NationStates Jolt Archive

Africans are destroying their former ancestor worship and animist objects because they find Christianity is not working to alleviate their problems. Priests tell them to destroy the artifacts because it shows they aren't fully committed fully.

God, I hate religion.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070904/ap_on_re_af/new_religion_vs_old_gods)

ACHINA, Nigeria - Born to a family of traditional priests, Ibe Nwigwe converted to Christianity as a boy. Under the sway of born-again fervor as a man, he gathered the paraphernalia of ancestral worship — a centuries-old stool, a metal staff with a wooden handle and the carved figure of a god — and burned them as his pastor watched.

"I had experienced a series of misfortunes and my pastor told me it was because I had not completely broken the covenant with my ancestral idols," the 52-year-old Nwigwe said of the bonfire three years ago. "Now that I have done that, I hope I will be truly liberated."

Generations ago, European colonists and Christian missionaries looted Africa's ancient treasures. Now, Pentecostal Christian evangelists — most of them Africans — are helping wipe out remaining traces of how Africans once worked, played and prayed.

As poverty deepened in Nigeria from the mid-1980s, Pentecostal Christian church membership surged. The new faithful found comfort in preachers like evangelist Uma Ukpai who promised material success was next to godliness. He has boasted of overseeing the destruction of more than 100 shrines in one district in December 2005 alone.

Achina is typical of towns and villages in the ethnic Igbo-dominated Christian belt of southeastern Nigeria where this new Christian fundamentalism is evident. The old gods are being linked to the devil, and preachers are urging not only their rejection, but their destruction.

The Ezeokolo, the main shrine of Achina — a community of mainly farmers and traders in Nigeria's rain forest belt — has been repeatedly looted of its carved god figures. While no one has been caught, suspects range from people acting on Christian impulses to treasure thieves.

Recently, a village civic association volunteered to build a house to keep burglars away from a giant wooden gong decorated with carved male, female and snake figures. The gong in the market square is reputed to be more than 400 years old, and in decades past was sounded in times of emergency.

"We feared it may be stolen or destroyed like so many of our traditional cultural symbols," said Chuma Ezenwa, a Lagos-based lawyer.

But the move to protect a communal symbol has not changed the minds of others.

Ikechukwu Nzekwe, a 48-year-old farmer who belongs to a traditional masquerade cult, rues the action of his younger brother, a born-again Christian who destroyed the family's masquerade costume, including pieces dating back seven generations.

The masquerade cult was once part theater, appearing at festivals to perform songs and dances, and part traditional police — its members helped enforce mores and customs. Now its role is largely restricted to theater, including performances and races by men in costumes depicting ancestral spirits.

Ukpai, the evangelist, tells followers the artifacts bear "curses and covenants" linked to the gods they represent.

"Since the curses and covenants do not automatically disappear when we repent, Rev. Dr. Uma Ukpai is a man called by God for the total liberation of mankind," he says on his Web site, claiming to have the spiritual backing of Jesus to break the curses.

Efforts to speak to Ukpai were unsuccessful, and e-mails to his office asking for an interview received no reply.

Early missionaries to Nigeria condemned most traditional practices as pagan. Roman Catholics and Anglicans later came to terms with most practices, even incorporating some traditional dances into church liturgy. But there was no room for local gods once their erstwhile worshippers became Christians.

Similarly, Muslim preachers in Nigeria's predominantly Islamic north forbade interaction with figures dedicated to local idols, although many cultural dances featuring traditional masks are still tolerated.

Most converts are in constant tension over how much of the old beliefs can be incorporated into their new faith, said Isidore Uzoatu, a specialist in the history of Christianity in Africa affiliated with Nnamdi Azikiwe University in southeastern Nigeria.

"Where the older Catholic and Anglican denominations are more tolerant, the Pentecostals reflect more strictly the idea of a jealous God that would brook no rival," said Uzoatu.

The changing attitudes have not escaped the attention of art dealers.

"This work you see here is from a shrine. It was brought to me by one woman who said her pastor had asked her to get rid of it," said Wahid Mumuni, a dealer at Ikoyi Hotel in Lagos, gesturing toward a carving.

