NationStates Jolt Archive

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

My great grandfather worked in a coal mine, my grandfather worked in a fiberglass factory, my dad worked in construction before attending night school, then college, and then his MBA to become Vice President of his company's sales division, and I am in my second year of college on a full-tuition and honors scholarship working on my degree in finance.

The American dream hasn't died for us. My family has made huge progress from its poor roots in Pennsylvania, and we are continuing to do so today.

I don't think it has. I think it would be quite ignorant to say otherwise.

my grandmother couldnt read; my brother has a PhD. its not dead yet.

but the culture of victimization might be killing it. if i am taught that i am a victim being held down by the man, im not going to believe that i can succeed.

When Did the American Dream Die?

September 18, 1787.

I guess I see the young socialists and communists pointing this out the most frequently.

I was watching the "Made in America" show on the Travel Channel a couple days back. They were doing a story on a cabinet company that was started by an ex-GI. He sent all his money home ( in WWII, it was probably $15-$20 a month) and his fiancee saved it.

When the war ended, he started a small cabinet shop. He employed a couple of good ideas, like mass production and eventually Merillat kitchen cabinets became a huge business.

I like the smaller examples, though. Not everyone can be a huge success -- if that were so, then everyone would be. It's the steady improvements that people make in their lives that mean the most.

It died when the people who worked the hardest became stuck with the least of all.

And for all the people who are dedicated to working hard as you can so you can be successful, that's really a good thing, but it's just as good to fight for a change in the system.

My great grandfather passed in the 1918 flu pandemic, leaving my great grandmother poor and forced to put 2 of her three kids in orphanages. My grandfather was a longshoreman who only attained an eighth grade education (yet loved Macbeth). My parents were each the first in their families to get a college education, and I'm a teacher. They both talk about being in the Great Depression and sometimes not having money for more than creamed corn and toast with butter and sugar... and having shoes too small or with holes in the soles because they couldn't afford new ones.

We work and live comfortably... they own their own home, and travel the world, and so can I, so how is this not the American dream? Do people think the American dream means that it gets handed to you on a silver platter like Publisher's Clearinghouse sweepstakes promoters say they will? ;)

It died when the people who worked the hardest became stuck with the least of all.

Oooh... someone should sig that. ;)

It died when the people who worked the hardest became stuck with the least of all.

When did that happen?

When did hard work cease to be rewarded?

My great grandfather passed in the 1918 flu pandemic, leaving my great grandmother poor and forced to put 2 of her three kids in orphanages. My grandfather was a longshoreman. My parents were each the first in their families to get a college education, and I'm a teacher. They both talk about being in the Great Depression and sometimes not having money for more than creamed corn and toast with butter and sugar... and having shoes too small or with holes in the soles because they couldn't afford new ones.

We work and live comfortably... so how is this not the American dream? Do people think the American dream means that it gets handed to you on a silver platter like Publisher's Clearinghouse sweepstakes promoters say they will? ;)
My idea of the American Dream is that anyone willing to work hard will be rewarded with financial success.

Maybe not big successes, but certainly a better standard of living than they previously knew. If they can couple a great idea with hard work, then you're looking at the things great successes are made of.

It isn't dead. My grandfather was a 1st generation American raised in the shithole of Hammond, IN and grew up with a goat providing milk for the family. He joined the Navy in WWII and thanks to the GI Bill got a degree from Harvard and then an MBA from Stanford. He started and successfully ran two companies. The latter he sold for a crap load to KDA.

We work and live comfortably... so how is this not the American dream? Do people think the American dream means that it gets handed to you on a silver platter like Publisher's Clearinghouse sweepstakes promoters say they will? ;)

Maybe it died when people started shifting goalposts. :p

What does the American dream mean to you? I think that's more important to figure out than when it died.

The dream certainly still exists. It's just the dream really isn't all that great to begin with.

I don't think its dead. My grandfather was orphaned at 12 years old when he saw his father murder his mother, and he went on to serve in WWII and then open a successful aviation business.

When America woke up.

Maybe it died when people started shifting goalposts. :p

What does the American dream mean to you? I think that's more important to figure out than when it died.

Well, everyone in the US has the opportunity to get 12 years of free education. Do all of them make the most of it, or do some sit on their arses and wait for life to happen?

When I graduated college, (which was partly subsidized by a tiny stipend, and by being a city college), I couldn't immediately find a $50,000 a year job. So I took a $12,000 a year job, then interviewed elsewhere after a year and got a better job, and so on and so forth... until I became a teacher. Was each job a dream? No, but I did it to the best of my ability, got killer references, and moved up.

Anyone willing to work for what they want will eventually get it. Anyone who sits around bemoaning their fate and wallowing in self pity or apathy won't.

I am descended from Old World Nobility and as such money has never been a real problem for me, peasents.:D

Well, everyone in the US has the opportunity to get 12 years of free education. Do all of them make the most of it, or do some sit on their arses and wait for life to happen?

When I graduated college, (which was partly subsidized by a tiny stipend, and by being a city college), I couldn't immediately find a $50,000 a year job. So I took a $12,000 a year job, then interviewed elsewhere after a year and got a better job, and so on and so forth... until I became a teacher. Was each job a dream? No, but I did it to the best of my ability, got killer references, and moved up.

Anyone willing to work for what they want will eventually get it. Anyone who sits around bemoaning their fate and wallowing in self pity or apathy won't.I am all about apathy and I am going nowhere but up. :cool:

I don't think its dead yet, but it has contracted a cancer, which is curable, but people are not willing to pay for the remedy. We see how people get quick rich, and it makes us want the same thing. You have kids drop out of school to pursue careers in entertainment, instead of scholarly options. Combine that with the widening gap between the rich and the poor, and all that comes with it, then one can see how its dying. The cure is simple in discussion, but hard to implement. We need to focus the youth on school, hard work and patience, while at the same time, changing our class system to make it a bit easier on those at the bottom to make it to at least the middle. This means less expensive higher education, more community volunteer programs, more social organization and so on. If you look at when America was its greatest, it was led by a group of people that had lost everything, and sacrificed much to survive. Because of their hard work and commitment, they became known as the greatest generation. If we don't remedy this problem, then we can be looking at America's final generation.
I like that phrasing--- I'm going to steal it and use it somewhere else...

I don't think its dead yet, but it has contracted a cancer, which is curable, but people are not willing to pay for the remedy. We see how people get quick rich, and it makes us want the same thing. You have kids drop out of school to pursue careers in entertainment, instead of scholarly options. Combine that with the widening gap between the rich and the poor, and all that comes with it, then one can see how its dying. The cure is simple in discussion, but hard to implement. We need to focus the youth on school, hard work and patience, while at the same time, changing our class system to make it a bit easier on those at the bottom to make it to at least the middle. This means less expensive higher education, more community volunteer programs, more social organization and so on. If you look at when America was its greatest, it was led by a group of people that had lost everything, and sacrificed much to survive. Because of their hard work and commitment, they became known as the greatest generation. If we don't remedy this problem, then we can be looking at America's final generation.

The 70's.

