NationStates Jolt Archive

The Pledge of Allegiance to The United States of America is at best a very pointless and idiotic thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a very patriotic person, my father was a Desert Storm vet and Air Force officer for over twenty-three years before retirement, I absolutely love every square inch of this soil; I'd die for it.
However, I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

For anyone reading this post in your own respective countries apart form the U.S., who are unaware of what the ridiculous thing is that I speak of, this is the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

It is simply a pledge that schoolchildren across the U.S. are encouraged to say first thing in the morning before studies. Why? No one can seriously answer that question without getting angry at me for being unpatriotic. I'm from heavily-conservative Texas though, so that should put things in perspective. Hell, I have to say a Texas Pledge as well; that's really bizzare considering it's the only state that I've lived in dumb enough to cook somthing like that up.

But why won't I say the pledge? If you do any research, you'll find that the Pledge was made up by some salesman named Francis Bellamy for a children's magazine as an advertising slogan celebrating Columbus Day and to try to sell American flags to schools; he was a heavy socialist using the Pledge to teach schoolchildren obedience to the state as a virtue. This is the problem that I have, I'm not the "screw the man" type of guy, but I don't live to serve the state. Come on! A socialist flag salesman? What kind of background is that? It seems stupid we should have to honor it.

I don't believe the government of this country is what makes it great. But it is the people from which its governing power is derived that makes it great. It is the sense of individual spirit in most Americans that makes my country enjoyable, despite it's faults, which no country can deny to having.

So what? I don't have to say it right? That's true, it's not compulsory, and the only people who say it are school kids that don't know what they're saying anyway. So what am I complaining about? The fact that everyone I know blindly says it without knowing where it came from or what it means! And most people who don't say it are the, "'under God' in the pledge offends me," crowd, or emo kids that think not saying it has shock value; not because there is a real principle behind it.

I don't bother explaining this to anyone because it's pointless.

But that's just the thing, no one even cares about the Pledge at all, it's not worth discussing. And if no one even pays attention to what they're saying when saying the pledge, then they might as well not say anything at all.
The Pledge of Allegiance is pointless to discuss, but I just felt like I wanted to rant about nothing for a bit.

I am very anti-patriotic, somewhat of an anarchist, so we probably think it's pointless for different reasons.

However, I agree, no point in saying something if you don't believe it and feel it.

All it is is pro-USA propaganda forced upon our kids.

The Pledge of Allegiance to The United States of America is at best a very pointless and idiotic thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a very patriotic person, my father was a Desert Storm vet and Air Force officer for over twenty-three years before retirement, I absolutely love every square inch of this soil; I'd die for it.
However, I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

For anyone reading this post in your own respective countries apart form the U.S., who are unaware of what the ridiculous thing is that I speak of, this is the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

It is simply a pledge that schoolchildren across the U.S. are encouraged to say first thing in the morning before studies. Why? No one can seriously answer that question without getting angry at me for being unpatriotic. I'm from heavily-conservative Texas though, so that should put things in perspective. Hell, I have to say a Texas Pledge as well; that's really bizzare considering it's the only state that I've lived in dumb enough to cook somthing like that up.

But why won't I say the pledge? If you do any research, you'll find that the Pledge was made up by some salesman named Francis Bellamy for a children's magazine as an advertising slogan celebrating Columbus Day and to try to sell American flags to schools; he was a heavy socialist using the Pledge to teach schoolchildren obedience to the state as a virtue. This is the problem that I have, I'm not the "screw the man" type of guy, but I don't live to serve the state. Come on! A socialist flag salesman? What kind of background is that? It seems stupid we should have to honor it.

I don't believe the government of this country is what makes it great. But it is the people from which its governing power is derived that makes it great. It is the sense of individual spirit in most Americans that makes my country enjoyable, despite it's faults, which no country can deny to having.

So what? I don't have to say it right? That's true, it's not compulsory, and the only people who say it are school kids that don't know what they're saying anyway. So what am I complaining about? The fact that everyone I know blindly says it without knowing where it came from or what it means! And most people who don't say it are the, "'under God' in the pledge offends me," crowd, or emo kids that think not saying it has shock value; not because there is a real principle behind it.

