NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.

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Put up with it for 2 years then move out

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.Just let her talk to me.

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.
Explain to her that scripture, creed and ritual alone are insufficient in discovering the identity of God, and you want to try to understand him for what he is by exploring him outside of the earthly organisation that is the Christian Church. Also remind her that God's existence is a fact (or falsehood) regardless of what Christianity has to say about it.

On the other hand, bear in mind that God does not need to be believed in order to be a useful protocol in relationships. Perhaps, if compromise is necessary, you can agree on a few books to read and hold a kind of discussion session regularly to talk about it. After all, if your mom is anything like my parents, she'll appreciate and enjoy it when you take the time to think through her ideas and challenges and talk to her about them, regardless of whether or not you'll always agree.

In any case, as a dependant, you'd be wise not to make a move to leave until you're absolutely convinced you can find some other form of support, so keep things diplomatic for now.

Tell her that you'll see whose right eventualy.

I agree with Ifreann on this one. Put up with it until it's time to move out. If she wants, she can make your life hell so try to keep in her goods books. It isn't fair, I know, and not enjoyable but it has to be done.

Sounds normal for an over protective parent. I mean think of what could happen if you don't go to church on weekends, you could go get high on rave parties instead. Or to put it in another way, it sounds like going to church is an important part of the upbringing your mom is trying to give you. If you ignore one part now what else of what she thought you will you ignore in the future, will you end up with a criminal record and a pregnant girlfriend at 19?:eek:

Parents worry too much, don't let it get to you. Just try to be a good person and do what you feel is right. Listen to advice that is good but shrug it off and get over it when your parents go too far with their well meant advice.

give your mother the impression that you are going to get involved in something far worse than not going to church. something that would horrify her but is still realistic for your area.

if she is against the war in iraq, go down to the marine recruiting office.

if you have gangs in your area, start dressing and talking like a gang member around her

if you have a girlfriend, make her worried that your gf is pregnant

start studying the koran.

collect up some drug paraphernalia put it under your bed and start playing lots of heavy metal.


once she is beside herself with worry, your not going to church will be the least of it.

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.

That's a really weak excuse, if you were going to leave you'd of left.

Just pretend to read your Bible and go to church to make her happy. When you go leave for college you don't have to deal with that shit and that's what, two years away?

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.

Truth be told, there really isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Trying to explain to her your stance on religion will only result in further restriction or a summer spent at a bible study camp somewhere. You could always act out, as was previously suggested, but again... you're only asking for her to bring down the hammer even harder. My suggestion... suck it up. Is it really that bad? Hell, if reading the bible and going to church covered my room and board... I'd be dawning my Sunday best as we speak. Life doesn't play into your belief system. Complaining about it via blog or soapbox won't fix it. You'll only discover there's an endless sea of people wanting to get thier two cents in and all you're left with is a thread of useless posts. All you can really do is learn to not be so butt-hurt when those beliefs get trampled.

If getting it off your chest seems to help... by all means gripe away. I just wouldn't expect the clear cut solution. Life has a tendency to shit in your Cheerios on a daily basis. You just need to develope a thicker skin.

do what your mom says, try to be respectful, move out when you can and live your own life at that point.

I don't see the big issue here.

Well, generally if I were in that situation I would have told her to suck it. But, in your situation the best way out is either to suck it up or act out and dawn the black make-up.

I'm not sure you understand what a nutter is if you think a mother making a child go to church qualifies her as one.Making a child go to church is nuts.

If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left

Well, I see that you're really willing to put effort into this one.

I'm not sure you understand what a nutter is if you think a mother making a child go to church qualifies her as one.

The best resistance (at least in your case, seeing as how you're 16 and are unable to support yourself, thus making you completely dependent upon your mother) is a passive resistance.


You've already made your agnosticism known to your family.


Good.


Go to church though, as your mother wants, and sit quietly. Don't bow your head, don't say amen, don't sing the songs, don't participate in communion, don't clap when instructed, don't read from the bible when instructed by the pastor, don't do anything. Just sit still, eyes dead ahead with your head held high.

If anyone in your church asks you a question about god or your behavior, simply respond that you don't believe in god, or their god, or whatever your beliefs are. Be respectful about it, make no harsh or rash comments, just say the truth. If they try to argue with you, don't take the bait. Just tell them "Well that's one way to look at it" or say "That's a very interesting opinion." Don't give in to their tactics, you won't win because no matter what you say, in their eyes, you're wrong and they're right. ALWAYS. If your mother reacts to this, it will show people how unreasonable she is.

But it will get your point across plain and simple. And eventually, people will ask your mother to not bring an agnostic to church, and you may very well get your wish. Not through any arguments, not through any yelling or tears or hardships, but by just being silent, passively resisting.


I however did not do this. I resisted with open defiance, with enraged indignation. And all it did was get me kicked out of my house while i was still in high school, and i've been supporting myself ever since. (Not a bad ending really, but it would have sure been a lot easier if I had help from my parents).


Ultimately, the choice is yours, and i hope you choose wisely and are prepared for the consequences of whatever you decide. Remember, they may strip you of your civil rights, of your right to not go to church and so forth. But they can never, NEVER strip you of the right to think, and that is the purpose of passively resisting. You are letting them know that they can do whatever they want to you, and you will allow them, but they will never change your mind. You will never surrender.

I wish you well.

Do you have any not insane relatives you can live with?

I'd suggest faking it, pretending you care about your imaginary friend. You'll lose some dignity, but it will be worth not going through so much shit.

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.

Making a child go to church is nuts.

Damn right. :)

Since you asked for advice, here's mine;

First, I'm operating on the assumption that your mother loves you. I figure this is pretty safe because she's taking an interest in your activities. Remember, the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. Maybe she's trying to pass her faith along to you because it means so much in her life. Many people find religion to be a guiding influence, somewhat of a stabilizer in their lives.

Agnostic is defined as the belief that one cannot prove or disprove the existance of God, gods, etc. I agree with you, this cannot be *proven* one way or another.

This being the case, Christianity offers one possible explaination for the way things are in the world, and the Bible is full of many stories. Take it as such, and try to learn from it in a real-world sense. There's lots of practical life advice in there, as is in any holy book, all spirituality aside.

I guess what I'm saying is keep an open mind. People here are saying 'do it to keep your mom happy', I say 'do it anyway, you might learn something'.

The best resistance (at least in your case, seeing as how you're 16 and are unable to support yourself, thus making you completely dependent upon your mother) is a passive resistance.


You've already made your agnosticism known to your family.


Good.


Go to church though, as your mother wants, and sit quietly. Don't bow your head, don't say amen, don't sing the songs, don't participate in communion, don't clap when instructed, don't read from the bible when instructed by the pastor, don't do anything. Just sit still, eyes dead ahead with your head held high.

If anyone in your church asks you a question about god or your behavior, simply respond that you don't believe in god, or their god, or whatever your beliefs are. Be respectful about it, make no harsh or rash comments, just say the truth. If they try to argue with you, don't take the bait. Just tell them "Well that's one way to look at it" or say "That's a very interesting opinion." Don't give in to their tactics, you won't win because no matter what you say, in their eyes, you're wrong and they're right. ALWAYS. If your mother reacts to this, it will show people how unreasonable she is.

But it will get your point across plain and simple. And eventually, people will ask your mother to not bring an agnostic to church, and you may very well get your wish. Not through any arguments, not through any yelling or tears or hardships, but by just being silent, passively resisting.


I however did not do this. I resisted with open defiance, with enraged indignation. And all it did was get me kicked out of my house while i was still in high school, and i've been supporting myself ever since. (Not a bad ending really, but it would have sure been a lot easier if I had help from my parents).


Ultimately, the choice is yours, and i hope you choose wisely and are prepared for the consequences of whatever you decide. Remember, they may strip you of your civil rights, of your right to not go to church and so forth. But they can never, NEVER strip you of the right to think, and that is the purpose of passively resisting. You are letting them know that they can do whatever they want to you, and you will allow them, but they will never change your mind. You will never surrender.

I wish you well.

yeah...do that...

Christian zealots cannot be reasoned with by means of logic or rational thought.

All I can say is good luck.

Since you asked for advice, here's mine;

First, I'm operating on the assumption that your mother loves you. I figure this is pretty safe because she's taking an interest in your activities. Remember, the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. Maybe she's trying to pass her faith along to you because it means so much in her life. Many people find religion to be a guiding influence, somewhat of a stabilizer in their lives.

Agnostic is defined as the belief that one cannot prove or disprove the existance of God, gods, etc. I agree with you, this cannot be *proven* one way or another.

This being the case, Christianity offers one possible explaination for the way things are in the world, and the Bible is full of many stories. Take it as such, and try to learn from it in a real-world sense. There's lots of practical life advice in there, as is in any holy book, all spirituality aside.

I guess what I'm saying is keep an open mind. People here are saying 'do it to keep your mom happy', I say 'do it anyway, you might learn something'.


A parent who puts their god before their child has failed their child.

A parent who puts their god before their child has failed their child.Christians are failed people.

Christian zealots cannot be reasoned with by means of logic or rational thought.

All I can say is good luck.

Yeah, very true.

For the thread starter, I have one more piece of advice. This does not work all the time, and if it fails, the effects can be awful. That's your forewarning.

You can try numbing her through shock. If you sit back and whine and say "I don't want to go to church", she'll just keep on pushing you. Chances are if she's an extremist she will not react well to a different extreme.

Say things like "fuck your god", or "your entire religion is full of ignorant parasites". Really offensive things. If you're very lucky, the shock will cause her to completely give up on you.

Yeah, very true.

For the thread starter, I have one more piece of advice. This does not work all the time, and if it fails, the effects can be awful. That's your forewarning.

You can try numbing her through shock. If you sit back and whine and say "I don't want to go to church", she'll just keep on pushing you. Chances are if she's an extremist she will not react well to a different extreme.

Say things like "fuck your god", or "your entire religion is full of ignorant parasites". Really offensive things. If you're very lucky, the shock will cause her to completely give up on you.

I have to fully disagree with you there. If she really is a zealot, saying "fuck your god" will only bring her to believe that he is possesed by a demon, and she will act accordingly. The more violent and open he becomes with his beliefs, the more she will become with hers. It will give her even more of a reason to try and "save her son."

Any further "open aggression" shown by the OP will only escalate the situation.

However, if he's able to show her through calm and controlled means that he does not believe in god, then she will most likely overreact (as is expected) but she will not feel justified in resorting to too extreme measures.

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.
Be a good boy and study Leviticus, then point out all your mother's faults. I'm sure she's eating stuff that was specifically forbidden, and that she doesn't seclude herself at "that time of month" to name bu two issues. Just out-zealot her.

You could also try reasoning, and explain that while she might force you to go to church and read the bible, she can't force you to believe. And that more than likely she's just pushing you further away from god by her intolerant behaviour.

Christian zealots cannot be reasoned with by means of logic or rational thought.

All I can say is good luck.

I have to fully disagree with you there. If she really is a zealot, saying "fuck your god" will only bring her to believe that he is possesed by a demon, and she will act accordingly. The more violent and open he becomes with his beliefs, the more she will become with hers. It will give her even more of a reason to try and "save her son."

Any further "open aggression" shown by the OP will only escalate the situation.

However, if he's able to show her through calm and controlled means that he does not believe in god, then she will most likely overreact (as is expected) but she will not feel justified in resorting to too extreme measures.

I gave a warning that it has a low chance of working. That is true. There is a reason I suggested this though.

Christian fundamentalists don't listen to reason. They won't listen to "I'm just not sure.", "I disagree but I respect your beliefs.", or "I'm agnostic because........but I still think Christianity is a very good religion.".

Fundamentalists don't listen to logic. You can be a nice, loving, agnostic person with friends and a good job who does a lot for society, but if you're not a Christian they will view you as evil.

My previous suggestion only works on a fundamentalist, which this person's mother seems to be. If the person is reasonable, then negotiate as politely as possible, but fundamentalists have no sense of reason.

Why not tell her you'll be a good christian if she can explain to you why she believes in god,then challenge her beliefs with a couple of arguments,explain the theory of evolution to her,give her logical and philosophical paradoxes of christianity,if she wants you to read the bible show her the passages where god or christians commit murders of infants,and so on.Chances are you can leave her questioning the religion herself,if she is willing to discuss with you.

evil-bible.com is great infosource.

you can learn all about how the christian god loves murder, rape, incest, infanticide, and even abortion.

give your mother the impression that you are going to get involved in something far worse than not going to church. something that would horrify her but is still realistic for your area.

if she is against the war in iraq, go down to the marine recruiting office.

if you have gangs in your area, start dressing and talking like a gang member around her

if you have a girlfriend, make her worried that your gf is pregnant

start studying the koran.

collect up some drug paraphernalia put it under your bed and start playing lots of heavy metal.


once she is beside herself with worry, your not going to church will be the least of it.Better yet, use this tactic, but tell her that the people at church gave you the impression that it was a good idea.

just point out to her that she's believing in a big beardy bloke in the sky.
if she still believes in god, maybe you should tell her again but
S-L-O-W-L-Y A-N-D C-L-E-A-R-L-Y. she's bound to work it out eventually.

It is difficult to deal with ANY sort of zealot if you dont know how. But there are ways. Passive resistance has been suggested, you can try debating if your good at it, and capable of making people listen.
Yes, zealots are difficult to argue with, but if you can get them to actually LISTEN to you, then there is some chance.
I managed to convience my mother that I didnt believe in going to church, but was still Christian. And its true. Remember, your arguements dont have to all be based in reason, in fact, sounding good is generally better than being good arguements. I particularly impressed a few with the ol', "Gods Earth is His only church." arguement.
So, try argueing that you ARE Christian, on further inspection of your beliefs, even if it isnt entirly true. "I believe in God/Supreme Being, however, I dont believe (whatever)."
Your mother might view this as an acceptable compromise, and while you might still get the cold shoulder occasionally, you might not be activly punished anymore.

Even when I was a Christian I loathed church, mostly because I had to wake up early and frankly, I got bored very easily. Fortunately my mom gave up on going to church because most of the people there ticked her and Dad off, plus she didn't really see the point of going to church anyway. When my sister told her I was an atheist she was looking at a church to go to (for a Christmas service, last Christmas was the first Christmas in a looonnng time that we hadn't gone to church), but that was coincidence but when she found out I was an atheist then she wanted me to go. We didn't. She soon kicked me off NSG, but I came back. :)

All you can do is pretty much just go to church. But... you could try the passive resistance. Or you can try passive resistance AND make a few friends. Most kids at my last church sat in separate pews from their parents. If you have any friends there and if your mom says it's okay, do this. If not, bring a pen and doodle on the church programs. Or just try the passive resistance. I fail at advice.

BTW, if you want to talk to someone who's been through almost the same thing, I'm always here. :)

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.
I'm not really sure I would call this zealotry. When I first saw the thread title, I was thinking "Irish Republican Army" or "Eric Randolph". This is more stubbornness on the part of your mother.

I would advice continuing to go through the motions the way your mother wants, all the while making it clear you don't believe it. She's understandably upset, but that doesn't mean you should change your beliefs just to pacify her. In a few years, you can stop going through the motions when you leave home, but for right now, I would try thinking of going to church or reading from the Bible as the arbitrary rules that exist in every family (things like "no television after nine", or "ask before you bring a friend home).

Accept that property is nine tenths of the law and do as you're told or move out.
Remember the old adage: "know your role and shut your mouth".

Put a lock on your bedroom door. Don't obey your mother.

Although the idea of engaging your mother in detailed theological and philosophical debate is attractive, realistically I think you're going to have to go along with her for the moment. Do you plan to go to university and if so are you going to be relying on her financial support? Can you afford to move out at this point?

Personally, I'd recommend that you stick it out at least until you're eighteen at which point you can either make your own way or go to university a long way away.

Put a lock on your bedroom door. Don't obey your mother.

At what age can American parents legally kick their children out of the house?

Become a zealot like her. Tell her that you want to have yourself crucified to show your faith in Jesus. Then go outside and start building a giant cross. If she doesn't stop you, and say, helps you out, then run inside and call the DCFS, and boom! You can go live elsewhere :D

Become a zealot like her. Tell her that you want to have yourself crucified to show your faith in Jesus. Then go outside and start building a giant cross. If she doesn't stop you, and say, helps you out, then run inside and call the DCFS, and boom! You can go live elsewhere :D

Oh hey, listen to Zilam!!

At what age can American parents legally kick their children out of the house?

Any age. All they have to do is sign papers at the county sub courthouse and file a motion for separation.


If you are 17 (different states have different ages), you will be out on your own having to support yourself in Texas.

If you are 16 or younger, you will be assigned to a foster family.

At what age can American parents legally kick their children out of the house?

either 17 or 18.

At what age can American parents legally kick their children out of the house?

Eighteen, I suppose.

At what age can American parents legally kick their children out of the house?The relevant question rather is at what age one can move out and live on one's own.

@Forbeston: Just tell your mother that you'll move out and sue her for support.

Any age. All they have to do is sign papers at the county sub courthouse and file a motion for separation.


If you are 17 (different states have different ages), you will be out on your own having to support yourself in Texas.

If you are 16 or younger, you will be assigned to a foster family.

either 17 or 18.

Eighteen, I suppose.

In that case I definately wouldn't recommend confrontation.

