NationStates Jolt Archive

I didn't want to spit on the thread about a singer's death so I thought I better start my own.

What is the appeal of an "art" where the women sound only slightly better than a rusty barn door and the men sound like a bull in heat?

Don't get me wrong, I love live theater, especially musicals. I go to the symphony regularly. Spend time in art museums. Basically love all of the arts and all styles of music--classical, country, blue grass, soul, blues, rock, and newer rap. But there is absolutely no redeeming social value to opera.

Yes, I have attended opera. Better to spend the time listening to a dentist drill as to listen to those women. And the men baying like an elephant. And no acting ability whatsoever.

OK, I know there has to be someone that understands the appeal more than "saying I like opera makes me classier than you". I need something other than it helps one be snooty.

I really hated opera until I saw one that I had a translation for, then I could follow the story a bit better, and still didn't like the braying. I am not exactly from the most sophisticated part of the country (it's claimed) so, maybe our Opera here isn't so good.

My husband has a CD of the Three tenors or whatever, it's palatable.

What is the appeal of looking at the Grand Canyon or a waterfall in the south American jungle?

What is the appeal of great art and architecture?

The appeal is that it is magnificent and beautiful.

Difficult for people without a correctly functioning sense of artistic taste to understand, perhaps, but not for the rest.

i assume its the mastery of the human voice until it can be "played" like a violin, hitting note with a purity that is impossible for most people.

and, of course, in the pre-mass media past it was the equivalent of MTV. you want good entertainment, you take what you can get.

im OK with the men's voices but the women's parts are just too high for me to enjoy. i dont care how hard it is to hit that note, its unpleasant to hear.

and most of the time the acting sucks. why bother to stage an opera if you are not going to do a good job with the acting part?

**none of the above pertains to gilbert and sullivan operettas.**

For me, it's more about the costumes and set. They are simply amazing. Take some binoculars next time (if) you go to an opera. It makes things so much more beautiful.

What is the appeal of Opera?

Obviously, you are not classy enough to like it.




:D

The singing is usually enjoyable, but I don't get the appeal of the acting, either.
Perhaps singing and acting don't mesh well together.

The mastery of the human voice and the rich sound of the orchestra and vocals is something that really is amazing. Add to that the centuries old traditions and works, the class and refinement of the patrons, and the exotic touch of foreign languages and cultures, and you can really appreciate opera. It's a multisensory experience that is hard to find these days outside of a few select places.

It's not for everyone, though. Some people just don't care for it...not every form of art is for everyone, especially those belonging to high culture. They really are an acquired taste in a lot of ways; it pays off, but it really requires an effort to appreciate. But once you do, you wouldn't trade it for anything.

musicals are to opera what runny shit is to chocolate fondue.

musicals are to opera what runny shit is to chocolate fondue.

So, why could you get 5000 people to show up for a musical and 200 to show for an opera. Is it because opera is an extreme case of constipation.

It is beautiful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYRQWYlDbM). It is sublime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEWcYhwovEQ&mode=related&search=). It is powerful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky271W94VHA). It is eternal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RdJmqLrsbo&mode=related&search=).

Those who are monolingual and never found themselves in a cultured environment have troubles with Opera because of these their own deficiencies.

So, why could you get 5000 people to show up for a musical and 200 to show for an opera. Is it because opera is an extreme case of constipation.

no, it's mostly because other people don't agree with me.

It's a decent browser that betters firefox in its memory useage.
I'm sorry.
So I'm told.

It is beautiful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYRQWYlDbM). It is sublime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEWcYhwovEQ&mode=related&search=). It is powerful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky271W94VHA). It is eternal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RdJmqLrsbo&mode=related&search=).

So, in summary, it is pretentious?

Those who are monolingual and never found themselves in a cultured environment have troubles with Opera because of these their own deficiencies.
Which of course explains why you like it.

So, why could you get 5000 people to show up for a musical and 200 to show for an opera. Is it because opera is an extreme case of constipation.


A better example would be:

Musicals are to Opera what Denny's is to haute cuisine, or that musicals are to opera as "Spiderman 3" is to "The Lives of Others," to use recent examples.

Which do you think attracts more people? Which is better?

Those who are monolingual and never found themselves in a cultured environment have troubles with Opera because of these their own deficiencies.Is that the same reason many people dislike French pop?

No one who has seen any action movie, read a silly fantasy novel, or role-played on this forum can insult opera, because it's all the same thing: escapism. The idea of it being "high-brow" I think is mostly American, or at least modern.
And of course, the music is fantastic. Even if you don't like to listen to it, I doubt anyone actually considers it to be "bad" music.

So, in summary, it is pretentious?


Which of course explains why you like it.

He didn't mention it being pretentious, there is a difference between being right and being pretentious.

Even if you don't understand it, Opera is all of those things, and does not merely pretend to be them.

When you can't tell good things from bad, it is easy to fall into the error of believing that all things purported to be good only pretend to be good.

Maybe you've just been watching / attending / listening to the wrong operas?

Maybe try Russian opera as it tends to be deeply dramatic and a little more focused on deep-voiced Slavs than the sopranos that seem to give you problems. I'm not suggesting the more difficult later Soviet-era operas of Prokofiev and Shostakovich (though I love Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk, and saw Gergiev conduct the Kirov for a magnificent version of P's The Firey Angel a few years back), but rather the more accessible 19th-century stuff.

For the perfect combination of spectacle and music, I'd personally suggest giving Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov a try. The drama! The costumes! And of course, it all goes horribly, horribly wrong...

Some youtube clips from different performances:

The Coronation scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HiEL3qADkU&mode=related&search=)

The Holy Fool (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1M2_-zq9lo&mode=related&search=)

Boris' farewell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_WOOZdVz9Y)

A better example would be:

Musicals are to Opera what Denny's is to haute cuisine, or that musicals are to opera as "Spiderman 3" is to "The Lives of Others," to use recent examples.

Which do you think attracts more people? Which is better?

I haven't seen "The Lives of Others" but have experienced the other three. Frankly, I'm glad I wasn't paying for the haute cuisine. The only thing good about it was the host was trying to impress me. He impressed me that he liked to spend money on glitz rather than food. It was an experience I'm glad I had just so I can say I've done it. And if someone were to offer to pay the bill, I would go again just so I could laugh at the pretentious people and tell the story to the real people.

