NationStates Jolt Archive

You know, I have some questions about the Christian God as written in the Bible. In the Old Testament in the book of Exodus, it's written that Yahweh has harden the heart of the Pharaoh every time Moses asked him to let his people go out into the desert to sacrifice an offering to Yahweh. Ok, why would Yahweh mess around with his people like this? I mean the Hebrew weren't happy, Moses and the guy that was with him wasn't happy, and I mean comon. It's like he was messing around with Moses. "Hehe, first I'll tell him to go free his people, but I'll also harden the Pharaoh heart! Did he have the 10 plagues taking up room in Heaven and couldn't find an excuse to use them?

Now we both know that before Jesus Christ came down, died, buried, and rose again in fulfillment of the prophecies told in the Old Testament However, why would God go through all this mess of creating a messiah to save the world from damnation when he could've at least contact one of his faithful follower and have them write down a new covenant. Seeing how Jesus is supposed to be God in human form, did he just have a B&M fetish?

My final question is, alot of people like to contribute 'miracles' that happen to them in their regular lives as the work of God. However, how many of those are actually work of human? I mean let's say that I need money, but no one knows. I pray about it, and then I go to Wal-Mart in dirty ragged clothes. My neighbor sees me and concludes that I must be having financial trouble, (plus the big yard sale) and offers to help.

Just things that enter into my mind. :)

Heres another mind fuck. Angels have no free will, so how could Lucifer have led his revolt?

Seeing how Jesus is supposed to be God in human form, did he just have a B&M fetish?
B&M? Is this some new fetish of which I was not informed?
I guess you meant either S&M or BDSM (which, according to wiki, is just short for B&D, D&S, and S&M).
I'd also like to say that I now hate you, because it is your fault that I just typed "BDSM" into Google and my name is now almost certainly going down in some sort of international master list of perverts.

B&M? Is this some new fetish of which I was not informed?
I guess you meant either S&M or BDSM (which, according to wiki, is just short for B&D, D&S, and S&M).
I'd also like to say that I now hate you, because it is your fault that I just typed "BDSM" into Google and my name is now almost certainly going down in some sort of international master list of perverts.

*laughs* Welcome to the club! *rubs hands together evilly*

I have the answer to all of your questions!

You see, a lot of different fuckers with a lot of different motivations all wrote the different parts of the Bible so its all just a lot of different opinions.

Heres another mind fuck. Angels have no free will, so how could Lucifer have led his revolt?

Lucifer isn't identified as an angel. He was identified as a cherub.

Lucifer isn't identified as an angel. He was identified as a cherub.

Whatever, still has no free will. And how could the other fallen angels joined in the revolt if they had no free will?

Lucifer isn't identified as an angel. He was identified as a cherub.

actually I was pretty sure he was a seripham.

B&M? Is this some new fetish of which I was not informed?
I guess you meant either S&M or BDSM (which, according to wiki, is just short for B&D, D&S, and S&M).
I'd also like to say that I now hate you, because it is your fault that I just typed "BDSM" into Google and my name is now almost certainly going down in some sort of international master list of perverts.

That's an interesting definition of "perversion" you have there...

I'd also like to say that I now hate you, because it is your fault that I just typed "BDSM" into Google and my name is now almost certainly going down in some sort of international master list of perverts.

If you think that's perverted, well...you aint seem some of the shit I've seen.

Whatever, still has no free will. And how could the other fallen angels joined in the revolt if they had no free will?

Nope. Cherubim have free will.

actually I was pretty sure he was a seripham.

Nope. Ezekiel 28:12-16 identifies Lucifer as a cherub.

EDIT: I am not a theist, my observations are from a purely secular reading of the Bible.

Nope. Cherubim have free will.



Nope. Ezekiel 28:12-16 identifies Lucifer as a cherub.

EDIT: I am not a theist, my observations are from a purely secular reading of the Bible.

