NationStates Jolt Archive

Indeed - better to legalize child labour and create child labour shops where their rights can be monitored.

Granted, child labour is not analogous to women with free choice - merely pointing out the error of your comparison.

If the child's choice is to work 16 hours a day or starve, how is preventing him from working helping him.

The best solution is to arrange for him to not have to work, merely preventing him from doing so is bad.

My point is that if you solve the problem (i.e. feed the kid) he won't need to work, so he won't, and if you don't solve the problem, starving him is no solution. I don't think those particular laws serve any purpose, it's like passing a law against poking yourself in the eye with a sharp stick, what's the point ???

Because they look at how terrible life is for these prostitutes, but they don't seem to understand cause and effect.

Prostitution didn't *cause* these problems, it is the last refuge for people who had them otherwise. You are saying look at all the garbage around those flies, they must be creating it...

Prostitution and drug abuse go together because how else could most of these girls support their drug habit ?? it's a lot easier than burglary and the sorts of things the non-prostitute drug addicts resort to. For them it's the lesser of the evils.

It's not like they are going to kick the drug habit if you keep them off the street corner, they will still do it, but they will have to sink even lower.

There is the other side if it too, how bout the "high class ho's" the women who get $1000 a night and cater to the well to do. Should the girl flipping burgers for $7 an hour really feel sorry for the girl making 20 times that much ??


And for all you who talk about how terrible it is that they have no future because they will all burn out by the time they're 30, you could say the same thing about lots of professional athletes, but nobody's talking about outlawing pro tennis or gymnastics (and the gymnasts are ready for retirement when the ho's are still in their prime)

(and the gymnasts are ready for retirement when the ho's are still in their prime)

Gymnastics is what? 15 to 20, maybe 21?

The argument has often been that we should legalize prostitution to better protect women in the industry and, I'll admit, I sort of went along with that idea along the lines of 'it's a necessary evil'.

Yet does legalizing prostitution simply de-stigmatize it and therefore increase the amount of men likely to think 'it's not really that bad' and therefore increase the industry as a whole.

Is it a fundamentally bad thing, should it be criminalized further or less?

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2164107,00.html)

Are you asking if selling sex for money is intrinsicly bad?

The argument has often been that we should legalize prostitution to better protect women in the industry and, I'll admit, I sort of went along with that idea along the lines of 'it's a necessary evil'.

Yet does legalizing prostitution simply de-stigmatize it and therefore increase the amount of men likely to think 'it's not really that bad' and therefore increase the industry as a whole.

Is it a fundamentally bad thing, should it be criminalized further or less?

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2164107,00.html)
In theory, any individual should be able to exchange sex work for pay, just as they exchange any other physical labor for pay.

But we don't exist in a vacuum. We exist within the context of a profoundly patriarchal world, and the simple reality is that female sex workers are treated like shite pretty consistently.

Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to sell sex, but it should be illegal to buy it. If men are saddened by their inability to buy pussy on demand, let them channel their frustration into support for feminism and true equality. The sooner female human beings are recognized as full and equal human beings, the sooner it will be realistic to allow fully legalized sex work.

In theory, any individual should be able to exchange sex work for pay, just as they exchange any other physical labor for pay.

But we don't exist in a vacuum. We exist within the context of a profoundly patriarchal world, and the simple reality is that female sex workers are treated like shite pretty consistently.

Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to sell sex, but it should be illegal to buy it. If men are saddened by their inability to buy pussy on demand, let them channel their frustration into support for feminism and true equality. The sooner female human beings are recognized as full and equal human beings, the sooner it will be realistic to allow fully legalized sex work.

Can't say I disagree.

:rolleyes:

Of course the sentence, pointing out that there are some critics to the idea I support, of which there is lengthy (biased, I know) support preceding, does not support my idea.

They're critical of it.

It was less the issue of critics and more the issue of it making women MORE vulnerable.