At least my ears didn't burn all the way home, as they did with opera.

So, in summary, it is pretentious?

What you just wrote says volumes about you and nothing about Opera. Only someone who is completely devoid of knowledge about it could make such a fool of himself to call it pretentious.

Which of course explains why you like it.

I was very fortunate to grow up in a multilingual environment that exposed me to many aspects of culture and human achievement, all of which make Opera even more enjoyable to me - the awareness of the history behind it, the ability to understand the texts and plots and currents and ubiquitous influences found in it, the appreciation for how much labour and schooling goes into the singers' complete mastership over their voices allowing them to use them as an instrument instead of just speech accompanied by music; seemingly not all people can appreciate such things, I'm just glad I am. Too bad if you can't. That's no sweat off my back, though.

So, in summary, it is pretentious?
No, why do you say that? Nothing Fassigen said suggested it was any more pretentious than a beautiful landscape is pretentious.


Which of course explains why you like it.
Opera does have a certain snob appeal, but then again, so does wine, art...anything French, actually (funny how that works). I doubt you would want to give up wine, art, and France, though, just because they tend to attract elitism.

So, why could you get 5000 people to show up for a musical and 200 to show for an opera. Is it because opera is an extreme case of constipation.

Popularity and quality do not neccessarily correlate directly.

For other cases in point:
Britney.
n'synch.
Spice Girls.
Disco.
Michael Jackson.
...

The list is long and depressing.

Is that the same reason many people dislike French pop?

I didn't know many people did. Most people outside of France are too ignorant about it to be able to either like or dislike it. That doesn't stop some with preconceived notions, though - it's like those people who post in "best film" or "best song" threads and only list Anglophone examples. Limited, but would like to pretend they can still call something "best of all" and discard what they are ignorant of.

to sum up:

2 reasons

1) some people like fine music done well.

2) some like to be pretentious and to hang out with other pretentious people.

Popularity and quality do not neccessarily correlate directly.

For other cases in point:
Britney.
n'synch.
Spice Girls.
Disco.
Michael Jackson.
...

The list is long and depressing.

I have to agree 100% with this.

The appeal is subjective; I can't say I've ever had much chance, or inclination, to listen to Opera, but sufficient people find enjoyment in it to suggest there might be something in it at least.

As for those who object to anything remotely pretentious, I would simply suggest you go back to whatever suburb spawned you and guffaw, jeer and catcall at whatever base cause for amusement presents itself.

I haven't seen "The Lives of Others" but have experienced the other three. Frankly, I'm glad I wasn't paying for the haute cuisine. The only thing good about it was the host was trying to impress me. He impressed me that he liked to spend money on glitz rather than food. It was an experience I'm glad I had just so I can say I've done it. And if someone were to offer to pay the bill, I would go again just so I could laugh at the pretentious people and tell the story to the real people.

At least my ears didn't burn all the way home, as they did with opera.

Well, that makes two of life's great pleasures you will miss.

So, why could you get 5000 people to show up for a musical and 200 to show for an opera. Is it because opera is an extreme case of constipation.

Becuase most people are morons who require intant gratification with no necessity for deeper consideration of anything more complex than "ooh, ain't that cute".

Opera started because the Church decided theatre was immoral, and opera got around this ruling. It's enduring power is due to the emotions it evokes, much like modern musicals. If you don't get it, don't worry and move on. If you hate it, just know opera will live long past you, and music-or was passes as music-will endure past our own culture-reserve your contempt for disco-it truly deserves it.

Opera=Beauty of the Human Voice

I think that's it

I think a lot of people in this thread have just been going to the wrong Operas. It isn't all fat guys and ugly women in fancy dress killing themselves while wailing and grunting indecipherably in a vague approximation of what might have stood for Italian during the 17th Century.
The Barber of Seville, for instance, can be hilarious in the right hands. You've just got to use some judgment in what you go to see like you would with any medium, and do try to avoid condemning a centuries old, international genre of stage craft based upon a single experience or inherited cliché.

I
What is the appeal of an "art" where the women sound only slightly better than a rusty barn door and the men sound like a bull in heat?

Beats the heck out of me. Luckily, what you have described bears no resemblance to any production I have ever heard of by a professional opera company.

Don't get me wrong, I love live theater, especially musicals. I go to the symphony regularly. Spend time in art museums.

Ditto, ditto, ditto...

But there is absolutely no redeeming social value to opera.

...except for that whole "gorgeous music performed by exceedingly talented musicians" thing.

Yes, I have attended opera. Better to spend the time listening to a dentist drill as to listen to those women. And the men baying like an elephant.

If you really think Pavarotti in his prime sounded like an elephant baying, well, then, I'm very sorry to hear of your hearing problem. You may want to have that looked at.

And no acting ability whatsoever.

This, I admit, can be a real problem with some (not all) productions, although it's a changing trend. Acting lessons are becoming a much more standard part of operatic training, and more and more singers are being expected to know how to emote decently as well as sing brilliantly. However, the music really is the point of an opera - the acting, the sets, the costumes, and so on are all important, but necessarily take a backseat to the music.

OK, I know there has to be someone that understands the appeal more than "saying I like opera makes me classier than you". I need something other than it helps one be snooty.

I've never found that an appreciation for opera helps me be snooty, or that it particularly makes me classy. It makes me a musician who enjoys and respects good music.

What you just wrote says volumes about you and nothing about Opera. Only someone who is completely devoid of knowledge about it could make such a fool of himself to call it pretentious.



I was very fortunate to grow up in a multilingual environment that exposed me to many aspects of culture and human achievement, all of which make Opera even more enjoyable to me - the awareness of the history behind it, the ability to understand the texts and plots and currents and ubiquitous influences found in it, the appreciation for how much labour and schooling goes into the singers' complete mastership over their voices allowing them to use them as an instrument instead of just speech accompanied by music; seemingly not all people can appreciate such things, I'm just glad I am. Too bad if you can't. That's no sweat off my back, though.
I never said I didn't like it, I was making an exaggeration based on my view of you based on consecutive posts. Such as that one.

What is the appeal of looking at the Grand Canyon or a waterfall in the south American jungle?

