NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello people

This is my first post on this site whoohoo! Lets start off with a question.

I have recently become rather interested in politics and stuff related to that. I have to admit though that playing Deus Ex 1 kinda sparked my interest :P Anyway, I also found out that it's possible to study "politicologie" (political science) in a university nearby. I am currently 17 years old and I live in the Netherlands. I watch the news a couple of times a week and always try to follow politics and stuff. I especially find American Politics fascinating. I always ask myself questions like, who REALLY is in power? How do you make people vote for you? What's up with the secret CIA flights to europe? What exactly was up with the Cold War? I also really like comparing the views and ideals of political parties here in the Netherlands.

Anyway, now that you know the stuff that interests me here's my question. I seriously feel like I know too little about subjects like these. I haven't had history in school for some years now, and the history that I used to get was rather like "around 1200AD there were knights in castles." I also sometimes hear lots of things about seemingly interesting persons like Machiavelli and Marx. I don't know many others I'm afraid. But I'd like to.

Do you have suggestions for books or internet sites to read? I suppose I should read about history stuff as well.

Oh, and I am considering going to study Political Science or Law when I get out of High School I'm not sure yet. Law is much more popular and it is said that it's a better choice because I can still do lots of things with it?

"The Prince" and "The Communist Manifesto" is a great start...
Also, try Plato's "The Republic," Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations," and John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty." I guess pretty much anything by George Orwell would be good too.

My suggestion: Run away as fast as you can! Poli Sci sucks you in, and makes you a boring old foogie!

Since you're dutch, try to get the old comic book series of 'Van nul tot nu' they tell you much more what really happened during our history :)

Oh, and read a quality newspaper (not the free ones) and especially read the background articles. And maybe even subscribe to a weekly/monthly magazine like 'Elsevier' or several others, or read them in the library. They give good background, albeit a bit biased sometimes :)

Diplomacy by Henry Kissinger is a great read, and has a lot of well informed historical and current political information.

Also, the New York Times is a great source too :D

I especially find American Politics fascinating.
Oh man, don't do this to yourself. I live here, I don't have a choice (I am not a PoliSci guy, I just live here so I have to pay attention)


Oh, and I am considering going to study Political Science or Law when I get out of High School I'm not sure yet. Law is much more popular and it is said that it's a better choice because I can still do lots of things with it?

If it works there the way it works here, and I haven't the foggiest, you can study PoliSci as an undergrad and law as a graduate, and that this is pretty common.

You'll actually get some good stuff here and not because we're all geniuses, but actually because some people know their shit and some people talk out their asses and even sometimes those are the same people (and sometimes they're not) and you'll develop some critical skills sorting through it. (or you won't and you'll end up on the hook, but you can't learn to swim without getting in the water.)

If you still are a glutton for the American political system this is also a great place for you because even though it's an international forum predictably enough we run around like we own the place so there are always plenty of partisan bickering going on here.

If you go into political science, only use it as a supplemental major, in the same way philosophy is commonly used. It, and philosophy, are great fields of study, but really have limited (and by limited I mean almost no) career opportunities after graduation (assuming you actually want to make use of your major and not just teach high school). This is from someone who was (well, still is) double majoring in both poli. sci. and philosophy but has had to add a third major, econ, so as not to be unemployed after graduation. ;)

Oh, and my recommendation as regards reading? I'd say find a political philosophy anthology of the sort they tend to use in university courses and read through it at your leisure. They usually have a good selection of writers and little biographical introductions to place each piece into historical and cultural context. Usually they'll include excerpts from Plato's Republic, Machiavelli and Marx, of course. You'll also get stuff from Nozick(sp?), Rousseau and, likely, Nietzsche, as well as whatever others the publisher sees fit, I'd expect.