Hrm, wiki notes that ezekiel 28:16 identifies him as a cherub OR seraph

That's an interesting definition of "perversion" you have there...
A deviation from sexual normality that many would refer to as extreme, what is so unusual about that defintion? Ball gags and chains aren't the sexual playthings of the mainstream.
If you think that's perverted, well...you aint seem some of the shit I've seen.
Given that we are two different people, it is entirely probable that there are places where our experiences of the world fail to overlap. In fact, one might argue that had I seen the exact same "shit" you have seen, we wouldn't qualify as seperate persons.
I've seen more than I wanted to, and I wanted to see a fair amount more than I should have. I didn't suggest that BDSM-fetishists were suffering from some sort of psychosexual ailment that required immediate treatment, I merely suggested that one wouldn't want their elderly grandmother or employer knowing they were interested in it.

A deviation from sexual normality that many would refer to as extreme, what is so unusual about that defintion? Ball gags and chains aren't the sexual playthings of the mainstream.

I think such things are FAR more common than you might think they are.

I was under the impression that Lucifer was a Seraph.

Wow, 13 post and only one of them addresses the original topic.

Hrm, wiki notes that ezekiel 28:16 identifies him as a cherub OR seraph

Uh, where?

28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Pretty straightforward. No mention of Seraphim in Ezekiel 28.

Ball gags and chains aren't the sexual playthings of the mainstream...


Ah. It sounds as if, basically, you're using the most common definition of "perversion": "any sexual act which I, personally, am not so much into." :p

(I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant well, but just so's you know, "pervert" has a pretty strong negative connotation, and you just applied it to a LOT of people, myself included. That sort of thing is likely to ruffle some feathers a bit.)

Wow, 13 post and only one of them addresses the original topic.

Welcome to NSG. ;)

Wow, 13 post and only one of them addresses the original topic.

what exactly do you want, you're asking us to justify the actions of an entity who may or may not exist, and if it exists may or may not act as described and, if it does, is so beyond our comprehention that attempts to justify such behavior are akin to an ant trying to explain why people do the things they do.

How really do you expect us to justify the actions of god?

God: Yayz. I created peepolz.

Devil: Yay. I go maek dem bad now. i ruin yor werk. lolz.

God: Damn it. It took me an entire business week to make it so they could survive and all Saturday just making the life forms. Also, aren't you supposed to be eternally damned? Who let you out?

angel: My bad.


In the Old Testament, God was always pissed off because Satan was trying to corrupt everything. In the New Testament, it's like God just had enough. Flooding everything and starting over didn't work. Destroying cities and turning a woman into salt didn't work. Making the Jews walk through the desert for forty years (maybe it was just five minutes that felt like 40 years. Deserts aren't exactly pleasant) didn't work. I think God's just letting everything run on auto-pilot now.


As for Lucifer, angels and cheribs do have free will. Some just aren't as corrupted as others.

You know, I have some questions about the Christian God as written in the Bible. In the Old Testament in the book of Exodus, it's written that Yahweh has harden the heart of the Pharaoh every time Moses asked him to let his people go out into the desert to sacrifice an offering to Yahweh. Ok, why would Yahweh mess around with his people like this? I mean the Hebrew weren't happy, Moses and the guy that was with him wasn't happy, and I mean comon. It's like he was messing around with Moses. "Hehe, first I'll tell him to go free his people, but I'll also harden the Pharaoh heart! Did he have the 10 plagues taking up room in Heaven and couldn't find an excuse to use them? because the purpose was not just to show the power of God and the Powerlessness of the Pharoh's Gods to the Pharoh, but to all of Egypt.

Now we both know that before Jesus Christ came down, died, buried, and rose again in fulfillment of the prophecies told in the Old Testament However, why would God go through all this mess of creating a messiah to save the world from damnation when he could've at least contact one of his faithful follower and have them write down a new covenant. Seeing how Jesus is supposed to be God in human form, did he just have a B&M fetish? nope, God had several Prophets, and you know how well those were recieved by the clergy. heck, you can read how the Apostles and followers after Jesus' assension were treated.

My final question is, alot of people like to contribute 'miracles' that happen to them in their regular lives as the work of God. However, how many of those are actually work of human? I mean let's say that I need money, but no one knows. I pray about it, and then I go to Wal-Mart in dirty ragged clothes. My neighbor sees me and concludes that I must be having financial trouble, (plus the big yard sale) and offers to help.

