NationStates Jolt Archive

This event is a certainty, though our generation need not worry about it. However how do you think society as a whole will react knowing they are the last generation to live and they will die relatively soon. How would you react?

I think that if we can somehow survive that long, interstellar travel will be a snap.

This event is a certainty, though our generation need not worry about it. However how do you think society as a whole will react knowing they are the last generation to live and they will die relatively soon. How would you react?

The sun won't "die" for roughly 1,000,000,000,000,000 years. That's a quadrillion years. That's the time it would take for a white dwarf to cool to 5000 degrees K. The sun won't become a white dwarf for another 6 or 7 billion years.

However how do you think society as a whole will react knowing they are the last generation to live and they will die relatively soon.
The sun isn't one of those big stars that suddenly blows up - it will expand over many millions of years, slowly roasting the Earth. Anyway, if humanity survives another four billions years I don't think we can really speculate on what technology might exist by then.

This event is a certainty, though our generation need not worry about it. However how do you think society as a whole will react knowing they are the last generation to live and they will die relatively soon. How would you react?

Errr... it's not just going to 'switch off'...

If human society has not advanced beyond Earth in the fairly near future, we'll be long since extinct by the time the sun dies. Honestly, by the year 9 billion AD we'll probably be able to just create new stars and planets with the same ease we build a house or a car today. Besides, the process is very, very slow; we'd have more than enough time to relocate the planet before it posed any real risk.

I don't think they'll have much to worry about, other than in a symbolic sense by seeing our ancient homeworld destroyed (if we don't save it).

I think that if we can somehow survive that long, interstellar travel will be a snap.

Agreed.

I'm not one of those people who thinks humanity will die any time soon, but six billion years? I don't think so.

The sun is not going to one day go "well, that's it for me" and shut off.

The process will be gradual taking place over MILLIONS of years as the last fuseable elements are converted into heavier elements that are not fuseable. In response to this the sun's radiation output will go through spikes and drops (lasting on their own hundreds of thousands if not millions of years) and begin a period of expansion.

In short, whatever life is left on earth will be long dead before the sun finally winks out

I'm not one of those people who thinks humanity will die any time soon, but six billion years? I don't think so.

Mankind as we know it will probably be extinct in the near future as we direct our own biology and technology to shape ourselves. I guess it's the good kind of extinction...although the future itself is always open to be shaped and changed.

Moreover, our sun probably will never die. It's not dense enough to form a black hole nor big enough to go nova. It will perhaps eventually turn into a black dwarf, but the time frame for a star to do that is assumed longer than the current life of the universe.

Our sun WILL cool considerably, but not before its expansion reduces earth to a radioactive cinder. THAT is what will kill everything still left on the surface.

The sun is not going to one day go "well, that's it for me" and shut off.

The process will be gradual taking place over MILLIONS of years as the last fuseable elements are converted into heavier elements that are not fuseable. In response to this the sun's radiation output will go through spikes and drops (lasting on their own hundreds of thousands if not millions of years) and begin a period of expansion.

In short, whatever life is left on earth will be long dead before the sun finally winks out

Exactly. By the time our star is anywhere near being considered 'dead' (and it still won't REALLY be, at that point), it will have yummed up a tasty morsel like our little rock during it's exapansive red phase.

Exactly. By the time our star is anywhere near being considered 'dead' (and it still won't REALLY be, at that point), it will have yummed up a tasty morsel like our little rock during it's exapansive red phase.

actually if I'm correct the most accepted estimates say that the star will only expand to engulf mercury, leaving venus and earth.

However considering that said expansion will cause the earth to heat up to the point of turning our mantle into one giant ocean of lava...I doubt much will survive it.

I'm not big on pointless speculation, but 5 billion years ought to be enough time to either pull our collective heads out of our asses and technologivally or evolutionalrily move on to other worlds...or wipe ourselves out through other chemical, radioactive, biological or ecological phenomena.

actually if I'm correct the most accepted estimates say that the star will only expand to engulf mercury, leaving venus and earth.

However considering that said expansion will cause the earth to heat up to the point of turning our mantle into one giant ocean of lava...I doubt much will survive it.

I always read that the gas giants will probably get away unscathed but the rest of us up to that are toast.