I don't bother explaining this to anyone because it's pointless.

But that's just the thing, no one even cares about the Pledge at all, it's not worth discussing. And if no one even pays attention to what they're saying when saying the pledge, then they might as well not say anything at all.
The Pledge of Allegiance is pointless to discuss, but I just felt like I wanted to rant about nothing for a bit.

Hmph. You make a valid point there.

"We have to have little kids pledging allegiance even before they know what pledging allegiance means." - Captain Black, Catch-22

welcome to the real world.

You do know that you are NOT required by law to say either the Texas Pledge or the Pledge of Allegiance, right? The vast majority of kids at my school refrain from saying it, and they recieve no crap for that whatsoever. Half the time the homeroom teacher forgets to lead it, anyway. (My school is a multibuilding campus, so it does not have a PA) The only thing that is required is the moment of silence, and that is both areligious and apolitical.

Heck, even when the teacher does lead the pledge, when we get to the Texas Pledge, those who do say it use the old one, not the new one that was updated to include reference to God. I.E. "I Pledge Allegience to Thee Texas, One and Indvisible." and not "I Pledge Allegience to Thee Texas, One, Under God, and Indvisible."

every day in the morning the dumbass teacher goes *insert number here* soldiers died yesterday, to try and get the class to want to say it more.

well: :upyours:

to their :sniper::mp5:

I'm not a fan of the pledge because it attempts to indoctrinate nationalism.
Chosen patriotism > forced nationalism.

I disagree with patriotism in any form. I feel that we should be taking an unbiased stance with our country (as much as possible), so any and all decisions are made as part of an intelligent opinion rather than out of love for a non-physical entity. At this point, patriotism in the United States is more like a religion than anything else.

Whenever the situation comes up, I say the pledge because I do pledge my allegiance to the country it describes (I like to think that if the US does not follow that description, then I don't have to owe my allegiance to it). But I don't think it should be forced. I'm fine with it being in schools as long as students aren't penalized for not saying it.

As an interesting side note, the "under God" part was not added until the early 1950s, to distinguish the US from "those godless Communists" (in case someone got confused and thought they were in the Soviet Union, I guess).

No, you're just right.

And I've been laughed at for stating that the public (government) school system exists primarily to indoctrinate people in the goodness of government...

The pledge is only the tip of the iceberg.

"Ultimately, The Pledge of Allegiance is coffee for elementary school students.
'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. ... Fuck! I'm in school!' " -Lewis Black.

every day in the morning the dumbass teacher goes *insert number here* soldiers died yesterday, to try and get the class to want to say it more.

well: :upyours:

to their :sniper::mp5:

While I'm perfectly fine with your sentiment, could I recommend capital letters, and please remember that the use of smileys in that way will generally reduce the respect of other posters for you.

The Pledge of Allegiance to The United States of America is at best a very pointless and idiotic thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a very patriotic person, my father was a Desert Storm vet and Air Force officer for over twenty-three years before retirement, I absolutely love every square inch of this soil; I'd die for it.
However, I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

For anyone reading this post in your own respective countries apart form the U.S., who are unaware of what the ridiculous thing is that I speak of, this is the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

It is simply a pledge that schoolchildren across the U.S. are encouraged to say first thing in the morning before studies. Why? No one can seriously answer that question without getting angry at me for being unpatriotic. I'm from heavily-conservative Texas though, so that should put things in perspective. Hell, I have to say a Texas Pledge as well; that's really bizzare considering it's the only state that I've lived in dumb enough to cook somthing like that up.

But why won't I say the pledge? If you do any research, you'll find that the Pledge was made up by some salesman named Francis Bellamy for a children's magazine as an advertising slogan celebrating Columbus Day and to try to sell American flags to schools; he was a heavy socialist using the Pledge to teach schoolchildren obedience to the state as a virtue. This is the problem that I have, I'm not the "screw the man" type of guy, but I don't live to serve the state. Come on! A socialist flag salesman? What kind of background is that? It seems stupid we should have to honor it.