Just things that enter into my mind. :) "no one knows." so God makes the neighbor aware of your plight by popping the idea that your big yard sale and ratty clothes have nothing to do with spring cleaning or possibly moving out, but that you need financial help. Dispite your pride in not asking for help, God provided the opportunity for someone to see your plight and step up. This is assuming that your financial plight is gradual, where you had ample opportunities to ask and seek help.

think about how Futurama put it. "when done properly, people will wonder if you did anything at all."

The Bible is good for a bit of late night fiction.

Heres another mind fuck. Angels have no free will, so how could Lucifer have led his revolt?

By the will of God, since Lucifer *sic* was God's greatest sensibility, advocacy.
muhmuhmentalmuhmuhmasturbation.

think about how Futurama put it. "when done properly, people will wonder if you did anything at all."

Fry: Is there anything religion can do to help me find my friend?
Pastor: Well, we could join together in prayer.
Fry: Uh huh, but is there anything useful we can do?
Pastor: ...No.
...
Bender: Who would have known playing God could have such terrible consequences?
...
Bender: So, do you know what I'm gonna do before I do it?
God: Yes.
Bender: What if I do something different?
God: Then I don't know that.
...
Malakai: I beseech thee, rise up against them, smite someone who deserves it for once.
The coolest part about that same episode .... Malachi 2 - 2:3.

2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
2:5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

I'd also like to say that I now hate you, because it is your fault that I just typed "BDSM" into Google and my name is now almost certainly going down in some sort of international master list of perverts.

Ah, embrace your destiny. As Agent Smith put it so sweetly, That, Mr. Anderson, is the sound of inevitability.

Either there or here, it woulda gotcha sooner or later.

to your second question, it all really depends on whether or not you accept jesus as a prophet of god, his son, or the incarnation of god.That part never really made sense to me either... If he died for our sins.. then how could judas have betrayed him?if he was to die for our sins, then Judas was helping him achieve that, and thus he is as much a saviour of man as jesus... or jesus was never intended to die upon the cross and thus didn't really redeem man's sins did he?

To the third

Well... god helps those who help themselves! it's only a miracle of god if it's unexplicable, or if you through your own actions, bring help upon yourself... yeah.. it's confusing, but it's a faith. all religions are just as perplexing, it's all a matter of whether or not to accept them

Wow, 13 post and only one of them addresses the original topic.

JuNii tried admirably.

You know, I have some questions about the Christian God as written in the Bible. In the Old Testament in the book of Exodus, it's written that Yahweh has harden the heart of the Pharaoh every time Moses asked him to let his people go out into the desert to sacrifice an offering to Yahweh. Ok, why would Yahweh mess around with his people like this? I mean the Hebrew weren't happy, Moses and the guy that was with him wasn't happy, and I mean comon. It's like he was messing around with Moses. "Hehe, first I'll tell him to go free his people, but I'll also harden the Pharaoh heart! Did he have the 10 plagues taking up room in Heaven and couldn't find an excuse to use them?

Now we both know that before Jesus Christ came down, died, buried, and rose again in fulfillment of the prophecies told in the Old Testament However, why would God go through all this mess of creating a messiah to save the world from damnation when he could've at least contact one of his faithful follower and have them write down a new covenant. Seeing how Jesus is supposed to be God in human form, did he just have a B&M fetish?

My final question is, alot of people like to contribute 'miracles' that happen to them in their regular lives as the work of God. However, how many of those are actually work of human? I mean let's say that I need money, but no one knows. I pray about it, and then I go to Wal-Mart in dirty ragged clothes. My neighbor sees me and concludes that I must be having financial trouble, (plus the big yard sale) and offers to help.

Just things that enter into my mind. :)

Here's a classic story;

A terrible flood sweeps across a midwest town. One man, a devout christian gets trapped in his house. After praying, he heads for the second floor. A neighbor happens by in a boat and offers him help in evacuating. He refuses and says, "I'm not worried. God will save me."
He climbs onto the roof as a second boats happens by. Again, the neighbor in the boat offers him a ride away from the flood. He shakes his head and says, "I'm not worried. God will save me."
The water climbs higher and the man is moments from being swept away. A helicopter flies low and hovers above him, offering him a rope ladder. He bats the ladder away and says to himself, "I have faith that God will save me."
Well, he drowns and ends up in Heaven soaking wet and face to face with God. He asks angrily, "I had faith, God! Why didn't you save me?" God rolls His eyes and replies," I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What were you waiting for, a flaming chariot?!?"