It was less the issue of critics and more the issue of it making women MORE vulnerable.

I know it's a long thread but please feel free to read it.

In theory, any individual should be able to exchange sex work for pay, just as they exchange any other physical labor for pay.

But we don't exist in a vacuum. We exist within the context of a profoundly patriarchal world, and the simple reality is that female sex workers are treated like shite pretty consistently.

Personally, I don't think it should be illegal to sell sex, but it should be illegal to buy it. If men are saddened by their inability to buy pussy on demand, let them channel their frustration into support for feminism and true equality. The sooner female human beings are recognized as full and equal human beings, the sooner it will be realistic to allow fully legalized sex work.

Then it's not Buying sex that should be illegal, but PIMPING that should be illegal. it's the Pimp that controls the price (in most cases I hear about.) let the woman be the seller and allow the customers to buy. In other words, make it illegal for sex to be sold via a third party.

To say make buying sex illegal you also prevent the seller from selling. but if you focus that to those who would pimp, or force unwilling women through either violence, coersion or other means illegal then I can see that.

Then it's not Buying sex that should be illegal, but PIMPING that should be illegal. it's the Pimp that controls the price (in most cases I hear about.) let the woman be the seller and allow the customers to buy. In other words, make it illegal for sex to be sold via a third party.

To say make buying sex illegal you also prevent the seller from selling. but if you focus that to those who would pimp, or force unwilling women through either violence, coersion or other means illegal then I can see that.
I think you may have missed my point (probably because I was a bit unclear about it).

I don't believe it should be legal to buy sex right now. In the perfect world, without patriarchal crap and the abuse of the sex class (i.e. women), I would 100% support legalized prostitution. In the world we have today, I cannot support it.

The why is important here. I don't believe prostitution is wrong because selling sex is wrong. I believe prostitution is wrong because of the abuse and exploitation of prostitutes (almost always women). So if prostitution is wrong, but the prostitutes themselves are the victims, then the obvious solution is that I believe johns should face prosecution while prostitutes should not.

Pimps are generally also johns, as well as being rapists and drug dealers, because they use drugs and routine abuse to keep their victims in line. If abuse of prostitutes was actually taken seriously, there would be more than enough reason to imprison pimps under existing laws, without any need to charge them for pimping.

Gymnastics is what? 15 to 20, maybe 21?

I believe it's the mid-20's is when you cannot participate in the olympics.

dunno about any other venues (outside of training) where a Gymnast can continue in Gymnastics.

I know it's a long thread but please feel free to read it.

Been following since page one, thanks.

Bottle, I see where you're coming from but you're arguing down the same line we've already covered. All of what you talk about occurs with illegal prostitution...under legalized, regulated prostitution as occurs in the state of Nevada and in many countries, the prostitutes are protected from all of these problems. Is it perfect? Of course not, but it's better than what your suggestion would do, which is force the entire system underground and make things worse for the prostitutes.

Bottle, I see where you're coming from but you're arguing down the same line we've already covered. All of what you talk about occurs with illegal prostitution...under legalized, regulated prostitution as occurs in the state of Nevada and in many countries, the prostitutes are protected from all of these problems. Is it perfect? Of course not, but it's better than what your suggestion would do, which is force the entire system underground and make things worse for the prostitutes.
I have read through the thread, believe it or not, and I certainly can understand your perspective. I simply don't agree that things end up being significantly better for sex workers if prostitution is legalized without addressing the range of other concerns that lead to exploitation and abuse within the system.

A whole lot of people really like the notion that something will be solved by just legalizing prostitution, which seems so neat and tidy and simple. Yay, we can buy pussy legally, and we can feel better about doing it because it's better for the hookers! If only it were that simple...

The problems with the treatment of sex workers cannot be solved simply by making prostitution legal. The problem is a messy, complicated one, and requires a complicated solution. Assuming, of course, that one's goal is to ensure the fair and respectful treatment of sex workers.

