NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/ap_on_re_eu/switzerland_deportation_campaign

Punishment for people AND THEIR FAMILIES? Okay, but only if it applies to nationals as well, that way, if one national does it, his family gets tossed in prison too. How the heck do they not threaten to revoke their membership of the UN if they pull human-rights-destroying crap like this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/ap_on_re_eu/switzerland_deportation_campaign

Punishment for people AND THEIR FAMILIES? Okay, but only if it applies to nationals as well, that way, if one national does it, his family gets tossed in prison too. How the heck do they not threaten to revoke their membership of the EU if they pull human-rights-destroying crap like this?
They aren't in the EU, and the EFTA (which they are in) doesn't involve itself with politics. I just hope our government doesn't get any ideas: the idea of human rights, or rights in general, thanks to the tabloids, is already unpopular enough here. And then people moan about authoritarian govrnment. :rolleyes:

They aren't in the EU, and the EFTA (which they are in) doesn't involve itself with politics. I just hope our government doesn't get any ideas: the idea of human rights, or rights in general, thanks to the tabloids, is already unpopular enough here. And then people moan about authoritarian govrnment. :rolleyes:

Well, they ARE members of the UN, aren't they? I was hoping the Universal Declaration of Human Rights had something about not punishing someone for a crime someone else committed?

From my experiences there (and the people I talked to), most Swiss do not want to become part of the EU. Only the French-speaking western cantons have a large portion of their popultaton in favor of joining the EU.

From my experiences there (and the people I talked to), most Swiss do not want to become part of the EU. Only the French-speaking western cantons have a large portion of their popultaton in favor of joining the EU.

Well, the point is, if Swiss is supposed to be a part of the UN even, they might want to stop suggesting gross human rights violations. This is the kind of thing one would expect from Burma, not Switzerland.

I have a hard time imagining that the law would be in line with the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, and would most probably be stricken down by the ECtHR.

Also, Switzerland is not a member of the EU.

Well, they ARE members of the UN, aren't they? I was hoping the Universal Declaration of Human Rights had something about not punishing someone for a crime someone else committed?
The Universal Decaration of Human Rights is an advisory declaration, so it's non-binding.

Anyway, I agree with the party's idea that deporting convicted immigrants should be a matter of policy, but targeting the families is gonig a bit too far.

I have a hard time imagining that the law would be in line with the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, and would most probably be stricken down by the ECtHR.

Also, Switzerland is not a member of the EU.

I hope you're right, and I edited it to UN. :p

North Korea is still in the UN. Is there even procedure to eject a nation from the UN?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13016449']The Universal Decaration of Human Rights is an advisory declaration, so it's non-binding.

There's gotta be some law these nutcases are proposing to infringe. We're talking about knowingly punishing the innocent here.

North Korea is still in the UN. Is there even procedure to eject a nation from the UN?

1- I was hoping there is.

2- I was hoping Switzerland would be better than North Korea.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13016449']targeting the families is gonig a bit too far.

A bit? :p

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13016449']The Universal Decaration of Human Rights is an advisory declaration, so it's non-binding.

The ECHR is, though, and while Switzerland has not signed and ratified Protocol 4 that prohibits collective expulsion of foreigners, there are protections in the convention against punishments for crimes one has not committed.

The ECHR is, though, and while Switzerland has not signed and ratified Protocol 4 that prohibits collective expulsion of foreigners, there are protections in the convention against punishments for crimes one has not committed.
Ah, I didn't realise that. Now I know that the ECHR is binding, but what would happened if Switzerland just ignored it? Would there be any way of really enforcing it?

2- I was hoping Switzerland would be better than North Korea.


Switzerland has always been an odd little nation, stuck between 2 (possibly 3) major powers. Besides, I don't think they can get all the Cantons to agree to this one. They can hardly get the routine stuff passed. No way, IMHO, that they pass something this controversial.

1- I was hoping there is.

Alas, no UN mods in the real UN.