The relevant question rather is at what age one can move out and live on one's own.

@Forbeston: Just tell your mother that you'll move out and sue her for support.

You can't sue your parents for support.

If anything, they can actually file Juvenile Deliquency Charges and have the police arrest you if you leave home at age 16. It will be put on your permanent record, all that jazz.

In short, don't run away.

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.
I'll be honest, je m'en fiche.

Put up with them.

I'll be honest, je m'en fiche.

Put up with them.Cause them as much religious pain as you possibly can.

do what your mom says, try to be respectful, move out when you can and live your own life at that point.

I don't see the big issue here.

Be respectful of orders that are nothing short of outrightly moronic? That works.:rolleyes:

Tell the silly bint to fuck off, or just do what you want anyway and see how far you can push her. Try pretending to be possessed in church

Cause them as much religious pain as you possibly can.
OOOOR...

Just put up with it and stop being a fuckwit.

You can't sue your parents for support.

If anything, they can actually file Juvenile Deliquency Charges and have the police arrest you if you leave home at age 16. It will be put on your permanent record, all that jazz.

In short, don't run away.If you want to leave home, instead sue for separation. Occasionally judges find in favor of minors that don't want to live with their parents anymore, if they have sufficient grounds.

It's not that fun to "put up with" religious fundamentalists.

Be respectful of orders that are nothing short of outrightly moronic? That works.:rolleyes:

Tell the silly bint to fuck off, or just do what you want anyway and see how far you can push her. Try pretending to be possessed in church

if you have so little respect for your parents why not move out?

I would expect that people I financially support would have a little more respect than to tell me to fuck off.

It's not that fun to "put up with" religious fundamentalists.
*gets the violin out*

Life is not fair.
if you have so little respect for your parents why not move out?

I would expect that people I financially support would have a little more respect than to tell me to fuck off.
Yeah, quite.

if you have so little respect for your parents why not move out?

I would expect that people I financially support would have a little more respect than to tell me to fuck off.

I would hope that parents have a little more respect for their 16 year old children than to force them to read the Bible.

Sounds like there's disappointment all around, no?

OOOOR...

Just put up with it and stop being a fuckwit.There is no reason to put up with it. And someone who questions his parents' beliefs is not a fuckwit.

I would hope that parents have a little more respect for their 16 year old children than to force them to read the Bible.Forcing someone to read the bible would mean to get them away from Christianity, and that's exactly what the parent at issue does not want.

Christians are failed people.

:rolleyes:

I'm a semi practicing Christian (semi practicing means I believe in God, and I pray, but don't go to church except during special occasions). How exactly am I a failed person? Because I believe in something you don't? That just means that we're different (and different doesn't mean bad).

BTW, I'm not one of the preachy Christians. I don't usually get involved in religious debates, I don't make people feel bad about not believing in God, and I don't judge people for their lifestyles or choices. I try to treat everyone with the kind of respect that I would want them to treat me with.

There is no reason to put up with it. And someone who questions his parents' beliefs is not a fuckwit.
Someone who complains about life being sooooo unfair, when they're getting free meals, however, is.

:rolleyes:

I'm a semi practicing Christian (semi practicing means I believe in God, and I pray, but don't go to church except during special occasions). How exactly am I a failed person? Because I believe in something you don't? That just means that we're different (and different doesn't mean bad).

BTW, I'm not one of the preachy Christians. I don't usually get involved in religious debates, I don't make people feel bad about not believing in God, and I don't judge people for their lifestyles or choices. I try to treat everyone with the kind of respect that I would want them to treat me with.

I wouldn't bother trying to talk to UB about Christianity, or the Bible, or Judaism. Or anything to do with religion, generally. It's likely to be a distinct waste of your time.

Someone who complains about life being sooooo unfair, when they're getting free meals, however, is.If parents make conditions as to the ideology of their kids then those meals are no longer free.

How exactly am I a failed person? Because I believe in something you don't? That just means that we're different (and different doesn't mean bad).You believe in a fabricated jewish deity, although you should know better. That's a failure and flaw of character. Difference is not necessarily bad as such, but only if that difference does not make you follow a vain ideology. Why don't you become a Hindu, for an instance?

You believe in a fabricated jewish deity, although you should know better. That's a failure and flaw of character. Difference is not necessarily bad as such, but only if that difference does not make you follow a vain ideology. Why don't you become a Hindu, for an instance?

I'm going to take HotRodia's advice, as I don't think you'd accept why I believe in God or Jesus Christ.

As to why I don't become a Hindu, it's because I don't believe in that faith (although I have nothing against those people that do believe in Hinduism, or any other faith or non-faith).

That's no good. :( I don't really have any advice to give you, except to stick to what you believe in, even if you do have to read the Bible and go to church. I guess I can kind of relate to it in a different way, in the thing that I've talked about a lot on this forum before, that my mom doesn't believe that I'm not attracted to anyone and always talks about "when" I get married and "when" I have kids, like it's certain to happen even though it's nothing like what I want. But I'm just glad that my mom can't force me to date... but even if she could, she couldn't force me to change who I am, and that I'm not attracted to anyone, just like your mother can make you go to church but can't change who you are and that you don't believe in God, I guess.

You believe in a fabricated jewish deity, although you should know better. That's a failure and flaw of character. Difference is not necessarily bad as such, but only if that difference does not make you follow a vain ideology. Why don't you become a Hindu, for an instance?

I don't go to church very often, but when I do it gives me a peaceful feeling that I don't get anywhere else. I don't think it's a bad thing to believe in something that by doing so brings me happiness and peace and by bringing me happiness and peace doesn't hurt anyone else.

do what your mom says, try to be respectful, move out when you can and live your own life at that point.

I don't see the big issue here.

QFT!

I would really like to see those that responded here have their children respond to them in the same manner when it comes to what they think is right/wrong.

Seriously, you are 16, find a job and start saving up. in two years, move out and live your life, then you can live by your rules.

The best resistance (at least in your case, seeing as how you're 16 and are unable to support yourself, thus making you completely dependent upon your mother) is a passive resistance.


You've already made your agnosticism known to your family.


Good.


Go to church though, as your mother wants, and sit quietly. Don't bow your head, don't say amen, don't sing the songs, don't participate in communion, don't clap when instructed, don't read from the bible when instructed by the pastor, don't do anything. Just sit still, eyes dead ahead with your head held high.

If anyone in your church asks you a question about god or your behavior, simply respond that you don't believe in god, or their god, or whatever your beliefs are. Be respectful about it, make no harsh or rash comments, just say the truth. If they try to argue with you, don't take the bait. Just tell them "Well that's one way to look at it" or say "That's a very interesting opinion." Don't give in to their tactics, you won't win because no matter what you say, in their eyes, you're wrong and they're right. ALWAYS. If your mother reacts to this, it will show people how unreasonable she is.

But it will get your point across plain and simple. And eventually, people will ask your mother to not bring an agnostic to church, and you may very well get your wish. Not through any arguments, not through any yelling or tears or hardships, but by just being silent, passively resisting.


I however did not do this. I resisted with open defiance, with enraged indignation. And all it did was get me kicked out of my house while i was still in high school, and i've been supporting myself ever since. (Not a bad ending really, but it would have sure been a lot easier if I had help from my parents).


Ultimately, the choice is yours, and i hope you choose wisely and are prepared for the consequences of whatever you decide. Remember, they may strip you of your civil rights, of your right to not go to church and so forth. But they can never, NEVER strip you of the right to think, and that is the purpose of passively resisting. You are letting them know that they can do whatever they want to you, and you will allow them, but they will never change your mind. You will never surrender.

I wish you well.
Ding ding ding ding ding!

We have a winner, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone else!

if you have so little respect for your parents why not move out?

I would expect that people I financially support would have a little more respect than to tell me to fuck off.

I expect my parents to be able to tell me what to do (well, at 18, they trust my judgement, but I'm lucky in that respect) when it is in my interests. However, to impose such illogical conditions upon a child is wrong, and tantamount to attempted indoctrination. What benefit is served by forcing a kid to go to church and only participate in "christian" activities?

I don't go to church very often, but when I do it gives me a peaceful feeling that I don't get anywhere else.See, that's the problem. You search comfort, not knowledge.

See, that's the problem. You search comfort, not knowledge.

Oh for the love of fuck...would you just stop it already? You're giving atheists like me who want to help people get past the need for faith a bad name because unlike me, you're being horribly confrontational and offensive about it.

Oh for the love of fuck...would you just stop it already? You're giving atheists like me who want to help people get past the need for faith a bad name because unlike me, you're being horribly confrontational and offensive about it.

He might be being a little Dawkins-esque in his approach, but he is wholly valid in what he says.

Religion is a source of comfort, rather than knowledge; perhaps more in the scientific, if not emotional and personal sense, but nonetheless, religion remains a comfort blanket for most.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

We have a winner, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone else!

actually it's not a wining post.

why? Chances are, if he does get to explain his beliefs. It would NOT lead to the parish asking her to keep him at home, but invitations to join bible study classes that the church may hold during the week.

And giving what he's posted already, his parents will most likely require that he goes.

The Parish won't turn an agnostic or non-believer away. they will work on embracing him into the fold.

This is my suggestion. :p
Go to church for a couple of weeks. then sneak out and find out if your church has a "Child care" for children too young to sit through the Sermon. if they do, then start volunteering to watch the kids.

then start volunteering every Sunday. your mother won't complain since you're 1) going to church and 2) helping out.

I would really like to see those that responded here have their children respond to them in the same manner when it comes to what they think is right/wrong.



I would not require my child to share my convictions, either politically, or, if I had any, religiously. It is so much authoratarian tripe to expect as much, when it is clearly not of any benefit to the child, and only appeases the ego and neuroseses of the parent.

What benefits are there by forcing a confrontation between parent and child while the child is still legally bound to the parent?

She has no right to force her child to attend church or to attempt to inculcate him into christianity; any reasonable parent would not do as much.

I expect my parents to be able to tell me what to do (well, at 18, they trust my judgement, but I'm lucky in that respect) when it is in my interests. However, to impose such illogical conditions upon a child is wrong, and tantamount to attempted indoctrination. What benefit is served by forcing a kid to go to church and only participate in "christian" activities?
What benefits are there by forcing a confrontation between parent and child while the child is still legally bound to the parent?

He might be being a little Dawkins-esque in his approach, but he is wholly valid in what he says.

Religion is a source of comfort, rather than knowledge; perhaps more in the scientific, if not emotional and personal sense, but nonetheless, religion remains a comfort blanket for most.
No, he's not Dawkins-esque. Dawkins is not as militant as he is claimed to be by his opposition...I used to believe he was militant too until I bothered to actually read some of what he's written and listen to what he's said. He could probably do a wee bit better at phrasing certain things more politely, yes, but he's definitely not on the scale of United Bederland, not by far.

And whether he's right or not is not the point...the simple fact is that UB is a complete and total jackass who really ought to just shut up.

actually it's not a wining post.

why? Chances are, if he does get to explain his beliefs. It would NOT lead to the parish asking her to keep him at home, but invitations to join bible study classes that the church may hold during the week.

And giving what he's posted already, his parents will most likely require that he goes.

The Parish won't turn an agnostic or non-believer away. they will work on embracing him into the fold.

Maybe. It's worth a shot, though, since it has a much better chance of succeeding than any other suggestion I've seen.

No, he's not Dawkins-esque. Dawkins is not as militant as he is claimed to be by his opposition...I used to believe he was militant too until I bothered to actually read some of what he's written and listen to what he's said. He could probably do a wee bit better at phrasing certain things more politely, yes, but he's definitely not on the scale of United Bederland, not by far.

And whether he's right or not is not the point...the simple fact is that UB is a complete and total jackass who really ought to just shut up.






A truth is a truth however it is phrased, and a rational person embarces truth unconditionally.

Its best to just not talk to UB. He's sort of like an inverted version of the OP's parents in terms of faith. Put another way, mixing UB and Christianity is sort of like mixing matter and anti-matter, only anti-matter doesnt normally turn to stone when exposed to daylight.
Throw a goat at him, that'll keep him busy.

A truth is a truth however it is phrased, and a rational person embarces truth unconditionally.

You have a lot of nerve saying that considering your racist attitudes. You're correct, but you still have a lot of nerve.

I would not require my child to share my convictions, either politically, or, if I had any, religiously. It is so much authoratarian tripe to expect as much, when it is clearly not of any benefit to the child, and only appeases the ego and neuroseses of the parent.
You mean any benefit YOU see to the child.

I'm sure his parents see some benefit to him going to church.

You have a lot of nerve saying that considering your racist attitudes. You're correct, but you still have a lot of nerve.

Culturally elitist, thank you very much.:)

You mean any benefit YOU see to the child.

I'm sure his parents see some benefit to him going to church.

I'm dealing in reality here; it is of palpable benefit to a child to ensure they succeed academically, to ensure they are healthy, and to ensure that they are polite, well-mannered and well spoken.

What benefit is there to forcing a child to attend church and only participate in "christian" activities? It might very well cause permanent mental damage, and see them become every inch as rabid an atheist as UB, who, you all profess, is odious.

She has no right to force her child to attend church or to attempt to inculcate him into christianity; any reasonable parent would not do as much. reasonable by your standards, but it could be perfectly reasonable for them. who are you to say they can't force their opinions and view on him while forcing your opinions and views on them?

sounds like after all these years of going to church he still thinks for himself. so, what are the options. direct confontations that can end badly for a result that would still occure if given time? or passive resistance to make those last two years slide by as painlesly as possible then get the same (if not better) results?

Maybe. It's worth a shot, though, since it has a much better chance of succeeding than any other suggestion I've seen.It's his choice to make, I'm just saying chances are it will leave him in a worst (to him) situation.

Culturally elitist, thank you very much.:)

Then I would suggest you stop talking about truth until you learn the truth that your attitudes are harmful and incorrect.

It's his choice to make, I'm just saying chances are it will leave him in a worst (to him) situation.

Fair enough. We'll see, I suppose.

reasonable by your standards, but it could be perfectly reasonable for them. who are you to say they can't force their opinions and view on him while forcing your opinions and views on them?

I am not proposing to force anything upon the parent other than an acceptance that a person has right to think for themselves, and should not be forced to attend religious meetings against their will.

sounds like after all these years of going to church he still thinks for himself. so, what are the options. direct confontations that can end badly for a result that would still occure if given time? or passive resistance to make those last two years slide by as painlesly as possible then get the same (if not better) results?


Passive resistance that allows morons such as the mother to continue to shit on the path of human development by perpetuating religious fundamentalism through providing the impression that they are making an impact? Many thanks, but I'd hope my parents had a little respect for my opinions.

Then I would suggest you stop talking about truth until you learn the truth that your attitudes are harmful and incorrect.


Harmful? I bloody hope so. Anything I can do to help in the failure of British multiculturalism qualifies as an excellent course of action.

Incorrect? Not really. The culture to which I subscribe does not mug people, endorse violence, commit acts of terrorism or, for that matter, do anything more "naughty" than take the odd drug.

I'm dealing in reality here; it is of palpable benefit to a child to ensure they succeed academically, to ensure they are healthy, and to ensure that they are polite, well-mannered and well spoken.

What benefit is there to forcing a child to attend church and only participate in "christian" activities? It might very well cause permanent mental damage, and see them become every inch as rabid an atheist as UB, who, you all profess, is odious.
or *gasp* it might cause him to 'find God'... lord knows people don't want that either. :rolleyes:

the problem is, his head on confrontation with his parents stand a better chance of damaging his relationship with his parents than him being coming either an Athiest or Religious Zelot.

Family is the best support one can have when starting out on your own. why blow that way?

so again, what are the benefits of FORICING a confrontation between parent and child?

Harmful? I bloody hope so. Anything I can do to help in the failure of British multiculturalism qualifies as an excellent course of action.

Incorrect? Not really. The culture to which I subscribe does not mug people, endorse violence, commit acts of terrorism or, for that matter, do anything more "naughty" than take the odd drug.

Believe in your superiority if you want. Praise yourself for your hatreds, for believing that every single person not of your culture must be something horribly bad and might not be what you think they are. Be irrational. Have your little faith in your cultural superiority.

Excuse me while I laugh at how hypocritical you're being.

or *gasp* it might cause him to 'find God'... lord knows people don't want that either. :rolleyes:

the problem is, his head on confrontation with his parents stand a better chance of damaging his relationship with his parents than him being coming either an Athiest or Religious Zelot.

Family is the best support one can have when starting out on your own. why blow that way?

so again, what are the benefits of FORICING a confrontation between parent and child?

A confrontation would take place anyway if the child no longer wants to deal with the parents oppressive teachings. Forcing your kid to go to church is pretty pointless as I'm sure any worthwhile zealot would know that paying lip service doesn't gain you anything to their God. Of course, their kid leaving the church would make THEM look bad in front of their fellow churchgoers so that would be a reason to force their child's attendance...

[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938] or *gasp* it might cause him to 'find God'... lord knows people don't want that either. :rolleyes:[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938]

The benefits of a decent education, namely, a decent career, are an objective truth. The benefits of "finding God" are subjective in the extreme, requiring the child to subscribe to the sensibilities of the parents. Surely if God is all he's cracked up to be anyway, the child could find him equally well of his accord in adulthood?