You can't blame the Bee-Gees, John Travolta, and Disco for everything...

The 70's.

You can't blame the Bee-Gees, John Travolta, and Disco for everything...

I can, and I will.

You can't blame the Bee-Gees, John Travolta, and Disco for everything...

No, the Bee-Gees get no blame. Disco and John Travolta on the other hand...

If my family can go from poor farmers to wealthy business owners, I would say its alive and well. Its just people expect things to be handed to them now. That has to stop.

will waht do we conseter success? now for me these mese liveing with in my means and the douse not mean i have a car or any thing like that. i just want waht i have ok will and thing's to do my art. but besied that i dont want any thing more. even if i had millions of uds i woud give most of it a way. becouse the onley thing that money will buy me is a bigger cage.i woud bejust as happey liveing in mud hut.more over i'm also not a big belever in freedom and alll that stuff.

"It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it" --George Carlin

The American Dream has never really existed. Success in america has never been proportional to effort. There will always be a finite number of opportunities for advancement in the capitalist system, and there will always be more hardworking people than there are opportunities for advancement or else the whole system of wage slavery would collapse.

Really, this is a side issue. An "opportunity" for success does not make up for an inherantly authoritarian, elitist regime. In fact, it undermines any attempt at real social justice because it creates a mentality that fosters renunciation and self-repression, reinforcing the very real chains of bondage that we all wear yet few ever seem to notice.

The American Dream has never really existed. Success in america has never been proportional to effort.

Hm... So you're saying that all the people that went from dirt poor, to relatively well off had their success handed to them? That effort had nothing to do with it?

Hm... So you're saying that all the people that went from dirt poor, to relatively well off had their success handed to them? That effort had nothing to do with it?

And risk-free, too. Don't forget that.

Maybe it died when people started shifting goalposts. :p

What does the American dream mean to you? I think that's more important to figure out than when it died.

end the end we aer slave to the state. over worked over tax. and that is state slavery.

Hm... So you're saying that all the people that went from dirt poor, to relatively well off had their success handed to them? That effort had nothing to do with it?

Two people work equally hard. One gets rich. The other doesn't.

Certainly the first person's effort had something to do with it. But rewards remain disproportionate to effort.

Hm... So you're saying that all the people that went from dirt poor, to relatively well off had their success handed to them? That effort had nothing to do with it?

But what precisely did they expend effort doing?

end the end we aer slave to the state. over worked over tax. and that is state slavery.

You forgot :mp5::sniper::gundge:.

Two people work equally hard. One gets rich. The other doesn't.

Certainly the first person's effort had something to do with it. But rewards remain disproportionate to effort.

I never disputed that. What I have an issue with is saying that effort has nothing to do with success.

i froget what that my tax money go's to fhiet ther dam war. and i'm here paying for some thing that will couse more of it in the fucher.

Two people work equally hard. One gets rich. The other doesn't.

Certainly the first person's effort had something to do with it. But rewards remain disproportionate to effort.

I challenge you to find someone that works exactly as hard as another person going for the same reward.

Hm... So you're saying that all the people that went from dirt poor, to relatively well off had their success handed to them? That effort had nothing to do with it?

Effort is correlates the least with success. What is ultimately most determinate is random chance: the random distribution of genetic traits, favorable parents, favorable environments and favorable opportunities. I was born with an above average IQ, with supportive and nurturing parents, which are pluses. However, in other genetic talents I am sorely behind, and I was also born into a working class family with no connections to successful individuals, which are minuses. On top of that, you have to add in the simple random factor of being in the right place in the right time, or the opposite.

These factors I cannot change, it was the simple random chance that I, not someone else, grew up in this environment. Some people are literally handed success, while others must fight everday of their lives for just a little bit.

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

Well, we all need, apparently, to take a big stroll through our local civic center pointing out to everyone what our dreams are, and see just how seriously we're considered.

For example, i had this dream about Alyson Hannigan, Kari Byron, and pudding (yes, i was inspired by that "walk on water" episode of Mythbusters) that i don't have any problem telling other people about in lurid detail, although so far, the response has been along the lines of disgust to fits of uncontrollable laughter. My response has been, of course, "only in America!"


The dream died by the likes of Bush and his followers, his ilk. Long in the running.

It isn't nessecairily dead, but not everyone who tries will suceed, there are those who can try but will be left in the dust, those who don't have a chance and those who are rewarded without putting in much effort.
Both "sides" of the arguement need to see that there are those who can suceed and on one hand the "victimization complex" will lead some to accomplish less. Others, need to realise that not all those who try will be rewarded and they at least, need some help and respect.

Effort is correlates the least with success. What is ultimately most determinate is random chance: the random distribution of genetic traits, favorable parents, favorable environments and favorable opportunities. I was born with an above average IQ, with supportive and nurturing parents, which are pluses. However, in other genetic talents I am sorely behind, and I was also born into a working class family with no connections to successful individuals, which are minuses. On top of that, you have to add in the simple random factor of being in the right place in the right time, or the opposite.
I disagree with you. But if thats how you feel then nothing I say can change that.

When did that happen?

When did hard work cease to be rewarded?

It isn't rewarded universally, is it? You have to be lucky, too.

Working in a warehouse in Richmond was one of the most depressing things ever for me. My co-workers mostly lived in very poor neighborhoods, being very poor themselves.

Every day, though, there they were, busting their asses for 8 hours (sometimes more, thank god for overtime pay). Some of them were in their 60's, one was in his 70's and this was the highest he'd managed to get.

It is easy for the lucky few to say that hard work is rewarded. A bit more difficult for those who toil away for very little benefit.

I disagree with you. But if thats how you feel then nothing I say can change that.

Lurking is boring without arguments. Hmph.

For me, the American dream died when I realized that my father was the first person in his family to go college, and that all his work and hope had lead him to become a middle-aged, overweight alcoholic who hates his job but can see no way out of it. The grandfather on my mother's side came from a poor Irish family, became a salesman, traveled the world, and now he sits and rots away in retirement with a wife he can hardly stand.
In other words,
The dream certainly still exists. It's just the dream really isn't all that great to begin with.
What he said.

Lurking is boring without arguments. Hmph.

It appears I killed the thread.

It appears I killed the thread.

It's funny cause you posted this right when someone else posted. *nod*

Lurking is boring without arguments. Hmph.
Then don't lurk. Disagree, violently if neccessary. Throw in a few :headbang:, :mp5:, :sniper: and :gundge:, if you feel so inclined.
Oh, and don't forget :upyours:, this cheery little fellow.

For me, the American dream died when I realized that my father was the first person in his family to go college, and that all his work and hope had lead him to become a middle-aged, overweight alcoholic who hates his job but can see no way out of it. The grandfather on my mother's side came from a poor Irish family, became a salesman, traveled the world, and now he sits and rots away in retirement with a wife he can hardly stand.
In other words,

What he said.But isn't that what life is all about?

It's funny cause you posted this right when someone else posted. *nod*

It's even funnier, because it was my dream that someone would take me up on Kari Byron and Alyson Hannigan in a vat filled with pudding, doing various experiments! I ... oh.