Whichever way - it probably won't be fun for a considerable while before the shopkeeper closes up.

The end of earth will come long before the sun dies. When a main sequence star exhausts its supply of hydrogen, the star sends out pulses where it discards its atmosphere. The sun will do this and become a giant. It will engulf the earth at this point.

By the time that happens, mankind will either:

1.) be extinct

2.) have regressed to a level of knowledge reminiscent of the stone age and so won't be aware of their impending destruction

or

3.) have developed the technology needed to survive the Sun's death.

My money's on a combination of 1 and 2: humanity will continue to develop ever greater powers and ever more destructive weapons without acquiring the necessary restraint required not to use them. Eventually something will go wrong and a nuclear war (or even more deadly futuristic equivalent) will break out, and the survivors won't be any position to rebuild civilisation or to retain the knowledge needed to do so.

The sun isn't one of those big stars that suddenly blows up - it will expand over many millions of years, slowly roasting the Earth. Anyway, if humanity survives another four billions years I don't think we can really speculate on what technology might exist by then.

Yep the un will never go supernova on us. It will end up engulfing the earth as a giant, but it will then become a white dwarf

The sun is not going to one day go "well, that's it for me" and shut off.

The process will be gradual taking place over MILLIONS of years as the last fuseable elements are converted into heavier elements that are not fuseable. In response to this the sun's radiation output will go through spikes and drops (lasting on their own hundreds of thousands if not millions of years) and begin a period of expansion.

In short, whatever life is left on earth will be long dead before the sun finally winks out
I don't think the sun will be able to fuse anything heavier than carbon and oxygen. It will be able to fuse helium, but that will be its last hurrah.

Actually I think the Milky Way and Andromada colliding will happen sooneR.If not or either way it will take billions of years and we will think of something first.Hell we could start new civilzations on other planets.Scientists thought of putting germs on one of Jupiter's moons and letting them evolve.NASA could do this further out.Or build awesome space ships and fly us all to a distant new Earth-like planet.

Duh yah think?:rolleyes:

*Listens to the Filk song "Songs of Distant Earth" By Bill Roper*

I think that if we can somehow survive that long, interstellar travel will be a snap.

And planet-moving. Just move the entire Earth to a safe place.

Somebody has watched the movie Sunshine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0448134/), right?

Well, they'll build an a-bomb the size of Manhattan, of course, and fly it to the sun to detonate it there...

By the time that happens, mankind will either:

1.) be extinct

2.) have regressed to a level of knowledge reminiscent of the stone age and so won't be aware of their impending destruction

or

3.) have developed the technology needed to survive the Sun's death.

My money's on a combination of 1 and 2: humanity will continue to develop ever greater powers and ever more destructive weapons without acquiring the necessary restraint required not to use them. Eventually something will go wrong and a nuclear war (or even more deadly futuristic equivalent) will break out, and the survivors won't be any position to rebuild civilisation or to retain the knowledge needed to do so.

Thank you. I was thinking something along these lines, but I don't believe I could have formulated it so well. The expansion of the sun is the least of our troubles.

Somebody has watched the movie Sunshine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0448134/), right?

Well, they'll build an a-bomb the size of Manhattan, of course, and fly it to the sun to detonate it there...

Oh jebus, I didn't think they could out-stupid The Core, clearly I was wrong.

Moreover, our sun probably will never die. It's not dense enough to form a black hole nor big enough to go nova. It will perhaps eventually turn into a black dwarf, but the time frame for a star to do that is assumed longer than the current life of the universe.

Our sun WILL cool considerably, but not before its expansion reduces earth to a radioactive cinder. THAT is what will kill everything still left on the surface.
For a star, no more fusion = death.

And the surface of the sun will cool as the outer layers expand, but the core will heat up to fuse heavier elements. The earth will be consumed by the sun's expansion unless the sun loses enough mass before it expands to move the planets out in their orbits.

The sun will turn into a white dwarf + planetary nebula combination. Aliens in the distant future will probably look at it through telescopes and go "oOoOoOo... pretty". This isn't something we have to worry about for ~5 billion years or so though. The sun is safely on the main sequence for now.