[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938] the problem is, his head on confrontation with his parents stand a better chance of damaging his relationship with his parents than him being coming either an Athiest or Religious Zelot.[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938]

Of course it does. However, quite why a raving fruitloop such as his mother should be of any great help beyond purely financial (even then I would bet it would be with wholly christian qualifications) is beyond me.

[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938] Family is the best support one can have when starting out on your own. why blow that way?[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938]

See above.

[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938] so again, what are the benefits of FORICING a confrontation between parent and child? [QUOTE=JuNii;13038938]

Parent= counterproductive fruitloop/albatross about humanity's neck.

Reducing her influence would surely be an excellent idea.

I am not proposing to force anything upon the parent other than an acceptance that a person has right to think for themselves, and should not be forced to attend religious meetings against their will.yet you just said "No Reasonable Parent would" but you define Reasonable by your standards.

He thinks for himself and he just found out that his parents are deeply religous. Now there are other ways to handle the situation that does not lead to open rebellion or confrontation on any side.

Passive resistance that allows morons such as the mother to continue to shit on the path of human development by perpetuating religious fundamentalism through providing the impression that they are making an impact? Many thanks, but I'd hope my parents had a little respect for my opinions. "shit on the path of human development?" again, your opinion on the results of attending church. how is she shitting on the path of human development? or are you one who automatically thinks (like UB) that Religion = Shitting on the path of Human Delevopment?

Passive Resistance (especially since he's only got 2 years to go) won't damage his relationship with his parents. Now if it's to the point where he doesn't care about his relationship with his parents, then fine. that's his choice. How he chooses to deal with his parents will determine if those last two years will be bearable or not.

Believe in your superiority if you want. Praise yourself for your hatreds, for believing that every single person not of your culture must be something horribly bad and might not be what you think they are. Be irrational. Have your little faith in your cultural superiority.

Excuse me while I laugh at how hypocritical you're being.

Did I explcitly state as much? Did I explicitly state that everybody who does not subscribe to my cultural sensibilities is criminal? Nope. Every culture, scene, what you will, has good and bad elements. However, I suggest you would be hard pressed to claim that chav culture, gangsta culture and the like is a socially beneficial force. In light of this, I'm more than prepared to hold my culture to be generally superior to theirs, whilst allowing for exceptions and quaifications.

yet you just said "No Reasonable Parent would" but you define Reasonable by your standards.

He thinks for himself and he just found out that his parents are deeply religous. Now there are other ways to handle the situation that does not lead to open rebellion or confrontation on any side.

"shit on the path of human development?" again, your opinion on the results of attending church. how is she shitting on the path of human development? or are you one who automatically thinks (like UB) that Religion = Shitting on the path of Human Delevopment?

Passive Resistance (especially since he's only got 2 years to go) won't damage his relationship with his parents. Now if it's to the point where he doesn't care about his relationship with his parents, then fine. that's his choice. How he chooses to deal with his parents will determine if those last two years will be bearable or not.

I do not refer to her attending church solely; most church goers I know, and admittedly we have rather less christian fundies in south east England than the USA, are thoroughly decent people. I refer more to her clear desire to inculcate her children into her religion; such nonsense is an anachronism.

Incidentally, I'm willing to bet my standards of "reasonable parenting" would be closer to the western norm, and that which is of palpable, material benefit to the child, than the mother described.

However, I suggest you would be hard pressed to claim that chav culture, gangsta culture and the like is a socially beneficial force.
I know this isn't what you mean, but the fact that a culture of violence and open disrespect has flourished is symptomatic of something wrong with the wider social construct. In that respect, yes. It is a beneficial force, just as pain is to the human body.

Did I explcitly state as much? Did I explicitly state that everybody who does not subscribe to my cultural sensibilities is criminal? Nope. Every culture, scene, what you will, has good and bad elements. However, I suggest you would be hard pressed to claim that chav culture, gangsta culture and the like is a socially beneficial force. In light of this, I'm more than prepared to hold my culture to be generally superior to theirs, whilst allowing for exceptions and quaifications.
You're dodging my point. The problem is that you associate yourself and people with your culture as automatically superior without recognizing the fact that people are not two-dimensional cardboard cut-outs with stamped personalities, beliefs, motivations, ect ect. You act as if people are automatically acting exactly like your culture would have them to act just by virtue of associating with that culture, AND you also act as if people who associate with other cultures must automatically fit your view of that culture.

And I was pointing far more towards your hatred of Muslims and other minorities, not chavs.

A confrontation would take place anyway if the child no longer wants to deal with the parents oppressive teachings. Forcing your kid to go to church is pretty pointless as I'm sure any worthwhile zealot would know that paying lip service doesn't gain you anything to their God. Of course, their kid leaving the church would make THEM look bad in front of their fellow churchgoers so that would be a reason to force their child's attendance...and if that's the parents excuse, that they don't want to look bad. then a nice quite discussion with the preist on VANITY will set the parents straight and would get the priest on His side.

or *gasp* it might cause him to 'find God'... lord knows people don't want that either. :rolleyes:

The benefits of a decent education, namely, a decent career, are an objective truth. The benefits of "finding God" are subjective in the extreme, requiring the child to subscribe to the sensibilities of the parents. Surely if God is all he's cracked up to be anyway, the child could find him equally well of his accord in adulthood? yet isn't Diplomacy, Tact, and Confrontation Management also beneficial to an decent career and also better when developed at an early age?

the problem is, his head on confrontation with his parents stand a better chance of damaging his relationship with his parents than him being coming either an Athiest or Religious Zelot.
Of course it does. However, quite why a raving fruitloop such as his mother should be of any great help beyond purely financial (even then I would bet it would be with wholly christian qualifications) is beyond me.so people who think differently, have different beliefs than you, or don't act the way you would no uses or can provide no help or assistance what so ever in your opinion?

Family is the best support one can have when starting out on your own. why blow that way?[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938]

See above. the sad thing is. I can see you cutting off support of your child becuse of your above reasons.

sure you want others to respect your opinions but it seems you have little patience to other peoples opinions as well.

[QUOTE=JuNii;13038938] so again, what are the benefits of FORICING a confrontation between parent and child?

Parent= counterproductive fruitloop/albatross about humanity's neck.

Reducing her influence would surely be an excellent idea.
yep... Counterproductive fruitloop... and albatross about HUMANITY's neck... yep I see you hold other people's viewpoints with LOADS of respect. :rolleyes:

You're dodging my point. The problem is that you associate yourself and people with your culture as automatically superior without recognizing the fact that people are not two-dimensional cardboard cut-outs with stamped personalities, beliefs, motivations, ect ect. You act as if people are automatically acting exactly like your culture would have them to act just by virtue of associating with that culture, AND you also act as if people who associate with other cultures must automatically fit your view of that culture.

And I was pointing far more towards your hatred of Muslims and other minorities, not chavs.


I don't mind Muslims. Polite and well mannered from my experience, although I'm baffled why their being in the UK is of any benefit to it.

I do not refer to her attending church solely; most church goers I know, and admittedly we have rather less christian fundies in south east England than the USA, are thoroughly decent people. I refer more to her clear desire to inculcate her children into her religion; such nonsense is an anachronism.

Incidentally, I'm willing to bet my standards of "reasonable parenting" would be closer to the western norm, and that which is of palpable, material benefit to the child, than the mother described.
I somehow doubt that causing a schism between parent and child would fall under western norm.

she overreacted. I agree with that. however, everyone's replies (including yours) are also overreactions all that does is snowball into a situation where the relationship between parent and son would be damaged. I experieced family schisms and it's not fun. especially schisms that are built on overreactions.

there are ways to handle the situation that can leave all parties invovled satisfied. direct confontation isn't one of em.

Just let her talk to me.

Let her talk to a rational agnostic or atheist person. Not one who is a genocide supporting and racist fool.

Someone who complains about life being sooooo unfair, when they're getting free meals, however, is.

I know plenty of parents who raise their kids (with a good moral standard) but don't force religion on them. You get free meals in jail, that doesn't make it a great place.

I know this isn't what you mean, but the fact that a culture of violence and open disrespect has flourished is symptomatic of something wrong with the wider social construct. In that respect, yes. It is a beneficial force, just as pain is to the human body.

Please try and tell that to the families of those stabbed, shot and assualted every night by the depraved little bastards. But it just couldn't be their fault could it? Never.

Middle class takes crack? How dare they!

Chav stabs child on bike? Oh deary me, blame society.:rolleyes:

I don't mind Muslims. Polite and well mannered from my experience, although I'm baffled why their being in the UK is of any benefit to it.

Yeah, see, that's the thing...you don't want them around because you see yourself as superior and thus the U.K. "doesn't need them" or some stupid bullshit. Why should they be refused admission to live in the United Kingdom if they choose to live there? What the bloody hell makes you more deserving of living there than them?

I somehow doubt that causing a schism between parent and child would fall under western norm.

she overreacted. I agree with that. however, everyone's replies (including yours) are also overreactions all that does is snowball into a situation where the relationship between parent and son would be damaged. I experieced family schisms and it's not fun. especially schisms that are built on overreactions.

there are ways to handle the situation that can leave all parties invovled satisfied. direct confontation isn't one of em.


Confrontation worked for me, and, equally, if family unity required me to make sacrifice after sacrifice, betraying my principles, then frankly it isn't worth it.

Moreover, the western norm of parenting would not put a child in a situation where they are required to attend church against their will.

Yeah, see, that's the thing...you don't want them around because you see yourself as superior and thus the U.K. "doesn't need them" or some stupid bullshit. Why should they be refused admission to live in the United Kingdom if they choose to live there? What the bloody hell makes you more deserving of living there than them?

Well, like it or not, they are recent immigrants, whereas I'm pretty damn sure my ancestors have lived in the UK for a good few centuries. However, that really isn't the point.

Why should immigration be permitted if it is not economically necessary, given that no amount of left wing blather can disguise the fact it is socially and culturally divisive?

Well religious indoctrination to children doesn't always work remember, in a modern world it's near impossible (especially with school etc) to manipulate a child's environment to that degree. Either of two things will happen, either the child will totally reject Christianity and hate everyone Christian for the rest of their lives, or they will be a massive Christian nutter, you know the protesting outside abortion clinic type.

Well religious indoctrination to children doesn't always work remember, in a modern world it's near impossible (especially with school etc) to manipulate a child's environment to that degree. Either of two things will happen, either the child will totally reject Christianity and hate everyone Christian for the rest of their lives, or they will be a massive Christian nutter, you know the protesting outside abortion clinic type.

I"d feel really sorry for the child though, either way his/her childhood will be sucked away by repressive religious beliefs. Sad.

Let her talk to a rational agnostic or atheist person. Not one who is a genocide supporting and racist fool.
Funny, that's exactly what your Zionist crowd support.

Please try and tell that to the families of those stabbed, shot and assualted every night by the depraved little bastards. But it just couldn't be their fault could it? Never.

Middle class takes crack? How dare they!

Chav stabs child on bike? Oh deary me, blame society.:rolleyes:
We can't dodge collective responsibility for what sections of those who are under our supposed protection and tutelage get themselves into. Immediate violent actions are the fault of the individual, but we create the individual. We educate (or fail to do so), discipline (or fail to do so) and encourage and support (or fail to do so) those around us and it is through this that the individual is formed. Given the appropriate conditioning from a young age, you and I could quite easily be exactly as those we criticise. It is nothing more than coincidence that we are not.

We all have ideas as to where we are going wrong, but the focus must be on the collective "us" rather than just the accusative "them"; They are Us, regardless of whether we are too proud to admit it.

EDIT: Incidentally, prevention rather than cure has always been my policy, and I'm sure most families would agree that stopping this disease at its root is just as important (if not even more so) as engaging in direct punitive justice.

Yeah, they support the state of Israel at the expense of those whose land it belongs you.

Also, so what if I support attacks on Israel, it's not a legitimate state, it's just a massive army occupying a tiny bit of land.

Funny, that's exactly what your Zionist crowd support.

If that were the case, then Palestinians would've been eradicated 60 years ago. Seeing as how their population has tripled since then, I think you don't have a leg to stand on.

Now please do me a favor and answer this question. I posed it in three separate threads and you ignored it each time because you don't have the guts to answer.

-------------------------------------------------

Go read this. .It's one of the several cases where I posed you this question.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12995541&postcount=32

IMO can Zionist supporter is a legitimate target for helping such an ethnic-ultranationalist demagogy in it's terrible deeds.

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.p...&postcount=116

Let's take this single quote from your pathetic rants.

It is easy to interpret that you support the mass killing of 85-90% of the Jewish population and are thus anti-semitic.

I'm going to go a different route though.

I"m going to ask you a question

What is a Zionist?

(anyone who supports the idea of Israel's existance is the answer. Any person who supports a 2 state solution even one giving up Jerusalem to the Arabs is by definition a Zionist whether they realize it or not) my answer and the generally accepted dictionary def

Now I want to know your answer to the question.

If you answer differently, then you are simply uneducated and thus your opinions on this matter are invalid due to your poor knowledge of simple concepts that are clear in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

If your answer is the same as mine and in line with the accepted definition, then you are a genocide supporting anti-semite and your views are invalid because you would be a racist on the level of a moron like UB.

Yeah, they support the state of Israel at the expense of those whose land it belongs you.

Also, so what if I support attacks on Israel, it's not a legitimate state, it's just a massive army occupying a tiny bit of land.
answer my question racist.

Just let her talk to me.

:cool:

:cool:

You obviously don't know UB well. He's a bit of a nut himself.

He believes that those who have religious views in conflict with his own (he said he has a religion, but won't say what it is) should be killed in mass genocide.

Tell her that you'll see whose right eventualy.

Good ... but wrath usually comes first, especially with a lack of sensibility.
:(

You obviously don't know UB well. He's a bit of a nut himself.

He believes that those who have religious views in conflict with his own (he said he has a religion, but won't say what it is) should be killed in mass genocide.

yeah but he wont kill her himself and after talking to him for an hour or so, mama might realize that there are worse things than not going to church.

You obviously don't know UB well. He's a bit of a nut himself.

Perhaps, but UB is right about a few things.
If the opportunity were to present itself where the OPr's parental influence were to engage with someone who doesn't share the same skewed philosophy, and the exact same literature were used to show just exactly HOW skewed the philosophy was, it might be of some use.
Happens here all the time.
Of course, it'd probably result in lack of internet privileges immediately following.

He believes that those who have religious views in conflict with his own (he said he has a religion, but won't say what it is) should be killed in mass genocide.
Where/when was that, exactly?
That kind of thing usually gets mod intervention of sorts.
Ask Deep Kimchi/Whispering Legs/Remote Observer.

Perhaps, but UB is right about a few things.
If the opportunity were to present itself where the OPr's parental influence were to engage with someone who doesn't share the same skewed philosophy, and the exact same literature were used to show just exactly HOW skewed the philosophy was, it might be of some use.
Happens here all the time.
Of course, it'd probably result in lack of internet privileges immediately following.Like I said in an earlier post, having her talk to an atheist or agnostic person is a good course. Just don't let it be a nut like UB who is worse than most zealots. Most Christian Zealots I have seen just want to convert those who share different beliefs. UB wants to kill them.

Where/when was that, exactly?
That kind of thing usually gets mod intervention of sorts.
Ask Deep Kimchi/Whispering Legs/Remote Observer.

It doesn't get mod intervention. RO is still able to post.

Unfortunately, Max Barry allows racist to run rampant here.

I didn't save the link to the post, but I'll try to fish it up.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12814204&postcount=58

HERE IT IS Read his follow up posts in the thread. He's truly a sick thing. (I doubt he has any humanity left in him)

okay kid, I read the whole thread.

I still stand by my original advice of try to be respectful and move out when you can.

I know that's not popular opinion, but it's what I think.

The thing is you have to decide what kind of person you want to be, are you the type who tells his mom to fuck off? or are you the type who tries to show her the tolerance you request? are you the type who can let people have their own beliefs and you stick to your own? or would you rather force you view on others?

are you the one who wants to be a contributer to discord in your family? or do you want to be the peace maker?

it's really up to you.

It won't kill you to read the Bible, it won't kill you to go to church, but then again it won't kill you to confront your mom and be an asshole either, although it might hurt your case that agnostics aren't evil.

There are some good things in the Bible, whether you read it as a holy book or if you just read it as a collection of stories and folk tales, one of the really good things that has helped me through life is to treat others how you would like to be treated, you would be surprised at how that can change their attitude towards you. I can't say that I am unbiased in this fight, as I am a mom, and if my kids were as disrespectful to me as the people in this thread have advised you to be......I would be hurt, and possibly angry.

Sometimes people suck. What your mom is doing (according to your story) sucks. It doesn't mean you have to suck too.

That's my 2 cents. It's probably tl;dr variety, but there it is.

Christian Zealots? You must construct additional pylons!

Keep reading his posts. He may not be the one who would commit it, but he would support the action. He would be a collaborator and just as guilty as those putting them in the gas chambers. Either way, he's a pretty messed up individual to hold such beliefs.

AP has once again performed his vanishing act the instant I challenged his beliefs. How shocking.:rolleyes:

It doesn't get mod intervention. RO is still able to post.
It did get mod intervention. RO's been spoken with several times about severity of post. That's where you might check the Mod Forum.
I wasn't saying intervention automatically = deat.