I have read through the thread, believe it or not, and I certainly can understand your perspective. I simply don't agree that things end up being significantly better for sex workers if prostitution is legalized without addressing the range of other concerns that lead to exploitation and abuse within the system.

A whole lot of people really like the notion that something will be solved by just legalizing prostitution, which seems so neat and tidy and simple. Yay, we can buy pussy legally, and we can feel better about doing it because it's better for the hookers! If only it were that simple...

The problems with the treatment of sex workers cannot be solved simply by making prostitution legal. The problem is a messy, complicated one, and requires a complicated solution. Assuming, of course, that one's goal is to ensure the fair and respectful treatment of sex workers.
It definitely does require a complex solution, and believe me, I certainly don't have it figured out.

I do know this though: Criminalizing either the demand or the supply will force the prostitution underground and create the breeding ground for the kind of abuse. Legalization with current regulation can help prevent at least some of the abuse.

In essence, what I'm suggesting is going for the current idea we know helps somewhat while we figure out the best solution...makes sense to me, at least.

It definitely does require a complex solution, and believe me, I certainly don't have it figured out.

I do know this though: Criminalizing either the demand or the supply will force the prostitution underground and create the breeding ground for the kind of abuse. Legalization with current regulation can help prevent at least some of the abuse.

In essence, what I'm suggesting is going for the current idea we know helps somewhat while we figure out the best solution...makes sense to me, at least.
Well, I certainly don't support the current prevailing system in my country, which does exactly what you're talking about (drive it underground and make shit much worse). The only difference is that I'm unconvinced about the idea that "legalization with current regulation can help prevent at least some of the abuse." Right now, based on what I know, I think legalization simply removes some abuses and replaces them with others. I don't think there's actually much net gain for sex workers at all.

But it's a muddy subject, made more so by the fact that cultural and social context plays such a huge part. Since the cultural and social context will change from place to place, that means that there may not even be one general solution to the problem.

Stupid humanity, being all complicated and shit *grumblegrumble*

Well, I certainly don't support the current prevailing system in my country, which does exactly what you're talking about (drive it underground and make shit much worse). The only difference is that I'm unconvinced about the idea that "legalization with current regulation can help prevent at least some of the abuse." Right now, based on what I know, I think legalization simply removes some abuses and replaces them with others. I don't think there's actually much net gain for sex workers at all.

But it's a muddy subject, made more so by the fact that cultural and social context plays such a huge part. Since the cultural and social context will change from place to place, that means that there may not even be one general solution to the problem.

Stupid humanity, being all complicated and shit *grumblegrumble*

Indeed. I mean, all we really want is for sex workers to be able to work just like any other worker, and be treated as such. Is that too much to ask? Apparently so, given our cultural attitudes.

Ah well. It will be fixed in time. We simply need to figure out how to fix it.

I don't believe it should be legal to buy sex right now. In the perfect world, without patriarchal crap and the abuse of the sex class (i.e. women), I would 100% support legalized prostitution. In the world we have today, I cannot support it. but the prostitution world is how it is because of how prostitutes are looked down upon. Even by other women. So how do you propose to change that by keeping the image of the Criminal Prostitute.

If prostitution is legalized and the regulations (as well as other laws) enforced wouldn't the image, treatment and business practice of selling sex start to change in the eyes of Joe Q. Public?

So I believe prostitution should be illegal, but I also don't believe prostitutes should be punished. The obvious solution is that I believe johns should face prosecution, while prostitutes should not. I'm not for punishing prostitutes either, but how can you say they can sell sex if you punish the john who buys sex? as another person pointed out (and remains unanswered by others) if you prosecute the john, then those that would still buy sex would be ones who would have no qualms beating the woman as well as mistreating her. Thus hightening the chance of the prostitute of being hurt or worst.

as I said earlier, it's like saying, "I won't Censor you, but I'll arrest anyone who listens to you." You're still punishing the prostitute by taking away their customers.

also, due to the legal procedures needed. the sale has to take place in the presence of law enforcement. thus all you will be doing by making the buying of sex illegal is increasing the chances of the woman getting an abusive and dangerous customer you will be putting the prostitutes in more danger.