Anyway, I recommend, at the very least, picking up a minor in both political science and philosophy, no matter what. The former will fulfill your interest in the field and the latter is something everyone who studies at university should be required to attain to graduate. =p

If it works there the way it works here, and I haven't the foggiest, you can study PoliSci as an undergrad and law as a graduate, and that this is pretty common.Oddly enough, I've been told that political science isn't actually good to study if you want to get into law. The most common undergrads for law are, apparently, engineering and math, with philosophy majors tending to be some of the best performing. I've no way to back that up, though, it's just hearsay. But it kind of makes sense if you think about it. Political science courses don't seem to lend themselves to critical thinking, really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ

school house rock!

I especially find American Politics fascinating. I always ask myself questions like, who REALLY is in power?

Supposedly the people.

How do you make people vote for you?

By being a better bull shit artist than your opponet :D

What's up with the secret CIA flights to europe?

That's heavy and to be responded by better qualified individuals than those here on NSG

What exactly was up with the Cold War?

Two political ideologies fighting for supremacy over the other. Goes well with history classes.

I also really like comparing the views and ideals of political parties here in the Netherlands.

Very good.

Anyway, now that you know the stuff that interests me here's my question. I seriously feel like I know too little about subjects like these. I haven't had history in school for some years now, and the history that I used to get was rather like "around 1200AD there were knights in castles." I also sometimes hear lots of things about seemingly interesting persons like Machiavelli and Marx. I don't know many others I'm afraid. But I'd like to.

If the uni you are looking at offers history, get a double degree in both history and government. They both go hand in hand. That is what I did when I attended college.

Do you have suggestions for books or internet sites to read? I suppose I should read about history stuff as well.

Some of the books listed are very good. I do not have them in my library as yet but I am hoping one day I will. As to internet sites, Any of the major news outlets are good to get an understanding or to follow what is going on.

Oh, and I am considering going to study Political Science or Law when I get out of High School I'm not sure yet. Law is much more popular and it is said that it's a better choice because I can still do lots of things with it?

That is indeed true but government degrees helps those incharge make better decisions. Especially if they have a history degree to go with it.

If you're interested in American politics, I'd suggest Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" series-these arguments have plagued us since our foundation, with no solutions in sight our corrupt and greedy leaders will accept. Paine always struck a chord with me, however-I like his style and some of his ideas-his heart's in the right place.

http://www.accesswave.ca/~thomson/ackbar.jpg

My thoughts on PoliSci? Don't bother.

"The Prince" and "The Communist Manifesto" is a great start...
Also, try Plato's "The Republic," Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations," and John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty." I guess pretty much anything by George Orwell would be good too.

Very good suggestions and may I make some other recommendations.

Jean Jacques Rousseau The Social Contract
Von Clausewitz On War
Aristotle The Politics

The Prince is my favorite. Hobbs' Leviathan is alright as well. The Republic is great by Plato, very good. I haven't read On Liberty but I have heard good things. There are some good "text" books too such as Theory and Methods in Political Science by David Marsh and Gerry Stoker that can offer a lot of insight.

I started off in college as a computer science major but graduated with a B.A. in political science. There's a lot to study there. You can do comparative politics, theory, international relations, etc. Revolutionary studies are pretty good too because you can learn a lot about them, especially how certain conditions in certain states don't necessarily lead to revolutions and there is no one universal revolutionary principle that holds true to all of them.

Also whether you study law or political science, save your text books, they'll prove useful for you if you want to work in that field, especially graduate studies.

Before reading or studying anything else...

Read, understand, and follow this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Method) first.

Indeed. Machiavelli was the first one who used history to prove his theories. Political scientists have been doing it ever since. Hobbs just looked at his theories and said they were right because he said so, etc., which you'll find a lot of here on NSG (:)). The Federalist Papers are pretty good too.

Political science courses don't seem to lend themselves to critical thinking, really.