I don't believe the government of this country is what makes it great. But it is the people from which its governing power is derived that makes it great. It is the sense of individual spirit in most Americans that makes my country enjoyable, despite it's faults, which no country can deny to having.

So what? I don't have to say it right? That's true, it's not compulsory, and the only people who say it are school kids that don't know what they're saying anyway. So what am I complaining about? The fact that everyone I know blindly says it without knowing where it came from or what it means! And most people who don't say it are the, "'under God' in the pledge offends me," crowd, or emo kids that think not saying it has shock value; not because there is a real principle behind it.

I don't bother explaining this to anyone because it's pointless.

But that's just the thing, no one even cares about the Pledge at all, it's not worth discussing. And if no one even pays attention to what they're saying when saying the pledge, then they might as well not say anything at all.
The Pledge of Allegiance is pointless to discuss, but I just felt like I wanted to rant about nothing for a bit.

It's perfectly fine to not say the pledge. However, a personal beef of mine is this "Am I wrong for doing/thinking/saying X" sentence structure that's becoming common. If you don't mind, I'd prefer it if you refrained from using it. Simply title the thread "I feel the Pledge of Allegiance is wrong", to take this example.

Edit: LG, I like it. Consider that swiped.

Am I a sick bastard for thinking The Pledge of Allegiance is a sick joke?
No, you're a sick bastard for entirely unrelated reasons.

(Since nobody else said it yet...)

You may think the Pledge of Allegiance is funny, but by disrespecting America you're breeding TERRORISM! (http://www.dailyhaha.com/_vids/Robot_chicken_terrorism.wmv)

Well, I used to say the pledge in school except I would replace "one nation, under g-d" with "one nation, under Flying Spaghetti Monster". But then I had the sudden realisation that my allegiance belonged to England (this was during a three week summer camp in Cambridge), I stopped saying the pledge.

Well, I used to say the pledge in school except I would replace "one nation, under g-d" with "one nation, under Flying Spaghetti Monster". But then I had the sudden realisation that my allegiance belonged to England (this was during a three week summer camp in Cambridge), I stopped saying the pledge.
You should indeed have changed it to :

"One nation, RIGHTFULLY BELONGING TO THE EMPAHR, HUZZZZZZAH!"

I find it funny that texan children first state a pledge towards the 'indivisible' US, directly followed by the same 'indivisible' pledge towards Texas. Wouldn't the first automatically include the second? It also leads one to wonder which takes precedence :p (are they expressed in order of importance?)

Ballotonia

I haven't said it since 7th grade and am starting 12th tomorrow. Once I realized what pure and utter crappy BS it was...I even wrote an essay for English satirizing it. :)

Forced loyalty oaths administered to children... What's not to love?

I offer loyalty
to a symbol
of my country
and to the federal constitutional republic
for which it represents
1 nation
under a superior being, should one exist
/0
w/ freedom + justice 4 everyone not labeled an enemy combatant

I offer loyalty
to a symbol
of my country
and to the federal constitutional republic
for which it represents
1 nation
under a superior being, should one exist
/0
w/ freedom + justice 4 everyone not labeled an enemy combatant

Extremely clever! Are you an english major?

Extremely clever! Are you an english major?

^_^
Nah, just some weirdo.

You may think the Pledge of Allegiance is funny, but by disrespecting America you're breeding TERRORISM! (http://www.dailyhaha.com/_vids/Robot_chicken_terrorism.wmv)

Lol, I was wondering when that was going to be posted.

I am not American, but excluding the 'one nation under God' bit I think it's fine, the words do really mean something good. Just a question though, when do you Americans actually have to say it, is it only when in school?

Hah. My teachers have forgotten to lead the pledge since I was in Elementary school. Nobody cares about it here. Most people I talk to just think it's meaningless. And I even live in a hick town, full of patriotic rednecks...

Lol, I was wondering when that was going to be posted.

