Personally, I think anyone who doesn't prepare at least a little is a fool! Could they really be so ignorant to assume "it won't happen to me"?


You are right when you say I won't change you mind, but really, does anybody actualy come here to try and do that?

You say you don't assume and that you prepare for the worst, but the language you use does not indicate this. I can see nowhere where you have said 'just in case', or 'if this happens'. Your posts are full of phrases like:

'I think you would be an idiot for letting anyone who appears in need, into your home... That would be called a Trojan Horse... '

This does not indicate that you are prepearing for the worst while hoping for the best, it says to me that this is an absolute belife of yours. 'That would be a Trojan horse' rather than 'That may be a Trojan horse'

Now you can again accuse me of subjectivly reading your words, and applying my own subjective meaning to them, or you can apply the rules of written English to them and realise that by the words you use, you show your hand.

Personly I think you would be an arsehole to not offer aid to the trespasser, and instead treat him as an enemy out to steal your stock. That my freind you can count as an absolute belife of mine as evidanced by the words I use.

As to flaming, well if you feel that is what I am doing, then accept my appolgise, I thought we where just having a bit of a disagreement.

You are right when you say I won't change you mind, but really, does anybody actualy come here to try and do that?

You say you don't assume and that you prepare for the worst, but the language you use does not indicate this. I can see nowhere where you have said 'just in case', or 'if this happens'. Your posts are full of phrases like:

'I think you would be an idiot for letting anyone who appears in need, into your home... That would be called a Trojan Horse... '

This does not indicate that you are prepearing for the worst while hoping for the best, it says to me that this is an absolute belife of yours. 'That would be a Trojan horse' rather than 'That may be a Trojan horse'

Now you can again accuse me of subjectivly reading your words, and applying my own subjective meaning to them, or you can apply the rules of written English to them and realise that by the words you use, you show your hand.

Personly I think you would be an arsehole to not offer aid to the trespasser, and instead treat him as an enemy out to steal your stock. That my freind you can count as an absolute belife of mine as evidanced by the words I use.

As to flaming, well if you feel that is what I am doing, then accept my appolgise, I thought we where just having a bit of a disagreement.

Flaming is a general accusation, there has been much of this from all directions and I haven't the time nor the care to point fingers individually - so I'd rather point one finger at the whole hostile group. Forgive me if I use a large brush and unduely paint you something you are not...

Yes subjective... You have a pre-biased opinion so your approach follows suit...

Again, I never said I would not offer aid... The situation is largely the major factor in this - However I have a certain degree of freedom by treating all with suspicion...

Now, I have to go to work - luckily only an 8 hour detail, so I will be back later tonight... I hope you all simmer down a bit and actually ask objective questions if you wish to learn, or at least see the views of others... A little less malice and contempt, even if you want to be objective - be a little more neutral than skeptical.

IE - A little less "and or" type questions, you offer alternatives that makes the entire question a fallacy... "do you have MREs or low caloric content food?" Is any food but an MRE low in calories?

Flaming is a general accusation, there has been much of this from all directions and I haven't the time nor the care to point fingers individually - so I'd rather point one finger at the whole hostile group. Forgive me if I use a large brush and unduely paint you something you are not...

Well then I humbly suggest you re-read all of the words that have gone between you and I and see who has been accusatory.


Yes subjective... You have a pre-biased opinion so your approach follows suit...

That is of course true for every single one of us, but I am talking soley about the words that you have written. I'll not quote any more of them just yet, but look back to my last post to you and read your own words, how did you expect them to be taken?


Again, I never said I would not offer aid... The situation is largely the major factor in this - However I have a certain degree of freedom by treating all with suspicion...

ohhhh really? Then I offer up your own words, as set out in post 97.

'And no, I would not give anyone aid... It's called "looking out for number 1"... In a lawless area, no one will afford you the grace... Don't expect to get any... In my case, number one is my family... Even friends are on their own...

Now, that isn't to say I would not dive in and help the community in other ways... However if there is a definite long term situation, no one takes my supplies... I don't maintain a community stash...

You need to be able to differentiate situations, there is no "golden rule" in this... I don't have a procedure for this...'

You'll note that I posted them in their entirerity so that I can not be accused of taking them out of context. Thats the thing with 'net forums, what you type is recorded and very easy to refere back to.


Now, I have to go to work - luckily only an 8 hour detail, so I will be back later tonight... I hope you all simmer down a bit and actually ask objective questions if you wish to learn, or at least see the views of others... A little less malice and contempt, even if you want to be objective - be a little more neutral than skeptical.

IE - A little less "and or" type questions, you offer alternatives that makes the entire question a fallacy... "do you have MREs or low caloric content food?" Is any food but an MRE low in calories?