Switzerland has always been an odd little nation, stuck between 2 (possibly 3) major powers. Besides, I don't think they can get all the Cantons to agree to this one. They can hardly get the routine stuff passed. No way, IMHO, that they pass something this controversial.


Alas, no UN mods in the real UN.

ALL cantons have to agree for this piece of shit to pass?

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13016460']Ah, I didn't realise that. Now I know that the ECHR is binding, but what would happened if Switzerland just ignored it? Would there be any way of really enforcing it?

States do not ignore the ECHR's rulings - legally they cannot. Their own justice systems have no choice but to uphold the rulings. However, if the unthinkable were to happen and Switzerland were to ignore a ruling, it could be thrown out of the Council of Europe and would also find that the EU does not look lightly upon non-compliance. Sure, the EU itself can only directly punish members of the EU for non-compliance with the Convention, but the EU has very strong diplomatic and economic ways of "pressuring" Switzerland, which is completely surrounded on all sides by the EU and quite dependent on it...

ALL cantons have to agree for this piece of shit to pass?

I think that's how national law gets passed. There has to be a majority of the population in favor, and all of the cantons have to be in favor, as well.

I'm no expert on Swiss law, so someone feel free to correct me.

Let's hope TSI and Fass are correct, lest Switzerland becomes a dystopia.

Yes they are. they finally joined in 2003.

Switzerland is not a member of the EU. You are wrong.

I have a hard time imagining that the law would be in line with the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, and would most probably be stricken down by the ECtHR.

Also, Switzerland is not a member of the EU.

Yes they are. they finally joined in 2003.

Superb. That has cheered me up actually.

No, you are wrong.



http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0303/un.html

The United NATIONS, Maine...

Great, this will stop families dobbing in member of their own family in Switzerland because it means they'll throw themselves in gaol.

The United NATIONS, Maine...

Shit. I need to learn to read better. Sorry.

Great, this will stop families dobbing in member of their own family in Switzerland because it means they'll throw themselves in gaol.

You are amusing because in addition to your grammar being nigh incomprehensible, you're insane. Unless you're being sarcastic.

Superb. That has cheered me up actually.

The fact that it'll most likely be struck down? Yeah, it cheered me up too. Word to the wise: The world will never be the dystopia certain xenophobic Nazis want it to be.

You are amusing because in addition to your grammar being nigh incomprehensible, you're insane. Unless you're being sarcastic.

I believe he means that this law will encourage families not to turn over their offspring if they were criminals because that would be implicating themselves as well.

I believe he means that this law will encourage families not to turn over their offspring if they were criminals because that would be implicating themselves as well.

And that's good because? o_O

Well, they ARE members of the UN, aren't they? I was hoping the Universal Declaration of Human Rights had something about not punishing someone for a crime someone else committed?
Well, there are a lot of countries in the UN that don't exactly toe the Universal Declaration of Human Rights line. I don't know whether Switzerland has ratified the European Convention on Human rights - if they have, then the courts in Strasbourg have the legal power to strike it down, as they rightly should if adopted.

Superb. That has cheered me up actually.
Yeah. Perhaps we could have a "toff tax" to pay for it if it were adopted in Britain.

And that's good because? o_O

The "Great" I believe, is sarcasm. It would be in line with the context of the post.

Yeah. Perhaps we could have a "toff tax" to pay for it if it were adopted in Britain.

Oh do fuck off. You know as well as I do I'm not well off by any means; however, no doubt you object to anybody who aspires to be, or is, anything better than "average".

Enjoy Big Brother last night did we?

Well, they ARE members of the UN, aren't they? I was hoping the Universal Declaration of Human Rights had something about not punishing someone for a crime someone else committed?

The problem with the UDHR is that it is not a treaty. All it is is a declaration. I will say this that the UDHR laid the framework for actual human right treaties.

As to the story at hand, very very interesting to say the least.