Unfortunately, Max Barry allows racist to run rampant here.
Well, as fucked up as racism is, it isn't a call to action persay. I'm not a mod though, so i'm not gonna make any further judgments on it.

I didn't save the link to the post, but I'll try to fish it up.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12814204&postcount=58
Thank you.

HERE IT IS Read his follow up posts in the thread. He's truly a sick thing. (I doubt he has any humanity left in him)
Uhm, not a straws thing, but it says:
I'd do nothing.
That doesn't exactly say that UB's gonna commit mass genocide.
o.0

That doesn't exactly say that UB's gonna commit mass genocide.
o.0

Keep reading his posts in that thread. He may not be the one who would commit it, but he would support the action. He would be a collaborator and just as guilty as those putting them in the gas chambers. Either way, he's pretty sick to hold such beliefs.

Christian Zealots? You must construct additional pylons!

hooray timewarp.

Keep reading his posts. He may not be the one who would commit it, but he would support the action. He would be a collaborator and just as guilty as those putting them in the gas chambers. Either way, he's a pretty messed up individual to hold such beliefs.

Well i can't agree with UB on mass genocide of anyone, really. But not just them, anyone who espouses the belief.

I've taken note though that i rarely agree with anyone about everything here, and i have to take the argument at the value presented to me. If anyone were to attempt to convince me that mass genocide is the only viable option, or the right one, i would have my own set of guidelines that pretty likely would prevent me from agreeing with that conclusion.
If, however, a person were to come to a conclusion about how *evidence* were to lead a person to consider value of a situation, then i'd consider it, of course.
That's why i posted that UB is right about a few things.

Also:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12814837&postcount=76
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12815909&postcount=90

There certainly is an interesting pattern to the nature of argument wherever UB has a post about something.

If someone swears ... SWEARS ... that they cannot support a group who isolates themselves in ideological bigotry/supremacy against any other, i suspect that it would seem reasonable as long as the concept of bigotry/supremacy were established with, say, evidence of said ideology.

Is this the case?

I'll give a example.
I give no - NO - ideological accomodation to *ANY* religious group whose intent is supremacy/bigotry/isolation as such that is a judgment against myself. Not one. If their intent is to convince me ... and in failing with me, OTHERS ... that i am an enemy, that i should "go to hell" or suffer on any level other than what i already bring upon myself, they also get, at least, no sympathy.
No accomodation, as such.

Perhaps UB's pov is a more extreme reaction in said line, based on more extreme experience.

Well, like it or not, they are recent immigrants, whereas I'm pretty damn sure my ancestors have lived in the UK for a good few centuries. However, that really isn't the point.
No, it isn't, since your ancestors had immigrated to that isle, as they had to Europe, all the way from the original habitat of humanity down in Africa.

Why should immigration be permitted if it is not economically necessary, given that no amount of left wing blather can disguise the fact it is socially and culturally divisive?
Because it's only socially and culturally divisive when people like you refuse to accept others. When people like you shun immigrants and shout at them to "go home" or whatever it is you anti-immigrant Brits do. And can you blame them for wanting to preserve their own culture when they move? It's what's familiar to them, after all...it's what they're comfortable with. They're moving so they can achieve a better life for themselves.

Cultures can and do integrate and assimilate over time...that's how our cultures up to this point have formed. Little tribes turn into larger tribes, into villages, cities, city-states, nations...and so on and so forth. Even if there's some clash initially, over time things settle.

If that were impossible, then the cultures we have today would simply not exist.

hooray timewarp.
Are you sure? Maybe I'm psychic...

I was in the shower if you must know.
Haha! I am! Proof!

AP has once again performed his vanishing act the instant I challenged his beliefs. How shocking.:rolleyes:

I was in the shower if you must know.

I was in the shower if you must know.

And I had been on a walk and then was cooking some soup for dinner, hence my own absense.

I suggest that you and IDF both calm down a wee bit and look at things from each other's point of view for a second. For instance, the Israelies--correctly or no--believe they deserved their new country after the devestation wrought to the Jewish population in World War II, and that the area once occupied by Palestine was fitting. The U.K. complied for some reason--not sure entirely why--and thus the whole thing started.

Thing is, all of the Arabian nations in the area have been repeatedly hostile towards Israel from its birth, be it to protect the unfairness of breaking up Palestine, or simply because they're not fond of Jews...whatever the case, the Israelies do definitely have a case for having the military force they do, and we can understand why they overreact when attacked...it's the case of the constantly frightened person allowing his survival instincts to take full control.

That doesn't justify their overreactions, however, and there is a lot of hatred on both sides that is making the situation such a huge problem. Frankly, I sympathize with both sides and I keep trying to come up with a reasonable solution, but one is hard coming...though that, of course, makes sense, given that if it were that easy to solve this problem wouldn't be going on for nigh seventy years.

Perhaps UB's pov is a more extreme reaction in said line, based on more extreme experience.

Ah, but there is no hell in Judaism and Jews don't go around trying to convert everyone so that can't be the case. Scientologists also don't seem to go around saying everyone is going to hell. He is just a racist with a stick up his ass.

I was in the shower if you must know.

And you have yet answered my question. Now go ahead and do it bigot.

And you have yet answered my question. Now go ahead and do it bigot.

IDF, you're not exactly helping your case by calling him a bigot over and over. All you'll get out of him this way is a defensive swipe back and it will accomplish nothing.

IDF, you're not exactly helping your case by calling him a bigot over and over. All you'll get out of him this way is a defensive swipe back and it will accomplish nothing.

Given his past posts about Jews, I think most neutral readers on this thread can conclude that he's a bigot.

Put up with it for 2 years then move out

Pretty much that.

Christians are failed people.

I thought bigots were failed people.

At what age can American parents legally kick their children out of the house?

Eighteen.

Given his past posts about Jews, I think most neutral readers on this thread can conclude that he's a bigot.

Then leave that to the readers to decide, rather than making your argument look poorer by constant insults.

I normally would use subtle irony in such a case - and was successful. My Ma used to buy me clothes which I did not like and which she thought were beautiful. She stopped when I did the same with her. So... tell her about Buddhism, ask her to meditate with you using Tibetian mantras, ask her to pray to the direction of Mecca with her, such things. Explain it by: "You want me to go to church so I do not land in hell, I do not want the same for you and thought it'd be better to hedge the risk."

Ah, but there is no hell in Judaism and Jews don't go around trying to convert everyone so that can't be the case. Scientologists also don't seem to go around saying everyone is going to hell. He is just a racist with a stick up his ass.So when did ideology qualify as race again?
Might as well be upset that people call people idiots.

Even if there isn't a hell in Judaism - shaol is the closest to it - nonetheless, a recurrent and important theme is the nature of being god's "chosen" people, which qualified to them an awful lot of early barbarism, made painstakingly clear throughout the OT.
Jews don't prosletyze, at least not so much, true.
Which, in case of this particular thread, being "Christian Zealots", it would appear that the offer UB made wasn't anti-semitic in any particular nature.

I would say that i made the connection between their post and the offer to confront, as it appeared, an irrational philosophical attitude towards treatment of other people, compounded in immorality by the fact that the person exhibiting the attitude is in a position of control and authority.

If i'm correct in that assertion, i stand by congratulating UB on it.

However, for the post that Kat provided (not in case of her being a mod, mind you), i can't stand behind UB's position.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13039414&postcount=136

Ok so i am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now but for awhile refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (ive never even had a detention) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to chuch it finally came to light that I wasn't a christian. Now I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'christian' and reading my bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.

You're 16. You don't have a clue. Print this off and look at it 10 years from now, or better yet, when you have a 16 year old child. This will look totally silly.

Keep up the good work as far as causing trouble. Play the game. Time will heals this problem one way or another.

Ah, but there is no hell in Judaism and Jews don't go around trying to convert everyone so that can't be the case. No, they only kill those of different faiths(aka Israeli Jews).


He is just a racist with a stick up his ass.
So is Muslim, and Christian a race too?

Why the hell are we even still using the word race? Damn it!

You're 16. You don't have a clue. Print this off and look at it 10 years from now, or better yet, when you have a 16 year old child. This will look totally silly.

Keep up the good work as far as causing trouble. Play the game. Time will heals this problem one way or another.
Quickest way to psychiatry, IMHO...

So when did ideology qualify as race again?
Might as well be upset that people call people idiots. Perhaps when Europeans began referring to Jews as a separate race. We probably don't qualify as one, but we have been considered one for centuries and it isn't a label we gave ourselves so deal with it.



Even if there isn't a hell in Judaism - shaol is the closest to it - nonetheless, a recurrent and important theme is the nature of being god's "chosen" people, which qualified to them an awful lot of early barbarism, made painstakingly clear throughout the OT.

The theme of being the chosen people is often misinterpreted by goyim such as yourself. We aren't chosen to be superior to others. We aren't chosen to go to heaven and get special gifts that other humans don't get. We are chosen to follow all of the Taryag Mitzvot. We are chosen to have a responsibility to obey the commandments, which we then don't impress on others as many religious leaders of various faiths (including a few very misguided power hungry Rabbis). And those Rabbis who do that are violating G-d's laws.


Jews don't prosletyze, at least not so much, true.
Which, in case of this particular thread, being "Christian Zealots", it would appear that the offer UB made wasn't anti-semitic in any particular nature.

His offer wasn't anti-Semitic. I was merely pointing out he's a horrible candidate for the task of talking to the OP's mother because UB is a bit unstable. Should he go onto a rant about the Jews or other group he hates, he will only be making the mother more firm in her own feelings about agnostics or atheists.


I would say that i made the connection between their post and the offer to confront, as it appeared, an irrational philosophical attitude towards treatment of other people, compounded in immorality by the fact that the person exhibiting the attitude is in a position of control and authority.

If i'm correct in that assertion, i stand by congratulating UB on it.

He would have the opposite effect he intended if he talked with her because UB doesn't have a shred of humanity in him. He would only reinforce the views that the OP's mother has. She would not want her son to be like him and then force him to do even more.

Perhaps she should talk to you. You at least are a sensible human being who has an understanding of how precious human life is. That is a value that UB doesn't possess.

No, they only kill those of different faiths(aka Israeli Jews).
They kill because they are in a war dumbass. It isn't killing those of another religion as many Muslims serve in the IDF and are in the Knesset. Go get yourself a clue.

I swear, there is something awful in the water south of I-80. (j/k)


So is Muslim, and Christian a race too?

Why the hell are we even still using the word race? Damn it!

Because some Europeans began referring to us as a race centuries ago. We didn't title ourselves as a race. Your ancestors did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_antisemitism

They kill because they are in a war dumbass. It isn't killing those of another religion as many Muslims serve in the IDF and are in the Knesset. Go get yourself a clue.
No need to flame. But then again, you can't help but to do so when some one makes a point against your people. They kills Muslim and Christian innocents in Palestine all the time, because of that so called "war"(hard to have a war when its rocks versus tanks).

Oh and by the way, there are Muslims that serve in the US military, there is a Muslim senator as well, but the doesn't make the war on terror any less a war on Islam, no does it?

Because some Europeans began referring to us as a race centuries ago. We didn't title ourselves as a race. Your ancestors did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_antisemitism

My ancestors. I'll go dig up my did cheerokee grandma and ask her all about how she made up race.

No need to flame. But then again, you can't help but to do so when some one makes a point against your people. They kills Muslim and Christian innocents in Palestine all the time, because of that so called "war"(hard to have a war when its rocks versus tanks).
What the hell do you expect Israel to do when the town of Sderot has been hit every single day since the pullout in 2005? There has not been ONE day that a rocket wasn't fired into Israel. The only reason no one is killed is that no most people left everything behind and left the town.

And you may say war against people armed with rocks, that isn't the case. Hamas now claims to have Katyushas and is well armed with RPGs and machine guns. Sure Israel has better weapons, but Israelis show restraint and try to limit collateral damage. Granted the can't do that 100% because Gaza is heavily urbanized and there is no way to prevent all collateral damage, but Israelis do put their soldiers lives at extra risk by putting some pretty strict ROE on them.

If Israel didn't show such restraint, there would be tens of thousands killed each year in Gaza and the West Bank. That is simply not the case.

BTW, when Israel has fought its Arab neighbors, they each had comparable equipment. The aircraft used by the Arabs in 67 and 73 were the exact ones downing US jets in Vietnam. The MiG-25 Foxbats used in 82 were faster than any of the fighters Israel had. It is believed that the exact same model MiG downed a US fighter in 91. Israel was using inferior equipment when it came to 48. They also had less of it.

Sure there are cases though of some stupid Israeli soldier intentionally killing civilians. Those people are in the minority and their actions remain shameful and are crimes against G-d. The fact remains though that they are few and far between. If Israel were truly a racist state, then Kahanists wouldn't be banned from the Knesset.

Oh and by the way, there are Muslims that serve in the US military, there is a Muslim senator as well, but the doesn't make the war on terror any less a war on Islam, no does it? If it were a true war on Islam, we wouldn't be so nice to Saudi Arabia and most of the Gulf States. We also would've nuked Pakistan by now or something along those lines. Go on keep spouting your bullshit. You don't have a leg to stand on here.


My ancestors. I'll go dig up my did cheerokee grandma and ask her all about how she made up race.
Fine I didn't word that well in making my point. The fact remains that we are labeled a race because some European leaders did so centuries ago.

And you have yet answered my question. Now go ahead and do it bigot.

I am sorry friend, I have forgotten what it was.

Perhaps when Europeans began referring to Jews as a separate race. We probably don't qualify as one, but we have been considered one for centuries and it isn't a label we gave ourselves so deal with it.



The theme of being the chosen people is often misinterpreted by goyim such as yourself. We aren't chosen to be superior to others. We aren't chosen to go to heaven and get special gifts that other humans don't get. We are chosen to follow all of the Taryag Mitzvot. We are chosen to have a responsibility to obey the commandments, which we then don't impress on others as many religious leaders of various faiths (including a few very misguided power hungry Rabbis). And those Rabbis who do that are violating G-d's laws.


His offer wasn't anti-Semitic. I was merely pointing out he's a horrible candidate for the task of talking to the OP's mother because UB is a bit unstable. Should he go onto a rant about the Jews or other group he hates, he will only be making the mother more firm in her own feelings about agnostics or atheists.



He would have the opposite effect he intended if he talked with her because UB doesn't have a shred of humanity in him. He would only reinforce the views that the OP's mother has. She would not want her son to be like him and then force him to do even more.

Perhaps she should talk to you. You at least are a sensible human being who has an understanding of how precious human life is. That is a value that UB doesn't possess.

This is a fairly graceful response, thank you.
*bows*

I don't personally think it's all lost for UB, but then, i haven't argued with them about anything.
At that, i still don't necessarily truly know what's in their heart.

I am sorry friend, I have forgotten what it was.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13039124&postcount=110

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13039124&postcount=110

Well firstly they cannot do it and keep it quiet these days, that's not to say that the Zionists wouldn't, of course they would if they could get away with it, but unfortunately it isn't genuine national legitimacy that holds 'Israel' in power, it's their supply of arms from the US, it's a militaristic country and it can't afford to loose the one thing that holds them in power. This is not to say that they can get away with persecution, bombings and general oppression of the Palestinians, most of it done by the 3rd party messianic nut colonists in the West Bank, but also the IDF occasionally joins in with a checkpoint beating or stands by while colonists beat up and mutilate Palestinians, foreign journalists are also known to have been targeted by the colonists and sat upon, attacked, humiliated and harassed etc, even beaten, yet the Israeli government ignores it's international treaties and continues to build the colonies in the West Bank, continuing the occupation and colonization of Palestinian land, for this reason all of Israel is a legitimate target.

Think about it for a second, basically the whole country is in the military at one point, and it's the voluntary factor that makes the whole country a legitimate target. These people, especially the colonists, have the option of not living in the colonies or indeed not living in the country, we all know Israel is illegitimate but yet these ultranationalists, religious fanatics and collaborators continue to live in Israel in spite of these things, Israel is basically one giant barracks with fortified walls around it, it is not a country with civilians, they all collaborate with the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian nation.

Israel doesn't deserve diplomatic recognition, it would be better for the region and the world if the population just dispersed into nations across the world. Of course this isn't going to happen precisely because the people of Israel (in particular the colonists) live there because they believe in that nationalist Zionist diatribe.

So to answer your question, me supporting the killing of the 'Israeli' population is not the point, the 'Israelis' have the option to leave to land to the owners, the Palestinians, and stop the military occupation, they can just disperse to other countries like the US, it's not a lot of people to deal with after all, this would solve much of the ME problems. But if the Zionist military occupation refuses to disband, their is no other way, they of course would rather die for their perverted national racial military state than give what already belongs to the Palestinians back.

Christianity should be something chosen and not forced on anyone. If you don't wan't to goI might want my kid to go to church, but trying to force them to do so is just stupid and pointless. The parents were clearly in the wrong. If this is a very common practice at all, no wonder we have so many atheists and agnostics about.