I am not American, but excluding the 'one nation under God' bit I think it's fine, the words do really mean something good. Just a question though, when do you Americans actually have to say it, is it only when in school?

Constitutionally, no one *has* to say it, though it *is* said in many schools each morning.
The rule in my room is, "You don't have to say it; but be quiet during the pledge."

All of the students stand, and the vast majority of them say it.
I stand but do not lead it, not because I have a particular problem with it, but because I do not feel that anyone should be pressured into saying it simply because they feel I approve of it/would disapprove of not saying it. (I would recite it if I were NOT in the front of a classroom, ironically.)

All it is is pro-USA propaganda forced upon our kids.

Like any other conservative concept, trying desperately and painfully to keep 1953 alive & well.

Like any other conservative concept, trying desperately and painfully to keep 1953 alive & well.
Yes well sorry to disappoint the nostalgia conservatives, but it's no longer 1950, America is no longer on top of the world for everything.

I cannot understand this "pledge of allegiance" thingy.

The only thing that comes to my mind about that is that the US establishment tries desperately to make the kids more nationalist, to hide the fact that most of the US citizens don't give a damn about their country and government.

I always though it was kinda funny pledging allegiance to a particular piece of cloth in the corner :)

But at least it was directed toward something that represents American ideals rather than the government itself that seems to have abandoned those ideals, that is when it isn't specifically working against them...

Really, my ideas of what those ideals I was pledging allegiance to (freedom, justice, etc...) I would think the vast majority of people in *any* country would think are worthy of such, even if they would disagree about what they mean in any particular context.

As long as people realize that USA != the US government then things should be fine. And if they don't then god help us all (whichever one he actually turns out to be...)

Constitutionally, no one *has* to say it, though it *is* said in many schools each morning.
The rule in my room is, "You don't have to say it; but be quiet during the pledge."

All of the students stand, and the vast majority of them say it.
I stand but do not lead it, not because I have a particular problem with it, but because I do not feel that anyone should be pressured into saying it simply because they feel I approve of it/would disapprove of not saying it. (I would recite it if I were NOT in the front of a classroom, ironically.)

As it should be as you said Katganistan. Well said.

when do you Americans actually have to say it, is it only when in school?

As was said, we don't "have" to say it, and in many schools they don't. I went to school in a little farm town in northern Michigan and we never said it, but my niece goes to school in Detroit and she says the US pledge and the Michigan pledge.

Constitutionally, no one *has* to say it, though it *is* said in many schools each morning.
The rule in my room is, "You don't have to say it; but be quiet during the pledge."

All of the students stand, and the vast majority of them say it.
I stand but do not lead it, not because I have a particular problem with it, but because I do not feel that anyone should be pressured into saying it simply because they feel I approve of it/would disapprove of not saying it. (I would recite it if I were NOT in the front of a classroom, ironically.)

You're (presumably) able to make the distinction, as an adult, between mindless recitation and genuine comprehension. The children you teach may not be so able. Re: the Catch-22 quote.
They *are* pressured into it - other students will judge them for it, other teachers will judge them for it, the mere fact of its repetition, every single school day for more than a decade, makes it a form of direct indoctrination.

How is the Pledge of Allegiance any different from a schoolchild being able to recite the McDonalds tagline "Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun."?

Especially given that the origin of the phrase is as cynical, exploitative and manipulative as the Coca-Cola company's invention of Santa Claus as a merchandising technique. Sure, adults (may) know the origin of 'Santa', but does the average child have any comprehension of the manipulation they're being subjected to through overwhelming media repetition and reinforcement?

When my primary school included a section on religion, my parents were informed about this curriculum item, and asked to give consent before I received any such 'teaching' within a school environment. I'm talking about a New Zealand primary school in the late 1970s!

Some aspects of school teachings are fundamental. Arithmetic is not subject to political bias: 2 + 2 = 4, irrespective of the personal beliefs of the teacher in question. But a mindlessly nationalistic recitation, every day for the entirety of your school life, starting at the age of 5 (in NZ, I'm assuming the same for other Western nations), is an obscenity.