Then don't lurk. Disagree, violently if neccessary. Throw in a few :headbang:, :mp5:, :sniper: and :gundge:, if you feel so inclined.
Oh, and don't forget :upyours:, this cheery little fellow.

Lurking requires WAY less effort. Also, I those smilies were more appropriate back before I had a thousand posts. Now I'll just look like a middle aged man hanging out with some high schoolers. Except a little less creepy.

It's even funnier, because it was my dream that someone would take me up on Kari Byron and Alyson Hannigan in a vat filled with pudding, doing various experiments! I ... oh.

Are you sure funny is the response that you're getting?

Throw in a few :headbang:, :mp5:, :sniper: and :gundge:, if you feel so inclined.
Oh, and don't forget :upyours:, this cheery little fellow.

And this one:
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb108.gif

Actually, German Nightmare is quite capable in provision, yes.

It appears I killed the thread.

Black Knight: 'Tis but a scratch!
King Arthur: A scratch? Your arm's off!
Black Knight: No, it isn't!
King Arthur: Well, what's that then?
Black Knight: I've had worse.
King Arthur: You liar!
Black Knight: Come on, you pansy!
...

But isn't that what life is all about?
Life is all about waiting until you die, and I'd rather not fill that time with the sort of pursuits the "American Dream" deems advisable.

Life is all about waiting until you die, and I'd rather not fill that time with the sort of pursuits the "American Dream" deems advisable.

The only problem with suicidal people is not having enough patience?

Life is all about waiting until you die, and I'd rather not fill that time with the sort of pursuits the "American Dream" deems advisable.

Thats a rather pessimistic attitude isn't it?

Americans shouldn't even get to call themselves 'patriots', they are far from being patriotic. From it's beginning America has been nothing but a debtor haven for unscrupulous capitalists. The 'American Dream' is more peddling of capitalist myths like the 'self-made man' and other anti-communitarian propaganda. When it comes down to it most Americans are greedy consumers who operate on utility, they have no regard for their fellow citizens apart from being possible competition or exploitation material. Americans can say they are 'patriotic', but patriotism to your greater community/nation state is sacrifice and loyalty because of a shared common life and an ethical regard for your countrymen. When it comes down to it, if the economy got really bad in the US most citizens would just leave for another country easier to exploit for profit, Americans have no regard but for themselves.

Sigworthy?

If it was just a statement, maybe. Not with the question mark.

The only problem with suicidal people is not having enough patience?

Sigworthy?

American dream is alive and well for the most part. I started with nothing and live very well now. Wife and I have done fairly well for ourselves through our hard work. I struggled for a bit trying to save money and build up a little wealth. It panned out and now I am reaping the rewards for years of hard work. Those that say it is gone do not want to work hard to achieve what their idea of a dream is. Anyone can make it in this country if they try.

The American dream will die when people finally realize success to no one. The very idea of success is a social construct and thus is impossible to achieve, therefore the entire idea is utterly impossible.



But working in less philosophical terms, it died when America stopped being worth living in, when people woke up from the dream that life in the US is wonderful and that the government is utterly infallible, and when the precious little success you have struggled to acquire all your life amounts to nothing in the end.

Thats a rather pessimistic attitude isn't it?Well life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead.

Well life is just one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4901667780208601777&q=Flanders+song&total=223&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Thats a rather pessimistic attitude isn't it?
And what would be an optimistic attitude?
"I'm going to live forever and eat ice cream everyday of my life, so suck on it, Grim Reaper!"

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

The dream began to die in the early 80s when jobs for working class began to pay less. That rippled into the middle class. Real wages for even the middle began to drop. More hours to buy the same thing. Of course, flooding the country with cheap labor aided the supply outstripping the demand for labor.

Not only did wages for the working middle drop, but so did government aid and support. One Example: When I went to college in 1970 a passbook savings account paid 5% and a student loan was 3%. As I send my children to college, the bank gets its money for 1% and gives out student loans for 8%. Thereby limiting the ability to get a college education for those at the bottom. The difference? The government thought that college educated people would earn more and thereby pay more in income tax. Giving those with intelligence a college education was a long term investment.

Then it became fashionable in MBA programs to concentrate on quarterly earnings. Make the numbers good for a quarter and you get promoted, make the future look good and you get bought out, and fired. Today, no one thinks beyond tomorrow. There is precious little long term investment in either business or government. It's "Live for Today and S---w the Future". Ask a business for a 5-10-25 year plan (common before the 80's). I doubt if they will remember what one was. Ask the government for anything more long range than the next election and they certainly won't have a clue.

Then it was realized that tickle down meant the rich get rich and the h--- with everyone else. It's hard for a kid who's parents are working poor to dream no matter how smart he is. The dream of education, and thereby success died in a wave of short term thinking.

And what would be an optimistic attitude?
"I'm going to live forever and eat ice cream everyday of my life, so suck on it, Grim Reaper!"

I was thinking of something like this:

"Getting my body cryogenically frozen was such a great idea. Now that ive been revived I can look back and laugh at that guy in the 21st century who said that life is just about waiting to die. Hah! Jokes on him!"

And what would be an optimistic attitude?
"I'm going to live forever and eat ice cream everyday of my life, so suck on it, Grim Reaper!"

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/139285/the_grim_reaper_family_guy/

The American dream will die only when Americans stop working for the fulfillment of their dream and demand the Goverment hand them their dreams fulfilled.

I was thinking of something like this:

"Getting my body cryogenically frozen was such a great idea. Now that ive been revived I can look back and laugh at that guy in the 21st century who said that life is just about waiting to die. Hah! Jokes on him!"
So you've chosen to wait a whole fucking long time until you die, good for you, but that doesn't alter the truth of what I said.

So you've chosen to wait a whole fucking long time until you die, good for you, but that doesn't alter the truth of what I said.

You wound me, sir. It was a poor attempt at sarcasm.

You wound me, sir. It was a poor attempt at sarcasm.

You should've included this part:
Boneitis? Pft! That's a funny name for a horrible disease.

The American dream will die only when Americans stop working for the fulfillment of their dream and demand the Goverment hand them their dreams fulfilled.
It is arrogance in the highest order that people can become wealthy and then claim they did it all themselves, and then claim they have no responsibility to the social community they exploited to make them wealthy.

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

The "American Dream" was already corrupt. It was always unrealistic for most, and self-serving, self-centred and self-congratulatory. It always promoted greed and isolationism.

It isn't dead, and that's why there are so many unhappy Americans.

Well, there is no "American Dream". That's the invention of an optimistic 50's attitude that missed the hollow uselessness of that dream.

Nevertheless, economic movement has decreased, and it now takes many more generations for a family to move into the middle class. That is a bad thing, and it is something we should seek to rectify, rather than make the rich richer yet.

It is arrogance in the highest order that people can become wealthy and then claim they did it all themselves, and then claim they have no responsibility to the social community they exploited to make them wealthy.

How is it arrogance when you take what was given to you, then work your ass off, and exceed the expectations? That's not arrogant at all.

