NationStates Jolt Archive

Actually it has the potential to be a functioning human.

No, that would be an unfertile egg. Once conception takes place, the embryo becomes a living organism. We know this for a scientific fact because changes begin to take place, which do not take place outside of living organisms.



I missed the punch line.

Is that like

A non-living human fetus is dead.... FACT!

Also not true. Miscarriages happen all the time.

No punch line, just a fact. Yes, like a non-living human fetus is dead.
Miscarriages are a prime example.


A state of being? Bit of a stretch....

No, not a stretch, again, just simple fact and common sense. A human being is a human organism in the state of being.



Actually your opinion is an Ad hominem.

Actually, my opinion is one which you can't refute because it is true.


You have me curious about "your science" let me back track and see "your science."

It's not "MY" science, it is Science in general. It belongs to us all, even when we deny and refute it.

Yes, because an anti-choice position is so entirely irrational that
And killing human children became rational when again??

lolol I can never get over the level of virulence and venom, with which pro-aborts attack any who dare dissent.


there is no real possible justification other than "god said not to".
No.

Anti-abortion =/= religious
Pro-life =/= religious

No, not a stretch, again, just simple fact and common sense. A human being is a human organism in the state of being.


So, a dead person is a human has-been?


Methinks that coming up with your own definitions for words or phrases falls way, way, WAY outside the boundaries of an honest and factual presentation of a position.

Same thing, except we call it Math.

Yeah, I've already addressed that grammatical inaccuracy.

lolol I can never get over the level of virulence and venom, with which pro-aborts attack any who dare dissent.


lolol I can never get over the level of virulence and venom, with which anti-choice attack any who dare dissent.


Let's face it. These comments are both accurate (although I will say that using both virulence and venom is somewhat redundant).

So, a dead person is a human has-been?


Methinks that coming up with your own definitions for words or phrases falls way, way, WAY outside the boundaries of an honest and factual presentation of a position.

I didn't come up with the definition of being, or define the state of being. I simply posted it on a message board, and had morons and idiots breaking their necks to disagree with it. I'm sorry logic escapes you.

How do you think we can ever resolve this issue, if you people refuse to be intellectually honest? As long as you hold to this "notion" that embryo's and fetuses are something other than living organisms, we have a dilemma. It's like trying to establish guidelines for clean water with people who refuse to accept that H2O is water!

I didn't come up with the definition of being, or define the state of being. I simply posted it on a message board, and had morons and idiots breaking their necks to disagree with it. I'm sorry logic escapes you.

How do you think we can ever resolve this issue, if you people refuse to be intellectually honest? As long as you hold to this "notion" that embryo's and fetuses are something other than living organisms, we have a dilemma. It's like trying to establish guidelines for clean water with people who refuse to accept that H2O is water!

Ad hominem. Fail.

Ad hominem. Fail.

Oh c'mon. It's the entirety of this human future-has-been's debating tactic.

Gotta give 'em an A for consistency at the very least.....

But I've had enough juvenile name-calling from the same person for the second night in a row. If I wanted to listen to that I'd hang out at my children's schoolyards.

Well tell me what isn't fact, Mr. Maturity?

A human fetus is human... FACT!
A living human fetus is alive.... FACT!
It is in a state of being.... FACT!

What the hell is "my opinion" about this? It seems to me, "my opinion" is common sense and logic, and you want to differ from that. This is fine, let's just put you on record disagreeing with common sense and logic! I have no problem with that! My points have been well made, and backed with plenty of credible information, your points... well, don't even make sense, and defy logic and science.

Let's talk about logic and common sense.
You have had explained patiently to you that calling people idiots is flaming and against the rules: fact.

You have just flamed a moderator: fact.

YOU have stated that calling people idiots is not flaming if it's true: fact.
Our rules state that is not the case and it is not acceptable: fact.
You have exhibited a pattern of this behavior with absolutely no visible intent to change it: fact.

You have just gotten a three day vacation for refusing to abide by the standards of behavior that everyone on the board is expected to abide by and which were pointed out to you specifically. Fact.

Hopefully when you return you will have absorbed what debate and civil behavior constitutes. Namecalling ain't it.

I didn't come up with the definition of being, or define the state of being. I simply posted it on a message board, and had morons and idiots breaking their necks to disagree with it. I'm sorry logic escapes you.

A word to the wise, insults won't get you taken seriously. Frankly, they'll get you dismissed more quickly than people who chew with their mouth open.

I know I automatically subtract approximately 30 IQ points from such an individual. Is it just me?