Oh for the love of fuck...would you just stop it already? You're giving atheists like me who want to help people get past the need for faith a bad name because unlike me, you're being horribly confrontational and offensive about it.And? Are you afraid of confrontation?
The point is that I have already given up on believers of the abrahamic religions. I consider it a waste of time trying to enlighten these cave-dweller mindsets. By now I just want them to drop off the planet. Humanity has suffered enough from this organized collective ignorance, but some unteachable folks still adhere to this pretty obvious edifice of lies. The abrahamic religions, especially Christianity has cost mankind at least 1000 years of human cultural and technical evolution. Following a fabricated jewish god is inacceptible behavior and unworthy of human intellect. The future will be dark if this ideology remains. Well, at least in Europe most young people have abandoned that crap, so there is a faint hope.

Christianity should be something chosen and not forced on anyone.The stop baptizing defenseless infants and sucking them into the christian ideology.

The abrahamic religions, especially Christianity has cost mankind at least 1000 years of human cultural and technical evolution. Do you have anything to substantiate that claim?

The "dark ages" weren't half as dark as the people from the renaissance made it out to be. Plenty of advances in science and technology were made, and any problems of the era would have most likely still been there without christianity. One thing that would be missing without christianity is a class of people that had nothing else to do but read and copy books; you had to keep those monks busy with something.

And? Are you afraid of confrontation?

No, but I do seek to avoid it unless there is no alternative.


The point is that I have already given up on believers of the abrahamic religions. I consider it a waste of time trying to enlighten these cave-dweller mindsets. By now I just want them to drop off the planet. Humanity has suffered enough from this organized collective ignorance, but some unteachable folks still adhere to this pretty obvious edifice of lies. The abrahamic religions, especially Christianity has cost mankind at least 1000 years of human cultural and technical evolution. Following a fabricated jewish god is inacceptible behavior and unworthy of human intellect. The future will be dark if this ideology remains. Well, at least in Europe most young people have abandoned that crap, so there is a faint hope.
.

Look, I agree that irrationality and believing based on no evidence whatsoever, especially when you continue to believe in the face of contradictory evidence, is pretty damned stupid. I also agree that the world's religions have caused a lot of problems.

But acting like a gigantic asshole spewing diarrheal vitriol everywhere about it will not solve anything. If you confront someone, if you back them into a corner, you provoke a fighting response. In essence, all you do is strengthen their beliefs and their certainty that you are wrong.

If you really want to change people and help eliminate this sort of irrational behavior, you should be kinder, be gentler, and above all considerate, as well as constantly reminding yourself of the fact that things will not change immediately and trying to jump to an immediate change will only result in destroying any progress you have made.

okay kid, I read the whole thread.

I still stand by my original advice of try to be respectful and move out when you can.

I know that's not popular opinion, but it's what I think.

The thing is you have to decide what kind of person you want to be, are you the type who tells his mom to fuck off? or are you the type who tries to show her the tolerance you request? are you the type who can let people have their own beliefs and you stick to your own? or would you rather force you view on others?

are you the one who wants to be a contributer to discord in your family? or do you want to be the peace maker?

it's really up to you.

It won't kill you to read the Bible, it won't kill you to go to church, but then again it won't kill you to confront your mom and be an asshole either, although it might hurt your case that agnostics aren't evil.

There are some good things in the Bible, whether you read it as a holy book or if you just read it as a collection of stories and folk tales, one of the really good things that has helped me through life is to treat others how you would like to be treated, you would be surprised at how that can change their attitude towards you. I can't say that I am unbiased in this fight, as I am a mom, and if my kids were as disrespectful to me as the people in this thread have advised you to be......I would be hurt, and possibly angry.

Sometimes people suck. What your mom is doing (according to your story) sucks. It doesn't mean you have to suck too.

That's my 2 cents. It's probably tl;dr variety, but there it is.

Personally, I think respect for parents is an overrated virtue. To me, respect is either mutual or non-existent.

While I personally never was forced to church by my mother (well, after the age of about 6 or 7, I think. Before that we had regular fights each Sunday, with tantrums, tears, screaming, door-slamming and lots of gnashing of teeth. My parents finally were too embarrased to bring me and my brothers to church, and stopped going themselves soon after), I was forced to do other things, such as spending 5 years of my life learning (or rather pretending to learn) Latin. Contrary to popular myth, parents don't always know what's best for their children. They tend to believe that what they would have considered best for themselves will work for their offspring as well. Well, it doesn't.

What parents like the OP's mother desperately need to learn is that respect is earned, not bought. Free meals and all that do sound great, but they are no reason to try and force a certain way of life on children. Children aren't property, they are individuals. And if a parent is not capable of making the benefit of something they ask of their children clear in calm discussion, I personally think they've failed as parents.

Yes, he could hold the moral high ground and be the peacekeeper and do what his mother says. However, nobody will benefit from this. He will hate every moment of it, and his mother will have got away with forcing her teenage son to do something simply because she said so. Not a good situation.
I would go with the advise of following the letter, not the intention. Go to church, but don't do anything in church. Look at the bible when forced, but don't read if you don't want to. She can indeed force you physically, but she can't force anything on you mentally.
I would do this hoping that passive resistance like this might in turn force her to think, and possibly open up an honest debatte, in which positions can be presented and maybe a solution be found.

And? Are you afraid of confrontation?
No, you're just a wanker.

I'll be honest, you're not doing anything good for us atheists. You just sit about insulting people on the grounds of their faith which, as you should know, is just about as sensible as our own.

There is no proof that God, in whatever form you take that to be, or even many gods, exists. There is also no proof that there is no supreme force.

Well firstly they cannot do it and keep it quiet these days, that's not to say that the Zionists wouldn't, of course they would if they could get away with it, but unfortunately it isn't genuine national legitimacy that holds 'Israel' in power, it's their supply of arms from the US, it's a militaristic country and it can't afford to loose the one thing that holds them in power.
1) You're being ludicrous, I don't think anyone in Israel with any kind of support in government wants to kill all of the people in Palestine. The party with the closest viewpoint (I'm terrible with names, sorry) was kicked out of the Knesset.

2)IMI makes almost all of the weapons for the IDF nowadays, actually. They used to be propped up by American weapon donations, but that's not so present today.
This is not to say that they can get away with persecution, bombings and general oppression of the Palestinians, most of it done by the 3rd party messianic nut colonists in the West Bank, but also the IDF occasionally joins in with a checkpoint beating or stands by while colonists beat up and mutilate Palestinians, foreign journalists are also known to have been targeted by the colonists and sat upon, attacked, humiliated and harassed etc, even beaten
And in almost every instance, there has been an inquiry and people go down for it. The IDF is actually quite good at sorting this kind of thing out, because it knows that if it doesn't, it makes Israel look like a state which does nothing but wrong, and in a position where everyone around you already hates you, that's not a good plan.
yet the Israeli government ignores it's international treaties and continues to build the colonies in the West Bank, continuing the occupation and colonization of Palestinian land, for this reason all of Israel is a legitimate target.
The colonies are a pretty valid target, true.

Israel within its own borders? Not really.
Think about it for a second, basically the whole country is in the military at one point, and it's the voluntary factor that makes the whole country a legitimate target.
Practically everyone is conscripted, unless they have a really good reason not to be. So there you go.
These people, especially the colonists, have the option of not living in the colonies or indeed not living in the country
Leaving a land you've known all your life, and lived with people you've grown up with and identify with due to your religion and (some would say) race?

What a really awesome option that is...
we all know Israel is illegitimate
No, the kind of people who pretend that the USSR was a land of milk and honey 'know' that Israel is illegitimate. Most other people grudgingly (some wilfully) accept that it's there and that's how it is.
but yet these ultranationalists, religious fanatics and collaborators continue to live in Israel in spite of these things[QUOTE]
What would you call Hamas other than ultranationalists, religious fanatics and collaborators?

You realise that Israel lets Hamas preach what it does. If it didn't, all it would take is the IDF's planes simply carpet bombing the whole of the Gaza strip.

But they know that a) that's just not cricket and b) it wouldn't really help anything.
[QUOTE]Israel is basically one giant barracks with fortified walls around it
Erm, actually incorrect.
it is not a country with civilians
Not true.
they all collaborate with the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian nation.
Apart from the protesters, those who speak up about it in the Knesset, etc. etc.

To be honest, that statement's about as moronic as "all Americans are in favour of the Iraq war" or "all Laotians really like communism". The actions of the government don't necessarily show the opinions of the general public.
Israel doesn't deserve diplomatic recognition
Yes, it really does, on the grounds that it's always on the edge of being invaded, and hence needs backing up from time to time.
it would be better for the region and the world if the population just dispersed into nations across the world.
Yeah. Which ones?

What about the ones that lived in Palestine before the second world war?

Could they stay, or would you ship them off?
Of course this isn't going to happen precisely because the people of Israel (in particular the colonists) live there because they believe in that nationalist Zionist diatribe.
Or because they were born there and don't want to leave the state they were born in, or because they moved there to seek spiritual solace, even if they don't like the militarism of the state.
So to answer your question, me supporting the killing of the 'Israeli' population is not the point
I'll take that as a veiled "yes, I do support it", then. You disgust me wholly.
the 'Israelis' have the option to leave to land to the owners, the Palestinians
What about the Israelis who bought their land from Palestinian farmers?

Do they lose it despite it legally being theirs?
and stop the military occupation, they can just disperse to other countries like the US, it's not a lot of people to deal with after all
It's a pretty significant amount of people, to be honest.
this would solve much of the ME problems.
No, it wouldn't.

The problem with the Middle East stems from the fact that there are a few extremely rich people with a great deal of power, and control over vast tracts of land, including the people under them.

To placate these people, who might otherwise rise up against their leaders, the people in charge fund extremist Imams, so that the hatred of the general public is directed at Israel.

If Israel went, someone else would simply be the target, probably Lebanon due to its liberal values, or perhaps the Kurdish population.

What needs to happen to sort out the problems with the Middle East is some kind of amazing miracle, because there isn't an end in sight for a very, very long time, due to things being how they are in that area.
But if the Zionist military occupation refuses to disband, their is no other way, they of course would rather die for their perverted national racial military state than give what already belongs to the Palestinians back.
You honestly think there's no way to work the situation out than killing everyone unless the IDF and indeed the whole state of Israel disbands?

Are you joking?

I wouldn't bother trying to talk to UB about Christianity, or the Bible, or Judaism. Or anything to do with religion, generally. It's likely to be a distinct waste of your time.

What about pastafarianism? Surely not even UB could turn down the greatness that is the great noodliness. :p

What about pastafarianism? Surely not even UB could turn down the greatness that is the great noodliness. :p

I'm sure he probably insults it by eating cheap thirteen cent Raman noodles or something.

I'm sure he probably insults it by eating cheap thirteen cent Raman noodles or something.

All noodles are equal in the meatball-like eyes of The Great Noodly One.

All noodles are equal in the meatball-like eyes of The Great Noodly One.
And here I was thinking he demanded that one eat only high quality noodles.

Yootopia, I know it's hard for you to accept this is your perfect world view, but sometimes when you fighting for a cause like to free your land from occupation, you have to do things you normally wouldn't. So yes that means killing people, even civilians, to force the occupying into withdrawing. I know this is ugly given the perfect world you live in, where everyone is happy and likes each other, but the reality for the Palestinians is that they live with the daily consequence of the occupation, they pay it - not you in your home. They wouldn't fight if there wasn't a reason.

And here I was thinking he demanded that one eat only high quality noodles.

Well, not all noodles have the same nutritional value.

And? Are you afraid of confrontation?

Do you get off on confrontation?

Yootopia, I know it's hard for you to accept this is your perfect world view, but sometimes when you fighting for a cause like to free your land from occupation, you have to do things you normally wouldn't. So yes that means killing people, even civilians, to force the occupying into withdrawing. I know this is ugly given the perfect world you live in, where everyone is happy and likes each other, but the reality for the Palestinians is that they live with the daily consequence of the occupation, they pay it - not you in your home. They wouldn't fight if there wasn't a reason.

There is no occupation in the Gaza Strip. There hasn't been one there for two years. Most of the violence the last two years has been where? The Gaza Strip.

I'm sorry, but the occupation can't serve as an excuse when the people in the West Bank have been relatively quiet while the Gaza Strip has become a shit hole worse than Detroit in the wake of Israel ending the occupation there.

If occupation is the cause of the violence, then what caused the Arab riots and pogroms of the 20s and 30s when there was no occupation by any Jews?

You are just a pathetic case. I won't bother refuting the main points of your response since Yootopia covered most of what I was going to say, but I will add a bit to what he said.

Israeli civilians aren't legit targets despite conscription. Reservists who are not on active duty are considered civilians by the Geneva Convention. They are given all of the protections applying to normal civilians. That of course changes when they put the uniform on, but so long as they aren't in uniform on active duty, they are legally civilians.

Israel isn't dependent on the US. US aid to Israel represents less than 1% of Israel's total GDP so it is a pretty small amount. As for the military, most of the equipment bought from the US is bought with loans which Israel pays back to the US. The US has sold weapons to Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and even Iran (F-14 deal anyone?) with similar deals so there isn't anything special about Israel's situation there.

Of course facts won't stop a foaming at the mouth anti-Semite such as yourself. But then again, if you understood facts, you wouldn't call the USSR a paradise and say that East Germans should thank the USSR for building the Berlin Wall thus protecting them from the evils of Capitalism.

Do you get off on confrontation?

He gets off on hoping for genocide of ethnic groups he hates.

OK, so I am 16 and living with a zealot. My mom is a nutter. She has known me to be an agnostic for a year now, but for a while refused to accept it on the grounds that I was not acting like a normal 'evil' kid. (I've never even had a detention.) So this morning when I wanted to stay home and relax instead of going to church, it finally came to light that I wasn't a Christian. Now, I am restricted from doing anything that isn't 'Christian,' and reading my Bible and going to church are a requirement for even living here. If I was dressed, I would have said fuck her and left, but for now I am asking for advice.

I'm an atheist too. Well, I don't know the precise support situation (ability to get jobs, move in with a girlfriend, et cetera) but legally, your mom can't throw you out until you're 18.

If you qualify, I'd advise joining the military when 18 rolls around. It's one of the few decent jobs open to recent high-school graduates. (Hopefully we'll be out of Iraq by then.) Plus it pays for your college education.

If you don't qualify, social services can help you find a job and training if your high school doesn't provide some form of vocational training. You don't want to turn 18 without some kind of job training - if your situation is as critical as it seems, you'll be out of the house at 18 with no roof over your head.

Until you're 18, there is only so much your mom can do to you. You can make her life miserable, and given her intention to forcibly convert you, that seems like a good idea. Or you can bend over and take it up the ass from a religious fanatic and say good-bye to any self-esteem you have.

Personally, I think respect for parents is an overrated virtue. To me, respect is either mutual or non-existent.


So a general should take advice from a private.

A child is a child. A child does not have the experience and wisdom of age.

A parent was 16 and understands that age. A parent has (hopefully) lived more than twice that many years and experienced the troubles and joys of those years.

Respect is not mutual. Respect is earned or lost every day. A parent has a lifetime to earn (or lose) and stockpile respect. A child of 16 has just began to even think about what respect might be. What little respect they deserve comes from studying hard and keeping their a-- out of trouble. The parent has had to do that for twice as long and built a family on top of it (and that is far more than a 16 year old can comprehend.)

Remember what you said today and you will know how green you were 10 years from now.

So a general should take advice from a private.

A child is a child. A child does not have the experience and wisdom of age.

A parent was 16 and understands that age. A parent has (hopefully) lived more than twice that many years and experienced the troubles and joys of those years.

Respect is not mutual. Respect is earned or lost every day. A parent has a lifetime to earn (or lose) and stockpile respect. A child of 16 has just began to even think about what respect might be. What little respect they deserve comes from studying hard and keeping their a-- out of trouble. The parent has had to do that for twice as long and built a family on top of it (and that is far more than a 16 year old can comprehend.)

Remember what you said today and you will know how green you were 10 years from now.
Even if he finds he just cannot respect his mom on any level, I don't see how being an ass is a good strategy. He has maybe 2 more years of putting up with her, surely he can do this and not be a jerk, if only because it will make his life a bit easier?

I don't see where direct confrontation will help him achieve anything.

Even if he finds he just cannot respect his mom on any level, I don't see how being an ass is a good strategy. He has maybe 2 more years of putting up with her, surely he can do this and not be a jerk, if only because it will make his life a bit easier?

I don't see where direct confrontation will help him achieve anything.

his mother is spoiled. she has no idea how good she has it that her son is just agnostic. because he is a good boy who never gives her serious trouble she thinks that its OK to try to control him until he can escape her home.

i dont see anything wrong with letting her know that it could be much worse and that she needs to let her son find his own way.

honestly, he should give her the impression that he is on his way to a serious drug problem. it will put things into perspective for her.

So a general should take advice from a private.

A general who shows no respect for his troops should not expect to receive any from them.


A child is a child. A child does not have the experience and wisdom of age.

And an adult does, which is precisely why a parent should be held to a HIGHER standard of conduct than their child.


Respect is not mutual. Respect is earned or lost every day.

Ideally, respect between a parent and child should be mutual. In my experience, if either party does not respect the other, the relationship will not be a successful one.


A parent has a lifetime to earn (or lose) and stockpile respect. A child of 16 has just began to even think about what respect might be. What little respect they deserve comes from studying hard and keeping their a-- out of trouble.

A parent who views their child in such a condescending manner should not be remotely surprised when their child fails to show respect in return. I wouldn't have a whit of respect for my parents if they had treated me in the manner you suggest.