(It's 3am where I am, so I'm off to bed - apologies for not responding until after I've slept).

starting at the age of 5 (in NZ, I'm assuming the same for other Western nations), is an obscenity.

Well, never... for Belgium and Denmark. There simply isn't any pledge to speak of.

And quite honestly, why should there be?

I went to a school in the states for three days once (visiting). And no, I didn't stand up nor recite the pledge. Such nationalism is, to me, merely remnants of Napoleon's antics.

All it is is pro-USA propaganda forced upon our kids.

American propaganda forced on American kids...goodness, what is the world coming to?

Well, never... for Belgium and Denmark. There simply isn't any pledge to speak of.

And quite honestly, why should there be?

I went to a school in the states for three days once (visiting). And no, I didn't stand up nor recite the pledge. Such nationalism is, to me, merely remnants of Napoleon's antics.

Sorry, to clarify: I meant the age for starting school in NZ is five, I don't know if that's true elsewhere. There's no pledge in NZ schools either.

"Ultimately, The Pledge of Allegiance is coffee for elementary school students.
'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. ... Fuck! I'm in school!' " -Lewis Black.

It'd be funnier if it wasn't true. :p

I always though it was kinda funny pledging allegiance to a particular piece of cloth in the corner :)

But at least it was directed toward something that represents American ideals rather than the government itself that seems to have abandoned those ideals, that is when it isn't specifically working against them...

Really, my ideas of what those ideals I was pledging allegiance to (freedom, justice, etc...) I would think the vast majority of people in *any* country would think are worthy of such, even if they would disagree about what they mean in any particular context.

As long as people realize that USA != the US government then things should be fine. And if they don't then god help us all (whichever one he actually turns out to be...)
This is why I say the pledge: I don't feel I'm offering myself up to serve in Iraq, but rather pledging to uphold values the country is based on. I have no problem with that.

We need the pledge to indoctrinate these secessionist confederates into believing the US is indivisible.

We need the pledge to indoctrinate these secessionist confederates into believing the US is indivisible.

The word "indivisible" the second thing I dislike about the Pledge, following the "under God" part.

I don't see what the fuss is about. I say it loud and proud every day, with the exception of the 'God' bit.

I disagree with patriotism in any form. I feel that we should be taking an unbiased stance with our country (as much as possible), so any and all decisions are made as part of an intelligent opinion rather than out of love for a non-physical entity. At this point, patriotism in the United States is more like a religion than anything else.


I kind of agree with you on that last part. However, my viewpoint is that it doesn't matter the origin of the pledge, it is what it has come to mean in the minds of all patriots. Take the Christian cross for example, it was a violent torture/death device used by pagans to hang criminals. However, it has become the very symbol for Christianity which is (supposed to be) a peaceful religion. simply because of one mans death upon it.

Believe it or not, I am a Democrat.

The word "indivisible" the second thing I dislike about the Pledge, following the "under God" part.

I wish both things were seriously being considered when i got my willy hood snipped as a tot.
:(

The parents pay the moyal and he ... gets to keep the tip!

I don't see what the fuss is about. I say it loud and proud every day, with the exception of the 'God' bit.

"Bob" makes an affable (and sometimes eerily accurate) substitution.

Sorry, to clarify: I meant the age for starting school in NZ is five, I don't know if that's true elsewhere. There's no pledge in NZ schools either.

Oooh, I was worried there for a moment.

As for starting ages, it tends to vary between 4 (France) and 6 (Denmark), in the european countries anyway. Can't really say for sure though.

I pledge allegiance to the flag...and to the republic...for which in my hands...with liberty and nachos...hehehehe...nachos...yeah, nachos for all !



Imho the whole concept of this pledge is silly.

“one nation, under god…”

And what about atheist people? Do they sing another ritual nation song?

“one nation, under no god…”

Or what about people who believe in several gods, who have not a monotheist religion?

Can they sing “one nation, under the gods…” ?