How is it arrogance when you take what was given to you, then work your ass off, and exceed the expectations? That's not arrogant at all.

No I think it is arrogance when you take what you can and much more, then show contempt for those you used to get that wealth.
To quote a former adviser to John Howard on the public sector, 'Where once it was about serving, it's not about surviving'.

How is it arrogance when you take what was given to you, then work your ass off, and exceed the expectations? That's not arrogant at all.

It's arrogant because - even when someone suceeds - it is not done in isolation. You can get rich with your happymeal chain, sure... but only off the back of the people that buy your product, right?

It's arrogant because, for every individual that 'works their ass off' and gets the good seat at the table, there are hundreds that work their asses off and get screwed. Just working hard doesn't cut it.

It's arrogant because - for better or for worse - we are all products of our societies. If you 'win', you do so because your society helped it be possible. If you 'lose', you do so because your society helped make that possible, too.

It's fickle and unfair. Getting the dream is more about getting the breaks, and getting lucky, than about any amount of hard work. So - to pretend that you made it entirely off the back of your own efforts? Arrogance of an astounding magnitude.

No I think it is arrogance when you take what you can and much more, then show contempt for those you used to get that wealth.

Well, I agree with you there. That's selfish. We should seek to do our best, and rise above the expectations, and if we get there, we should try to help others get close to the same spot. Society can only progress when ALL of it is progressing.

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

I'm definitely cynical .. but it is not.. by a long shot impossible for ANYONE in America to make it big. It is not societies fault, the governments fault ... It's no ones fault. Everyone is not going to make it 'big' .. period. No matter race, sex, culture, family, environment etc. It is up to that individual. Whether they are born with this drive ... or knowledge etc.. I don't know. But no one can do anything for anyone else.. other than teach them to do for themselves or make them reliant on someone else.

Overall it's the individual who decides/createswhat route they will take. Yes there are always factors .. but these factors are not stone walls. If some one has it in them .. no matter what they came from .. (as is seen in many.. rags to riches).. they will.

Same with a 'silver spooner'. If they do not have that 'fire' they won't make it. No matter the amount of money they have.. if their idea doesn't have what it takes to flourish it isn't going to, period. Throw money at it all you want.. you might keep the idea afloat for a bit.. but it will sink. It has no substance. Just as a rich person trying to be musician with their money (happens all the time) .. because they got money they think they they can because they got the dough. Not gonna happen. It comes from within.

It's arrogant because - even when someone suceeds - it is not done in isolation. You can get rich with your happymeal chain, sure... but only off the back of the people that buy your product, right?

It's arrogant because, for every individual that 'works their ass off' and gets the good seat at the table, there are hundreds that work their asses off and get screwed. Just working hard doesn't cut it.

It's arrogant because - for better or for worse - we are all products of our societies. If you 'win', you do so because your society helped it be possible. If you 'lose', you do so because your society helped make that possible, too.

It's fickle and unfair. Getting the dream is more about getting the breaks, and getting lucky, than about any amount of hard work. So - to pretend that you made it entirely off the back of your own efforts? Arrogance of an astounding magnitude.

Exactly right, and for all the myths of the capitalist 'American dream', when it comes down to it capitalism is mass concentration of wealth in the hands of a few at the expense of the many, no matter how capitalists try to frame things like 'small business made men' and all the rest, it needs to be remembered that capitalism by it's very nature structurally impoverishes and creates abstract wealth, not real distributed wealth. Remember that for every man to become rich required many below him to be lower in wealth to support him. For every 10 dollars capitalism puts into society, it takes 20 out into private wealth.

(as is seen in many.. rags to riches).. .

You realise that every rags to riches story is balanced by a million rags to more rags stories?

You realise that every rags to riches story is balanced by a million rags to more rags stories?

Why did you crop my post while totally ignoring and purposely leaving out the point of my post.. ?

Why did you crop my post while totally ignoring and purposely leaving out the point of my post.. ?

I didn't. I replied to one part that obviously required it, whilst ignoring the rest of it because I think my own earlier post already dealt with it.

You say "If some one has it in them .. no matter what they came from .. (as is seen in many.. rags to riches).. they will."

I say - that's wishful thinking - and I pointed out that the 'rags-to-riches thing is fairytale, not reality.

It's arrogant because - even when someone suceeds - it is not done in isolation. You can get rich with your happymeal chain, sure... but only off the back of the people that buy your product, right?

It's arrogant because, for every individual that 'works their ass off' and gets the good seat at the table, there are hundreds that work their asses off and get screwed. Just working hard doesn't cut it.

It's arrogant because - for better or for worse - we are all products of our societies. If you 'win', you do so because your society helped it be possible. If you 'lose', you do so because your society helped make that possible, too.

It's fickle and unfair. Getting the dream is more about getting the breaks, and getting lucky, than about any amount of hard work. So - to pretend that you made it entirely off the back of your own efforts? Arrogance of an astounding magnitude.

A lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time.

Thousands upon thousands of people are born poor, work their asses off for a long time, and then still end up dying poor.

I can't stand this myth that the poor are poor because they're all somehow lazy.

It is arrogance in the highest order that people can become wealthy and then claim they did it all themselves, and then claim they have no responsibility to the social community they exploited to make them wealthy. True, but while some stories fit this, there are those that are personal triumphs of hard work and perseverance.

You realise that every rags to riches story is balanced by a million rags to more rags stories? I thought they are balanced by the Riches to Rags stories.

I didn't. I replied to one part that obviously required it, whilst ignoring the rest of it because I think my own earlier post already dealt with it.

You say "If some one has it in them .. no matter what they came from .. (as is seen in many.. rags to riches).. they will."

I say - that's wishful thinking - and I pointed out that the 'rags-to-riches thing is fairytale, not reality.

Ok.. for one.. I only read the OP. I replied with my first and truthful feeling .. thought.

We can agree to disagree. But I never said that ANYONE who just thinks one day 'Hey! I want to be rich!' and wants to make a shit load of money is going to do so (that would be the majority of the population). I actually said the opposite. It is few and far between, but anyone who does, always has that 'fire' and obstacles aren't a match.

But ... I do believe .. You can do almost ANYTHING if you put your mind to it.

So maybe to you .. I am a wishful thinker.

True, but while some stories fit this, there are those that are personal triumphs of hard work and perseverance.

You obviously live in a fantasy land then, where capitalism makes everyone rich and we all swim in lakes of chocolate. In reality those who work hard and persevere usually get screwed by a corporate race to the bottom, it is the majority who pay the price so a few people can have 10 BMW's and a mansion.

You obviously live in a fantasy land then, where capitalism makes everyone rich and we all swim in lakes of chocolate. In reality those who work hard and persevere usually get screwed by a corporate race to the bottom, it is the majority who pay the price so a few people can have 10 BMW's and a mansion.

How did you get "some stories are also personal Triumphs" to turn into "Capitalism makes everyone rich?"

Now if I can show you ONE story of a person working hard to succeed in America, would you stop the overdramatization of a Gross Over-Generalized viewpoint?