As you yourself pointed out, a parent should (ideally) be an adult who was at one time a 16 year old themselves. If said parent actually thinks that looking down on their child and belittling their child's intelligence will be productive, then the kid is absolutely right to ignore that parent. That kid should find more intelligent and rational adult role models as soon as possible.


The parent has had to do that for twice as long and built a family on top of it (and that is far more than a 16 year old can comprehend.)

Again with the hilarious underestimation of the brain of a 16 year old.

If you choose to view your children as simple-minded fools, you had better not bitch when they act like simple-minded fools.


Remember what you said today and you will know how green you were 10 years from now.
It's lines like that which make young people reflexively tune you out.

I can look back a decade and say, with absolute certainty, that I am a better person for having ignored adults who looked down on me. Any adult who thinks they are entitled to my obedience or respect without doing a thing to earn it is a person who can be safely categorized into the "jackass" pile.

One of the most important lessons I have learned is that old =/= wise, and that respect must be earned no matter who you are. It's not a good idea to let yourself be cowed by perceived authority, and it's absolutely not a good idea to assume that an adult automatically knows best by virtue of being older.

his mother is spoiled. she has no idea how good she has it that her son is just agnostic. because he is a good boy who never gives her serious trouble she thinks that its OK to try to control him until he can escape her home.

i dont see anything wrong with letting her know that it could be much worse and that she needs to let her son find his own way.

honestly, he should give her the impression that he is on his way to a serious drug problem. it will put things into perspective for her.

I am not saying his mother is right at all. His mother might be the most horrible mother in history (which I doubt since she would be competing against mine), all I am saying is that when you stack up the pros and cons, I don't really see to many good things about forcing confrontation with someone who is already hostile. He could tell her to fuck off and stomp out of the room like a child, if that's the type of person he wants to be, I just don't see it gaining him any points, nor getting him the thing he most wants, which is freedom. Sometimes to win you have to play the game.

A 16 year old child making a declaration like this to his parents is an attempt to control his parents, all it reveals is a weak mind. Anyone can be an Agnostic, it doesn't require being an ingrate to those who pay your way through the world.

Confronting one's parents like that only reveals a scared little child who is jealous of the illusion of power he believes adults have. Just like the child the parents have opinions, right and wrong. However the parents, not the children have the responsibility for the child and children had better learn their place in the world before they try attempt to decide what rights they posses and which their parents do.

You will be much happier if you just endure it.

I am seriously opposed to making people 16 years or younger participate in any kind of religious observation except the most shallow social or holiday events. This is because it is easier to indoctrinate young minds, and that leads to a shallow form of religious thinking both in the young'uns and their older "teachers." I believe religion should be like alcohol -- at 16, you're too young for it.

Having said that, even though I disapprove of the OP's mother's actions, they do not rise to the level of abuse under US law (assuming this is happening in the the US), so I do not think any governmental authority will side with the child against being made to go to church with his family. Rather, making a confrontation out of it may be held against the child, at worst. At best, it will be chalked up to adolescent nonsense and be ignored as he is marched off to church.

My advice on this would be "least said, soonest mended." I strongly urge the OP to submit to his mother's authority part-way. Make it clear that you are doing so unwillingly. Make it clear to the priest/minister too, but only if you are asked directly. Do not invite the anger of your mother, who has the power to make your life even more unpleasant, by telling other people in church that you don't believe. Just say, if asked, that you are there because your parents make you go. Leave it at that. If they go on and on about Jesus etc, find a way to politely walk away from them. Remember, you are in the enemy camp, so to speak.

On your own time, associate with your friends and do your thing on your own terms. Privately. You will find that 90% of a teenager's life is private -- i.e. not shared with parents. It's normal because you are building your own way of living, even while you must still live under their way of living. Develop your lifestyle on your own and implement it when you move out. If you have not burned your bridges with your parents, then you'll be able to share it with them later.

... Remember what you said today and you will know how green you were 10 years from now.
Firstly, from what I understand, Cabra West is older and considerably more experienced than you seem to think she is.

Secondly, on the nature of respect. While I agree that it is not necessarily mutual, respect is an acknowledgement made by the observer, not a property somehow of the object individual. It is not a bank balance of karma that you can control; you can't expect to be able to top it up by performing good deeds and making sacrificial payments and have others use this as a basis for interaction. It is others that decide whether to give or withhold respect based on how they perceive you, and if you feel that you are not being given the respect you deserve then it is because there is a discrepancy between how others see you and how you see yourself. This discrepancy is not always the fault of other people, and regardless of the years of experience we may have, we make mistakes too, such as failing to acknowledge the importance of others in our lives in the way we relate to them.

If we deny respect to our children then our relationship with them will probably (arguably correctly) be interpreted as a largely selfish and dispassionate one, just as we would interpret our own kids' disrespect towards us. Hence, I think, why respect is far more effective (and also far easier to teach) when it is mutual.

Why not go along to church, but let your mother know that you are only doing it so that she doesn't look bad to the other churchgoers?

I don't know if that's a good idea, since I've never been in the situation, but maybe it would make you look both caring and intelligent?

And? Are you afraid of confrontation?

Normally I do not enjoy confrontation unless I can tell someone off for being a dickhole and I guess this may be one of those instances.

In fact, you're really pissing me off to the extent that I would sooner defend religion than Atheism if I see you trying to reason with a 'religious' person because you're insult to Atheism. You're a fundamentalist. You're to Atheism what zealots are to religion.

I cannot tolerate it any more. I find you to be far more hostile than most Christian posters here when they're defending their faith.

The point is that I have already given up on believers of the abrahamic religions. I consider it a waste of time trying to enlighten these cave-dweller mindsets.

And some how non-Abrahamic religions are more enlightened?

By now I just want them to drop off the planet.

Frankly we'd be better off if we just got rid of extremists and zealots from both ends of the spectrum.

Humanity has suffered enough from this organized collective ignorance, but some unteachable folks still adhere to this pretty obvious edifice of lies.

I won't dispute that religion has caused much suffering but if religion ceased to exist we would still find a way to torment and cause suffering unto our fellow humans because let's face it, humans are assholes even if we won't admit it.

The abrahamic religions, especially Christianity has cost mankind at least 1000 years of human cultural and technical evolution.

Religion hindered social and technical evolution more than cultural.

In some ways, it did help our cultural development; look at the art and architecture from the Renaissance; the Dutch Golden Age etc. The cathedrals built in Medieval Europe that are still preserved today are monolithic works of art.

Following a fabricated jewish god is inacceptible behavior and unworthy of human intellect.

Oh but following a bunch of cranky Greek gods is worthy of human intellect? :rolleyes: Or what about that assortment of crazy Norse Gods? Or....

Or are the polytheistic followers exempt from this level of contempt?

The future will be dark if this ideology remains.

Any form of fundamentalism is dangerous for the future of humanity.

The stop baptizing defenseless infants and sucking them into the christian ideology.

What about slicing the foreskin off the penises of helpless males as per Jewish tradition and sucking the children into the Jewish ideology? Or... <insert stereotypical comment about some religion followed by a snappy comment>...?

So a general should take advice from a private.

Well, it depends on what the advice is. Rank doesn't automatically mean that someone knows more than those below them.

A child is a child. A child does not have the experience and wisdom of age.

There are plenty of adults on whom we could bestow that honour.

A parent was 16 and understands that age. A parent has (hopefully) lived more than twice that many years and experienced the troubles and joys of those years.

Yes a parent may understand that age but the parent may have experienced that age differently than their child so they may not understand their child's experience.

Respect is not mutual. Respect is earned or lost every day.

I will grant you that.

A parent has a lifetime to earn (or lose) and stockpile respect.

Yes and I can attest that my father has earned my respect far more than my mother has.

A child of 16 has just began to even think about what respect might be.

The parents are responsible for teaching the child respect and one such way of indoctrinating respect is to show it through leading by example, whether it is towards others or to the child themself.

A child should begin to think about respect from a young age. A responsible parent will ensure that a child is thinking about respect before they begin to think about doing something on their own for the first time.

What little respect they deserve comes from studying hard and keeping their a-- out of trouble.

Respect comes from more than that. Respect comes from doing what is right; what makes you a better person. Getting into trouble is no reason to revoke that respect because the child has not disrespected the parent (unless the action was against the parent).

No one ever deserved respect. People; parents and children have to earn it.

Just because you're someone's parent doesn't mean you are automatically granted that respect.

I would say that for a long time I was courteous to my mother but I couldn't respect her. Courtesy is something that should be expected even if there is no respect.

Remember what you said today and you will know how green you were 10 years from now.

I know I was green even a day ago but that doesn't mean I lack my own form of wisdom. Each day's worth of experience contributes to one's wisdom.

Now as for the OP...

You will have to face your mother one day on this. Whether it is sooner or later it doesn't matter. It's all in how you approach this because even once you've moved out, she may still pressure you to read the Bible and attend church. She may try and shame you by using family and saying, "what will they think if you don't go to church?"

Parents often hate when a child makes their own decision about the path they want to take.

I made my beliefs clear early on with my mother. In fact, I was 16 when I did it.

When I turned 19 my step-father sat down with me and over a glass of beer asked me why I believed what I did.

My mother who initially reacted badly when I announced that I was an Atheist and that I refused to join her when she wanted to go to the cathedral, asked me for a clear explanation this year. Surprisingly she didn't give me a hard time about it. She has come to believe religion is stupid but she does believe in a superior being.

My father has known for a long time and didn't ask me because we had talked openly about it.

My husband on the other hand only in the last year told his parents about how he feels about religion and his beliefs. He refused to talk about it with them because he maintained that it would break his mother's heart. But by not talking to them he submitted to doing what he would call "Jewish crap" that I know he didn't want to do and doing it contributed to him being unhappy.

You have to make the choice, whether it is sooner or later.

It may cause trouble but if your mother truly loves you she won't try and be the root cause of your unhappiness. Explain to her in a reasonable, calm manner why you believe as you do. Don't sink to her level if she reacts badly.

There is nothing that says you can't express your beliefs while still respecting your parents.

A parent who puts their god before their child has failed their child.

According to the Bible, any parent who puts their child ahead of God has failed God. The same is true if they put their parents, siblings, spouses, goats, pet chichillas, or their job, their volunteer work, or their internet poker addiction before God.

And I'm not quoting some OT jibber-jabber buried in the middle of fucking Leviticus, either. I'm quoting the Gospels, the Holy Grail of the Christian Bible. And I'm quoting JHC himself, who stated, in some oddly-worded manner, that one's love for God must be so great that it makes love for anything on Earth seem like pure hatred.

And before you call me a fundie, just remember that I didn't write this stuff. Personally, my views on religion and God and stuff have succeeded in blowing even my own mind on several occasions. I'm no fundie. Taking the Bible literally is...yes, what's the word...insane. That's a topic for another day.

However, in this case...lots of kids are raised by religious fundamentalists, tyrants, and whack jobs. Frankly, being raised by the All-American, middle-of-the-road parent would seem just a bit boring, to be honest. I'd rather put up with all the idiosyncracies and stuff from slightly odd parents than be boring as hell.

And then, once you're on your own, cut your parents off completely. They won't know what hit them.

And I'm quoting JHC himself, who stated, in some oddly-worded manner, that one's love for God must be so great that it makes love for anything on Earth seem like pure hatred.
*Feels compelled to make a point on this*

One way of understanding the thing you're talking about is in the light of the theology of "There is nothing that is not God". There's a little story in the gospel (Matt 25, among others) that suggests that to serve our fellow man is to serve God and vice-versa. As long as it is understood that our children are also constituent parts of the divine entity, there is no opposition between loving our children above all else and having a love of God that exceeds the love that we give to our children, because God is not merely part of the "else", but includes our children as well.

*Feels compelled to make a point on this*

One way of understanding the thing you're talking about is in the light of the theology of "There is nothing that is not God". There's a little story in the gospel (Matt 25, among others) that suggests that to serve our fellow man is to serve God and vice-versa. As long as it is understood that our children are also constituent parts of the divine entity, there is no opposition between loving our children above all else and having a love of God that exceeds the love that we give to our children, because God is not merely part of the "else", but includes our children as well.

Well, of course it's all in the interpretation, as is all religion, but it's very easy to take the things Jesus said and turn them into, "Serving God is the absolute only thing that matters. No material possessions, no family, no friends...if God says to pour acid in your children's eyes and to torture puppies for the rest of your life, then damnit, you do it no questions asked." That's not to say that's what Jesus meant - especially when you factor in that Jesus didn't exactly speak the King's English and his message has been filtered through a few different translations - but it's easy to say that the message of "God's #1 and everything else is a distant second to God" cannot be easily misconstrued as "Nothing matters but God."

And frankly, the fundie folks are the likeliest to make that leap.

Truth be told, there really isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Trying to explain to her your stance on religion will only result in further restriction or a summer spent at a bible study camp somewhere. You could always act out, as was previously suggested, but again... you're only asking for her to bring down the hammer even harder. My suggestion... suck it up. Is it really that bad? Hell, if reading the bible and going to church covered my room and board... I'd be dawning my Sunday best as we speak. Life doesn't play into your belief system. Complaining about it via blog or soapbox won't fix it. You'll only discover there's an endless sea of people wanting to get thier two cents in and all you're left with is a thread of useless posts. All you can really do is learn to not be so butt-hurt when those beliefs get trampled.

If getting it off your chest seems to help... by all means gripe away. I just wouldn't expect the clear cut solution. Life has a tendency to shit in your Cheerios on a daily basis. You just need to develope a thicker skin.

I dunno how bad Christian camp was for me though. There's not much your parents can do to you that you don't want done. Grounded? Go out while they're not looking, going to a christian camp for the summer, smoke some fags behind the Reverend's hut and hit on all the Christian girls. There's really no power anyone holds over you that isn't working with the government or at your workplace. Run off for a few days and come back after a while. Worry usually gets your point across to people who don't like to listen to logic. Well... I've just pretty much told you what I've done before, and I worked out well enough. If you REALLY don't want to be pushed around, you have the ability to push back. Just because they're adults, don't let that intimidate you

Why not go along to church, but let your mother know that you are only doing it so that she doesn't look bad to the other churchgoers?

I don't know if that's a good idea, since I've never been in the situation, but maybe it would make you look both caring and intelligent?

Oh god. Ever spend 3 hours sitting through Sermons when all you want to do is go back to bed? I used to be christian, and I quit. My parents LOVED church, and we'd stay for every single word the preacher preached and every chorus song sang. Church is a lot like Detention. There's almost no purpose, except the fact that it has a FEW good morals thrown in, that you could learn from watching a little children's telly once a week.

A 16 year old child making a declaration like this to his parents is an attempt to control his parents, all it reveals is a weak mind. Anyone can be an Agnostic, it doesn't require being an ingrate to those who pay your way through the world.

Confronting one's parents like that only reveals a scared little child who is jealous of the illusion of power he believes adults have. Just like the child the parents have opinions, right and wrong. However the parents, not the children have the responsibility for the child and children had better learn their place in the world before they try attempt to decide what rights they posses and which their parents do.

Wait, wut? Parent's pay the way through your world, sure, but that's also their responsibility. A child shouldn't have to EARN their right to be nurtured and cared for. You brought it in, you make sure it can fly when the time comes. Granted, a child should be able to go out on it's own sometime around the end of school, especially if it's an asshole to you, but it's still your kid. If your kid's complaining about you not being fair, you say "Hold on now, and listen for a moment." Don;t be mad, don;t talk down, just chill out and talk. Then let them express their points, and make sure they express ALL of them. Good communication can solve most problems with a bad child, and you might actually have to admit to a mistake every once in a while. All in all, kids have to be nurtured, no matter what. It's their right to be payed for instead of them having to earn it. Plus, the sex that produced it should be factored into the price for raising it. $60 isn't 125,000, I know, but it's at least a little. :P (That was a joke)

Truth be told, there really isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Trying to explain to her your stance on religion will only result in further restriction or a summer spent at a bible study camp somewhere. You could always act out, as was previously suggested, but again... you're only asking for her to bring down the hammer even harder. My suggestion... suck it up. Is it really that bad? Hell, if reading the bible and going to church covered my room and board... I'd be dawning my Sunday best as we speak. Life doesn't play into your belief system. Complaining about it via blog or soapbox won't fix it. You'll only discover there's an endless sea of people wanting to get thier two cents in and all you're left with is a thread of useless posts. All you can really do is learn to not be so butt-hurt when those beliefs get trampled.

If getting it off your chest seems to help... by all means gripe away. I just wouldn't expect the clear cut solution. Life has a tendency to shit in your Cheerios on a daily basis. You just need to develope a thicker skin.

do what your mom says, try to be respectful, move out when you can and live your own life at that point.

I don't see the big issue here.

These are perhaps the only two posts here worth a damn.

These are perhaps the only two posts here worth a damn.

The kid's looking for advice that he thinks will help him in this instance, not what will actually help him in the long run. Hell, most of us teens don't care about our future, until that future shows up on our doorstep with a fist readied to punch you in the face. I hope mine isn't wearing brass knuckles, but I stop getting my hopes up for such things.

The kid's looking for advice that he thinks will help him in this instance, not what will actually help him in the long run. Hell, most of us teens don't care about our future, until that future shows up on our doorstep with a fist readied to punch you in the face. I hope mine isn't wearing brass knuckles, but I stop getting my hopes up for such things.

maybe if you were more concerned for your future and the future of those around you the world would be just a little bit nicer.