:D

Final Fantasy VII identifies Sephiroth as the One Winged Angel... wait, what are we talking about again?

Wow, 13 post and only one of them addresses the original topic.that's due to the nature of that original topic. :D

Uh, where?

28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Pretty straightforward. No mention of Seraphim in Ezekiel 28.No mention of Satan in Ezekiel 28. What are you folks talking about?

No mention of Satan in Ezekiel 28. What are you folks talking about?

Indirectly, there is. He is addressed as the "anointed cherub" that "wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Indirectly, there is. He is addressed as the "anointed cherub" that "wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."Wtf? Ezekiel is talking about the king of Tyre*.

* which is interesting, because Tyros is named after Tylos/Dilmun, the (second) paradise of Mesopotamian/Phoenician lore.

what exactly do you want, you're asking us to justify the actions of an entity who may or may not exist, and if it exists may or may not act as described and, if it does, is so beyond our comprehention that attempts to justify such behavior are akin to an ant trying to explain why people do the things they do.

How really do you expect us to justify the actions of god?
thank you. ;)

Wtf? Ezekiel is talking about the king of Tyre*.

* which is interesting, because Tyros is named after Tylos/Dilmun, the (second) paradise of Mesopotamian/Phoenician lore.

According to some Christian mythology, the king of Tyrus was (masquerading as) Satan. At the very least he was a fallen cherub, and therefore not mortal.

According to some Christian mythology, the king of Tyrus was (masquerading as) Satan. At the very least he was a fallen cherub, and therefore not mortal.Yet another interpretation not supported by the text. Being anointed like a cherub does not make him a cherub.

Yet another interpretation not supported by the text. Being anointed like a cherub does not make him a cherub.

Huh? He's not anointed as a cherub, he's the "anointed cherub". In any case I'm ambivalent; these are not my interpretations. The Bible is little more than idle curiosity to me.

-snip-
There are suggestions within abrahamic scripture itself that "God" is not correctly portrayed, and indeed can never be correctly depicted, for depiction will always be self-contradictory. There are two highly heretical ways of reading this aspect of scripture. One is that we are being consciously prevented from acquiring a conceptual image of divinity. The other is that God is engaged in an eternal tension and conflict with himself.

Try reading it with those different mindsets in mind. It's totally unChristian, but an immensely interesting exercise.

meh, Christianity ceased being a legitimate spiritual belief and became a political ideology the second Constantine converted and it become the state religion.

All this talk about Satan brings to mind the problem I've always had with the whole issue:
That of how come God didn't see it (Lucifer's fall) coming?

Either he didn't, which makes God decidedly un-omniscient.
Or he did, in which case he let it happen knowing full well the long-term consequences (millions being tempted into sin, and from there into eternal damnation) would be, yet did nothing to stop it. Which makes him a truly evil bastard, far worse than Lucifer.

All this talk about Satan brings to mind the problem I've always had with the whole issue:
That of how come God didn't see it (Lucifer's fall) coming?

Either he didn't, which makes God decidedly un-omniscient.
Or he did, in which case he let it happen knowing full well the long-term consequences (millions being tempted into sin, and from there into eternal damnation) would be, yet did nothing to stop it. Which makes him a truly evil bastard, far worse than Lucifer.

As UB has already pointed out, the 'Lucifer' referred to in the text is neither angel nor devil - he was merely the King of Tyre.

The 'fall' that people talk about is prophetic... it's from Revelation. A classic case of two texts being conflated. People see a prophecy of a 'fall' in the New Testament, and the account of a different 'fall' in the Old Testament.. and somehow assume they are talking about the same thing.

I was under the impression that Lucifer was a Seraph.

I thought Lucifer was the anti-pasta. At least, that is what I get from my research into the FSM.

meh, Christianity ceased being a legitimate spiritual belief and became a political ideology the second Constantine converted and it become the state religion.
Off-topic but true...