You obviously live in a fantasy land then, where capitalism makes everyone rich and we all swim in lakes of chocolate. In reality those who work hard and persevere usually get screwed by a corporate race to the bottom, it is the majority who pay the price so a few people can have 10 BMW's and a mansion.


Argh ..Capitalism makes NO ONE rich. It's either freakin doing it on your own or inheritance. Let some dumbass inherit mega bucks and watch them piss it away. Wal Mart as we know it now.. Mega corp.. let them familial members pass on the company.. corp .. whatever, to a bunch of fucking dumbasses and they will be broke in 10 years. Many .. many ways this can happen .. but it would happen ..one way or the other.

A lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time.

Thousands upon thousands of people are born poor, work their asses off for a long time, and then still end up dying poor.

I can't stand this myth that the poor are poor because they're all somehow lazy.


Yes the right place at the right time.. but the biggie >>> Who you know. But IMO .. no matter how it happens.. it happens. Might be 'helpers' along the way.. but no matter what falls on anyones lap.. if they do not have it in their mind.. It will never happen.

AMERICA: LAND OF OPPORTUNITY*
*results will vary for each individual

The "American Dream" has gone from owning your own land and being able to support your family instead of being a landless serf to some lord to a concept of "always needing a little bit more."

The "Dream" has turned into a nightmare of always wanting more than we have and never having enough. No matter what we have nor how rich, fat, and lazy we get, it never satisfies us, because our only desire is the acquisition of more. Unfortunately, as soon as we get "more," it becomes "already have," and we realize that "more" is out there somewhere, driving the vicious cycle ever forward.

The "American Dream" has gone from owning your own land and being able to support your family instead of being a landless serf to some lord to a concept of "always needing a little bit more."

The "Dream" has turned into a nightmare of always wanting more than we have and never having enough. No matter what we have nor how rich, fat, and lazy we get, it never satisfies us, because our only desire is the acquisition of more. Unfortunately, as soon as we get "more," it becomes "already have," and we realize that "more" is out there somewhere, driving the vicious cycle ever forward.


I can honestly say I am not that way, at the present. I have never tried to 'keep up with the jones' .. I don't want to be like the jones'. BUT... when you are not that way.. majority of people think you are weird. Those (especially the mothers) who have kids all 'compete' with the other moms of who's the best parent with the best kid, with the best house in the best neighborhood etc etc. I don't think I'd ever mesh with them women. For most of the husbands it looks like they are just going day to day trying to survive it.. but some of them get into that same thing .. but in different ways of course.

I'm glad I don't generally care what other people think.

AMERICA: LAND OF OPPORTUNITY*
*results will vary for each individual

Very cool! One of the few posts I've actually considered sigging lol.

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

Right, that only happens in America, then?
It seems to happen a lot more here in Europe these days. I think the American Dream is just a nice bit of marketing, claiming something that can and does happen absolutely everywhere as "typically American".

Right, that only happens in America, then?
It seems to happen a lot more here in Europe these days. I think the American Dream is just a nice bit of marketing, claiming something that can and does happen absolutely everywhere as "typically American".

Calling it the "American Dream" isn't claiming it doesn't happen elsewhere, just that the original version ( independance financial and otherwise) was sought after in America.

During (what in my opinion) was the "glory days" of the US of A that was the goal, the "dream" of the common American, independance. When other cultures favored other goals, Americans favored independance.

That seems to have fallen by the way side and now everybody here clammors for the government to fix everything for them, in the day they just wanted the ability to fix things themselves.

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

I'll admit that because I'm not from the US I might have an inaccurate view of what the "American Dream" is meant to be. Though it seems to me to largely mean that the US is a meritocracy, ie it is possible to get anywhere politically, socially or economically, through blood, sweat and tears.

Using my definition though, it can't ever have been said to exist at all, not in any meaningful way. For starters women and blacks were marginalised right from the creation of the republic all the way to the 60s (to be generous.

Even these days it cannot be said to exist. Economic inequality is growing. Which might not be a problem if there was high social mobility, but there isn't. According to a recent report from the Sutton Trust, social mobility in the US (and Britain) is far below countries such as Sweden, Canada et al.

Even The Economist, hardly a radical socialist rag, decribed US society as "more dynastic than dynamic."

Right, that only happens in America, then?
It seems to happen a lot more here in Europe these days. I think the American Dream is just a nice bit of marketing, claiming something that can and does happen absolutely everywhere as "typically American".

Funnily enough, it is apparently a "dream" in the US, but a "reality" over here* in Europe :p




(*well, not here here, Britain, where it is just as bad ;))

AMERICA: LAND OF OPPORTUNITY*
*results will vary for each individual

:D


Reminds me of the line RRP had in his sig (something like):

"America: Home of the brave, land of the free; unless your gay, black, femail or cherokee"

Funnily enough, it is apparently a "dream" in the US, but a "reality" over here* in Europe :p




(*well, not here here, Britain, where it is just as bad ;))

Seems to be working in Ireland at the moment. Although, to be fair, "Celtic tiger" sounds just as stupid as "American dream" to me.

What exactly is the 'American Dream' anyway?

"When did the American Dream Pie?"

my glasses were broken, sorry...

What exactly is the 'American Dream' anyway?

I second this question. It seems as much utopian wishful thinking as communism, and at least communism is better defined.

The American Dream is more like a lottery, you may get rich, but chances are you'll just get thrown to the heap with everyone else.

The American Dream is more like a lottery, you may get rich, but chances are you'll just get thrown to the heap with everyone else.But you're still better off than 95% of the people in any communist country that has ever existed.

What exactly is the 'American Dream' anyway?

I think it involves cheerleaders and apple pie.

But you're still better off than 95% of the people in any communist country that has ever existed.

Two wrongs do not make a right and no, being dirtpoor is still being dirtpoor.

Anyone willing to work for what they want will eventually get it.

Sounds like a dream to me, and IMHO a false one. The above depends highly on what one wants. It's simply impossible for everyone to win the Olympics. Some succeeding means others will fail, such is the nature of competition. And not all competition is fair either.

Looking back at what one has and stating one is happy with it and that it was ones dream is a form of rationalization. Can you honestly say that as a kid your dream was to work your way up to eventually become a teacher?

Anyone who sits around bemoaning their fate and wallowing in self pity or apathy won't.

Close, but IMHO not true as a generalization either. Some people have stuff handed to them on a platter. It's a matter of having the right connections, and knowing the right people. One major example of this would be George W. Bush, who (again, my opinion) failed at everything in life yet became President of the USA. Throughout his career he got handed lucrative jobs by his family and connections (and failed at them miserably), and just got by floating on his family name.

More dangerous however is if your statement is to be turned around. I'm glad you didn't, but I have experienced others to do that. They presume that anyone not becoming a millionaire only has him/herself to blame. After all, if only they had spent more time and effort they surely would've succeeded... I see this as a reasoning which serves only to kick down the less fortunate regardless of whether or not they're actually to blame for their misfortune. In that sense the 'American dream' can be rather destructive.

I'm reminded of the people who worked at Enron, and who got deceived into putting their life savings into company stocks, while management knew very well the employees who did that would end up ruined. Management themselves got away much better financially.