Mumuni said the price was the equivalent of $1,500 and he expected a European visitor to take it away soon.

The National Commission for Museums and Monuments, which is responsible for protecting the country's cultural antiquities, has responded with a sensitization campaign.

"We are ... telling the Christians that they can't detach themselves from their past, that there is a beginning to their history," said Omotosho Eluyemi, a senior commission official.

The commission urges those who do not want to keep sacred objects to take them to local chiefs. It also seeks stricter enforcement of the law prohibiting export of artifacts.

Okwy Achor, an archaeologist, fears the government's response has been weak compared to the fervor of the evangelists.

Achina is part of the region where famed Igbo-Ukwu bronzes were discovered in a private compound in 1958. Older and more sophisticated than the better-known Benin and Ife bronzes, the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes date to between the 8th and 10th centuries and provide proof that a unique form of metallurgy evolved in Nigeria.

While Achina had few Christians 60 years ago, they now constitute more than 95 percent, says Emmanuel Eze, a retired teacher.

"There is hardly anyone around these days to speak up for tradition," said Eze.

I can just feel the love.

Well, they should not just be telling them to destroy them outright. They should just seek to separate them completly from their idols, and like store it in a closet or something. Or give it to a museum. However, they do need to let go of these idolistic materials, but destroying their culture isn't the way to do it.

Well, they should not just be telling them to destroy them outright. They should just seek to separate them completly from their idols, and like store it in a closet or something. Or give it to a museum. However, they do need to let go of these idolistic materials, but destroying their culture isn't the way to do it.

Idolistic materials such as crucifixes perhaps?

"The new faithful found comfort in preachers like evangelist Uma Ukpai who promised material success was next to godliness."

Pfft... I severly dislike pentecostals, particularily the prosperity gospel which is just utter and complete tripe.

Idolistic materials such as crucifixes perhaps?

Isn't that a Orthodox belief?

Isn't that a Orthodox belief?

and perhaps Catholics?

and perhaps Catholics?

Can't be them, they have rosary [sp?] or w/e that is.

Well, they should not just be telling them to destroy them outright. They should just seek to separate them completly from their idols, and like store it in a closet or something. Or give it to a museum. However, they do need to let go of these idolistic materials, but destroying their culture isn't the way to do it.

If I recall correctly destroying them and the culture is in fact pretty close to what the Old Testament asks of you... not to mention a fine Christian tradition.
Which from their point of view of course makes sense.

If I recall correctly destroying them and the culture is in fact pretty close to what the Old Testament asks of you... not to mention a fine Christian tradition.
Which from their point of view of course makes sense.

Yeah, but we don't follow the Old Testament, now do we? Otherwise your children would be stoned to death if they were disrespectful. The NT is the new covenant with God.

*sigh*

Hoooray Christianity.... :rolleyes:

*sigh*

Hoooray Christianity.... :rolleyes:

And naturally these people's actions represent all of Christendom. :rolleyes:

And naturally these people's actions represent all of Christendom. :rolleyes:

Yes.

Yes.

No.

No.

lol, I deliberately didn't put a :rolleyes: next to my comment so you wouldn't know whether I was being sarcastic or not, and so I could see your reaction.

Instead of trying to convert everyone to Christianity, why not actually...help them? Help them with AIDs/HIV, help them with their famine by providing food, showing them how to work the land, fly in some organic substance they can put into the soil, teach them about ground water and wells etc. Why don't they actually try to help them instead of trying to win more converts?

Instead of trying to convert everyone to Christianity, why not actually...help them? Help them with AIDs/HIV, help them with their famine by providing food, showing them how to work the land, fly in some organic substance they can put into the soil, teach them about ground water and wells etc. Why don't they actually try to help them instead of trying to win more converts?

Because if they pray hard enough, God will help them, of course!

Seriously, though, I'm sure some Christian aid organizations are actively helping, we just get to hear about the nutbars more often.