How do you think we can ever resolve this issue, if you people refuse to be intellectually honest? As long as you hold to this "notion" that embryo's and fetuses are something other than living organisms, we have a dilemma. It's like trying to establish guidelines for clean water with people who refuse to accept that H2O is water!

Well, if we're talking intellectually, then first of all, a plural does not possess an apostrophe, so that's 'embryos'.

Second of all, while they may be living organisms, that does not make them viable human beings. Unless you wish to argue that lettuce is human.

Just a thought.

EDIT: Ah well, too late. Let's just hope he/she learns.

Dixieanna, despite your low opinion of the intellectual attainments and maturity of your fellow posters, most of them have been able to understand the rules of this site and discuss an emotive topic without breaking them.

You, despite having them pointed out to you individually, haven't. Take a break and read them through again.

Everybody else, calm down. Before you post again, ask yourself if it hasn't already been said. Frequently. At length.

EDITED for a when-mods-collide moment. Goodonyer, Kat.

You know, given how dreaded this topic (among others) is, it's a little surprising to see just how many people are willing to jump into the breach.

Perhaps, along with all those basic Maths (yes, Maths, not Math, after all, it's Mathematics, and abbreviations of plurals tend to incorporate the plural), Science and English requirements, we should encourage people to learn how to refrain from requiring the last word!

Just a thought.

Oh, wait, Maths, Science and English are UK basics. What are the US ones?

Ebonics, weapons maintenance, and Intelligent Design!

:D

Rather more like, 4 years of English in high school
4 years of Math in High School
Biology, Chemistry, Physics and Earth Science
4 Years of History (World, US, and Government)
At least a year of language
Art
Music

But please, do keep on banging on. It's quite amusing.

Rather more like, 4 years of English in high school
4 years of Math in High School
Biology, Chemistry, Physics and Earth Science
4 Years of History (World, US, and Government)
At least a year of language
Art
Music

But please, do keep on banging on. It's quite amusing.

Mine was an honest question, as there are practically no colleges here in the UK that will accept a student without at least a C grade in English, Science and Maths.
I was wondering if the situation was the same in the US.

Unless, of course, you're stating that all US students need to have passed at least English, Maths, Science (various), history, (insert language), art and music in order to progress to a higher level of education?

Or perhaps you're just being facetious.

To graduate high school, you have to pass all those...so, yes, that is the case. Except for the language, I think. That varies a lot, doesn't it? I went to a private high school where we had to have three years of foreign language (doesn't matter what language, or if you switch between...just three years), but my understanding that most public schools require only one year, at most.

However, you can always get a GED and get into community college and then transfer to your standard college. Or go to technical school or the like. As poor as our required education is in the US, there are more options available for higher education than near any other place in the world, I'd bet.

Unless, of course, you're stating that all US students need to have passed at least English, Maths, Science (various), history, (insert language), art and music in order to progress to a higher level of education?


Pretty much, yeah.

Pretty much, yeah.


Whoop, forget it, nevermind. Get on with the anti/pro bashing!

I'll be good..

This topic needs moar humor. And possibly some Rule 34 but I doubt the mods would approve.

Fact: Abortion is the gut bustingly hilarious procedure in which a soon-to-be ugly baby is instead destroyed before it has a chance to wreak havoc on the world.

Fact: Someone who is considered pro-life is someone who is against abortion in any and all cases. They believe that a zygote has all the rights of a grown adult human, unless of course that adult is a pregnant woman, who has no right to decide what happens in her body.

Fact: When it comes to "when life begins", a poll of aborted babies concluded that none of them minded being aborted too much. Their response was similar to that of a pool of semen, who were also not very distressed at not getting a chance at being persons.

Fact: Someone who is considered pro-choice is a cold-blooded, possibly reptilian, baby murderer. They want to kill all babies, regardless of how old. It was abortionists (now considered a bonerfied religion) that planned and carried out WTC and are clearly the source of all evil in the world, right next to tobacco comapnies and Microsoft.

Fact: Everyone is pro-life and pro-choice, you're either for or against abortion. Stop trying to push buttons with those terms. If you're for abortion then just say it, don't try to hide from the fact that you support terminating pregnancies by calling it choice to make it eaiser to sleep at night. If you're against abortion then admit that you don't think too highly of women and that you don't trust people to live their lives how they see fit, that you think it's okay to control others so long as you think you know what's good for them more than they do and stop trying to characterize your side as kind and humane because you're no better than who you oppose, just for different reasons.

And now I'd like to end things on a high note so...
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/7f/Abortxxx.gif
Abortion, lol.