The constant stream of headaches I've experienced in various seminar classes I've taken in the subject disagree with you. :)

"The Prince" and "The Communist Manifesto" is a great start...
Also, try Plato's "The Republic," Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations," and John Stuart Mill's "On Liberty." I guess pretty much anything by George Orwell would be good too.Like hell did you read all of those, all the way through. Whilst all interesting books, it's generally better to buy a commentary of the text first or one which already has commentary attached. Helps ease you into which bits your more interested in read, and which you want to save for when you've really got nothing better to do.

I do find what Adam Smith has to say in "The Theory of Moral Sentiments" more interesting than the "The Wealth of Nations". And "Discourses on Livy" is supposed to be more interesting than "The Prince". However, I can't vouch for this as I haven't got around to reading it yet. (guess what the lecturers are like at my university)

Someone me mentioned "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. Now that I do like.

Also check the course thoroughly though. There is a great difference in teaching styles. Some are more theory based, some are more case study based. That is, one university will teach you the theory and then introduce case studies as examples of the theory, the other will start with case studies and show the various ways of interpreting the situation, and thus expose you to the theory. You should go on taster sessions and see which you like the best.

Oh, and steer clear of any department that unduly dwells on the capacity of its research department. This basically means that the department has hired lots of good researchers, who might be well known, but do not particularly want to spend much time teaching.

Indeed. Machiavelli was the first one who used history to prove his theories. Political scientists have been doing it ever since. Hobbs just looked at his theories and said they were right because he said so, etc., which you'll find a lot of here on NSG (:)). The Federalist Papers are pretty good too.

For all the crap I've taken from white-coated elitists because I study Political "Science" (*snicker*), I feel it is a very important point to stress.

If we claim the title of "science", we will be held to a high standard, and rightfully so. We should be doing our best to meet it.

Now, if only we can get the K-12 "social studies" to introduce the scientific method from the very beginning. :headbang: I think that's the main reason why people snicker at Political Science to begin with. Our education system doesn't produce genuine social science until the university level. Most people will never study social science at the university level, so all they have a memory of is "social studies" nonsense they were forced through in elementary and high school.

The curriculum needs an upgrade! Convert 'em while they're young. :D

There are some good "text" books too such as Theory and Methods in Political Science by David Marsh and Gerry Stoker that can offer a lot of insight.*mutters about David Marsh and Colin Hay* Both of whom are big names, but I'm not too fond of the way they teach. *mutters about their profiteering too, both of which have plenty of their own books on their recommended reading lists*

Unless you run into a university like mine where this is not the case :DWhere are you at?

Oh, and steer clear of any department that unduly dwells on the capacity of its research department. This basically means that the department has hired lots of good researchers, who might be well known, but do not particularly want to spend much time teaching.


Unless you run into a university like mine where this is not the case :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ

school house rock!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bHsytxHYh8&mode=related&search=

Corrected for accuracy. :D

Actually political science is a science but a science that doesn't use mathematics or formulas in its equations. Political science uses history as its data and current events as well. History tells a story about what has happened but political science explains the why and the how and can show future trends and future events because history too often repeats itself. Scientific method, for political science, is vastly different than what is taught for it and our scientific method should remain independent of that which is already taught because it is something that I believe is better learned in college than high school. High school should focus on history and what not, get the history taught to the students. Then, in college, begin the serious analysis of history through political science.

That book by Marsh was the textbook for my POL301 class, "Theory and Method," which, next to the thesis class, was the most important class in our political science program at Iona College. I'm proud to say I walked away from the class with an "A" and though you don't know Dr. Schmidt, the teacher, to receive an "A" in his class meant only one thing, you didn't just earn it, you understood it and could show it. His finals were essays but they weren't simple essay's. They were essay's that required thought, analysis, and a lot of careful wording. I think only two or three of us got an "A" in that class but we sure as hell could write a hundred times better and argue a hundred times better from taking that class.

... a science that doesn't use mathematics or formulas in its equations.


If we exclude statistics, anyway.

But still, a general concept that people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around, unfortunately.