Heh once again I find it very funny that you show all of the traites you so readily accuse others of.
As to the type of question you would have us ask (lets not talk about freedom here) Then I guess you should not have asked us wether or not we thought survivalism was a valid concern or a needless worry, as it seems clear that you can not take the answer that the majority have given you.

I'm reasonably well prepared in the event of some natural or man made disaster.

I'm skilled/trained in survival and can live off the land on my own.

But -with a wife and three kids, I have taken reasonable steps to be prepared to either stay in our home and exist in safety and comfort for an extended period if communications and supplies are interrupted OR leave here for a safer location, if need be.

I wouldnt consider any of my preparations extraordinary or over the top.

If we had two feet of snow and ice and the power went out- Neither my wife or myself has to risk our lives or even our insurance deductable on our cars to go to the store.

plus- I have the ability to protect what I have.

Finally-I am prepared to assist others that maybe arent prepared.

You will never see me or my family trying to dig our way out of our attic.
You will never see me on a long line waiting to fill an empty milk jug with water from a National Guard tanker.
You will never see us standing on an overpass in the sun for two days waiting for a ride.

My reasonable preparations will give me the luxury of being able to decide what is best for my family and I in the event of some disaster or disruption of services without the pressures one faces when not prepared.

So- my home is stocked with our day to day needs.
And my vehicles are in good repair and never have less than 1/2 tank of gas.

And cash. Remember-credit/debit cards probably wont buy the things you need if power or phone service is down. merchants will understandably only be able to accept cash.

You know the laws better than I, however you can lie to the government... I promise... And it is about as immoral as hiding Jews from Hitler... IE... Not immoral at all...

Common household items yes, but sometimes intermediate weapons can't help you against a larger or armed intruder...

You don't think roving gangs are an issue if a disaster occured? As if somehow people are generally kinder in a country with a similar culture? Okay, I will only go so far as to convice you of something... I crossed that point, and I will only leave the above rhetorical question for you to ponder.

The only types of armed intruders I'd have to worry about here would be people like you, who decided to get armed.

I don't even have an NRA membership (although I should)...

Survivorman might be good for a few pointers if you really find yourself in the middle of nowhere... But what the hell are you doing in a desert anyway?

Yeesh... as if wilderness survival was the topic I started anyway...

Besides Les (whatever his name is) from survival man has made mistakes... He is still a fine survivalist, point being you don't have to be an expert to do wilderness survival... Food, Fire, Water, Shelter... The rest comes secondary...

In a desert you are going to wear wool - lots of wool. Cotton might work too, but wool is actually the best. Even better if it is white. Basically, the colour will shield away the sun somewhat and the thickness will keep your moisture to yourself, while keeping you insulated from the heat.

As for water - collect your urine and distill it, using the energy of the sun.

There, I just told you two ways in which you can vastly improve your survival rate in a desert. Now, tell me how you would survive in a tundra in the winter time?

You really are the lesser human (and I use the term human loosely, if only to include you) - I said you can't change my refusal to state my profession... Basically a totally open and free shot to flame me.... And you took the bait...

I won't even bother especially since you've decided to post twice to the same post please go ahead secret agent use your lights! be your own armorer! I no longer care for your personal safety

http://my.opera.com/newlifenarrabri/homes/blog/1Ostrich%20head%20in%20sand.jpg

ask objective questions if you wish to learn, or at least see the views of others... A little less malice and contempt, even if you want to be objective - be a little more neutral than skeptical.

so you want me instead of telling you where your going wrong to listen to babbling of collecting illegal weapons up and pointlessly stacking baked bean tins...

you sure you typed the right internet address in?
(https://www.blogger.com/start?hl=en?utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-emea-google&utm_medium=ha&utm_term=make%20a%20blog&gclid=COKmxcW2vo4CFQwwlAodA3d0zg)
IE - A little less "and or" type questions, you offer alternatives that makes the entire question a fallacy... "do you have MREs or low caloric content food?" Is any food but an MRE low in calories?

yes hence why they are designed to give twice as much as normal food which isn't designed for survival

either way you post some babel on an internet forum your not an expert not even close to one, now either listen to what people are saying or just leave and go play by yourself now

Well then I humbly suggest you re-read all of the words that have gone between you and I and see who has been accusatory.



That is of course true for every single one of us, but I am talking soley about the words that you have written. I'll not quote any more of them just yet, but look back to my last post to you and read your own words, how did you expect them to be taken?



ohhhh really? Then I offer up your own words, as set out in post 97.

'And no, I would not give anyone aid... It's called "looking out for number 1"... In a lawless area, no one will afford you the grace... Don't expect to get any... In my case, number one is my family... Even friends are on their own...

Now, that isn't to say I would not dive in and help the community in other ways... However if there is a definite long term situation, no one takes my supplies... I don't maintain a community stash...

You need to be able to differentiate situations, there is no "golden rule" in this... I don't have a procedure for this...'

