NationStates Jolt Archive

The Times has the story

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2402973.ece

Its okay, more than half of American churches are controlled by idiots.

That means half aren't. You should be more optimistic.

Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values

So? almost half of american churces are under the control of a hardline evangelical sect whose leading preachers loathe western values like freedom of choice, freedom of of religion and freedom of sexual expression.

So? almost half of american churces are under the control of a hardline evangelical sect whose leading preachers loathe western values like freedom of choice, freedom of of religion and freedom of sexual expression.

Source?

I wonder if it would help if the government required that every sermon speak out againt religious violence...

I wonder if it would help if the government required that every sermon speak out againt religious violence...

I suppose that would go against freedom of religion, or do they not have that in the UK?

They probably do, but seeing as it applies to EVERY religion...

Source?

Common sense? Reality?

Plus America's extremists don't need to blow their opponents up, they just elect people to do it for them.

Common sense? Reality?

Plus America's extremists don't need to blow their opponents up, they just elect people to do it for them.

You can't cite "common sense" in a paper.

Source?

I wonder if it would help if the government required that every sermon speak out againt religious violence...
This would be enforced quite how?
I suppose that would go against freedom of religion, or do they not have that in the UK?
...

We have as much, or more, freedom of almost anything other than 'the freedom to own guns for the kicks and giggles of it' than you guys over the pond ;)

The Times has the story

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2402973.ece
Erm it doesn't actually prove anything.

All it says is "some horrible bastard MIGHT get in power". Which is somewhat different to "already done, obviously, carbombs and such going off everywhere, because everyone will take what this guy says as unquestionable truth. Yes."

Erm it doesn't actually prove anything.

All it says is "some horrible bastard MIGHT get in power". Which is somewhat different to "already done, obviously, carbombs and such going off everywhere, because everyone will take what this guy says as unquestionable truth. Yes."

Well obviously. It wouldn't be sensationalist bullcrap if it was true.

Well obviously. It wouldn't be sensationalist bullcrap if it was true.
Absolutely.

Especially since their 'trusty' information comes from the rival Bevril sect. Asking the Bevrili about what the Deobandis are like is essentially like asking Achmujendid about what he thinks The Jews are up to.

"oh, erm, probably electing people WHO REALLY HATE US AND EAT CHILDREN AND STUFF"

Green Tea Motherfuckers!

How can we not love fundie Muslims? They're big and cuddly and have beards. :D

But yeah the fundies of any religion are weird.

I wonder if it would help if the government required that every sermon speak out againt religious violence...

I'm sure our dear recently departed vicar would have tried to do as much. We could pay homage to the church of the latter day morons after that:rolleyes:

I'm sure our dear recently departed vicar would have tried to do as much. We could pay homage to the church of the latter day morons after that:rolleyes:

I miss the Vicar of St Albions, the Broonites just don't cut it.

I think we should introduce an "If you don't like it then fuck off" act. Hardline Islamist preachers will be offered a one-way plane ticket to Saudi Arabia, Iran or the theocratic hell-hole of their choice in exchange for giving up their British citizenship/right to remain in the UK. The scheme will be mandatory for any preachers who incite murder after they've finished their prison sentence. A similar offer will be in place for economists of the Austrian School who insist that autocracy is better than democracy.

I think we should introduce an "If you don't like it then fuck off" act. Hardline Islamist preachers will be offered a one-way plane ticket to Saudi Arabia, Iran or the theocratic hell-hole of their choice in exchange for giving up their British citizenship/right to remain in the UK. The scheme will be mandatory for any preachers who incite murder after they've finished their prison sentence. A similar offer will be in place for economists of the Austrian School who insist that autocracy is better than democracy.
I'd say that an "if you run a country so poorly that half of all Mosques are pretty pissed off with you, you should also fuck off Act" would be a lot fairer.

Not that this news story has any particular merit, seeing as a) it's not happened yet, it's a slim possibility and b) they asked people who'd say anything to discredit the sect in question.

I'd say that an "if you run a country so poorly that half of all Mosques are pretty pissed off with you, you should also fuck off Act" would be a lot fairer.

Not that this news story has any particular merit, seeing as a) it's not happened yet, it's a slim possibility and b) they asked people who'd say anything to discredit the sect in question.