Scientific method, for political science, is vastly different than what is taught for it and our scientific method should remain independent of that which is already taught because it is something that I believe is better learned in college than high school. High school should focus on history and what not, get the history taught to the students. Then, in college, begin the serious analysis of history through political science.


It's my observation that the ridicule of political science I've already noted tends to trickle its way down into high school. I would assume that this might discourage at least some people from even trying to pursue the subject at the university/college level to begin with. If this does happen, it should be combated at the earliest possible point.

Those of us who choose to pursue polticial science at the university level were probably aware of the scientific method as applied to social studies to begin with. (or, like me, were introduced to it at a very low level, like community college, which is just barely a step above high school anyway).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ

school house rock!

Yay! :)

Political Science is neither political nor science. Discuss.

If we exclude statistics, anyway.

But still, a general concept that people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around, unfortunately.



It's my observation that the ridicule of political science I've already noted tends to trickle its way down into high school. I would assume that this might discourage at least some people from even trying to pursue the subject at the university/college level to begin with. If this does happen, it should be combated at the earliest possible point.

Those of us who choose to pursue polticial science at the university level were probably aware of the scientific method as applied to social studies to begin with. (or, like me, were introduced to it at a very low level, like community college, which is just barely a step above high school anyway).

Yeah I forgot stats, good lord I never took a stats class (for obvious reason LOL). My friend did though but I would have rather the theory end than the stats end. Scientific method not until community college? Wow that's bad. I was introduced to it back in junior high and then throughout high school I was learning it for this and that.

Yeah I forgot stats, good lord I never took a stats class (for obvious reason LOL). My friend did though but I would have rather the theory end than the stats end. Scientific method not until community college? Wow that's bad. I was introduced to it back in junior high and then throughout high school I was learning it for this and that.

I got the scientific method in Jr. and High School all the time...in chemistry, physics, anatomy and physiology. Never in history, government & civics, economics.

I got the scientific method in Jr. and High School all the time...in chemistry, physics, anatomy and physiology. Never in history, government & civics, economics.

Oh you were referring strictly to that, alright yeah I didn't see it until history classes in high school but only in limited form, much more than you'd see otherwise though but not as much as in college, which is for obvious purposes.

Welcome!

You have definitely found a good site for things political!

If you feel like reading some fiction with lots of political undertones, check out some sci-fi stuff. It may be dressed up with space ships and extratresstrials, but there can be really fascinating commentary on politics.

Drowning World by Alan Dean Foster is all about the Cold War, for example.

In one of my politics classes (I did a BA in politics, and then an MA in International Politics/Trade), Ursula LeGuin's The Dispossessed was required reading. Lots of politics there.

If you do not like science fiction and prefer something historical (With all those old castles and whatnot), I highly recommend Alamut by Vladimir Bartol. It was written in the 1930s, but it really relates to the intersection of religion and politics today.

Brave New World and 1984 have some excellent political theories and ideas in them that will really give you a great sci-fi edge. There are a lot of them out there.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and replies! I've noted all the books that were mentioned and will try to get some, the ones that got much praise will be my priority. These are "The Prince", "The Republic", "On Liberty", "The Politics" and "Common Sense". I'll see which of these I can get, of course also looking for the other ones that were suggested! But the ones I just named seem to be the real well-known ones.

Welcome!

You have definitely found a good site for things political!

If you feel like reading some fiction with lots of political undertones, check out some sci-fi stuff. It may be dressed up with space ships and extratresstrials, but there can be really fascinating commentary on politics.

Drowning World by Alan Dean Foster is all about the Cold War, for example.

In one of my politics classes (I did a BA in politics, and then an MA in International Politics/Trade), Ursula LeGuin's The Dispossessed was required reading. Lots of politics there.

If you do not like science fiction and prefer something historical (With all those old castles and whatnot), I highly recommend Alamut by Vladimir Bartol. It was written in the 1930s, but it really relates to the intersection of religion and politics today.

Sorry but I wasn't exactely looking for Political Science-FICTION... I meant Political Science... like, the study, y'know?