Actually I think the Milky Way and Andromada colliding will happen sooneR.If not or either way it will take billions of years and we will think of something first.Hell we could start new civilzations on other planets.Scientists thought of putting germs on one of Jupiter's moons and letting them evolve.NASA could do this further out.Or build awesome space ships and fly us all to a distant new Earth-like planet.

Correct. Present estimates are that the collission will occur roughly 500 million years from now. Well in advance of the sun's expansion.

I don't think the sun will be able to fuse anything heavier than carbon and oxygen. It will be able to fuse helium, but that will be its last hurrah.

Incorrect. There's a long series of heavy element fusions that can go on in the core of the sun, where it'd still be hot enough for that sort of thing to occur. I believe the chain stops at either iron or lead. It's one of the two, and I can never remember which.

I always read that the gas giants will probably get away unscathed but the rest of us up to that are toast.

Whichever way - it probably won't be fun for a considerable while before the shopkeeper closes up.

Yes and no. The actual expansion of the sun won't go far enough to do anything to the gas giants. It probably won't even get far enough to envelop Mars.

However, when core collapse occurs, and our sun becomes a white dwarf, the ejecta from the collapse will probably rip every last molecule of gas off of those giants, leaving them a collection of large asteroids.

On hearing this during Tuesday night's series finale of The Universe, my dad suggested that, just maybe, all asteroids were formed this way :headbang:

Incorrect. There's a long series of heavy element fusions that can go on in the core of the sun, where it'd still be hot enough for that sort of thing to occur. I believe the chain stops at either iron or lead. It's one of the two, and I can never remember which.

It's iron. Iron fusion requires more energy to produce than it generates, meaning stars can't fuse elements any heavier. A seperate set of nuclear reactions generates heavier elements, but it's seperate from the sun's reactions.

I've always wondered what will destory life on Earth? Seeing as the red giant phase is 4-7 billion years away... a long time... I've ocassionally wondered if the core of the Earth would have cooled enough to cause massive damage to the biosphere and bring an end to life on Earth before the Sun goes into the Red Giant phase. Sorry about the long sentence.

I've always wondered what will destory life on Earth? Seeing as the red giant phase is 4-7 billion years away... a long time... I've ocassionally wondered if the core of the Earth would have cooled enough to cause massive damage to the biosphere and bring an end to life on Earth.

It's certainly possible that Earth's core will cool (Mars once had an active core, it no longer does). Cessation of core rotation would result in no more magnetosphere, meaning no more protection from the solar wind. Life would have to evolve to cope with much higher doses of radiation lest Earth be bleached clean.

This event is a certainty, though our generation need not worry about it. However how do you think society as a whole will react knowing they are the last generation to live and they will die relatively soon. How would you react?

Buy a sturdy firearm (or twenty), stash ammunition, and continue life as normal.

I believe the chain stops at either iron or lead. It's one of the two, and I can never remember which.
Iron.

I'm quite sure that voracious brain-eating aliens will destroy us long before the Sun gives out.

I'm quite sure that voracious brain-eating aliens will destroy us long before the Sun gives out.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG187.jpg

It's iron. Iron fusion requires more energy to produce than it generates, meaning stars can't fuse elements any heavier. A seperate set of nuclear reactions generates heavier elements, but it's seperate from the sun's reactions.

Iron.

Thanks :)

This event is a certainty, though our generation need not worry about it. However how do you think society as a whole will react knowing they are the last generation to live and they will die relatively soon. How would you react?
What is this -- 5 billion years in the future?

Who the hell cares?

i think that unfortunatly many people would get very religious very quickly. there will probably be a few bloody wars and genocides.

i think that unfortunatly many people would get very religious very quickly. there will probably be a few bloody wars and genocides.

Asimov's Nightfall comes to mind, just a little.

Somebody has watched the movie Sunshine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0448134/), right?

Well, they'll build an a-bomb the size of Manhattan, of course, and fly it to the sun to detonate it there...
Talk about stupid...

Oh jebus, I didn't think they could out-stupid The Core, clearly I was wrong.
Of course. You'd be amazed at how stupid film makers can get.

I almost said Hollywood, but this is a British film.

But hey, at least it's new material for Rifftrax!