Parental respect is an odd thing. As a parent, I am faced with the reality of trying to explain and teach respect to my children. Now, my kids pick up my habits and mannerisms. They treat me the way I treat them. Actually, they seem to have less patience than I, but I'm 28 years older than my oldest, so this is not a big surprise.

The easiest way to teach respect is by treating them with respect. Don't use that stupid kiddie voice when talking to children. Don't yell at them. Don't tell them to do something without explaining why and expect to them do it. Don't provide ultimatums. Don't use generalisations.

In short, don't treat them differently than you would want to be treated. The obvious exception to this rule is when the children are doing something that is physically dangerous and they do not realise it. Then you simply stop them and explain why it was unsafe.

In this case, the OP is the unenvious position of having to educate his (her?)mother on mutual respect.

To the OP:

I would suggest talking to her about how in a nonviolent manner. Here is an exercise that may help ( http://nycnvc.org/nvcexercisehome.htm ), even if it is corny. I find nonviolent communication, or NVC, is a very useful tool in talking to my children. Hopefully it can work in the other direction as well.

Wow, this really brings out the worst in everyone. I'm a (very) confirmed atheist, e.g. I react badly to any attempt to convert me to any sort of religion; however, I respect others' beliefs. My parents are indeed fundamentalists, but I've worked out a deal where I pay them rent and food money, ad they don't drag me to church. So I'm basically independent at the age of 14. Obviously, I can't get a legal job yet, and I'm paying a lot less than I would if I was renting a normal place, but odd jobs can bring in a lot of money for you. However, you're 16 and can drive and legally get a job. Depending on how bad your situation is(and it sounds pretty bad to me), it looks like you have 3 options:
1)Put up, shut up, and pretend to be a Christian for 2 years, then head to university somewhere far enough away that you're not expected to visit on weekends;
2)Get a job and save up money to move out at 18
3)Cut ties now, start working, and accept a life in a relatively low-income job.

All 3 have disadvantages, but it looks like university would be the best option, if only because you lose 2 years and not the opportunity of getting your degree and doubling your expected income.

@UP-You have good ideas, just work on political correctness
@Smunkeeville-You haven't made a single post I have seen that is constructive(i.e. is NOT what you would do yourself or would have all others do) to the problem at hand:Helping someone who needs help. Isn't that supposed to be a central theme of the religion you claim to love so much?


^Garbled syntax makes me sound like an idiot:headbang:

maybe if you were more concerned for your future and the future of those around you the world would be just a little bit nicer.

I do concern for the future of those around me Smunk, I just have no looking forward to my own. Strife and hard work isn't a good idea us Teens like to think about too long. BTW It's The Kid here, I haven't gotten around to changing my log on over in Jolt yet. And the fact still remains I AM a Teen. An angst-ridden world-hating Pseudo-intellectual teen. I like to think that I'm smart, but I do know there's a lot of things I still have to learn. Even so, I will still act like I know a lot, and will try and prove that I know a lot very often. My problem is motivation, but I'm sure I'll find that in the next few years when my political footings are established :D

@Smunkeeville-You haven't made a single post I have seen that is constructive(i.e. is NOT what you would do yourself or would have all others do) to the problem at hand:Helping someone who needs help. Isn't that supposed to be a central theme of the religion you claim to love so much?
how are my posts not constructive? I basically gave the same advice you did.

Wow, this really brings out the worst in everyone. I'm a (very) confirmed atheist, e.g. I react badly to any attempt to convert me to any sort of religion; however, I respect others' beliefs. My parents are indeed fundamentalists, but I've worked out a deal where I pay them rent and food money, ad they don't drag me to church. So I'm basically independent at the age of 14. Obviously, I can't get a legal job yet, and I'm paying a lot less than I would if I was renting a normal place, but odd jobs can bring in a lot of money for you. However, you're 16 and can drive and legally get a job. Depending on how bad your situation is(and it sounds pretty bad to me), it looks like you have 3 options:
1)Put up, shut up, and pretend to be a Christian for 2 years, then head to university somewhere far enough away that you're not expected to visit on weekends;
2)Get a job and save up money to move out at 18
3)Cut ties now, start working, and accept a life in a relatively low-income job.

All 3 have disadvantages, but it looks like university would be the best option, if only because you lose 2 years and not the opportunity of getting your degree and doubling your expected income.

@UP-You have good ideas, just work on political correctness
@Smunkeeville-You haven't made a single post I have seen that is constructive(i.e. is NOT what you would do yourself or would have all others do) to the problem at hand:Helping someone who needs help. Isn't that supposed to be a central theme of the religion you claim to love so much?


^Garbled syntax makes me sound like an idiot:headbang:

Yah, she did, in earlier posts, but I didn't read them either...

I do concern for the future of those around me Smunk, I just have no looking forward to my own. Strife and hard work isn't a good idea us Teens like to think about too long. BTW It's The Kid here, I haven't gotten around to changing my log on over in Jolt yet. And the fact still remains I AM a Teen. An angst-ridden world-hating Pseudo-intellectual teen. I like to think that I'm smart, but I do know there's a lot of things I still have to learn. Even so, I will still act like I know a lot, and will try and prove that I know a lot very often. My problem is motivation, but I'm sure I'll find that in the next few years when my political footings are established :D

yeah, but.....still....and....oh! I remember!

"if you aim at nothing, you will hit it everytime"- Zig Zigler.

think about that kid. *nod*

yeah, but.....still....and....oh! I remember!

"if you aim at nothing, you will hit it everytime"- Zig Zigler.

think about that kid. *nod*

That's all fair and nice, but it doesn't help the motivation problem, correct? This kid who's complaining wants to hear solutions, not what he really needs because he won't do it. He wants something that's moving, not passive. Teens do not approve of passive. We like action, and we like it now. There's nothing that will change that unless you go back to our childhood and raise us differently to make us into adults before our time Smunk

That's all fair and nice, but it doesn't help the motivation problem, correct? This kid who's complaining wants to hear solutions, not what he really needs because he won't do it. He wants something that's moving, not passive. Teens do not approve of passive. We like action, and we like it now. There's nothing that will change that unless you go back to our childhood and raise us differently to make us into adults before our time Smunk

I think you can still be a teen and be responsible for your actions. You are probably right though, without me raising you, it's going to be hard to understand your value system.

I think you can still be a teen and be responsible for your actions. You are probably right though, without me raising you, it's going to be hard to understand your value system.

You can be responsible for your actions, but should you be bossed around because someone's paying for you? Children have the right to be payed for, and live the way they like. Parents have the power to try and sway you, not force you. I'm just going to sow my seeds deep in my kid's head when he's little so I have as little problems as possible when he gets older. It's an adaptation of what the church does, but with less hellfire and brimstone and promises of everlasting bliss.

You can be responsible for your actions, but should you be bossed around because someone's paying for you? Children have the right to be payed for, and live the way they like. Parents have the power to try and sway you, not force you. I'm just going to sow my seeds deep in my kid's head when he's little so I have as little problems as possible when he gets older. It's an adaptation of what the church does, but with less hellfire and brimstone and promises of everlasting bliss.

I never said the mom was right. I think it's a piss poor thing she is doing. I only think he's gotta look out for himself. Like I said earlier to win the game sometimes you gotta play. Just because she is being a bitch doesn't mean he has to act like an ass. Integrity has no age limit. He can take the high road, and leave her looking like an idiot.

I never said the mom was right. I think it's a piss poor thing she is doing. I only think he's gotta look out for himself. Like I said earlier to win the game sometimes you gotta play. Just because she is being a bitch doesn't mean he has to act like an ass. Integrity has no age limit. He can take the high road, and leave her looking like an idiot.

But would pretending to be a christian and following her path feel like a victory to him? Maybe a few years down the road. I want to win, and I want to win now. There's more ways to win a game than one. Like a staring contest, you can play by the rules and keep on staring, or you can reach out and shut the others eyes with your own hand. It might be a little rougher, but the early victory might be a great relief. I know I couldn't stand the preaching every single sunday, and then my parents talking about it at home. I didn't think I could bare it for 2 years, but I knew I could. I still chose to end it right then and there. There's hundreds of ways to interpret someone else's games. They want to play it there way, but they can never tie up all the loopholes.

I find you to be far more hostile than most Christian posters here when they're defending their faith.

I thought I was the only one who noticed that. This is why although I won't agree with you on your view of religion, I still respect you... you can discuss why you think I am ill-advised to believe without being insulting.

A child should begin to think about respect from a young age. A responsible parent will ensure that a child is thinking about respect before they begin to think about doing something on their own for the first time.

I agree that it should come from a young age, but don't want to get started with Smunkee again.


Respect comes from doing what is right; what makes you a better person. Getting into trouble is no reason to revoke that respect because the child has not disrespected the parent (unless the action was against the parent).
Respect is built and enlarged by doing something right. If a child does not do what is right that child is showing disrespect for everyone around them. Their parents, their teachers, their friends, everyone. Their actions are reflected on those around them. Where do you think the term "bad crowd" comes from? The group gets or loses respect through the actions of the individual.



No one ever deserved respect. People; parents and children have to earn it.
NO. Everyone in a position of authority deserves respect until they do something to lose it. If a mother is a druggie or drunk or abuser then the right of respect is given up. A mother that makes a request of a child that is in no way harmful to that child still deserves natural respect. If you can't put in a couple boring hours out of respect for your mother why would any employer want you for any position. You will never find an employer that won't ask you for more than this mother is asking for.
Just because you're someone's parent doesn't mean you are automatically granted that respect.
Yes they do. Until they do something blatantly harmful to the child. It comes with their decision not to abort your worthless fetus.

But would pretending to be a christian and following her path feel like a victory to him? Maybe a few years down the road. I want to win, and I want to win now. There's more ways to win a game than one. Like a staring contest, you can play by the rules and keep on staring, or you can reach out and shut the others eyes with your own hand. It might be a little rougher, but the early victory might be a great relief. I know I couldn't stand the preaching every single sunday, and then my parents talking about it at home. I didn't think I could bare it for 2 years, but I knew I could. I still chose to end it right then and there. There's hundreds of ways to interpret someone else's games. They want to play it there way, but they can never tie up all the loopholes.

he doesn't have to pretend to be a Christian though, all he has to do is obey and be respectful, you can treat someone with respect without agreeing with them, you can obey your parent even though you think they are full of crap.

If I ask my children to do something, they do it, because that is what they are supposed to do.

he doesn't have to pretend to be a Christian though, all he has to do is obey and be respectful, you can treat someone with respect without agreeing with them, you can obey your parent even though you think they are full of crap.

If I ask my children to do something, they do it, because that is what they are supposed to do.

If my parents don't respect my beliefs why should I respect theirs?

he doesn't have to pretend to be a Christian though, all he has to do is obey and be respectful, you can treat someone with respect without agreeing with them, you can obey your parent even though you think they are full of crap.

If I ask my children to do something, they do it, because that is what they are supposed to do.

SEIG HEIL!

A parent should respect their child's opinion, most notably given that said child is 16(ish) and seems to be, despite being damned to eternity with satan and all his little wizards, a model teenager. If a parent is unable to respect their child's beliefs and accept the futility of forcing a child to attend church, they deserve no respect themselves.

If my parents don't respect my beliefs why should I respect theirs?

Because they have a stockpile of experience on which to base their beliefs. A child only thinks they have experience.

Because they have a stockpile of experience on which to base their beliefs. A child only thinks they have experience.

I'm under the impression that parents are just people and are fallable as such. I'll respectfully consider their side of things but i'm not going to change an incredibly important belief (and i'd lose a lot of respect for them if they thought they could force one on me) because i'm told to.

Once more; this issue is different. In a general sense, I concur with the above, however, forcing a child to go to church and act the devoted christian is not a demonstration of experiance giving superior judgement, it is authoratarian nonsense.

Meh Chris put it better than me

Because they have a stockpile of experience on which to base their beliefs. A child only thinks they have experience.

But if that experience is negative, they are projecting negative beliefs onto the child which isn't healthy. That experience doesn't necessarily equate to wisdom nor does it make them better or worse people. By forcing a child to follow your beliefs even if they don't believe you're not letting them gather their own experiences on which to grown and learn.

Because they have a stockpile of experience on which to base their beliefs. A child only thinks they have experience.

Once more; this issue is different. In a general sense, I concur with the above, however, forcing a child to go to church and act the devoted christian is not a demonstration of experiance giving superior judgement, it is authoratarian nonsense.

Depending on how bad your situation is(and it sounds pretty bad to me), it looks like you have 3 options:
1)Put up, shut up, and pretend to be a Christian for 2 years, then head to university somewhere far enough away that you're not expected to visit on weekends;
2)Get a job and save up money to move out at 18
3)Cut ties now, start working, and accept a life in a relatively low-income job.
There is at least one other option for the immediate future. Be honest and engaging without being hostile. Although you may be materially dependant on them as a minor, maintaining a relationship with your family is not something that should ever have ideological symmetry or segregation at its core. People in families have differences, and acknowledging these differences and learning to both deal with these differences and continue to love despite them is a valuable set of lessons to take away from the family, both for the child and for the parent.

Sure, you can fake it now and run later. Sure, you can evade any and all discussion on the matter and escape into a world of work and the dreams of independance. Sure, you can run as fast as possible. But you're going to have to learn to get along with those with whom we find ourselves in ideological conflict sooner or later. Sacrificing your integrity, hiding and running are not appropriate solutions when it comes to really engaging with people, because that's not what relating to others is about.

I'm not expecting this to be a kind of tension that the OP will resolve overnight. Indeed, I hope it is never fully negated. Ideological tension spurs growth on and keeps life interesting. As long as it is kept in mind that such differences should not be allowed to stand in the way of love, I do genuinely think that openly acknowledging and appreciating them (though, obviously, humility in regards to one's own perspective is important) can be something that relationships will ultimately benefit from.

SEIG HEIL!

A parent should respect their child's opinion, most notably given that said child is 16(ish) and seems to be, despite being damned to eternity with satan and all his little wizards, a model teenager. If a parent is unable to respect their child's beliefs and accept the futility of forcing a child to attend church, they deserve no respect themselves.

I didn't say the parent was right, but just because the parent is wrong doesn't mean the child has to be as well.

If my parents don't respect my beliefs why should I respect theirs?

you don't have to respect their beliefs, you should have enough respect for them to follow their rules, if you do not, then perhaps you should move out.

I changed this letter to apply to your situation:


Dear Mom:

It is with great regret and sorrow that I'm writing you. I had to elope with my new girlfriend because I wanted to avoid a scene with you. I have been finding real passion with Stacy and she is so nice. But I knew you would not approve of her because of all her piercings, tattoos, tight motorcycle clothes and the fact that she is much older than I am. But it's not only the passion...Mom she's pregnant. Stacy said that we will be very happy. She owns a trailer in the woods and has a stack of firewood for the whole winter. We share a dream of having many more children.

Stacy has opened my eyes to the fact that marijuana doesn't really hurt anyone.We'll be growing it for ourselves and trading it with the other people that live nearby for cocaine and ecstasy. In the meantime we will pray that science will find a cure for AIDS so Stacy can get better. She deserves it. Don't worry Mom. I'm 16 and I know how to take care of myself. Someday I'm sure that we will be back to visit so that you can get to know your grandchildren.

Love,
Your Son


P.S. Mom, none of the above is true. I'm over at Tommy's house. I just wanted to remind you that there are worse things in life than not blindly following the Christian faith.

I love you.
Call me when it's safe to come home.

Once more; this issue is different. In a general sense, I concur with the above, however, forcing a child to go to church and act the devoted christian is not a demonstration of experiance giving superior judgement, it is authoratarian nonsense.

That's because parents are the authority. If they beat you that's a different thing. If they force you to obey authority they are teaching you to be an adult.

By forcing a child to follow your beliefs even if they don't believe you're not letting them gather their own experiences on which to grown and learn.

The mother isn't forcing the kid to believe anything. She's forcing him to experience and learn about the dominant belief he will be dealing with. That is adding to his stockpile of knowledge something he won't get sleeping in.

That's because parents are the authority. If they beat you that's a different thing. If they force you to obey authority they are teaching you to be an adult.

They are teaching one to genuflect to beliefs one does not subscribe to in this case. Blind deference to authority of the sort you extol above is unhealthy genuflection even in a professional sense, however, to simply defer to the religious views of another is nothing short of moronic, and unreasonable upon the part of those in authority.

I'm under the impression that parents are just people and are fallable as such. I'll respectfully consider their side of things but i'm not going to change an incredibly important belief (and i'd lose a lot of respect for them if they thought they could force one on me) because i'm told to.

A kid of 16 doesn't have a clue what they believe or don't believe, and don't have anything to base belief or unbelief on. It's the parents mistakes (fallability) that have given them the experience to make decisions.

The mother isn't forcing the kid to believe anything. She's forcing him to experience and learn about the dominant belief he will be dealing with. That is adding to his stockpile of knowledge something he won't get sleeping in.

So much bilge. She is forcing him, in you will refer to the OP, to act every inch the good christian; attending church, only participating in "christian" activities etc.