Oh and please don't turn this thread into a war about whether or not it should be allowed to call this subject a science :rolleyes: ;)

thanks all keep the replies coming and i'll post later when I found some of those books! :D

Fiction is an often used and useful tool for political scientists and social philosophers. Consider fiction books as very large thought experiments. Hell, Republic is pretty much a Dungeon Master's Guide to Socrates' psychotic society. There are a good many fiction books out there that are extremely useful to the study of theory craft and anyone who says differently is talking nonsense, pure and simple. :)

Fiction is an often used and useful tool for political scientists and social philosophers. Consider fiction books as very large thought experiments. Hell, Republic is pretty much a Dungeon Master's Guide to Socrates' psychotic society. There are a good many fiction books out there that are extremely useful to the study of theory craft and anyone who says differently is talking nonsense, pure and simple. :)

Yes don't discount fiction. Within fiction books you will find some of the more revolutionary political thoughts and some of the more impressive ideas. Often political science books can be dull and difficult to read on the first pass but through fiction you can get a better understanding of a philosophy or theory. Some of the best political science lessons you'll learn may very well be through fiction. One of my favorites, along with Brave New World is Lord of the Flies, which has a GREAT deal of political philosophy to it.

Lord of The Rings...

Sorry but I wasn't exactely looking for Political Science-FICTION... I meant Political Science... like, the study, y'know?
Righto, no worries.
Just try not to discount the usefulness of fiction for analysing politics, that is all. Hypothetical explorations of political systems, as you might find in Plato, Machiavelli, or Marx are fiction, after all (At least until someone puts them into practice). Modern works, be they science-fiction or mainstream literature, can do the same thing. You might find them interesting after you read up on the more standard politics texts.

Lord of The Rings...I thought Lord of the Rings was all about ganja smuggling and gang warfare, not politics.

My suggestion: Run away as fast as you can! Poli Sci sucks you in, and makes you a boring old foogie!

The mojo is strong with this one.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and replies! I've noted all the books that were mentioned and will try to get some, the ones that got much praise will be my priority. These are "The Prince", "The Republic", "On Liberty", "The Politics" and "Common Sense". I'll see which of these I can get, of course also looking for the other ones that were suggested! But the ones I just named seem to be the real well-known ones.

I've got a couple ones for you, if you get the chance. I'm a Poli Sci major currently, and these where what got me interested in the field.

A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. Obviously, any poli sci student needs a good, complete understanding of history. A People's History is a great book because it covers the issues that many history books gloss over, and presents another side of the issue. It should be viewed as a complement to the mainstream study of history, not a complete alternative.

The Social Contract by Jean-Jacques Rousseau. This one's a landmark in the development of western political thought, and is quite complementary to Mill's On Liberty and Paine's Common Sense.

Really all you need to know is that everything you learned in Deus Ex is, for the most part, true.



... Seriously.

I thought Lord of the Rings was all about ganja smuggling and gang warfare, not politics.

Much of a muchness really though... ;)

I can't really recommend any books for you to read, cos tastes vary, but you could do what I did when I turned 25 and became politically aware (shockingly late, I know. But I was in the army). I found me a study guide for the best uni pol. sci. department in Finland and read all the books in that guide in a year's time.

Then I accidentally went through that university program and got my masters. Now I only have to figure out what to do with my degree...

I'm currently in my last semester of political science at university in Australia. I've been doing it as a sub-major for my Bachelor of Journalism. I pretty much chose it within 30 seconds, and had no idea what it was exactly.

First, let me suggest this: watch The West Wing. It is seriously a great tool for understanding political motivations, and will improve your thinking greatly.

As somebody touched on earlier, depending on what university you attend, you may be in for a hell of a lot of theories: behaviourism, comparative analysis, discourse, different sorts of feminism, institutionalism, normative theories, rational choice, Marxism, post-Marxism, neo-Marxism, good governance etc. Of course, any subject you study will have a lot of different theories and methods to remember, but I am just stressing that it isn't necessarily just chatting about what's in the news (although that does happen).