What is the appeal of great art and architecture?

The appeal is that it is magnificent and beautiful.

Difficult for people without a correctly functioning sense of artistic taste to understand, perhaps, but not for the rest.

Jesus Christ talk about elitism

The mastery of the human voice and the rich sound of the orchestra and vocals is something that really is amazing. Add to that the centuries old traditions and works, the class and refinement of the patrons, and the exotic touch of foreign languages and cultures, and you can really appreciate opera. It's a multisensory experience that is hard to find these days outside of a few select places.

It's not for everyone, though. Some people just don't care for it...not every form of art is for everyone, especially those belonging to high culture. They really are an acquired taste in a lot of ways; it pays off, but it really requires an effort to appreciate. But once you do, you wouldn't trade it for anything.

Maybe I got to see one in person ... kind of like plays with me I absolutely enjoy them but almost exclusively only in person.

Opera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STlXBJJaDIE) rules (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyxPxpSvXQ8).

Jesus Christ talk about elitism

It isn't elitism in any social sense - it is not that rich people have good taste and poor people don't, it is that people with good taste have good taste, and people who don't don't.

If people are unequal in many other respects, why should we consider them to be equal in the quality of their tastes?

Can you run an Olympic foot race well? Can only wealthy people run an Olympic foot race well? It is elitism to say that some athletes are good and some are not, but it is not a bad thing to say, because 'elitism' is not a bad thing in itself.

It isn't elitism in any social sense - it is not that rich people have good taste and poor people don't, it is that people with good taste have good taste, and people who don't don't.

If people are unequal in many other respects, why should we consider them to be equal in the quality of their tastes?

Can you run an Olympic foot race well? Can only wealthy people run an Olympic foot race well? It is elitism to say that some athletes are good and some are not, but it is not a bad thing to say, because 'elitism' is not a bad thing in itself.
There is rather a difference between critiquing the quality of an athlete and assuming that someone who does not have the same taste in music does not have a "correctly functioning sense of artistic taste"

Not to mention that how you say something can have as great of impact as the words them self

But whatever makes you happy

There is rather a difference between critiquing the quality of an athlete and assuming that someone who does not have the same taste in music does not have a "correctly functioning sense of artistic taste"

Not to mention that how you say something can have as great of impact as the words them self

But whatever makes you happy

Some people are good at math and enjoy doing it, some people are good at picking good art from lousy art, and get a great deal of enjoyment from good art, some people are the same with music, some with food, some with this and that.

Not everyone is equally good at everything, some people are better at picking out good music and appreciating it.

There is rather a difference between critiquing the quality of an athlete and assuming that someone who does not have the same taste in music does not have a "correctly functioning sense of artistic taste"

Well, to be fair, there's a world of difference between "Opera isn't really my thing" and "opera is worthless." The former is a perfectly reasonable statement of personal preferences, and offers no value judgments per se; the latter is, quite frankly, a stupid statement.

To make a comparison, I was visiting an art museum with a friend recently, and he commented that he really doesn't like Rodin. He recognizes that Rodin was an exceedingly talented sculptor - he just doesn't personally really enjoy any of his sculptures. I certainly don't think less of my friend's taste in art because of this. If, however, he had claimed that Rodin was entirely talentless, I would have no qualms in claiming my friend to have lousy judgment on that subject. Art is certainly significantly subjective, but there are objective standards. If someone says Jesse Owens was a lousy runner, they are simply and indisputably wrong; if someone says Rodin couldn't sculpt for shit, they are simply and indisputably wrong, and if someone says Verdi was a completely incompetent composer...well, you get the idea.

What's the problem here? :confused:

Opera is the best browser: That's why it's so appealing. :D

Speaking of Rodin... I've always wanted to open a hamburger bistro and call it the "The Burgers of Calais"

Anyhoo... I fell in love with opera when a Gilligan's Island episode did a musical version of Hamlet set to the music of Carmen.

Speaking of Rodin... I've always wanted to open a hamburger bistro and call it the "The Burgers of Calais"

Hahaha. Excellent.

Speaking of Rodin... I've always wanted to open a hamburger bistro and call it the "The Burgers of Calais"

That is droll, terribly droll, but beautiful.

Well, to be fair, there's a world of difference between "Opera isn't really my thing" and "opera is worthless." The former is a perfectly reasonable statement of personal preferences, and offers no value judgments per se; the latter is, quite frankly, a stupid statement.

To make a comparison, I was visiting an art museum with a friend recently, and he commented that he really doesn't like Rodin. He recognizes that Rodin was an exceedingly talented sculptor - he just doesn't personally really enjoy any of his sculptures. I certainly don't think less of my friend's taste in art because of this. If, however, he had claimed that Rodin was entirely talentless, I would have no qualms in claiming my friend to have lousy judgment on that subject. Art is certainly significantly subjective, but there are objective standards. If someone says Jesse Owens was a lousy runner, they are simply and indisputably wrong; if someone says Rodin couldn't sculpt for shit, they are simply and indisputably wrong, and if someone says Verdi was a completely incompetent composer...well, you get the idea.

Precisely.

If a person can't tell that opera is more than "elephant noises," we should assume that there is something wrong his capacity to appreciate music, not with opera itself.

Obviously you haven't watch enough Bugs Bunny to understand the appeal of Opera,... phillistine.

Is that the same reason many people dislike French pop?

Come on, Katerine is brilliant ;)

"Excuse moi j'ai éjaculé dans tes cheveux"

Art! Pure Art!

But there is absolutely no redeeming social value to opera.



Really?

Opera used to be the way for many new ideas to be disseminated amoung the general populace. Try reading the synopses of a few.

I feel this case is brilliantly illustrated by La Muette de Portici. When it was shown in Belgium in 1830, it so inflamed the audience that they caused a riot that started the Belgian revolution.

I feel there is some social value in an art form that has helped people gain independence ;)

Obviously you haven't watch enough Bugs Bunny to understand the appeal of Opera,... phillistine.

What's Opera, Doc? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4263870661529656591&q=what%27s+opera+doc%3F&total=27&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

No one should live without that cartoon.


Spear and Magic Helmet?

Yes.

Spear and Magic Helmet.

It's a decent browser that betters firefox in its memory useage.
I'm sorry.
So I'm told.