I believe we only have about a billion and a half of habitation on this rock before it gets to hot for modern humans. Was watching a special on Discovery channel about the sun and they mentioned this. However they did add that humans could move the planet by that time to an orbit out by mars. they also said Mars would heat up and thaw by that time to actually be habitable if humans had not already done so by then. Thus keeping the planet good for another half a billion years. It was even suggested that Earth could be moved even more if us humans wished to do so. Also by this time humans will be in hundreds if not thousands of different colonies spread around the Milky Way.

You mean this event!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/gallery/s1_02gallery/800/01.jpg

Isn't this the premise of Jared Diamond's book - what was the person who cut the last tree on Easter Island down thinking?

I suspect we'd bury our heads in the sand and expect some sort of solution to appear because, individually, it's not our problem.

It's certainly possible that Earth's core will cool (Mars once had an active core, it no longer does). Cessation of core rotation would result in no more magnetosphere, meaning no more protection from the solar wind. Life would have to evolve to cope with much higher doses of radiation lest Earth be bleached clean.I'm not sure, maybe life is able to cope with much higher radiation doses. After all the Earth's magnetic field has switched polarity a fair few times in the pass. All literature I've been browsing seems to suggest that the magnetic field is 'turned off' for about 1,000 years before re-establishing itself.

I'd be more concerned about this (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12316812.400.html) happening on a global scale. Imagine no electricity for 1,000 years. I think it'd be safe to say that most of civilisation would collapse.

This event is a certainty, though our generation need not worry about it.
No, it's not. Humanity is perfectly capable of wiping itself out sooner.

However how do you think society as a whole will react knowing they are the last generation to live and they will die relatively soon. How would you react?

By the year 5 billion humanity will have had time to invent interstellar ships and move star systems.

No, it's not. Humanity is perfectly capable of wiping itself out sooner.



By the year 5 billion humanity will have had time to invent interstellar ships and move star systems.

In 5 billion years I kind of hope we're using stars as fusion reactors rather than just floating around in space at random.

In 5 billion years I kind of hope we're using stars as fusion reactors rather than just floating around in space at random.

?? We already can use stars' fusion for energy. It's called solar power. A slightly more effective method of energy gathering is to create fusion reactions small enough that you can surround it and get all of the energy output.

?? We already can use stars' fusion for energy. It's called solar power. A slightly more effective method of energy gathering is to create fusion reactions small enough that you can surround it and get all of the energy output.

I'm thinking more along the lines of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain).

I'm thinking more along the lines of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain).

A Matrioshka Brain would be seriously badass. Harnessing the power of an entire star for computation would enable us to do quite a few things we can't exactly achieve right now.

It would probably be absolutely necessary for intergalactic travel due to the sheer complexity of calculating navigation routes on that scale.

A Matrioshka Brain would be seriously badass. Harnessing the power of an entire star for computation would enable us to do quite a few things we can't exactly achieve right now.

It would probably be absolutely necessary for intergalactic travel due to the sheer complexity of calculating navigation routes on that scale.

Because there are so many things to crash into? :confused:

Because there are so many things to crash into? :confused:

Stellar drift, dark matter, dark energy, gravity wells. Lots of stuff to throw your course of, if it's off even slightly you'll end up far from your intended target.

Because there are so many things to crash into? :confused:
There may not be many things to crash into, but what things there are tend to be of the variety that would leave quite a mark on one's fender.

Because there are so many things to crash into? :confused:

Well, not necessarily, it's more that the stuff you do hit can have various unpleasant consequences.

I'm thinking more along the lines of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain).

Dyson Spheres are pretty impractical. The amount raw materials required to put a sphere at 1 AU from the sun or slightly beyond that, which completely encompasses the sun is phenomenally large. Dyson rings might be more practical, but they would still take an absurd amount of material we just don't have.

Dyson Spheres are pretty impractical. The amount raw materials required to put a sphere at 1 AU from the sun or slightly beyond that, which completely encompasses the sun is phenomenally large. Dyson rings might be more practical, but they would still take an absurd amount of material we just don't have.
Thing is, that's not what a Dyson sphere is supposed to be. The popularized image of an entirely encompassing sphere is completely off base from Dyson's original idea, and of course is impractical.

But I don'ts ee why a Dyson ring couldn't be done. It wouldn't have to be at one AU, either. Maybe half an AU. And we could farm the asteroid belt for the materials...we're going to need to do that anyway to keep up our metal supplies.