You'll note that I posted them in their entirerity so that I can not be accused of taking them out of context. Thats the thing with 'net forums, what you type is recorded and very easy to refere back to.



Heh once again I find it very funny that you show all of the traites you so readily accuse others of.
As to the type of question you would have us ask (lets not talk about freedom here) Then I guess you should not have asked us wether or not we thought survivalism was a valid concern or a needless worry, as it seems clear that you can not take the answer that the majority have given you.

Again it depends on the situation as I have said, if in a total void of law - I will protect what is mine - and the type of "aid" was never defined, food? Is there relief in sight? Is it definetly far away? What in what I said was conflicting? I don't maintain a community stash... Period... I can give aid if the situation dictates... Period... Ultimately it is the situation that determines my actions... Period...

No, it is not the answer that bothers me - it is the hostility some have shown. Go ahead, dig - I haven't the time to do the same.

Okay, traditionally survivalists have been viewed as crazy hermits who hope for the downfall of civilization. While this could not be further from the truth.

With recent political/civil turmoil around the world, global warming and natural disasters, the energy crunch, are they really crazy?

Survivalists often strive to be self sufficient, or at least maintain the capacity to be so if disorder takes over.

This often involves having a source of energy, as a result those who installed biodiesel, solar, wind, methane digesters, etc - are benefiting... even profiting (for those areas that allow backfeeding the grid) from the recent energy crisis...

Do they really seem crazy now?

Even something as simple as stockpiling canned goods could mean the difference between life or death... Many people do this, others take it to the extreme...

While I don't have a "bugout" vehicle and a strategy to barter if there is a return to barbarism, I do possess enough food, ammunition, supplies, etc to survive an event larger than Katrina.

Why don't YOU do the same?

Being self sufficient in the event of a natural disaster, an energy crisis, or TEOTWAWKI doesn't seem crazy, at least to me. Also, being energy conscious (even to the point of living "off the grid", or backfeeding the power grid) sounds like good financial management.

Wishing/hoping for a complete breakdown of civil services (fire, police, etc), a natural disaster, or a Red Dawn scenario does seem crazy to me, though.

In a desert you are going to wear wool - lots of wool. Cotton might work too, but wool is actually the best. Even better if it is white. Basically, the colour will shield away the sun somewhat and the thickness will keep your moisture to yourself, while keeping you insulated from the heat.

As for water - collect your urine and distill it, using the energy of the sun.

There, I just told you two ways in which you can vastly improve your survival rate in a desert. Now, tell me how you would survive in a tundra in the winter time?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The only types of armed intruders I'd have to worry about here would be people like you, who decided to get armed.

Wool? Negative, it retains insulating properties even when wet. The idea is to allow sweat to evaporate, evaporation takes energy along with it. Ideally you want a large brimmed hat and thin, loose fitting clothes. If you are looking to insulate from the heat, wear cotton thermals and remain the the shade. Better yet, dig yourself a hole long enough to lay down in.

Distilling your urine is inefficient - Eventually you will run out as you cannot replace what you lose when you sweat. You are better off collecting condensate with a piece of plastic. You can still reclaim water from urine by doing your business near the hole. This is also a great method for purifying non-potable water.

Tundra during the winter? This like any situation, depends on the circumstances... Did I magically appear? I would not willfully go unprepared. In this case wool would be a proper choice, as I mentioned - it retains it's insulating properties when wet.

Chances are, I would only go with a firearm - even then hunting could be a struggle. I would stick to a source of water, the coastline being the best. I would then pick off birds, seals, etc. I would eat nearly everything on the animal, (except the liver of some polar species) to prevent rabbit starvation.

Also, I would not go willingly without notifying someone of expected return dates. Then I would not go far from my place of abandonment, make some sign for aerial craft that someone is in duress, make shelter and stay put. Conserve my calories. Hopefully I would have the good idea to bring a powerbar or some sort of high caloric meal (in this case, then a MRE is a good idea).

You have made this question to ambiguous, you didn't define the situation enough. If you want a certain answer, be specific please.

You are better off collecting condensate with a piece of plastic.

You're talking about a solar still, correct? Also, don't forget that cacti usually have a decent amount of water in them.

I won't even bother especially since you've decided to post twice to the same post please go ahead secret agent use your lights! be your own armorer! I no longer care for your personal safety

http://my.opera.com/newlifenarrabri/homes/blog/1Ostrich%20head%20in%20sand.jpg



so you want me instead of telling you where your going wrong to listen to babbling of collecting illegal weapons up and pointlessly stacking baked bean tins...

you sure you typed the right internet address in?
(https://www.blogger.com/start?hl=en?utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-emea-google&utm_medium=ha&utm_term=make%20a%20blog&gclid=COKmxcW2vo4CFQwwlAodA3d0zg)


yes hence why they are designed to give twice as much as normal food which isn't designed for survival

either way you post some babel on an internet forum your not an expert not even close to one, now either listen to what people are saying or just leave and go play by yourself now

You cared about my personal safety? Why do I think you are lying?