Some of these people may be expressing reasonable dislike for British government policy, but many of them won't be satisfied with anything less than theocracy. They hate the idea of women being treated as equals, they hate the legality of homosexuality, and they hate freedom of speech and religion. Sure, there are plenty of decent Muslims out there, but these insane preachers are not among them. 50% is likely to be an over-estimate, but if you saw Undercover Mosque then you'd know that there were plenty of nuts out there.

Some of these people may be expressing reasonable dislike for British government policy, but many of them won't be satisfied with anything less than theocracy. They hate the idea of women being treated as equals, they hate the legality of homosexuality, and they hate freedom of speech and religion. Sure, there are plenty of decent Muslims out there, but these insane preachers are not among them. 50% is likely to be an over-estimate, but if you saw Undercover Mosque then you'd know that there were plenty of nuts out there.
There are some extremely bad apples in every faith, I don't see why this is considered a shock when the faith in question is Islam.

Just keep in mind what I previously said about their sources, and also the fact that there's nothing definite yet, and that this homophobic mysogynist is actually just one of several candidates, the rest of whom are pretty moderate by comparison, although it is a bit of a dodgy sect in general.

I'm sorry if I don't take shock-docs as particularly valid evidence, but Undercover Mosque seems like the kind of thing that would piss me off.

"ABSOLUTE SHOCK, SOME MUSLIMS ARE BADDIES, AND WE'RE FOCUSSING ON THEM!"
"See also Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc. etc."

There are some extremely bad apples in every faith, I don't see why this is considered a shock when the faith in question is Islam.

Just keep in mind what I previously said about their sources, and also the fact that there's nothing definite yet, and that this homophobic mysogynist is actually just one of several candidates, the rest of whom are pretty moderate by comparison, although it is a bit of a dodgy sect in general.

I'm sorry if I don't take shock-docs as particularly valid evidence, but Undercover Mosque seems like the kind of thing that would piss me off.

"ABSOLUTE SHOCK, SOME MUSLIMS ARE BADDIES, AND WE'RE FOCUSSING ON THEM!"
"See also Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc. etc."

I'm not aware of any Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or Sikh leaders in this country who are calling for the murder of homosexuals, women who refuse to wear a veil and apostates. If there are any then they should be kicked out as well; I despise bigots regardless of their religion (or lack thereof). The 'shock' in the documentary was that:

1. Some Islamic leaders are openly inciting murder.
2. This is happening in supposedly 'moderate' mosques.

Another shock was that the police declined to act on the evidence collected (despite it being more extreme and offensive than the hate-speech which Nick Griffon and his Neo-Nazi sidekick were tried for) and instead tried to press a formal complaint against Channel 4. It's as absurd as the people who blame cartoonists for fanatics' reaction to their cartoons. The documentary showed clear evidence of extremism and incitement to murder, and although some of the people filmed claim to have been taken out of context none of them have yet explained how phrases such as "homosexuals should be thrown off mountains and killed" were mitigated by the context...

Currently we're trapped between two equally useless reactions to Islamic extremism: the right-wingers who demonise all Muslims and only serve to alienate the decent ones, and the left-wingers who pretend that there's no problem at all and try to justify the hatred spouted by the lunatics.

So? almost half of american churces are under the control of a hardline evangelical sect whose leading preachers loathe western values like freedom of choice, freedom of of religion and freedom of sexual expression.Curious. Half the churches as in 'Houses run by a priest where people go to worship' or as in 'Religious Organisations'.

Just asking - because in the case of the latter, well... The westboro baptist church may be an religious organisation just like the catholic church, but it's a wee bit smaller, and this kind of thing may devalue statements such as 'Almost Half'.

I'm of course assuming that 'whose leading preachers loathe western values like freedom of choice, freedom of of religion and freedom of sexual expression.' refers to extreme examples of the same. I'm unaware of any churches who don't do this to some extent.

That means half aren't. You should be more optimistic.

Paraphrasing Dilbert:

The Optimist says:
The glass is half-full.

The Pessimist says:
The glass is half-empty.

The Engineer says:
It's a good thing I put half of my water in a redundant glass.

:p