North Korea is still in the UN. Is there even procedure to eject a nation from the UN?

Yes there is.

Yeah. Perhaps we could have an "intellectual snob tax" to pay for it if it were adopted in Britain.

Fixed just for you Chris

Switzerland has always been an odd little nation, stuck between 2 (possibly 3) major powers. Besides, I don't think they can get all the Cantons to agree to this one. They can hardly get the routine stuff passed. No way, IMHO, that they pass something this controversial.


Alas, no UN mods in the real UN.

Chapter 2 Articles 5 and 6:

Article 5--A member of the United Nations against which preventive or enforcement action has been taken by the Security Council may be suspended from the exercise of the rights and privileges of membership by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council. The exercise of these rights and privileges may be restored by the Security Council.

Article 6--A Member of the United nations which has persistently violated the Principles contained in the present Charter may be expelled from the Organization by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.

After reading the link, this is not a law yet.

After reading the link, this is not a law yet.

Thought I had made that clear, sorry. But that it's even being CONCEIVED is appalling.

Thought I had made that clear, sorry. But that it's even being CONCEIVED is appalling.

That I can agree with you on.

And for us to agree on something one can see how bad it is... :p

LOL!! Ok. I will buy you a drink for that one.

Actually, if one reads the article (and assumes that it accurately reflects what's really going on, of course; I've read enough articles about what's going on in the Netherlands to wonder just which Netherlands they're talking about because what was written certainly wasn't going on in the nation I'm living in) what is being proposed is probably already what's on the books, but never enforced.

The law talks about expelling the families who's children have been convicted of certain crimes. There are two things going on:

1. Are those crimes ones in which expulsion from Switzerland is a possibility? Most nations have laws allowing for that, or for revoking any citizenship gained.

2. What is the legal responsibilities of parents regarding the actions of any underaged children? It could be that parents are legally responsible for what the children do (not unusual in most nations anyway - that's why parents can be forced to pay for damage the kids do to some else's property) and thus, legally, the parents would/could be the focus of any legal sanctions. In this case: possible expulsion from the nation.

Also - even if the parents aren't being punished for the actions of the children, the child probably could be ordered out of the nation. However, that, itself, is most likely against one or more treaties. Expelling the underaged children without sending the parents as well would then be illegal. This, coupled with any legal responsibility the parents have for the deeds and misdeeds of the children, lends itself to expelling the parents along with the child.

Let's face facts: living permits and even being granted nationality aren't without any strings. You aren't a natural born citizen of that nation, and are granted a right which is different from being born with one. Living in Switzerland isn't a human right that everyone is born with - so it's one that Switzerland can grant, and thus take back.

If the wording/formulation is causing problems, then the rules regarding living permits/naturalization can always be re-written to include good parenting elements that would mean you need to prevent your children from committing violent crimes, drug crimes, or benefit frauds (the examples sited in the Yahoo summary).

Or - just keep the kid in jail until his or her 18th birthday and then send him off without the family.

That I can agree with you on.

And for us to agree on something one can see how bad it is... :p

To me, this proposed law reeks of a "legally" systematic purification of the Swiss people, a modern day Swiss Inquisition, if you will.


This should serve as a wake up call to the rest of the world......

LOL!! Ok. I will buy you a drink for that one.

I'll have a coke. (I don't drink.) :p

I'll have a coke. (I don't drink.) :p

Good. It's a vile habit when abused. It makes a man weak.

*hands you a coke*

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/ap_on_re_eu/switzerland_deportation_campaign

Punishment for people AND THEIR FAMILIES? Okay, but only if it applies to nationals as well, that way, if one national does it, his family gets tossed in prison too. How the heck do they not threaten to revoke their membership of the UN if they pull human-rights-destroying crap like this?

The world is going down and down and down...

Good. It's a vile habit when abused. It makes a man weak.

*hands you a coke*

*Chugs it in about 10 seconds*

The problem is, I DO have a habit, soft drinks. :p