The obligatory "dead babies joke"
Q: How long does it take to paint a room with dead babies?
A: Depends how hard you throw em.

No, that would be an unfertile egg. Once conception takes place, the embryo becomes a living organism. We know this for a scientific fact because changes begin to take place, which do not take place outside of living organisms.

Conception != human. You have the blueprint in place. You have the potential for another human. Many things can happen such as a miscarriage.

Hmmm I guess a miscarriage means a murder charge against a woman eh?

No punch line, just a fact. Yes, like a non-living human fetus is dead.
Miscarriages are a prime example.

How about a fetus without a head? Is that human? It has happened and the one case I know of required an abortion as the body would not reject it.

No, not a stretch, again, just simple fact and common sense. A human being is a human organism in the state of being.

A philosophical question is not simply a fact. Oh and that is another Ad hominem.

Actually, my opinion is one which you can't refute because it is true.
I don't have to argue the fact your opinion was indeed an Ad hominem.

It's not "MY" science, it is Science in general. It belongs to us all, even when we deny and refute it.

What exactly is your background? I doubt you are a scientist. Demp is one and I noticed you didn't reply to her(at least in the few pages I back tracked). My thing is primatology. So what exactly is yours?

Let's talk about logic and common sense.
You have had explained patiently to you that calling people idiots is flaming and against the rules: fact.

You have just flamed a moderator: fact.

YOU have stated that calling people idiots is not flaming if it's true: fact.
Our rules state that is not the case and it is not acceptable: fact.
You have exhibited a pattern of this behavior with absolutely no visible intent to change it: fact.

You have just gotten a three day vacation for refusing to abide by the standards of behavior that everyone on the board is expected to abide by and which were pointed out to you specifically. Fact.

Hopefully when you return you will have absorbed what debate and civil behavior constitutes. Namecalling ain't it.

*raises hand*

Mrs. Katganistan? May I be excused now?

Just as valid as it was on the 12th post.

Ya. I apologize about that.


I was looking to cause a stir, knew an abortion thread would do it, and thought up a suitably controversial argument (IMO).

Of course, I'm not sure how many actually read the argument.


Anywho, mass apologies for bringing this Dixieanna into being.

If given the choice, I might have aborted this thread.

If given the choice, I might have aborted this thread.

That pun is groan-worthy. Well done.

.... the mother is eating them when they are born. Do you not think that us rats have the worse solution? But it seems the Vet is saying that we rats are being too small for abortion.

Love,
Snuffles of Rodentica

That pun is groan-worthy. Well done.

Thank you.

Sometimes I pull out these rather horrendous ones which I am absolutely proud of.

There is Christianity, and there are Christians. Although the names are similar their beliefs are nothing alike.

last time i checked an unborn child never murderd anyone! last time i check an unborn child never rallyed for jihad against the united states! the death penalty does not kill innocent babies! the war's aim is to destroy terrorism not kill innocent babies!

Really, 'innocent' and 'guilty' cannot apply to an unborn as the necessary experience, choices and sentience have not yet happened/developed. My point was about pro-lifers talking about the sanctity of life being above everyone else and then support wars in which thousands of real innocent people will be killed as 'collateral'.

your view is very sterotypical of christians.

This makes me laugh in it's silliness.

and its fetus not foetus! and a bit of history for all you pro choice people fetus means little one in greek. so when you say "its not human its just a fetus" you are condridicting your selves!

Either word is correct. They mean the same. Foetus/fetus is a subset of human used to describe a stage during it's pre-natal development. However, it is not yet a human being.

I don't understand why pro-choice people are all against killing guilty people, but are fine with killing innocent ones.

As I said above, applying 'innocent' to an unborn doesn't really make any sense. The argument of pro-choice generally questions the definition of personhood.

And I've never got how people can call themselves pacifists, or say that they are anti-war, or come out against any type of violence, even for selfdefence, or be so opposed to capital punishment. Yet at the same time, turn around and proudly proclaim that they are pro-abortion/choice.

Answered above.

Perhaps, along with all those basic Maths (yes, Maths, not Math, after all, it's Mathematics, and abbreviations of plurals tend to incorporate the plural)

Another who understands basic rules of plurality! :)

If given the choice, I might have aborted this thread.

LMAO :D

And ability to choose, I may add, is all-important. I'll be back later today, must go to work.

Pro-choice users on here keep repeating this argument, but it's not legit. What this analogy is missing is the consent to sex. So, a more accurate analogy would be ''if you give your neighbor your kidney, and they put it in them through surgery, and a few weeks later you sneak up one night and rip it out of them, your entitled to give it back, or at least, go to jail.'