My favorite pledge was in the strip Non Sequitur (http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/this_version_of_the_pledge_of_allegiance_will_never_work/). Danae stands and recites

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the Corporate States of America.
And to the Republicans for which it stands,
one nation, under debt, easily divisible,
with liberty and justice for oil.

Then her father says, "Really have your heart set on a career in network news, eh?"

Danae replies, "Hey, someone has to be the next Katie Couric."

I don't use words to say the pledge. I prefer to express the pledge of allegiance through interpretive dance. It turns out looking very much like two male dogs mating. It's taken me years to perfect and a lot of money spent on props and elaborate costumes.

In our country even the politicians do not know the words of the national anthem.

I’m proud about the fact that I’m not proud about my country.

I’m a surrealist.

My mother, she grew up in South Africa back in the 50ties and 60ties, told me that she sung the national hymn each morning while raising the flag as well.

There’s something dirty on this kind of behaviour. A Nazi smell.

I don't use words to say the pledge. I prefer to express the pledge of allegiance through interpretive dance. It turns out looking very much like two male dogs mating. It's taken me years to perfect and a lot of money spent on props and elaborate costumes.

Teh Interwebs demand photos.

I think for a country that discriminates against people on the basis of something as private and irrelevant as their sexual orientation, to call itself "the land of free" and claim "liberty and justice for all" is a joke.

“one nation, under god…”

And what about atheist people? Do they sing another ritual nation song?

“one nation, under no god…”

Or what about people who believe in several gods, who have not a monotheist religion?

Can they sing “one nation, under the gods…” ?

What about the Treaty Of Tripoli that says America is most certainly not one nation under any god or gods?

I'm not a fan of the pledge because it attempts to indoctrinate nationalism.
Chosen patriotism > forced nationalism.

what he said.

The Pledge of Allegiance to The United States of America is at best a very pointless and idiotic thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a very patriotic person, my father was a Desert Storm vet and Air Force officer for over twenty-three years before retirement, I absolutely love every square inch of this soil; I'd die for it.
However, I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance.

For anyone reading this post in your own respective countries apart form the U.S., who are unaware of what the ridiculous thing is that I speak of, this is the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

It is simply a pledge that schoolchildren across the U.S. are encouraged to say first thing in the morning before studies. Why? No one can seriously answer that question without getting angry at me for being unpatriotic. I'm from heavily-conservative Texas though, so that should put things in perspective. Hell, I have to say a Texas Pledge as well; that's really bizzare considering it's the only state that I've lived in dumb enough to cook somthing like that up.

But why won't I say the pledge? If you do any research, you'll find that the Pledge was made up by some salesman named Francis Bellamy for a children's magazine as an advertising slogan celebrating Columbus Day and to try to sell American flags to schools; he was a heavy socialist using the Pledge to teach schoolchildren obedience to the state as a virtue. This is the problem that I have, I'm not the "screw the man" type of guy, but I don't live to serve the state. Come on! A socialist flag salesman? What kind of background is that? It seems stupid we should have to honor it.

I don't believe the government of this country is what makes it great. But it is the people from which its governing power is derived that makes it great. It is the sense of individual spirit in most Americans that makes my country enjoyable, despite it's faults, which no country can deny to having.

So what? I don't have to say it right? That's true, it's not compulsory, and the only people who say it are school kids that don't know what they're saying anyway. So what am I complaining about? The fact that everyone I know blindly says it without knowing where it came from or what it means! And most people who don't say it are the, "'under God' in the pledge offends me," crowd, or emo kids that think not saying it has shock value; not because there is a real principle behind it.

I don't bother explaining this to anyone because it's pointless.

But that's just the thing, no one even cares about the Pledge at all, it's not worth discussing. And if no one even pays attention to what they're saying when saying the pledge, then they might as well not say anything at all.
The Pledge of Allegiance is pointless to discuss, but I just felt like I wanted to rant about nothing for a bit.

Last time we did something like that in my home country it resulted in the whole of Europe being bombed to smithereens. So I tend to stay away from pledging allegiance to anyone or anything, least of all a flag or country.