Instead of trying to convert everyone to Christianity, why not actually...help them? Help them with AIDs/HIV, help them with their famine by providing food, showing them how to work the land, fly in some organic substance they can put into the soil, teach them about ground water and wells etc. Why don't they actually try to help them instead of trying to win more converts?

That might be something Christ would do.

Because if they pray hard enough, God will help them, of course!

Leela: "Oh no, the monks! We forgot to let them out of the laundry room."
Fry: "Aww, do we have to? I mean, they're monks. I'm sure their God will let them out, or at least give them more shoes to eat."
Bender: "Fat chance! You can't count on God for jack, he pretty much told me so himself!"
...
Fry: "Is there anything religion can do to help me find my friend?"
Pastor: "Well, we could join together in prayer."
Fry: "Uh huh, but is there anything useful we can do?"
Pastor: "No."


:D

Can't be them, they have rosary [sp?] or w/e that is.

Those *and* the graven image crucifixes, yes.
http://extremecatholic.blogspot.com/images/Patricia-Heaton-with-cross-794x1200.jpg
...in good measure? :eek:

\ teach them about ground water and wells etc. Do you mean "witching" ? :p
http://skepdic.com/dowsing.html
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/ohman.gif

Brilliant. Just brilliant. I wonder why RO didn't yet post in here saying that Christianity has left the middle ages far behind, and it's Islam we should really be worrying about?

Seriously, the damage evangelical Christians do to this day is just horrendous.

That might be something Christ would do.

I look at some of the things the nutjob Christians do, and think "What would Jesus do? Not that."

I look at some of the things the nutjob Christians do, and think "What would Jesus do? Not that."

Ah, but if you told them I can guarantee they'd have a bible quote handy to justify what they're doing.

That's the good thing about this "holy book", you can justify rape, abuse, incest, arson, war, genocide, infanticide, murder and all sorts of hatred. All with just one book.

Ah, but if you told them I can guarantee they'd have a bible quote handy to justify what they're doing.

That's the good thing about this "holy book", you can justify rape, abuse, incest, arson, war, genocide, infanticide, murder and all sorts of hatred. All with just one book.

And then they would probably continue their assertion that GOD IS LOVE.

Or JESUS IS LOVE. They seem more confused by the concept of the Trinity than I do; I've lost count of how many times I have seen "Jesus created the universe" written somewhere...

and perhaps Catholics?
Of course my Australian friend does not know it but the crucifix is also a catholic symbol (the rosary is not a symbol, it is a tool for prayer).

(I said 'of course' because I have heard that Australia is pretty apathetic towards religion and they have really low church attendance rates)

Ah, but if you told them I can guarantee they'd have a bible quote handy to justify what they're doing.

That's the good thing about this "holy book", you can justify rape, abuse, incest, arson, war, genocide, infanticide, murder and all sorts of hatred. All with just one book.

The old testament is a laugh a minute ain't it?

Nice to see that people haven't learned a damn thing from the last couple thousand years of history.

Is this like the Christian version of dynamiting the Buddha of Bamiyan?

Well, they should not just be telling them to destroy them outright. They should just seek to separate them completly from their idols, and like store it in a closet or something. Or give it to a museum. However, they do need to let go of these idolistic materials, but destroying their culture isn't the way to do it.

Why? What harm can the possibly be doing?

I can't help but feel that religion really is the albatross about the neck of the modern world.

Ah, but if you told them I can guarantee they'd have a bible quote handy to justify what they're doing.

That's the good thing about this "holy book", you can justify rape, abuse, incest, arson, war, genocide, infanticide, murder and all sorts of hatred. All with just one book.

Two books(OT and NT). Be fair. :p

Two books(OT and NT). Be fair. :p

Don't you mean 66 books

Two books(OT and NT). Be fair. :p

Oh, come on now. That's like claiming that The Lord of the Rings is three books...

Two books(OT and NT). Be fair. :p
We would be better off defining them as two different books, then we can tell who the crazy bigots are (OT) and who the socially compassionate spiritual people are (NT).

The Nigerians have been lugging those stupid traditions and ancestor's around for millenia, and look what the practice has gotten them. If I were a rural African, I'd be shopping around for a new set of divine coat tails to ride as well.