Repeat after me: sexual intercourse while may being consensual is not a contractual agreement to carry a pregnancy to term.

A woman does not give up her reproductive rights just because she has sex. If she must give up those rights then so must the man who is a key part of the sexual intercourse equation. He must give up any rights he has in deciding his own sexual reproduction if the woman must if the sexual intercourse resulted in pregnancy.

Consent to sex does equal possible responsibility of a child.

Fine, if it does then the man must also accept responsibility.

Ah, but there are those who just leave the woman. There are those who deny the child is theirs. There are those who force the woman to terminate the pregnancy.

I'm not saying all men fit into the above. There are those who do want the child.

No it equals the possibility of a child not the possible responsibility of one. If it equaled that one wouldn't be able to give them up for adoption because they would be responsible for it.

Ooooo! Good argument.

I have a dumb question.

There is a pattern between poverty and abortion.

Why not spend the effort and money to reduce poverty?

Because that would mean raising taxes. We don't like to help people. But telling them how to live their lives is easier and not to mention cheaper.

And one way of being responsible is aborting if one is not physically, mentally, or financially able to support said child.

Do I hear an echo in here? :)

A human fetus is human... FACT!

But it's not a human being. It's only a "being" once it has developed enough to survive outside of the womb as any other living human.

A living human fetus is alive.... FACT!

It is not alive until it can breath on its own outside of the womb. It may be a living organism, but a parasite is also a living organism but it relies on its host for its livelihood.

It is in a state of being.... FACT!

In a state of being dependant on the woman.

* SNIP *

'Hiss' sayeth Kat the clawed. :)

the reason Christians don't like abortions is because it says in psalms "you knew me in the womb, knew me before my parents knew i existed, or something along those lines" basically, its murder. it IS a human being, because GOD made them. besides, children are a gift from God. are you going to refuse a gift from God, that's like saying you have no soul

the reason Christians don't like abortions is because it says in psalms "you knew me in the womb, knew me before my parents knew i existed, or something along those lines" basically, its murder. it IS a human being, because GOD made them. besides, children are a gift from God. are you going to refuse a gift from God, that's like saying you have no soul

ahhh it's a troll, run!

the reason Christians don't like abortions is because it says in psalms "you knew me in the womb, knew me before my parents knew i existed, or something along those lines" basically, its murder. it IS a human being, because GOD made them. besides, children are a gift from God. are you going to refuse a gift from God, that's like saying you have no soul

Yes but there are plenty of other passages in which God does approve of the killing of the unborn baby.

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (Numbers 31:15-17)

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. (Hosea 9:14)

Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. (Hosea 9:16)

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. (Hosea 13:16)

the reason Christians don't like abortions is because it says in psalms "you knew me in the womb, knew me before my parents knew i existed, or something along those lines" basically, its murder. it IS a human being, because GOD made them. besides, children are a gift from God. are you going to refuse a gift from God, that's like saying you have no soul

Of course, to be fair, the Bible also orders priests to administer a poison to women accused of adultery. In a woman who was pregnant, this poison would have induced an abortion. The Bible also exacts a much lesser price for harm caused to a gestating fetus (a fine) than for harm caused to a born human being (an eye for an eye). And Christ himself does not seem to have ever spoken on the matter.

Personally, I place a great deal of value on an embryo/fetus and the person it might become, but I cannot say that my viewpoint is absolutely backed up by Scripture.

the reason Christians don't like abortions is because it says in psalms "you knew me in the womb, knew me before my parents knew i existed, or something along those lines" basically, its murder. it IS a human being, because GOD made them. besides, children are a gift from God. are you going to refuse a gift from God, that's like saying you have no soul

Which verse? And... which translation?

Which verse? And... which translation?

Psalm 139:13,15

139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/139.html

This is the King James version, I believe. If we want to use this as Scriptural support for an anti-abortion position, it seems we would have to take it literally.

Apparently fetuses are made deep in the earth, if we are to take this as a literal translation.

Free will is also a gift of god. I should know.

Psalm 139:13,15

139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/139.html

This is the King James version, I believe. If we want to use this as Scriptural support for an anti-abortion position, it seems we would have to take it literally.

Apparently fetuses are made deep in the earth, if we are to take this as a literal translation.

Free will is also a gift of god. I should know.

I wondered if that was the verse... I was finding it hard to reconcile something that basically says 'you control me, and fashioned me in the womb'... with that "knew me before my parents knew i existed" thing.