Back to topic: I guess God wanted to show off his 1337 powers :) or thought there would be too much resistence in the egyptian population otherwise...

All this talk about Satan brings to mind the problem I've always had with the whole issue:
That of how come God didn't see it (Lucifer's fall) coming?




'Cause the whole thing is just plain silly.

All this talk about Satan brings to mind the problem I've always had with the whole issue:
That of how come God didn't see it (Lucifer's fall) coming?

Either he didn't, which makes God decidedly un-omniscient.
Or he did, in which case he let it happen knowing full well the long-term consequences (millions being tempted into sin, and from there into eternal damnation) would be, yet did nothing to stop it. Which makes him a truly evil bastard, far worse than Lucifer.



Oh he saw it coming.


He just didn't believe it. ^_^

I thought Lucifer was the anti-pasta. At least, that is what I get from my research into the FSM.

Christianity would be far more successful if it offered a beer volcano and a stripper factory in the afterlife, but that would be plagerism. :D

Not that the Abrahamic religions haven't stolen ideas from each other over the last few milleniums.

oh, another question to add.


Why would God send and evil spirit to make some attempt murder?


I forget the verse...It is some where in the story about Dave and Jonathan. (A story that some view as a homosexual relationship in the bible.)

The word "Lucifer" was never meant to mean Satan, the Accuser/Adversary. Lucifer is the morning star, vanguard of the sun.

Lucifer isn't identified as an angel. He was identified as a cherub.

why is he then a fallen Angel, isn't a cherub an immature something that shoots arrows into peoples buttocks ?

why is he then a fallen Angel, isn't a cherub an immature something that shoots arrows into peoples buttocks ?No. It's more something like this:

http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Essays/kerub.gif

The Bible is good for a bit of late night fiction.

LOL, It puts me too sleep, the plot sucks, we already know who did it and they never catch him/her.

The word "Lucifer" was never meant to mean Satan, the Accuser/Adversary. Lucifer is the morning star, vanguard of the sun.

In Dutch, lucifer means a match, as in what we use to light a fire or a smoke; Can't all be about religion,

Pharoh was hard hearted, not because God wanted it, but because God gave us free will. (that includes the pharoh) And Moses didnt want to go out into the desert to give God a sacrifice, he wanted pharoh to release the hebrew people.

Jesus Christ came down to earth because he loves us, and to forgive our sins. Have you ever heard the saying if you want something right you have to do it yourself?

Pharoh was hard hearted, not because God wanted it, but because God gave us free will. (that includes the pharoh) And Moses didnt want to go out into the desert to give God a sacrifice, he wanted pharoh to release the hebrew people.

Uhm, I'm pretty sure the act of God specifically hardening someone's heart in order to get his point across negates your theory of "free will"


Exodus 4:21- And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. (KJV)


Yeah, that pretty much specifically says that God hardened pharaoh's heart, not that the pharaoh was already hard hearted. Don't twist the bible to say what you want it to, the facts will be sufficient enough.

You know, I have some questions about the Christian God as written in the Bible. In the Old Testament in the book of Exodus, it's written that Yahweh has harden the heart of the Pharaoh every time Moses asked him to let his people go out into the desert to sacrifice an offering to Yahweh. As I recall, it was to give people a huge disincentive to not mess with the Jews.
If they'd let the Jews go the first time, someone else wouldn't have any qualms about enslaving them again. So if the enslaving of Jews is associated with lots of plagues, people wouldn't be so quick to do it the next time.

Don't twist the bible to say what you want it to, the facts will be sufficient enough.
That line of thinking is only appropriate when one views the bible as authoritive and/or historical. If, as would seem to be emerging as the predominant viewpoint, scripture is largely allegorical, "twisting" is essentially the extent of the bible's application.

As I recall, it was to give people a huge disincentive to not mess with the Jews.
If they'd let the Jews go the first time, someone else wouldn't have any qualms about enslaving them again. So if the enslaving of Jews is associated with lots of plagues, people wouldn't be so quick to do it the next time.

That doesn't make any sense.