Yeah. I totally thought this was about the browser. Does the browser have an Opera widget.....for Opera? What's going on?

Really?

I feel this case is brilliantly illustrated by La Muette de Portici. When it was shown in Belgium in 1830, it so inflamed the audience that they caused a riot that started the Belgian revolution.

I feel there is some social value in an art form that has helped people gain independence ;)


The late, not-so-great GG Allin started riots as well. He got his jollies through rubbing his own feces in teen girls' hair, after which they would *%$# his @#*& while it was all &$@^!@! He also hit a lot of his fans. Very hard. Yet I'd still rather go to a GG show than attend an event that is no longer meaningful.

Yet I'd still rather go to a GG show than attend an event that is no longer meaningful.

Why do you think opera is no longer meaningful

Yeah. I totally thought this was about the browser. Does the browser have an Opera widget.....for Opera? What's going on?

Perhaps if the OP differentiated between proper and common nouns this wouldn't have happened ;) [/pedantry]

Opera started because the Church decided theatre was immoral, and opera got around this ruling. It's enduring power is due to the emotions it evokes, much like modern musicals.

Your second sentence is quite correct, but the first is a bit inaccurate. Italy (not unified at the time) had a thriving theatre scene in the 16th century, as well as the development of madrigals and musical theatre in the intermedi. The Church was strict about music created for it, but it's jurisdiction didn't really apply to most of the courts. Opera developed more out of the former, the first all being written for royal marriages and festivals.

Beats the heck out of me. Luckily, what you have described bears no resemblance to any production I have ever heard of by a professional opera company.

If you really think Pavarotti in his prime sounded like an elephant baying, well, then, I'm very sorry to hear of your hearing problem. You may want to have that looked at.

This, I admit, can be a real problem with some (not all) productions, although it's a changing trend. Acting lessons are becoming a much more standard part of operatic training, and more and more singers are being expected to know how to emote decently as well as sing brilliantly. However, the music really is the point of an opera - the acting, the sets, the costumes, and so on are all important, but necessarily take a backseat to the music.

I agree with everything Poliwanacraca has said. Wagner was never consistent with his gevanthaustwerk (which I've never been able to spell), music was always the most important.

I do find I dislike quite a few opera singers, but this is always based on cd and radio performances. I suspect in person my impressions would always be different. The operas I have seen have always impressed me greatly.

Opera uses tabs. That's a plus, right?

I do find I dislike quite a few opera singers, but this is always based on cd and radio performances. I suspect in person my impressions would always be different. The operas I have seen have always impressed me greatly.

I think the quality of Opera in my area is so bad that I don't like it maybe.

I think the quality of Opera in my area is so bad that I don't like it maybe.

That's entirely possible. I've only ever seen operas in London and Cambridge, both of which have some of the best groups performing in.

But opera singing extends far beyond just operas, next time you here a Requiem, Oratorio, or another orchestral piece with solo voices, those singers will have trained singing opera arias and perhaps will have sung major roles in operas. This is ideal if you dislike the acting/set part of opera.

I didn't want to spit on the thread about a singer's death so I thought I better start my own.

What is the appeal of an "art" where the women sound only slightly better than a rusty barn door and the men sound like a bull in heat?

Don't get me wrong, I love live theater, especially musicals. I go to the symphony regularly. Spend time in art museums. Basically love all of the arts and all styles of music--classical, country, blue grass, soul, blues, rock, and newer rap. But there is absolutely no redeeming social value to opera.

Yes, I have attended opera. Better to spend the time listening to a dentist drill as to listen to those women. And the men baying like an elephant. And no acting ability whatsoever.

OK, I know there has to be someone that understands the appeal more than "saying I like opera makes me classier than you". I need something other than it helps one be snooty.

I like the idea that opera is supposed to make you snooty... I'm an east-end boy working for the city, and living in a mobile home. I'm about as lowest-common-denominator as you can get, I figure.

And yet I still appreciate opera... why should that be? Maybe it's the fact that some of the pieces have been honed to a form of elegant perfection of centuries? Maybe that some of the singers have such a control and purity of the voice that they become the most expressive instrument in the orchestra? Maybe it's just the charisma of someone like Pavarotti, which can reach out an arrest with it's passion?

I don't like all opera. I'd be wary of anyone who claimed they did. But, I can't even begin to comprehend the kind of mindset that thinks you can write off the whole thing.

I was thinking about making a thread like this.

Opera to me is like rap to some people: pure and utter crap. A disgustingly, horrible bunch of rubbish that isn't even deserving to be called music.

Honestly, I took a 10-second look at that Pavoratto video someone posted for me and closed it.

This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds.

Some people are good at math and enjoy doing it, some people are good at picking good art from lousy art, and get a great deal of enjoyment from good art, some people are the same with music, some with food, some with this and that.

Yes, but math is an objective subject; there is a clear right and wrong in mathematics. Make a mistake, and don't correct it, and you get a wrong answer. Art is different. It's subjective, based on what looks/sounds/feels good to different people in different backgrounds. People develop a taste in certain art over time, and we shouldn't knock other people's like or dislike of different works or styles of art if each person involved in the conversation has given it a chance. Different styles of art are just going to be appealing to different people. There's really nothing wrong, IMHO, in liking even rock, country or rap more than opera. It's just the way that person's taste developed. There's no deformity in it.

Opera uses tabs. That's a plus, right?

You win.

I never said I didn't like it, I was making an exaggeration based on my view of you based on consecutive posts. Such as that one.

It is comforting to see that you remain ever as inconsequential and mistaken.

What's Opera, Doc? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4263870661529656591&q=what%27s+opera+doc%3F&total=27&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

No one should live without that cartoon.

I'm quite fond of Tom & Jerry's opera excursions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OhJO_to9g&mode=related&search=).

The Barber of Seville is one of my favourite operas...

I was thinking about making a thread like this.

Opera to me is like rap to some people: pure and utter crap. A disgustingly, horrible bunch of rubbish that isn't even deserving to be called music.

You don't like it. Fine. But it's music by definition and "deserves" to be called that, unless you just don't feel that you "deserve" to use proper language simply on the basis of your personal music preferences.

I had a similar attitude towards opera until I went to a live presentation of The Barber of Seville.