Thus we are, once again, shown what religion liberates in some people: The need to make the world not to God's image, but to THEIR image. And as they go on about how evil the "other" (always, always the "other", never "ours") religions are, they just show their struggle to win over their own insecurities by forcing people to conform and obey. To this end, inquisitions are made, people kill to this day and act against things such as gay marriage only - and I mean only - out of a need to make those different from them suffer and pay for it. In blood if possible, in social stigma if necessary. Watch, gods, and weep over what has been done in Your name by some.

Africans are destroying their former ancestor worship and animist objects because they find Christianity is not working to alleviate their problems. Priests tell them to destroy the artifacts because it shows they aren't fully committed fully.

God, I hate religion.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070904/ap_on_re_af/new_religion_vs_old_gods)

Would you care for some cheese with that whine?

Ah, but if you told them I can guarantee they'd have a bible quote handy to justify what they're doing.

That's the good thing about this "holy book", you can justify rape, abuse, incest, arson, war, genocide, infanticide, murder and all sorts of hatred. All with just one book.

Anything can be justified if enough words and meanings are contorted. Does that make it right?

That might be something Christ would do.

Let's not make any brash assumptions ;)

Instead of trying to convert everyone to Christianity, why not actually...help them? Help them with AIDs/HIV, help them with their famine by providing food, showing them how to work the land, fly in some organic substance they can put into the soil, teach them about ground water and wells etc. Why don't they actually try to help them instead of trying to win more converts?

Plenty are. Many of the groups there are Christian as well. However, simply because people are working for the betterment of a society does not a better society make. The people have to be willing to accept, adapt, and perpetuate the things they have been taught--without that, there is nothing.

Let's not make any brash assumptions ;)

Oh, let's :D

Oh, come on now. That's like claiming that The Lord of the Rings is three books...

It's not.


It's three movies. =D



But srsly, I like how everytime Christianity fucks up in something, the advocates are like "That's not ALL of Christianity, though", or some other minimalist argument therein. The priests are raping boys - that's not all of Christianity, though! The religious nutjobs are bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors - that's not all of Christianity, though! The conservative religious right is the reason Bush was elected - that's not all of Christianity, though! Yet ANOTHER hardnosed fundamentalist Christian senator was tossed out of the closet, exposed as someone with homosexual tendencies! That's not all of Christianity, though! But this other religious right Senator guy was sexing up young boys and blamed it on alcohol! That's not all of Christianity, though! There's a pissed off Muslim and he's yelling at the American audience through the camera, spouting obscenities and threats! HO SHIT ISLAM'S SUCH A FUCKING VIOLENT RELIGION WITH VIOLENT PEOPLE.

I lol on the outside, but I cry on the inside.

It's not.


It's three movies. =D



But srsly, I like how everytime Christianity fucks up in something, the advocates are like "That's not ALL of Christianity, though", or some other minimalist argument therein. The priests are raping boys - that's not all of Christianity, though! The religious nutjobs are bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors - that's not all of Christianity, though! The conservative religious right is the reason Bush was elected - that's not all of Christianity, though! Yet ANOTHER hardnosed fundamentalist Christian senator was tossed out of the closet, exposed as someone with homosexual tendencies! That's not all of Christianity, though! But this other religious right Senator guy was sexing up young boys and blamed it on alcohol! That's not all of Christianity, though! There's a pissed off Muslim and he's yelling at the American audience through the camera, spouting obscenities and threats! HO SHIT ISLAM'S SUCH A FUCKING VIOLENT RELIGION WITH VIOLENT PEOPLE.

I lol on the outside, but I cry on the inside.

And just what do you think they say of your examples within Islamic countries? Welcome to the wonderful world of religious conflict.

I look at some of the things the nutjob Christians do, and think "What would Jesus do? Yep, that."

Fixed

That might be something Christ would do.

to bad christianity has nothing to do with christ or his teachings.

to bad christianity has nothing to do with christ or his teachings.

They're generally too busy worshiping him to actually read what he had to say.