As to whether or not you should do poli-sci... Do you want to become an academic as your career? Because poli-sci honestly doesn't give you that many career choices. You could get a job in policy, but it is probably more likely you'd go on to be a lecturer yourself after doing a PhD or something (you'd get to be called doctor but, so that might be worth it). You may want to do that though, in which case go for it, and try your heart out.

Honestly, I know you're still very young, but what sort of career are you after? Because if you would actually like to be active in politics and policy it would probably be a better idea to do law, and if you can, do a few poli-sci subjects to supplement it.

<snip>
<snip>

Agreed, but I understand the apprehension at believing it to be any sort of real science. Because of my old definitions of science from high school, it wasn't until some point in my second year that I actually began to believe it was a form of science.

*Colin Hay*

Colin Hay teaches?
He was just up here doing his "Man at Work" Tour or something like that.
He had a good bit on Scrubs, too.

I've never understood the claim that majoring in Poli Sci meant working in academics. There are plenty of jobs in Government, or in campaign work, or as an actual politician.

And, as in all things, just because you majored in Poli Sci doesn't mean you have to work in politics.

I've never understood the claim that majoring in Poli Sci meant working in academics. There are plenty of jobs in Government, or in campaign work, or as an actual politician.


The problem is that studying political science full time is probably the quickest way to become completely disgusted with government, campaigns, and actual politicians. Ideally, a job should not interrupt one's ability to sleep at night.

I think of it like this: a student of political science studies politics in much the same way a student of medicine studies a disease. But no medical student aspires to be a disease when he graduates.

The problem is that studying political science full time is probably the quickest way to become completely disgusted with government, campaigns, and actual politicians. Ideally, a job should not interrupt one's ability to sleep at night.

I think of it like this: a student of political science studies politics in much the same way a student of medicine studies a disease. But no medical student aspires to be a disease when he graduates.

I would totally aspire to be a disease. That'd kick ass.

I've never understood the claim that majoring in Poli Sci meant working in academics. There are plenty of jobs in Government, or in campaign work, or as an actual politician.

And, as in all things, just because you majored in Poli Sci doesn't mean you have to work in politics.

From my understanding, aside from learning where to go, graduating with just a political science degree doesn't open up options in government or campaign work anymore than any other degree. Actually, majoring in communications or marketing helps more if you want to do campaign work, and if you want to go into politics, it's better to go into law (granted, you can do pol. sci. as an undergrad and move on to law school, but you're better off taking pre-law classes and majoring in math and philosophy). I guess the last option is political journalism; however, you're better off actually majoring in journalism, in that case, as papers tend to look for that rather than knowledge and skill. Unless you plan on staying at a university for the rest of your life, political science is really a supplemental major, unfortunately.

Yes don't discount fiction. Within fiction books you will find some of the more revolutionary political thoughts and some of the more impressive ideas. Often political science books can be dull and difficult to read on the first pass but through fiction you can get a better understanding of a philosophy or theory. Some of the best political science lessons you'll learn may very well be through fiction. One of my favorites, along with Brave New World is Lord of the Flies, which has a GREAT deal of political philosophy to it.
Alright, sorry for dissing the fiction books. :p It is just this prejudice-like thing of mine but I guess it’s wrong. But it’s just that I have this idea I’d rather be studying reality instead of fiction. Like I’m not gonna play Sim City to learn how to be a mayor.
Really all you need to know is that everything you learned in Deus Ex is, for the most part, true.



... Seriously.
You might be kidding, but I kinda feel like some of those things could be true indeed. Of course not literally like its in the game, but similar things in different situations. And I find that stuff really interesting, though not as interesting as to be a fanatical believer in conspiracy theories… but it’s gotta do with politics & law, I guess, cuz if not, what else?
I can't really recommend any books for you to read, cos tastes vary, but you could do what I did when I turned 25 and became politically aware (shockingly late, I know. But I was in the army). I found me a study guide for the best uni pol. sci. department in Finland and read all the books in that guide in a year's time.