It is beautiful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYRQWYlDbM). It is sublime (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEWcYhwovEQ&mode=related&search=). It is powerful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky271W94VHA). It is eternal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RdJmqLrsbo&mode=related&search=).

Those who are monolingual and never found themselves in a cultured environment have troubles with Opera because of these their own deficiencies.

Ach, quiet, you. It's rather like me claiming that people who fail to appreciate chocolate in all its godlike quality have a morally inferior background, i.e. an absolutely adequate statement (although I must admit I detest opera, but meh.)

Ach, quiet, you.

Ahime, che furia! Ahime, che folla! Uno alla volta, per carita! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yJ2BFMB6sc&mode=related&search=)

It's rather like me claiming that people who fail to appreciate chocolate in all its godlike quality have a morally inferior background, i.e. an absolutely adequate statement (although I must admit I detest opera, but meh.)

You say it yourself, but you and I have already come to the conclusion that you are culturally challenged in so many areas that your ignorance of opera is just another area of your remissness.

Ahime, che furia! Ahime, che folla! Uno alla volta, per carita! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yJ2BFMB6sc&mode=related&search=)

A YouTube link? To opera? As if. I might later volunteer to do the dishes, that should be more exciting.

You say it yourself, but you and I have already come to the conclusion that you are culturally challenged in so many areas that your ignorance of opera is just another area of your remissness.

This is yet another incident of a nicely-fitting application of the "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout 'Fassigen is always right in argument'" mantra, yes?

A YouTube link? To opera? As if. I might later volunteer to do the dishes, that should be more exciting.

Weib! Deine letzte Stunde ist da. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvuKxL4LOqc&mode=related&search=)

This is yet another incident of a nicely-fitting application of the "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout 'Fassigen is always right in argument'" mantra, yes?

I have trained you meticulously and well.

Opera appeals to me because of the beauty of the singer's voices, the complexity of the scores, and most importantly, the passion of the music.

Opera is, in my opinion, the most truly uplifting style of vocal music.

Maria Callas has given my heart wings of melody.

You don't like it. Fine. But it's music by definition and "deserves" to be called that, unless you just don't feel that you "deserve" to use proper language simply on the basis of your personal music preferences.

I'm comparing it to what some people say about rap...

Come on, Katerine is brilliant ;)

"Excuse moi j'ai éjaculé dans tes cheveux"

Art! Pure Art!
Please tell me that doesn't say what it looks like it should say to an ill-educated product of the English national curriculum i.e. me. Cos if it does, that's just wrong...

It is beautiful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYRQWYlDbM). deficiencies.

I like how when she begins to sing, the orchestra people put down their instruments in horror :)

I like the browser

Coloratura sopranos are wonderful, one of the main examples of their mastery being the Queen of the Night's aria in the The Magic Flute which Fass has already linked to.

I find that operetta (light opera) might be easier to relate to, for example Glitter and Be Gay (http://youtube.com/watch?v=fkewgAR3--M) from Bernstein's Candide (it starts at 00:58 and you should understand most of it since it's in English, and it's performed by a coloratura soprano too).

I like how when she begins to sing, the orchestra people put down their instruments in horror :)

Are you autistic and thus challenged when it comes to discerning the emotional states of others? Because interpreting the musicians' actions during an unaccompanied part of the aria as in "horror" leads me to believe you are.

Are you autistic and thus challenged when it comes to discerning the emotional states of others? Because interpreting the musicians' actions during an unaccompanied part of the aria as in "horror" leads me to believe you are.
http://www.wizardsforum.co.uk/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

At, not with.

Opera appeals to me because of the beauty of the singer's voices,


I guess some people find beauty in an air raid siren.

Heh, all this debate about opera. I like a lot of the music I've heard, but I've only seen one opera (more or less), a torrented performance of Der Ring.

I guess some people find beauty in an air raid siren.

That is such an ignorant statement.

Are you autistic and thus challenged when it comes to discerning the emotional states of others? Because interpreting the musicians' actions during an unaccompanied part of the aria as in "horror" leads me to believe you are.

I was dangerously close to being in harmony with you for a few pages.

Luckily, at the last minute, you reverted to form and became the same old Fass we can all cheerfully ignore.

Autism as 'clever' insult? Nice one.

I guess some people find beauty in an air raid siren.

I do. And heavy machinery like factory equipment and various digging and hauling equipment. There's an (un)natural beauty in the sound of paving smashed under pneumatic concussions.

One of the things I miss most about leaving big cities behind.

I was dangerously close to being in harmony with you for a few pages.

Luckily, at the last minute, you reverted to form and became the same old Fass we can all cheerfully ignore.

Autism as 'clever' insult? Nice one.

I agree with him. Incidentally, he did not use "autism" as a perjorative term; it is a medical fact that autism leads to a reduced ability to discern emotions.

Personally, my favourite form of vocal music is Russian choral music. The only music allowed in the Orthodox church ceremony is that created by the human voice: the effect is utterly amazing. It is no wonder that the Orthodox church service is considered to be one of the most moving Christian ceremonies when they have such music and the staggeringly beautiful ikoni.

Personally, my favourite form of vocal music is Russian choral music. The only music allowed in the Orthodox church ceremony is that created by the human voice: the effect is utterly amazing. It is no wonder that the Orthodox church service is considered to be one of the most moving Christian ceremonies when they have such music and the staggeringly beautiful ikoni.

Russian choral music is indeed often fantastic. Have you ever heard Rachmaninoff's Vespers? The "Bogoroditse Devo" in there is bloody amazing.

I agree with him. Incidentally, he did not use "autism" as a perjorative term; it is a medical fact that autism leads to a reduced ability to discern emotions.

It's bad enough when a layman peddles this kind of uneducated tripe. Fass is supposed to be a medical professional or something.. he, at least, should know better. If you don't know what you are talking about, feel free to shut the fuck up.

It's bad enough when a layman peddles this kind of uneducated tripe. Fass is supposed to be a medical professional or something.. he, at least, should know better. If you don't know what you are talking about, feel free to shut the fuck up.

awww..... you're not autistic yourself are you?:D

If so, I'd love to be sympathetic.

awww..... you're not autistic yourself are you?:D

If so, I'd love to be sympathetic.