Thing is, that's not what a Dyson sphere is supposed to be. The popularized image of an entirely encompassing sphere is completely off base from Dyson's original idea, and of course is impractical.

But I don'ts ee why a Dyson ring couldn't be done. It wouldn't have to be at one AU, either. Maybe half an AU. And we could farm the asteroid belt for the materials...we're going to need to do that anyway to keep up our metal supplies.

Still a lot of material. 1 AU is 93 million miles. So a half-AU ring would have a diameter of 93 million miles. That's a circumference of 93*10^6 * pi. Now, assuming for the same of argument that it's a ring that's 1 mile thick, that's 292 million miles of silicon and other raw materials to build the damn thing.

Dyson Spheres are pretty impractical. The amount raw materials required to put a sphere at 1 AU from the sun or slightly beyond that, which completely encompasses the sun is phenomenally large. Dyson rings might be more practical, but they would still take an absurd amount of material we just don't have.

Actually it's more like a Dyson swarm, with multiple layers. You'd have to deconstruct all the planet for materials, but you could do a pretty good job of it.

Still a lot of material. 1 AU is 93 million miles. So a half-AU ring would have a diameter of 93 million miles. That's a circumference of 93*10^6 * pi. Now, assuming for the same of argument that it's a ring that's 1 mile thick, that's 292 million miles of silicon and other raw materials to build the damn thing.

Eeesh. Point.

So what would you attempt instead, then?

Eeesh. Point.

So what would you attempt instead, then?

Hydrogen-based fuel and the ice asteroids. But that's far, far in the future. We'd need to find an efficient way to get out to those asteroids, and either tap them there or bring them back.

Actually it's more like a Dyson swarm, with multiple layers. You'd have to deconstruct all the planet for materials, but you could do a pretty good job of it.


"Deconstruct the planet"? :confused: And how exactly would you go about stripping away raw material from the planet, and where the hell would you live while this was going on?

Hydrogen-based fuel and the ice asteroids. But that's far, far in the future. We'd need to find an efficient way to get out to those asteroids, and either tap them there or bring them back.

Which would be the better option? Tapping them there would require shipping mined material back to Earth but you wouldn't have to bring over new asteroids once you're done with one of them, whereas bringing one to Earth would be more efficient when it came to shipping material, but would require a lot of energy to move the asteroid and you'd have to do something with the empty shell once you've mined it, since I doubt you could completely mine every last bit of iron/nickel/what have you.

Which would be the better option? Tapping them there would require shipping mined material back to Earth but you wouldn't have to bring over new asteroids once you're done with one of them, whereas bringing one to Earth would be more efficient when it came to shipping material, but would require a lot of energy to move the asteroid and you'd have to do something with the empty shell once you've mined it, since I doubt you could completely mine every last bit of iron/nickel/what have you.

It's a tricky question, and not one I'm qualified to answer.

And you're missing the point. They're ice asteroids. I'm talking about hydrogen fuel. I mean, sure, we could mine some asteroids for iron/nickel and such, but I'm talking about the ice itself.

It's a tricky question, and not one I'm qualified to answer.

And you're missing the point. They're ice asteroids. I'm talking about hydrogen fuel. I mean, sure, we could mine some asteroids for iron/nickel and such, but I'm talking about the ice itself.

Wait, now you've lost me. Start over.

Its all a bit of a mis-leader

Due to the energy output of the sun going up over the years since it was formed, its estimated that the energy recieved by earth from the sun 1 billion yrs from now will make it uninhabitable.

Further more the adromeda galaxy plows into our own in 4 billion years time, causing a massive gravitational disruption to our galaxy.
A result of this could be the sun and earth system being either A. expelled into intergalatic space or B. Sent down the central black hole.

In any case, the large amounts of dust and gas swirling around the black hole will cause it to become a quasar..... and the enrgy output from that will be enough to sterilize the galaxy.

And on that depressing note... good night and happy dreams

"Deconstruct the planet"? :confused: And how exactly would you go about stripping away raw material from the planet, and where the hell would you live while this was going on?

All you need is a sufficiently powerful mass driver and a lot of time.

Give humanity four billion years, and we'll either exterminate ourselves, or we'll be like that creepy slime mold, only we'll be taking on the galaxy, not people's flowerbeds.