Then I accidentally went through that university program and got my masters. Now I only have to figure out what to do with my degree...

Glad that you replied! You "accidentally" graduated with political science, are you implying it was a mistake to do so? Is it hard to find something to do with your degree? Because finding a good job is what I want of course. And I've heard quite a bit of criticism about alot of social studies and how they won't get you a job. Especially my father. He's a huge fan of music and all, but wouldnt recommend me to go into a conservatorium and learn to be a violinist (sp?) It won't earn shit. He kinda thinks the same about studies like philosophy and I don't know much about political science but it seems a bit the same like philosophy in the way of study material (lots of thinking and talking? instead of studying really clear, concrete stuff like bacteria or how to make fighter jets. Which will be sure to get you a very decent job.)

As to whether or not you should do poli-sci... Do you want to become an academic as your career? Because poli-sci honestly doesn't give you that many career choices. You could get a job in policy, but it is probably more likely you'd go on to be a lecturer yourself after doing a PhD or something (you'd get to be called doctor but, so that might be worth it). You may want to do that though, in which case go for it, and try your heart out.

Honestly, I know you're still very young, but what sort of career are you after? Because if you would actually like to be active in politics and policy it would probably be a better idea to do law, and if you can, do a few poli-sci subjects to supplement it.

Exactely what I fear. I am beginning to know what the study is about, and i really like it, but I don't know what jobs it will get me. I fear that the study is very interesting and all, yet of no importance in the "job market" and that I could archieve the same effect by studying law while watching the elections, yet get a much better job. I know for certain that I don't want to be teaching in any way. I would like a job in an organisation, preferably a big and international one. the Government (not nessisarily the Dutch one) come to mind, or the world bank, or big companies... ---though I guess being the future USA dictator/president's spin doctor is cool, too!---
But, yeah. Like some people here have said, I'm just not sure whether to take political science as my primary study and whether or not to take any additional ones. Hell I don't even know for sure how that whole system works and how many studies I can do! Or if there is a huge disadvantage in doing a study as a minor instead of major or whatever it's called. But for example, doing Law as a primary study with Political Science as a secondary one is interesting as well, but I Don't know if that's even possible or if there is a certain branch within the Poli-Sci study which specializes in "political laws" or something, thus making it a better choice than doing 2 studies at the same time.

You might be kidding, but I kinda feel like some of those things could be true indeed. Of course not literally like its in the game, but similar things in different situations. And I find that stuff really interesting, though not as interesting as to be a fanatical believer in conspiracy theories… but it’s gotta do with politics & law, I guess, cuz if not, what else?

No, I'm dead serious. Lots of these books being listed here had passages strewn about in Deus Ex.

Everything from Rockafeller and the illuminati to the goals of counter-terrorism are 80 to 90% true.

Course, DX was set in the future, so we'll see.

...Glad that you replied! You "accidentally" graduated with political science, are you implying it was a mistake to do so? Is it hard to find something to do with your degree? Because finding a good job is what I want of course. And I've heard quite a bit of criticism about alot of social studies and how they won't get you a job. Especially my father. He's a huge fan of music and all, but wouldnt recommend me to go into a conservatorium and learn to be a violinist (sp?) It won't earn shit. He kinda thinks the same about studies like philosophy and I don't know much about political science but it seems a bit the same like philosophy in the way of study material (lots of thinking and talking? instead of studying really clear, concrete stuff like bacteria or how to make fighter jets. Which will be sure to get you a very decent job.)...
If a good-paying job is your goal, you might be better off going to a trade school- :-P Most of my political studies pals have either filtered into unrelated jobs or used their politics degrees as building blocks for other academic study (Some do indeed want to be professors, but others went onto more professional programmes). Several of the folks I know are now in law school, for example.