I am one of a number of sufferers of Autism Spectrum Disorders on the NSG forum. I don't want your sympathy, nor do I need it. But I also don't need your uneducated bullshit.

Speaking of Rodin... I've always wanted to open a hamburger bistro and call it the "The Burgers of Calais"

Hilarious! Problem is, nobody would ever order anything. They'd just stand at the counter, look at the menu and...think.

Your second sentence is quite correct, but the first is a bit inaccurate. Italy (not unified at the time) had a thriving theatre scene in the 16th century, as well as the development of madrigals and musical theatre in the intermedi. The Church was strict about music created for it, but it's jurisdiction didn't really apply to most of the courts. Opera developed more out of the former, the first all being written for royal marriages and festivals.

The Catholic Church basically had the market cornered on music, especially choral music. in 1600, composers like Claudio Monteverdi formed a group called the Florentine Camerata, who got together to figure out how to bring the large ensemble music of Liturgical masses, requiem masses, passion plays and oratoria (plural of oratorio, like Handel's Messiah) into a more secular sphere. One of the first true operas ever staged was Monteverdi's own Orfeo ed Euridice (Opheus and Eurydice). They had to be very careful to not inflame the Church's sensibilities, so many of the first opera subjects were mythological (since the oratoria had the Bible pretty much covered). In the 18th century, Mozart's time, the rules about opera subjects loosened considerably, and you get much more secular and mundane subjects -- The Marriage of Figaro, and the like.

Composers still took on supernatural themes, because opera was still about spectacle (such as Mozart's The Magic Flute), but opera began to "reach out" to the masses with more accessible (as in not needing to be a scholar, well read in mythology or history) topics and themes. 19th century opera composers like Giuseppi Verdi were masters at bridging the supernatural and the mundane (witness Aida versus Il Trovatore). In fact, some composers stuck to decidedly middle class themes or themes about the conflict between classes, like Giacomo Puccini (the hilarious fighting over who gets what in a will is the subject of his Gianni Schicci, which produced perhaps one of the most beautiful arias in all of opera, O mio babbino caro, which is NEVER sung by a Wagnerian soprano, but a delicate, plaintive voice. Give that a listen and see if your opera-hating heart doesn't melt a bit).

Operas in teh 20th century decided to up the ante on drama. You get the almost unlistenable screechfest of Alban Berg's Wozzeck, but you also get the curious oddity of Philip Glass' Einstein on the Beach. If you want a nice bridge between chaos and charisma, try Benjamin Britten's two masterpieces, Billy Budd (a naval setting resembling that of the book/film Master and Commander and Peter Grimes (a kind of Law & Order crime and trial story).

The point is, there's something in opera for almost everone, if you're willing to look. Just because what's "popular" in opera is what's always shown when opera is discussed, doesn't mean the whole genre is without merit. I don't like screeching soprani or bellowing bassi any more than some of you do. But -- like rap -- there's good stuff everywhere if you really want to try and find it. If you don't, then at least please shut your deliberately ignorant mouth and move on.

Coloratura sopranos are wonderful, one of the main examples of their mastery being the Queen of the Night's aria in the The Magic Flute which Fass has already linked to.

That aria was originally written for an alto. The Queen of the Night is supposed to be really, really pissed off at Pamina, and basically ordering her to murder Sarastro. Somehow, in the mists of history, that anger aspect got blunted and the song became more pretty than polemic. I still like it, but it seems to undermine the fact that the QotN is a five-star bitch.

awww..... you're not autistic yourself are you?:D

If so, I'd love to be sympathetic.

That's uncalled for.

That's uncalled for.
TBC's not exactly famous for his tact.

That's uncalled for.

I have a feeling about 89% of what's posted on these threads is uncalled for.

I am one of a number of sufferers of Autism Spectrum Disorders on the NSG forum. I don't want your sympathy, nor do I need it. But I also don't need your uneducated bullshit.

What does NSG stand for? Nation States something (I at least know that much!)

What does NSG stand for? Nation States something (I at least know that much!)

General. :)

TBC's not exactly famous for his tact.

Yeah, you know, I like opera and all... but when a thread about opera has as it's main supporters Fass and TBC, it makes me feel dirty and ashamed.

At least though I can say I like rap AND opera, because unlike the aforementioned I'm not a pretentious snob who mainly listens to music just to be able to say they listen to it, and not because they actually understand or truly appreciate it.

General. :)

Oh...................that's kinda a "duh," isn't it? :(


Thanks though!

The Catholic Church basically had the market cornered on music, especially choral music. in 1600, composers like Claudio Monteverdi formed a group called the Florentine Camerata, who got together to figure out how to bring the large ensemble music of Liturgical masses, requiem masses, passion plays and oratoria (plural of oratorio, like Handel's Messiah) into a more secular sphere. One of the first true operas ever staged was Monteverdi's own Orfeo ed Euridice (Opheus and Eurydice). They had to be very careful to not inflame the Church's sensibilities, so many of the first opera subjects were mythological (since the oratoria had the Bible pretty much covered). In the 18th century, Mozart's time, the rules about opera subjects loosened considerably, and you get much more secular and mundane subjects -- The Marriage of Figaro, and the like.

Composers still took on supernatural themes, because opera was still about spectacle (such as Mozart's The Magic Flute), but opera began to "reach out" to the masses with more accessible (as in not needing to be a scholar, well read in mythology or history) topics and themes. 19th century opera composers like Giuseppi Verdi were masters at bridging the supernatural and the mundane (witness Aida versus Il Trovatore). In fact, some composers stuck to decidedly middle class themes or themes about the conflict between classes, like Giacomo Puccini (the hilarious fighting over who gets what in a will is the subject of his Gianni Schicci, which produced perhaps one of the most beautiful arias in all of opera, O mio babbino caro, which is NEVER sung by a Wagnerian soprano, but a delicate, plaintive voice. Give that a listen and see if your opera-hating heart doesn't melt a bit).

Operas in teh 20th century decided to up the ante on drama. You get the almost unlistenable screechfest of Alban Berg's Wozzeck, but you also get the curious oddity of Philip Glass' Einstein on the Beach. If you want a nice bridge between chaos and charisma, try Benjamin Britten's two masterpieces, Billy Budd (a naval setting resembling that of the book/film Master and Commander and Peter Grimes (a kind of Law & Order crime and trial story).