Ballotonia

no wonder y'all are so cynical

the american dream isnt that anyone can become RICH.

the american dream is that if you work hard you will do better than your parents. until your family is so prosperous that just doing as well as your parents is pretty damned good.

We know that America isn't a meritocracy. It's nice to think it might be and it's nice to think that everyone who is worse off than you doesn't work as hard as you do (after all, you work so damn hard). Unfortunately, it's just not true and the belief that it is undermines the potential sensible politcal discourse.

You realise that every rags to riches story is balanced by a million rags to more rags stories?

That deserves sigging!

it hasn't died

it doesn't just appear out of no where and make you a superstar. you do actually have to work to achieve the goal. it is very achievable if you work and dedicate yourself to achieving it.

some people just think of it as the same as little league trophies where everyone who participates no matter how hard they try will still get it.

For me, the American dream is linked very closely to immigration. The dream dies as we continue to persist in closing off our borders and making it increasingly difficult for others to seek the same "prosperity" as did the ancestors of those who now want to deny others that opportunity. People nowadays, of course, are afraid of immigration largely because of the influx of non-white newcomers, and this threatens to diminish down the line, or even replace, the white majority that currently exists.

Well, the fact is, Ireland doesn't have a "dream" because we're actually awake, so I guess I'm not the best to comment, but I'd wager it's still alive because the USA exports its poverty to countries like China who'll be dirt poor for much less than we Westerners will.

It died when the people who worked the hardest became stuck with the least of all.

About 4,000 BC, then?

Ok.. for one.. I only read the OP. I replied with my first and truthful feeling .. thought.

We can agree to disagree. But I never said that ANYONE who just thinks one day 'Hey! I want to be rich!' and wants to make a shit load of money is going to do so (that would be the majority of the population). I actually said the opposite. It is few and far between, but anyone who does, always has that 'fire' and obstacles aren't a match.

But ... I do believe .. You can do almost ANYTHING if you put your mind to it.

So maybe to you .. I am a wishful thinker.

Wishful thinking is not bad. I think you are unrealistic.

But then - I have a 'code' that won't let me do a lot of the things that would make it easier to be a success. I can't fuck my friends over for advantage. I won't sell shit to people who don't need it just to get a few dollars. I won't do anything I consider dishonest. I won't do anything I consider illegal. I am not dog-eat-dog... I will not gain my advantage by making others suffer.

Maybe there is a fire that makes some people successful over the odds. If there is, it is 'being an asshole'. I hardly think it a virtue... and, if that is the best western culture has to offer, I think we fail at reality.

I thought they are balanced by the Riches to Rags stories.

No - because that would imply that every instance of rags-to-riches was based on an equivalent riches-to-rags scenario.

In reality, it is probably pretty rare for one person to get wealthy at the direct loss of one other person. Instead, small percentages get variously wealthy at the expense of the status-quo being balanced by an overall poverty.

That deserves sigging!

Thanks. In near on 19,000 posts, I'd hope I do occassionaly say something worth saying again. :D

I think it involves cheerleaders and apple pie.
And ousting communists for undermining these United States' morale.

Two wrongs do not make a right and no, being dirtpoor is still being dirtpoor.

Too bad the majority of americans are not dirt poor.

Too bad the majority of americans are not dirt poor.

Not sure if 'majority' matters, here. Not sure how true this is.

Not sure I'd describe it as 'too bad'.

It's a combination of luck and hard work. Both my parents came from somewhat lower-class backgrounds - not necessarily poor, but not very well off. My dad was only able to attend college because my grandmother worked at Penn State. Both my parents had a little luck - they entered the IT industry during its nascent years. They were also lucky in that they were good at it. And they took advantage of an opportunity to get good-paying jobs at Microsoft - even though it meant moving across the country.

Now, my family is very well off. We have a nice house that, after the remodeling we've done, is probably worth over $1 million. Another result of their hard work is that my parents have been able to put both myself and my brother through private school from preschool to high school - and at least for me, to college.

Are we an example of the American Dream? I think so. We're far better off than the majority of people. You could say that all my parents started off with was a few diplomas. And they turned that into a very good life. Hard work and luck are important, but so are skills.

But you're still better off than 95% of the people in any communist country that has ever existed.

95%? Try 99.8%...only 0.2% of the people in the Soviet Union were legitimately wealthy and had earned their fortune legally. I guess you could say the USSR did have equality...equality in grinding, hopeless poverty.

It died when Elvis died my friend.

Too many "that deserves sigging"...

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

I know plenty of very successful people that came form poor/impoverished backgrounds. I also know a lot of spoiled rich kids who dropped out and basically have no life anymore so I guess it works both ways.

I keep seeing posts that claim it is impossible for a poor kid to achieve success in America. I disagree because I see it happen regularly. Not billionaire success, but certainly out-of-poverty success.

Anyway, for all you cynics that just know there can never be another Horatio Alger rags-to-riches story, tell me when the Dream died and what killed it.

Here's another chance for me to refer to a New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_03.html) graphic. Under the tab "Income Mobility", it shows the statistics of people moving from class to class. It's less than it was earlier, but still, it is more likely you will move up than move down, or stay the same.

EDIT: That's not entirely true. The top fifth and bottom fifth usually stay where they are. The rest is mostly positive, though.

The dream began to die in the early 80s when jobs for working class began to pay less. That rippled into the middle class. Real wages for even the middle began to drop. More hours to buy the same thing. Of course, flooding the country with cheap labor aided the supply outstripping the demand for labor.

Not only did wages for the working middle drop, but so did government aid and support. One Example: When I went to college in 1970 a passbook savings account paid 5% and a student loan was 3%. As I send my children to college, the bank gets its money for 1% and gives out student loans for 8%. Thereby limiting the ability to get a college education for those at the bottom. The difference? The government thought that college educated people would earn more and thereby pay more in income tax. Giving those with intelligence a college education was a long term investment.

Then it became fashionable in MBA programs to concentrate on quarterly earnings. Make the numbers good for a quarter and you get promoted, make the future look good and you get bought out, and fired. Today, no one thinks beyond tomorrow. There is precious little long term investment in either business or government. It's "Live for Today and S---w the Future". Ask a business for a 5-10-25 year plan (common before the 80's). I doubt if they will remember what one was. Ask the government for anything more long range than the next election and they certainly won't have a clue.

Then it was realized that tickle down meant the rich get rich and the h--- with everyone else. It's hard for a kid who's parents are working poor to dream no matter how smart he is. The dream of education, and thereby success died in a wave of short term thinking.

It's a short-term mentality that's infected the country as a whole. That's also part of the reason that we lost out a potential electronics appliance industry to Japan (with VCRs and such) and why we're outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas for pittance wages.

But you're still better off than 95% of the people in any communist country that has ever existed.

This is a discussion of the American Dream, no? So please don't change the subject to avoid the point.

This is a discussion of the American Dream, no? So please don't change the subject to avoid the point.

This may be a good time to ask: what is the American Dream?