Pimps are generally also johns, as well as being rapists and drug dealers, because they use drugs and routine abuse to keep their victims in line. If abuse of prostitutes was actually taken seriously, there would be more than enough reason to imprison pimps under existing laws, without any need to charge them for pimping. the problem with arresting Pimps nowdays is the LACK of EVIDENCE (this is according to the Vice officers here in the islands) the women under the pimps won't speak up because they cannot be adequately protected by the system because they are also seen as criminals in the eyes of the law. add to that those brought in from other countries won't have any legal protection because all they will see/hear is girls like them being arrested. Add to that the customers with no other recourse will go to the illegal sources for their recreation. they won't forcus their fustration on feminism. in fact, they'll see feminism as part of the problem. so the customers wont turn in the pimps who are supplying them with their fun. same as the speakeasy and underground bars during prohibition.

so how to get those girls to speak up? One way is to remove the stigma of the 'criminal prostitute'. make it known, in every way shape and form that they are not the criminals but the victims. having legal, healthy, regulated outlets where women who do honestly want to ply their trade will help reduce the stigma of the prostitute.

How to get the customers to speak up? Provide them with a legal, healthy, and regulated outlet where they can get what they want and that will remove their 'dependancy' on the illgal pimps.

Then you can showcase those forced into illegal prostitution and human trafficking as the victims they are and you will find that the public would be more willing to help get those victimized girls off the streets and to people who will give them some real help.

All other States and Cities outlaw prostitution and have for decades, yet human trafficking and Illegal prostitution still is present.

This is why I like to discuss the problems associated with sex work rather than the problem of prostitution.

It may seem like a semantic difference, but it's not. The first deals with the coercion, violence, sexual abuse, child labour, rape and racism that sex workers face every day. The second deals with the work itself, and the underlying social assumption that sex work is bad or immoral.

It is important not to confuse these things. Bottle's concerns clarify this: we should not assume that by solving the problem of prostitution (through legalisation) we deal with all the problems currently associated with sex work. In other words, resolving the problem of prostitution does not solve the problems associated with sex work.

The causes of these other problems are far more complex than just legalisation issues. There are cultural issues of sexism, attitudes towards sex itself, social stigma, and acceptance of sexual deviancy.

As a North American middle class office worker, it would be very arrogant of me to offer solutions to a sex worker in Thailand. It is my belief that the sex workers themselves are the best people to speak to concerning the problems associated with sex work, and how we should go about solving them.

Here is an account of one sex worker activist at the UN:
http://www.walnet.org/csis/papers/saunders-migration.html

And a short paper on the international sex worker's rights movement:
http://www.global-labour.org/sex_workers.htm

Here's my favourite bit:

Nadia Lamamra (5), former secretary of the Swiss Feminist Coalition (FemCo), writes that:

“the principal limitation of the abolitionist approach is the refusal to listen to the views of the prostitutes, which is indispensable, knowing as we do that to deny women a voice is an element in their oppression. This also goes for prostitutes: by denying them a voice, one only perpetuates the social stigma they are subjected to. Listening to the prostitutes also means getting away from a victimizing and maternalist discourse.”

She then stresses the difference between forced prostitution and chosen prostitution: whereas all forms of forced prostitution must be fought by all means, chosen prostitution calls for other solutions, which must be based on the needs and expectations of those principally involved (6). Against that background,

“it would be possible to develop a trade union type of approach, based on the defense of the rights and interests of the persons exercising this profession. Separating chosen and forced prostitution means confronting feminists with a political challenge: should one opt for a reformist approach focused on the working conditions of prostitutes, or can one maintain a position of principle of an abolitionist type?”