Do you really need to be some superhuman to be an armoUrer? I don't know why you find it hard to grasp the idea of a civilian knowing firearms... I've had more weapons malfunction in my profession, than my personal firearms. And I fire my personal weapons far more often.

Illegal weapons? What weapon is illegal? I can legally own a semiauto assault rifle, most civilians(US) can. In fact, I could legally own a fully automatic weapon. Why don't I? Whats the need? It's a waste of munitions...

Wow... thats a statement! Food isn't designed for survival! Read that again please, cuz thats what you said. Do I even need to give that a real response? I mean c'mon! That is rediculous!

Never claimed I was an expert, quote me... Please...

Don't advise I should listen to anyone, I could throw that one right back at you.

I really don't see why I should leave, I don't expect you to...

And you blog link didn't work...

And your punctuation is starting to suffer, possibly in your blithering rage? <---- see that? Ad Hominem! I can do it too!

Being self sufficient in the event of a natural disaster, an energy crisis, or TEOTWAWKI doesn't seem crazy, at least to me. Also, being energy conscious (even to the point of living "off the grid", or backfeeding the power grid) sounds like good financial management.

Wishing/hoping for a complete breakdown of civil services (fire, police, etc), a natural disaster, or a Red Dawn scenario does seem crazy to me, though.

I'm not sure where they got the whole "hoping for hell in a hand-basket" from.

Backfeeding is incredibly lucrative, especially as energy prices rise... I am really debating invesiting in a small beef cattle farm, not for the beef - but for the cow crap, put it in an anerobic digester and burn the methane in a generator. HUGE profits I hear...

You're talking about a solar still, correct? Also, don't forget that cacti usually have a decent amount of water in them.

Yes! a solar still - if you can find green vegitation, putting it under the still will improve it's performance.

Cacti, there seems to be some debate on whether that is true. I am cautious on this one, I would guess only some species are good for that. Hence the reason for some confusion.

I don't live near the desert anyway, I focus primarily on temperate forests - that is where I hunt. Always helps to know a bit about most climates though.

I'm not sure where they got the whole "hoping for hell in a hand-basket" from.

Backfeeding is incredibly lucrative, especially as energy prices rise... I am really debating invesiting in a small beef cattle farm, not for the beef - but for the cow crap, put it in an anerobic digester and burn the methane in a generator. HUGE profits I hear...

I've visited a few survival forums, and there are some survivalists that do wish for the shit to hit the fan.

As for power generation, I've seen some plans online for home built windmills. If I didn't live in an apartment, I'd be tempted to build one to see how effective it'd be.

I've visited a few survival forums, and there are some survivalists that do wish for the shit to hit the fan.

As for power generation, I've seen some plans online for home built windmills. If I didn't live in an apartment, I'd be tempted to build one to see how effective it'd be.

Oh yeah, for sure - there are some out there, apparently they've made the whole basket rotten... If you listen to some on this forum...

I do know you could use a car alternator with a voltage regulator. Then feed it either to a charge controller for some batts wired in parallel - or feed it to an inverter.

My only question is how will it behave at low rpm, I honestly am not sure.

oh god you was in the army and you don't understand weapon maintenance :eek:

Actually, I do. Most weapons rarely need armorer level maintenance.

playing about on a shooting range is a different level of wear and tear to actually using them in an extreme environment

I wasn't aware we were talking about using them in an "extreme environment". Unless we're talking about some bizarre survivalist wet dream about defending one's house from a ravenous horde of "gangsters" a weapon would rarely be used in an "extreme environment". Do take note that I think survivalism is silly, but if people want it as a hobby, so be it.

though I'm sure they always shoot the guys to there left and right

What on earth are you on about?

Oh yeah, for sure - there are some out there, apparently they've made the whole basket rotten... If you listen to some on this forum...

I do know you could use a car alternator with a voltage regulator. Then feed it either to a charge controller for some batts wired in parallel - or feed it to an inverter.

My only question is how will it behave at low rpm, I honestly am not sure.

The problem with a car alternator, from what I've been told, is a windmill won't regularly get up to the RPMs needed for the alternator to work at its most efficient.

The problem with a car alternator, from what I've been told, is a windmill won't regularly get up to the RPMs needed for the alternator to work at its most efficient.

Yeah, it's what I suspected. Possibly driving it with a gearbox might solve this, but you could end up with needing a massive prop to supply proper "muscle" to the unit.

I imagine a good design would require engineering skills, the proper combination of prop size and gearbox ratio. Might be best to copy someone else's design.

Solar is relatively easy, so long as you can work with voltage, amps, and watts. V * A = Watts

Good night ppl