This may be a good time to ask: what is the American Dream?

You know... that no matter how poor you are, you can become well off by simply working hard. A nice thought if inaccurate. Plenty of people work their ass off and don't experience this dream.

You know... that no matter how poor you are, you can become well off by simply working hard. A nice thought if inaccurate. Plenty of people work their ass off and don’t experience this dream.
As Papa Mousekewitz said:

“There are no cats in America, and the streets are paved with cheese.”

You know... that no matter how poor you are, you can become well off by simply working hard. A nice thought if inaccurate. Plenty of people work their ass off and don't experience this dream.

You are right working your ass off in a minimum wage job will not get you far. You have to have a good work ethic combined with good decision making abilities.

You are right working your ass off in a minimum wage job will not get you far. You have to have a good work ethic combined with good decision making abilities.

Neither which will do shit for you, if you never get an even break, right?

You are right working your ass off in a minimum wage job will not get you far. You have to have a good work ethic combined with good decision making abilities.

And of course having the right circumstances to better yourself. Not everyone can be so fortunate.

As Papa Mousekewitz said:

“There are no cats in America, and the streets are paved with cheese.”

Fievel! Holy shit! I can't believe anyone else remembers that movie.

Fievel! Holy shit! I can't believe anyone else remembers that movie.

Are you suggesting An American Tail was somehow an allegory?

[quote=Trading Places]Louis Winthorpe III: [after ruining the Dukes] Happy New Year!
Randolph Duke: [hoarsely] Winthorpe.
Mortimer Duke: [stunned] Valentine.
Billy Ray Valentine: Hey! How'd y'all make out today?
Mortimer Duke: How could you do this to us after everything we've done for you?
Billy Ray Valentine: Oh, see, I made Louis a bet here. See, Louis bet me that we couldn't both get rich and put y'all in the poor house at the same time. He didn't think we could do it. I won.
Louis Winthorpe III: [grinning] I lost... One dollar.
Billy Ray Valentine: Thank you, Louis.
Louis Winthorpe III: After you.
Billy Ray Valentine: Certainly.
...
Mortimer - we're back!

Are you suggesting An American Tail was somehow an allegory?

No. That was a literal translation.
Don't risk further straying infidel.

Here's how it looks to me.

The personal stories about incremental success abound. That pretty much puts an end to any doubts (not that I ever had any) about a little work plus a little ambition creating success.

There's one answer that actually seems to think about the question and provide an explanation about _when_ hard work ceased to pay off -- Their time period was the '80s, but that was really a good decade after the lousy '70s.

Then there were the others...They can be identified by their dogmatic belief that no amount of hard work will pay off unless you're already rich. Further, they seem to believe that
-- There is a limited supply of riches
-- You have to win a lottery to get them.

I'm sure that kind of thinking is appealing to anyone that doesn't want to work and doesn't want to accept the responsibility of making their own success. Personally, I don't know anyone that had success fall into their lap. And I certainly understand that there is no limit on wealth.

Now for my anecdote...
I was raised on a farm in Ohio. We always had enough, but there wasn't much left over for any luxuries. But I was a good student and Ohio State had to accept me, so I started attending one of the branches. Eventually, I graduated, joined the Marines, left the Marines and went to Grad school. Sme time after finishing up at Georgia Tech, I had a great idea. It turned into a little company and that turned into a big company. Eventually, it was bought by a giant company and I went back to work for a little company. Now we're a bigger company. I may start another company before I retire for good.

What's the score? A career in the Marines, a company founded, a couple patents owned, and a nice job with a growing company. All at the cost of some good decisions and a lot of work.

Pretty damn good for a farm boy from Ohio.

Don't try to tell me that people can't create their own success and expect me to believe it.

There's opportunity out there for everyone. It isn't the same opportunity, but it's there just the same. And it doesn't all involve college, just education.

It hasn't died; like all lotteries the odds of winning vary depending on different factors.

Well, everyone in the US has the opportunity to get 12 years of free education. Do all of them make the most of it, or do some sit on their arses and wait for life to happen?Are all 12 years of this education actually conducive to the learning process?

Are all 12 years of this education actually conducive to the learning process?

If they want to learn, most likely.

I won't deny that not everyone can achieve success. Some people are just plain unlucky. They screw up, and in doing so lose their chances of achieving success. Having skills is also important. And knowing how to use those skills is vital.

Myrmidonisia, your success was based off an idea you had. My parents' success was based off the skills they acquired in college. I can say that skills and good ideas are very conducive to success.

I won't deny that not everyone can achieve success. Some people are just plain unlucky. They screw up, and in doing so lose their chances of achieving success. Having skills is also important. And knowing how to use those skills is vital.

Myrmidonisia, your success was based off an idea you had. My parents' success was based off the skills they acquired in college. I can say that skills and good ideas are very conducive to success.

Skills can be a bit of luck as well. Oh, sure, there's practice and perfection and approximation, but to some degree...

I won't deny that not everyone can achieve success. Some people are just plain unlucky. They screw up, and in doing so lose their chances of achieving success. Having skills is also important. And knowing how to use those skills is vital.

Myrmidonisia, your success was based off an idea you had. My parents' success was based off the skills they acquired in college. I can say that skills and good ideas are very conducive to success.
There is an entry fee to be paid for success and it's not luck. But it isn't hard work alone, either. I've worked with plenty of folks that were satisfied just where they were -- an hourly wage and very little responsibility.

The one field where I can categorically admit that luck plays an important part is farming. Planning can help mitigate bad stretches, but no one can stop the weather from causing its damage. But most other people make their own luck -- good or bad -- based on how they make decisions.

It hasn't died; like all lotteries the odds of winning vary depending on different factors.

Are all 12 years of this education actually conducive to the learning process?
It's all about how one applies themselves to it. Do any American schools fail to offer AP classes or some sort of early entry to local colleges? If anything the opportunities are probably greater than when I was in public schools.

Right, that only happens in America, then?
It seems to happen a lot more here in Europe these days. I think the American Dream is just a nice bit of marketing, claiming something that can and does happen absolutely everywhere as "typically American".
Don't get me wrong. I'm in love with the "Irish Miracle", too. I don't see any of the young communists complaining about the lack of opportunity in Europe, so I figure the USA must be unique in that regard --

Of course, I don't believe that, but that's the point. If it were true, I'd be on the boat to Ireland.

There is an entry fee to be paid for success and it's not luck. But it isn't hard work alone, either. I've worked with plenty of folks that were satisfied just where they were -- an hourly wage and very little responsibility.

The one field where I can categorically admit that luck plays an important part is farming. Planning can help mitigate bad stretches, but no one can stop the weather from causing its damage. But most other people make their own luck -- good or bad -- based on how they make decisions.

Of course you believe that - you got lucky. Of course you want to claim the glory for it.

The American Dream died the moment that the 16th Amendment was claimed to be ratified (it actually wasn't ratified, nor was the 14th, as anybody knowledgeable about American History is aware of) and the unconstitutional Federal Reserve Act was passed.