Yeah, but we don't follow the Old Testament, now do we? Otherwise your children would be stoned to death if they were disrespectful. The NT is the new covenant with God.

As long as that interpretation suits the Christians in question.
Of course, looking at history we see a rather different picture. Censorship, destruction, burning of cultural artifacts... very OT.

They're generally too busy worshiping him to actually read what he had to say.

to bad actually, I think if he wasn't that religious I could really have liked him. (who doesn't want a friend that can turn water in wine :eek:;)) No, really, it's quite sad that the message of compassion and being nice to each other got lost amongst the bullshit about god and sin and worship and stuff.

to bad actually, I think if he wasn't that religious I could really have liked him. (who doesn't want a friend that can turn water in wine :eek:;)) No, really, it's quite sad that the message of compassion and being nice to each other got lost amongst the bullshit about god and sin and worship and stuff.

Jesus wasn't all nice. Nicer than his daddy, definately, but some of his teachings are... not that good.

Jesus wasn't all nice. Nicer than his daddy, definately, but some of his teachings are... not that good.

Probably, I don't know a lot about his teachings, what I know about them (mainly because i went to 'catholic' schools) sounds quite nice though, but it's quite obvious why they didn't teach about the bad stuff. Could you give some examples?

I also kind of liked the style of his facial hair (at least how he's most often depicted)

Yeah, but we don't follow the Old Testament, now do we? ... The NT is the new covenant with God.The NT is only a continuation of the OT. Cf. Jesu "transfiguration" (and the appearance of Moses and Elijah), which is the symbol of said continuity. There is no break in doctrine.

Probably, I don't know a lot about his teachings, what I know about them (mainly because i went to 'catholic' schools) sounds quite nice though, but it's quite obvious why they didn't teach about the bad stuff. Could you give some examples?

I could - but I believe having you reading the book for yourself (completely, not just isolated sections) is a better idea. The whole picture is far more interesting than some quotes and summaries.

Yeah, but we don't follow the Old Testament, now do we? Otherwise your children would be stoned to death if they were disrespectful. The NT is the new covenant with God.That's something that's never made sense to me. It's the same God, right? But at one point in history killing unbelievers, stoning adultresses, people who gather firewood on the sabbath is cool. Then it's not. Why did god change his mind? Did he get therapy or something? Cuz the old testament god is a petty, vindictive, bloodthirsty asshole.

That's something that's never made sense to me. It's the same God, right? But at one point in history killing unbelievers, stoning adultresses, people who gather firewood on the sabbath is cool. Then it's not. Why did god change his mind? Did he get therapy or something? Cuz the old testament god is a petty, vindictive, bloodthirsty asshole.
God didn't write the Bible. I did.
Seriously though, no matter what your belief, I don't think anyone on earth believes God actually wrote the Old Testament, so any irregularities are chalked up to human error.

Africans are destroying their former ancestor worship and animist objects because they find Christianity is not working to alleviate their problems. Priests tell them to destroy the artifacts because it shows they aren't fully committed fully.

God, I hate religion.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070904/ap_on_re_af/new_religion_vs_old_gods)
I don't understand. Are you upset because Africans are no longer animist, or because they are destroying ancestor's artifacts?

Rotten thread title. Jesus didn't make those ex-animists destroy their artifacts. People doing various degrees of service or disservice to Jesus' teachings did.

Rotten thread title. Jesus didn't make those ex-animists destroy their artifacts. People doing various degrees of service or disservice to Jesus' teachings did.
It's towards the back, where Jesus tells his apostles all the "secret sins" they are allowed to commit.

It's towards the back, where Jesus tells his apostles all the "secret sins" they are allowed to commit.

That must be the same part where the Catholics got the power to make up all kinds of stuff that was never in the Bible but became doctrine anyway. Neat. the Qur'an has a similar section that explains Shariya law.

It's almost like you get to the end of Revelation and there's one more page where, in tiny print, it says:

FNORD.

That's something that's never made sense to me. It's the same God, right? But at one point in history killing unbelievers, stoning adultresses, people who gather firewood on the sabbath is cool. Then it's not. Why did god change his mind? Did he get therapy or something? Cuz the old testament god is a petty, vindictive, bloodthirsty asshole.