For me, doing a degree in politics was just a means to the end of doing my MA in International Affairs (That itself was a means to increase my chances of getting into the foreign affairs/international trade government department). I convocated last November, and am slowly working my way through Canada's insanely long government hiring process (They literally take months between stages!). While that goes on I am working at the records centre of a company, managing client files, processing the services we do, and tracking data on it all. At this moment, having a BA in politics and an MA in international trade has secured me the mundane job largely based around sorting paper (I expect that to change when the government thing goes through, but in all likelihood I would not start there unil January). To sum up, a degree in politics is not totally useless, and is definitely good for enabling one to critically assess the world and come up with innovative solutions to problems, but those qualities seem to end up being used on non-politically-focused occupations just as often as they are used in political ones.

Alright, sorry for dissing the fiction books. :p It is just this prejudice-like thing of mine but I guess it’s wrong. But it’s just that I have this idea I’d rather be studying reality instead of fiction. Like I’m not gonna play Sim City to learn how to be a mayor.

You might be kidding, but I kinda feel like some of those things could be true indeed. Of course not literally like its in the game, but similar things in different situations. And I find that stuff really interesting, though not as interesting as to be a fanatical believer in conspiracy theories… but it’s gotta do with politics & law, I guess, cuz if not, what else?


Glad that you replied! You "accidentally" graduated with political science, are you implying it was a mistake to do so? Is it hard to find something to do with your degree? Because finding a good job is what I want of course. And I've heard quite a bit of criticism about alot of social studies and how they won't get you a job. Especially my father. He's a huge fan of music and all, but wouldnt recommend me to go into a conservatorium and learn to be a violinist (sp?) It won't earn shit. He kinda thinks the same about studies like philosophy and I don't know much about political science but it seems a bit the same like philosophy in the way of study material (lots of thinking and talking? instead of studying really clear, concrete stuff like bacteria or how to make fighter jets. Which will be sure to get you a very decent job.)

Exactely what I fear. I am beginning to know what the study is about, and i really like it, but I don't know what jobs it will get me. I fear that the study is very interesting and all, yet of no importance in the "job market" and that I could archieve the same effect by studying law while watching the elections, yet get a much better job. I know for certain that I don't want to be teaching in any way. I would like a job in an organisation, preferably a big and international one. the Government (not nessisarily the Dutch one) come to mind, or the world bank, or big companies... ---though I guess being the future USA dictator/president's spin doctor is cool, too!---
But, yeah. Like some people here have said, I'm just not sure whether to take political science as my primary study and whether or not to take any additional ones. Hell I don't even know for sure how that whole system works and how many studies I can do! Or if there is a huge disadvantage in doing a study as a minor instead of major or whatever it's called. But for example, doing Law as a primary study with Political Science as a secondary one is interesting as well, but I Don't know if that's even possible or if there is a certain branch within the Poli-Sci study which specializes in "political laws" or something, thus making it a better choice than doing 2 studies at the same time.

As I happen to live in the same country and study political science there, I will give you this advise:

Stay away from public administration... (also known as bestuurskunde) it is foul and evil... :eek:

As I happen to live in the same country and study political science there, I will give you this advise:

Stay away from public administration... (also known as bestuurskunde) it is foul and evil... :eek:

Hahaha is that part of 'Politicologie' study?

Does it involve being... bureaucratic!? *le gasp*

(that is, sitting on a chair in 'het gemeentehuis' resting your head on your desk and snoring loudly?)

The Sim City 4 "Ministry of Bureaucracy" building comes to mind... it just sits there in your city soaking up government money and when you click it you hear people snoring. LOL

Okay but seriously did you like the study? I'm looking into Radbout Universiteit Nijmegen. They say that their political science study is the best of the country.

I am STILL unconvinced about the jobs I could get with the study though. Still sounds much like I'll have to study something in addition to it in order to have any chance for people to want to hire me.

I will write them (the university that is) and ask information about this subject...