Clearly, God has no qualms about infringing upon people's "free will" as is exhibited in Exodus 4:21. So God doesn't need to teach anyone a lesson, because if any leader even thinks about enslaving the Jews, all God would have to do is "soften" his heart and make the leader change his mind.

Or can God only harden hearts?

Again, your theory doesn't hold much water. Because you would think that God would have rather chosen a way that would hurt less people (softening hearts) than a way that would make a great story and hurt countless people (not to mention killing the Pharoah's first born, where are the pro-life advocates now?).

That line of thinking is only appropriate when one views the bible as authoritive and/or historical. If, as would seem to be emerging as the predominant viewpoint, scripture is largely allegorical, "twisting" is essentially the extent of the bible's application.

We're not talking about a gray area, or some philisophical grand question. The bible specifically says that God said that he hardened someone's heart.


To deny/alter that fact to better fit one's own beliefs is twisting.

We're not talking about a gray area, or some philisophical grand question. The bible specifically says that God said that he hardened someone's heart.

To deny/alter that fact to better fit one's own beliefs is twisting.
It is twisting, if not actually constructing a different narrative altogether, but as I say, we are at liberty to twist as we see fit when it comes to using allegorical scripture to discuss concepts underlying it. Consider it tangential, if you feel that it seems intellectually repugnant to allow us to branch away from that which is on paper.

It is twisting, if not actually constructing a different narrative altogether, but as I say, we are at liberty to twist as we see fit when it comes to using allegorical scripture to discuss concepts underlying it. Consider it tangential, if you feel that it seems intellectually repugnant to allow us to branch away from that which is on paper.

True


But the problem is that Brusia countered what the bible said when it comes to the details of events (not the morals that are to be acquired by them, be it a proverb or actual event). And he has nothing to back up this particular alteration of facts, even in the face of outright contradiction by the bible itself.

He wasn't interpreting a moral of a biblical story, he was changing the facts of an event, be it actual or mythical. That's twisting not to interpret, but to justify a belief with false pretenses.

It is twisting, if not actually constructing a different narrative altogether, but as I say, we are at liberty to twist as we see fit when it comes to using allegorical scripture to discuss concepts underlying it. Consider it tangential, if you feel that it seems intellectually repugnant to allow us to branch away from that which is on paper.Allegorical scripture?? Allegory for what?

My final question is, alot of people like to contribute 'miracles' that happen to them in their regular lives as the work of God. However, how many of those are actually work of human? I mean let's say that I need money, but no one knows. I pray about it, and then I go to Wal-Mart in dirty ragged clothes. My neighbor sees me and concludes that I must be having financial trouble, (plus the big yard sale) and offers to help.

Just things that enter into my mind. :)
I think people too often think of "miracles" as God making people speak in tongues or raising the dead. In Did Adam and Eve Have Navels?, Martin Gardner (who is theist, but not Christian) quotes someone who when talking about evolution vs. creationism, said "There doesn't have to be one specific point. The whole thing is a miracle." (I'm paraphrasing).

This may seem off-topic, but I think it fits with what your saying: while God may not have directly told your neighbor to help you out or fear His wrath, the fact you are alive, have a kind neighbor, and live in an affluent society shouldn't be taken for granted.

EDIT: I keep referring to "you" based on the hypothetical situation. I'm assuming it's not true, and don't mean to suggest it is.

I think people too often think of "miracles" as God making people speak in tongues or raising the dead. In Did Adam and Eve Have Navels?, Martin Gardner (who is theist, but not Christian) quotes someone who when talking about evolution vs. creationism, said "There doesn't have to be one specific point. The whole thing is a miracle." (I'm paraphrasing).

This may seem off-topic, but I think it fits with what your saying: while God may not have directly told your neighbor to help you out or fear His wrath, the fact you are alive, have a kind neighbor, and live in an affluent society shouldn't be taken for granted.What does God have to do with that?

Anyone here to once read Revelations? I swear I think Paul may have been toting the bong while he wrote that.

According to some Christian mythology, the king of Tyrus was (masquerading as) Satan.
Yeah, just like those dudes down at the shelter masquerading as Jesus.

Yet another interpretation not supported by the text. Being anointed like a cherub does not make him a cherub.