Indeed, thanks, I love in-depth musical history (and I still have so much to learn :)).

Actually, the Monteverdi was titled "L'Orfeo: Favola per musica", Peri's 'opera' was titled "Euridice"; it was Gluck's that was "Orfeo ed Euridice". Why couldn't they use the same name, damnit! :p

One of my courses last year was on opera (whole history of it), got to love Wozzeck and Don Giovanni in particular, and I really want to see some of Britten's (I like the Four Sea Interludes already).

I was dangerously close to being in harmony with you for a few pages.

*phew* I dodged a bullet there, didn't I.

Autism as 'clever' insult? Nice one.

It's not an insult, it's just very connected to the alexithymia the person I was responding to expressed. This struck close to home with you, didn't it? I can't say I'm surprised.

*phew* I dodged a bullet there, didn't I.


Something like that.

*
It's not an insult, it's just very connected to the alexithymia the person I was responding to expressed. This struck close to home with you, didn't it? I can't say I'm surprised.

Your usage belies your intent. You can pretend it wasn't intended as an insult, but we both know that would be untrue.

I hope your specialisation is pharmacy, or something where you won't actually be required to make deductions based on symptoms... since alexithymia is one of the big 'myths' in the ASD field. There may be some overlap between alexithymia and some cases of spectrum disorders (similarities with the linguistic elements of Asperger's, and the statistically higher 'probability' in Asperger's sufferers).

It is worth noting that alexithymia would probably be a better identifier of post-traumatic distress, anorexia, or substance abuse. It would also be worth noting that alexithymia is something like 20 times more common than Autism.

Not to mention, you are basically misrepresenting alexithymia, also...

So... is it wrong for me to point out your little jab is not only nonsensical, but also perpetuating a lie?

Your usage belies your intent. You can pretend it wasn't intended as an insult, but we both know that would be untrue.

In any case, your thinking that I care either or, or whether I hurt your little feelings, is futile.

I hope your specialisation is pharmacy,

While it is clear that your specialisation is in self-delusional BS.

or something where you won't actually be required to make deductions based on symptoms... since alexithymia is one of the big 'myths' in the ASD field. There may be some overlap between alexithymia and some cases of spectrum disorders (similarities with the linguistic elements of Asperger's, and the statistically higher 'probability' in Asperger's sufferers).

Nonsense. Alexithymia is very much part of ASD - I know that some higher functioning sufferers would like to deny it and look for the exceptions of certain "over-empathisers" that they themselves would like to be, but the studies simply do not support their claims. So, bitch all you want, the DSM ain't gonna suddenly be rewritten and those symptoms of qualitative impairment of social interaction and the example given of impaired emotional reciprocity just disappear because you'd like to claim they're myths.

It is worth noting that alexithymia would probably be a better identifier of post-traumatic distress, anorexia, or substance abuse. It would also be worth noting that alexithymia is something like 20 times more common than Autism.

And somewhere around 85% of people with ASD have alexithymia, and you call that "some" overlap - hah! So, you're just deluding yourself if you're going to continue to claim that the empathic deficiencies of ASD are a "myth". They are not. No matter how much you'd like to wish for it.

Not to mention, you are basically misrepresenting alexithymia, also...

Nope. Alexithymia doesn't just involve an inability to express emotions, but it also specifically involves an inability to identify the emotional states of oneself or others. ASD is tightly coupled to it.

So... is it wrong for me to point out your little jab is not only nonsensical, but also perpetuating a lie?

The only lies here are the ones you'd like to comfort yourself with.

...and Fass demonstrates how it's possible to simultaneously insert his foot in his mouth and his head up his ass.

...and Fass demonstrates how it's possible to simultaneously insert his foot in his mouth and his head up his ass.

Cute little Greater Trostia, leave the grown-ups to their much too complex convo, hmmkay?

Cute little Greater Trostia, leave the grown-ups to their much too complex convo, hmmkay?

Ah, yes. So very, very complex.

Fass: "LOL R U AUTISTIC?"

TBC: "LOL HE R NOT AUTISTIC BUT THIS ONE HEAR IS"

Fass: "LOL, AUTISM"

TBC: "LET ME FELLATE YOU, FASS"

Fass: "LOL, WE IS HAVEN COMPLIX DISCUSSION ON Y AUTISTICS SUCK BOW BEFORE MY COMPLEXITY"

Anyone can see you're just being an antagonistic douche here, Fass. Trying to dress it up with your incredibly tiresome pretense of intellectual superiority doesn't fool anyone.

It's not an insult, it's just very connected to the alexithymia the person I was responding to expressed.Except that it wasn't really an example of alexithymia but rather a crass joke. Literal interpretation of an obvious deliberate falsehood, interesting...

I don't care for opera, but I did enjoy the operetta "Die Fledermaus".

In any case, your thinking that I care either or, or whether I hurt your little feelings, is futile.


Amusingly, that would be a better indicator of autism, than alexithymia.


While it is clear that your specialisation is in self-delusional BS.


Oh, the irony.


Nonsense. Alexithymia is very much part of ASD - I know that some higher functioning sufferers would like to deny it and look for the exceptions of certain "over-empathisers" that they themselves would like to be, but the studies simply do not support their claims. So, bitch all you want, the DSM ain't gonna suddenly be rewritten and those symptoms of qualitative impairment of social interaction and the example given of impaired emotional reciprocity just disappear because you'd like to claim they're myths.


Okay - I understand what is going on. You are clearly out of your depth if you are still trying to peddle 70's concepts like 'high function' autism.

The intelligent and respectful thing for you to do would be to back away. Preferably, silently.

Having problems interacting socially, and being able to express emotions coherently, or not the same thing.


And somewhere around 85% of people with ASD have alexithymia, and you call that "some" overlap - hah! So, you're just deluding yourself if you're going to continue to claim that the empathic deficiencies of ASD are a "myth". They are not. No matter how much you'd like to wish for it.


I think your numbers are bullshit. There is something like a 50% overlap in Asperger's. It seems unlikely that Asperger's - which latest research has suggested has commonality with alexithymia - has a lower display rate than other spectrum disorders.