In any case, the axiom that christianity is the "dominant belief" of the epoch is flawed. We live in what is, as much as it is anything, a secular age in which religion tends to be disdained as an anachronism. In light of this, the notion that he is gaining valuable experiance is tripe; even were christianty still dominant, religious education in school performs the role of religious education.

A kid of 16 doesn't have a clue what they believe or don't believe, and don't have anything to base belief or unbelief on. It's the parents mistakes (fallability) that have given them the experience to make decisions.

Do you not understand? What you write, rather banally to my mind, is correct in regards to decisions with incontrovertible, palpable implications for the child's professional, social and educational future. However, it is immaterial in considering religion; religion is a wholly personal affair, with bugger all implications either positive or negative for a childs future in objective terms.

Moreover, anybody can base a belief upon reason. Reason is the tool with which we find atheism, religion and the like, not life experiance.

They are teaching one to genuflect to beliefs one does not subscribe to in this case. Blind deference to authority of the sort you extol above is unhealthy genuflection even in a professional sense, however, to simply defer to the religious views of another is nothing short of moronic, and unreasonable upon the part of those in authority.

Maybe we need to start the draft over so kids can understand the difference between belief and authority.

A general, an employer, and maybe a parent doesn't care what you believe at a particular moment in life. They all do care about actions. All this mother is asking for is that the baby child follows actions. She has the authority, right, lawful power to make those requirements.

An employer doesn't particularly care what you believe. You get what you get if and when you follow the actions required by authority. As long as those actions are not illegal it is the employee's job to do the action, not believe in it.

The mother, if nothing else, is preparing this baby for the future.

Just let her talk to me.

So you can be a shining light of everything that reasonable non-Christians DON'T want to project to everyone?

So much bilge. She is forcing him, in you will refer to the OP, to act every inch the good christian; attending church, only participating in "christian" activities etc.

In any case, the axiom that christianity is the "dominant belief" of the epoch is flawed. We live in what is, as much as it is anything, a secular age in which religion tends to be disdained as an anachronism. In light of this, the notion that he is gaining valuable experiance is tripe; even were christianty still dominant, religious education in school performs the role of religious education.

So in the military you are taught to march. Now when in battle do you see soldiers marching? But is it a worthless activity? Apparently not since there isn't an army in the world that doesn't teach every soldier to march.

The point is self discipline and taking orders from those in authority are the basics of any society. It matters not one iota if those orders have no see able value. It is the act of doing that is important.

I think you need to do more study if you think religion is an anachronism anywhere in the world. I dare you to find one society in the world that has a majority of non religious people.

Maybe we need to start the draft over so kids can understand the difference between belief and authority.

A general, an employer, and maybe a parent doesn't care what you believe at a particular moment in life. They all do care about actions. All this mother is asking for is that the baby child follows actions. She has the authority, right, lawful power to make those requirements.

An employer doesn't particularly care what you believe. You get what you get if and when you follow the actions required by authority. As long as those actions are not illegal it is the employee's job to do the action, not believe in it.

The mother, if nothing else, is preparing this baby for the future.

An employer will not require one to participate only in christian activites; an employers demands will have a direct result, either financial or physical, which will not only benefit the employer but also the employer's opinion of the employee. What the mother requires has no palpable benefit other than appeasing her own anachronistic neurosises; how does reading a bible benefit the child?

It really is not difficult; it is a matter of subtlety.

So you can be a shining light of everything that reasonable non-Christians DON'T want to project to everyone?

Who the fuck are you to personally attack a poster?

Do you not understand? What you write, rather banally to my mind, is correct in regards to decisions with incontrovertible, palpable implications for the child's professional, social and educational future. However, it is immaterial in considering religion; religion is a wholly personal affair, with bugger all implications either positive or negative for a childs future in objective terms.

Moreover, anybody can base a belief upon reason. Reason is the tool with which we find atheism, religion and the like, not life experiance.

Humans are creatures of habit. The habits of one realm of life carry over to all realms. That is the basic logic of a school having a sports team.

According to Aristotle and Plato and Cicero and Quintillion: Reason comes from a storehouse of knowledge. We cannot reason about things we are not knowledgeable of. How can we base a decision on something if we have nothing to base it on. I dare you to find a major philosopher that argues reason can come from ignorance.

The mother isn't forcing the kid to believe anything. She's forcing him to experience and learn about the dominant belief he will be dealing with. That is adding to his stockpile of knowledge something he won't get sleeping in.

It's still forced and that is not doing him any favours.

One doesn't have to be in or go to a church or temple or synagogue or mosque or any kind of religious temple in order to learn about a dominant belief or any belief for that matter. They can learn just by being around people of their beliefs or people of other beliefs and it can happen anywhere and a good place is public school.

An employer will not require one to participate only in christian activites; an employers demands will have a direct result, either financial or physical, which will not only benefit the employer but also the employer's opinion of the employee. What the mother requires has no palpable benefit other than appeasing her own anachronistic neurosises; how does reading a bible benefit the child?

It really is not difficult; it is a matter of subtlety.

A mother not only has the right but the duty to teach a child the disciplines that will make that child successful in life.

One of those is doing a lot of things you think are stupid just because you are told to do them. As an employer, I can tell you it is far better to have an employee that understands that life isn't always a fun game.

Humans are creatures of habit. The habits of one realm of life carry over to all realms. That is the basic logic of a school having a sports team.

Wonderful. I assume you meant to relate that explicitly to the discussion?

As for a school sports team, the "basic logic" behind the school sports team is much the same as any sports side; to permit those who excel at sport to do so, bringing them and the school success and happiness.

According to Aristotle, Plato, Cicero and Quintillion: Reason comes from a storehouse of knowledge. We cannot reason about things we are not knowledgeable of. How can we base a decision on something if we have nothing to base it on. I dare you to find a major philosopher that argues reason can come from ignorance.

Do you lack any subtlety?

Religion is a different entity alltogether from that which you allude to; it requires no experience, no "human capital" or any such crap to be considered. Such is the nature of the divine that, lacking physical evidence for it, it can only be considered by reason and argument; such abilities, in a 16 year old as clearly academic as the OP, are more than present.

Who the fuck are you to personally attack a poster?

Pot, have you met kettle? You two do have a lot in common.

Pot, have you met kettle? You two do have a lot in common.

I don't actually attack people in that fashion. I was merely questioning how he can attack UB having been here bugger all time and posted bugger all posts. I'd venture he's simply jumping on a bandwagon.

A mother not only has the right but the duty to teach a child the disciplines that will make that child successful in life.

One of those is doing a lot of things you think are stupid just because you are told to do them. As an employer, I can tell you it is far better to have an employee that understands that life isn't always a fun game.

There is a difference between doing something you find unpleasant for an employer than being forced to read the Bible and attend mass. At least for the employer it is only for that one assignment and the sooner you finish it the sooner you no longer are dealing with it . Further, believing in what you're doing doesn't stop you from gaining nothing. You still have a pay cheque coming out of it.

The kid stands to gain nothing from going to church and reading the bible if he truly doesn't believe it. If there is no desire; no belief, there is no incentive.

For the job you suck it up because you are aware of potential incentives.

A mother not only has the right but the duty to teach a child the disciplines that will make that child successful in life.

One of those is doing a lot of things you think are stupid just because you are told to do them. As an employer, I can tell you it is far better to have an employee that understands that life isn't always a fun game.

And said sacred duty involves genuflection to any who might hold a measure of authority? Much as that might appease your personal ego as an employer, such obsequeiance would create a wholly submissive society in which authority was never questioned or called to account.

Would you then expect an employee to do the funky chicken or dye their hair pink simply because you, esteemed as a real life employer (gosh, how you must gush with pride at such a high status), tell them to do so?

I don't actually attack people in that fashion. I was merely questioning how he can attack UB having been here bugger all time and posted bugger all posts. I'd venture he's simply jumping on a bandwagon.

I'm aware that you typically don't, it just struck me as amusing that you call him out on his actions in a slightly-less-than diplomatic manner.

Point taken.

On lined or plain paper? ;)

As for a school sports team, the "basic logic" behind the school sports team is much the same as any sports side; to permit those who excel at sport to do so, bringing them and the school success and happiness.

Religion is a different entity alltogether from that which you allude to; it requires no experience, no "human capital" or any such crap to be considered. Such is the nature of the divine that, lacking physical evidence for it, it can only be considered by reason and argument; such abilities, in a 16 year old as clearly academic as the OP, are more than present.

School sports are to teach self discipline, understanding of authority, working toward a common goal, planning, practicing, evaluating changing conditions.......... The idea is those habits will become a part of the person and will be transfered through habit to other areas of life. The mother in this case is trying to instill a useful habit if nothing else.

Show me a major religion that doesn't require experience, knowledge, self discipline, the ability to give your own wants for the good of the whole, things that simply don't exist in the vast majority of 16 year olds. Certainly not in those whose mothers don't give a d---.

And there is physical evidence--but we covered that in 15 pages of another thread last week.

you don't have to respect their beliefs, you should have enough respect for them to follow their rules, if you do not, then perhaps you should move out.

Ahh yes, but that is the thing, but what happens when do a parents rules become undistinguished from their religious moral beliefs...?

I'm aware that you typically don't, it just struck me as amusing that you call him out on his actions in a slightly-less-than diplomatic manner.

Point taken.

School sports are to teach self discipline, understanding of authority, working toward a common goal, planning, practicing, evaluating changing conditions.......... The idea is those habits will become a part of the person and will be transfered through habit to other areas of life. The mother in this case is trying to instill a useful habit if nothing else.

Show me a major religion that doesn't require experience, knowledge, self discipline, the ability to give your own wants for the good of the whole, things that simply don't exist in the vast majority of 16 year olds. Certainly not in those whose mothers don't give a d---.

And there is physical evidence--but we covered that in 15 pages of another thread last week.

School sport, much like school, is as much about a Hectoresque pure interest in sport, academia and learning as it is the drole desire to impose practicality upon everything. You sir, remind me of a less intellectually stimulating, less eloquent, and wholly less likeable, Irwin. You have, of course, seen "the History Boys"?

Moreover, what you allude to as requistes to religiosity are little more the secondary concerns to the key issue; namely, the predication of one's life upon the existence of the divine. The existence of the divine, given the lack of physical evidence either way, is a matter wholly peculiar to reason, intellect and argument; even a sad, small minded material pragmatist such as yourself can appreciate that an academically excellent 16 year old is as well equipped as most, and more than many, to consider this himself.

And said sacred duty involves genuflection to any who might hold a measure of authority? Much as that might appease your personal ego as an employer, such obsequeiance would create a wholly submissive society in which authority was never questioned or called to account.

Would you then expect an employee to do the funky chicken or dye their hair pink simply because you, esteemed as a real life employer (gosh, how you must gush with pride at such a high status), tell them to do so?

As long as that person doesn't ask you to do anything illegal or (as in your example) would harm the person.

I honestly doubt that those attending church would ridicule the child for asking tough questions. The worst that can happen is he learns to sit quietly for a time. Might be useful in an office.

On lined or plain paper? ;)

Which ever makes you happy....:D

I honestly doubt that those attending church would ridicule the child for asking tough questions. The worst that can happen is he learns to sit quietly for a time. Might be useful in an office.

Oh like one doesn't learn how to sit quietly for a time in school? :rolleyes:

As long as that person doesn't ask you to do anything illegal or (as in your example) would harm the person.

I honestly doubt that those attending church would ridicule the child for asking tough questions. The worst that can happen is he learns to sit quietly for a time. Might be useful in an office.

Good lord you truly are tedious.

You wholly miss the point that the mother has no mandate to force her child to act the christian; not only is it morally wrong, but, crucially I feel for you, it serves no ends that would not be better served by other means.

practicality upon everything.

The existence of the divine, given the lack of physical evidence either way,

There is a practical side to everything. Every moment of one's life is added to the whole of knowledge. Something the mind can draw upon. The more in there the more comparisons the synapses can make, the better the results. Sort of like a computer with Word only or a computer loaded with a dozen programs.

At 16 not to many programs have been loaded. The potential is there but the software is missing.

As I said earlier, there is physical evidence but it would (and did last week) take too long to explain.

Good lord you truly are tedious.

You wholly miss the point that the mother has no mandate to force her child to act the christian; not only is it morally wrong, but, crucially I feel for you, it serves no ends that would not be better served by other means.

Of course she not only has a mandate but a duty to force her child to go through the motions of anything she thinks will aid his future. It would be morally wrong if she had the ability to give him guidance and didn't. It serves several ends. Some extrinsic and some intrinsic.

Maybe we need to start the draft over so kids can understand the difference between belief and authority.

A general, an employer, and maybe a parent doesn't care what you believe at a particular moment in life. They all do care about actions. All this mother is asking for is that the baby child follows actions. She has the authority, right, lawful power to make those requirements.

An employer doesn't particularly care what you believe. You get what you get if and when you follow the actions required by authority. As long as those actions are not illegal it is the employee's job to do the action, not believe in it.

The mother, if nothing else, is preparing this baby for the future.

I think the fundamental problem is that you assume that children should learn to obey authority. I disagree completley. As most of those in authority by no means deserves to be authority, teaching children to obey authority will produce a society of useless submissive quasi-slaves (I'm exagerating here). Since authority has no moral power over me (although they do have earthly power) I only obey authority when it is something I would do anyway because it makes sense, or when it is of more benefit to me to obey than to disobey. Since authority is mostly composed of idiotic, immoral, fools, children should by no means be taught to obey it.

And now I quote Judas Priest "You don't have to be old to be wise!"

Which brings me to my next point (unrelated to the post I quoted, but related to other posts you have made). Age brings experience, but experience does not neccesiraly bring wisdom. Many adults are much more idiotic and foolish than teenagers, including those who lead us, and who create our moral rules.

I think the fundamental problem is that you assume that children should learn to obey authority. I disagree completley. As most of those in authority by no means deserves to be authority, teaching children to obey authority will produce a society of useless submissive quasi-slaves (I'm exagerating here). Since authority has no moral power over me (although they do have earthly power) I only obey authority when it is something I would do anyway because it makes sense, or when it is of more benefit to me to obey than to disobey. Since authority is mostly composed of idiotic, immoral, fools, children should by no means be taught to obey it.

And now I quotes Judas Priest "You don't have to be old to be wise!"

Which brings me to my next point (unrelated to the post I quoted, but related to other posts you have made). Age brings experience, but experience does not neccesiraly bring wisdom. Many adults are much more idiotic and foolish than teenagers, including those who lead us, and who create our moral rules.

Without authority there is no civilization. Not even tribal.

Age and experience doesn't always bring wisdom. But without the experience there can not even be a possibility of wisdom.

As with my above example. A computer without the software can't be wise. But that doesn't make a computer loaded with software useful. It all comes down to how you use the software (experience) after you have it.

I think the fundamental problem is that you assume that children should learn to obey authority. I disagree completley. As most of those in authority by no means deserves to be authority, teaching children to obey authority will produce a society of useless submissive quasi-slaves (I'm exagerating here). Since authority has no moral power over me (although they do have earthly power) I only obey authority when it is something I would do anyway because it makes sense, or when it is of more benefit to me to obey than to disobey. Since authority is mostly composed of idiotic, immoral, fools, children should by no means be taught to obey it.


I would like to ask a question, which I hope is not too far off-topic: how much power do people here think government authority (which is what I assume this poster is referring to) have over them? Allow me to extrapolate: I am a middle-class American. Ever since George Bush has been president, I have not had a lower income, I have not served in Iraq, and I have not had my rights violated. Thus, my opposition to him is based entirely on theory, on what I believe is right and wrong. I suspect the same is true with many posters here.
The reason I ask this is because there seems to be a disagreement as to whether obedience is a useful trait or a harmful one. I'm wondering if a situation will arise where it will ever matter.

I would like to ask a question, which I hope is not too far off-topic: how much power do people here think government authority (which is what I assume this poster is referring to) have over them? Allow me to extrapolate: I am a middle-class American. Ever since George Bush has been president, I have not had a lower income, I have not served in Iraq, and I have not had my rights violated. Thus, my opposition to him is based entirely on theory, on what I believe is right and wrong. I suspect the same is true with many posters here.
The reason I ask this is because there seems to be a disagreement as to whether obedience is a useful trait or a harmful one. I'm wondering if a situation will arise where it will ever matter.

The thread is about whether a mother can make a 16 year old attend church.

When the government becomes destructive of the people it is the right of the people to overthrow it and establish a new government. The people decided in 2004 that the government wasn't destructive.

The thread is about whether a mother can make a 16 year old attend church.

When the government becomes destructive of the people it is the right of the people to overthrow it and establish a new government. The people decided in 2004 that the government wasn't destructive.

Right, but the argument in favor of her seems to be that learning when to listen to authority is a useful ability, and the other side is arguing that it is not a useful trait, perhaps even a harmful one. I was wondering if it mattered.

He should just tell his mother he has become an NSGist (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=537964).

Right, but the argument in favor of her seems to be that learning when to listen to authority is a useful ability, and the other side is arguing that it is not a useful trait, perhaps even a harmful one. I was wondering if it mattered.

It only matters if the order is illegal or in some way harmful. Going to church a couple hours per week would be considered neither to any rational person. It might not be fun, but neither is going to work every morning.

And we are talking of a 16 year old. Not exactly the most rational age in life. And a person considered legally incompetent.