Within 40 years, the true Middle Class, that of the small businessman, was decimated and just about destroyed and the upper Lower Class was declared the new Middle Class. The savings rate plummeted due to the IRS's theft (even if you deem the IRS constitutional, it is still a criminal gang that steals money, because taxation is extortion/theft done by a government) and the Fed's inflation. After the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression (even Bernanke has admitted this fact, contrary to the leftist propaganda that New Deal originator Herbert Hoover believed in laissez-faire and caused the Depression which is taught in the government schools), FDR came along and escalated Hoover's policies, making the Depression even worse. Then he started World War II and things got even worse in America. After World War II, the people who are called "Isolationists" in the history books (ie. the first Libertarians and Paleo-Cons, and the other ideological ancestors of the current Ron Paul movement) took over Congress and ended the Depression by repealing some of the New Deal (though the defeat of Robert Taft at the 52 Republican Convention and his death shortly thereafter, prevented them from achieving their goal to end Social Security, as most elderly people at the time desired and shortly thereafter, the first Neo-Cons, led by the National Review, hijacked the right).

After over a century of socialist presidents (whether they are left-liberal, "progressive," or Neo-Con, they are socialist), America's economy is on the verge on collapse. The Fed is about to cause another Depression. The savings rate is near-zero. America will soon face an underpopulation catastrophe as a result of widespread abortion and of social security and other welfare programs, while the people whom we've been terrorizing for 60 years (the Muslims) are growing their population rapidly and probably are looking forward to getting revenge on us in the coming decades.

The IRS and Fed and the socialist policies which they make possible are going to destroy the United States unless those policies are reversed. We need to repeal the IRS and Fed and replace them with nothing (let the market handle money and let the government get its income by selling land) and we should also phase out the welfare programs which people are dependent upon (such as social security), while immediately dumping programs which people are not dependent upon (corporate welfare, including government-subsidized sports stadiums). We must also bring all troops home immediately because a policy of perpetual war is incompatible with a free society, as is a policy of economic war (commonly referred to as socialism). We need to restore laissez-faire if we wish to make America great again (or we could opt for Anarcho-Capitalism, which would be even more desirable than laissez-faire).

You might have made some really good points. I was reading with interest, and then I got to the point where you started of on that old 'taxation is theft' propaganda, and I lost interest.

I realise I may have missed something brilliant in the second half... but that's a risk I had to take.

It's no big loss, no worries.

The American Dream died the moment that the 16th Amendment was claimed to be ratified (it actually wasn't ratified, nor was the 14th, as anybody knowledgeable about American History is aware of) and the unconstitutional Federal Reserve Act was passed.

Within 40 years, the true Middle Class, that of the small businessman, was decimated and just about destroyed and the upper Lower Class was declared the new Middle Class. The savings rate plummeted due to the IRS's theft (even if you deem the IRS constitutional, it is still a criminal gang that steals money, because taxation is extortion/theft...

You might have made some really good points. I was reading with interest, and then I got to the point where you started of on that old 'taxation is theft' propaganda, and I lost interest.

I realise I may have missed something brilliant in the second half... but that's a risk I had to take.

The New American Dream is to be out of debt. Wife, two cars, house and 2.4 kids are optional.

That's why it's called the American Dream -- you have to be asleep to believe it.

*snips completely ahistorical nonsense that is rendered correct solely by ideological fiat*


Read, Dummy! (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=538013)

Read, please! (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=538013)

Fixed. Please don't flame.

I don't think the dream has died for many Americans. I think that most Americans are now too lazy to pursue their dreams or maybe yet they are too ignorant to have dreams at all. I came from a family of five children, all raised by our single mom. One of my brothers has a degree in music and I have a degree in nursing. Another brother is a general manager of a restaurant and my sister is a homemaker but very well off. The other sibling unfortunately was killed in a car accident, but I too think he would have made something of himself if he were alive. My mother taught us to work hard for what we want in life and it proved to work for all of her children.

I think most parents today do not teach their children the meaning of hard work and perseverance. If the dream has died for some Americans, it is because they are weak persons. Survival of the fittest!

In some regions of the country economic opportunities are a bit tougher to find than in others. I think there is a bit of disillsuionment in those regions but otherwise I think that the American Dream is alive and well. We still have plenty of mobility. Oh yeah!

The American Dream died the moment that the 16th Amendment was claimed to be ratified (it actually wasn't ratified, nor was the 14th, as anybody knowledgeable about American History is aware of) and the unconstitutional Federal Reserve Act was passed.

Within 40 years, the true Middle Class, that of the small businessman, was decimated and just about destroyed and the upper Lower Class was declared the new Middle Class. The savings rate plummeted due to the IRS's theft (even if you deem the IRS constitutional, it is still a criminal gang that steals money, because taxation is extortion/theft done by a government) and the Fed's inflation. After the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression (even Bernanke has admitted this fact, contrary to the leftist propaganda that New Deal originator Herbert Hoover believed in laissez-faire and caused the Depression which is taught in the government schools), FDR came along and escalated Hoover's policies, making the Depression even worse. Then he started World War II and things got even worse in America. After World War II, the people who are called "Isolationists" in the history books (ie. the first Libertarians and Paleo-Cons, and the other ideological ancestors of the current Ron Paul movement) took over Congress and ended the Depression by repealing some of the New Deal (though the defeat of Robert Taft at the 52 Republican Convention and his death shortly thereafter, prevented them from achieving their goal to end Social Security, as most elderly people at the time desired and shortly thereafter, the first Neo-Cons, led by the National Review, hijacked the right).

After over a century of socialist presidents (whether they are left-liberal, "progressive," or Neo-Con, they are socialist), America's economy is on the verge on collapse. The Fed is about to cause another Depression. The savings rate is near-zero. America will soon face an underpopulation catastrophe as a result of widespread abortion and of social security and other welfare programs, while the people whom we've been terrorizing for 60 years (the Muslims) are growing their population rapidly and probably are looking forward to getting revenge on us in the coming decades.

The IRS and Fed and the socialist policies which they make possible are going to destroy the United States unless those policies are reversed. We need to repeal the IRS and Fed and replace them with nothing (let the market handle money and let the government get its income by selling land) and we should also phase out the welfare programs which people are dependent upon (such as social security), while immediately dumping programs which people are not dependent upon (corporate welfare, including government-subsidized sports stadiums). We must also bring all troops home immediately because a policy of perpetual war is incompatible with a free society, as is a policy of economic war (commonly referred to as socialism). We need to restore laissez-faire if we wish to make America great again (or we could opt for Anarcho-Capitalism, which would be even more desirable than laissez-faire).

It appears that the economic gains of the the last few decades is the result of "real existing socialism" in the incorrectly described "capitalist" countries. Socialism has been vindicated. Huzzah! :D

If they want to learn, most likely.Does not the presence of those who do not want to learn frequently disrupt the learning of others?

It's all about how one applies themselves to it. Do any American schools fail to offer AP classes or some sort of early entry to local colleges?I don't know, but I do know that they do not offer AP classes in all fields.
Simply because a specific class is conducive to learning doesn't mean there is an environment that is conducive to learning.