Yeah. Just cuz some posters like to dress up like the maligned perception of cherubim, or maybe they're hung like them, DOESN'T make them cherubim.

oh, another question to add.
Why would God send and evil spirit to make some attempt murder?


Because said god is a coward.

For consideration:
32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. (Moses grows some balls!)
32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swearest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Yes ... "human" intervention to stop a bloodthirsty "god".

Anyone here to once read Revelations? I swear I think Paul may have been toting the bong while he wrote that.

john

although most likely not the apostle nor the writer of the gospel

it was about the fall of the roman empire. as a "vision" we can only imagine what substance might have helped him along.

john

although most likely not the apostle nor the writer of the gospel

it was about the fall of the roman empire. as a "vision" we can only imagine what substance might have helped him along.

shh.....he prefers ignorance.

No probs for Jehovah to harden Pharoah's heart if you are some ancient Hebrew (or even modern American fundamentalist) for whom everything that happens is Jehovah's Will and that is beyond human concepts of good or evil. In my opinion, this is what the New Testament encapsulates, that gods, like Roman Emperors, cannot claim exemption from the ethics they demand of us.

Personally, I side with the Gnostics but not literally. The biblical Jehovah is a symbol of the bloody awful nature red in tooth and claw world of experience, the Supreme God Beyond gods symbolises the perfection of whatever comes deeper than quantum physics, but with a twist that It may in some sense be regarded 'organically'. Life is shit. Buddhism says to Get Out. Gnostic Christianity says not to be controlled and to get mentally out is one small part in liberating the whole of existence from succumbing to the superficial and to directing that superficial chaos to reflect the perfection at its 'heart'. We're a sight better than the Dark Ages and they than the Classical Ages for all our faults, and only a madman would prefer the world of T.Rex (not quite true: I like Marc Bolan!) re-enacted in so much macho crap.

No probs for Jehovah to harden Pharoah's heart if you are some ancient Hebrew (or even modern American fundamentalist) for whom everything that happens is Jehovah's Will and that is beyond human concepts of good or evil. In my opinion, this is what the New Testament encapsulates, that gods, like Roman Emperors, cannot claim exemption from the ethics they demand of us.

Personally, I side with the Gnostics but not literally. The biblical Jehovah is a symbol of the bloody awful nature red in tooth and claw world of experience, the Supreme God Beyond gods symbolises the perfection of whatever comes deeper than quantum physics, but with a twist that It may in some sense be regarded 'organically'. Life is shit. Buddhism says to Get Out. Gnostic Christianity says not to be controlled and to get mentally out is one small part in liberating the whole of existence from succumbing to the superficial and to directing that superficial chaos to reflect the perfection at its 'heart'. We're a sight better than the Dark Ages and they than the Classical Ages for all our faults, and only a madman would prefer the world of T.Rex (not quite true: I like Marc Bolan!) re-enacted in so much macho crap.

welcome to NSG!

that is the most thoughtful first post i have ever had the pleasure to read.

It was also written in exile, while wrapped up in fever, and says pretty clearly that it was a vision.

I'm sure there's a few posters here whose visions could result in some pretty twisted cults as well. :rolleyes:

yeah but if they posted about it some smartass would tell them to get a blog.

john

although most likely not the apostle nor the writer of the gospel

it was about the fall of the roman empire. as a "vision" we can only imagine what substance might have helped him along.

It was also written in exile, while wrapped up in fever, and says pretty clearly that it was a vision.

I'm sure there's a few posters here whose visions could result in some pretty twisted cults as well. :rolleyes:

Allegorical scripture?? Allegory for what?

All scripture, as all religion, is allegory of reality.

hehe, religion and internets

All scripture, as all religion, is allegory of reality.
I think I should interrupt you there, you should not confuse applicability with allegory, while allegory makes one a slave to current prejudices and biases, applicability is about universal themes, so they are still relevant today in issues and will be relevant also for decades into the future.

I think I should interrupt you there, you should not confuse applicability with allegory, while allegory makes one a slave to current prejudices and biases, applicability is about universal themes, so they are still relevant today in issues and will be relevant also for decades into the future.

I'm not clear on the distinction you draw between the allegory and 'applicability'. How does allegory make one a slave?