The OT proves that man can't make it into heaven by works. In other words a human can never be good enough and never stop sinning. The NT is where God gave his son, and his son said there is no way a man can get into heaven based on works so God put me (Christ) here that way your sins can be forgiven, written off. The OT is sadly still followed be Christians when it has nothing to do with Christianity, It should be looked at as a piece of history that teaches mans imperfections. The NT God is a God of Grace and forgiveness.

It urks me to see the ignorance of people and what they believe, most hear what a preacher or pastor ect.. says and don't research things for themselves.

Also I have a friend who was a missionary in Thailand and he met a man who started being "haunted" by a spirit after he started studying the NT. He talked to the man and after some serious discussion they decided that maybe it was spirits in some skulls that the man had for other religious reasons. After the destroyed the skulls the man was no longer "haunted."

That must be the same part where the Catholics got the power to make up all kinds of stuff that was never in the Bible but became doctrine anyway.
Hmmmm.... (That is an angry "hmm", not an interested one).

It's almost like you get to the end of Revelation and there's one more page where, in tiny print, it says:

FNORD.
[Right before Genesis, in tiny print] All characters in this book are fictional, and any relation to real people or deities, living or dead, is coincidental.

Hmmmm.... (That is an angry "hmm", not an interested one).

How can you be angry and not interested in some way? Have I offended you? Apologies (albeit tiny, placating ones, bereft of sincerity and loaded with mollification) if I did.

[Right before Genesis, in tiny print] All characters in this book are fictional, and any relation to real people or deities, living or dead, is coincidental.

Nice!

I don't understand. Are you upset because Africans are no longer animist, or because they are destroying ancestor's artifacts?

I don't know about the OP but I'm a little upset about both. Coming to someone when they're at one of the lowest points of their life and trying to get them to convert to your religion is CULT behavior (in the wacky nut job "don't drink the kool aid" definition of cult, not the sociological definition).

Christians don't like it when converted regions revert back to their pre-Christian religions.

But I still have high hopes for Norway.

Before Jesus came to Nigeria, your average Nigerian had a silly religion and some valuable antique nicknacks. Now they just have a silly religion.

God, I hate religion.

But you hate irony more?

Before Jesus came to Nigeria, your average Nigerian had a silly religion and some valuable antique nicknacks. Now they just have a silly religion.

It's a tad of an oversimplification, but nice one! :D

That's something that's never made sense to me. It's the same God, right? But at one point in history killing unbelievers, stoning adultresses, people who gather firewood on the sabbath is cool. Then it's not. Why did god change his mind? Did he get therapy or something? Cuz the old testament god is a petty, vindictive, bloodthirsty asshole.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/Thread.jpg
He might've just had his mind mildly changed by the "irresistable force meets immovable object" resolution:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/iron_chariots/jg01_19a.html
http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/iron_chariots/jg01_19b.html
http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/iron_chariots/jg01_19c.html

That must be the same part where the Catholics got the power to make up all kinds of stuff that was never in the Bible but became doctrine anyway. Neat. the Qur'an has a similar section that explains Shariya law.

It's almost like you get to the end of Revelation and there's one more page where, in tiny print, it says:

FNORD.

...you mean there *isn't* one? :eek:

Well, i can think of many in the drawers of various motels that end that way now.
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/611.gif

[Right before Genesis, in tiny print] All characters in this book are fictional, and any relation to real people or deities, living or dead, is coincidental.

Nah. That would be considered insulting.
How about:

"This is a human made translation of a several texts from a larger series, carefully selected by politicians with an agenda. Some aspects of the original may have been lost"

Isn't that a Orthodox belief?


I think you'll find that we abolished iconoclasm at the 7th Ecumenical Council in 787AD, so perhaps you're just a teensy bit behind the times.

religion is just over rated anyway



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cuz really, religion is just a way to control people
i dont mind it, just dont force it on other people
someone said(an article, i think) that the US is a predominitly christian country, and if christians do all this crap, no wonder millions of people hate the US
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