You bore me, so I'm going to cut the bullshit here, and present an actual source that suggests you are talking out of your arse:

"One of the most devastating myths about autistic children is that they cannot show affection. While sensory stimulation is processed differently in some children, they can and do give affection."

http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_whatis_characteristics

Please tell me that doesn't say what it looks like it should say to an ill-educated product of the English national curriculum i.e. me.

>.>

Cos if it does, that's just wrong...

Art!


(At least he apoligised ;))

I love Opera... so uplifting, so empowering... i watch her show every day.

Seriously though - its a great art form. I think part of the reason why so many people do not like it simply stems from the language barrier. The best operas are written in Italian, German, or French, which makes it difficult for English speakers to really enjoy fully. Then throw in an opera written in the Appalachian dialect and you have a serious problem ;)

The rest of the problem is probably because people take it too seriously - relax... opera is meant to just be enjoyed. It is like Hamlet - everyone takes it too seriously and they forget that everything Shakespeare wrote still had to keep the humble masses entertained. Even his tragedies had to have something to keep the peasants who paid to stand through the whole performance happy. Just relax and enjoy the music, the costumes, the intriguing plots, the women with fantastic control of their throats (of course giving a blowjob affects the voice, so when dating an opera singer you can only get them between shows... damnit).

There is so much to love about opera if you just keep an open mind and dont take it too seriously.

That's uncalled for.

I'm not sure. It certainly seemed amusing enough at the time.

Indeed, thanks, I love in-depth musical history (and I still have so much to learn :)).

Actually, the Monteverdi was titled "L'Orfeo: Favola per musica", Peri's 'opera' was titled "Euridice"; it was Gluck's that was "Orfeo ed Euridice". Why couldn't they use the same name, damnit! :p

One of my courses last year was on opera (whole history of it), got to love Wozzeck and Don Giovanni in particular, and I really want to see some of Britten's (I like the Four Sea Interludes already).

Cool.

Thanks for the correction. I knew Euridice was in there somewhere.

I'm not sure. It certainly seemed amusing enough at the time.

Low expectations are easily met.

Before this thread got derailed by Fass thinking that condescension was the best way to refute the idea that opera is pretentious, it was really going somewhere.

Liking opera has a lot to do with the way it is introduced to you, and I was fortunate to end up liking it despite it being introduced to me the wrong way as a child. The first opera I ever saw was Boris Godunov when I was in elementary school. I was enthralled, but we were forced to leave at the last act because it was "too long" for the teachers who wanted their elementary school kids to get home before midnight. This was a bad introduction.

My next introduction was part of a six week rotating course with a teacher who thought that playing a scratchy LP of Madama Butterfly over and over again without any synopsis or libretto for the rest of us was going to be a good use of our time. This was a very bad introduction.

At around the same time as I was being miseducated in opera, I was growing bored with classical music in general and didn't like the pop of the time (I grew up in the 80s) and decided that I needed something new to listen to, so I went to the classical section and picked out an LP merely because I liked the modern art on the cover. It was Charles Ives' 1st Piano Sonata, and I had never heard anything remotely like it. I wasn't instantly won over. In fact, I stopped listening after ten seconds. I'm persistent, though, and tried again and again until I thought (unusually for a ten year-old) that, unless this man were simply crazy along with the record company and pianist, I should listen to what he was trying to convey by his composition rather than what I expected to hear.

When I realized it was about timbre and rhythm over melody and conventional harmony, I fell in love with it and didn't return it until I was able to get a copy of my own. I was so intrigued that I set out to learn everything I could about modern music, but constantly eschewed opera because of my two previous bad experiences with it. But in the 20th century music histories, the opera Wozzeck by Alban Berg kept on coming up, and finally I decided to check it out from the library. It was the Deutsche Grammaphon recording with Fischer-Dieskau, Lear, Wuenderlich, and Boehm conducting. I'd never heard anything more striking in its orchestral beauty and sheer dramatic force. When F-D shouted "Marie! Marie!" after Wozzeck killed her I felt chills up my spine. It's still the best recording of Wozzeck I know.

Then I was won over back to opera. What I see in it, if it's done right, is simply a kick-ass form of art. It energizes me in the same way as listening to Rage Against the Machine's "Wake Up", for example. Verdi's Don Carlo, for example, kicks ass. The second act chorus "Spuntato ecco il di d'esultanza" is fantastic. Wagner's Siegfried kicks ass. "Nothung! Nothung! Neidliches Schwert!" is the heldentenor aria that rules them all. Poul Ruders' The Handmaid's Tale kicks ass in a different, more dissonant way. Richard Strauss' Capriccio is a lovely, meditative work that kicks ass in velvet boots.

I'm being slightly facetious, but not entirely. It really is the case that a good opera performed well can give me a buzz that lasts for days. I feel the exact same way after seeing good theatre or a good concert or a good film. That's what I see in opera.

All the rest of it is really irrelevant. The length of the tradition, to me, doesn't matter, even less the alleged 'sophistication' of the people, most of whom I'd like driven to the wall. Once, in protest of the police presence that surrounded the Lyric Opera of Kansas City's theatre to keep the homeless away, I wore a t-shirt featuring a man holding a Molotov that said "FIGHT FOR YOUR CLASS NOT YOUR COUNTRY". When I walked outside during the intermission I got a few bug-eyed stares from the great and the good and was nearly not let back inside by the cop, until I showed him my ticket stub proving that I'd paid. Consumerism, of course, being the universal passport to everywhere.

I mention this to warn you that obvious classism does exist among opera patrons, but also to show that it needn't put you off. :D

the women with fantastic control of their throats

I would say that the screeching women's voices are 99% of the problem.

....the Lyric Opera of Kansas City...

Are you a Kansas Citian as well as an opera fan? (If so, neat! I always like to find people on this forum from my own general area.) :)

Opera? Some people it is a good and fast browser. I have no idea why...

I would say that the screeching women's voices are 99% of the problem.

Maybe you should leave your wife home next time you go to the opera.

Are you a Kansas Citian as well as an opera fan? (If so, neat! I always like to find people on this forum from my own general area.) :)

I used to live in Lawrence, KS, but now I'm back on the West Coast.

*snip the excellence*
I mention this to warn you that obvious classism does exist among opera patrons, but also to show that it needn't put you off. :D

Outstandingly said. Bravo!